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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Tao on June 28, 2010, 16:25:19 pm

Title: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 28, 2010, 16:25:19 pm
Hello All,

I hope you don't mind my posting this again in hopes to get some new eyes and new feedback. I'm going bonkers and no longer have a plan or solution. Thanks in advance for your help!

My DD is 14.5 months old. About 3 weeks ago I got off work for summer vacation and while my DH is usually with her during the day, I am now home with her and this is when it all started. I started putting her down for naps and she started refusing them, standing in the corner of her crib, screaming and crying. Since WIWO worked in the past, I started doing that but she would still just stand for an hour for each nap until I went in to get her only to try nap again later.

Before I got off work when things went smoothly:
5:30 Wake
9:40-1010 Nap
2:00-3:15 Nap
6:30 BT

Then, she got a virus and for the 4 days she was ill, she slept really well and her A times were very low.

6:00 Wake
9:30-10:00 Nap
1:30-2:50 Nap
6:30 BT

Then, she became better and her A times went back up again and then p.m. nap refusal began leaving her with 30 minutes of nap for the entire day and earlier EWs. For the past week, this is what we've been working with:

4:45 Wake (She's been waking earlier and earlier each day. This morning she woke at 4:30 a.m.)
9:45-1015- I put her down at 8:45 because her usual A was 4 hours ,but she fought it for an hour until finally going down.)
1:50 - I tried putting her down because her A time before was 3 hours and 40 minutes but she stood and screamed on and off for an hour and twenty minutes until I went in to get her.
5:30 BT (went down right away)

The trend I"m seeing is this:
* I know she's probably OT as she's had several days of just a morning nap and no p.m. nap, followed by 11 hours or so of night sleep.
* It seems like at this point, it doesn't matter what time I put her down, she just stands up right away and screams. This morning, I put her down after 4 hours A time and 11 hours of night sleep and she started the first 10 minutes screaming on and off and now for the past 30 minutes she's quiet but just standing there. She will just stand there forever and NOT lay down.
* Lately it just seems like she won't sleep unless she's so tired she will just pass out at BT. She fights it and I"m really not sure why.

Any insight would be much appreciated. I'm so tired and I know she is too. My entire day consists of my sitting with the video monitor wondering why she won't sleep and my tears follow her tears..

Thanks!

Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on June 28, 2010, 17:26:48 pm
Hi there Christine,

I know she's probably OT as she's had several days of just a morning nap and no p.m. nap, followed by 11 hours or so of night sleep.

Actually if she's doing full nights it is possible she's not OT.  To me she sounds UT with a mix of SA from you being around.  Is DH still around while you are on holiday?  Has she always gone down for him ok?

It seems like at this point, it doesn't matter what time I put her down, she just stands up right away and screams. This morning, I put her down after 4 hours A time and 11 hours of night sleep and she started the first 10 minutes screaming on and off and now for the past 30 minutes she's quiet but just standing there. She will just stand there forever and NOT lay down.

Again from my standpoint it seems UT.

Lately it just seems like she won't sleep unless she's so tired she will just pass out at BT. She fights it and I"m really not sure why.

She's likely OT by the time bedtime rolls around so harder to settle.  It happens to most LOs.

Have you tried a 20 min AM nap yet?  You mention about her screaming for 1 hr 20 - what did you do then, WI/WO?  Really it's too long to try for a nap at this age.  If it isn't happening within about 20 mins I would say get her up and wait until her next cue.

I suspect she's had an A team leap on the other side of illness like you say.  Hugs, it's tough but you will both get there :-) 
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 28, 2010, 19:25:00 pm
Hi Wendy,

Thank you so much for jumping in to help! I'm desperate =). The UT suggestion sounds very likely to me. We ended up trashing her a.m. nap and I am going to try again in a little bit. DH thinks that when I get her up after after just 50 minutes of trying that it's sending her a message that she doesn't have to sleep. This is because she's screaming in the bed but the minute we take her out she's smiling and talking to us.  I just tried putting her down again for a nap and she's screaming again. I feel like I'm at my wit's end. Today:

445 Wake
845 Tried nap. No go. Picked her up at 1030. Was going to get her earlier but DH thought we should keep trying until she would fall asleep but I was pretty sure that she wasn't going to go down.
12:00 Tried putting her down again. I realize she's very OT at this point since she was up so early. She's standing and crying again. I know she was tired because she fell asleep on me during wd.

Lately it just seems like she won't sleep unless she's so tired she will just pass out at BT. She fights it and I"m really not sure why.

Also, I think I wrote the above quote incorrectly. I meant to say that she's so tired that she goes down right away for BT, no fights at all. It's just she fights her naps like crazy. Today's starting to look like a no nap day. I think we're going to have another nap fight right now.

Wendy, I tried a 20 minute nap yesterday but that was after she fought the nap for an hour and finally went down and she still refused p.m. nap after a 20 minute a.m. nap but she was probably so OT before p.m. nap. Also, when she doesn't nap, I do go in and do WIWO although I rarely have to go in because it's more of a scream, whine, stop repetition over and over again but she will not give up. She will just stand there and stand there for two hours if she has to.

* How do I fix it at this point? Does it sound SA to you are a routine issue?
* How much A time should I try tomorrow?
* I have this feeling that she's just in a pattern now. Almost as if she remembers, "okay when mommy puts me down, I usually stand up and cry and fight it." The reason why I say that is because in the past, she'll be in a good pattern and she will literally lay down, watch me leave and play with her bear for a few minutes until she sleeps. She KNOWS how to sleep. She's watched me leave before and been fine with it, but she's fighting it now.

What do I do now?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: momtonb&ab on June 28, 2010, 19:37:24 pm
just popping over here to link Christine's earlier topics that are now locked so you can provide all your best advice in one place :)

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=173832.15
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=172537.0
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 29, 2010, 00:20:05 am
Update: no naps today. Refused all of them and now I put her down for BT. She usually konks out at BT because she's so tired by then but when I put her down she stood up instantly screaming and now she's doing the same thing again. Standing in the corner alternating between crying and whining. I'm wondering if I should just go in there and do GW. I have nothing left to lose at this point. I don't know how else to get her to sleep. She's on 0 sleep and doesn't even act tired, though I know she's 100% OT by now. This is unlike her. Usually she will just knock out from being so exhausted.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on June 29, 2010, 00:47:40 am
Oh, no, Christine!  Lots of hugs!

She usually konks out at BT because she's so tired by then but when I put her down she stood up instantly screaming and now she's doing the same thing again. Standing in the corner alternating between crying and whining.

This is why I think the other times are OT as well, because it's the same behavior.  But, of course, my DD is always more on the OT side than the UT side, so that's where I tend to fall.

I think for the first nap I'd not do WIWO more than the traditional 45 min.  Then, you can set a longer time for the second nap if you want, but to do it for more than an hour each time is just no fun for anyone! 

I hope Wendy might have some more insight!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on June 29, 2010, 13:18:40 pm
Hi there Christine,

DH thinks that when I get her up after after just 50 minutes of trying that it's sending her a message that she doesn't have to sleep.

Well actually she's sending you guys the message, and she doesn't have to sleep really.  In the end, she controls whether she sleeps or not.  It's up to us to put them down at the right time (and this is key with some kids) and set the stage for appropriate sleeping conditions and to help teach them independent sleep skills if they don't have any.  At 14 mths, assuming she has been an independent sleeper with no props, she is now invoking her rights with gusto.  And if she's too UT to go to sleep, leaving her in there too long is not going to help.  Some kids can go to sleep UT because it's what they know, their body is set to an internal clock that says 'go to sleep now' at the same time every day - and it works for them.  They may not sleep the full nap duration but they can usually go off without issue, and it makes it easier to tweak their routine.  Spirited or Touchy kids ain't no way going to sleep if you put them down at the wrong time, they are just too sensitive to A times and they may respond better to a set routine - this helps set their clock which is normally all over the map.  Have you thought about set nap times at all?  We were never able to find the right A times for Finn - ever.  So during a lot of nap transitions we just used set napping to get us beyond the craziness.  Just throwing that out there :-)

Also, when she doesn't nap, I do go in and do WIWO although I rarely have to go in because it's more of a scream, whine, stop repetition over and over again but she will not give up. She will just stand there and stand there for two hours if she has to.

Yes been there done that.  Finn will just not sleep if the conditions aren't right - if he's too OT he needs help to go off (yes we still use shush/pat!) or if he's UT he will just babble and play himself into OTland.  And he has a lot of stamina, let's face it, they don't have anything better to do right?  Again, they are showing their ability to make their own choices now.  So we do have to get a bit tougher.  I wonder if you are intervening too much?  I have used GW very rarely because if we are in the room Finn tends to just chuck his crib toys out at us as if it's playtime.  But there have been times when he was off the wall OT that it helped.  I would alternate between shush/pat, telling him to lie down and go to sleep 'it's sleepy time' - in a very monotone voice, and just sitting in his chair singing Twinkle Twinkle over and over without acknowledging him.  WI/WO has not really done well for us because he is too Spirited.  We either have to help him with a bit of pseudo-APOP or we just leave him to it.  He doesn't need us - he just wants us so that makes the difference to how we handle it.

The trouble is they sense our emotions, and they are so clued in at 14 mths.  I recently read to take what you THINK they understand and double it, and that is probably what they actually understand as toddlers.  So if you are feeling stressed and whacked out about her sleep, she's going to mirror that back to you.  It's hard not to be stressed, believe me I know, but really as toddlers they can handle OT a lot better and they will make up for it either in a longer night or nap.  They become better at self-regulating. And it's easier to just scrap a day and move on to the next day.   

If I had to make a guess, I think it is a routine issue and that we need to figure out what her day sleep needs are, what her A time needs are and adjust her naps accordingly.  How was last night in the end?  What time did she wake today?

As for A times I would probably use:
3.5 hrs then a 20 min nap (because of the EW I would chose a longer morning A time)
~2.75 hrs then a longer nap - aiming for at least 1.5-2 hrs nap (watch her here, she may need to be in bed by 2.5 hrs or she may make it to 3 hrs)
No more than 4.5 hrs to bedtime until she's a bit more settled - this may take a week

So as example:
Awake 6
Nap 20 mins @ 9:30 - 9:50
Nap 1.5 hrs @ 12:30ish - 2
Bedtime asleep by 6:30

Just my 2c :-)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 29, 2010, 14:00:09 pm
Hi Wendy,

Thank you for sharing so much! I really appreciate it. Last night I put her down at 5 and she finally went down at 5:40 and slept until 5:30 a.m. this morning which is longer than she usually sleeps so you are so right about her making up her sleep when she needs it. Since she woke a bit later today rather than at 4:30, I feel like we have an opportunity to get back on track.

A few weeks ago what worked was:
5:30 Wake
9:30-10:00 Nap
1:45-3:00 Nap
6:30 BT

* Do you think I should try for a bit more A today or should I ease back on the A a bit because she may still be OT from yesterday? She seemed fine this morning, as I was trying to figure out if she has made up on her sleep with a 12 hour night. If she's not OT anymore, I was going to try to go for more A time like 4.5 hours since she fought a.m. nap yesterday, but I'm not sure.

* If she fights her nap today, shall I just get her after 20 minutes? I agree that dragging it out to an hour and a half is not helping anyone and if she's made up her mind that she's not going to sleep, no amount of WIWO will help that.

* You are probably right about my helping her too much. Usually what happens when I put her down is that she starts to scream for a few wails. Then, it drops off into a loud scream, whine, whine, stop and it will literally go through this over and over again for however long I leave her in there. During this, it does sound like it starts out as UT because if she is really tired she will lay down and sleep but she has SO much stamina to just keep going. There have been times when DH will go in during a loud scream moment but it will only be for a few wails so it's as if she's waiting there for us to go in.

* A part of me was tempted today to try one nap. Don't know if that's a good idea or not but I was thinking, if she's truly ready for more A, what if I did:

5:30 Wake
10:00-12:00 Hopefully and wishful thinking
5:00 BT or CN if she wakes early from a.m. nap just because I'm so afraid of the p.m. nap refusal now that at least I get some morning sleep in.

Maybe I just need to keep trying different times until I get it right. I was trying to go off what A times worked for her before and then maybe add a bit to it?

Thanks again Wendy. I felt much better after reading your post. You are right, that if they don't nap they will eventually make up for it. I need to relax and know this is not the end of the world =).

Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 29, 2010, 16:17:55 pm
This a.m. I put her down after 3.5 hours and she even showed sleepy cues. She was a bit fussy and rubbed her eyes, so I started the WD process. At the end of WD, she lays her head on me calmly and I rock her for 3 minutes before I put her down. This is our routine and I think she even fell asleep on me during WD so I knew she was tired enough. The MINUTE I put her down, I usually lay her on her tummy, she wouldn't even let me lay her down, she popped right back up and is now standing and crying again. It's exactly the same as yesterday. It's now a stop start whine just like yesterday. Wail. Stop. Whine. Cry. Stop. Whine. and I'm sure she will keep doing this for the next hour if I let her but I think I will let her go for 30 minutes and then go get her. I'm not sure what to do after that though. Wait an hour and try again?

She seems SO upset I'm just not sure how to break out of this cycle.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on June 29, 2010, 17:59:53 pm
bump (sent you a message)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 29, 2010, 18:21:50 pm
Just put her down to try a nap again. Stood up once again screaming. This time we even gave her Tylenol hour before trying nap again to see if maybe it was teething...I think next stop is going to be GW. Not sure what else to try. She is very OT at this point. She always wants me to nurse her so she can lay on me and rest her eyes but she won't do it in her bed.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: marlowsmom on June 29, 2010, 18:35:08 pm
Christine, I'm in the same spot you are in right now.    I've been trying to find the right A for her morning nap and she fights me much that by the time she falls asleep its the only nap that I get out of her all day.    I'm at my wits end and no longer know what to do.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on June 29, 2010, 18:48:45 pm
I'm so hoping she falls asleep at some point today!!!  (((Hugs))), Christine!!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on June 29, 2010, 18:53:10 pm
Hmm is there a chance she's teething?  I don't think this was mentioned.

A few weeks ago what worked was:
5:30 Wake
9:30-10:00 Nap
1:45-3:00 Nap
6:30 BT

Ok this is good then.  It shows that she's happy with a 4 hour morning A time.  So then did she start refusing that nap at some point, after the illness?  Then maybe she's ready for some 1 nap days.

Do you think I should try for a bit more A today or should I ease back on the A a bit because she may still be OT from yesterday? She seemed fine this morning, as I was trying to figure out if she has made up on her sleep with a 12 hour night. If she's not OT anymore, I was going to try to go for more A time like 4.5 hours since she fought a.m. nap yesterday, but I'm not sure.

Yes possibly.  You can certainly try it, it's all trial and error really.  If you think she's OT though you have to be careful.

She's probably getting OT now through all of this, although her nights are ok it's going to accumulate and so yes some day sleep will certainly help the matter.  Do you feel ready to go with GW?  I think there are a lot of people on the board who have some experience with this.

She IS going to be upset because her preference is to have mummy's company or to not sleep at all.  She's not going to get it until you mean business and stay consistent with what method you choose.

When we do changes with Finn we go radical.  Not because we want to...we would love to have that baby that you can tweak 10 mins here or there and have it make everything run tickety boo.  But we don't - we have a kid who won't give an inch unless we rock his whole world.  Sometimes that means pushing out his A times to the outer limits so we know he is tired and will give us a nap, but the important point is that we stick with it until he adjusts.  It takes time to shift these kids at this age.  There isn't likely to be a huge difference in 1 day or even 2.  You need to give yourself some time to let one of Tracy's methods do its magic :-)

Hang in there Christine, you are doing all you can, and trying to do the best for your LO.  
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on June 29, 2010, 21:58:21 pm
bump for help!!!! :)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 29, 2010, 23:30:47 pm
Thanks Liana and Katie for the bumps and hugs =). You two are too sweet!

Today has become a no nap day as well. After the first failed nap, we tried putting her down again an hour later and DH tried GW just to see what would happen. GW worked when she was younger, closer to 9 months but the last time we tried at a year she was just playing peek a boo with dad. DH stayed with her for close to an hour and she didn't really cry which was nice but the last half an hour she sang songs to him and talked to him. I think she is too old for GW now.

You have all helped me realize that I just need to pick a "rule" and stick with it. We have always stuck with WIWO but the difference is that some days I would leave her crying for an hour and a half and some days we would get her out of bed after just 30 minutes. Her nap times are all over the place because I was so confused with what time to put her down.

I think DH and are going to try to stay consistent tomorrow. We have decided to put her down tomorrow after maybe 4.5 hours of A unless she shows early signs of sleepiness. Then, we will just do WIWO if she is really screaming but we will just leave her to try to sleep so she gets the message that she must nap, that daddy and mommy are there for her but she must nap. I'm hoping eventually she will tire out and just go down and this may end up being the only nap she will take because I'm sure it will take a long time. The reason I think we have to take this path is because when we pick her up after trying, we try again an hour later but it goes back to the same thing and we go in a cycle of putting her down, doing WIWO, having her fight it, pick her up after 45 minutes, try again and it is a cycle...

I'm hoping she will eventually get the message that it's nap time and there's no getting around it. I don't know that it's teething because she's not fussy at all during awake time. She is drooling a bit but she doesn't seem upset. Also ,today just to see, I gave her tylenol before second nap and it didn't make a difference in her behavior...

I don't know that this is the answer, but I know that like you have all greatly suggested, I need to be consistent and she needs to get a message. Otherwise this chaos of different nap times, getting picked up after she refuses the nap long enough seems like it will be neverending and the OTness will just continue to grow...

I don't want her to "get used to" no nap days.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 29, 2010, 23:33:36 pm
Wendy-thank you so much for taking the time to help me. This isn't the first time that you have been so giving of your time to me.

Sharon-I'm sorry to hear that you are going through the same bought with Marlow. I wonder if this is indicative of our LO's being ready for 1 nap?! There's obviously something going on for the nap refusal to be SO drastic don't you think?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on June 29, 2010, 23:45:18 pm
HI there Christine, for sure she needs some good day sleep now.  No nap days can't go on forever :-) even with good nights.  If you guys aren't keen on the GW method then she'll sense it and it won't work.  If you can stick with WI/WO and stay consistent it will work.  You can even just sit outside her room and tell her your key phrase or tell her to go to sleep now.  She will know you are there.

You're doing a great job :-) 
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on June 30, 2010, 00:28:24 am
You're doing a great job :-) 

Yes, you are, Christine!!!  I know it's so tough, but stay consistent and she'll get it!!!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 30, 2010, 00:32:08 am
Wendy--I just wanted to run WIWO by you real quick to make sure that I am doing it correctly, if you don't mind. Currently, after I put her down, if she is upset, I say the sleepy phrase once and walk out. I then start counting, because she is usually screaming at this point. My rule of thumb has been to count to 20 and it's worked fabulously the first time we did it for BT's, but we've never really had to do it with naps. As of late, I really don't get to 20 before she calms down and the cry drops into a whine, or even by 10 for that matter. It's usually scream scream, whine...stop and it repeats over and over again so at times I never even end up going in. I feel guilty sometimes for not going in but if she's not hysterical consistently, I don't need to go in right? I think I will also do it to where i don't physically go in and just say it at the door because she seems to get more upset when i physically walk out, she will start shaking the crib railing and jump up and down. Does this sound right?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on June 30, 2010, 00:36:44 am
You are doing sooooooooooooo great Christine!!!!!!!! This is sooooooooooo hard!!!!!! I remember with Anna-Li!!!! We are all here for you!! You can do it!! She's going to adjust I promise!!!!!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on June 30, 2010, 02:06:17 am
I think I will also do it to where i don't physically go in and just say it at the door because she seems to get more upset when i physically walk out, she will start shaking the crib railing and jump up and down. Does this sound right?

I think this sounds really good, Christine.  Especially if you are still a little worried about SA, this will let her know you're there, but won't be as intrusive as walking out or the game playing of GW.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: marlowsmom on June 30, 2010, 02:18:55 am
WI/WO only upsets Marlow.   Much like Sophie, when she sees me leave she falls apart.    Even poking my head in upsets her to no end.   

You're doing a great job and you can always cry on my shoulder!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on June 30, 2010, 10:50:05 am
Hi there Christine, I would make it really easy on yourself and stop counting.  Really at this stage you know her distress cry from her angry I-want-company cry.  If she's not in distress you don't go in - listen to and respond to her cries only.  If she's stop and start you don't go in.  Mantra crying you don't go in.  Reassure her from the door if you need to.  You only go in and reassure her when she's escalating in distress.  At this age, you need to really repeat to yourself that she wants you rather than needs you and be firm with her, pleasant but firm.

Quote (selected)
WI/WO Method

Follow your bedtime routine being certain that your child has sufficiently wound down from the day.  When wind down is completed, lay your child down, tuck them in and use a phrase they can associate with it's sleep time such as "time to go night-night you can find your blankie/pacifier/suck your thumb/etc. to help you fall asleep."  Leave the room.  Stand outside of your child's door and assess the situation.  It's important to distinguish between different types of cries and identify when your child is truly upset and when they may be settling themselves.  Remain outside the room if your child is making fussy-type cries or noises.  If crying is starting then stopping, hang back and wait.  If crying escalates go in to resettle your child.  Repeat your phrase "time to go night-night you can find your blankie/pacifier/suck your thumb/etc. to help you fall asleep" and leave again.  Comforting should be brief and you should avoid picking up your child.

Upon leaving the room again, wait outside the door and reassess the situation.  The amount of time you wait is determined by how your child is reacting inside.  The key is to hang back enough to give your child space to fall asleep independently, but to respond to truly upset cries.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on June 30, 2010, 17:10:45 pm
How is it going today, Christine?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on June 30, 2010, 17:23:47 pm
lots and lots of sleepy vibes for Sophie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 30, 2010, 17:34:56 pm
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! She went down in 10 MINUTES!!!!!!! I am so happy I want to cry right now and give you all great big hugs!

I was so prepared mentally to fight this long battle with her, this long 2 hour battle and I was determined to win. I even prayed as I went to put her down--I know. So i totally totally upped her A time this morning. It was a risk but she wasn't showing sleepy signs for forever so I just waited and waited. Here's what her day looked like:

445 Woke but went back down until 5:30 (Thank Goodness!!!)
1025 (I put her in bed at 10:15 so this was 4:45 A, so you were right Wendy, she DID have a huge A time jump)

The other thing I did differently was that I took her to the park this a.m and let her get out some of her spirited energy. My friend made me realize that I keep Sophie at home too much because it's really really hot here so I refrain from taking her outside but we just decided to go super early. I let her walk and walk and walk and play in the sand and walk on the play structure. I think that helped to tire her out because remember she usually stands in the corner with ridiculous amounts of stamina for FOREVER!

So, I'm NOT going to wake her after a short nap. I am just going to try to let her sleep and hopefully she has a long nap then shoot for an early BT. Hopefully, as she gets older and develops more A I can just push the one nap a bit later each day thereby pushing BT later so she can have a later wake.

The other thing is that I kind of let her moan cry this a.m. when she initially woke at 445 in hopes that she would go back and she did. Perhaps before I was just getting her up too early. If she's just whining and crying, I just let here try to resettle.

I know that the battle is not over yet and I will still prepare mentally tomorrow for a possible WIWO battle, but knowing this A time helps and having this ONE victory has made a WORLD of difference.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart (with tears)...

Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 30, 2010, 17:37:53 pm
I should mention that she did try to fight it within those 10 minutes, she DID still try to stand and scream but I think that being so tired really helped.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on June 30, 2010, 17:50:47 pm
Yay, yay, yay!!!  So happy for you, Christine!!!   ;D ;D 

I bet it was partly the A time, but also partly your determination that got her down.  I know they can feel it!!

So, I'm NOT going to wake her after a short nap. I am just going to try to let her sleep and hopefully she has a long nap then shoot for an early BT.


This is a really good plan!

The other thing is that I kind of let her moan cry this a.m. when she initially woke at 445 in hopes that she would go back and she did. Perhaps before I was just getting her up too early. If she's just whining and crying, I just let here try to resettle.

This is important too!  I know a lot of moms on here have certain times that they will not go get a LO out before.  For me, it's usually 6:30 am, but when DD's teething and shouting the house down, it's 6 am, however we don't do breakfast or anything til 6:30.  I would continue to leave her and hopefully she'll even start sleeping later. 
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on June 30, 2010, 18:23:33 pm
Oh we are sooooooooooooo thrilled for you!!!! Its going to go great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes no one gets out of bed in this house until 6:30am (unless teething or ill as Katie said). So Anna-Li self entertains if she doesn't just fall back asleep. :) :)

I'm soooooooooooo happy for you!!!!!!!!! Its a new day and its going to be great! :) :) :)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on June 30, 2010, 20:56:18 pm
Hi there Christine, well done my friend.  I would say that your confidence had a lot to do with it...as did the activity level.  I used to ensure that we did a big morning before Finn's midday nap.  He is just that kind of kid that needs a lot going on and to burn off his craziness.  He has a line between needing stimulation and being overstimulated and sometimes it gets a bit grey lol but for sure keeping them active helps.

Keep us posted, and agree, we don't get out of his room until 6 a.m. and sometimes later on weekends when we don't have to be anywhere.  Our house doesn't start until then, he best get used to it :-)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on June 30, 2010, 23:51:56 pm
Thanks for the congrats everyone! She ended up taking only a 50 minute nap which I am not sure if that means she is OT or UT but I am putting her down super early tonight and hope she makes up some of the OT from short nap to bedtime! Tomorrow I will keep her in bed until at least 6 a.m.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 01, 2010, 17:44:03 pm
Hello All,

Today she went down for her nap in 4 minutes! When I put her down, she stood up screaming but then after a few wails, quickly lay down and cried for a bit more in the bed. It's a far better cry than when she stood and stood and stood. Last night I was worried that she would have NWs, since I did put her down for bed after 6 hours of A since she woke so early; however, she slept through the night from 5:30-5:30 so I hope that helped catch her up on any OT she may have accumulated from her nap to bed.

* Do you know if the naps will lengthen over time? Yesterdays was only 50 minutes but I am happy as this is better than nothing. Today I tried putting her down just a bit later than yesterday to see if that would shift anything.

* Also, how will I know if OT starts to creep in because many warn me that if I jump to one nap, OT may start to creep in. Will she start having NWs and EWs? Is this the best gauge of it?

Thanks again! I don't know if I mentioned that last night she went to bed without a peep. She didn't even stand once, didn't even cry once. Naps have always been more of a battle but I can handle just a few minutes of that!
Yippee!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on July 01, 2010, 18:12:44 pm
Yeah!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds great Christine!!! I believe she's getting all of that energy out before going down for the nap! That's wonderful!

Here at our house EW'ings mean OT or teething... The other way we KNOW she's OT is fussy, winy, getting tired before the normal amount of time she's able to usually last. Also hyperactivity is another way we tell. Most toddlers love running around and being active (sooooooooo full of energy) but the craziness and being nutso is OT here. Silliness is just being a toddler... You'll be able to tell the difference. :)

Yes our naps have lengthened out. They went from 30min's (OT for sure) to a hour then to 2 1/2-3hrs. Now I put her down around 11am (go on sleepy signs, only put her down when she's tired, or I push it back a bit, unless she asks for it) As of this last week she goes down at 11-12 (depending on cues) and sleeps for a hour or so, wakes and plays for 30-40 min's and then goes back to sleep. She's in her crib for about 3 hours most of the time now days. When she wakes I do not go to her unless she gets mad (or we are close to 2-3 hours) DH kept telling me not to go to her the minuet she wakes, and I stopped and now she plays and goes back down for a second nap most times. This helps stretch her day out as she's resting in her crib more and not running around or being super active outside of the crib. Yes I do slowly attempt to push that nap out as she tolerates it. She's teething and isn't tolerating it at all right now. Last night she asked for 'night night' at 5:40pm and she had woken up at 7:20am that day (2 1/2 hr nap as well).

I'm so happy about bedtime yesterday! And a good 12 hrs! Her night time will help her stay a float until she's really ready to operate on a one nap. Then you can start to push her out and enjoy a later bedtime and a late WAKE UP!!! Momma gets to sleep in then!!!!!!!!! :)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on July 01, 2010, 18:20:37 pm
Hi Christine, (Liana posted as I was, too, she's got great advice!)

Great news on the improved settling!  I'm so happy for you!  And yay for the great night!!  ;D

So, at this house a 50 min nap is OT.  But, I've obviously led you on that wrong path before  :(, so it may not be for Sophie.  I think your best bet now is to stick with this A time for several days and see what happens (i.e. will she start to lengthen out).  It will be interesting to see how she does today with the little more time.  That may help to point you where to go from here.  But, it does take awhile for things to stretch out, so you might have to be a little patient.  For Claire, it took about 2 weeks.  There were some longer naps, some shorter naps, but to get the consistently longer ones, it was 2 weeks.  (Then, she started teething and it all went downhill, LOL!)

I think you're right about knowing the OT is creeping in, NWs and EWs, etc.  Hopefully, others will have more insight on this.  But, with the 12 hour nights, she's doing well, so I'd stick to it. 



 
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 01, 2010, 18:31:31 pm
Shoot....just woke at 45 minutes. Going to try to leave her there and see what happens, if she goes back. Hopefully she goes back. She rarely does though and this could be because she's used to my going in and getting her within a few minutes...I know she needs the sleep though.

Hmm...this might have been an OT nap. I will stick to it for a few more days though in hopes that it will lengthen.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on July 01, 2010, 18:41:37 pm
Hi there, you need to stick with it before shifting any A time yet.  Her long nights are putting you in a good place to stabilize her.  She needs to realize, hey this is my only nap, I best make the most of it.  Let her body do the talking.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 02, 2010, 00:45:01 am
Good point Wendy. I will stick to the same A time tomorrow. Tonight she stood and started screaming a bit but nothing like before. After a few minutes she laid down and was quiet and went down after 15 minutes. Yippee! I'm praying for another 12 hour night! I'm keeping my eyes open because I know that her nap to bedtime is quite long especially on just 45 or 50 minute naps. I'm hoping she can keep it up until her naps lengthen. Mommy really doesn't want to go back to two naps =)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 02, 2010, 16:15:21 pm
445 a.m wake up this morning. I kept here in there until 5:30 although she never went back. I"m going to put her down at the same time today at 1015 and hope that even though she woke early it still counts as her "resting"...I'm scared OT is creeping up. Go away!!!! LOL
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 02, 2010, 19:02:21 pm
Put her down at same time 10:15 and she must've been OT from early wake up because she fought it and after 1:20 of WIWO finally went down...Sigh.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on July 02, 2010, 19:19:53 pm
Sorry, Christine!  The 2-1 is really tough!  Hang in there!!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on July 02, 2010, 20:06:48 pm
Oh I'm sooooooo sorry!!! Oh Sophie!! She's going to get it. ((((((((hugs)))))))))))) until she gets it!!! :)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 03, 2010, 00:21:55 am
Hello!

So just put her down for bed and not a peep, which is nice =). Hopefully she will stay that way until she falls asleep. I'm hoping for a good night rest since she woke up so early! In the month of July and August, we have to drive up to our family which is 4.5 hours away FOUR times! Now that she's sort of getting it, I'm sort of dreading the trip...worrying that it may knock her off her "routine" again. I think the only thing I really can do is to just try to stick with it as much as possible although I know that she will most likely put up a fight at MIL's house since she's so touchy and when we return just try to get back into it as much as possible! I'm trying to stay positive and know that it may take some tweaking when we return!

Hugs to all of you. Hope your LO's are doing well...
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: marlowsmom on July 03, 2010, 01:03:34 am
You had said before that she doesn't sleep in the car ever so if you don't have a portable DVD player then get one.    Marlow LOVES Elmo right now so a few Elmo DVDs and Baby Einstein should keep her happy part of the way up to your family's house.   

If you are staying at you MIL house then I suggest you bring any blankets, toys, and fans/noise machines that you use in her room.    Do what you can to get the room she will be staying in as homey as possible.      Also, try to get there in plenty of time to have play time in the room that she will be sleeping in.    Has she ever been on a long car ride before?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on July 03, 2010, 17:31:04 pm
Hi Christine,

Glad she settled well for you at bedtime! 

I think you're right about trying to stay positive for your upcoming trips.  I have a history of dreading things like that, but it turns out Claire always does better than the worst case scenario I've created in my head. 

You've got the right idea about sticking closely to the routine and getting back on track when you get back home.  I've found that Claire usually does even better at home after being gone; it's like she's so happy to be back in her own crib again, LOL! 

I agree with Sharon, bring all the things she's used to at home and spend time introducing her to the room she'll be sleeping in and telling her how nice the crib/pack n play is.  I usually bring soft blankets to put in the pack n play or a fun sheet for the crib and proceed to show Claire the pretty flowers or snowflakes or whatever on them.  She actually gets pretty excited to sleep in there then!   ;)

Another thing we've done for the car is to bring favorite snacks, drinks, etc.  A new something (toy, animal, doll, etc) always helps too, but don't bring it out til needed; then it's a fresh distraction for awhile!  And we've now started to find a park or something on the way, so we can get out of the car and Claire can run around a bit.  HTH!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 04, 2010, 04:41:04 am
Thanks for all the great tips! This really really helps. I will start preparing the list. She HAS been up to visit mother in law several times when she was really young, 3 months, 6 months and 9 months but we haven't been there since she was 9 months because they were such horrible experiences. I remember her screaming due to OT and nap refusals that I was trying APOP at 2 a.m. in the morning because she still refused to go down. Also, DH's family doesn't understand what it's like having a LO so when she did finally go down they would bang pots and pans etc. and it would make me so stressed out because I couldn't say anything but it's like they had NO idea!

I just have to remain positive, do the best I can and whatever happens, happens =). I just wish we didn't have to go SO many times! Oh well =)..

Today Sophie went down easily for nap and BT but she had another 50 minute nap. Also, it's the 2nd day she woke up at 445 and didn't go back but I still put her down for same nap time. I'm hoping that her body stretches her nap out soon so I can put her down a bit later at night. These early mornings are killing me LOL!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: marlowsmom on July 04, 2010, 13:10:19 pm
Get a white noise machine!   It is the best.   Search online for one or there is also some CDs you can buy and I found out there is a Iphone/Android app of white noise.    Either way I find that if I have to travel with Marlow I get her used to the white noise machine before we go.   That way when we get to our destination she knows the sound of the machine and it I don't have to ask our hosts to keep it down.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on July 04, 2010, 13:21:03 pm
Hi there Christine, I think her OT may require some 2 nap days.  Can you alternate do you think?  What is she like during the day on her limited nap?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 04, 2010, 13:26:51 pm
Hi Wendy,

For the past 3 days she's been having her 50 minute naps and oddly enough she is not fussy at all. She is playful and active and yesterday after 5 hours of A time as we were about ready to get her to bed, she was playing with her hat all by herself quietly for over 30 minutes before she needed entertainment from us. Her sleepy cues are definitely difficult to read these days as she's very playful and doesn't yawn or fuss or show signs really other than rubbing her eyes before her first nap sometimes. She's still, luckily having full night sleep. Last night she went down at 5:40 and woke up this morning at 5:05, which is a bit later than her usual 4:45 a.m. wake ups.

When she wakes I try to keep her in there a bit longer, but she starts screaming. I think a lot of it is because she's hungry since she has an early dinner so I can give her an early BT.

Shall I try two naps today you think?  Thanks!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on July 04, 2010, 15:40:19 pm
Sounds like she's doing good. Maybe try a snack of whole wheat crackers or something like that right before bed. I also do a sippy of whole milk before bed (bfing). The staying in the crib just takes a little getting used to. One thing I do is to go to her when she's ready and hand her a toy to play with. Not taking her out. Then I stay in the same room and busy myself in her drawers/closet. Talking to her and reassuring her when she's screaming 'out'. 'mommy will get you righgt out, just one quick minuet to straighten this'. Just getting her used to playing in there after waking. Then before long she's occupying herself for 5, then 10, then 45 minuets after naps/mornings. And now she'll fall back asleep after 45mins of playing (after the 1st nap).

If she's not fussy and playing about is there a possibility she's had a A jump? Maybe no sleepy signs because she's not very tired? Is that possible or not? Does she go right out after being taken to the crib?

I stretch the day out by doing as much low key activities as possible and extending her A times, but only as tolerated.

Don't really know how to advise on the 2nap days. But I do know if she will take them they will stretch her days out. I know if you think she's seeming ot from the transition, alternating two nap days will help her catch up for sure, if she needs the /will do them.

Trips are so hard with touchy babies! I second the white noise machine idea! People without lo's can be insensitive to their needs. They just don't get it. Maybe hotel if you can? (if she can't sleep due to the noise). And I agree, go right back to usual upon returning. Drop all aping as soon as you walk through the door and she'll get right back on track.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on July 04, 2010, 16:51:16 pm
Hi there Christine, I am of two minds about it really.  My first thought is that you are getting long nights, a nap (albeit short) and she's in a good mood in the daytime.  So really, maybe if it ain't broke don't fix it?  But then again, I know how tiring those early mornings can be.  What A time are you giving her in the morning now?  2 naps, like pp says, will allow you to stretch out her day a bit.  Which may help get her back to a better wake and bedtime. 

Finn won't do 2 naps unless they are both in the car.  If he does a car nap and then we try for a crib nap, forget it.  If we try for 2 crib naps, forget it.  So we are left with 2 car naps for a 2 naps day.  And even then, he will either be so tired he conks out when we don't want him to i.e. on the way home in the morning or he will be OT and scream the car down before falling into a troubled sleep.  He will fight it to the end.  We are indeed a prisoner to his 1 nap which needs to be at a certain time in his crib OR we do 2 naps and make sure we are out the entire day and really busy so that he gets his sleep in the car.  So not sure what your options are for naps?  Will Sophie cooperate?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 04, 2010, 17:53:14 pm
Liana--Great idea about teaching her to be OK in her bed. She really only is in her room EVER for naps and BT and I should make her feel comfortable being in there. You have such great ideas!

Wendy: I know what you mean. I am a bit torn about it too. She IS sleeping well at night and though I know that she is having a lot of A time before bed since she has such a short day nap, she had been refusing two naps for several weeks. Now this could also be because I didn't have the right a.m. A time. Right now I am giving her 5-5 hours and 15 minutes A. She seems to go down well with it. I just put her down right now and she went down awake in 5 minutes quietly. =) I tend to have more trouble with her p.m. A time. She will still go to bed quietly, although it takes her quite a while to wind down, maybe 20-25 minutes before she actually falls asleep but she doesn't fuss at the moment.

TBH, I should probably try 2 naps but we had such horrible fighting of 2 naps in the past, I'm worried that it will mess up how easily she's going down right now. She's SUCH a touchy baby and I feel like with your set nap idea, she's finally getting into a rhythm now. The other thing I was thinking is that despite the time I put her down at night, she still NEVER wakes up after 5:30 a.m. Of course 5:30 is SO much better than 445 but when I used to do 2 nap days, and I would sometimes put her down at 7 p.m. she would still wake at 5. So I'm thinking putting her down early is allowing her to at least have 11-12 hours a night.

Sorry for the very lengthy conversation. I'm just thinking out loud I guess. Maybe if she starts having NWs, it will be a very obvious sign that I just need to try 2 naps again....even though I really don't like them LOL!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 04, 2010, 17:56:16 pm
Forgot to add one more thing...I guess a part of me is hoping that over time, maybe a few weeks, her daytime sleep will just eventually lengthen. Maybe this is wishful thinking. We HAVE had 4 days of 50 minute naps now so I don't know if her body is set on it or if it just takes time.

Have any of you experienced the one nap lengthening over time on its own?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on July 04, 2010, 18:15:48 pm
Hi there, well we were lucky off the bat and given 1 nap, Finn just gave us a decent one.  We hit a napping jackpot at around 11 mths.  And he's not really strayed from that unless ill.  But he always does short nights, so our long naps are compensation.  One would think hey just shorten the nap and he'll give a longer night, but alas that's not the case.  We have tried but he was a bear in the daytime and just still slept his 10-10.5 hours at night.  So your girl is giving you a looong night but a short nap, she may never do both.  It's trial and error to find the best balance for her.

I would watch for OT, it can accumulate fast when naps are short, even with long nights, they just start to lose out on total sleep over a few days and it catches up with them.  So that's why a lot of LO's going through transition do 2 naps then 1 nap then alternate until that 1 nap lengthens.  I would have hoped she would be doing a lot more by now, I think 50 mins is pretty short, I wonder if it is a bit UT?  With Finn he needs 5.5-6 hours for a decent nap, anything less than that and we are setting ourselves up for a shorter nap and then nap refusal for the rest of the day.  So we have always erred on the side of caution and done a longer AM A to get a better nap.  Then we can do a shorter A to bed without him fighting it.  We rarely have OT bedtimes.  I think maybe Sophie's in a second wind at the end of the day and she's probably having a harder time settling.

I guess the premise is yes, we hope she will naturally lengthen but also you have to intervene if the OT is building up and you start to get unsettled nights etc.  Again, it's about finding the balance that works best for Sophie.

Since you are going away and everything will change up anyway, it's probably best to work with what she's giving you and keep an eye on her OT best you can.

Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 04, 2010, 18:38:39 pm
Hi Wendy,

I spoke too soon =). She woke up after 35 minutes...not even 50 minutes, but 35. So, I'm thinking she is building OT like you said. So, today I will try to give her a second nap and just see what happens. Before the nap refusal, she would have 4h of morning A and then 3 hours and 40 minutes of p.m. A and she would go down for her p.m. nap but then all the nap refusal started, so I'm not sure how much A to give her after 35 minutes this morning. May I will try for 4 hours of A and try putting her down then. Not quite sure but I know I should definitely try for another nap.

Unfortunately she NEVER naps in her carseat. She never has even as a a baby....

I just hope she'll go down maybe at 3. Do you think I should let her sleep until whenever if she does go down, or should I wake her?

Thanks for helping me figure this out!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on July 04, 2010, 19:27:43 pm
Hi there, that's tough.  I think if it were me, I would still cap her nap - probably an hour if it's so late in the day.  Then another early bed, early night scenario.  But some may say to let her sleep and put her to bed later.  I just fear that a nap too late in the day may rob from night sleep which we don't want to do since her nights are so good!  I know what you mean about the carseat, it's hit and miss for us too.  We normally get a scream down first which is unpleasant at best :-)

PM A time is hard to say, some would handle 4 hours, others may need to go down at 3.75 and some may even do longer than 4...  I would just use your best guess, if you get another short nap at least you are increasing her total sleep IYSWIM?
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 04, 2010, 21:53:41 pm
Nope...I don't think 2 naps are a go. I just put her down after 3:45 to give her time to wind down. She lay down quietly but then stood up instantly fighting it like she used to when she was UT. I am going to give her a little more time to try but it's getting so late now that it's just better for me to get her and put her down for early BT. It's hard now that she has increased morning A, if she doesn't go down right away for p.m. nap, it goes too late into her BT...


Hmm...plus I could tell she was fighting it during wind down, like "um, I'm not used to this mommy. Why are you putting me in my sleepy clothes?" =)
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on July 05, 2010, 20:29:20 pm
I used to never have Anna in her room either unless it was nap/bedtime. Now she plays in there a lot. It's really helped her.

Since Sophie is so touchy if it were me, I'd just stay with one nap and go way early with bt until that nap lengthens. I think it will eventually lengthen. Sure hope. As she becomes comfortable with her room, she could wake around a hr or so, play and then go back down again. It took at least 3-4weeks for anna's to lengthen out. Until then we just did very early bt, as she also makes the sleep up at night too.

If she will go down for those 2naps then Wendy and katie can help you figure the a times out and it will stretch your day. But if she just will not do it, then stay with one and very early bt, until her a time starts lengthening out and the nap and bt move later. Which is when you might get later wake ups.

Is it at all possible that 35min was ut? Or you think ot?

I agree with Wendy to really take advantage of those long nights she does!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tweakster on July 05, 2010, 21:56:33 pm
Hi there Christine, how did it go today?  I have no other advice, most people would say go to two naps, but my kid is exactly the same, once we moved him to 1 nap he would no way no how do 2 naps in his crib unless he was completely ill.  He would be like 'what's that now?  you want me to what...sleep...are you kidding lady...get this people, my mother wants me to SLEEP twice in 1 day' well you get the drift ;-)

So if she's shortening her nap, I fear that it's only time before her nights shorten or you get NW or something equally un-fun.  Let us know what is happening and what you decide to do.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 06, 2010, 00:12:20 am
I just want to thank you Ladies again so much! I was just looking back today compared to a month ago and even though we are still having very early wakings, at least her naps and BT are SO much better! She goes down right away now and doesn't put up a fight which is amazing for me sanity =).

So I have good news that today she had a LONG nap! She slept for 1.5 which is more than she has done in 2 weeks! I also gave her more A time this a.m. which makes me think that maybe yesterday's 35 minute nap was UT?! If this is true, I am amazed by her jump in A time. Before her illness she could only handle 4 hours of morning A and this morning I tried 5.5 hours and she went down right away and slept past her usual 50 minute mark. It was funny. I was staring at the monitor at the fifty minute mark thinking..."come on....you can do it...come on." She actually did wake and rolled over at EXACTLY 50 minutes (it's amazing how EXACT their internal clocks are) but I think she was tired enough to go back. In the past after 50 minutes she would just stand up and cry like I'm ready to come out..get me now!

Actually, I have a feeling it might be even more than 5.5 because I woke at 4:30 a.m. and heard her whining but she was already standing so she could've been up even a bit before then and I just didn't notice. Even though she woke so early, she still got 11.5 hours of night sleep which was really nice. She didn't wake up at all last night, maybe just rolled around a few times.

Liana--I thought of you when I put Sophie down tonight. All your great advice about being strict worked so well because tonight I put her down and she immediately stood up (without any whimpering though) and I thought, "oh great...here we go again." BUT she just stood there, I gave her a few extra kisses and said my sleepy phrase. She literally WATCHED me walk out the door while she was standing and then just lay down on her own and is completely quiet right now. I am just amazed. In the past, she would've completely FREAKED OUT if I left her side. The other thing is that she LOVES grapes and so I tell her when you get up from your nap, mommy will have a big bowl of grapes for you and bearbear to snack on. I told her that for the past week and today after I told her that, she nodded as if she understood what she had to do to get her grapes. When she woke, I handed her a little cup filled with grapes and she had the biggest grin on her face like, "momma, I earned this huh?" I was SOOO happy! I think I underestimate how much she really knows, like you said Wendy" they know so much more than we lead on to. Liana, you've taught me to be more communicative with Sophie and realize that she DOES understand.

Despite the EW's, I am a happy camper. I will take the long nights and the going to nap and BT easily without a fight even if I have to get up early. So, I think I will stick with this for now since she refuses nap #2. She's touchy so I don't think she has the flexibility of allowing me to jump between one nap and two nap days...I think that throws her off and she doesn't know what to expect which causes her to feel chaotic.

Okay, I'm off to cook a nice dinner for myself and put my feet up AND I really should go to bed earlier. These early mornings are killing me =)

Just love ya gals! Thanks!!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on July 06, 2010, 01:39:39 am
Oh Christine, I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO thrilled for you!!! This is the BEST news!!!! I was wondering if you were getting some UT naps, so her A time is stretching out quite a bit. As she gets older it will continue to stretch (will go back down usually for teething or illness) and her naps/bt will begin to get later..... then the BEST part... hopefully her wake ups will begin to get later and later. I remember Anna-Li was stuck at 5am forever, it seemed. Now we get 6:30-7:45. Most mornings are closer to 7:30 which is MARVELOUS!!

I remember one of my earliest communications with you, I told you how much better my LO was doing. And I was trying to use it as encouragement for you. I remember hoping it wouldn't irritate you (b/c you were having such a rough time) but help you see some light at the end of the tunnel. Its soooooooooo hard when your in it, but if you see that someone else has come through it just a few weeks before you... sometimes that helps you know it won't last forever.

Again since Anna is so touchy I would NEVER EVER try going back to two naps. She does NOT adapt well at ALL!!! So if she's ill or teething terribly I try to do a small car nap and then one good crib nap. I know you don't have that  luxury. So maybe just stick to that one nap and then of course go very early with bt if she's needing it. If she's teething or ill you might need to move that nap up a tad as well. Try to do a lot of low key activities when she's ill. Stroller rides exc....... Quite play in her room.

Oh and keep trying to get her to play after naps in her crib even for a minuet or two. Just hand her something and act busy for a bit. Try to give her a extra minuet every time. Soon she'll wake up and just occupy herself with her bearbear or another stuffed animal.

It might be that you weren't seeing sleepy signs b/c she wasn't getting quite tired enough. Is that possible? I know with my touchy little gal I operate mainly by sleepy cues. (I have general times she goes for nap/bt but it can vary a small bit)

Its so great now that she's getting more time to expel that energy she's not fighting you as much. She's like 'momma I'm tired, I think I'll take a rest'. :) So that's wonderful!!! And if she ever does start fighting you b/c of OT rut or some other reason, you have firmly established wi/wo so you don't have to worry about that.

YES Christine, they understand sooooooooooooo much! My Dad has always told me that, and I've just shrugged him off. But I know its the truth. When I communicate with Anna-Li things go WAY better!! With touchy kids you just have to OVER communicate about things. Give plenty of warnings about naps/bt's/outings/car rides/ changes in ANYTHING exc...

And giving them something to look forward to after a good nap is one of the best things Ive done. I don't remember who gave me that idea. SOmeone on here... maybe Katie. It does work. I'm pretty sure it was Katie. THANKS KATIE!!!!!!!!

Well Anna-Li just got back from a 4 day and 3 night weekend with my in-laws... We are trying to get her ready for them to watch her a whole week next year as we go to St. Thomas to celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary. OMG!!!!!! They let her stay up until 9-10pm!! They said she was running around like crazy (they didn't know she was beyond OT, they think she has tons of energy). I've asked them to make sure she gets to bed at a decent hour and get one nap a day (even in the car). They said she kept asking for 'milk and night night'. :( Poor girl! She didn't get maybe 1-2 car naps and had terribly late nights. She normally goes to bed at 6:30 (while teething)-7pm. She was BESIDE herself when we got her back today! DH tried to put her down for a nap and she went CRAZY! We go back to our house rules the MINUET she walks through the door (just have to be that firm with her). So I did wi/wo for 10 min's and out she went. She is SOOOOOOOOO OT at the moment! I'm going to have to do a LOT of earlier naps/bt's to get her caught back up. She's teething canines, so she really should have been in bed around 6pm those nights. In-laws think I'm nutso to have her on a schedule. ah! I sure hope your trip goes better than that!!!
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: katie80 on July 09, 2010, 00:46:29 am
Christine,
I was OOT for the 4th holiday, so missed your last posts.  I'm glad to see things may have evened out for you a bit.  I hope they're still going that way!!!  Great job on sticking with it!  I hope your trips to your ILs go well!!

Liana, PMing you about your weekend.
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: Tao on July 09, 2010, 00:59:22 am
Thanks everyone. SO far, we still have early wakings, 4:30 this morning...yikes! However, she is still sleeping 11.5 hours every night and seems to be doing well with the schedule. She goes down at 10:00 in the morning and she falls asleep instantly! The naps have lengthened a bit, on and off, we had a 1:25 the other day and today was an hour which is still better than 35 minutes! I put her down super early at 5 p.m. and she sleeps through the entire night.

She will sometimes wake at 9 p.m., roll around and whine for about 10 minutes but she's always gone back so it seems to be okay. It's funny though, every time she wakes, I have my fingers crossed thinking.."please go back...please go back"!

I think after a few more weeks, I will try increasing A time in the a.m. 15 minutes of so. It's just SO hard to stretch out her day when she wakes SO early but I have to do it so that I can put her down later and then get that morning later. It's one of those difficult things...

Liana- I am so sorry to hear that Anna Li was SO OT! It's funny because a lot of times my MIL has NO idea also as to what I"m doing when I BW. She thinks I'm a little crazy most of the time especially when I used to put Sophie down for 3 naps and gauge her A time really specifically. To them, you just put them down when they start to fall asleep and also MIL kept telling me, the longer you keep her up the better she'll sleep, when it's actually the other way around. I've learned to just nod and smile and then stick to my guns because I don't want to be rude. They mean well. I was thinking about Anna-Li today. Is she better? Is she going down well now like she used to? Is OT better?

Katie: I hope you had a nice little getaway! Thank you AGAIN for sticking with me. I feel like you gals are family now =).

I think I will stick to this and try increasing A time gradually and hope that the mornings push out eventually. I told my husband though, I will take EWs anyday for a full night sleep and easy naps! She goes down for both nap and BT without ONE single peep now. It's heavenly!!!! Although, I must say my DH and I have been a bit zombilike lately as we still go to bed late and wake up at 4:30!!

Hugs to you all,
Christine
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on July 09, 2010, 01:10:28 am
Wow yes that 4:30am wake up is early. Good news that she's going down with NO trouble for all sleep times. That's excellent compared to where you were a few weeks or so ago!!!

Also good news that you will eventually be able to shift her day out further and get later bt's and wakeups. I think as long as you don't try to push her when she's teething you will be fine. Just try it slowly and watch her. See if there are any new sleep cues you see now as she gets older and is getting more.

Oh yes mil just thinks naps are for car rides while your running about town. :( They NEVER give Anna naps while she is there. :( We would normally never let her stay without us but we are trying to get her used to being there without us so by next year she can deal with a whole week. She is truly more OT than I've ever seen her. Again so fussy, wanting to be held constantly, fusses about EVERYTHING, cutting her 2nd canine exc........ We are at a rough spot again. GOOD NEWS though she's going down for all her sleep times without a single fuss. So even though she's OT out of her mind and in pain from the teething, she goes down easily. But we are dealing with EW'ings, NW'ings (for meds), short OT naps (will only do 1 so I do'nt have the luxury of a cn). She's such a slow teether too. :( Took her 2 months to get her 1st canine and we are now on #2. These canines are truly evil teeth, they are by FAR the worst! :( I think we are having such a terrible time with OT b/c of what happened over the 4 days when she was at the inlaws. :(
Title: Re: 14 month old refusing ALL naps + OT....HELP!
Post by: alohahellokitty on July 09, 2010, 01:11:42 am
Oh on the 2nd paragraph I was trying to say 'and is getting more A time'