BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Food Allergies => Topic started by: tigerlilly905 on December 11, 2011, 02:38:44 am
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As many of you know, we have been following the Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS diet) for the past 4 months + to heal our family's food intolerances and digestive issues. I've been journaling our progress at home in the hopes to make a longer thread about it in the future to help others. In the meantime, since I've been corresponding with quite a few of you ladies via PMs, I thought it might be a good idea for us to start a GAPS (and similar ED) support thread so we can share what we are learning and offer eachother support. :-*
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I'm in! Thanks Rebecca!
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Has anyone bought a GAPS cookbook? Forgive me if this has already been discussed! I have major mommy brain!
I am looking at one called Internal Bliss.
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Great to "see" you here Jenn! :D
I didn't have a chance to post these last night, but I figured I should post some important links if there's anyone who's just getting started on GAPS.
The book of course is essential to this whole process: http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/ Don't let the title fool you. Many believe virtually all illnesses (including reflux, food intolerances, allergies, behavioural problems ect.) are rooted in the gut. Heal the gut, heal your body. Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride does an excellent job of explaining this all in the book. Apparently she's in the process of writing another book called "Gut and Physiology Syndrome" with the same ideas as the first GAPS book, but she will go into more detail about autoimmune disorders and other physical illnesses as well. Of course, the dietary/lifestyle changes are the same regardless. :)
Here's some basics for Allowed Foods and Foods to Avoid: http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/GAPS-Diet-Foods.pdf
Intro GAPS: http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/gaps-introduction-diet.pdf
Full GAPS: http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/the-full-gaps-diet.pdf
GAPS and Breastfeeding: http://www.healthhomehappy.com/2011/08/can-i-do-gaps-if-im-breastfeeding.html
FAQ & other helpful tips: http://www.gaps.me/
Has anyone bought a GAPS cookbook? Forgive me if this has already been discussed! I have major mommy brain!
No, I haven't got one yet. TBH I get most of my stuff from the GAPS book itself or online. Nourishing Traditions is amazing as well - but many of the NT recipes that require grains are for when the gut is fully healed (and we're a long way off from that). Can't remember if I sent you this link, but here is where I get quite a lot of my recipes. http://www.healthhomehappy.com/gaps-recipes
I know there's a GAPS recipe dvd out as well, but again, I haven't got it yet: http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/cooking-with-gaps-dvd/
I spent most of my evening filling out all of the forms for the ND appt we have scheduled. TBH, I was feeling kinda sick of filling these out (since we've already tried 3 NDs with little to no success), but I'm feeling hopeful after talking to this ND that he's the right fit for our situation. I was hoping to get a cancelation spot to be able to see him next week, but it looks like the earliest we can see him is going to be Dec 21st. He mentioned a stool test, hair test and an OAT test (organic acid test) - We're also supposed to be discussing digestive enzymes that Arthur is most likely lacking as well as possible supplements (such as zinc).
I wish we could set up individual appts with him for DH, myself and Ds1, but that's just not financially possible right now. But since Ds2's gut is obviously in the worst shape out of all of us, I'm hoping we can take whatever we learn from his appoitments/tests and apply it to the rest of the family.
I thought at first the diet + probiotics alone was going to be enough to fix things, especially with the amazing progress we made in 4 months, but as soon as we tried to get solids into the mix, it was a whole new ball game. I honestly couldn't believe the regression we had. I am happy to keep exclusively Bf'ing him as long as possible to allow his gut to heal though. I think the fact that he can't really tolerate any solids yet just tells me his little body still has lots of healing to do, and especially with things like low stomach acid (caused by low zinc) and low digestive enzymes, we really do need some help in dealing with those types of dietary supplements.
Anyways, looking forward to hearing about how all of you ladies are doing. :) I think I need to buy shares in Klaire Labs products since I've been buying their probiotics in bulk for the family! :P ;)
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I'm here, too. Not a lot of time, but will try to update with where we're at when I get a chance.
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Hi girls
I'm gonna join as well as I would like to try this diet for my extremely sensitive/allergic Julia. She is nearly a year old now.
I'm gonna give you a "little" background to her story:
Julia was born as a healthy baby at the end of last year. Unfortunately, I had to get antibiotics when I was delivering her as I had an infection. After she was born, she got few ounces of Aptamil formula before my milk came in. After this she was exclusively breastfed. At 2 weeks she developed severe colic - she practically screamed all day long with half an hour breaks when she would pass out from exhaustion.
I went on a dairy, egg and wheat free diet but she didn't improve and at 11 weeks the allergy clinic I was referred to asked me to stop breastfeeding and give her hypoallergenic formula. Another 11 weeks of of even stricter diet followed as I did not want to stop breastfeeding. I tried to follow the Failsafe diet. I was only eating: rice and rice products (rice bread,ricemilk etc), potatoes, root vegetables and pears. I tried to follow the low salysalate diet as she seemed to react to high salysaletes eg. olives, aubergines,avocados, also bananas(amines) -so I presumed she was food chemical sensitive.
She improved a great deal under this diet. The screaming stopped. However, she was still waking with wind about 5 times/ night, still mucousy stools and eczema. At 5 months I let myself be pressured into stopping breastfeeding as I was exchausted physically and emonionally. It broke my heart, though - still grieving the loss of it, 6 months down the line.
She is on Nutramigan AA at the moment and a very strict diet which consists of the following: millet, rice, quiona, chicken, potato, swede, squash, peas, asparagus, pears, peaches, plums,apricots. We have big problems with constipation and wind. She still wakes at least twice a night due to wind. We regularly try new foods but quite a number of them fail. She seems to have sore tummy from all meats other than chicken. I haven't even tried fish as she had terrible diarrhoea when had some salmon while breastfeeding. She reacted to both oats and corn. She also has sore tummy from carrots,parsnips, sweet potatoes,green breans and spinach.
We had a major accident 2 weeks when my 2 year old son (free of allergies) fed her a tiny amount of chocholate chip biscuit and we ended in hospital with a severe infection/flare up of her eczema. She had blood tests done which showed increased levels of IgA against peanuts and egg and a slightly reduced Immunoglobin. Her stool was checked for reducing substances and showed no abnormality. She has eczema, a hustle to her breathing, constant drooling (even when she is not teething) painful wind and constipation.
Otherwise,she is a very happy, friendly little girl. It breaks my heart to see her in pain and would love her settled and healthy.
I just wish I had round this diet when I was still breastfeeding.
I contacted Dr Campbell-McBride at Medinform medinform@lineone.net and she suggested doing the baby diet.
So here are my questions:
Do I just give her the meat stock and nothing else for a few days? She absolutely loves her solids. If she doesn't get the chance to chew, will that not affect her adversely as well?
Do I even stop giving formula?
It seems a bit extreme and I'm not sure it's doable. What is she doesn't accept the meat stock?
Do I not even give her water to drink?
Also, what vegetables do I use to make her soup? She suggests not to worry about sals - is that defo the case?
There are some veg that she reacted to .e.g. carrots, spinach, green beans, broccoli.
Any help would be really appreciated, ladies.
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Helloooo :)
Thanks for starting this thread Rebecca, I am glad we have someone who is well versed in the diet here :)
I am looking forward to talking GAPS diet.
My Kai (20 months) isn't able to embrace the diet fully as his veg is still too restricted due to his salicylate intolerance... which "ahem" Campbell McBride glosses over as "a detox reaction". But having put that aside we are embracing aspects of the diet, and understanding that one person alone cannot be an expert in everything :) :) so we are embracing the diet without dropping all the grains or starchy veg.. my Kai is eating gluten free whole grains at the moment... I know ultimately the grains contributre to gut dysbiosis though.
We are working on supplements such as zinc and vitamin B6, and magnesium to support his body to detoxify food, heal his gut, develop stomach acid and all the enzymes... so gut dysbiosis is a thing of the past. Problem is biochemistry takes months to fix, so hand in hand with diet we must be patient :) :)
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This is all so interesting. I think we have B's reflux under control now but he still seems to get lots of tummy discomfort and I am considering making some changes to our diet.
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I'm reading too as while we don't have the tummy issues (knock wood) we started solids with chicken broth and chicken and it's gone quite well (until this week when I believe teething kicked in though who really knows)? I have learned a lot from discussing this with you ladies and would like to continue.
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I'm here, though not really on GAPS. I am gluten free due to IgA allergy and Hashimoto's and also yeast and sugar free due to some level of candida, but otherwise not grain free. Definitely stay clear of MSG completely and processed foods for my family whenever possible (but within reason).
As for the supplements, definitely need a bulk rate! DS and I do probiotics and he also does iron and liquid calcium and Vit D. I do probiotics, zinc, selenium, caprylic acid, iron, Vit D and Vit C.
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I'm not doing the amount of supplements I'm surewe're supposed to be on and even just the probiotics and Vit D (and I take calcium and fenugreek) are expensive! I really prefer to get our nutrients from whole foods, so that part of this diet kind of kills me.
I keep meaning to get on here and post a summary of our story and where we're at, but things have been busy.
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Just thought I would let you know a bit of good news. I went ahead and took out all grains and potatoes from Julia's diet 3 days ago and since the day after, she has been pooing all on her own. No need for laxatives and/or suppositories!!!
Her skin seems a bit worse but I'm hoping this is just a die off reaction?
Anyway, I'm so happy about the pooing and I really think we are on the right tract with diet. Just wish I found it when I was still breastfeeding...
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That is great news! The skin thing can definitely be a die-off reaction. I got a weird litte rash by my mouth that last the first month or so, but its been gone now for a few weeks. And some other long-time itchy spots have also started clearing up. It's funny how the random little things that have never been particularly bothersome do seem to indicate a deeper down issue.
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I've been meaning to post on here for the past couple of days! We've been SO busy around here. Is it just me, or do the holidays make people insane?! :P ;) LOL!
Karen - Do you have a link to the iron supplement you are using for Ds? Also, can you please tell me more about Caprylic Acid? That's actually the second time I've heard someone mention it today and I'm not too familiar with it. Does it help keep Candida under control?
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Just thought I would let you know a bit of good news. I went ahead and took out all grains and potatoes from Julia's diet 3 days ago and since the day after, she has been pooing all on her own. No need for laxatives and/or suppositories!!!
AMAZING news!! WOW!!! I agree, what you're seeing is probably for sure die-off. You can bet the Candida/other bad bacterias are probably not too happy you took away their grains and starchy potatoes! :P That's wonderful progress.
Anyway, I'm so happy about the pooing and I really think we are on the right tract with diet. Just wish I found it when I was still breastfeeding...
((hugs)) don't be too hard on yourself. You really are doing amazing. Bf'ing or not. She will heal, I know she will :)
Random thought - I know bf'ing is a very personal choice, but if you wanted to go back, I know there are certain medications that can induce lactation again, and once you are lactating again you can stop. Domperidone is the name of the medication that I know of. Apparently mamas with low supply can take it, and I've even heard of adoptive mothers taking it to induce lactation for their adoptive baby. At this point you might not want to go that route, but I just thought I'd mentio that lactation is still possible if that's something you want to do.
Do I just give her the meat stock and nothing else for a few days? She absolutely loves her solids. If she doesn't get the chance to chew, will that not affect her adversely as well?
Hum. Well, if you're going to start from square one and do intro, I say yes start with just bone broth. If she *needs* something to chew you could give her a drumstick bone to gum/chew on (Ds2 does this and LOVES it...) Even though we're delaying solids still for Ds2 we are sure to have him sit at the table with us, and hes fairly happy to chew on spoons/meat bones ect. You can give her the bone broth in a bottle, a cup ect. If she doesn't really like it you could try mixing a bit of her FF in it? I have asked the same developmental question about delaying solids on the GAPS FB thread and have been assured that you will not effect any sort of development if you delay solids/chewing food ect. Heck, my mom delayed solids for 12 months and EBF'ed both my brother and I and we had no issues with solids once they were introduced after 1 year.
Do I even stop giving formula?
This.. I don't know, tbh. I know in the book NCM (natasha campbell mcbride) suggests if you have to FF to ad a quality probiotic in EACH bottle to aid with digestion. Also, I know you say Julia is on a prescription FF, but have you ever looked into the Weston A Price foundation (nourishing traditions) hypoallergenic FF? Everything you need to know is in this link: http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/recipes-for-homemade-baby-formula
There's a video tutorial in this link. She does a milk based FF, but later goes into teaching how to make the meat based Hypoallergenic FF 13 minutes into the video: http://www.westonaprice.org/beginner-videos/baby-formula-video-by-sarah-pope
I personally have not used this, but again, on the GAPS FB page I have read many people recommending this if you need to FF.
Do I not even give her water to drink?
Oh, definitely give her water. Plenty to drink. Water helps cleanse the system and detoxify. Especially with the extra fats/proteins she'll be consuming, she'll probably need more to drink.
Also, what vegetables do I use to make her soup? She suggests not to worry about sals - is that defo the case?
I would be mindful of Sals for sure, but my suggestion would be to perform the Sensitivity Test she outlines in the book prior to introducing the veg (whether its in soup/juice/puree ect) So, for example, juice a carrot. Put a drop of the juice on her wrist before bed and look for the reaction in the morning. Not the most "scientific" method I'm sure, but that's what NCM says to do in the book... Remember to start with Plain meat stock and then go from there
If she's reacted to certain veg in the past - it could have been the fibre. Remember their guts are very inflammed. Many GAPS patients can't even tolerate fibre at first, which is why juicing is so important.
You could try a few days of just broth/FF... then gradually introduce juiced vegetables to see if you get the same reaction. You say she reacted poorly to carrots, green beans, broccoli... what was the reaction? Rash? Spit up? Bad poops?
I'll see if Megan can pop over to this thread too. She's also woking with a Biomed Dr. and following GAPS for her little guy. She's further along on solids then we are, so maybe she'll have some more suggestions too.
It's funny how the random little things that have never been particularly bothersome do seem to indicate a deeper down issue.
I KNOW!! It's unbelievable! I just upped my probiotic intake and I've got some new small eczema patches on my forehead. I haven't had an eczema reaction in years. Well, I'm glad this stuff is slowly getting out of my system. Better out then in!
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yup I'm here too! I will do a proper post tomorrow - I'm too wiped right now and have to get to bed while I can!
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Wow, that's loads of info - thank you so much for such an informative reply!
We have sent away the digestive stool analysis yesterday, will have some results in the new year. In the meantime we decided to go down to chicken stock, swede and butternut squash and her usual hypoallergenic formula. We also started adding very small amounts of digestive enzymes to her meals. I will have to wait 2-3 weeks for the probiotics to arrive.
I thought a lot about just broth and juicing but feel that she would be very upset without the opportunity to have proper solid meals with us. She is so used to them now. She loves putting soft veg cubes and chicken pieces in her mouth. Not sure that all liquid would work.
I really hope we are not making the wrong decision with this. The biomed dr assured me that the enzymes would help her a lot with digestion because a lot of the veg comes out undigested at the mo... :(
Pooing is still going really great - I can't believe what a change! We have like 3 a day and all on her own, no laxatives.
I don't think I can go back to breastfeeding. I lasted 5 months under extremely tight diets and then got pressured into the hypoallergenic formula. But even then it took about 3 weeks to properly switch over (and even after that, I would have nursed her sneakily.) The thing is though that after a while she wouldn't accept the breast, it's as though she forgot how to breasfeed. So even if I could relactate, I don't think she would take to it again.
What worries me at the moment is her skin. I can't believe how great the pooing is but her eczema seems to be getting worse. She would have her lunch, then have a nap and when she wakes from that, her skin is flared... :( So I'm thinking, am I still giving her something she is not tolerating??? Her sleep is still quite disrupted, too.
I'm just upset as I really thought we were on the right track here... In the past reaction to veg was normally wind and sore tummy.
Re sensitivity test - have you tried it? Do you think it works? She passed them all so far and we even put cows milk on her wrist! Her true allergies (IgE mediated) are peanuts and eggs so I would be afraid to try these just to prove this works in case there is a terrible reaction.
In your experience, girls, do bubs grow out of true allergies? Or is this likely to stay for life?
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Only time for a quick post now, but here's a couple links that could shed light on food intolerances/allergies from a GAPS perspective:
http://gapsdiet.com/uploads/Food_Allergy_by_Dr._Natasha_Campbell-McBride.doc.pdf I really found this read helpful
This link has more info as well as updated FAQs that could help http://gapsdiet.com/FAQs.html
ETA - also wanted to say quickly, try not to get too discouraged hun. I really think you're on the right track. Gut healing takes a loooong time - years from what I've read. I find this journey to be 2 steps forward, one step back... but as long as you're making some progress, thats amazing.
As Eloise said, one person can't know *everything* so I do believe it's good to keep an open mind to all treatment options and ultimately do what you feel is right :-* I think you're doing great. xo
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Jutka - do the digestive enzymes have any dairy in them? you said that she was ultra sensitive and had to go to the emergency room for a tiny bit and lots of supplements have dairy in them so maybe that's the cause of the eczema flare? I tried to give Milo digestive enzymes and he had horrible stomach pain from them. Also, Milo has undigested chunks in his stool too. I think a lot of the reason is that he only has two teeth and can't chew anything and doesn't gum it well enough before swallowing. I try to make sure I give him small, soft pieces and then I just look at the poo around the solids bits to see if it looks normal or not. We also do a lot of swedes and butternut squash (among other squashes), but you could also add in chicken livers - this has been great for Milo and it doesn't come out in chunks. And have you tried egg yolk or avocado? I wish I could get Milo to eat those, but he won't even touch either one of them.
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Great read. Getting Started with Nutritional Protocols for Developmental Delays and Other
Special Needs. http://www.healthhomehappy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Alt.-Developmenal-Issue-Handout-PDF.pdf
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Jutka, if she has true allergies I wouldn't put those foods on her wrist just to check, she might react quite severely.
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How Healing reactions are not "allergic" reactions:
http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/help1.php This article is very informative.
"The fact is the body can, and will, react to healthy unadulterated foods with allergic-like symptoms. This is exactly the same way the body reacts to toxins or poisons. After all, the body only has one set of responses. However, reactions to good healthy foods are not allergic reactions, instead they are healing reactions. When the body receives nutrients it needs it goes into high gear doing its job of healing and this results in detoxifying and healing reactions and symptoms..."
"Healing and detoxifying reactions include an upset stomach, gas, bloating, diarrhea, a cold or flu, inflammation, muscle and joint aches, pains and stiffness, headache, skin eruptions of all kinds, and abnormal eruptions inside the body such as cysts, polyps, tumours, abscesses, etc"
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Oh no, I defo wouldn't be trying eggs or peanuts on her wrist- too big a risk just to prove if this works or not.
Megan - I was actually suspecting the digestive enzymes! They don't have any dairy in them or pretty much anything that looks bad. And I was only giving a few grains of a capsule but still, it could add to her sore tummy. Have you stopped giving the enzymes altogether then?
Good call about not chewing properly. Julia has 6 teeth but tends to quickly swallow everything and not chew for very long. I haven't tried egg yolks or avocados. will have to stay clear of eggs as she has a true allergy but will try avocado in future. At the mo, we don't want to give her anything new but let her gut settle.
That's great about the healing reactions! But how do you decide if it's healing or a proper reaction?
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But how do you decide if it's healing or a proper reaction?
Exactly what I was wondering!?!
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I've kind of wondered this, too. For me, I know I've never really had a strong reaction to any food, so when I cut out a bunch of things, started probiotics and got a random, small rash, I figured it had to be a healing reaction. But with a baby with sensitivities and allergies, I don't know exactly how you know. And even though the GAPS diet really pushes not avoiding healthy foods because of minor reactions, I'd be hesitant until they are more healed. Henry has reflux symptoms that flair up with dairy (and soy, we think--but its not allowed anyway, so not an issue right now). I haven't tried any of the allowed dairy because its one of the few foods I DO know bothers him for sure. Now, I also expect him to outgrow it within the next 6 months or so because both of my other kids did around that age, so I'll start try to eat a little yogurt or cheese myself here pretty soon to check for reactions. But I don't believe that even though the foods are allowed, that I should just push through his reaction because he truly seems uncomfortable and its not worth it.
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Oh, I agree with what you are saying Kim. I know for certain dairy and peanuts bug Arthur, so, die-off or not, there's now way I'm introducing them back in my diet just yet. I believe he still needs far more healing.
The difference between the 2 is really tricky. This is from the FAQ page I posted a bit ago:
1)How do I tell whether a reaction to food means “back off of this food” or a die-off that means “go slowly but go ahead”? For example, when I introduced yoghurt both my son and I got eczema. I though it meant that we needed to stop dairy, but you told me to “push through” – and sure enough, after a while eczema did resolve?
There are two reasons for reacting: damaged “leaky” gut wall and “die-off”. Damaged gut wall allows through partially digested foods which cause reactions. If the reaction is very severe and you know which particular food you have reacted to, avoid that food for a few weeks, then try to eat a tiny amount. If you still react, again wait for a few weeks and try again. As your gut wall starts healing, the food in question will get the chance to be digested properly before absorbing and the reaction will disappear. In order to heal and seal the gut lining follow the GAPS Introduction Diet. This also applies to phenols and salicylates in foods (please read more about that in the GAPS book). In the case of probiotic foods, such as yoghurt and kefir (they are the first dairy we introduce on the Introduction Diet) most reactions are “die-off”. It means that the beneficial microbes in the probiotic food are killing the pathogens in your gut; when those pathogens die, they release toxins which cause unpleasant symptoms – a “die-off reaction”. It is important to control this reaction by introducing probiotic foods gradually starting from small amounts. The introduction process is always individual: some people sail through it, others take a very long time to introduce a few teaspoonfuls of yoghurt or kefir.
2)Distinguishing die-off and food intolerance is still vague to many, how can one tell the difference? For example, how do you know if flatulence is caused by the meal you just ate or from the meal prior to that one?
The die-off symptoms can be new symptoms or can be your usual symptoms getting worse, when you introduce new diet, probiotics or anti-parasitic, anti-fungal/anti-bacterial remedies. Food intolerance symptoms appear when you introduce new foods into your diet. If you have been eating a particular food routinely, which you suspect as causing food intolerances, remove it for 3 - 4 weeks, then try to eat it again. Your body will let you know if you are intolerant to it. Production of gas takes time; it is the pathogens in the gut (usually fungi) that convert food into gas. So, it is your previous meals that produced the gas. Every meal sends a propulsion reflex down the digestive system, so that gas in the bowel may be released when you are eating your next meal.
3)Which symptoms should you push through and which symptoms are a sign that you should remove the food?
If the symptoms are due to die-off, initiated by the introduction of probiotics, the diet or natural anti-parasitic remedies, then continue gradual increase of the remedies and gradual progression through the diet, keeping the die-off at a manageable level. If new symptoms appear after introducing new food, then you are not ready for that food (your gut lining is not ready). Remove the food, work on healing your gut lining with the diet and probiotics for a few weeks, and then try the new food again.
More can be found under this FAQ link, just scroll down to the topic of Die Off: http://www.gaps.me/preview/?page_id=32
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jutka - yes, I stopped the digestive enzymes altogether after one horrible night. The next day I took them myself with breakfast and lunch and had a tummy ache both times - I stopped taking them too and now I'm just taking probiotics and free form amino acids. I'm waiting on some other supplements in the mail...
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Going to repost this incase it got lost last page: Karen - Do you have a link to the iron supplement you are using for Ds? Also, can you please tell me more about Caprylic Acid? That's actually the second time I've heard someone mention it today and I'm not too familiar with it. Does it help keep Candida under control?
Read this last night - LOVED the thoughts about iron & zinc from DIRT!! I have to get a pot of organic soil for Ds2 to dip into! :P Also helps with the decision if anyone else is thinking about delaying solids due to digestive issues/allergies/intolerances ect: http://www.mommypotamus.com/when-should-my-baby-start-solids/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=when-should-my-baby-start-solids
And another good link from Kellymom http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/solids/delay-solids.html
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I think the caprylic acid in coconut oil is part of what makes it antimicrobial?
Almost - apparently it's the antifungal parthttp://www.coconut-oil-central.com/coconut-oil-yeast-infection.html:
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Ohhhhh! Deb, thank you. I know coconut oil is also very high in lauric acid which I believe gives it lots of it's "superpowers" as well :) Yay coconut oil. So I wonder if you could just do coconut oil instead of the caprylic acid supplement?
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I asked my holistic practitioner about that with the coconut oil but it seems like the amount of coconut oil would have to be VERY high - like 3 tbsp a day - to have much effect. If I take more than 1 tbsp a day it seems to upset my stomach so she highly recommended the caprylic acid. The compound I'm taking has 800 mcg caprylic acid, 40 mg calcium (as calcium caprylate), 100 mg of goldthread (root) and 60 mg of Pau D'Arco (bark, stem). I take it twice daily. As for iron, I give DS 1 tsp of liquid iron from Kirkman labs once every other day (it used to be daily). That amount contains 18mg of iron choline citrate.
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Gotcha, thanks for the info Karen :) I will have to ask our ND about it when we go on Wed.
So after reading again about die off vs. intolerance I've decided to go ahead and try Ds1 again with sauerkraut. We first tried about 4 mos ago and Ds1 got a REALLY bad rash. All over his chest and on his face. I *thought* it was die off/detox but wasn't sure. I stopped the sauerkraut altogether for a while and it did go away, so I tried again - this time just a bit of raw cabbage juiced in his morning juice. Again, the rash came back, but just a little on his face. So I stopped again. That was about 2 weeks ago. I think I was starting with too much. :-\
He's rash free now and his poops have been normal so starting yesterday morning I added 1/4 tsp of the brine from our sauerkraut mixed in with his fresh juice. I did the same today. No rash yet, so that's promissing. I'm thinking the previous times I tried the cabbage/sauerkraut I must have gone too quickly. I know NCM says to only introduce high detox/die-off foods slowly, but maybe I wasn't going slow enough? I'm hoping to keep up with the 1/4 tsp of sauerkraut brine each morning for the next week and slowly increase it.
Megan, how's Milo doing? How's he responding to the Caprylic Acid? Are solids going ok?
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Can I thank you all for putting me on to a form of zinc that I can tolerate without puking? The zinc piccolinate, I think it was? It's also helping me fight off a cough/sniffle.
Still following along.....
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Yes, the caprylic acid is for candida (and probably other yeasts or fungi too but I'm not sure). The stool results showed that Milo had yeast and they had a section on the homeopathic remedies that were most effective on whatever the patient has. Ours showed caprylic acid and grapefruit seed extract. We are supposed to do a 1/2 tsp of CA for 14 days followed by 14 days of 1/5 drop of GSE. The dosage for GSE for ages 5+ is 1-3 drops per day. Since Milo is very sensitive she told me to start with 1 drop diluted by 5 drops of water and then give him one drop of that. We'll work up a little bit from there if he tolerates it well.
We are doing much, much better lately and I attribute most of that to the gaps diet. I *know* that's why his poops are finally normal after 10 months. I'm also more careful about how I give him his reflux meds which I think is also helping a lot with the screaming at night. Since starting the diet, he also throws WAY less fits during the day during normal routine care (changing, dressing, wiping face and hands, etc). TBH i can't really say how much i feel the CA is doing since i don;t really think he was screaming b/c of the yeast and his poo started to get better with just the diet. Also, it's only been 6 days and we are supposed to alternate 14 days CA and 14 days GSE for about 6 months.
Solids are going good - he loves to eat. For the most part we are doing pear, swedes, chicken, chicken livers, and squash. Occasionally I give him banana or green beans and I also still offer avocado and eggs on a regular basis, but he just doesn't want anything to do with either one.
Ok, Ellen is up now so I gotta run!
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Can I thank you all for putting me on to a form of zinc that I can tolerate without puking? The zinc piccolinate, I think it was? It's also helping me fight off a cough/sniffle.
Still following along.....
Wait! What is this miracle drug?? I've never even cone close to tolerating zinc and they say it's good for the immune system.
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Zinc picolinate is also the only form I can tolerate! I take 50mg daily with dinner.
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Erin, you can get Zinc Picolinate from iherb http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Zinc-Picolinate-50-mg-120-Capsules/878?at=0
Megan - that's awesome news!! Were you afraid to keep pear/bananas in his diet due to fructose? I kinda feel like I will wait a loooong time before introducing fruit to Arthur when we get into solids. Do you find the fruit effects his poops at all or reflux flares?
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Good question about the fruit. We took all fruit out of Julia's diet but it would be great to put pears back, even mixed with some squash.
How often do you give chicken liver, Megan? That was also something I was thinking of trying.
We went to a regualar dermatologist today who prescribed some steroid creams for Julia's eczema. She sracthed it so bad that it bled!!! I'm a bit worried about steroids as some people say it damages the skin...
Such good news about wee Milo doing better on the GAPS diet. We are also doing a lot better. Julia is now pooing on her own every time without laxatives. I just cannot believe the change. She is also less windy but still quite windy, though I suppose, this will all take time.
The only thing is her nighttime sleep is still disrupted. She wakes a couple of times at least for a bottle. How are your LO's doing with sleeping?
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OH. MY. GOSH. I just received my FCLO in the mail today. I bought the liquid b/c it was way more economical than the capsules... I have a pretty tough stomach and can handle a bit of nastiness when I need to. But good lord, it literally almost made me throw up!! I think i just wasted my money, I can't bear to take that every day!!!
Rebecca - I don't think he has a problem at all with ripe, peeled pear. The bananas though, I'm not sure. It's a recent addition and I've only given it a couple times and I haven't decided yet if I think he reacts to it. He never eats very much of it though, which may be why there's no problem yet. I don't give him any other fruits, though I eat some myself. Oh, and I gave him blueberries the other day b/c he really wanted some of Ellen's, and I didn't see a reaction. I wouldn't give him strawberries or blackberries at this point though b/c even Ellen reacts to those.
Jutka - I give chicken livers almost every day. He loves it and I feel like it's really easy on his tummy and I never see chunks of it in his poo (it gets kinda soft and crumbly when I boil it). Also, maybe I just have a good association with it, but I gave it to him at my uncles house on a holiday when there was nothing else there he could eat, but after that was the first time I got a normal poo. I buy some, separate them to freeze, and pull a bit out at a time. I boil it and store/re-serve the leftovers for one, maybe two days, but no longer than that.
We are also still having very disrupted sleep. He wakes about every 2 hrs and wants to nurse. I have struggled with my supply so sometimes I HAVE to feed him at night, and now he kinda just expects it even when my supply is normal. I think I have become a prop though as he won't settle any other way. After a year of screaming I just can't handle any more when I know all I have to do is nurse him (in the past, even this didn't settle him). Especially since, like I said, I struggle with my supply so much that sometimes I have to nurse all night whether I want to or not.
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Jutka - steroids are not ideal long term as they can thin out the skin (my mom is a nurse who has worked for a dermatologist for 20+ years, so we've had this discussion on the few times I've been on them). They're also not recommended for thin skinned area of the body (think the inside of your arms, places like that). The thinking (correct me if I'm wrong someone who knows more) is that the eczema is a reaction to something happening inside her body -- food intolerance most likely, based on what you've described) and will get better as you figure out what she's not tolerating and eliminate it. You'll get different opinions on this from other people, but when I've been in this situation myself (I had horrendous rashes in 2 out of my 3 pregnancies) I've used the steroid creams short term because having open wounds all over (from scratching) is IMO inviting nasty infections. So while the steroid cream treats the symptoms and not the causes, it can make her more comfortable (which might improve her sleep too, who knows? -- when I had those terrible rashes I would wake up multiple times a night from the itchiness). However, definitely press on trying to figure out the food issues as that's probably your best bet to getting rid of the eczema for good.
And apologies to the rest of you if my answer was not properly GAPS friendly, since we are on a GAPS thread. Just wanted to share what I know. :)
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Thank you for the answers, girls.
First reply to Megan. Gosh, that reaction sounds terrible - I'm not surprised you don't want to try again. I'm gonna be the same with the expensive digestive enzymes I bought for Julia - she gets such a sore tummy, I don't want to try it again.
I wish I were you and could still breastfeed!!! I remember though when I did, she was waking every 1-2-3 hours a night to nurse and I was absolutely shattered. I don't think it was a prop, she woke due to wind and then needed nursing to comfort her. If her sleep was just a bit better, I never would have given up breastfeeding. Now, she still wakes a couple of times a night but it's so much harder to get up and prepare a bottle than just to put her to the breast, while half asleep myself. I don't blame you for using breastfeeding as a prop to get her back - I would do exactly the same! This won't last forever.
Would you mind writing down Milo's daily feeding routine? What he gets for breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks etc. I think it would really help me to see it and would give me ideas.
Erin - thanks for the info on steroids. I kinda suspected this myself. But I think at the mo, I have to try them as she is very itchy and I think this also affects her sleep. Dietwise I'm not sure what else to change. We are down to HAF, swede, squash and chicken. I was always pretty sure about these. The strange thing is that her gut is a lot better (less wind,no constipation) but her skin isn't improving at all...
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Echoing Erin's thoughts on the steroid cream/eczema. Eczema is *usually* an external reaction of the internal imbalances you're dealing with. I would try and be patient and push through with diet. If she's uncomfortable, there's lots of natural topical options. Calandula cream is very soothing for eczema. You can also ad peppermint/chamomile tea to her bath which can also help soothe the skin.
Megan, so even if Milo isn't having a reaction to pear, are you afraid you're feeding the Candida/bad bacterias with the sugars? Just curious. Im just not sure how I would proceed w/ fruits :-\
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Jutka, I would try them too in your position. They will most likely make her more comfortable. It's my understanding that the rash can take awhile to go away after the foods are out of her diet. What kind of formula is she on? Might she have a dairy intolerance?
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Thanks. She is on Nutramigan AA - hypoallergenic formula.
I also heard of chickweed cream for eczema. What are you girls using?
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I don't think it was a prop, she woke due to wind and then needed nursing to comfort her.
Well, tbh I can't really rule this out either. If I don't nurse him, he'll cry or scream for literally hours. The few times lately I've tried to not nurse, I've ended up just giving in after 1.5-2 hrs. That makes it totally pointless and worse for him b/c then his reflux is worse and can barely eat. I know it's horrible to make him scream for hours only to give in and nurse anyway, but I'm already so sleep deficient and so sick of screaming that I just can't handle it for that long. That's why I've just decided to try not to, but nurse as soon as I realize he's not going to resettle otherwise.
For breakfast Ellen and I do eggs and avocado, so sometimes I offer it to Milo, but since he always refuses, lately I haven't offered b/c I have to not feed him before his Nexium anyway. After his nap, he nurses and then still wants to eat so I give him pear or chicken liver or something to hold him over til E wakes up and we can all do lunch. For lunch I usually bake chicken (dark pieces) and make a vegetable - lots of times some kind of squash - and he loves the chicken. I just give him little bits of the darkest, fattiest parts and he eats and eats. Then for dinner I try to make something he can eat too, though lots of times he misses it b/c he goes to bed so early (6:30) and nobody's hungry after eating such a late lunch. Sometimes though i'll give just him something. I pretty much I just alternate between chicken livers, chicken, squash or other non-starchy vegetable, pear, swedes, etc.
Today (in between writing this post) he actually ate both eggs and avocado! A little over a tbsp of each. And that's after nursing more than every 2 hours last night (last night was a pretty bad night). I'm thinking that maybe I need to make sure to do better about breakfast and dinner and work out the Nexium somehow in between. But maybe that's part of why he's nursing so much at night - b/c I don't give him 3 big meals a day, usually just one and maybe 2 littler ones. ???
Rebecca - I have thought about that too and I don't really have an answer except that I only give him pear every few days or so at the most and usually he only eats about 1/4 of a pear. Maybe I shouldn't give it to him at all, but it's just a food that he tolerates well and his diet is so limited and he loves the pear. :-[
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Oh and I forgot to say that he LOVES navy beans too. I don't give him more than 1-1.5 tbsp in a day though b/c I think they might cause him a little bit of gas if I give him too much.
Some other ideas, some of which I've tried and some I haven't: broccoli (very small amounts) cauliflower, carrots, eggplant, lentils, split peas, lima beans, green beans, berries (watch out for reactions though and start very small!! I only ever give a few blueberries no more than every few days and never strawberries or rasp/black berries to Milo), beets, pork, turkey, or slow cooked chuck roast. HTH!
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Don't forget bone broth!! Bone broth is to be used with each meal if possible for maximum healing :D You can also slow cook navybeans in bone broth, slow cook stewing beef in bone broth ect.. the possibilities are endless. Anywhere you use water, think bone broth! :D
Also, probiotic foods too!! Although they are to be added gradually due to strong detox/die off reactions.
You can also sprinkle some probiotic powder on food to help aid in digestion.
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Yes, we do a lot of broth too. I cook soups and stews with it but not usually beans or other vegetables. We usually just drink a cup with our meals. I take probiotics and give some to Ellen, but I don't give them to Milo yet b/c we had a horrible reaction last time I gave them...
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That's great, thanks.
I think you could be right, Megan about nursing so much at night because he is not getting enough to sustain him during the day. I find that since we cut back so much on solids, Julia is waking 3 times at night for a bottle and not just her usual twice.
Thanks for all the food ideas but I think we will stick with the swede,squash and chicken for now and of course, the chicken stock. I cook her vegetables in it and also give her cups during the day to drink. Would also put about 30ml of it into each of her bottles.
What reaction did Milo have to probiotics? I'm still waiting on our Klair Labs to arrive.
Julia keeps getting these strange rashes and eczema flare ups and I really don't know if it's a die off or if she is still intolerant to something I'm giving her?? The reason why I think it's a die off is because her gut is better so I figure, is all the bad stuff coming out on her skin??? But then she also has a runny nose and noisy breathing a lot of the time. Gosh, I really hope she won't be asthmatic. And seems to be more crampy than usual... but it comes and goes :-\
Just thinking if it's a die off, it's probably best that the probiotics haven't arrived yet, with that it might be too much of a die off, iykwim.
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I'm curious--where do all of you get the bones you're using for broth? Just from the cuts of meat you are cooking to eat or do you stock up on bones specifically for broth? I'm having a bit of trouble keeping up with the broth needs, and as Henry is eating more and more, I'll need more, since he and I both need to eat so much of it. the rest of my family likes soup and beans cooked in broth, too. I cook a whole chicken each week and make 8-12 cups of broth from that, also do a few chicken legs specifically for Henry and use that broth to make his food, and then we've done some beef broth, but my 1/8th of a cow I got only came with a couple pounds of bones, other than the few that are in the steaks, so I'm out of those except for the one marrow bone I received. I'm wondering if I need to just order a huge batch of bones or if I'm not cooking enough meats on the bone.
Oh, and for whoever wanted some food ideas--eggplant was a HUGE hit over here. I blend all his veggies with broth and he loved that combo, which was nice to have something besides all the orange veggies I've been giving him (pumpkin, butternut squash and carrots are all regular items). And green veggies that are higher in calories? I hate to waste space in his tummy on zucchini (courgettes) or green beans, and I think spinach may have bothered him. He was spitting up more for a few days when we gave him that.
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I think it's a die off is because her gut is so much better so I figure, is all the bad stuff coming out on her skin??? She also has a runny nose and noisy breathing a lot of the time. Gosh, I really hope she won't be asthmatic.
This ^^^ make sense to me... Arthur also has the noisy breathing. We keep a humidifier going in his room, which I think helps.
For the probiotics, start off *really* slow. I gave Ds2 1/8 tsp once/day mixed w/ bm for 1 week. Then increased to 1/4 tsp once/day now he does 1/4 tsp 2x/day. If Julia is really sensitive and already going through die off (which I suspect she is), the probiotic needs to be introduced slowly for sure.
Also, are you making her FF with filtered water, Jutka? We were just talking about this on the Organic Lifestyle thread, and it could be something to consider. She may be reacting to fluoride, chlorine ect that could be in your water? Could be worth looking into.
So today is the third day we've been giving Ds1 sauerkraut juice mixed with his morning juice. No rash, which is good, but he had a NASTY poop today...I mean, runny, runny, runny! So I think it's clearning him out... going to keep giving him only 1/4 tsp of the juice to see where it gets us.
Posted as you posted Kim. I use the carcase from the whole chickens we buy. The chickens are quite large so I can get a really large batch out of just one. I also buy beef bones separately from the farm. It's worth talking to your farm to see if you can get any extra bones from them for sure. Cara from Health, home & happiness says she almost always* has bone broth on the go in a crock pot. She also says she freezes portions in Mason Jars for future use. I'm with you though, we go through SO much bone broth I don't know if I would be able to get enough to freeze :P
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We get our bones from the organic butcher, just ask him to cut some up. I need to make 4L of borth per week to keep up with our families needs, basically one chicken one - whole chicken plus 1kg of chicken wings makes 3-4L of beautiful broth, then the other with lamb bones, about 2kg of bones. :) :) :)
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Well, today at dinner we gave Ds2 his usual drumstick bone to chew on (just the bone, no meat or anything on it) He was happy enough, but REALLY wanted "real" food. So DH gave him the tiniest piece of chicken to gum. Ds2 was so pleased... then about 5 minutes later PROJECTILE vomit everywhere :( His poor tummy. Glad we see the ND tomorrow, it really worries me he can't keep anything besides BM down at this point.
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Goodness Rebecca, I hope you can find some answers for that! How alarming!
Kim, I feed James the chicken as well as the broth so a whole chicken for us made about 9-10 cups of broth as well as the broth I put in the food processor to purée the chicken. Basically I boiled the entire chicken for the first hour and a half or so, then took the meat off of the bones and boiled the bones for another bunch of hours. Made stock for the family with a second chicken at the same time.
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Oh wow Rebecca, big hugs! I'm very interested to hear what the ND comes up with, I want to hear all about it!! I guess you won't have test results for a while though, huh?
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Oh wow Rebecca, big hugs! I'm very interested to hear what the ND comes up with, I want to hear all about it!! I guess you won't have test results for a while though, huh?
Not sure... Sucks we're going right before xmas, you know the holidays will slow things down too... I'm sure the OAT test might take a bit. I'm bringing his morning diaper (with a HUGE nasty poop in it) for the ND to take a look at :P Not sure if they can take a sample right from that, or if they need a more "fresh" sample.
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Good luck, Rebecca. That is pretty upsetting that he's still at this point after how hard you've been working on this. They can probably get the stool sample from the diaper--I know for our stool sample that the GI wanted, they just asked me to put some from a diaper into a little container and bring it in within 24 hours, I think. He happened to poop right after we left the exam room, so I just left it there right then.
I can't remember from my other kids at what point in the solids introduction their poops became formed instead of the peanut butter type mush, but Henry's got there a couple days ago. On the one hand, they look great and just where they should be according to the chart I found on one GAPS website, but they were coming out in little balls through out the day and night and he seemed to have to strain a little, so I've cut back on how much squash he's getting and upped his chicken and broth amounts and we're back to mush this morning. The others were SO much easier to clean up, but we'll see if he can sleep better this way. Anyone have any comparison--at this age, what should they be looking like? Is he too young for formed poops still?
I think I'm making pretty concentrated stock because I only get about 2 or 2.5 quarts from each chicken (5 pound chickens). And I can easily use a quart to make Henry's meals for the week, which doesn't leave me much for cooking soups--I would need to cook a chicken about every other day, which is just really expensive. And I feel like I'm not eating as much broth as I should. When everyone talks about drinking a cup of broth with their meals, etc. . . I maybe get 1 cup a day, usually in the form of a soup of some sort. Is that enough?
our farm isn't delivering the next 2 weekends because of the holidays, but first of Jan, I'm going to order some extra bones to do more beef broth. I need more ground beef anyway, so I'll just get a few items seperately instead of ordering another cow portion. It takes us a lot longer to go through all the roasts and steaks.
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Kim, we don't have formed poops here right now. We had ones that were somewhere between peanut butter and formed for a few days but he seemed really uncomfortable with that so I gave him some more fruit for a day or too and they're mush again. I've been wondering if they're too mushy tbh but he seems so much happier with them this way. The semi-solid ones were really bothering him.
When I make chicken stock I put water in to cover the chicken plus an inch or two more and them leave it mostly covered while it cooks.
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Erin--that's exactly how our poop was this week. So much easier to plop out of the diaper, and they weren't super solid or anything, but he really seemed to be having a hard time getting them out, so I've upped the broth and we're back to a lot mushier (and messier) poops, but he seems to have an easier time passing them. And I'm hoping since it was a greater quantity this a.m., he won't have to go several times today so maybe we can get a decent nap in.
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Let's just call it "normal" then since they're the same age. :)
His AM one was much in the peanut butter consistency and he seemed happy enough about it.
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How are you guys giving the bone broth to your LOs? Milo wants nothing at all to do with it... I've tried bottle (he threw it all up last time I tried ::) ) and syringe but he just does not want it. What is it with him flat out refusing all the things that are supposed to be the best for him on this diet: broth and egg yolk (and avocado too) ???
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We do broth mixed in with his purees. But Henry also love it and has since the first time he tried it. Not sure if you can mix it with stuff to hide the flavor?
And I agree that its frustrating when they don't like exactly what they should. Henry vomited 5 times after I finally managed to trick him into eating some avocado, so I've had to give up. He's so low on the weight charts that I was really hoping he'd eat a lot of avo and catch up. both my other kids loved it and ate a ton in the beginning of solids.
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What is it with him flat out refusing all the things that are supposed to be the best for him on this diet: broth and egg yolk (and avocado too)
I remember reading it's because of the Candida (and other nasty guys in their guts). The bad bacterias make them crave or prefer the starchy/sugary foods and want to reject the nourishing foods. Which is why in extreme cases of autism and other neurological disorders many children have a very limited diet of what they will eat - all due to the bad bacteria controling their brain connections to food, kwim? Wild, eh?
I have more to write but no time now. ND was amazing today though. Will write more in a bit, but have to get dinner on.
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Now I'm confused. When you say bone broth, do you just mean meat stock? We slow cook a full chicken and use the liquid to cook her vegetables in and I also warm some up and give it to her in a sippy cup. This seems to be the best way for her to accept it.
Yes, I use filtered water to make her bottles and also to make her meat stock.
Interesting discussion about what the poo should look like. I can pretty much tell what she had from her poo, from the colour and consistency. Julia's are mushy in the morning (but that's probably all the bottles she took overnight) and a bit harder and better formed in the evening - that's all the solids she takes during the day.
Curious what your ND came up with, Rebecca. Keep us posted.
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The bad bacterias make them crave or prefer the starchy/sugary foods and want to reject the nourishing foods.
Yeah, but he'll eat everything else I give him - including liver! I don't give any sugary foods (with the exception of pear every few days, like I said)
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Ok, so I'll try not to write a novel, but I know I will :P ::)
So the ND today has an expertise in this sort of thing. It was like a breath of fresh air talking to him!! (Thanks to Eloise and Megan for giving me the links to finding him!!! :-*) Like NCM, his specialty is Autistic children and other neurological disorders. (of course linked to the condition in the gut and food intolerances as we've all learned about...)
He could tell just by touching Arthur's tummy where some internal imbalances were. He said the right side of Arthur's digestive tract is a bit under developed from what he could tell. It could possibly be from how he was positioned in the womb, but it's hard to say. He said he could feel a lower blockage near the base of his tummy too, which is possibly where he's having the most trouble with his poops.
To start us off we are doing an OAT and a stool test. I have the kits here. The OAT test needs to be sent out between mon-wed and a fresh urine sample is best, so it looks like we will have to wait until Monday or Tuesday to send it out. We are also doing a stool test to test the bacteria levels. Both tests have to be shipped to the States so we probably won't have results for 4-5 weeks :-\
In the meantime we're to continue with the high dose probiotics that we're already using AND also use these probiotics too: http://www.amazon.com/Global-Health-Trax-Fivelac-60-Count/dp/B000OOLYO8 Like NCM, our ND said that the probiotics are crutial in healing, and these kiddos need SUPER high doses (even more then I thought!) So I am to continue dosing Arthur 1/4 tsp of the Klaire Labs 2x/day and do 1/2 pack of the FiveLac 2x/day as well. What's special about the FiveLac are the probiotic strains themselves. He said that these are the ones he finds he has the highest success rate with and they also have a higher chance of implanting their colonies in the gut (instead of just passig through, iyswim?)
Here's the probiotic strains in the fivelac:
•Bacillus coagulans: A probiotic organism that may help control occasional digestion and stomach problems.
•Bacillus subtilis:A probiotic organism that may help crowd out "bad" flora in the intestines.
•Enterococcus faecalis: Enterococci constitute a major genus within the lactic acid bacteria group that exists naturally in the human digestive tract. This effective probiotic bacteria is the result of formulation under strict laboratory conditions.
•Lactobacillus acidophilus: These friendly bacteria inhabit the intestinal tract. The breakdown of nutrients by L. acidophilus produces lactic acid, hydrogen peroxide, and other by-products to enhance optimal intestinal flora.
•Bifidobacterium longum: B. longum may help keep the digestive system running smoothly
My only beef with this supplement is the FOS :-\ I know FOS is a no-no on GAPS, and I'm not a huge fan of the stuff in general, but this ND swears by this probiotic and does say that the FOS can help the strains survive while passing through the digestive tract to give them more of a chance to "fight" the bad bacteria. So I guess we'll give it a go.
We also have to start digestive enzymes. These are the ones he recommends. http://www.amazon.com/Integrative-Therapeutics-Similase-Junior-V-Caps/dp/B0031R8MWW
I have to open and mix one capsule with either water or BM and give it to Arthur 3x/day. He says usually enzymes don't have to be taken long term, it just depends on the case. He says typically it takes about 3 months on enzymes for digestion to be in a more stable place.
We also discussed an IgG test for both Arthur & Charles to see if we can pinpoint specific food sensitivity triggers, but we probably won't do that until next visit (good thing too - cause this was all starting to get pretty expensive ::))
He's also a very experienced NAET practitioner http://www.naet.com/ He mentioned perhaps doing some NAET treatments in the future for both boys if needed, but again, we can cross that bridge later as it comes.
He feels both boys cases are probably very similar, of course Arthur having the most severe case and Charles much more minor. I'm going to dose Charles the same with the probiotics/enzymes to see where it gets us with him.
He believes very strongly in postponing vaccines until after the age of 2 yrs for all children, but for these kiddos in particular. Since their immune system is already compromised and can't process/handle the toxins associated with vaccines its one of the best ways to avoid neurotoxicity and stress on their already very sensitive immune system. Makes sense to me, especially since the immune system isn't fully developed until after 2 yrs. I guess he sees very bad cases of Autism as well, and in some cases the vaccinations are what tipped the scale to causing the worst damage. We had already made the decision to postpone immunization for Arthur indefinitely until his tummy healed, but I was glad he was more then supportive of the decision.
He also said that Arthur could perhaps have an "energy blockage" that's causing him to vomit. The way he explained it is that Arthur could have an internal trigger that says "solids are bad for you right now, we can only digest liquids" and it's making him reflux the solids. Again, makes sense considering he just can't keep any solids down. This is what the NAET website says about blockages: "The brain provides warnings to the body whenever blockages occur within the energy pathways. These warnings include illness, pain, inflammation, fever, heart attacks, strokes, abnormal growths, tumors, and various physical, physiological and psychological discomforts. If the symptoms are minor, blockages are minor. If the symptoms are major, blockages are major. Minor blockages can be unblocked easily, whereas major blockages take a long time to unblock. "
He said some kids digestive systems start to get lazy when they are already in this state, so the extra probiotics and digestive enzymes will help to revv up his system again so hopefully after a month or so on those supplements we'll be able to try solids again as per the GAPS protocol. I mean, Arthur was able to keep down the liquid bone broth fine, and also kept down carrot juice I gave him - but both resulted in really nasty mucuous poops. So maybe those made it past his vomit trigger, but his body still couldn't break them down properly, kwim?
ANYWAYS, lots to work with, which is great. I'm sure I forgot something, but that's all that's popping in my head for now. What do you ladies think? He seemed pretty on the ball to me.
Jutka, bone broth and meat stock are a little different. Bone broth is when you cover the bones with filtered water and boil, boil, boil ... usually a min of 3 hrs. Boiling just the bones helps to extract all of their healing properties, gelatenous tissues ect. You could mix meat stock and bone broth together for sure. I know both meat stock and bone broth are very high on the gaps list.
Megan, wish I knew what else to suggest. Hummmm... tricky little Milo :P At least he's loving liver!
ETA - I knew I forgot something.. the other thing I'm not 100% on with the Fivelac is that it does contain trace amounts of casein/lactose. I know it would be fermented of course since it's in probiotic form, but I'm not sure if it will bug the boys :-\ He said that he almost never gets a food sensitivity reaction from these, so they should be fine... I think i will have to introduce them very slowly to avoid adverse reaction. If it's a strong probiotic like he says it is, I anticipate it causing a lot of die off anyways, so I may have to work up to giving the boys the 1/2 pack 2x/day as he suggested. Either way, they are on order so we'll see how they work out.
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Well, my mommy research tells me Fivelac is out. I've had to cancel the order. After digging through the ingredients I've found they use Canola. An email to the company later and I find out it's GMO Canola, which I'm not putting in my kids. That, paired with the fact it contains traces of dairy, I'm just not comfortable using it. Argh, I'm a little annoyed. I called our ND today and he apologized... I guess not everyone is as concerned about GMOs, so even he wasn't aware that this product contained GM Canola. Either way... I suppose I will just up the Klaire Labs even more until we find a more suitable probiotic to pair with it.
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Megan, which Klaire Labs probiotic did you give Milo that gave him a really bad reaction? I'm looking through their product line right ow to see if I can find a stronger probiotic to pair with the infant probiotic we are using. I'm thinking the Pro5 25 billion CFU would be good since it's supposed to enhance gut colonization, but I'm not totally sure.
Also, does anyone remember reading that acidophilus can bother some GAPS patients? I can't recall exactly.
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We've been REALLY happy with using both Udo's Choice Infant Probiotic once daily in the am and Culturelle (adult version opened up) once daily afternoon. Both are totally dairy free and we've really noticed a difference.
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I used the Udo's when Katie was small and having a horrible time with some strong antibiotics. They worked quite well.
So here's a funny thought - we've been talking a lot about bone broth and it's healing properties - my dear uncle developed a condition almost two years ago that was a precursor to a severe form of leukemia - after chemo they did a bone marrow transplant and he spent months and months wanting to eat nothing but chicken soup. I think his body knew what it needed!
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Rebecca - it was the ther-biotic complete 25+ billion. I hope you find something that works!
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So not this one Megan? http://www.klaire.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=V086-06 I was leaning towards this one.
But, I just got an email from our ND. I asked him to check out the Klaire labs brand probiotics to see if he could find a compatible one to go with the infant strains we're using. He suggested this one, the "Vital Immune"
http://www.klaire.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=V171-10
As the product description says, it's supposed to help with IgA cells and allergy responses. Who knew this was going to get so complicated :P
I've actually been really happy with the improvements from the Klaire Labs Infant Ther-biotic, but as our ND suggested, he thinks we still need something more potent to ad to it. I guess different strains all have different healing properties?
Awesome about the bone broth Erin! :D
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Re: the different healing properties, yes! Was reading something just yesterday on the different strains and what different things they target.
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That Klaire one looks really great - would love to order it but need a referral code! Will have to wait and speak with my holistic doc after the holidays.
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Here is not what I was reading, but it does outline some of the major strains of probiotics
http://www.livestrong.com/article/27960-list-probiotic-bacteria/
I'll keep looking for what I was actually looking at as it had many of the probiotic strains described. I hadn't realized there were quite so many!
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That Klaire one looks really great - would love to order it but need a referral code! Will have to wait and speak with my holistic doc after the holidays.
I thought so too, but just go on Amazon.com... they have all of their products you can order and ship to your home. No referral code ;) :D
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Klaire+labs&x=0&y=0
We've been using the Infant Ther-biotic for the boys and DH and I take the Ther-biotic Complete w/ 100 bil CFUs. I just ordered the Vital immune to complement the boys infant probiotic. ND said to dose one broken capsule/day in conjuction with the 2x 1/4 tsp infant probiotic/day for the boys.
Ohh, looking forward to reading that article Erin, I have it bookmarked for later tonight!
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Awesome with the Klaire Labs - just ordered the Vital Immune as well - will give him one capsule in his juice AM and stick with one capsule Culturelle in the afternoon!
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No, it's not that one... sorry for the delay in answer. I can't believe Christmas Eve is tomorrow, I'm soooo not ready!!
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Do any of you ladies do Fermented Cod Liver oil? You do, right Megan? Have you given it to Milo yet? We do regular fish oil, but after reading about the fermented cod liver oil in the GAPS book, I seem to be hearing a lot about it elsewhere as well. Apparently a great natural source of vit D & vit A ... I read in one post of a Mama rubbing the fermented CLO on her baby's bum so it will get absorbed through the skin so her DD would get the vitamins that way instead of having to ingest it since they weren't starting solids yet. I thought that was a good idea!
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Oh, and Megan, what type of FCLO do you use? I've seen capsules online... might help with the nasty taste you mentioned?
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I use green pastures FCLO but I would NEVER rub it on anybody... it smells (and tastes!) like dead, rotted animal, and I'm not exaggerating one tiny bit. I have to force myself to take it - i mix it with grapefruit juice and it's still horrible. And no, I don't torture Milo with it. You smell it after you've taken it and it gets stuck in your throat and nasal passages so you can't get rid of the flavor or smell for a while. It's awful. But the bottle I bought is $50 and right now I just can't waste that money. If we had more expendable income I'd throw it away and buy capsules, but I just can't. And I can't throw it away and not take anything b/c that's like throwing $50 in the trash :( Unless you like drinking rotted animal juice, please buy the capsules even if they're more expensive in the long run!!
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LOL! Ok, you convinced me! DH is already annoyed that I won't brush my teeth with toothpaste very often. Don't think he'd tolerate it if I smelled like a dead fish (and I wouldn't like it, either).
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you could use baking soda to brush your teeth... I do that sometimes
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Oh geez, I wouldn't throw it out either! Good to know though, capsules it is! I guess if I wanted to rub it on Arthur I could break a capsule.
Toothpaste, I'm using Natures Gate sls/fluoride free toothpaste atm.
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We also discussed an IgG test for both Arthur & Charles to see if we can pinpoint specific food sensitivity triggers, but we probably won't do that until next visit (good thing too - cause this was all starting to get pretty expensive )
He's also a very experienced NAET practitioner http://www.naet.com/ He mentioned perhaps doing some NAET treatments in the future for both boys if needed, but again, we can cross that bridge later as it comes
Just wanted to say thanks for posting everything you did about your practicioner, he sounds awesome. FOr some feedback on the above, I have followed through with both for Kai. I spent a small fortune on NAET and it did not help him much :-\ In fact, once he was "cleared" of everything he still was sensitive as ever to the things he was "cleared" of. My practicioner was properly trained by Nambuipad, but she mostly just treated foods and some hormones. I would not waste the time and evergy again there are more fruiftul avenues ot pursuse such as biochemical imbalances. These are so real and pertinent to one's digestion, and need to be corrected with supplmentation if out of whack.
As for IGG, be very careful. It only gives useful info for a small subset of people and under controlled circumstances. We paid $400 for the tests for Kai and they showed nothing. >:(
Unless one has been exposed to a wide range of foods in and decent quantities, then it may be useful, and even then this test assumes that the IGG antiobdy is being produced as a negative reaction to the food. Realisticially the IGG antibody response this is only a pathway for say 1/4 of all food intolerant people. My Kai had not eaten enough dairy gluten or salicylates within the 6 weeks before the test, and so it does not tell one anything for these groups... and also, his food intolerance pathway is not an IGG response, it is more about the functionality of his liver and ability to produce digestive enzymes and all the other things needed for a healthy gut... the root being his zinc/copper imbalances and also a condition called Pyroluria (which depletes the body of B6 and zinc). No amount of NAET, chiro or anything can change those things for Kai.
I would also put it out there to anyone with kiddies with digestive issues to ask for a triple faeces test for parasites. (This is the most accurate test, other tests show false negatives as they aren;t cultred for long enough). All this time Kai has had a blastocystis hominis infection and it COULD be a major contributor to his gut health, food intolerances and reflux, along with his biochemical imbalances. We won't know until he is treated and testws show he is clear of the parsite to see the real effects.
Merry Christmas everyone!!!!
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Thanks for that Eloise... and for your thoughts about the Igg/NAET. I agree, it can get very costly, and as you say, if there's something out of whack with their systems, no amount of NAET ect will help without proper supplementation/healing.
I would also put it out there to anyone with kiddies with digestive issues to ask for a triple faeces test for parasites. (This is the most accurate test, other tests show false negatives as they aren;t cultred for long enough). All this time Kai has had a blastocystis hominis infection and it COULD be a major contributor to his gut health, food intolerances and reflux, along with his biochemical imbalances. We won't know until he is treated and testws show he is clear of the parsite to see the real effects.
Is this the same as the Microbiological Stool testing? ND said it would test for parasites... or could the one we're doing show false negatives?
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Totally OT, but Rebecca, is Arthur wearing boots in your avatar? How cute is that?
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Oh, so much Christmas stuff on my mind I forgot to post this: Last night I gave Arthur a hunk of Roast Beef (like 3 inch x3 inch cube) to gum on. He loved it, and NO PUKING ;D So this morning I tried it again. He was doing great with it - then I tried to give him a sip from his cup that I mixed some BM & probiotics in. Within a few minutes he threw up his beef and the milk/probiotics. Dinner tonight, he had his Turkey drumstick bone with another hunk of roast beef and he was totally fine. So I'm wondering if it was the probiotics mixed with his food all along causing problems. Maybe his body can't handle all of that at once? I know NCM suggests probiotics/probiotic food with each meal, but maybe he's not there yet? ... I have 3 pots of soup stock on the go from the ginormous Turkey we had today, so I think I will try him on a bit of bone broth in the next few days and give him a bit of beef to see where it gets us. The digestive enzymes i ordered have shipped, so I'm hoping we can start those soon too... We'll see...
The OAT test can only be shipped Mon-Wed, so he's got his little pee bag on overnight to catch the sample. It looked sooo uncomfortable :-\
You ladies said the stool sample was easy to get from the diaper, right? I'm just worried that because his poops are still so liquidy, alot of it absorbs into the diaper, kwim? I put a diaper liner in his CD tonight in the hopes it will catch more of the poop so I can take a better sample.
The FedEx stuff for these samples is a PITA. I guess since we're sending urine/stool over the border there's all this extra stuff to fill out ::)
Posted as you posted Erin, LOL, YESSSS!!! Someone gave us those boots last year for Charles!! Adorable, eh?! I kinda love them! They even have plaid lining! I'll be sad the day he grows out of them. ;)
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OMG plaid lining? That is beyond cute. :)
That's really good news about the beef! My mom is making us roast beef this week when we visit, might have to try to give James a piece -- but yes, I could see how all of that mixed together might be too much for him to handle. And yum, turkey broth! Didn't host any holidays this year so we haven't had any turkey broth! IDK about the stool sample, the only time I had one tested I just brought the diaper to the doctor, but they were testing for blood so that was a very different test. Hope he sleeps ok with the pee bag on.
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For stool samples check if the poo isn't allowed tobe contaminated by wee... I had to catch mine from him naked, it was a real hassle.
the triple faeces test is 96% accurate as you need to submit 3 stool sanmples over 5 days and then they culture them for much longer, sometimes it is very hard to find the parasites.... hence the triple faeces test is the only way to go.... I have spoken to alot of people in the know and they all say triple faeces test is the only way to go. Our medical system offers free parasite tests, but they are less accurate and can lead to false negatives due to the shorter cultring times and two samples are submitted. I know many people online who got false negatives and then later did the triple feaces test with positive results.
Probtiocs on their own are much ore effective than taken with meals... and also on small amounts over the day is more effective than single dosing.
Yay about your boy eating beef!!!!!!
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humm.. ok so maybe I don't have the triple test. Ours is only 2 samples, one has to be frozen for shipment, the other has to be refridgerated. The frozen sample has to first be mixed well with some other liquid in the test tube, then frozen overnight and shipped. I'l have to ask about the triple test you mention, thank you for the suggestion. :-*
Yes, we usually give Ds2 his probiotics on their own without food. I was just trying to get some extra in him during meal times and I thought it might help him digest the food he was eating - guess I was wrong on that one.
Eloise, I wanted to ask you, when do you typically dose Kai w/ zinc - and how much zinc is appropriate for a l/o? Does he take the pill, or do you have to mash it up and mix it with something? I mentioned zinc to our ND but he wanted to start with the digestive enzyme supplement + up probiotics first before going to zinc for him. From what I've been reading though, I really do feel the zinc plays a much more complex role.
Erin, definitely give James some roast beef! It kept Arthur entertained for at least 15 minutes! He sucked the roast dry of all its juices and I'm sure managed to get a few little chunks down. That should help him with his Iron too :D
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So this mornings first pee sample was a bust. The bag leaked everywhere overnight. ::) I managed to get another small sample this morning after his first feed so I hope it was enough.
For those of you who have already done stool samples - did you need a big sample? I could only manage to get a small amount for each test, maybe 1/8 tsp each jar. Since his poops are still completely liquid fairly small it was so hard to do. Hopefully it was enough ??? Maybe I'm just being paranoid, LOL. These tests are so expensive, I don't want to get a call saying we didn't do it right. :P
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Rebecca - ours had a fill line you had to get to... did yours have one too? We had to use three different poops to fill the three bottles so it took us a couple days. We did the frozen one first followed by the refrigerated ones.
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Ya, our tests have a fill line too... but there was no way were were getting to it with the one poop. I thought it had to be from one poop? Honestly, the instructions that came with the kits are garbage. These kits are made for kids/adults, not babies. :-\ I guess I'll just keep adding to the frozen sample then. I called Fedex and they aren't doing any pick ups until Wednesday because of the holidays, so I guess I have a few days to collect. It's just so hard to gather the poop samples - most of it ends up being absorbed into the diaper :-\
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we did each vial with one poop, so three poops total. I hope you get enough :-\
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Me too... :-\ I guess since Arthur isn't really on solids it makes a difference in the type of poops I'm dealing with.. there's absolutely no solid consistency yet. I managed to get another 1/4 tsp to ad to the frozen sample I have, but it's barely even covering the bottom of the jar...
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Could you maybe line his diaper with something non-absorbent, something like plastic wrap or a bag? Not sure how you'd get enough otherwise!
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Don't know if it'd be useful, but I found by accident that if I changed my kids before they were done pooping, just me wiping the anus seemed to stimulate them to poop more. (I learned this the hard way after going thru 4 or 5 diapers in a row. Twice. With EACH girl!)
Anyway, if you can catch him early on, maybe you can try some anal stimulation and see if it gets him to make more if he goes a bit at a time instead of all at once?
This is one of the stranger pieces of advice I've passed on..... :D
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Ooh, good idea Deb, I've done that a few times lately too, quite by accident as well!
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Yes, great idea Deb!! I read that quickly last night!! It reminded me of when we rescued an abandonned newborn kitten. We had to stimulate it after each feed like the Mama cat would have done to get it to go. (glamourous, I know :P)
So this morning I was really worried about not getting enough for the sample. I called the Lab and they said it NEEDS to be at the fill line for proper cultures. At the rate I was going I was going to be at this for a month!! The woman I spoke to said I could keep adding to the same sample for up to 14 days, but that was it.
My mission this morning was to get poop!! :P So after following Arthur around with a tupperware container and a wet cloth to try and stimulate him to go all morning, I managed to collect from 3 poops - enough to get to our quota. Geez, I never want to to THAT again! Hopefully by the time we have to retest he'll be on solids so I won't be dealing with this liquid goop. The things we do for our kids, eh?!
How did you ladies do over the holidays with your dietary restrictions?? We had a very "gaps friendly" dinner. We did have potatoes for guests, but everything else (including desserts) were GAPS legal. :D I tried making a quiche w/butternut squash crust from the health, home & happiness website for xmas morning breakfast - SOOO good!
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Mmmm! I'll have to try that quiche recipe. I've had pretty good luck with the recipes from that site so far. We did the raspberry scones from there (for my mom and me, everyone else had cinnamon rolls which is our traditional Christmas morning breakfast.) They were very good, too. And we had a totally GAPS friendly dinner--pork tenderloin with an apple sauce, butternut squash puree, roasted cauliflower, green beans. I was going to make rolls for everyone else when I did the cinnamon rolls, but ended up messing them up (Not sure DH believes it was an accident--I've had serious baby-brain and been doing a terrible job cooking. I left the salt out of the dough (which we caught before I baked the cinnamon rolls and salted them and they ended up being ok), and then I had them in the oven, rising, which was still a little warm, but had it programed to turn on in a bit. Well, of course Henry woke up that night during all that and I was in his room for 30 min trying to get him back to sleep when the oven turned on and started cooking the rolls, with the towel still on them, and the oven door open. They didn't stand a chance.
And for dessert coconut flour brownies I had left over from a party last week. I'd frozen them so I wouldn't eat them all (except they actually taste really good frozen, too).
My biggest issue with food over the holidays is that Henry just can't seem to handle me eating nuts. He doesn't get a rash or any clear sign. But every time I do, he wakes up a lot at night, and doesn't take great naps. So the almond flour that I made things with and the Lara bar DH put in my stocking have been wreaking havoc on our sleep the last two days. It's a little sad to not even be able to have some of the allowed "treats".
But in happier news--his poops are looking mucus free! And we go in Thurs for a weight check--which I'm really hopeful that he'll be at 15 pounds--we hit that on our home scale this morning, so I'm hoping it holds. That will be a 2 pound gain in 1.5 months!!!! He is LOVING his solids. I can't force him to BF more, but he will eat 3 solid meals a day that are probably around 3/4 cup each.
Glad you got the poop, Rebecca. It will be a lot easier if you can get going on solids before the next time.
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hmmm, I wonder if it's the nuts that are still keeping Milo up at night?? I've been eating lots of nuts since starting the gaps diet - they are my go-to snack. I think maybe I'll have to stop eating them for a while and see what happens.
We went to a cranial-sacral therapist this morning for Milo's reflux on advice of the naturopath we are seeing. I was hopeful (and still am just a tiny bit ::) ) but I think this lady was a load of crock. I'm not sure that I'm saying that ALL c/s therapists are hokey, but this one sure seemed like it. She's not the particular one that the naturopath recommended, but the one he wants Milo to see is 2 hrs away and uber-expensive :-\ I guess we'll wait and see how Milo does over the next few days, though he's already thrown up since the visit ::)
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Could be the nuts or even just certain nuts? My DS can't tolerate almonds and peanuts used to be a problem but he loves pistachios and cashews and those seem to sit fine with him. Otherwise, what about roasted chickpeas? So yummy!
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hmm, funny you say almonds and peanuts. I used to think he had a problem with peanuts and haven't eaten them since he was little bitty until I started gaps about a month ago, and almonds gave me headaches when I was pregnant with him and I haven't eaten them until the past few days - I have a headache today and I was wondering what in the world caused it - I had almonds this morning!! No more almonds for me!!
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Yes, I agree w/ Karen about only certain nuts causing problems. I know peanuts bug Arthur. He seems ok with all others. Although, I guess peanuts technically are a legume, but either way, I would perhaps do a trial and error with certain nuts before ruling them out completely.
Megan, I remember you mentioning waaay back when that you thought Almond milk bugged Milo. It could be the Almonds for sure.
Megan & Kim - You could try cashews for a while and see where that gets you. Cashews are low sals and good on gaps, so IMO you would be good on both fronts if you were worried. Even though Arthur is good when I eat almonds, almond butter (and cashew butter) is rather expensive here, so I've been opting for Sunflower Seed butter and its been great.
I know Larabars makes a Cashew bar thats just cashews and dates (it has an orange wrapper). That could be a quick nut snack if it's only certain nuts that are bothersome, but I guess you would have to watch for a reaction.
My other thought on the nuts is the phytic acid. I have no clue if it could be passed to BM, but since pretty much everything else passes to BM, I would think phytic acid could too. Technically nuts (seeds, legumes, beans ect) *should* be soaked/sprouted/fermented to break down the phytic acid and allow for easier digestion. I don't think NCM talks about it much in GAPS, but if you read the NT cookbook and other resources you'll learn more about phytic acid. TBH, the nut soaking thing is something I"m lax on... soaking nuts and then toasting them again on super low heat would just be yet another cooking thing on my "to do" list. I know that Almond flour seems to be difficult for Charles to digest, and I'm assuming it's b/c of the phytic acid. I do make sure to soak any beans/legumes prior to cooking though, and I've noticed Charles can digest those now (before they would just pass right through...)
Speaking of Charles, he seems to be doing much better with the sauerkraut. :D I guess super slow introduction really is key with those strong detoxifying foods. Yesterday and today he's had a small amount of sauerkraut with dinner and it hasn't bothered him. Yay! Also, tmi, but he's had really great poops the past few days. He's fully daytime potty trained now so I can actually see his formed poops in the toilet (instead of mushed in his diapers :P) I'm really happy we're seeing progress with him!
OH!, and I forgot to mention, I had a small amount of goat cheese on Christmas & Boxing Day and it hasn't bothered Arthur. That's a bonus! I can't find the words to describe how delicious the goat cheese was!! I guess when you go without certain foods for a long time it really is a treat when you can have them again, even if it is in a very small amount!
FX that Henry has been gaining weight, Kim! That's terrific he's doing so well with solids! and HOORAY for non-mucous poops!!
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Rebecca--I totally agree about the cheese. I also went ahead and had a little cheese on Christmas Eve and unless its responsible for the poor sleep, I haven't seen any issues. Since nuts in the past have had the same reaction, I'm assuming its that and not the dairy. Although I really need to get him back on track and then try the dairy again. I pushed it with too many things because I wanted to not feel so deprived over the holiday.
That's interesting about certain nuts causing problems. I'm pretty sure I've had periods where I only had cashews, and still had problems, but I also know that once I start eating nuts, I eat too many because they really are such an easy snack. I do need to try soaking them, though. I haven't done that. I just wish the almond flour was okay because it opens up some other baking options. But I guess too many baked goods aren't necessarily as good.
My first batch of saurkrat (successful) is starting to taste pretty good. Its only a couple weeks old, but it has a little tang to it. I'm pretty happy that it worked!
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I just wish the almond flour was okay because it opens up some other baking options. But I guess too many baked goods aren't necessarily as good.
Have you been experimenting w. coconut flour? It can be a little tricky at first, but I'm really enjoying baking with it. I've been using it over almond flour b/c Charles can digest the coconut flour no problem. A plus side on the coconut flour is that it's also cheaper then the almond flour (at least here anyways) A little bit goes a long way. You can make a basic "bread" w/ 1/2 cup coconut flour, 6 eggs and 1/4 cup of coconut oil (or other suitable fat)... To make it a little sweeter, add some cinnamon/ginger/tich of salt and some mashed bananas and you have a pretty nice "treat".
Yay!! Sauerkraut can be a little intimidating at first, but I love making it now! I almost always have a batch fermenting on the counter (assuming DH can find the organic cabbages when he goes to the city)
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I probably should start soaking nuts cause DS loves to eat them and I'd prefer he get the full benefits of them as he's a picky eater. How does that work? Do I soak them and then toast and store them? He mainly eats cashews and pistachios...
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Karen - http://www.wellnesstips.ca/grain%20preparation.htm An excerpt: "With whole grains, nuts, seeds and legumes, soak them in filtered water with a bit of unpasteurized apple cidre vinegar (Omega Nutrition is a good brand) or organic lemon juice for 7 or 8 hours, pour off the soak water, rinse and cook. Usually this will reduce the cooking time considerably. With steel cut or rolled oats, soak as before, but cook in the soak water. With nuts and seeds such as walnuts, sunflower or sesame, spread them on a cookie sheet after soaking, and put them in the oven under the very LOWEST bake setting, and dry them. Baking at high temperatures will cause the rancidity of the polyunsaturated oils in the nuts so keep the temperature low. When you store the nuts or seeds, I suggest you do not put a lid on the jar, because if all the moisture has not been removed they will go moldy very quickly. I wasted a few batches before figuring this out! Then they should probably be stored in the fridge, as those polyunsaturated fats are delicate. "
HtH :)
Oh, and Megan, forgot to comment about your treatment with Milo... that's frustrating, eh? I can't remember if I told you about this, but a friend of mine's DD is also having these same issues and they tried going to an osteopath. Within a minute of the osteopath working on her she pooped! (after she was constipated for a week!!) This osteopath believed that she was positioned in an odd way in the womb which made her right side underdeveloped, causing blockages. Even her right tear duct doesn't function properly and gets all gooped up. They are still working with her but it's pretty interesting to hear about the progress. I do think you have to find the right practitioner though. I mean, heck, I went through 3 ND's to find this 4th one that I feel we can work with. Depending on how it goes with the dietary changes/supplements ect, maybe you could save up to see the uber expensive one down the line? It does seem like you're on the right track though working with the diet. Has Milo's probiotics arrived yet?
Jenn, are you still reading along? How's little Emily's tummy doing?
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That's how we do our nuts, more or less, although I also add salt to them when I spread them on the cookie sheet (and sometimes garlic - YUM!). You can also use a food dehydrator. I do put them in containers with lids after I know they are VERY dry, but they don't last long here. I mix them with raisins, pumpkin seeds, and sometimes chocolate or carob chips to make a trail mix, and the girls love the sweet and salty together. I know some folks also use a sprinkle of sugar to make sweeter nuts.
I can't eat almonds w/o a mild allergic reaction, BTW, but all other nuts so far seem to be fine, so ITA that some nuts can be problematic while others aren't so much. It does make the whole almond flour thing pretty impractical. I could always make flour from other nuts, but I already have plenty of things going on in the kitchen and really don't want to add something else. :)
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Would that work with pistachios too if I shell them first?
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Wouldn't see why not.
When I put the nuts or seeds in the oven on low, I often leave it on overnight, or I'll put them in in the morning all day and have a warm oven already if i want to bake some chicken or fish for supper.
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Great maybe I'll pick some nuts up today (I assume organic raw ones are best?), soak them this morning and leave them in oven overnight, thanks
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I have done some coconut flour baking--I make pumpkin waffles our of just coconut flour, and the brownies were just coconut flour. I haven't tried any breads and the muffins I've made have been a little dissappointing. But I guess I should experiment more.
I forgot to mention--I got a dehydrator for CHristmas! My mom totally spoils us at CHristmas time and got me the Excalibur one I was looking at, so I'm really excited to try some things in it. I may try doing some nuts in there. And I want to dry veggies--zuchini with a little seasoning makes a really fun snack. My brother had made me some a couple months ago, but now I can do my own! And its a nice change because all I can find in the stores are fruits, which I really shouldn't eat so much of.
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We use our dehydrator to make fruit leather, too. Still haven't tried jerky on it, but definitely on the "to-attempt" list!
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I have been following along since my last post and learning heaps ladies thanks.
Not sure if you managed to get the samples in the end Rebecca, but we have been doing elimination communication and getting 90% of poops in the potty. I find if I do the butt wipe it stimulates the poop and then the sitting on the potty position helps him to go. Worth a try maybe.
I am looking to replace the probiotics we have been using . I am looking at the Klaire labs ones. Do you guys do capsules? At the moment we have powders.
Also do the klaire labs come refridgerated?
I tried to make some bone broth for B with the turkey too and DH did a really annoying thing. He got in at 3am from work and saw the oven on and thought it was an accident and turned it off!!! I got a new slow cooker for xmas and was cooking it slow for 24hrs. That meant the turkey was sat on the kitchen side for 5hrs befor I noticed so I figured it wouldn't be any good. I will have to get some more chciken and try again. This time I will have to warn DH not to touch it.
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Still reading along yes! Im in the middle of reading the GAPS book right now trying to learn all this!
Emiy has been doing much better but there are clearly still some issues :( My hope is that we can 100% be on the GAPS diet for the month of January and then I can see what differences I notice in Emily, myself and Ethan also! Then if her tummy tolerates it, venture into some solids starting in February :-\
I am always reading along, just never seem to be able to actually sit down and post!
((((((hugs))))))
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Rebecca - yes, we just got his probiotics but I haven't given them to him yet b/c it was time to switch to the grapefruit seed extract (we got them at the same time) and I wanted to make sure that if he reacts I know what he is reacting to. So after much dragging my heels, I've decided that once again, you are probably right... I stopped all solids today, except at dinner he was practically begging for food so I spoon fed him some broth (something he's never taken before!!) I also have decided to try 3 days of zantac to see if it helps his nights and today was the first day. I know that's adding more medication rather than less, but if he's screaming at night b/c of acid pain (which is what I think it is), I have to do something. I am hopeful (yet again ::) ::) ) for a good night now that he's not digesting any solids and he shouldn't have any pain. If it doesn't improve within 3 days though I'm going to stop the zantac b/c I HATE him even more medication :( :( :(
Have you tried giving Arthur any more solids without the probiotics at the same time? Does he still throw up?
Deb - I could be wrong, but I think I read on some post somewhere (might even have been here) that you are pretty well-versed in intestinal candida overgrowth? What are the symptoms that someone might feel - does it cause stomach pain or anything? Milo has it, but I always feel his pain is more the reflux than lower down, but I would be very interested to know how someone that knows that's the problem would describe what it feels like... do you know? TIA :)
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KM - Yes, I managed to get the samples. After a funny morning of chasing a bare bum Arthur around with a wet cloth and a container to catch the poops! LOL! That's great the EC is working so well for B! I've read great things about it.
The Klaire labs infant probiotics we use for the boys only comes in a powder I believe. I mix it with a bit of expressed BM, but you can mix it in water as well. The ones in pill form are moreso for Adults, but it depends on the exact ones you order. I believe the Vital Immune I just ordered comes in a capsule and that specific probiotic is supposed to help with allergy like responses as well as building the immune system. That I plan on breaking the capsule and mixing the powder in w/ bm or water as well. Any time I have ordered the Klaire labs I've sent a separate message to the seller requesting they ship w/ extra ice packs. They still arrive cool. They don't *need* to be refrigerated, but for maximum potency it's best to keep them refrigerated/cool so the bacterial cultures remain intact.
Funny about your DH and the soup stock!! If you like learning about healing foods, check out Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon. It's an amazing cookbook with tonnes of info on healing foods. :) It complements the GAPS program perfectly.
Jenn - Great to see you! I'm glad Emily is doing a bit better. Is her reflux still around? How's her poops? Fx you start to see more progress in January. :)
Kim - I posted a link on the Paleo Recipe thread w/ tips for baking with coconut flour. It might be helpful. I honestly used to hate coconut flour b/c I had such a tough time getting the moisture content right. Now that I've had some practice, I love using it. An ideal ratio for me is 1/2 c coconut flour to 6 eggs - that usually gives me good results. How exciting you got a dehydrator! I'm jealous!!
The Digestive Enzymes we ordered just arrived this afternoon. I plan on starting both boys on them in the morning. I"ll probably give Arthur 1/2 capsule at first just to make sure it doesn't bug him too much and then build up to the 1 capsule 3x/day. Megan, how do you find Milo on the enzymes you're giving him? Was there any sort of a reaction when you first started him on them?
FedEx picked up the OAT and stool tests today. Our next appt with the ND is Feb 15th to discuss the results since it can take up to 6 weeks for everything to be processed. That seems like SOOOO far away! Hopefully with the enzymes, vital immune and continuing the infant probiotics/diet over the next 6 weeks we'll see more progress.
Posting as you posted Megan, ((hugs)) poor Milo and poor Mama!! :( You guys have had a rough 10+ months. I really hope his tummy settles some more.
No, I really haven't been giving him solids. He wants them, so it's hard. I gave him some roast xmas and the day before which he was fine with, but it was a huge chunk that be basically sucked on, so I really don't know how much that can be considered a "solid" since I'm pretty sure it was mostly the juices. I tried a little bit of egg yolk the other day again and he threw up, so I decided that was enough. I think I want to wait until he's on the enzymes and increased probiotics for a bit and then I'll try again. I find too many things at once really messes with him, so I have to keep reminding myself "small steps".
I'm sure Deb will have more to say about the Candida, but what our ND said about it is that it can actually travel up the intestinal track, through the stomach, up the esophagus and even into the mouth (hence thrush). He believes Candida can be one of the major causes of reflux (in conjunction w/ the low zinc/low digestive enzymes) I think you told me Milo's gut has over 50% Candida overgrowth, right? If that's the case it really could be traveling through his whole system causing imbalances ??? I'm just theorizing, but it could definitely be playing a factor.
ETA - oh, and part of the problem with these kiddos is that they already have low stomach acid to begin with (contrary to mainstream thought of high acid causing reflux). Because of the low acid, these nasty bacterias are able to thrive and they are what's causing all of the issues. For sure give the meds another try if you think they might help, but I know that might make his stomach even less acidic... and he needs whatever acids he can produce to aid his digestion/fight the candida off... ???
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Just did a google Megan, this article was pretty decent: http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/candida.htm Read what he says about the link between candida, copper and thyroid function... (I think you mentioned Milo has low thyroid as well?? ) It's all connected to the bacterial imbalance.
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Hi there - I don't know if I'm "well-versed" in candida as much as I suffered from it, but what we did learn about it was that it lives in the whole body and as long as it's kept in balance and not overfed, things are usually OK. When it's out of balance, for whatever reason, it overgrows and interferes with digestion. And since it feeds off sugars, including those in starchy veg and grains and milk (so not just fruit and actual sugar and honey and so on), when you consume those foods, the yeast feed and produce CO2 in the gut, hence lots of gas and tummy pain. (Made the mistake of having a cookie and a bottle of ginger "beer" (really soda ::)) yesterday and OW OW OW!) So for me it's just one more reason to stay off the grains as much as possible.
Another problem is that too much candida can actually affect blood and brain chemistry, which is why there are behavioral and emotional symptoms along with physical symptoms of yeast in the body.
Oh, for digestion, Rebecca, you would be into this: http://www.bellatrixnutrition.com/. Yesterday on FB she was doing a slew of posts from a book she's reading about HCl and its role in helping digestion for those with low stomach acid. Here's one of her posts from yesterday: "Should you take Hydrochloric Acid supplementation? "Take the HCl challenge! Before the next meal you eat, take a hydrochloric acid supplement that contains at least 500 to 550 milligrams of betaine hydrochloride and about 150 milligrams of pepsin. After you’ve taken your first HCl tablet, notice how you feel. If you’re producing enough stomach acid, taking this supplement will cause you to feel a ...bit of pain or warmth in your stomach. You can relax—your stomach acid is sufficient to digest the food you’re eating. If you don’t notice any symptoms or any worsening of the symptoms you already have, increase your dose to two HCl tablets at the next meal. If you’re still symptom-free, or if the symptoms you’ve already experienced haven’t gotten any worse, continue upping your dose a tablet at a time. As soon as you feel a burning sensation or warmth, you know you’ve gone too far. Drop back to the previous dosage and continue taking the supplement as needed. You can work up to eight pills a day. After four months, you might experiment with reducing your HCl dosage. If you get good results, continue to reduce your intake of HCl until you are no longer taking it. If your symptoms return, go back to your previous dosage."
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So, if you have candida issues, since you can't ever kill it all off, does that mean that you will forever have to stay away from anything that can feed it? Or once its under control, can you then eat a little of the starchier things, as long as you don't eat so much that it gets out of control? I'm wondering if that is what we have going on (although Henry doesn't seem to have excessive gas or anything, so not really sure), but honestly, the idea of staying on this diet for the rest of his life seems pretty terrible. I know its fairly healthy, but its also a pretty difficult way to live sticking to it 100%.
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So, if you have candida issues, since you can't ever kill it all off, does that mean that you will forever have to stay away from anything that can feed it? Or once its under control, can you then eat a little of the starchier things, as long as you don't eat so much that it gets out of control? I'm wondering if that is what we have going on (although Henry doesn't seem to have excessive gas or anything, so not really sure), but honestly, the idea of staying on this diet for the rest of his life seems pretty terrible. I know its fairly healthy, but its also a pretty difficult way to live sticking to it 100%.
Well, NCM says that GAPS patients can never go back to the SAD or "normal" diet, for that reason. They will always have (to some degree) certain bad bacterias lurking in their systems since it's impossible to completely kill it off. Goal is to kill *most* of it off and repopulate with the good bacterias. The good bacterias then keep the bad ones in check (while the patient continues to follow a proper gaps diet) Which is why, as Deb said, they can "flare up" if you eat improper foods. Key is to keep them under control. In the very very later stages of this plan (think 2,3,4 years down the road) once the gut is completely healed, certain fermented/soaked/sprouted grains may be introduced. (I believe this part is outlined at the end of the "full gaps" diet link posted on the first page + in the book) Ultimately the goal is to heal all food intolerance triggers as the gut lining heals, but again, that can take years. Our ND says to aim for minimum 2 years to try and heal a leaky gut... sometimes it takes more, sometimes less... but I think it helps to have realistic expectations with it all and know that it will take a long time for the damage to be reversed.
Also, in the book, I'm not sure if you remember but NCM outlines certain cases where mental disorders seem to "pop up" in adolescents or adults who are going through a particularily stressful period in their lives ect. That is explained because their diet usually gets very bad around that time as well (sugar/carbs ect) so they are feeding the smaller populations of the bad bacteria in them, then those bad bacterias take over, iykwim?
I know NCM also says these patients almost always have to be on a probiotic/eat probiotic foods for life. The dosage doesn't have to be as high as the therapeutic levels we are using for healing, but enough to keep the "bad" bacterias under control.
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An afterthought, Kim - I can't remember, have you ever had H's stool tested for bacterial imbalances? The one we just got done was a Microbiological Stool test. These are the 2 tests NCM suggests for babies: "The two tests I would recommend are Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis from the Great Smokies Lab and Organic Acids Test from the Great Plains Laboratory. The stool analysis will show the gut flora composition, while the organic acids test (it is a urine test) will show what toxins the child’s gut flora is producing. Both tests are non-invasive and can be ordered directly from the laboratories. It would be best for you to work with a practitioner who can interpret those tests for you; please view the Certified GAPS Practitioner section to find a qualified practitioner"
Also Kim, you mentioned rash around your mouth, here's what NCM says: "Mouth is a heavily populated area of human body – it has its own microbial flora. In GAPS people it is often abnormal, dominated by pathogens. These pathogens spread outside the mouth and can cause rashes around that area of the face. Here is what I recommend:
1. Stop using all toothpaste and replace it with olive oil: dip your toothbrush into good quality cold-pressed olive oil and brush as usual; rinse with water. This is based on an Aurvedic procedure called ‘oil pull’ which has a good ability to detoxify the mouth and the rest of the body. Brush with olive oil twice a day.
2. After every meal and at bedtime open a capsule of good quality probiotic on your tongue and let the powder dissolve there. This way you will populate your mouth, throat and upper digestive tract with beneficial bacteria."
Also, just reading through this updated FAQ, tonnes of info on Candida, Megan. Also about grapefruit seed extract (apparently you have to watch for die-off - which could be what Milo's going through, as well as certain preservatives in the supplement can be harmful... )
Deb, there's info here about GAPS and hashimotos too if you're interested :) (16th question down I believe)
Here's the FAQ list with the most updated questions from Dec 2011 at the top: http://gapsdiet.com/uploads/FAQs_PDF.pdf
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Going to read thru some links posted when I get the chance, thanks for posting them!
Rebecca - I know that he needs stomach acid to digest food. I'm kinda thinking that's why we're going back to just BM for a while - to see if it's just tummy troubles from digesting foods or if it's something more. Last night wasn't *great* but it wasn't as bad as normal either. He usually wakes every 2 hours or more and if I don't feed him it will escalate to screaming like I'm murdering him and he will keep going for HOURS until I feed him. Last night we managed to feed every 4 hours and he woke once more - an hour after his first feed. The difference was that he was crying instead of screaming and would lay down rather than thrash around. I actually managed to get him back to sleep within 45 minutes and no screaming and no nursing. That in itself is improvement. I guess I can't expect him to go seamlessly from waking every 2 hours to sttn, so i'm hopeful.
he doesn't have 50% yeast specifically, it was just that he had only 50% of the markers for good bacteria, so the rest is populated by a combination of unknown (and untested for) pathogens. As it is unrealistic to test for the thousands of different strains they could be, they only tested for a few specific pathogens and yeast was the only one that was somewhat high. And we are starting VERY small with the GSE. We are doing less than one drop, though it's hard to measure exactly. I think I gave him about 1/5 of a drop, but it has to be so diluted that I had to mix it with an ounce of water and then just let him drink what I thought was about 1/5 of it. It's very strong stuff.
Thanks Deb. I don't think it's yeast that's waking him up at night, and what you describe makes me even more sure. He almost never has gas (though I guess he could still have stomach pain).
Is anyone else on the diet having trouble with hunger? I don't know how b/c I'm eating lots of dense foods (obviously) but I still get so hungry at night and it's hard to find gaps-approved foods that are palatable (and easy!) in the middle of the night. It makes me wonder if Ellen has been grumpy lately b/c she's hungry too??
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I find I am MUCH less hungry if I make sure to have enough good fats. Very filling, and usually for hours. This was an issue for us on Body Ecology till I got over my fat phobia. Lol
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I find I am MUCH less hungry if I make sure to have enough good fats. Very filling, and usually for hours. This was an issue for us on Body Ecology till I got over my fat phobia. Lol
Me too... :) You really have to embrace those healthy saturated fats. I actually love this diet, and don't really get hungry so long as I'm following it properly.
If you're hungry at night it's probably b/c you're getting overtired and your body just craves the sugars for quick energy. I know its probably super hard right now, but try and get as much rest as possible. When DH is on night shifts he craves the sugars too. I'm positive it's his body out of balance/craving the quick energy. I always keep hard boiled eggs in the fridge for a quick snack. At night if I'm still hungry, eggs + bacon are a staple here :P They are quick, easy and loaded with the nutrients we need. Avocado is super important too.. I easily eat a whole avocado/day. Have you tried making almond bread or coconut bread? That can also be a quick snack at night too.
I do think its a good idea to go back to just BM if you can for a while Megan. If you can't EBF and you find Milo is still hungry, maybe you can take a look at the Weston A Price Hypoallergenic FF I posted a few pages back for Jutka. here's a video tutorial on how to make it and FAQ sheet. You should have most of the ingredients on hand - bone broth, FCLO, probiotics, liver ect. I know they say it's ok to use whey, but I would still be wary of traces of dairy/lactose/casein.. so maybe you could keep the whey outt?As long as Milo is getting mostly BM and just a little bit of the homemade Hypoallergenic FF it might help his digestion? IDK for sure though ???
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well, I do get lots of fat... we eat eggs and avocado for breakfast, dark meat fatty chicken and vegetables for lunch, and varied dinner, last night it was roast with veggies. I eat nuts for snacks (or used to anyway ::) ) and some fruit for snacks too. I haven't tried baking with substitute flours yet, but maybe that would be a good idea for nighttime snacks. That and I guess I could try higher fat intake later in the day, as writing it out helps me realize I'm getting way more fats earlier in the day than later.
I'll check out that FF, thanks! I don't know that I'd add the FCLO though, I gotta be honest. It's truly horrible, like I said. :)
Oh, and I meant to tell you. The digestive enzymes are a no-go for either one of us. They give me a bad stomach ache and I'm pretty sure they did the same for Milo.
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I've tried some regular OTC enzymes in the past and not been thrilled with them. Apparently papain and I don't get along. :( I haven't yet tried HCl, but I'm due for a trip to the organic market soon - they sell organic ground dark meat turkey! :) - and their supplement section is AWESOME, so odds are they'll have some I can try.
I don't know what to do about iodine myself; with my Hashimoto's it's supposed to be contra-indicated, and my endocrinologist is useless about most of the supplement info out there. She didn't even know about avoiding iodine.... ::) .... or gluten....
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Megan, only time for a quick post, but before I ordered the Similase Jr for Arthur I did a comparison of the Similase Jr to the Klaire Labs digestive Enzymes (b/c I wasn't sure which one I wanted to order, even though the ND suggesdted Similase Jr) ANNYWAYS, the Klaire Labs ones are WAY stronger then the Similase Jr. Could be that they are too potent for your situation? Our ND did say that you need Children/Infant specific digestive enzymes for babies. I gave Arthur 1/2 tab this morning mixed in BM and he's been fine so far. I gave C a full cap. He's also fine so far.
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Hi girls, I'm sorry I haven't posted in a while - Christmas just been very busy! Hope you all had a good time.
Just finished reading everything and going to comment on some ideas:
Craniosacral therapy - we have also been to see one and I thought she was amazing - I suppose it really depens on who you get. Though I have to say, I don't think it helped a lot with allergies but it did wonders to my 2 year old Peter who was a very difficult birth (vacuum)
Candida - after reading all this, I think Julia must have an issue with candida as she is VERY windy. (I'm wondering whether I myself havei issues with it, too and the rest of the family) Though sometimes I think would it just be the fibre from the vegetables? If she gets less fibre, she is also less windy (but would still pass wind, especially prior to pooing) We should get the results of the comprehensive digestive stool analysis back very soon so will hopefully find out. (Though, I am very worried that it won't be right as I took some stuff out of her diet a few days before sending it and apparently, it can change things... I also got the poo from her nappy and it would have had some contact with pee)
probiotics - we just got Klair Labs infant thier biotic today, going to start using it tomorrow. I suppose I will just add some to each of her bottles, just hard to know how much to start with. Are the other ones you ordered any better, Rebecca?
On the whole, Julia is doing so much better. She is pooing on her own most of the time and her poos have changed so much in amount, smell and consistency. Before the diet, I think food just went right through her without being digested or absorbed, it pretty much came out as it went in with a lot of wind as a companion. :( Now she poos less, it's not as smelly and looks like it's actually been digested. She is not as distressed when she poos, though she still looks uncomfortable.
Her skin keeps flaring though, even though we used some steroids on it. :(
She still only takes chicken stock, chicken, swede and butternut squash + HAF and she was 1 year old yesterday! :) It's going to be such a long haul, ladies, won't it? :( It's good to have some companions!
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If there's gut damage I'm not sure if fiber can irritate the gut? And some veg just produce gas; I can't eat crucifers/brassicas AT ALL unless they're cooked or fermented, and even then not always, because I get horrific gas from those. (I miss broccoli and cauliflower! :'()
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Happy birthday Julia! It IS going to be a long haul, I agree!! And funny how you describe her poos is exactly like what changed with Milo when we started gaps!! Though he had a really runny one today - I guess b/c he only had milk yesterday!
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probiotics - we just got Klair Labs infant thier biotic today, going to start using it tomorrow. I suppose I will just add some to each of her bottles, just hard to know how much to start with. Are the other ones you ordered any better, Rebecca?
We still are using the Klaire Labs infant probiotic for the boys. I did order the Vital Immune to compliment it though, but that hasn't arrived yet. Will post about it when it does. :)
RE: Candida, I think we hear a lot about it b/c it's one of the pathogenic bacterias that has a name and is usually seen in high amounts. As Megan said, there's litterally billions (if not trillions) of bacterias in the gut (good & bad) so it's impossible to put a name on all of them. Bad bacteria is bad bacteria... whether its candida or not, and ALL of the bad bacterias can cause these imbalances, digestive upsets, ect ect ect. I think the key is to realize our little ones are out of whack. In a healthy gut the good bacterias are able to control the bad ones from spreading and causing too much damage. Unfortunately our bubs got more of the bad stuff then the good... so we have to balance all of that out, which will take a long time.
Yes, I agree, it's going to be a long haul. I was thinking about that today actually. I'm just glad we know about this now and are able to take positive steps. I'm forever thankful I came across that Mercola article back in the summer that made me find this program. I've been talking to a few Mamas on the GAPS FB page, many of whom are dealing with Autistic children, developmental delays, failure to thrive ect ect all steming from a leaky gut. They all have said to me at one point or another that they wished they knew about all of this when their children were babies. So I think in a certain way we're lucky to have all of this information so we can work on fixing this now before the toxicity takes an even stronger hold. When I was worried about Arthur not eating, I then thought about a Mama with a 4 yr/old non-verbal autistic child that refuses to eat anything but white bread and bananas and she told me she wished she had known about these dietary changes early on and knew to EBF longer... makes you appreciate where we're at, kwim?
Anyways, I think we're all on the right track :-* :-*
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Technically, candida isn't a bacteria. It's a fungus. That's why abx kill off bacteria and leave the candid to flourish. :)
Yes, that's right..... there's a fungus among us. ;D
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Technically, candida isn't a bacteria. It's a fungus. That's why abx kill off bacteria and leave the candid to flourish. :)
Yes, that's right..... there's a fungus among us. ;D
Thanks for clearifying :)
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I do get lots of fat... we eat eggs and avocado for breakfast, dark meat fatty chicken and vegetables for lunch, and varied dinner, last night it was roast with veggies. I eat nuts for snacks (or used to anyway ) and some fruit for snacks too. I haven't tried baking with substitute flours yet, but maybe that would be a good idea for nighttime snacks. That and I guess I could try higher fat intake later in the day, as writing it out helps me realize I'm getting way more fats earlier in the day than later.
I've been hungry on this diet as well, inspite of feeling like I'm eating quite a bit of fat. Unfortunately, the best cure I've found is to eat a lot of nuts and dried fruits, but those haven't been going over well with Henry, so instead I'm left feeling kind of hungry a lot. It has gotten better the more things I've learned to make, but at night, I just want a snack, not a meal, and its hard to find things that are totally "legal."
And I do agree that being tired probably has a lot to do with it. We're not sleeping well at all ATM, and I've been REALLY snacky--just want things to munch on all the time, which is hard when you can't just grab quick little snacks. I've tried carrots and celery, but they just don't quite satisfy that craving.
Honestly, I'm in a slump right now with this whole diet and really wishing I could take a break. Too bad I can't stand the thought of giving Henry corn syrup laden formula (and if I did wean him, I'd be really upset with myself in a week or two once I work through this slump.) Seriously, holiday time is just not fun. I guess Ican see a lot of point to making your whole family do this together, whether they need it or not. Mine aren't and its kind of hard to watch them (and cook for them) eating all my favorites.
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oh kim you describe it so well and it sounds like we are in just the same boat! I'm kinda in a slump with it all too, so I know just what you're talking about!! I'm pretty much doing the diet for my family, though DH eats whatever he wants when he's on his own... but I don't cook different for him. I hope we both get past this slump soon!!
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Hugs to you guys!
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Not much computer time today, but sending ((hugs))... xox :-* I couldn't imagine doing all of this without it being something we all do as a family. You girls are really putting so much effort into your children's health... it's amazing. Hang in there.
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((((((hugs)))))) Its hard! I seriously just came in here to have a good vent about this!
I just don't know if I can do it. I have modified so much of my diet towards being a heck of a lot more GAPS friendly but just taking that final step and actually fully starting it is killing me.
It just seems like so much work to get sorted out right now but then I want to help Emily and I know it would be great for Ethan but I'm selfish. I just honestly am :-[ I don't want to dedicate my few spare seconds a day to trying to figure this all out. I just want to go back to my naive little spot where I could eat everything and not think about how all this crap affects everything :P
Ok vent over. Happy New Year! I will try to suck it up now!
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Happy New Year!
I totally understand you, girls. When I was breastfeeding Julia, I was always hungry even though I ate rice and potatoes (that's probably why she was still unsettled) but I didn't know about GAPs then. It would have killed me not to even have those! It must be so hard. But you're doing great and I wish I could swap with you and go back to breastfeeding. Remember, this won't last forever and it's worth it if you can breastfeed.
So a bit of an update from us. We got KlairLabs and started using it on Friday. We started with small doses. Friday went great. Then yesterday she started having more frequent poos and we had a terrible night with her, full of wind and sore tummy. Then this morning after her first nap, she had a soft poo with lots of undigested bits (we didn't have this for ages!) and her left eye lid was a bit puffy! It's as though the food goes through her a lot quicker when she takes the probiotics and it's also a lot softer.
So now I'm wondering, is she allergic to this? It's the puffy eyelid that's worrying me. Or do we just need to go even slower and smaller amounts? Megan, I remember you saying Milo couln't have probiotics? What reaction did he have? It would be so disappointing if this didn't work. We really put a lot of hope into it...
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So now I'm wondering, is she allergic to this?
Hummmm... well, the Klaire labs are completely Hypoallergenic and the only additional ingredident is inulin. Could you email Klaire labs to see if they have ever experienced allergic reactions to their products and what the symptoms were? You could always send a quick email here: http://www.klaire.com/contact_us.asp I emailed them to ask a question and they were very prompt.
Personally I would start with an even smaller dose and only once per day. It's common for probiotics to cause diarrhea/runny stools at first as they are cleaning out toxins and are getting established in the digestive system. Her body isn't used to them. Arthur had about a week of extra runny poops and a nasty diaper rash and then things evened out. I thought at first they were bothering him, but his body jut needed time to adjust. So of course do what you feel is right, but personally I think what she's going through is completely normal to the probiotics starting to work. The probiotics make SUCH a big difference here. :)
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I will defo email them, Rebecca, thanks!
I think you're completely right. Just phoned our naturopath friend and she said the exact same. Gosh, these die offs are really hard to deal with, though! Especially when she was a bit better than this.
Today she pood before lunch and after dinner but was still not settling to sleep for the night. She seemed to be in absolute agony, literally throwing herself about in the cot. Eventually I put a suppository up and she passed wind and more poo but even after that she took ages to settle. I just get so upset when she is like this! :(
I wonder if enemas would be an idea to help clear her little system? Must ask our dr about this.
Rebecca, I remember you saying that you started with 1/8 tsp a day. Well, we haven't even given her that much, it was only just the tip of the spoon and she was still so bad...
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I wonder if enemas would be an idea to help clear her little system? Must ask our dr about this.
It would definitely be worth looking into. I'm not sure about the proper enema protocol for a baby, but I know NCM believes they are quite important in the healing process for GAPS patients. I've read a lot about coffee enemas being very effective. Can't say I've ever had any personal experience with them though.
I know, die off is SOOO hard. I mean, I know how disgusting I feel when my body is going through things like that, I can't imagine what it's like for a baby! Especially since their systems are so fragile. I think as long as you're keeping her as comfortable as possible and providing lots of snuggles that will help the process. I wouldn't worry too much about AP'ing... if a baby is in pain, they need those extra cuddles.
I really think with this sort of thing slow and steady wins the race. I'm so sorry to hear her die off is pretty strong, but I guess that's all the more reason to work through it as gently as possible.
Yes, we started Arthur on 1/8 tsp per day at first. I would just continue with your "tip of the spoon" dose for a little while longer. It does take time for these things to take effect. I'm glad you also have a ND friend IRL who can help you sort things out too. It sounds like she's pretty well versed in this sort of thing if she's familiar with die off.
Unfortunately I think in general we're all just so used to "instant" results. I know I have to remind myself often that this type of healing requires lots of time and patience (and some uncomfortable periods as the body is cleansing) It can be super frustrating, but we'll get there.
Arthur has been eating more roast beef the past couple of days. LOL... The ONE food he can eat :P But hey, it's something and he's enjoying it so that's a plus. We've got a bit of a rash going on around Arthur's mouth.. not totally sure what thats about, but he's also cutting his top 2 teeth atm, so I'm pretty sure it's all related. Apparently teething supresses the immune system, eh?! Yet another thing connected to their little guts!
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Oh, and I meant to say Jutka, are you giving her epsom salt baths? I can't remember if you already are. Those help a lot with die off. If you don't have epsom salts on hand, 1 cup of Apple Cider Vinegar will restore the skin's PH balance to allow for detoxification as well :)
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I would say teething really affects their immune system. My Peter pretty much got a cold every time he cut a tooth and he is a very healthy child, free of allergies etc.
Am I right in saying that all of us seem to have a lot worse time with our second bubs than the first? My Peter never had any food intolerance issues or gut dysbiosis. But then again, I never had antibiotics when I was expecting him and he never got formula soon after birth. These are the two factors I blame on Julia being this bad. She only got a few ounces of formula before my milk came in but that must have been enough...
Thanks for suggesting epsom salt and apple cider vinegar, will look into these. The only thing is, would these not irritate her eczema?
Good that Arthur can eat beef! It's something I never tried because I was told they are likely to react to beef if there is a cows milk allergy. Do you get organic beef? I think I would find it hard to find organic beef.
Finally, I just wanted to share an email with you that I got from NCM. When I first read the book I contacted her to see if we could get an appt with her since she is in the UK. This was her reply:
"Thank you for your email. My clinic is full and I am not able to offer you a formal consultation. However, on www.gaps.me you will find a list of GAPS practitioners you can work with by phone, most of them are in the USA. In this country you can contact Dr Shideh Pouria www.burghwoodclinic.co.uk/about/
I recommend that you study my GAPS book and www.gaps.me , where you will find a New Baby Diet. Please, follow that diet to the letter. At 11 months of age your daughter does not need any formula at all, they are highly processed and may contribute to her condition.
Apart from the diet introduce a good quality probiotic, try Bio-Kult starting from 1/2 a capsule per day mixed with her food and gradually increasing to 4 capsules per day.
She needs cod liver oil, I recommend fermented from www.greenpasture.org 1/2 a teaspoon per day for several years. No other supplements are necessary at this stage, just good food.
Best wishes
Dr Campbell-McBride"
I thought it might be interesting for all of you to read what she said. I have reduced her formula by 3/5, she is getting chicken stock instead. I was also going to order the CLO but after reading what you said, Megan, I'm not sure I could get it into her if it's so disgusting? But she defo says liquid form, not capsules, right? It's interesting how she doens't think that any other supplements are necessary at this stage, she must think that these two alone paired with good diet will heal our babies.
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Thanks so much for that Jutka. That's really helpful to read. I have to say I kind agree with everything NCM said in that email. Funny, I went ahead and ordered the liquid FCLO anyways since that's what she suggests in the book. I can eat some pretty nasty stuff, so I'm sure I can manage the FCLO. For the little ones, worst case it could be mixed in food or liquid, right? I think the FCLO and soup stock help to heal/seal the lining of the gut so that makes complete sense to me.
The thing would be if you're following exactly the baby protocol in the book you would have tonnes of natural probiotics in baby's diet in food form (yogurt, sauerkraut, other fermented veggies ect)
Interesting what you say about beef, Jutka. Yes, we eat all organic here, including meats (bloody expensive, but worth it for our health, IMO) Knowing what I know now about our food supply, I wouldn't eat anything else. I don't see how the meat from cows would contribute to dairy allergy though. Since the proteins found in dairy milk composition are completely different then that of the actual meat of the cow, kwim? If you're having a reaction to beef though, it could be the actual feed of the cow that's the true cause of the upset. Cows raised in CAFO are most always fed Genetically Modified Grains (that are doused in pesticides and other nasty stuff) and they are also pumped with antibiotics. Any toxins the cow eats/is exposed to gets into their tissues/fat. If we're eating that, I can see how anyone could react to that, kwim? I read about one little girl on the GAPS FB page and they had to make sure the chicken she ate was not fed soy. She had a severe soy intolerance/allergy and if the chicken she ate had been fed soy, she had a bad reaction. She had no reaction when she ate chicken that had been fed organic feed that did not contain soy. SO it wasn't an "allergy" to the chicken, but she was so sensitive to the feed that it made a difference, kwim?
I don't know what your food situation is like in N. Ireland, but I know in N. America the food industry is pretty disgusting unless you know exactly what you're buying. Are you able to get in contact with a local farmer? Grass fed, antibiotic free is about as "organic" as it can get. Make sure the farm isn't using any "finishers" (which is extra feed they give the cows before slaughter to fatten them up) Alot of finishers contain very undesireable ingredients. If they do "finish" that's when you need to make sure they are using organic feed.
No, ACV and ES baths won't hurt eczema.. it will actually help it. As will baking soda baths. All three restore the skins PH balance to allow for proper detox. NCM talks about these detox baths in the book, I can't recall which section though... my guess would be the detoxification section :P
I also agree w/ what shes saying about the FF. I think it's probably a good idea you're weaning it, tbh. I'm assuming you're basically going to do "Intro" with her then?
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Re: allergies, I had a roommate once who was allergic to anything from a cow: beef, milk, even couldn't wear leather. I don't know what it was, but we had to cook around it.
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Re: allergies, I had a roommate once who was allergic to anything from a cow: beef, milk, even couldn't wear leather. I don't know what it was, but we had to cook around it.
That's so interesting! Perhaps food chemical sensitivity?
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Don't know. This was probably 20 years ago or so, so not as many of the things IN the food chain yet that we avoid now.
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I meant naturally occuring food chemicals, like Amines, Glutamates ect.. that's moreso the theory behind the RPAH Failsafe elim diet. kwim?
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Ah, gotcha. :)
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Thanks, Rebecca. What about chicken? I am only using that as the meat at the mo and have only been able to find free range, not organic. That's not good enough, right? And how do I know what they feed them with? If the chicken is corn fed it says so on the label but if it doesn't say anything, what does that mean?
Just got an email from my biomed dr. He wants me to stop giving her the probiotics for a week and do a urine microbial metabolism test for her. He did ask to get this done but the kit only arrived 2 days before Christmas and they were closed over the holidays so I couldn't do it then. I'm really annoyed about this now - another week to be wasted! He also says die offs do occur but not usually as severe as what I mention and he doesn't know whether enemas would help or not. I'm not sure he is the right guy for us anymore, tbh. :(
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You don't *have* to use organic, but I've read that its best if you can. Many people do perform the diet without all organic with success... it probably depends on whereabouts in the world you are and their farming practices. If you can find free range + antibiotic free chicken I think that's probably a great option. Sometimes farms do use organic practices but simply can't afford to be "certified"... so it's worth asking around. They might not say organic on the label, but if the farmer is doing all organic farming practices it's basically the same thing, kwim? For us, I know the feed because we talk to the farmer. We try and buy directly from the farm if we can. The chickens we eat do have organic soy mixed into their feed and it hasn't caused an issue with us... but I know some individuals are particularly sensitive to that stuff. Do you buy from a butcher then? I'm sure you could ask them. If you are buying from a grocery store, I'm not quite sure. I guess you could ask where they get their meat from and contact their supplier if you have questions. Such a pain though, right?
urine microbial metabolism test for her
Is this the same as the Organic Acid Test? (OAT) We didn't have to stop probiotics for the OAT test, I just had to make sure I didn't eat any apples, pears, grapes or cranberries (or their juices) 24 hrs before. All of these tests can be different, eh? I know the stool test we just did says no enzymes ect.. but it didn't say anything about no probiotics prior to the test, so I just kept dosing as usual.
Are there any ND's in your area with an expertise in this sort of thing? We found ours through a list Eloise and Megan provided... I just checked to get the link for you but apparently they no longer publish a list of practioners ??? Weird... They had a whole list of international Dr's who deal with this sort of thing... that's where I found ours.
So this morning Arthur was lunging at my hard boiled eggs, so I gave him the tinest bit of egg yolk. He happily ate it and didn't throw up so that was a plus. But then I noticed the weirdest thing this afternoon... he got a small rash all up his legs and a bit on his tummy - the same looking rash that's around his mouth. Can eggs cause die off?? See, I'm wondering because this afternoon his poops were perfect - no mucous + bright yellow. We haven't had those since he regressed after I first tried to start solids. Hummmm.. I'm going to post on the FB page to see what others have to say. I don't feel like it's an intolerance thing, but who knows... I know eggs are super high on the healing list, so maybe?
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Jutka, I did a separate google search and found 2 practitioners in Ireland that are certified by "DAN" (defeat autism now) - using similar nutritional protocols that we are using. The ND we are using is also certified by DAN. Could be worth contacting these people... I have no clue if they are close to you or not though... ???
Noreen Cronin, BSc, Ph.D., HDipNutritional Med
Woodhaven, Fortwilliam, Douglas
Cork
Ireland
ph: 00353(0)214367794
fax: 353 324367794
Majella M. Perry, MB, Bch Bao
Meadowcroft Surgery
Millview Court
Tinahely County WTCKLOW
Ireland
ph: 00 353 402 3869
fax: 00 353 402 28782
Here's the link I used to find them: http://www.autismresourceconnection.com/medicaldandoctorsinternational.html
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Okay. I'm sorry and I feel like an idiot for even posting this :-[ :-[
I have been reading the GAPS book. I just simply do not seem to retain the information. I still completely lost and it feels like there is way too much to figure out.
Do you know of any simplified step by step way to do this? Like has anyone just written out the basics that you can find online or something? I just cannot figure information out written in this type of context :-[ :-[
I really want this to work but am feeling very overwhelmed and discouraged :( :-[ :-[
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(((hugs))) Jenn.
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Jenn, I sometimes feel just like you! It's so overwhelming, there is so much that we would need to change! I just said to my husband that we would need to move out to the country and start an organic farm or something but even then, pollution is everywhere. I think if you are looking for basics, go to the new baby diet and follow that. It's step by steps and explains what to do for every week.
Rebecca, thank you for the research. I have also found these 2 guys, they are very far from me so I emailed them and one of them advised me to go to the guy I'm seeing at the mo. DH and I decided to go with his advise for now and wait and see what he makes of the tests.
I'm actually a bit relieved to be stopping the probiotics after another terrible night! I really don't know if it's normal to have such a severe die off!!! Since we started, she has got considerably worse, terrible stomach pains, diarrhoea and constipation, wind, sleep disturbances and flare up of ezcema. She also needs to sleep to get better and I don't think it's good for her to be this upset. But then I'm really torn as I know how important these probitics are for her to heal.
I nearly feel like going back to biogaia as we didn't get these reactions with that one and it was helping a bit, though I know that they are very weak in comparison.
Rebecca, I would be careful with the eggs. I know they are high in the healing list but are also very allergenic. I mean the first thing you are told to exclude when breastfeeding is dairy and eggs. I could be wrong, of course, just I know that I would be worried about the eggs.
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Jenn {{{HUGS}}}}--I feel the same way often. I may be missing lots, but this site feels like a nice overview: http://www.gaps.me/preview/?page_id=34
Gotta run.
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Thanks girls. I mean more for me then for Emily. She isn't on solids yet so I'm trying toget into full GAPS because I'm BFing her. I jut don't know what suppliers I'm supposed to take or when to take probiotics (with every meal?) when to give her probiotics, if we are both suppose to be doing detox baths and how that all works. I guess what I want is a check list so that I know that I haven't screwed something up. There is simply too much info in the book for me to soak up in my sleep deprived state (along with the fact I fall asleep every time I start reading :P). I paid for a GAPS intro meal planner and in that it sort of laid everything out step by step but of course I can't do the intro diet because I am BFing. Duh! ::)
Rebecca- did you ever find a iron supplement you felt comfy giving Arthur?
*sigh* I need to do something, Emily is getting worse again :(
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Hi Jenn! I felt (and still feel!!) exactly the same way. It's a HUGE lifestyle change and you don't have to do it overnight. I found it easiest to go in steps, so pick one thing in the book that you feel you can manage, say eliminating grains, and then do that for a few days. I started by printing out a list of all the foods that I could and couldn't eat (just use google to find the list) and just working off of that until I was used to it. It took me several days to whittle down to just the list - I found it too hard to just go cold turkey, especially since there were things I didn't have on hand and couldn't easily find in the grocery store (cold pressed coconut oil for example). Also, you don't have to do everything the book says right from the start, you can start by making gradual improvements. For example, I buy raw nuts (walnuts and pecans are best raw, IMO) but you can wait on sprouting and roasting them yourself until you are more used to everything else. Then you can start thinking about what supplements you want - probiotics and such. Take some time to order these when you print out the food list so that you can receive them in a week or so and will have them when you are ready to start them. Then I started trying to make and keep up with the broth as that is a huge part of the diet. Then once I was more used to all that, I started adding in some of the other things such as yogurt and/or saurkraut.
Also, meal planning is pretty helpful too. We eat eggs and avocado for breakfast almost every morning. Every day for lunch I roast chicken pieces (and get broth from it too!) and cook some kind of vegetable. Dinner time is the only time I really have to be creative, but that's usually just some form of chicken or beef with vegetables too. Snacks are the hard part for me, but I usually eat nuts or fruit.
There's still times when I'm not the best at keeping up with the broth and supplements and diet, but even what I do manage is making a difference for Milo. I ate normally for two days on New Years as I was at my sister's house and couldn't really cook for us, and Milo's poops went back to mucousy and he got some eczema on his face. So I know that the diet is helping a lot and that is motivation to just do the best that I can, even if I'm not perfect, kwim?
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Thanks Megan! :-* that is super helpful! I think I am scared that if I'm missing something, I'm screwing something up and I worry that it would be harmful :-\ But in reality, our meals are still missing things now and we are all still alive ;)
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Exactly. You just make small changes and keep improving and making them. Another example is if you want to eat navy beans b/c they are on the list, but you can't manage to soak and cook your own right away, use canned beans until you can make the change to preparing dry beans, kwim?
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((hugs)) Jenn!! I agree with what everyone else is saying.. it can be a really hard adjustment and the changes can't happen all overnight. Baby steps for sure. Try not to get too overwhelmed with the specifics. The gaps.me website that Kim posted is really good. I also love the Health, Home, Happiness website. This might be helpful, "Healthy Changes 101": http://www.healthhomehappy.com/2011/04/making-healthy-changes-101.html She also does a "Coles Notes" version of the GAPS book if you're finding the book itself to be too overwhelming: http://www.healthhomehappy.com/2010/11/the-gut-brain-connection-autism-add-allergies-and-other-diseases.html
As Megan said, maybe if you stay focused on the "allowed" list and obviously stay away from the "avoid", kwim? Here's the full GAPS plan: http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/the-full-gaps-diet.pdf (which we're on since we're BFing)
Here's the allowed and avoid list: http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/GAPS-Diet-Foods.pdf Again, I would stay clear of common allergen triggers at first. It's a bit of trial and error. We still don't do any dairy (fermented or otherwise) and no peanuts ( I know for certain those bother Arthur when I eat them) This list is just one page and as Megan suggested you can put it on your fridge.
It will get easier. Honestly, once you get into a groove with it, it really does click.
I also agree with Megan about automating meals. Breakfast/lunch are almost always the same here. Dinner is the only real variation. Breakfast is eggs, avocado (occationally bacon) & freshly made veg/fruit juice, lunch is always chicken soup (or a variation, sometimes lentil soup made with homemade soup stock, or navy bean soup (just be sure to soak your beans/legumes over night in apple cider vinegar to remove phytic acid) And whatever you do make, try and make bigger batches to freeze ect. That makes life easier. Also, if you don't already use it, a crock pot can be a livesafer... you can throw an entire meal in the crockpot in the morning (root veggies, meat ect...) and it's ready for you by supper time. You can even slow cook bone broth throughout the day in the crock pot or do your beans in there as well. I do my bean/legume soaking before I go to bed. Once you get in the habbit of doing it the same time everyday you really don't think anything of it.
((hugs)) it will get better. You're doing amazing!! What dose of probiotics is Emily on now?
Jutka, yes, I decided to not give Arthur any more eggs. He just *really* wants to eat sometimes and I feel so bad keeping food from him all the time. :-\ He had some bone broth this morning mixed w/ BM in a cup which he liked. :)
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Any reason why I couldn't have an all natural hotdog that is made from grassfed beef and has no added nitrates or sugar or anything else not allowed? I'm guessing that is fine, right? DH was asking me to get some because while he thinks the saurkrat I made is good, he's not really one to eat it plain, but loves it on hotdogs, so I found some and was thinking that would make for a fast lunch once in awhile when I need it.
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Thanks Rebecca :-*
Emily is still on 1/4 tsp of the infant probiotic once a day. I am thinking about upping it :-\
One of my main concerns wth Emily is the fact she only has a bowel movement about once every 10 days. It's never constipated but just uncomfy. She is SO much happier for the first few days after the BM and then gets uncomfy again. Any special thoughts on helping her with that?
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This time it's me needing some support and extra TLC.
Our biomed dr rang to say that the result for Julia's digestive stool analysis came back. He said it's the worst he has ever seen! She has 5 types of abnormal bacteria and 2 types of fungi living in her gut. There are some benefitial bacteria missing altogether, there are some others that are there but not many of them. There is also some inflammatory markers. He is sending me the test so I will get to see it tomorrow or on Thursday.
He said to keep going with the probiotics with very small amounts and also mentioned a herb starting with U but couldn't make out the rest. We are to see him next week when we will discuss how to go forward.
In the meantime, Julia is getting worse and worse. Her poops are now mucusy and she is very constipated or has diarrhoea. She is rolling in pain from time to time and it's very hard to see her in so much pain and not to cry. I'm absolutely devastated by what he said. I mean,he treats autistic kids - and their gut is in better shape than my Julia's.
We were so much better last week but these last few days since we started the probiotics and now this news - it's an absolute nightmare!
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((((((((((((hugs))))))))))) Hun! I can imagine that would be so devastating to hear :( I wish I had some good advice for you. She is very lucky to have you as you are so dedicated to helping her be healthy.
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Thank you, Jenn. I can't stop crying at the mo...
As for constipation, I'm definitely gonna look into enemas. Sometimes the stimulation of the anus is enough to get them started with the poo. In Hungary (that's where I'm orinially from) we use a so called rectal tube for babies, it's a very thin rubber tube that you insert gently into baby's bottom, this will help them pass the wind and stool. Don't know if it's available in your part of the world. Another idea is suppositories - we have to regularly use them, unfortunately. Apparently, it's not habit forming on the long run, and it's better for them to get their bowel emptied regularly. HTH
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Goodness, that must have been hard to hear. But as scary as it may be, imagine if she didn't have you to advocate for her and have her tested. Now that you have information, you KNOW that you can help her! :-* :-* :-*
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I don't see why not Kim. Those sound yummy!!
I was also thinking... I've made breastmilk "popcicles" for when the boys are teething.. I might make some bone broth popcicles. That could be an ok way to get soup stock in them. Arthur particularily loves anything cold in his mouth right now so I think I'll do that next batch of stock I make.
Posted as others were posting... Jutka... That is absolutely heartbreaking :( Big (((hugs))) and healthy vibes to dear Julia. How terrible. It does sound like you are in good hands and you are doing amazing treating her. I agree with Jenn, Julia is very fortunate to have a mother as dedicated as you :-* :-* :-* Can you give her some gentle tummy massages with FCLO (but any oil could do)? Just rubbing in an "S" shape can help ease discomfort a little.
Jenn, that would concern me too :-\ I have heard of the enemas but don't have any experience with them. Those could maybe help? I would also consider upping her probiotic if she's doing well on the 1/4 tsp dose. We do 1/4 tsp AM and 1/4 tsp during the DF... perhaps try the 1/4 tsp AM and then 1/8 tsp PM for a bit then increase from there? I know the probiotics help Arthur poop BIG TIME. He was constipated before we started them as well, although the longest he went without a poop was 5 days... The probiotics have made him regular. Now he poops 4-5x/day. We used to be lucky if we only got 1/day or 1 every other day.
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Jutka - huge hugs!! As Deb said, now you know, and think how early you caught it all!! My doctor (who also treats autistic children) said that he normally doesn't see patients until they are in late childhood and he was happy we caught Milo's problems so early b/c if you catch these things before age 3 there is a MUCH better prognosis. It isn't common for parents to be so attentive and to do so much as you have for Julia so early - there is a LOT you can do to help her before even bigger problems set in. You are doing amazing!!!
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Have to dash but wanted to send along huge hugs too Jutka!
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Thanks, girls. It's really good to have you and get some support. I'm very down at the mo.
Megan, by MUCH better prognosis what does he mean? Does she have a chance of healing completely? I'm worried she will have to stay on a special diet for the rest of her life, or worse, she will get worse symptoms like one of the GAPS conditions... Just really freaking out at the mo.
A guy from Klair Labs came back to me regarding the probiotics. This was his reply:
"We have not had reports of allergic reactions to our probiotics. We have been marketed probiotics for over 30 years and I do not know of a single reported allergic reaction. Uncommonly, people do report loose stools following the initiation of probiotics. People can also experience gas. I am surprised this would happen after a dose of 1/8 teaspoon (5 billion CFU). However, some people are sensitive to small numbers of probiotic organisms. I suggest trying ½ capsule of the Ther-Biotic Factor 4 to see if your daughter tolerates Bifidobacterium species alone. If she does, I would continue that formula for 1 months and then try and transition to the Infant Formula."
After I read the email, I phoned him and he said that the mucus in her stool would really worry him as mucus is always an inflammatory marker, not just a die off. In the end, he actually suggested trying her with lactobacillus acidophulus which does not have any inulin in it and also just one type of bacteria. He thinks it would be better easing her in with single species rather than a whole load at once since she is SO sensitive.
But in the end I decided to just go back to biogaia. I know she tolerates that and it will also arrive in a couple of days rather than waiting for shipment from USA. That one is a LACTOBACILLUS REUTERI PROTECTIS (L.REUTERI) probiotic.
The only thing is, how am I to get her better and to reestablish good bacteria in her gut when she can't have the stronger, theraputic probiotics? How is she ever going to get better?
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Have you tried her on Culturelle? They have a dairy and soy free version - we used the adult version thereof and open a capsule daily to add to DS' smoothies. DS has done GREAT with it and was able to eventually transition from that twice daily to now that once daily plus a high dose of other probiotic strains once daily as well.
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I could be wrong, but doesn't culturelle have either FOS or maltodextrin in it? I can't remember but I think it's one of the 2.. :-\ Both are out on gaps I'm pretty sure
Jutka, if you go back with the Biogaia, you would probably need to give her quite a few drops to get to a more therapeutic dose. I think 5 drops is only 100 thousand CFUs, right? It could be that you never had die off from it b/c it's such a low dose. Maybe going back to them would be ok for a bit, but I'm pretty sure you'll have to increase the dose quite high for healing. ??? If she then tolerates high doses of the one strain in the Biogaia, perhaps you could start to add another small dose of a different strain (like the acidophillus) down the road? Sounds like Klaire Labs was helpful though, thats a bonus.
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Ah, just googled, it's Mannitol in the Culturelle for kids.. pretty sure that's out. I remembered looking into it a while back.
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We don't use the Culturelle for kids. My holistic practitioner highly recommends using the regular/adult vegetarian capsules. Dairy and gluten free. Has 10 billion cells of Lactobacillus GG and 200 mg of Inulin. Other ingredients are hypromellose, vegetable magnesium stearate, silica and titanium dioxide. She also highly recommended the Klaire Labs Vital Immune one once DS's system was ready for it.
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Gotcha, thanks Karen :) The adult ones do sound great! I hadn't read anything about those. I'm still waiting on my Vital Immune to arrive... they've crossed the border so they should arrive any day now :)
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by MUCH better prognosis what does he mean?
I'm sorry, I wish that I could tell you exactly what he meant by that, but I just don't know. I didn't ask :-/ I do think that there are some people who have really bad gut conditions but don't present with any of the gaps conditions. I'll never believe that every "normal" person has perfect gut conditions - I think it depends on a lot more factors than just plain gut (genetics is an example) - she even says so in the book. So take it one day at a time and don't convince yourself that she is definitely going to have a condition like autism.
She will get better and better b/c as she gets older she will be able to tolerate more and more and as she heals b/c of the baby steps you are taking, that will help her tolerance too. You can add probiotic strains one at a time if you have to. Also, your doctor will have ideas on how to help the inflammation and mucousy poos when you meet with him. As Rebecca says, you have to go slowly with these things and take tiny baby steps sometimes. Sometimes it is one step forward and two steps back and that's ok b/c you are doing the best you can.
I don't know if this will help for you (I can't remember exactly where you are with the diet and can't go back to look just now) but Milo has had mucousy poos his whole life until I started the diet and stopped giving him starchy foods like rice and potatoes. I also think that dairy causes mucous for him too. I think you said that she is on FF? Could you try the liver based home-made FF from the link that Rebecca posted (which is on the first page of this thread)? It might make a huge difference.
Big hugs! Just remember - you are doing an amazing job and knowing what you know, you can do (and are doing!) SO much for her. So many people would just say "oh she'll grow out of it" and do nothing.
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Well said Megan, and I agree about the homemade FF... I would probably consider going that route over the commercial FF.
don't convince yourself that she is definitely going to have a condition like autism.
Yes, Megan is right, we all can't think like that. We have to look at the positives. You're taking such huge strides in her health now and giving her little tummy the best chance at repairing itself. The body has an AMAZING capability to heal itself once given the proper conditions, which is what you're doing. It really does take a long, long time, so with very small steps you'll get there. Also, having the knowledge you have behind the GAPS principles, you also know how to avoid the toxic overload that can contribute to the onset of autism (and other neurological disorders). Remember diet and supplements are only 2 key pieces. There's also limiting exposure to environmental toxins, EMF exposure, toxins in the home ect. It's all part of the package and will all make a difference in the long run. We've added a bunch of plants in the house to help our indoor air quality for example. Both boys have their own "Money Tree" growing in their room now. I've noticed Arthur's nasal breathing has really subsided since adding the extra plants and opening the windows more often (yes, even in the dead of winter when it's freezing I will open the windows a crack :P) So there's so many things you can do (and are doing) to minimize damage and maximize her healing. She'll get there, all of our little ones will... and as Megan said, 2 steps forward, 1 step back. This is a little step back for you, but I know you will be able to move forward from here. xoxoxox :-*
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ITA with Megan!
Not GAPS related but venting here... My DD has been breaking out every so often in a puffy red rash on her hands. It itches and feels sore to her. It seems to happen after "carp" food with additives. Which we don't buy at home but she does have sometimes elsewhere. So for example it happened last week after Nesquik powder added to milk at a friend's house and happened today after a small bag of Cheez-its at Hebrew school (they sell snacks there).
But I know she's not dairy allergic and seems fine with regular chocolate - so I'm suspecting it's one of the additives or the like? Any thoughts? If I can't narrow it down I'll take her to the holistic practitioner that I use for myself and DS but would love to figure it out on my own if possible - money is tight right now!
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Do you girls take the nut/seed oil? The only one I can find with the right ratio is Udo's 3-6-9 and it has soy lecithin in it :-\
What about fish oil with the higher APH-DPA ratio?
We take "D" drops, should we continue those?
I take calcium, magnesium and fenugreek. What about those?
Fenugreek is pretty much a must. Also I have been naughty and have been giving Emily 2 oz of HAF at bedtime because I just gave zero milk at that time and I can never get anything from pumping :-\ obviously I need to cut that out but how..?
I can't find FCLO in capsules. Anyone know where I can order them?
Sorry for my 50 billion questions. I am going into the city tomorrow to get all my organic stuff and supplements and I don't want to screw up!
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((((hugs)))) Karen! I'm have no idea!
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ITA with Megan!
Not GAPS related but venting here... My DD has been breaking out every so often in a puffy red rash on her hands. It itches and feels sore to her. It seems to happen after "carp" food with additives. Which we don't buy at home but she does have sometimes elsewhere. So for example it happened last week after Nesquik powder added to milk at a friend's house and happened today after a small bag of Cheez-its at Hebrew school (they sell snacks there).
Food coloring? I'm pretty sure cheesy puff things have artificial yellow in them, and if it was strawberry Nesquik you know there was Red in it. :( There's still plenty of sugar in the Nesquik regardless. Oh, Nesquik has other ingredients: "Sugar, Cocoa Processed with Alkali, Soy Lecithin, Carrageenan, Salt, Artificial Flavors, Spice. Vitamins and Minerals: Calcium Carbonate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Zinc Oxide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Copper Gluconate, Manganese Sulfate, Biotin" (Yes, I Googled!) which might be the culprit there; Natalie reacted to carrageenan for a while as a baby (in her case it was spinach-green poops!). Could also be the soy in the lecithin if she's really sensitive to soy.
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Nope it was the less sugar chocolate variety of Nesquik and the Cheez-its (not puffs but square crackers) don't list artificial yellow on this site? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheez-It But not sure if that is accurate.
She's never seemed sensitive to soy before. She did break out TERRIBLY as a toddler once to holiday cookies a friend of the family made - we never narrowed that down either but always guessed it was a certain spice or the like. Sigh.
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Jenn - Fish oil, we use Ascenta's Nutrasea. Ds1 takes 1tsp/day DH and I take 1 tbsp. I've also heard amazing things about Krill Oil. Dr. Mercola talks about it alot.
I don't take nut/seed oil so I can't comment on that. I just eat a lot of nut/seed butters (almond and sunflower seed mainly)
We do Ddrops for the boys. Personally I would continue them, especially through the winter.
I also take a Cal/Mag supplement. The ones I'm using right now are by Sisu, but tbh I grab whatever I can find on sale that is Calcium Citrate. Since we aren't on any dairy, I feel it's very important.. it also makes a huge difference in my milk supply. I take between 2,000 iu/day - 3,000 iu/day. (higher dose if AF is in town )
Fenugreek - not sure :-\ Megan can maybe comment, I know she was taking some for a while. I was taking it when Ds2 was first born b/c I wanted to be sure to have enough milk for both boys, but then I realized Arthurs tummy troubles early on so I discontinued it b/c I wasn't sure if it was bothering him or not... hummmm... are you on FB Jenn? Perhaps ask about it on the GAPS FB page. I'm sure someone would know if Fenugreek is ok?
FCLO, I ordered the oil, but here's a list of all of green pastures FCLO products: http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/CodLiverOil/index.cfm I've also seen the capsules on Amazon
About the HAF - you could try the Homemade HAF ??? Does she really *need* the 2 oz? Have you tried just nursing her to see if that helps? Babies are FAR more efficient nursers then a pump and can always get some milk even if a pump can't seem to get any.
Also, if you're having supply issues, I know it's not "ideal" BW'ing, but seriously, nursing on demand really does help supply.. especially as you start to enter "solids" territory. What I did when Arthur was around Emily's age was I introduced one new BF where "solids" would be in EASY... In the BW for toddlers book Tracy outlines a feeding routine w/ solids on pg 122/123. That's roughly what I did with Arthur, but with BF's instead of solids. As he became hungrier, more active, and more in the "solids" zone I just increased the BFs where solids would normally be, iykwim? (and my supply increased as well b/c I was nursing more frequently) That's really helped us since we're still delaying solids. I can hardly call the couple bites he gets here and there solids :P
Wish I could help Karen... maybe Deb knows? She's really good with that sort of thing :)
LOL, and of course as I'm writting my post Deb has posted :)
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Oh, and I think you were asking about the iron supplement too, Jenn? I still haven't given Arthur one. After talking to the ND and doing some googling I don't feel he needs it right now. He does play in "clean" dirt and lick his fingers though :P
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Thanks! That helps me out a ton! No I am not on Facebook.
Re: the HAF, I don't know! She literally screams and screams and doesn't stop! I would feed her earlier then BW suggests except she has always eaten every 4 hours and refuses in between, even when she was a wee little 5 lb baby. Spirited much? :P
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Everything I read seems to point to not needing an iron supplement either.
And Rebecca, Jenn and I have been through numerous threads on the BFing board -- Miss Emily seems to think that she needs to be up many, many times a night to nurse so I'm sure that Jenn is trying really hard to get some more sleep with that top up (correct me if I'm being presumptuous Jenn, but thought I'd throw that in there).
Quote from: bjutka1 on Yesterday at 10:25:05 PM
by MUCH better prognosis what does he mean?
I'm sorry, I wish that I could tell you exactly what he meant by that, but I just don't know. I didn't ask :-/ I do think that there are some people who have really bad gut conditions but don't present with any of the gaps conditions. I'll never believe that every "normal" person has perfect gut conditions - I think it depends on a lot more factors than just plain gut (genetics is an example)
Just wanted to reiterate this, I've been in special ed for 12(ish) years now and I will say that I've never noticed my special needs kids having more tummy issues than the other ones (not that I spent time in the bathroom with them, but that type of thing would have come up with parents in at least some cases...). Honestly, I only had one with tummy issues and he was on a very restricted diet already (knowing more than I do now, I'm pretty sure it was RPAH), but he was also off grains as well. Some of my "normal" kids were way more likely to have digestive issues. So, there's a lot at play here, don't despair! :)
Posted when you did Jenn, that's right, I forgot about her punctuality with her daytime feeds. ::)
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And Rebecca, Jenn and I have been through numerous threads on the BFing board -- Miss Emily seems to think that she needs to be up many, many times a night to nurse so I'm sure that Jenn is trying really hard to get some more sleep with that top up (correct me if I'm being presumptuous Jenn, but thought I'd throw that in there).
Gotcha :) thanks for the added info. That must be really tough Jenn.. huge ((hugs))!! You're doing amazing keeping up with her Bf's!! Arthur really has a mind of his own too... I can totally relate to the spirited side for sure :-*No I am not on Facebook.
I will post a general question about the Fenugreek as if I were asking for myself to see if anyone has any thoughts :)
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Thank you, thank you, thank you! :-* :-*
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We do use an iron supplement here because DS was mildly anemic. But we are weaning off it and restesting iron levels since our practitioner thinks the main reason he was anemic is because he when we didn't know about his dairy intolerance he was having loose large stools 3-5 times a day! We have used this brand: http://kirkmanlabs.com/ProductKirkman/122/1/IronLiquid-Bio-MaxSeries/
Anyway, little Miss has to be up for school soon. Curious to see if her hands look better after that rash episode...
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I'm curious about the fenugreek as well because I've been taking it ever since we saw the lacation consultant at 4 months with our weight gain issues. I thought I'd read somewhere that it was okay, but I don't know now. Can't keep straight what I've read for which ED and what problems various things address. Honestly, considering how tired I am all the time, its kind of a miracle that I remember my kids' names at this point :)
Lots of hugs for everyone struggling and worried. I worry constantly that if I "mess up" doing this, Henry is going to be affected permanantly and I'll feel guilty for the rest of my life, but really, I do think that there are a LOT of contributing factors that go into every condition and just health in general. We're all doing the best we can and have to just hope that it will all work itself out. The fear does keep me motivated, though, so I guess its kind of a good thing. Our symptoms tend to be light and hard to read, so it would be easy for me to dismiss a lot of it and just try eating my typical nursing diet (no dairy or soy, but everything else is fair game). But that little bit of fear keeps me going.
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So excited. In his most recent article Dr Mercola said that throughout this coming year he's going to be working very closely with NCM to spread the word about gut health! Can't wait for more info!!
I posted on the gaps FB page about the Fenugreek, but no response yet. Hopefully someone will chime in.
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Jenn, did you manage to find some of the supplements you were looking for today when you went to the health store?
Jutka, how are you feeling today? Thinking of you :-*
Megan, how's Milo holding up?
Karen, how was DD's rash today?
Arthur still has his mouth rash and a bit on his legs. I think it's more then just teething... I've rubbed some coconut oil on it, so maybe that along with the epsom salts baths will help a little. Poor little dude. He doesn't act like it's bothering him, but it doesn't look very comfortable to me :-\
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I did find the fish oil so that's good. I think I will skip the nut/seed oil for now. These things are expensive! I'm trying to find the FCLO but amazon doesn't appear to ship this one to Canada. I can order from the green pastures website but I'm scared because the last time I ordered something from the states it ended up costing me triple the price in customs and all that stuff. Unknown to me of course until it arrived ::)
Anyways, I am completely broke now :P after my day of organic shopping. Chicken broth is simmering as we speak. Ready to start on Friday.
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Ya, duty can suck big time. It's weird, sometimes I get hit with it (like the digestive enzymes I just ordered ::) ) other times none at all.. I never get dinged with duty on my probiotics I order from the states. Depending on the product you can fight it.
I agree, it can get pricey. Try and get most of your nutrients from high quality foods as opposed to supplements. As Jutka reiterated in her email from NCM, NCM believes you only *really* need a probiotic + FCLO for supplements. Some ppl need the enzymes for a short period, others don't. Remember natural occuring probiotics in sauerkraut. That's a very inexpensive way to get probiotics in you :) TBH, if we ate more fish around here I wouldn't bother w/ fish oil, but DH hates fish, and even the smell turns him off.. so I can only cook fish for Ds1 and I on rare occations DH is away for a few days. Also, in the brighter spring/summer you don't really *need* vit D. Good ol fashion smart sun exposure can get you the healthy UVB rays you need to get Vit D in :)
Did a google, this blog suggests ordering in bulk from green pastures ... I think that's what I'll do next time. You can also still order from this blog. These guys are in BC http://eatkamloops.org/archives/1820 You can read the discussion below the original post...
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Jenn - LOVE the new avatar! So precious!
I think the enzymes are really starting to help!! :D Arthur was able to eat the most bone broth ever today - about 3oz!!! YAY!! (no pukes I might add!) He likes it best when I feed it to him with a medicine syringe. ::) Takes a while, but it works. Gotta get that miracle broth in! I really want to be able to get some of these healing foods into him. I still think BM is crutial, but I know it needs reinforcements to help get this process moving. He really must have been low on the enzymes! He's up to taking 1/2 capsule 3x/day of the Similase Jr. enzymes, so I'll probably move to a full cap tomorrow morning.
The Klaire Labs Vital-Immune arrived today so I will give that to Arthur tomorrow morning as well so I can monitor throughout the day for a reaction. Going to be a pit of a PITA juggling the 2 probiotics and enzymes throughout the day. I re-read the part about enzymes in the GAPS book - they are to be taken before meals and probiotics are not to be taken at the same time, as the enzymes can possibly destroy the probiotics due to high acidity. So spacing out the supplements is going to take a bit of getting used to, but we're doing ok so far.
He still has a full body rash - around his mouth is definitely still the worst. His poops have been amazing though. Bright yellow, no mucous - so that's excellent. His top 2 front teeth have cut so I think the worst of that teething is over. Hopefully that rash will start to go down. Still not sure what to think of it. Probably shouldn't have given him that piece of egg yolk a few days ago, but now I know. He still needs lots of healing.
We ordered 1/4 cow from a local organic farmer so our deep freeze should be full in the next 2 weeks. Love that you can request extra soup bones, liver, heart ect. If you asked me this time last year if I would want the extra "leftovers" from a cow I would think you were nuts... now I can't imagine passing up such nutritious, healing foods! Amazing what a little knowledge and some life lessons can do! Although, I don't know if I can bring myself to eating heart yet.. maybe in soup it wouldn't be so bad? I know NT has a recipe for cows brains.. I'm a pretty adventurous eater, even love raw foods - but cows brains... I think I need to really build up to that one! :P
Kim - Has H had his weigh-in yet? How were your hot dogs? Mmmmm I'm totally craving hot dogs w/ sauerkraut! :P
Megan - So what supplements do you have Milo on exactly now? Probiotics & Caprylic Acid? Do you think the CA is helping any? Is he taking in more bone broth?
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rebecca--that is such great news! I'm so glad that you're seeing some progress with Arthur. We haven't tried any enzymes but it does make me wonder if Henry would tolerate some foods better if we did. We struck out with egg yolk as well as the avocado and sometimes it seems like he is spitting up a little too much. But then its hard for me to remember what might be normal for a baby to spit up just with burping and what not. And I totally agree about the cow parts. I haven't been able to make myself eat anything "extra" yet. My brother, who is a chef, swears by all the gross parts, but I just have a had time getting excited about brains and hearts. I do love the soup bones we get from our cow-pooling and need to ask if they ever have extras. I know I can order extras seperately, so I guess that's how they do it if you want more than what is included in the share.
We did have a weigh in last week--14 lbs 13 oz, so he'd gained almost 2 pounds in 6 weeks!!! The dr. was cautiously pleased, told me to keep up the good work feeding him. She keeps mentioning yogurt and since I'm thinking that dairy is out, she wants me to try coconut milk yogurt which they do sell at the health food store here, but I'm assuming it has added sugar and everything. I guess I should try making my own--not sure where to get dairy free cultures to start it with?
Oh, and the hotdog was good :)
Feeling very "crunchy" right now--got my diapers washing, dehydrator is going with the cashews I soaked earlier today and some zuchini chips, just ate some of my homemade saurkrat. :) An acquaintance made a comment a couple years ago about me being a hippy which I didn't think really fit (not by any real hippy's standards, I'm sure), but DH and I laugh now that 10 years ago, if you'd told him he'd be married to a cloth diapering, extended bfing, waterbirthing mama who makes mostly homemade organic foods, he probably wouldn't have believed it.
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WOOHOO!! Amazing Kim!!! That's terrific news about the gain!
Re: egg & avocado - I almost wonder if Arthurs body was telling me he wasn't ready for it, kwim? He was spitting up egg yolk every time I tried it back in November (I think it was Nov, I seriously loose track of time) Then he actually kept down a bit of egg yolk the other day and broke out in that full body rash! So maybe him vomiting it up was a better thing, kwim? :-\ ??? I almost feel like their little bodies know what they need and what they don't, so the vomiting could partially be just b/c they aren't ready for that food yet since the lining hasn't healed. I'm really trying to refocus on bone broth. Arthur didn't love eating the broth before, but I think it was the high fat content being hard to digest. With the enzymes in play now he seems to like it more, probably b/c the whole eating process isn't as painful or uncomfortable? Not sure though ???
You totally could make coconut milk yogurt!! Great call! You can make breastmilk yogurt too - I've actually seen recipes online. I have used the Klaire Labs probiotics as yogurt starter when I make yogurt for DH - so something like that could be a hypoallergenic option. It works just the same I think. I just did 1/2 tsp, but you may need to experiment. Once you have your first batch of yogurt already fermented, for your next batch you can simply take a couple of tablespoons from the yogurt you have already made and use that as starter for you following batches :) Have you made your own yogurt before? It does come out a lot runnier then commercial yogurt. I believe Deb has experimented w/ adding gelatin to her yogurt to change the consistency. I would imagine you could use gelatin from your bone broth though.
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Interesting--I didn't know I could just use the probiotics. I'll have to try that. I've only made yogurt once, a couple years ago, and yes, it came out really runny, which I honestly hate that texture, so I never tried again. I'm a fan of the greek yogurt which is really thick, not the runny kinds. But Henry won't mind the runny texture--he's only just recently gotten better with the thicker, chunkier purees. He loves his broth.
I agree about the fat content being hard for them to digest. The two foods Henry has thrown back up were high fat foods. He handles the broth fine, but I think even though I leave the fat in it, it still probably isn't as fatty as an avocado or egg yolk. And other than the very first couple days, he always has had veggies and/or chicken pureed in with it as well, so its not straight fat. Too bad, though, because H really needs the high fat foods to put on weight.
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I didn't know I could just use the probiotics.
LOL, neither did I . I was looking for yogurt starter at the store and couldn't find any. When i looked it up online it seemed like all it was was active bacterial cultures (which probiotcs are, right?) So I figured I would try with the probiotics I already had in my fridge and it worked :) Go figure :) Saved me ordering yet another thing online! :P
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A question for my knowledgeable ladies: James has wound up on antibiotics :( due to this nasty sickness we haven't been able to shake. Not real happy about it, but he's been so sick. :( Anyway, ran out and bought him some probiotics today -- is it best to give them with meals or away from meals -- Rebecca, I feel like you were talking about this on a thread the other day. I know I'm supposed to space them from when he gets the antibiotics (so they basically don't cancel each other out), but not sure where the meals fit in too. Anyone know what's best?
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Rebecca, just read your comment on *Becky's* thread about M's rash where you suggested bone broth. That's another good idea, I've got a bunch in the freezer still so I can make sure he gets more of that too. :)
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And Kim, most of my best friends are hippies. :)
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Sorry just a really quick post until later. So my Mom bought this hard core blender which I adore. It's a vitamix and it's AMAZING! Anyways it makes juice which is almost as thin as a juicer makes it except, the pulp is blender in :-\ Do you think freshly pressed versus something like this makes a big enough difference for me to buy another appliance?
Thank you!!!
Madly making almond milk, soup and scones for tomorrow! ;D
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Yay for your first "official" day tomorrow Jenn!!
Vitamix, a few ladies were talking about this on the Organic Thread. Justine shared this link and it was helpful when I read about it. http://www.all-about-juicing.com/the_vitamix.html Many ppl who have the Vitamix also use a real juicer for the full benefits of juicing. I don't have one, but from what I've read, the Vitamix seems very versitile and it does look like it would be particularily helpful when you're cooking everything from scratch like we're doing. As an actual therapeutic juicer, my verdict is still out on that one. We're doing juicing with a real juicer and from what I've read the pulp needs to be removed for maximum high nutrient absorbtion. The link I posted above talks a bit more about the differences between juicing and a high power blender. The fibre might not be an issue for you, but down the road if you start juicing for Emily you may need something that removes the pulp ??? You'll still get tonnes of nutrition from a high power blender, again, it's just different and a different theory behind it, kwim?
((hugs)) Erin. So sorry to hear James is still under the weather. Hopefully his little immune system revvs up soon! Yes, you definitely have to wait between dosing probiotics and antibiotics. They should be taken as far away from the antibiotics as possible (for example, if the antibiotics are to be taken every eight hours, the probiotics should be taken about four hours after the antibiotics). Probiotics should be continued a week to a month after the antibiotic treatment period to replenish any beneficial bacteria lost during the antibiotic use.
As for the "best" time to take it around food.. well, I've read a lot about that. In GAPS it's suggested to take a probiotic first thing in the morning with a full glass of water or when juicing. I've also read a half hour after a meal seems to be one of the best times to take a probiotic because the pH of the stomach is the highest at that time. The pH of an empty stomach is about 1 or 2. The pH of a stomach after a meal is 4 or 5 because the gastric juices have been diluted by the food. The higher the pH, the more bacteria will survive the journey to the small intestine. The more that survive the better your ecology will be. To be a probiotic, a bacteria must be resistant to gastric, bile, and pancreatic juices in order to survive the trip and arrive in the small intestine alive and able to do its job. Lactobacillus is one that is resistant to the acids.
The problem is when taking it with food, the digestive enzymes that the body produces to digest will likely kill a lot of the probiotic, kwim?
Definitely give him lots of bone broth :D And if you have a juicer, I would consider juicing for him as well... maybe carrot juice, broccoli, apples ect. Easy to digest in that form and loaded with high vitamin therapy.
HtH :)
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Thanks Rebecca, that makes lots of sense. :)
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Okay...I am back!
Thank you very much for all of your answers! Oh, and I, of course, think my avatar is pretty cute too ;)
Okay, thats sort of what I was talking about with my Mom in regards the the blender versus juicer. I just want to avoid yet another cost at this time of course. My Mom has a juicer but she uses it all the time which makes it a bit harder to share. She uses the blender all the time also but I think I have my hubby convinced that I can't live another second with one ;)
We never eat fish either (I just cannot stand it!) so we got the fish oil supplement. I ordered a FCLO also. Then we have our probiotics of course.
AWESOME news that Arthur was able to have that much broth! that much feel like such an accomplishment after his struggles! ;D Great news about the cow also! I really need to look into doing something like that because it is impossible to find any organic beef in the health food stores in Calgary. There is lots of chicken but NO beef or bones :( I can only handle eating chicken for so long :P
GREAT weight gain, Kim!!! Amazing! That also must feel like a great accomplishment.
((((hugs)))) Erin! Having a sick LO is never fun. I hope James gets better soon :-*
Oh all this talk of yogurt reminds me that i need to make some for Ethan. I am not doing dairy because of Emily but he is fine with yogurt and he loves it so I'm going to keep that in his diet. Otherwise the poor kid might go crazy. I am making apple chips right now hoping that he likes them and makes him feel like he's having a "snacky" food.
Alright, I better head off to bed!
(((hugs))) Girls!
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Go Jenn!
(I'll be your cheering section!)
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Julia is getting from bad to worse. I just don't undestand what's going on. She was doing SO much better before we intoduced the probiotics, but she is worse than ever now, even though I stopped giving it to her on Monday.
She has terrible tummy pains,wind and diarrhoea that soaks into the nappy with undigested food bits through it.
Megan, you were saying that Milo couldn't handle probiotics? Is this how he reacted? How long after you stopped the probiotics that he was better again.
We are going to see a regular doc this afternoon. I think they will suggest taking her back to just elemental formula. They were going to do this but I wanted to try GAPS first.
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((hugs)) Jutka. I wish I knew what else to say ... :(
What would a regular doc suggest to do about the parasites, fungus, bad bacteria she seems to be presenting with in the stool test I wonder?
GO JENN!!! So exciting! Sound like you're uber prepared! I'm cheering you on too!! Oh, and I was thinking... once you get to the point where you can give Emily FCLO you probably won't have to supplement her with the Ddrops since the FCLO is extremely high in Vit D & Vit A. That could help cut down on the supplements cost a wee bit.
Thanks for the support RE bone broth! I have to admit, these small accomplishments really are motivating. I was starting to feel a bit discourage - as if Arthur would have to be EBF'ed until he was like 5!! LOL! ;) Even just a wee bit of progress is amazing!! Going to try for even more bone broth today. I'm hoping his poops are still pretty cosistent even with the extra broth. We shall see...
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How did things go at the Drs, Jutka? Is Julia feeling any better?
How's your first couple of days going full gaps Jenn?
Arthur seems to be doing quite well with the soup stock now!! YEA!! He managed about 1/2 cup total yesterday drank throughout the day. Today was a bit less, but that's still progress :) I'm offering the broth from "breakfast", "lunch", and "dinner". I think if we get a good week+ of just the broth in him I may try with some livers again or maybe some juiced carrots, not sure ???
I gave him 1/2 a capsule of the vital immune klaire labs probiotic yesterday to add to our supplement regime. He had no problems with it so today I gave him the full capsule. Probably too early to tell if it's doing anything, but it's getting in his system.
This might sound like a funny question, but what's the deal with burps? Good or bad in terms of digestion? Arthur hasn't burped in ages... then yesterday and today he's burped a bit. Not a lot and it's not painful or anything, just a couple burps. I'm wondering if his stomach acid might be revving up? I don't think I read anything about burps in the gaps books.
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Found some great info on FCLO from the WAPF website. If you scroll down, it lists different locations/websites around the world that sell the best types of FCLO http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oil/cod-liver-oil-basics#brands
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Rebecca--from what I understand, probiotics can increase the gas in our systems, so I'd imagine its normal for more burps and passing gas from them. But I could be totally wrong.
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That makes sense Kim :) Especially considering he's been burping the past 2 days I've been giving him the extra probiotics.
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Thanks for the link about the FCLO! We can actually get Blue Ice FCLO here in our town but I really wanted capsules so I went ahead and ordered the capsules online.
Things are going alright so far. Not my favorite thing in the world, that's for sure, but managing none the less. Ethan was sick yesterday but seems fine today and he is t eating much.
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I wonder who came up with making fermented cod liver oil? Seems a very unlikely thing to produce for consumption. Have to assume it was some very healthy indigenous people somewhere who were big on "use every part of the animal". Sorry for the randomness LOL. :)
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I wonder who came up with making fermented cod liver oil? Seems a very unlikely thing to produce for consumption. Have to assume it was some very healthy indigenous people somewhere who were big on "use every part of the animal". Sorry for the randomness LOL. :)
LOL! Not even random!! So true!! Learning about all of these traditional healing foods makes me wonder the same too!! It's a shame we've gotten so far away from this form of medicine, especially if it's effective. I mean, it's just so simple sometimes! (but Big Pharma can't make a huge profit on all of these natural remedies of course ::) ) According to NCM, FCLO has been around for centuries - and starting in the 18th century EU doctors started using it as medicine. Even the Roman Empire used to ferment fish livers for food/medicine.
I've read that the fermentation process itself was discovered by earlier civilizations for food preservation - since there obviously wasn't any refridgerators back then! Many EU and Russian cultures always used fermented foods to accompany meals for digestive purposes. Unfortunately now, due to the fast pace processed food boom, almost all of these slow fermenting processes get skipped. Also, another reason it gets skipped is uniformity. The traditional fermenting process is somewhat unpredictable, so to make a product the same each time is virtually impossible. Each batch of sauerkraut I make always comes out a bit different. I guess from an industry perspective that's not so great, b/c the consumer may not continue to buy your product over and over again if it doesn't taste the same each time, kwim?
Such interesting stuff!
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Jutka - I gave Milo probiotics 1x and he seemed ok that day but his night was absolutely horrible - he was up about every 45 min to an hour and I'm pretty sure it was tummy pain and gas. I didn't give him the probiotics the next day b/c I can't handle nights like that - he's up every 2 hrs on an average night and that's FAR too much. So I ordered the infant probiotics from Klaire Labs and he seems to tolerate those a bit better though he might have gotten a little bit of eczema from them for a day or two (or it could have been b/c of something else)
How is Julia doing now?
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Just got a reply back on the gaps FB thread about Fenugreek:
"fenugreek can cause a big blood sugar drop- so you'd want to be really careful since you'll be dropping carbs on the diet."
Maybe that's why some of you ladies are feeling really hungry after making the dietary changes ??? ... if Fenugreek drops blood sugars and you're already dropping a lot of sugars it could definitely trigger hunger I would think. Hummm...
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So I ordered the infant probiotics from Klaire Labs and he seems to tolerate those a bit better though he might have gotten a little bit of eczema from them for a day or two (or it could have been b/c of something else)
I think the eczema is a normal reaction when first starting probiotics since the gut is still healing. I'm glad he seems to be tolerating the infant probiotics a bit better :)
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Maybe that's why some of you ladies are feeling really hungry after making the dietary changes
I'm not taking Fenugreek as it wasn't strong enough for me... I'm taking domperidone. There is also a product called Goat's Rue, which is supposedly stronger than Fenugreek, but the capsules have (non GMO) soy lecithin in them, so if your bub is sensitive to soy, you could check to see if the liquid form has soy in it.
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Thanks for the info Rebecca and Megan!
Love the new avatar Rebecca. I have a VERY similar photo of the four of us except we had been doing photos down by the river beforehand and the photographer never mentioned that our feet were dirty ::)
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Anyone have any favorite recipes (especially for baking) they are willing to share? I think I'm running into a brick wall with this gaps diet for Ellen and I think I need to spice things up a bit for her...
Rebecca - what is your recipe for the coconut flour thing with 6 eggs that you were talking about? Also, if burps are good for digestion, then Milo is top-notch. I still have to burp him at almost a year old :-\ I think burping is just swallowed air...
Posted at the same time Jenn - that would be awesome with dirty feet!! How lovely!!!
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We made apple cinnamon scones. They have quite a bit of honey in them though. Ethan really enjoyed them.
2 1/2 cups almond flour
1 tsp ground cinnamon
1/2 tsp sea salt
2 eggs
4 tbsp honey
1/3 cup melted butter or coconut oil (I used coconut oil)
1 apple, chopped
Preheat oven to 350. Grease a baking sheet with butter or coconut oil or line with parchment paper. Mix all ingredients well. Fold in apple. Drop 1/4 cup of dough onto baking sheet and shape into triangles. Recipe says to cook for 15 minutes however, ours needed a bit longer 20 minutes or so.
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Hey everyone, :D we have been at the beach for the past 2 weeks, back into town now and checking in.
Poor old Kai (21 months) has started his treatment for Blastocystis hominis which unfortunately involves giving him antibiotics. It really sucks as the herbal treatment is 100% effective and gentle, but he can't tolerate the salicylates, so we have to do antiobiotics which are not effective but the next best option. Also he has never been on antibiotics before and I haven't whilst pregnant eith him something that I always held on to as a fantastic thing he had going for him :(
After antibiotics he will be on a gentle anti-microbal called Lauricidin for 3 motnhs to mop up all the blastocysts (eggs) which are highly resistant to the antibiotics. Lauricidin is a fatty acid derived from coconut.
We are on Day 5 of antibiotics at the moment and he is also taking probiotics between meals 4 times a day. He is also onLactoferrin which is for immune support and is dairy drevied but he can tolerate it... it starves the parasite of iron, as well as 1000mg Vit C per day for now and continuing a week after the antibiotics are stopped. He also takes many other supps that are unrelated to the parasite treatment but all promote long term gut healing. He is also still on reflux meds, so all the supplements, meds and timings for giving them are pretty crazy and time consuming now right now but I am holding the fort, its only another week and the antibiotics will be done with and all will be a bit easier. It is very hard to administer them to him as they taste nasty - no additives or flavour and needs alot of maple syrup to be added and mixed, then syringed into his mouth with hubby making sure he doesn't spit it out.
Unfortunately both my boys have picked up a virus and have fever and are listless, it is horrible but I have to continue with the antibiotics. After talking with my naturopath we have decided to give him 250mg of Vit C every hour for until he develops loose stools (they are not painful for them)- this will tell us that his body has had hit his requirement and then hold that dose minus 500mg and split into 4 times a day until he is better, then go back down to the 1000mg per day dosage for a week after he is better.
Jukta:
She has terrible tummy pains,wind and diarrhoea that soaks into the nappy with undigested food bits through it.
How long ago did she start probiotics? What you described above can be part of a normal die-off and adjustment period to starting probiotics. It usually takes a few days to build up to tummy cramps and loose stools, and disappears within a week if you just take the dosage down a little and give a little more time for her body to adjust. It means they are working well. So don't dispair. :) Can you email or call your practicioner that prescribed them to get some reassurance?
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Jukta:QuoteShe has terrible tummy pains,wind and diarrhoea that soaks into the nappy with undigested food bits through it.How long ago did she start probiotics? What you described above can be part of a normal die-off and adjustment period to starting probiotics. It usually takes a few days to build up to tummy cramps and loose stools, and disappears within a week if you just take the dosage down a little and give a little more time for her body to adjust. It means they are working well. So don't dispair.
This is what I feel as well.
Megan: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=220329.0
A basic bread I make almost daily is: 6 eggs, 1/2 cup coconut flour, 1/4 cup coconut oil, a couple tbsp of honey, 1 tsp ginger, 1 tsp cinnamon, 1 tsp salt. Mix well and bake @ 350 for approx 35-40 mins. - you can also ad a cup or so of squash to this to make it more of a "pumpkin/zucchini type bread"
You can also use that same basic recipe (6 eggs, 1/2 c coconut flour, 1/4 c coconut oil) and mix in 3 mashed ripe bananas for a type of banana bread. All of the "bread" recipes can be turned in muffins as well.
Coconut flour can be tricky to bake with at first as it requires a lot of moisture, I was saying earlier that the 6 eggs to 1/2 cup coconut flour seems to be a great ratio. On the Paleo recipe thread I also posted a link with tips on baking w/ coconut flour :)
Charlie loves the "breads" we make :)
((hugs)) Eloise!! and healing vibes to Kai!! That sounds so hard!! I really hope he shakes it soon. I know NCM has some natural remedies in the gaps books you could possibly do in conjunction to the antibiotics/supplements you're doing. A lot of them involve chopped onions and garlic, so I don't know how easy that would be to get into your boys...not to mention the Sals in them :-\ Sounds like you're doing everything right!! You're one dedicated Mama!! I know, spacing out/timing all of the supplements can be so challenging!
I wanted to ask - what's the dose of zinc you have Kai on? and how do you administer it to him?
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thanks for the recipes and links! I'm excited to try some baking!
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Hey Megan , thanks! There are so many options I would have pursued for treating Kais parasites other than antibiotics but they all are high sals :( Onions are no go.
That recipe sounds pretty good, I make a grain free bread for Kai too its made from chickpea flour though, and I know on Gaps that isn't allowed right?
Kai is on 25mg of zinc a day as zinc piccinolate, powdered form. I mix it with little mashed bananna amd give it to him that way. I get mine frmo a chemist here as part of a compund with many other supps in it, but I believe you can buy it from iherb.com. Man that website is amazing for supplements, it is sooo cheap!!! I ordered something on Dec 24th from the USA on that site and it arrived on the Dec 27th -there are two days in there where there is no post!
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Yes, chickpeas are out.. too starchy I believe.
Thanks for the tips re: zinc. I have never seen the powder, but I'm sure it's easy enough to grind up a capsule.
I was brave and gave Arthur about 1/8 tsp of Coconut Oil this morning. He really liked it. So far, no reactions I can tell - although he still has his full body rash from a few weeks ago... pretty sure it's still die off, but who knows?! I mean, if it was just from the little bit of egg he had last week, you'd think it would be gone by now, right? :-\ It's still a very mild rash on his legs/tummy, the bulk of it is around his mouth and on his cheeks. He looks like a 13 y/o with really bad acne :( Hopefully he clears out all the gunk soon. It really doesn't seem like it's bothering him. He's still his same chipper, active self... so weird.
Hope the baking is going well Megan :)
Better get to soup making while the boys are sleeping!
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Haven't tried the baking yet :( I don't have any coconut flour... I tried to make some out of shredded coconut but I couldn't get it fine enough so I guess I'll have to order some. I did try some new cooking recipes today and they were a hit with both of them.
Could his rash be b/c of the digestive enzymes and not the egg? Or anything else new you are giving him? I agree it seems like the egg would be gone by now...
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humm... good point Megan. I guess it could be the enzymes. I did just recently up them... ??? Maybe I'll stop them altogether for a few days and see if it helps. Thanks for the suggestion. The enzymes hadn't even crossed my mind!
The Coconut Flour we use is called "Lets do Organic". I really like it. It's in a small bag, but a little goes a long way :) Here's a bulk pack from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Do-Organic-Coconut-16-OuncePouches/dp/B002O1IEII
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So I think I may have gotten to the bottom of DD's rashes. It happened again tonight (her hands get bright red and a bit puffy and rashy) and it dawned on me that I'd made our pasta primavera with coconut oil in addition to olive oil. And then I realized that when it happened last week I'd used coconut oil in dinner that night too. Now I don't think it's a coconut allergy - but more of a yeast thing - since coconut oil is a natural antifungal. I WAS on antibiotics twice while pregnant with her (once after an emergency appendectomy at 16 weeks and once after a BAD UTI), she was on abx immediately after being born for a mystery fever and she's been on abx a few times in her 6.5 years.
I emailed my holistic practitioner and am wondering how best to proceed - am thinking maybe caprylic acid and/or a targeted probiotic - like S. Boulardi which has show to be very effective against yeast?
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Thanks Rebecca - I'd been looking at nuts.com. It was just the first one I clicked on so far, but it seems they have lots of raw and/or organic nut products too. I just skimmed the site though, so I'll have to look more closely before I buy...
Karen - yay for figuring it out!!
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but more of a yeast thing - since coconut oil is a natural antifungal. I WAS on antibiotics twice while pregnant with her (once after an emergency appendectomy at 16 weeks and once after a BAD UTI), she was on abx immediately after being born for a mystery fever and she's been on abx a few times in her 6.5 years.
THIS completely makes sense!! Good detective work Mama!! Betcha she's getting die off from the coconut oil!
You know, the only difference between Ds1 and Ds2's pregnancies was that I had to go on a dose of abx during Ds2's pregnancy. I had no idea at that time that I *should* have upped probiotics and also "prepped" my vagina with extra probiotics so Ds2 would get them as he passed through the birth canal. I'm convinced I had a bacterial imbalance at the time of his birth due to the abx and that's how he inherited the "bad" bacterias we're trying to deal with now.
Coconut Oil gave me a huge reaction - at first I couldn't even tolerate it, I had shortness of breath, felt dizzy, it was really something else. I stopped for a few weeks then slowly started to reintroduce it 1/4 tsp at a time, now I eat it by the tbsp no problem.
Does your DD follow the G/F diet you are on now? It might be worth limiting her carbs as well as the caprylic acid/targeted probiotic?
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Nope, I'm the only one who is GF. I can certainly try to reduce her carbs some but it won't be easy at all. Will likely be easier to at least focus on limiting sugars. The amount of coconut oil in her sauce couldn't have been more than 1/2 tsp!
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You know, the only difference between Ds1 and Ds2's pregnancies was that I had to go on a dose of abx during Ds2's pregnancy.
Me too, only Milo got a double whammy b/c I had abx during birth (for strep B) with Ellen which upset my flora for Milo in the first place (I was pg three months later) and then had abx for his birth too b/c of strep B. :-\
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Yup - despite DS's other issues (dairy intolerance and some gut issues) I was NOT on abx at all during his pregnancy and he didn't need them after being born and has only had one ear infection. He does tolerate probiotics and coconut oil fine!
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It's funny about the abx, I was on them once during dd1's pregnancy and she was on them a bunch of times as a baby, I wasn't on them at all during dd2's pg but had the abx for GSB and she didn't need them until she was 3 I think, she's been the healthier of my two. Wasn't on them at all during ds' pregnancy and despite being GSB+, he was born 40ish minutes after we arrived at the hospital (about 10 minutes after getting into the room, stupid paperwork!) so no time for the abx -- since we stayed in the hospital for 48 hours and he was doing ok, they didn't give him any abx after the birth either -- I think he's gone the longest out of my 3 without getting any sort of sickness. Wonder what the correlation is?
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Wonder what the correlation is?
The abx kills your good flora. Your good flora is what makes up and strengthens your immune system.
Your vagina is a very richly populated place for flora, so as baby passes through the birth canal it gets whatever flora is flourishing (good/bad). If you were on any abx during your preg it can very likely kill off your good flora that baby is supposed to get, leaving baby with some of the not so good types. If the bad bacteria outnumbers the good, the immune system is compromised - making room for additional illnesses, food intolerances ect.
I read in the GAPS book that in many cultures they actually "prep" the vagina in the weeks before birth with yogurt soaks to help populate it with good flora (go figure! - why don't our OB's/MW's know this?!) You can even put a probiotic capsule up there every day just as you would evening primerose oil. Wish I knew all of that before!
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Interesting...so it seems we should do a better job making sure there's every opportunity for the good bacteria to be passed on. So, how does this fit in with c-sections when babies don't pass through the birth canal? This is all very interesting!
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Interesting...so it seems we should do a better job making sure there's every opportunity for the good bacteria to be passed on. So, how does this fit in with c-sections when babies don't pass through the birth canal?
You bring up a good point :) From what I've read, the thought is that c-section babies are first colonized with bacteria from their environment - whether its the close contact w/ mom/dad, nurses/drs in the hospital, the air or even just surfaces they innitially come in contact with very soon after birth. The bacterias culture within the first few days of life - the same as what would happen to a vaginally birthed baby.
I have read in many natural parenting circles that this is one of the biggest arguments against c-sections atm, because they are robbing the baby of the chance to get Mom's beneficial flora. Funny, because after I read about it I thought back to all of my friends who have had sections - every single one of them who had sections have some sort of GI issues with their babies... coincidence ???? Knowing what I know now, I don't think so.
"The gastrointestinal (GI) tract of a normal fetus is sterile
· the type of delivery has an effect on the development of the intestinal microbiota
o vaginally born infants are colonized with their mother’s bacteria
o cesarean born infants’ initial exposure is more likely to environmental
microbes from the air, other infants, and the nursing staff which serves as
vectors for transfer"
It's that first innitial contact with the world outside the womb that has the greatest impact on what bacterias, fungus, ect get established.
Again, there's always good & bad within all of us, but the key is to have the good outnumber the bad, as the good bacterias create an army to keep the bad guys at bay, kwim?
I posted about this on the "virgin gut" thread, but NCM believes the 3 biggest factors in the "boom" of abnormal gut flora in babies are 1) Increased use of Anti-biotics used by both mother and baby 2) Increased use of the birth control pill and other hormone disrupting contracptive measures by the mother (apparently these hormone imbalances wreak havoc on your intestinal flora which kills the good bacterias 3) The decrease in breastfeeding (since the compounds in FF create an environment ideal for bad bacteria to flourish. Also the FF baby misses out on the immunal factors of BM, thus leaving them prone to more illnesses/infections as a child. So that child is then given abx, which kills off even more good flora and the cycle amplifies)
I completely agree with her, but after much reading on the subject would definitely have to add the increase in c-sections to that list as well. I can't remember if she talks about it in the book or not, but the links are unbelievable!.
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Hi, I'm back. Sorry I haven't been in touch.
Julia was getting from bad to worse even after I stopped the probiotics so for a few days we went back to just formula as per our gp to see if she would settle. Well, her diarrhoea did settle but her skin didn't! So at least I now know that it's not the food she is getting that is making her eczema worse.
We went to the biomed dr yesterday and he agreed we had to take it a lot slower with the probiotics. Die off or not, it was just far too much for her (and me!) Her poo was mucusy, she was absolutely miserable and she had a swollen eye lid once, all after I started them. Even after I stopped them, she was not improving.
So we made the following plan:
Start with biogaia for a week, then my friend is coming over from home (Hungary) and bringing me probiotics that doctors use there. It's completely different from the others. It only has a type of soil bacteria (clausii) and purified water. Nothing else. It's meant to kill off the bad guys, encourage the good guys to grow and help immunity. If she tolerates that, we will add lactobacillus acidophilus from Klair Labs instead of biogaia.
He wants me to put the solids (squash, swede, chicken and stock) back into her diet. When I said about the fibre irritating the gut, he just said she needs some and also the probiotics need them to be able to grow. Then he wanted to give her graphefruit seed extract to help the inflammation of her gut but it had soya in it and modified straches so I didn't agree to use it. Then he suggested to order Iva Ursi bearberry tincture from I-herb. Has anyone heard of this? I'm still to look into it.
He confirmed again that she is the worst he has ever seen, such inflammation markers that she has, he only saw with ppl with Chron's disease... She produses virtually no acid, there is no bile production. There is no lactobacillus in her gut but 5 types of bad bacteria and 2 fungi...
It's gonna be a long haul because her gut is so sensitive to change and we can't go in with the KlairLabs Infant just yet.
Thanks for the link about the FCLO! I found a great British link but they only seem to have FCLO in capsules. Is the liquid stuff so much better?
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Just read your post, Rebecca. Very insteresting as the dr yesterday was wondering why Julia is SO bad and couldn't come up with an answer.
She was full term with a normal delivery, breastfed straight after birth. I don't think I have severe digestive issues, I have some (bloating on occassion etc) and on the whole eat quite a healthy, varied diet.
The only 2 things I can put it down to is antibiotics during pregnancy and delivery and exposure to formula soon after birth (before milk came in) - but only a few ounces!!! She really shouldn't be this bad...
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There are other factors that play in too, it's not just gut flora... My sister has 3 c-section babies and only one of them has what I would call behavioral problems (though no obvious gut problems). My other sister had 2 vaginal births and they both have allergies and one of them is really bad with lots of food intolerances and asthma. I'm glad you said no to the GSE though, Milo's pretty sensitive (though maybe not so much as Julia) and he couldn't tolerate it. It's very strong stuff - I only gave him 1/5 of one drop. Big hugs and I'm glad you have a good plan in place!!
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Edited--there were 4 new replies before I finished this, but I don't have time to read them all right now. Hope what I said stil makes sense :)
I think I remember reading that C-section leaves the gut more open for population by whatever comes along, which in the case of feeding them formula can be problematic. I'm sure even BF babies it would just depend on what the mom is eating? So if you were on a diet high in probiotics, it would probably work out best for the baby? I can't remember for sure what I read.
So, I was on abx during all 3 of my pgs (I'm prone to UTI's while pg), and my other kids didn't have these same issues, although they did all have MSPI issues for the first year. But what was different this time around is that I've had a couple yeast infections a year since having Abe. I'd never had one before that, but its been an on and off again struggle for the last few years. Wonder if that means our main culprit is Candida overgrowth. . .
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Thanks Rebecca, that's interesting! I appreciate you sharing all your knowledge with my curious self. :)
Jutka, poor Julia! I do hope you find something to help her soon!
Megan - I'm trying to think now about my friends and c-sections vs. Vaginal births - seems a mixed bag to me as well but who knows?
Kim - someone was saying the coconut oil is a natural anti-fungal - has it gotten better with all to coconut oil you've been eating?
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That was me (saying coconut oil is a natural anti-fungal). Speaking of which I sent DD to school today with a hardboiled egg, apple slices and a piece of Ezekial bread for lunch. Instead of putting only butter on it after toasting it I put on maybe 1/4 tsp of coconut oil as well. Will see if we can work on it that way and then add in probiotics and/or caprylic acid!
So sorry to hear Julia is still struggling. HUGS
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Oh ya, all of those factors (abx, c-section, BCP, FF vs BF) don't mean you'll for sure you're baby will have a gut imbalance or neurological issue, but your baby could be more prone to it under those certain circumstances, kwim? And there's so many environmental factors that come into play as well. I find the topic facinating though. From what I've read, the research really is quite compelling.
Jutka, Aww poor Julia. It does sound like you have a good plan in place! You really are doing amazing. Her poor little tummy! I can't believe the bacterial imbalance/fungi!! I read a bit about the soil probiotic in the GAPS book. That does sound like it might be a good option :) I've never heard of Iva Ursi... will have to look into it. Please share what you find as well, I would be interested to know about it. Also, what did the Drs say about the FF? Are you thinking you might try the homemade HAF?
Healing vibes to your DD, Karen!!
Kim - from what you say, I think you're right on the money! Has Henry ever had the Microbiology Stool test done? I think the Candida overgrowth completely makes sense, especially with your history this past pregnancy.
I'm so anxious to get our results back from the Microbiological Stool test/OAT! Part of me is dying to know what's going on inside Arthur's little gut, the other part is almost scared to find out :-\ Feb 15th seems so far away!
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So I think Megan was right about the enzymes. I didn't give any to Arthur today and after I nice long detox bath quite a bit of his face rash is going away. So perhaps the dose we were working was too much ??? I'm going to keep him off of them until the rash completely disappears and try again with the lowest dose that he seemed to be fine with.
He's now up to 25 bil CFU/day of probiotics, so I think that's got to be pretty therapeutic! I also gave him some more coconut oil today which he seemed to enjoy :)
I think next will be trying some chicken livers again. I may puree them with some broth and see if that helps him keep them down.
Oh Erin, if you aren't sick of info :P This was the article/audio where I first came across GAPS. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/07/31/dr-natasha-campbell-mcbride-on-gaps-nutritional-program.aspx I've posted this before, so you may have already read it, but it's quite informative. It explains NCM's thoughts on how babies get gut dysbiosis and how it manifests to other things.
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There are other factors that play in too, it's not just gut flora...
Definantly. I have significant yeast problems yet Kai's digestive stool analysis shows now yeast. He has several strains of bad bacteria in overgrowth but they are not soo bad, none of them are the nasty types such as Colostridium. He has very low levels of the good bacteria though which ibviously is a problem... but anyway what I am getting to that his MAIN problem seems to be biochemical in nature. He has very low zinc and he has Pyroluria. This means his body cannot utilise and absorb zinc andB6 and he needs to be on gigh doses for 6-12 month to correct this. Without b6 and zinc one cannot detoxify foods or produce digestive enzymes and gut dysbiosis is a result of this biochemical imbalance.
His food intolerances and food sensitivites seem to be stemming from low zinc and Pyroluria... his liver is under a huge work load as it cannot produce digestive enzmyes to much capacity or stomach caid for that matter without zinc. You need zinc to produce stomach acid. I know his liver is struggling because without his supplement he can't tolerate as many salicylates or hard proteins such as well cooked eggs, he wakes at night around 3am for a few hours and developes drak circles under his eyes (classic liver issues) does egg farts and awful sulphur poo.
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He wants me to put the solids (squash, swede, chicken and stock) back into her diet. When I said about the fibre irritating the gut, he just said she needs some and also the probiotics need them to be able to grow. Then he wanted to give her graphefruit seed extract to help the inflammation of her gut but it had soya in it and modified straches so I didn't agree to use it. Then he suggested to order Iva Ursi bearberry tincture from I-herb. Has anyone heard of this? I'm still to look into it.
I was thinking about this and reading through the GAPS faq... NCM sometimes puts patients on zero carb diets (so only meat, soup stock and fats) until the gut is in a more stable place, because the fibre can sometimes be so detrimental. Probiotics needing fibre to grown.. hummmm... I don't know for certian, but I think that's always been a myth. I know that inulin is used as a binding agent so probiotics can be put in a powdered form, but I don't believe they actually *need* the fibre to grow... I'll need to read more about that one.
Off to read about Iva Ursi.. then I really should sleep... :P
Posting as you posted Eloise - I completely agree. What you are saying is crutial and our ND also believes what you are saying about the biochemical component. The Zinc is key for certain. The sulphur poop smell is classic here as well in both boys (it's almost acidic smelling.. sort of like apple cider vinegar - sorry for the TMI)
Eloise, for liver detox, have you ever read about dandelion tea? You can make it quite mild and that could potentially help Kai's liver.
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Eloise, I wanted to ask - the brand of zinc picolinate from iherb is by "NOW"... and it contains rice flour (which is illegal on gaps) :-\ Are you familiar with any other brands? Unfortunately I don't have a chemist I could work with on supplements.
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I'll need to ask my nature about which product to buy for zinc piccinolate.....So will get back to you in a few days for that one.
I really wish Kai had access to herbs, flowers etc for kai, I would love to put him on milk thistle for his liver too, unfortunately he cannot tolerate herbs of any form due to his sals intolerance. A trial about 4 weeks back of marshmallow root was awful, and that herb does not contain as much sals as others, all herbs are exponentially higher in sals than the food he eats. It's a catch22 for him: what will make him better makes him sick!
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It seems as though fiber is overrated as being needed to poop, and in cases of really severe gut damage it's not a bad idea to forgo it entirely for a while.
I know this woman has done another post about why she had to go completely off vegetables, as in no fiber passing her lips for quite a long time, but this post about poop is the closest I can find to pretty much the same information. I figure no need to warn you about graphic poop pics and descriptions on this thread. LOL
http://theprimalparent.com/2011/08/31/understandingpoop-constipation-ibs-digestive-disorders/#more-1665
Inulin is a fiber that's considered to be a "prebiotic" that probiotics can feed on, but really, they just need a sugar of some sort. For fiber like cellulose, the "-ose" indicates that it's a sugar anyway. Here, read on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inulin . Oh, and note this little clip at the end of the article: "About 30–40% of people in Central Europe suffer from fructose malabsorption.[16] Since inulin is a fructan, excess dietary intake may lead to minor side effects, such as increased flatulence and loose stools in those with fructose malabsorption.[17] It is recommended that fructan intake for people with fructose malabsorption be kept to less than 0.5 grams/serving.[17]"
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Here you go- here is some pure zinc for you - Thorne Research Zinc Picolinate. If you react to this then you would be reacting to the capsules themselves. I asked on my Pyroluria Forum. They really do know their stuff there :)
http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Double-Strength-Zinc-Picolinate-180-Veggie-Caps/18460?at=0
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AWESOME!! Thank you Eloise!
Deb, I agree completely about te fibre. I think thats another reason why juicing is so key for GAPS people. Which makes me wonder, Jutka, could you JUST put Jutka on the meat, bone broth, fats and then juice any veggies (like carrots, broccoli ect) for her nutrients?
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Ah, girls, I really don't know what to do anymore! Started Julia back on organic chicken stock and a bit of chicken yesterday and she was a lot worse overnight. She was full of wind and needed a suppository to get rid of the wind and the poo (which was very smelly) and was up every 3hours to feed. She is mega hungry and unsettled. She didn't get any fibre, as I say, it was just the stock and bit of meat.
She also pood after lunch today and the mucous is now back! We haven't had mucous for months, only when I started the probiotic. Somebody also remarked this morning at a mums and tots group that her eyes were puffy. Since the only new thing is chicken, that could be the only cause. I hate to say this but she settled on HAF. It was the same as when I stopped breastfeeding, she was a lot better on the formula... But I can't keep her on that solely as she is so hungry.
I just don't understand as before I started her on probiotics a couple of weeks ago, she was doing so well on the chicken, swede and squash! Now that the probiotics are gone and I gave her gut almost a week of only HAF, she should be fine going back to that diet. But she is getting worse again and the mucous is freaking me out!
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I just don't understand as before I started her on probiotics a couple of weeks ago, she was doing so well on the chicken, swede and squash! Now that the probiotics are gone and I gave her gut almost a week of only HAF, she should be fine going back to that diet. But she is getting worse again and the mucous is freaking me out!
Wish I knew what to say :-\ ??? I just know that during healing they get worse before they get better, kwim? Especially with the probiotics into play.
Funny, b.c when we started this with Ds1 the same sort of thing happened. His poops immediately got better, then within a few weeks we had regression again. It was honestly the healing... and we're still going through it with him. It's like 2 steps forward, one step back. Just yesterday he had a huge diarrhea poop with undigested food. I don't know what to make of it except he's probably going through more healing b/c we really haven't changed anything for him. So today I've gone back to extra juicing for him in the hopes we can even things out again.
Kim reminded me of it actually, b/c I couldn't understand why something like homemade goats yogurt (which didn't seem to bother him when we first started the diet) all of a sudden bothered him. When the body heals, it makes us even more sensitive to things. Thats how I understand it anyways...
I can only imagine how frusterating and frightening this must be for you. I agree, the mucous really bothers me too when I see it. :(
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oh Eloise, can I just say I LOVE IHERB!! So cheap! :D Thanks again for that link. I've been taking zinc myself, but none for the boys just yet. I think I'll start getting that in them too :)
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i LOVE iherb too! I cannot believe things ship in 3 days to me all the way in Australia AND it is cheaper than the shops here ::)
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i LOVE iherb too! I cannot believe things ship in 3 days to me all the way in Australia AND it is cheaper than the shops here ::)
Seriously! My shipping was only $4 and then I got a random $5 discount at checkout.. I'll take that! :D
Eloise - so if you don't mind me picking your brain, where does the B6 fit into gut health in your Pyroluria healing? .. or does it not really pertain to the gut healing specifically? I have read of high dose Niacin (B6) being used in other natural healing circles for depression and even alcoholism but I don't think I've come across it in my GAPS specific reading.
Also I wanted to ask you, do you give Kai an enzyme supplement on top of the Zinc you're giving him? Or is the Zinc just supposed to help boost his own enzyme production?
Jenn, how are you doing? It's almost been one full week now, right? Feeling ok? How's Emily's tummy?
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We are doing okay. I am finding it really hard to stay away from sweets ::) But I am managing. Emily seems to be doing about the same. She has been doing alright. I did try and take her off her meds but it was a disaster. She still barely ever poops but I think that is from the medication more then anything. She wants food SO badly right now.
How quickly did you guys all notice results in your kiddos?
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Jenn - Milo had super mucousy poos and that stopped almost as soon as we started gaps. I think it has more to do with HIM not eating carbs than ME not eating them (I'll be honest, I've cheated a few times and had grains ::) ) Although BM changes with what you eat I don't think the *ratio* of carbs to protein to fat changes with what you eat, but I could be wrong...
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Julia was extremely constipated before we started GAPS and two days in she started going regularly on her own once I cut out grains and starchy veg. That was all her diet though since I'm not breastfeeding anymore.
She has diarrhoea since I put chicken and stock back in her diet and I don't know if this is an indication of her not tolerating this or just her system clearing out?!!
The chicken is organic and I phoned to enquire what they feed them with. I was told mixed cereal: what, soya and oats etc. and 80% is organic. They can't get non GM soya so that would be the non organic part. Apparently, they can sell something with organic label if min 80% is of organic origin. Since Julia is so bad with wheat, I'm wondering if it would be better to go with cornfed chicken but I can't find it organic.
Deb, thank you so much for the info on the fibre and inulin. I wonder whether Julia's terrible reaction to the klairlab infant probiotic was due to the inulin?
Rebecca, have you found anything on Uva Ursi? I'm not getting anywhere with it. Tbh, I'm not sure this biomed dr is right for us. He keeps suggesting things that are not in line with NCM. The plan he put in place for the probiotics to use was really my research. All the supplements/probiotics he suggested so far I couldn't go for because of some ingredient ie. soya, maltrodextrin. It feels like I'm doing the research and he just confirms that it's okay to go ahead with it and charges an absolute fortune for this...
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Ah Jutka, I feel the same way about a lot of the doctors I've seen, including somewhat the ND I've seen!! It's like we're leading them instead of the other way around!! I have decided (long ago really, but this just confirms it once again) that these doctors are only really good for the tests they can perform or order and the rest of it we have to figure out ourselves :-\ I feel for you!!
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Jenn, Arthur's reflux was gone within a few days of me starting full gaps. The constipation component I believe lies greatly within the probiotic treatment. Have you tried upping her dose a touch?
Jutka, I hate to say it, but GMO soy is super bad news. It's been proven in studies that the frankenstein-genes from GMO Soy can actually grow in the intestines of the animals who consume it. :-\ That said, what you're using is probably not horrible since its the chicken eating it and not Julia directly.. but I would wonder if the chicken feed is playing a factor. ??? I would be hesitent to get non-organic corn fed chicken as corn is another huge GMO crop, not to mention the antibiotics they use in conventional chicken.
I really do believe that Julia is going through die off though. I was wondering about Arthurs rash because last night he had a flare up around his mouth/cheeks when he had soup stock so I posted about it on the GAPS FB page. Sure enough a veteran GAPS Mama chimed in and said that just plain soup stock can produce powerful die off and what we were going through was common. I also read it was suggested to alternate detox baths with epsom salts, ACV and Baking Soda. We've mainly been doing just epsom salts every night, so I think I'll do a cup of ACV tonight instead.
So now I don't think it was the enzymes afterall. I'm going to try to back track a bit, b/c I think I went too quickly w. the additional probiotics, coconut oil, soup stock and enzymes all around the same time and didn't give much time for adjustment... (guess I got excited ::) :P )
But back to Julia... how much soup stock are you giving her? . As per the book, NCM only suggests a few tbsp the first week - along with some freshly pressed veggie juice (like carrot) and possibly some fats (such as FCLO, Olive oil ect) Once that is introduced slowly then you proceed to the next step (or "week" as it's laid out in the book)
Ah Jutka, I feel the same way about a lot of the doctors I've seen, including somewhat the ND I've seen!! It's like we're leading them instead of the other way around!! I have decided (long ago really, but this just confirms it once again) that these doctors are only really good for the tests they can perform or order and the rest of it we have to figure out ourselves I feel for you!!
Yes I agree totally. I'm much happier with the ND we are seeing but he's still not perfect (like the "FiveLac" he suggested that contained Dairy and GMO canola ::) *facepalm*) Ultimately we are the best advocate for our children.
Oh and about the Uva Ursi, the only thing I've really found was that some people use it to treat UTI and certain types of yeast infections...so perhaps his thinking is that it works similar to GSE to help kill off some of the Candida? I dunno though ???
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I just have a sec. Rebecca- we are up to 1/4 tsp twice a day of the klaire labs infant formula probiotics.
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Hummm... ok Jenn. You say she *might* be starting to enter solids territory? You could consider juicing carrots + celery for her. I have read that both do wonders for constipation. The other thing is Coconut Milk Kefir.. i have yet to make any, but have read quite a few ppl mentioning it for constipation on the gaps FB thread. ??? Do you do baby stretches with her? You know those ones where you make bicycle motions with her legs, put her feet above her head ect? I know that helps get things moving. One of the ND's we saw suggested castor oil massages in an "S" shape on Arthurs tummy to relieve constipation. So only using a small amount of castor oil externally on the tummy and massaging. I never tried it though b/c he started pooping consistently soon after that appt.
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A couple of questions about juicing (our juicer has finally arrived)
-do you juice the veg raw?
-are the bubs not starving, just getting the juice?
I was thinking of juicing the veg she is used to (squash and swede) as I don't know how she would react to something new. Both carrots and broccoli failed when I tried to introduce them as new veg months ago. Broccoli gave her loads of wind (but it was probably the fibre) and carrots gave her very sore tummy. Funny, my mum said that my sister couln't tolerate carrots when she was weaning her and she is the only one in my family with allergies (hayfever) apart from Julia.
Rebecca, I suppose I give her quite a lot of stock, I would estimate about 300ml/ day. I know you're meant to go slow but I'm not convinced about the HAF either as per NCM so trying to reduce it in favour of stock. It's hard cos Julia is so hungry, she would really eat well if she could, the poor pet.
What are the fats you're giving? I'm thinking of ordering FCLO and coconut oil. I suppose I would need to introduce them as a new food, go slow and check for any reactions.
I made some saurkraut as well but I don't think it's right, it smells "off" and there is a white layer on top...
Good to know some of you also have the same experience with NDs. I was pretty annoyed with him yesterday. It's such hard work doing everything yourself. I was so relieved that I can sit back now and let him lead me but it's not gonna happen. I get far more advice from you, girls!
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Jutka - have you tried liver or avocado yet? I think I've mentioned it before but I can't remember what you said... sorry if I'm being repetitive.
You could boil the liver and puree it with the veggies to make variations on flavor. Milo seems to be getting a bit sick of liver finally :-\
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I'm scared to try anything new just yet. Not sure when the time would be right to try something new? I was thinking I would let her system heal first but I could be waiting a few months at least then...
Milo seems so similar to Julia, except he is less sensitive. Does he have ezcema too? All my respect is yours, Megan for coping with the sleepless nights. I only did the "being up every 2 hours or less" for 5 months and I was a wreck! Rebecca, how does Arthur sleep for you?
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Jenn, I had another random thought - are you by chance eating bananas still? Those can cause constipation, even through BM
Jutka - You're supposed to juice raw. pg 303/304 in the GAPs book goes into it in more detail.
As for hunger, well, I can say this. I can't remember what part of the book NCM talks about it, but she mentions taking a tbsp of ACV (or lemon juice) first thing in the morning with a glass of water to restore the alkalinity of the body. Have you ever tried this? It actually makes you not hungry at.all. It's bizzar. I was giving Ds1 a tsp of ACV in the morning but then he refused to eat breakfast, so I stopped. But I remember reading in the book NCM talks about the body being it's its main detox phase between the hrs of 4am - 10am, so when we first wake up if we take the ACV with water and then have fresh pressed juice soon after your body finishes the detoxification process from the previous day/night and then is ready for a "real" breakfast closer to 10am. TBH, we do our juicing first thing, then we cook breakfast which takes about 15 minutes, and eat after that. I know *ideally* you're supposed to wait about 20 mins between juicing and a meal, or even wait until closer to 10am but that's what we do. Our breakfast is still closer to 8:30am (depending on when the boys get up)
I think you're probably right to juice things you know she's generally ok with. I would definitely try juicing a bit of broccoli again when you think she's ready if it's a fibre issue. Funny about the carrots. You know, about 2 months into starting GAPS I randomly got a weird rash on my hands for about 4 days every time I peeled carrots. Then it mysteriously went away!? I just figured it was die off related, but who knows.
Fats, yes I would introduce them slow. Specifically the ones that can cause strong die off (like coconut oil). Make sure you're getting unrefined virgin coconut oil. (there's a lot of refined, heavily processed ones that aren't good for you) Also FCLO I would introduce slowly too, since it is from a fish afterall. So far I have only given Arthur a bit of coconut oil, but I might back off until his rash calms down a bit. I think Cold Pressed Olive Oil is probably a good call too.
Your sauerkraut sounds just fine :D That white layer and bubbles are the fermentation process.. it's normal. Yes, it smells.. lol. As long as it's completely submerged in water and theres relatively no mould you're ok. (and even if you do see a bit of mould floating in the water you can just skim it off and the actual sauerkraut/juice is fine.) The fermenting process takes a bit of getting used to, but once you get the hang of it it's pretty easy.
I agree with switching more of the HAF for soup stock. I keep thinking you're doing the baby 'intro' diet, but really what you're doing with Julia is moreso the regular version of intro, silly me. I would just keep up what you're doing and gradually increase the stock until you have no more HAF as NCM says.
Sleep - I'm fortunate Arthur is a good sleeper. He had some nap troubles due to a sore tummy/gas back before we started GAPS when he was around 2/3ish months, but since then he's doing really well. For him, the gas, constipation, cramps ect seem to be all gone.. it's just him tolerating any food and still somewhat abormal poops that's the main issues with him atm.
Kim - I know you have cow shares, have you done beef stock yet for Henry? How does he like it? Do you get as much fat from it as chicken stock? I'm thinking about trying beef stock instead of chicken. I still don't understand the chin/mouth/cheek rash he's getting. I mean, I guess it really could be die off, but it just gets so red as soon as he eats it and soup drips on his chin I just don't know ???
Has anyone made Coconut Milk Kefir yet? I think that's next on my list. Anyone have a good link as to where to buy Kefir starter?
After a full day of no fibre for Ds1 yesterday, today his poop was pure liquid. (it killed his cloth diaper during nap!)*sigh* I guess it's still flushing him out. Can't wait until we get some more normal poops from him again.
I don't know how much longer I can keep food away from Arthur. I accidentally dropped a piece of avocado on the floor tonight when I was making dinner and he scooped it right up before I even noticed. Next thing I know he's sitting there gumming away ::) He kept it down though, so that's progress I suppose.
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Ok, so Black Elderberry - I was just reading about it again in my GAPS book (pg 305) Apparently it has very high immune boosting properties and is one of the most powerful antivirals known to man. Anyone tried it? I'm looking it up on Iherb right now...
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Found this on Iherb, looks pretty good to me... http://www.iherb.com/Herb-Pharm-Black-Elderberry-Alcohol-Free-1-fl-oz-29-6-ml/10090?at=0 NCM talks about adding fresh/frozen elderberries into freshly pressed juice for detoxing and immune building purposes. I would think a few drops of this would do relatively the same thing...
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DF kefir starter: http://www.culturesforhealth.com/water-kefir-grains.html
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Going to order some right now... as soon as I'm done looking through the rest of the website! Awesome stuff!! :D Man I'm a food nerd.
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Hey Deb, do you do Kombucha?
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Does he have ezcema too? All my respect is yours, Megan for coping with the sleepless nights. I only did the "being up every 2 hours or less" for 5 months and I was a wreck! Rebecca, how does Arthur sleep for you?
Yes, he has eczema too, but not very bad. Just small patches sometimes on his chin or cheek if I eat something his body doesn't like and sometimes small patches on his legs too. And yes, the nights are very draining :)
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I wish we were where you are, Rebecca! What's the chicken you're using? Is is 100% organic? What are they fed with? I was thinking of trying the beef stock, like you, as Julia seems to be getting worse now that I have put the solids back into her diet. Though, the only "solid" thing is the meat. She is getting very little fibre. The veg are cooked really well in the stock and pureed and then I even add more stock to it when I feed her so it's like a very thin soup with chicken pieces in it. Could I add olive oil to this for fats?
Still, I think I have to give the no fibre a go today. Last night she was very crampy and constipated again. This is after the frothy diarrhoea at lunchtime! And this morning her ezcema is a lot worse. Really red and new patches of it, too. Wish I could call this a die off, but surely it sounds more like a reaction?
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Hey Deb, do you do Kombucha?
I have tried making my own kombucha a number of times and every single time have grown mold that wasn't supposed to be there. that's before I became SuperMom, though, so maybe I should give it another go. LOL
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Quote from: tigerlilly905 on Yesterday at 10:24:37 PMHey Deb, do you do Kombucha?I have tried making my own kombucha a number of times and every single time have grown mold that wasn't supposed to be there. that's before I became SuperMom, though, so maybe I should give it another go. LOL
LOL! I totally want to give it a try! I think your superpowers will make the mould go away.
I wish we were where you are, Rebecca! What's the chicken you're using? Is is 100% organic? What are they fed with?
Yes, its 100% organic. I know the farmers and go their directly. Their feed is a mix. Mostly oats, barley, split peas but it does contain some soy for added protein (organic soy, but still soy). The only other possibility with the feed is they also put in a type of yogurt for a probiotic so the chickens can have better digestion (go figure!) I was thinking perhaps if the yogurt was dairy based then that could be doing it? Not sure though... I mean that would only be trace amounts if that. I defrosted my beef soup bones overnight and will get that stock going this morning. We'll see if it's any different.
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Rebecca, we haven't tried beef stock for Henry yet--I was holding out for a little while because I know some kids with dairy issues also have a hard time with beef, but I did give him a small piece of beef the other day and I think he was fine with that, so I'll probably go ahead and let him have some beef broth next time I make some. THat is really weird about A's reaction to the broth. Maybe the fat is too much for him to handle?
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Rebecca, you said somewhere you used probiotics to make yogurt? did you use them instead of a yogurt starter or did you use both? I just got a gallon of raw milk to make yogurt for Ellen. Also, is it ok to freeze half the milk to use for yogurt later or will this kill everything?
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Rebecca, you said somewhere you used probiotics to make yogurt? did you use them instead of a yogurt starter or did you use both?
Yes, I used about 1 tsp of the Klaire Labs, it turned out just fine. No yogurt starter. Once you have a batch of yogurt you can use a couple of tbsps of that for your starter for next batch.
Hummm on freezing.. I *think* it would be fine. I mean, we freeze BM for future use right? It might not be as good as fresh but it wouldn't ruin it I don't think.
Also, if you make it all into yogurt it lasts a really long time. Up to 2 months on more in the fridge. Longer its in there, the more sour it will taste, but it's not rotten.
Jealous you got raw milk. It's illegal to buy in Canada!! ::) You can produce it yourself or have it given to you on the down low by a farmer you know, but you technically can't buy it! Unreal >:(
Hummm Interesting about the beef, Kim. Do you have any sources I can read about kids w/ milk intolerances having a tough time with beef too? I think Jutka mentioned that as well but I've never read any literature about it. Geez, if Arthur can't tolerate beef broth we might have to go to fish stock. DH will HATE the smell :-\ It could be the fat, but I don't think it's that ??? and I do kinda have a hard time chalking it up to just die off. He's tolerating high doses of probiotics and the rash doesn't even flare up when he eats coconut oili (which is super detoxifying, right?) So I'm just not sure. We're going to be doing our own chickens here in the spring so I'll know exactly what's going into those birds, but until then we have to stick with our farm...
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Ok, I had a random thought, you could be right on the beef Kim and Jutka. I'm thinking back to when I first saw a bit of rash on Arthurs chin. It was around xmas when I first gave him that chunk of roast beef. :( My poor boy must have some severe leaky gut going on if he can't even tolerate ANY food without some sort of gut inflammation/reactions. Maybe I'll seriously have to say no to the foods component and just concentrate on EBF'ing and probiotics/supplements again. Feeling discouraged. Argh :(
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Found another potentially good brand of probiotics ladies... http://www.customprobiotics.com/pricing.htm Hypoallergenic and are GAPS legal. I'm considering either the 6 strain formula or the Infant one... not sure. I still have Klaire Labs to use up and I know they are helping, but what Deb said about the inulin might be causing some inflammation? I just don't know ??? Geez these supplements are getting expensive!
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Thanks :) a tsp of probiotics for how much milk? I was going to do probably 1/2 the gallon or so. And do you put anything at all in your broth? Could it be not the broth itself but something you add?
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1 tsp per 1 litre of milk.. not sure what that is gallon wise.
Nothing added in the broth, I make it with reverse osmosis filtered water :-\
I just got off the phone with the owner of Custom Probiotics. Super nice guy. He's sending me a free sample of their infant probiotic to try. He works with GAPS patients and knew exactly what I was talking about, which was nice. He also suggested I up my own personal consumption of probiotics to a minimum 100 bil CFUs per day as well so Arthur will get more probiotics through my milk. I'm currently taking 50 bil CFUs so I guess I'll try doubling it.
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Rebecca, I'm also suspecting the chicken. Julia is getting worse again, really bad constipation and very smelly poo - I just can't put this down to die off. The first thing I tried after just formula was chicken and she got worse straight away. It's either the chicken or the feed of the chicken but I can't find better than 80% organic with the non organic soya.
I feel very discouraged too. For us, that would mean going back to formula only again... Is beef stock defo not a good idea?
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Jutka, if she is hungy I would keep trying different foods until you get something that sticks. She knows what she wants and it's food! I think the broth is an excellent idea to try. :) :)
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I know the GAPS diet can be super helpful but have any of you with SUPER sensitive LOs that can't tolerate any foods had them tested for EE (Eosinophilic Esophagitis)? Basically such babies are allergic to almost all foods... FPIES is similar... Just a thought in case you need to go a different route (or in addition to what you are doing)?
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For anyone needing to convert metric to that other one, a litre is a bit bigger than a quart, so four litres is a bit more than a gallon. :)
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Thanks Karen, never heard of either but I will look into it. :) Er, I googled... that scares me :-\ See, at least I can be thankful that Arthur does tolerate my BM while I"m doing GAPS.. he was having really bad reflux & costipation before I started it. Since doing this diet he's actually able to tolerate my BM and no reflux and I've never had to medicate him, so I know something is working. I really feel the imbalance has to be in his gut, not the esophagus, but I guess it could be something to keep in mind if we get really stuck.
Thanks Deb - I was posting super quick earlier and couldn't remember the conversion for the life of me in my head! :P
I found a GAPS practitioner who is about 1.5 hrs away from us. I"m going to email her now to see what she says. Argh... here we go again.
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Oh, I forgot to say in my last post, have any of you done the ACV detox baths? Tonight was the first time I tried it. Before we've always done epsom salts or baking soda b/c the ACV we use is considerably more expensive. Anyways, I put 1 cup of ACV in the bath and within 10 minutes Arthurs rash substancially calmed down. His cheeks looked normal again. His chin was still blotchy and his legs still had some small bumps, but after a 25 min bath the difference was quite noticable. Very interesting. Of course my child has to benefit from the more expensive detox bath treatment ::) Now to look for bulk discounts on ACV...
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I'm glad that worked! I haven't tried that. Actually, I haven't done any detox baths with Henry. He's only happy for a bout 5 min. in the bath, so I don't know how to keep him in long enough for it to do any good.
(Love the foot picture! I've been wanting to get one of all our feet for awhile now. Have to put that on my to do list)
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Just connected with a Mom on the GAPS yahoo group. Thought I would share with you ladies what she told me.
"My now 18 mo old had similar symptoms without the reflux but with blood
and mucous in his stool. He's MUCH better now though we are dealing with excema
now so its a journey, not a destination.
Anyway, first take a deep breath. I was also really worried about my kiddo and
feeling terribly guilty etc. and really found that it was a waste of energy.
Once I channeled my concern into getting information and starting the diet,
things slowly got better. I'm not sure all of what we did here will help but
here are a couple ideas.
1. I started very slowly with probiotics, first baby biotic from the GAPS
website then BioGaia probiotic drops. I also pushed sauerkraut juice, beet
kvass early on. (He now gets 8T of skj per day and LOVES it so I say the sooner
you can start making your own, the better). I put the skj in a medicine dropper
and gave it to him throughout the day.
2. Absolutely restrict your diet. I didn't do intro b/c I was so hungry all
the time and it was not recommended by others on this list but some moms have
done so without much detox symptoms. Whatever you decide, you should stick to
healing foods: broth (unless he reacts through your milk, that I don't know
about), ferments, animal fat and organs.
3. I should also say that we did do nystatin and diflucan, not something others
here would recommend but our little guy was very uncomfortable. I only tell you
this so you have more info.
4. I gave my little one A LOT of fat. Spoonfuls of chicken fat from a roasted
chicken and that was it for meals. Jello soupy stuff from pot roast. As an
infant, I just sprinkled the fat with salt and he ate it. One of the biggest
things on the diet is getting fat in and when my guy didn't poop, if I pushed
the fat hard, he'd poop within 12 hours.
5. Last but not least, I'd start everything pretty slowly, except for your diet."
It helped me to read that. I think the SKJ is worth a shot. I also find it interesting that she says the animal fats relieved constipation.
I think my plan of action will be to go back to BM & probiotics for him until the rash completely clears, then perhaps try a bit of SKJ or other fermented juice. Who knows.. that's my plan after I've been wracking my brain for a couple hours... It might change tomorrow :P
Posting as you posted Kim, do you ever go in the bath with H? The only way I can keep my boys in the bath long enough for a detox bath is if DH or I have a bath with them. I guess it helps to keep them entertained.
Thanks, I kinda love the foot pic too. It's from our NB shoot when A was 1 week old.
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We have done a ACV detox bath with the kiddos. Thankfully both mine LOVE the tubs and I have to pry them out of it ::) It does get expensive. We used braggs ACV but have been alternating between Epsom salts and baking soda.
((((hugs)))) on your frustrations Rebecca! You will find a way through this; I just know it!
Just found out that our local butcher can get us organic beef! Yay!
I tried giving Emily some carrot juice and she wouldnt take it. I do eat bananas so I will stop eating them for a while. Somehow this will get figured out! I don't know what her deal is at night time, if it's discomfort related or what, but this girl is up at least 10 times a night :( SO frustrating!
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Eloise - so if you don't mind me picking your brain, where does the B6 fit into gut health in your Pyroluria healing? .. or does it not really pertain to the gut healing specifically? I have read of high dose Niacin (B6) being used in other natural healing circles for depression and even alcoholism but I don't think I've come across it in my GAPS specific reading.
Also I wanted to ask you, do you give Kai an enzyme supplement on top of the Zinc you're giving him? Or is the Zinc just supposed to help boost his own enzyme production?
Kai has been presribed digestive enzymes but I am not a fan of them myself. O few firends with relfux kids have reactred badly, and takeing them myself I have not noticed any change- benefit, although I suffer very infrequent dgiestive complain anyway. Also, Kai has so much going on and so many supps and meds to change/tweak, each new thing can only be added one at a time and this is lower on my list right now.
Yes B6 is nealry as important as zinc and the must be taken together to get real benefit. You need to take the inactive - Pyridoxine HCL and active form - Pyridoxal-5-phosphate (P5P). THe main thing is that you ened B6 to prodcue serotonin, dopamine and noradrenlanine. SO if you are low you will be a grouchy and irritable and a crappy light sleeper. Kai is very irritable child and children with this shortage are the ones who have big tantrums and defiance, anger outbursts and sleep like crap. It is very very common with autistic children, as alotof them have pyroluria, and this means you have no B6 or zinc.
You also need B6 to digest carbohydrates, lipids and proteins. it also supports tissues oxygentation, o without out it you will be under oxidative stress and then adrenal fatigue as the adrenals will be constantly turned on. It is also important for your nervous system without it you can be jumpy and frayed.
Zinc is a co-factor and antioxdent for over 200 enzymatic processes, and it decreases intestinal permeabillity, increases immune function and facilitates brain developement, DNA and RNA synthesis and is needed in many digestive processes.
This is why children who have food intolerance, relfux, allergy, irritablility, behavioural disorders and sleep problems all calm down and start sleep properly and heal when put on zinc and b6.
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What sort of apple cider vinegar are you using? Is the one you get in a supermarket not good enough? I found it very cheap, a lot cheaper than epsom salt. We did bath Julia in it once but I didn't notice a major change, just wondering if I'm maybe not using the best quality stuff.
Rebecca, Arthur was doing so well, when did things start to go pearshaped for you? Are you finding he is happy getting only breastmilk? With the saurkraut juice, when is the best time to give it and how much would you start with?
I'm not quite sure what we are going to do. Julia started to get worse when we tried the probiotics and since then she is not even tolerating what she was doing really well on before. Not quite sure how to proceed. The only thing I can think of that the chicken we used at the time was free range from Tesco and the one I tried now was organic from Marks and Spencer but I figured that would be better.
I found the source on the link between beef and MPI. It's from a booked called Motherfood by Hilary Jakobson:
"Foods from the same animal source may trigger similar reactions: for instance if there is a sensitivity to milk protein, look for a possible sensitivity to beef as well. If there is a sensitivity to eggs, look for a possible sensitivity to chicken.." P69
Also, a LLL leaflet on allergies said that about 20% of children who react to milk, will react to beef as well.
So not quite sure where this leaves us...
I may try the tesco chicken again and see what happens. I really don't like the idea of just going back to HAF.
About EE, I don't think Julia has this, she doesn't have reflux at all, I think her symptoms are all lower gut.
The custom probiotics look amazing, Rebecca! So do they not have anything added, just the probiotics? No inulin, maltrodextrin, nothing? What's the binding agent then?
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Rebecca and Bjutka:
For the purpose of getting them onto foods I would keep going with the chosen food for a good few days if you can, for example 5-7 days. If they are getting worse and worse you know it is the food, and it really isn't being tolerated. Whenever I trial foods for Kai I give it a really good shot so I don't have any question mark in my mind. If you choose to do broths for now, give it a good go, as the consequences are back to no food, or even more restricted diet. The other reason I give it along time is that there are so many variables that could be causing the symptoms suhc as sickness, colds, teething or something else, I want to make sure that it is the food.
The only other thing I can think of is to go back to what worked before LO's were reactring. When we get into a pickle with Kai and he is reacting left right and centre, we go back to your baseline of trusted 100% reaction free. This is our safety position. Right now, this is what we are doing since we are reducing his reflux meds down. We don't want any triggers coming from diet at all to set it off. To know where baseline is, I would say it is the diet that allows them to be reaction free for 7 - 14 days.
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Thanks, Eloise. Before the probiotics, Julia was getting a lot better on swede, squash, chicken and chicken stock. I thought this was our baseline. However, after I started the probitics she got so much worse, and continued to get worse even days after I stopped the probiotics. Then I went on HAF only for 5 days and she more or less settled. Put the chicken stock and chicken back and we are back to wind, constipation, very offensive smelling poo and worse skin. Is that not a reaction? But if she can't tolerate chicken, how come she was good on it before the introduction of the probiotics?
What do you think?
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I am not sure :-\ Was she ok on the chicken stock second time round?? If so, I would go back to chicken stock, make it super gelatinous and give that to her for a week or two and see how she goes, then try the chicken again. Be sure to use organic chicken of course.
This is new territory for me, as Kai was ok with all the first 10-20 foods we introduced. I just wonder if she is harbouring a parasitic infection or huge levels of Klebsiella or something like that... has she had a complete digestive stool analysis yet or do they say she is too young?
I think you should post this question on my facebook group too - there are loads of mothers with children with allergy and food intolerance who have struggled to get them onto few foods - many with good knowledge of GAPS and failsafe. I sent you a message via facebook, I hope you can find the group. Collectively, they will be able to answer this question I am sure, someone would have been in this position before and also have knowledge of how probiotics affect the gut and what the possibilities could be for your situation
I do know that some kiddies do not tolerate probiotics at all, those Mummas will be there to give advice. :)
If anyone else wants to join this group then I am happy to provide details.
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Hey Deb, do you do Kombucha?
I have tried making my own kombucha a number of times and every single time have grown mold that wasn't supposed to be there. that's before I became SuperMom, though, so maybe I should give it another go. LOL
Oooh, looky what I found this morning online? http://www.foodrenegade.com/how-to-grow-a-kombucha-scoby/
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with this shortage are the ones who have big tantrums and defiance, anger outbursts and sleep like crap
Ok, so this hit home. Not for Ds2, but Ds1. He was doing much better digestive wise when we first started GAPS but we've recently hit some regression w/ him as well. Moreover, his behaviour was getting better and your quote above sounds EXACTLY like what we've been dealing with the last 1.5 weeks or so. I was thinking it was potentially the newest probiotic we added to the mix (Vital Immune) as its much stronger and I thought it was die off. But what you're saying about the B6 makes a lot of sense too. The anger outbursts we've hit are unreal and very unusual for his behaviour. He's even taken to hurting himself when he gets like this. I would almost charicterize it as bipolar like (which scares me b/c my aunt has bipolar). One minute he's an angel, the next second I wonder where my son went, kwim? Again I thought it was die off, but perhaps there's even more of an imbalance going on then I thought.
The reason this component sticks out to me is there is a strong family history of mental illness + digestive issues (hence one of my reasons for being compelled to GAPS as well) incl. my father who had alcoholism and depression. When I read that B6 is being found to play a crutial role in both of those illnesses, I find it impossible to ignore.
So B6... should I check Iherb again?! LOL... I found some liquid B6 the other day but didn't order it b/c I wasn't sure if there was something specific I should be looking for. I suppose I could start a low dose paired with the zinc to see if it helps any.
Jutka, see Arthurs regression all seemed to happen within the last 2 wks, and I think I went too quickly with implementing bone broth, ezymes, different probiotics ect so I can't totally pinpoint it. Arthur first got a couple pimples on his chin after he first ate that piece of beef, but I thought that was hormonal bc I had AF at the time. Those pimples never went away and seemed to turn into this rash we're dealing with, but again that was the same time i tried the enzymes, a few days later extra bone broth, a few days later added the new probiotic. Also I don't feel the burps he's been having lately are a good sign and those just happened after the Vital Immune. Come to think of it, now that I'm typing it all out it may be linked to the new probiotic, the VItal Immune. It is more potent in the particular strains that are said to help allergies. I wonder if there is a strong die off involved? I did go ahead and introduce a high dose of it rather quickly... hummm :-\
I totally kwim about baseline Eloise. That's why with Arthur I feel like I need to go back to EBF'ing and just the Klaire labs infant probiotics until his rash clears up and he's on more of an even keel.
Jutka, I spoke to the owner of Custom Probiotics and he said there's nothing but probiotics. Many people on the gaps yahoo group talk about them and say they are great. Maybe try calling. His name is Harry. He may change you a small amout for shipping a sample of the infant probiotics since you are outside the US, but it could be worth a shot ??? The infant probiotic is multi strain though. When you call, be sure to tell him your whole situation. He's interested in details so he can recommend the best course of action. Like I said, he works with GAPS patients and is very willing to help. I was very impressed with his knowledge.
Saw that on your FB Deb! Love it!
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Big hugs to you mamas! I'm following along with interest and wanted to ask a few questions. Eloys - do you have to get them tested for B6/zinc levels first or is it safe to just start supplementing?
Also, I've been eating hidden dairy and/or butter since about new years and I haven't noticed any real reaction from Milo. In fact, he's getting better and better - last night he only ate once!! He had a few other very quick resettles in the early half of the night, but the 2nd half was a straight 6 hour stretch! Since I stopped eating eggs (once again) i don't even think he's spit up once. Here's my question. Is it a good idea or a bad idea to try giving him a teaspoon of the homemade yogurt I made yesterday? i figure if I give it directly to him, the reaction will be more obvious if there is one. Or should I keep him off of all milk even if he doesn't show reaction to some dairy in MY diet, just because?
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Jutka, I didn't answer you about the ACV. We use Omega Nutritions Organic Unpasteurized ACV. It actually contains pepsin, active bacterias and enzymes. Funny, when I take a small tsp myself I actually get a bit nauseous... hummm... Must be doing something for me too.. http://www.iherb.com/jarrow-formulas-omega-nutrition-apple-cider-vinegar-with-mother-12-fl-oz-355-ml/161?at=0&l=en We have a bigger bottle but you get the idea.
Another thought - So Arthur wasn't having this reaction to chicken before, right? I mean, I was giving it to him to gum and he was ok. I had also given him chicken stock back in November and he was fine (no rash ect) It's only been since that one time he ate a very small piece of egg a couple weeks ago and broke out in a full body rash. What if the egg triggered a response in his body and now he's not only sensitive to egg, but the chicken now too?! Argh! I feel so dumb for giving him that piece of egg now! :(
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Is it a good idea or a bad idea to try giving him a teaspoon of the homemade yogurt I made yesterday? i figure if I give it directly to him, the reaction will be more obvious if there is one. Or should I keep him off of all milk even if he doesn't show reaction to some dairy in MY diet, just because?
If you're eating dairy and he's doing ok, I think it's worth a shot. NCM suggests yogurt in the baby program, so who knows. Maybe Milo has done some really good healing lately. That's great news sweets! Maybe just try having him lick a tich off your finger for a few days and go from there? I would go suuper slow though.
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yeah i was just thinking more about it (and also just noticed a new tiny patch of eczema on his face :( ) and I think for now I'll just focus on getting more broth and more skj into him for the time being. Like i said, he's doing better and I don't want to regress!!
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Got you on Facebook, Eloise, thanks. But I can't find the GAPS page. Would you mind inviting me or telling me what the exact name is?
No, she wasn't fine with just chicken stock. As soon as I put it back (other than the HAF), she turned a lot worse,which is unbelievable as she was doing so much better before.
Maybe someone on FB will have had a similar situation, I hope.
So scary about the behavioural problems. Really feel for you, Rebecca. I don't know if this is something that Julia is likely to go on having. She has tantrums already and she is only 1. I don't know if it originates from her gut problems or is it just her character? If she doesn't get her way, she would nearly throw herself to the ground and flail with her arms... What is the zink/B6 supplement you're using? How do you decide the dose? Is this not something you would need a blood test for to decide?
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Lots of posts while I was posting. How much skj are you giving, Megan?
I was thinking something similar to you, Rebecca as in what if something in the probiotics annoyed Julia so much that now she doesn't tolerate even what she has been tolerating before?
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Last thought... (for now) I just compared labels on the infant probiotic and the Vital Immune. The biggest difference is Acidophilus. The Vital Immune contains 1 bil CFUs and the Infant Probiotic does not contain any. I wonder if that's where I'm hitting a reaction is with the Acidophilus ??? Going to post on the GAPS FB page about it to see if anyone has insight. Have you ladies heard anything about Acidophilus? I swear I read somewhere a while back that some gaps patients can't tolerate it, but I can't find where I read that.
Jutka, type in "Gut and Psychology Syndrom" fully in the search bar. The group should come up. You'll probably see posts from me. My alias on FB is "Karma Spirit".
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Here's a link https://www.facebook.com/#!/GAPSDiet
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Lots of posts while I was posting. How much skj are you giving, Megan?
I gave 1tsp once and never since. I just made a new batch (which is why I wasn't giving any) so when it's ready I'm going to start with 1tsp a day to begin. Since I haven't been giving it at all, that's why I said I decided to focus on that rather than the yogurt just yet.
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oh, also meant to ask. The yogurt I made is almost milk consistency... that can't be right??? I've got it straining thru cheesecloth right now, but I still think I must have done something wrong. Anyone have experience making yogurt?
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oh, also meant to ask. The yogurt I made is almost milk consistency... that can't be right??? I've got it straining thru cheesecloth right now, but I still think I must have done something wrong. Anyone have experience making yogurt?
Homemade yogurt is super runny.. it's a very different consistency. I don't think anything is wrong. I know Deb has experimented w/ adding gelatin to make it thicker. I'm sure she can help. We just use the runny stuff. DH mixes it in protein shakes or mixes pureed fruit w/ it.
Ok, I'm pretty convinced all of this probiotic stuff + reactions is related to die off now. Remember how I just upped my probiotics yesterday? Well this morning I did it again, as did DH. We both have been paying close attention to our reactions to any foods we're eating today. I ate 2 big bowls of chicken soup w/ sauerkraut already. My lips are very itchy and some little bumps I have always had on my arms are itchy too (they have never been itchy) My fingers also feel slightly "pins and needles". DH said his nose was really itchy today after eating his soup. I guess our probiotic dose wasn't high enough to experience the same reactions the boys were having. I have never had this sort of reaction from eating soup before - ever. I have been trying to go really slow to avoid high detox into my BM, so wasn't taking high dose probiotics. Feeling the way I feel right now completely makes me realize how the boys have probably been feeling. Guess we'll continue on. It must be doing something
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Also Megan, were you sure to keep the yogurt somewhat warm when you were fermenting? That aids the fermentation process. Also, how long did you ferment? I find a full 24 hrs is best.
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Since we're on gut health here, take a read at this: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/15/dr-don-huber-interview-part-2.aspx I swear GMOs play a part in all of this too! >:(
This quote from the article really hit home: "Dr. Huber also recently met with a doctor in Germany who specializes in working with autistic children. Interestingly, there appear to be many correlations between the rats fed genetically modified feed and autistic children.
"[When] you look at the stomachs of the GMO-fed [animals], they have all of the severe allergy responses, the inflammation and the reddening… When they looked at the intestine, they said that the intestinal lining is deteriorating… The smell of the intestinal contents is very rank. The biology has been drastically changed.
This [German] doctor said, "That's exactly what we're seeing with our children with autism.
We need more research, but certainly, the indicators are there. The research up until very recently hasn't been done, and those who wanted to do it have been prohibited from publishing, or from doing that research. We see those that have dared to come out and raised some concerns have been very severely impacted professionally, as well as in their own personal lives, in that persecution that they've had to endure"
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I find it's harder to keep the yogurt warm in winter while it's culturing. I've started using a heating pad under the jars and covering them with towels to keep it between 105 and 120F (but not over 120 F). Otherwise it does come out runny.
Are you heating the milk all the way to 180F? And letting it cool below 120F before adding the culture?
Here's how I do it: http://crunchyprogressiveparenting.blogspot.com/2011/09/homemade-yogurt-its-awesome-and-easy.html
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I find it's harder to keep the yogurt warm in winter while it's culturing. I've started using a heating pad under the jars and covering them with towels to keep it between 105 and 120F (but not over 120 F). Otherwise it does come out runny.
Good point :) I usually preheat the oven to about 300 then turn it off. The oven stays warm"ish" and the yogurt seems to ferment well in there.
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If you think you and Arthur and DS1 are having die-off I'd stick with it. I was having a LOT Of die-off at first when I went off gluten and yeast and upped s boulardi and caprylic acid. But my holistic practitioner had said that if it is die-off you need to go through it and to continue on. Maybe just back off the digestive enzymes and/or foods for now until the die-off settles down?
FPIES is also another thing to consider - it is Food Protein-Induced Enterocolitis Syndrome. It is a gastrointestinal and immune response to particular food proteins. A good friend of mine's second child had this - he is now 6 and doing GREAT. Apparently "most" children outgrow it starting around 3 or so but for a LONG time he was BFd only, then when she wasn't making enough milk she did BF and HAF (Neocate) and slowly learned what foods he could tolerate and go from there.
My DS has been on the Vital Immune for about a week now, maybe a bit over. I suspect some die-off symptoms as well - his mood and energy and eating has been GREAT but he's having MANY small poops a day instead of two medium ones and his sleep is more disturbed. I give him one Vital Immune capsule AM (open it into his homemade fruit drink - I blend lots of fruit and sometimes veggies with a smidge of apple juice and lots of water) and one Culturelle capsule (adult vegan one, not the one for kids) PM.
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just a quick moment to post. I just got a reply email from a gaps practitioner in Ontario. I feel very hopeful now. Will share more info when I have time later tonight. She also has international gaps clients she works with via phone/email. This practitioner is about 2.5hrs away from us so we will be working with her via email and phone as well.
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Great, Rebecca! Hope you get some answers. i also emailed a GAPS practitioner in England and awaiting reply. I rang Tesco today and they said that both their free range and organic chickens are completely GM free so just got one in the slow cooker and will see how Julia does on it tomorrow. This was the chicken we used when first started GAPS and she was doing so well.
Quick question: what sort of response would you expect from skj? I gave 2ml to Julia today and her poo was a bit runnier and she was also more windy. Is this a good sign or a sign to back off? Just wondering...
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Thanks about the yogurt. I wrapped it in a towel and left it by the heater vent but that probably wasn't warm enough. Also, I have a recipe that says 12 hrs so I only did that, though I did go up to 185 and down to 110. I think I'll probably try keeping it warmer and fermenting longer. It turned out ok after I strained it, but there ended up being more whey/milk than yogurt :-\
Crazy about the die-off Rebecca! Glad you found a good practitioner!
Jutka - not sure about the skj, but I'd probably keep at the 2ml for another couple days and see how it goes.
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Megan, my friend always did her yogurt in a cooler as it kept the heat in quite well. :)
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oh good idea, thanks!
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Megan, I've been reading along on the gaps yahoo group and someone posted today about heating raw milk for yogurt, here was the response: "You don't have to heat it. You get a better consistancy from the yogurt if you
heat it and kill off the competing bacteria. Of course it is no longer raw. If you don't heat it, the yogurt is thinner and more "gloppy". Now I don't mind gloppy and I prefer it raw. I don't make it much though. Kefir is easier."
So the GAPS practitioner that emailed me back today said Arthur is for sure in die off. She's currently working with 4 other babies all with similar symptoms to what we are experiencing so I'm looking forward to corresponding with her in conjunction to the other ND we are seeing. I think whatever bad-guys we've got going on in our family really don't like the Acidophilus, so that's probably why we're getting such a pronounced die off from the Vital Immune. Ds1's behaviour was dramatically improved today and I only put a pinch of the vital immune in his BM as opposed to a whole capsule.
Jutka, I posted about our bone broth situation on the gaps yahoo group. This is one response I got from a Mama that I find particularily helpful: "If he is reacting to bone broth then stick with meat broths for now, which are gentler. And perhaps only simmer for an hour or so to minimize amines. Using Super fresh meat (ie the day of or the day after kill) will also minimize amines and may have less of a reaction. My son used to get very red splotches on his face after drinking the meat broth particularly when it contacted his skin. It looked nasty, but i persisted since the week we started the broths his mysterious hives, which he had for 5 months daily, disappeared. he no longer gets this red face. We've been on the broths since August last year but gaps intro/full for 3 months now"
And another response from a Mama about introducing probiotics (might be helpful in your situation as well Jutka)
"I forgot to mention (not sure if someone else mentioned) to go slow with the probiotics. We started on a tiny tiny amount- the tip of a knife. Maybe like 10 specs? And if you go SKJ, a drop a day for 5 days to see if there's a reaction. I thought my son couldn't tolerate them but that's because we gave him too much too soon. We're now up to a 1/5 capsule per day and generally able to increase much quicker now. Hoping to get to a 1/2 capsule in the next week. Also don't forget the detox baths if you're not doing already, Epsom salts, ACV or bicarb. "
Jutka - I would keep up with the 2ml for another few days. If she seems to be ok, up it a little, if not, back off a touch but do not back off completely. She really needs those good probiotics.
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Oh, I forgot to mention this gaps practitioner I found is a WAPF local chapter leader!! How exciting!! I can't wait to pick her brain!!
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Megan: you asked -
Eloys - do you have to get them tested for B6/zinc levels first or is it safe to just start supplementing?
Yes it is best to get a blood test for zinc. it is called a zinc plasma test, and please disregard the ranges that are given, bioned Dr's use a much high range. My zinc is considered normal by my GP, however I biomed Dr says it is very low and needs to be increased, so you can see interpretation with someone well versed in nutritional science is so important. Biomed Dr's don't test for B6 as the blood level is meaningless.
I can find out safe low dosages for you. I know for small children for zinc it is about 1mg/kg +5 mg. For adults 1mg/kg + 10-20 mg. Starting doses of b6 I don't know, I would need to ask, but I can tell you how much Kai is on, and he's 13 kg if you want. I will go find the bottle in a minute and post it.
Rebecca, just to second your thoughts about behaviour and die-off. Kai is on a pure e.coli probiotic at the moment, and he is more cranky than usual. He swings from normal to anger outbursts and yelling "no!!" alot.... and has huge tantrums normally but now he is more so like that. I know the e.coli probiotic gives strong amine reactions also it makes them extra cranky. He has tonnes of bad bacteria and hardly any good bacteria also. So I think he is on constant die-off, with his normal probiotics anyway. I just go with it, I have a vision of a much calmer an less irritable boy in about 6 months :) I need to add that Kai has high copper so as his body start absorbing zinc, his copper automatically will go down, and this is yet another thing he will have to deal with chelating the excess copper - again behavioural reactions. SO this is going to be a rough 6 months, but what can we do,... it has to be done for his gut health!
The other thing I wanted to say was that if you have a family history of drug and alcohol issues, then you are spot on B6 is crucial. The other genetic factor from a biochemical side is the methylation cycle. It can be tested via a whole blood histamine blood test. If you have high histamine, your methylation cycle is not working correctly and you are undermethylating. I will try topost a pic of the diagram so you get an idea of what it is. It involves alotfo detoxifcation process in the brain and has implicatrions for dementia, addiction, and other degenerative brain diseases. Over 50% of alcoholics are found to be undermethylators and similar for other addictions. Some of the worlds greatest arists and thinkings were also undermethylators, they tend to be very intense people who worry alot. I have now gotten our whole immediate family tested for zinc, copper, and whole blood histamine and of course pyrolles. Interestingly, my 4 year old and a severe undermethylator and he has no diet restrictions but he worries very deeply and finds it very hard to cope with his emotions. He is not a pyrolle though - phew! And he has no anger outburts in sight, unlike his brother who is a pyrolle, and we know that menas he has no b6 or zinc!!! Hubby has a family history of drugas and alcohol and he has both low zinc and is undermethylating quite severely. THe treatment for undermethylating is zinc and methionine. Methionine gets the cycle going again.
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The methylation cycle:
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Don't forget EPSOM salts baths (Magnesium sulphate or magnesium chloride). Very important to support the body when reaction to foods, in die off or dealing with any toxicity :)
We put them in Kais bath every night , 1/2 cup. It supports the body to detox, the mag is absorbed through the skin.
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I'm thinking 2ml skj juice is way too much for Julia! She was up from 3am to 6am last night with terrible wind and diarhoea. I can't work out if this is all a die off or she just can't tolerate probiotics full stop... Maybe I'm just going too fast as someone suggested to you, Rebecca? Would you mind sending me the details of the GAPS practitioner you found? I'm thinking of getting in touch. It would be so good to get some reassurance. I tried chicken stock and chicken today and had diarrhoea again tonight. Again, is this a die off or a sign that she is not tolerating this???
Eloise, what you wrote about methylation cycle really hit home. I'm sitting worrying about it at the mo. I have been losing my mum to dementia over the last few months while having the worst time of my life with Julia's sickness, having to give up breastfeeding etc. In my sleep deprived state, I'm not sure I got you right. Is it a whole blood histamine test you need to test this? And is this linked with zink? What's pyrolles? You need to take zink and methionine supplement to get this fixed? Could you take it as young as Julia? Or is this more for us, adults?
Wedo epsom salt bath but only use 50ml of it in a half a tub of water. Is that enough or should I up it?
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Jutka: That would probably be enough epsom salts for a wee bub! I do thikn it is die-off too, but you are right, to get advice and reassurance, as this her syptoms are pretty severe, it is so good to get someone you cna trust to reassure you.
A whole blood histamine test tests for undermethylation - yes. The blood histamine level needs to be between 0.45 and 0.5. Mine is 0.8, my sons and hubbys 1.2 which is very high. YOu need someone who is well versed in it to intpererate, like a biomed Dr. Usually Methionine is not given to children until some headway is made with their zinc status, we are still waiting for Kai's next blood test to confirm how his zinc is going, then we will add methioine to his supps if the zinc is coming down. The Dr's don't like to do too many things at once. Usually zinc is the most urgent thing to address first, as it is so important for digestion and everything else. You can give zinc to Julia directly, but you will take to get advice on dosage. I started Kai on zinc and activated B6 when he was 10 months, via a droplet form, you would need help to get a product she can tolerate.
Pyrolles is Pyroluria. Essentially it is a blood disorder that inhibits zinc and b6 absorption and many autistic children and food intolerant kids with ADHD, behavioural disorders have it. Amost all have some kind of gut damage because their zinc is so low. These kids need to be on zinc and B6 for life, and Kai is one if them. Here is some more info about Pyroluria:
http://hellcat.hubpages.com/hub/Pyroluria-Do-you-have-it
This is written by a naturopath is Australia that specialises in mental illness and Pyroluria.
http://www.tvernonlac.com/copper-toxicity.html
THis is about Copper and zinc and the relationship between the two, it is strongly related to Pyroluria, most have high copper because their zinc is so low.
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I'm thinking 2ml skj juice is way too much for Julia! She was up from 3am to 6am last night with terrible wind and diarhoea. I can't work out if this is all a die off or she just can't tolerate probiotics full stop... Maybe I'm just going too fast as someone suggested to you, Rebecca? Would you mind sending me the details of the GAPS practitioner you found? I'm thinking of getting in touch. It would be so good to get some reassurance. I tried chicken stock and chicken today and had diarrhoea again tonight. Again, is this a die off or a sign that she is not tolerating this???
From the Mamas I have been talking to in the gaps yahoo group, some babies can only tolerate 1 little drop of SKJ at first... I posted the one response I got on the previous page that I received. Other babies can only tolerate a few little granules of probiotic powder at first. Since Julia's stool test came back with such high levels of pathogens, I'm not surprised she's having such a strong reaction. Honestly hun, I *thought* the reactions we were getting from Arthur were "bad", but it's die off for certain. Having experienced it myself after I upped my probiotics intake, now I know for certain what he's going through. We're pursuing with meat stock. I did a Lamb roast in the crock pot today and gave him the drippings. He loved it and drank almost 1/2 cup. His rash flared a touch, but calmed after his detox bath. I've also backed off of his Vital Immune. We're back to just using the KL Infant Probiotic and just one little pinch of Vital Immune. One mom told me it took 5 months before the worst of their die off subsided... but she sllooooowwwwlllyyy continued with increasing SKJ, probiotics and bone broth and now they are working through intro successfully.
I will PM you the details of the gaps practitioner I'm in contact with. She's a lovely lady. Hopefully she can help you or at least provide you with some reassurance.. I know she said she's currently working with a Mama in Germany as well with a GAPS baby, so she does work with international clients.
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What is SKJ?
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SKJ = Sauerkraut Juice. When homemade, it's very rich in natural occuring probiotics. My Ds1 couldn't tolerate it at first either. We had to go super slow with him, and now he's fine with it. He can also eat the chunks of sauerkraut now.. before he would get really bad eczema and bumps on his upper chest. Ds1 has completely calmed down now. It really must have been the Vital immune causing wicked die off. I'm only giving him one pinch now. I will do that for the week and try a tich more next week. I can't believe how strong a reaction those probiotics are giving my guys!
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Can we pool a collective list of die-off symptoms to watch out for in kids?
For my Ds2: anger outbursts, cranky and lots of night waking, finding it hard to get back to sleep.
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Good Idea :)
Ds1 - anger outbursts, disrupted sleep (naps and nighttime) - needs extra cuddles and support, rash like bumps/pimples on upper chest, cheeks and temples.
Ds2 - face rash, small bumps on chest/legs (almost like hives). I honestly can't say his temperament or sleep have really been effected yet by die off (thankfully).
Myself - itchy lips, small bumps on arms that were itchy, fingers went "pins and needles". I have lowerd my probiotic though again, b/c I don't want to detox into my milk.
I really liked this article about die off. The section about "Healing Reactions are not Allergic Reactions" really helped me. http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/help1.php
ETA - Just thinking, I should add Poop symptoms to die off - Ds1 extra runny diarrhea *yuck*
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DS: disrupted sleep, red cheeks, very frequent smaller BMs
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Julia: diarrhoea, wind, worse eczema, worse sleep, little red rash on face
I phoned Harry from Custom Probiotics and he sending me a free sample of the Infant Probiotics. Very nice guy. I told him what happened with KL probitic and he said that that tells him that Julia's gut is in a very bad shape. I gave her too much too quickly and basically started a war btw the good and bad bacteria...
We are going on with chicken stock and chicken and I'm getting consistent diarhoea. What's most annoying is that is happens overnight in the wee hours of the morning! Last night is was 1am... :( But I'm gonna push through as well as I'm certain from what everyone is saying that it's a die off.
Not sure about skj for now since I'm getting such a reaction anyway??
How do you go about the fats? Could I just add a little coldpressed olive oil to her stock? Would she not react even more? Got the fclo today but gonna hold off for a while.
Rebecca, the mum you were talking about that had5 months of die off - did she just keep the bub on meat stock and meat for 5 montsh then? Would that be enough nutrition wise?
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We've had a great morning so far! :) Last night before bed I put a small amount of Calendula ointment on Arthurs face. This morning his rash was nearly gone. For breakfast he ate about 1/8 cup of Meat Jelly (served cold, made from the Lamb roast last night), had a tich of coconut oil and a small drop of SKJ. the result - NO RASH!! This is such a bizzar process! I guess they are just so sensitive. It makes sense to me that the die off can result in "allergy" like responses. I guess when the body is in high healing mode it detects everthing as something potentially "bad"... even the healing foods. I guess slow and steady does win the race.
Jutka, I was looking at my medicine dropper this morning, 2 ml seems like a lot of SKJ right now. As it is, Arthur only has about 0.5 ml, if that. Maybe just try dipping your finger in the SKJ and have her lick it off. Do that once/day for 5 days, then maybe try increasing it to 2x/day and so forth.
I got some great advice for different BLW gaps food options. One mama suggested cooking down the soup stock until you had more of a gelatin. Let the gelatin cool in the fridge and then cut it into cubes for baby to suck/gum on. I loved that idea.
It was also reiterated to me how important FATS are at this stage - even moreso then proteins. Get as much meat fat into these kiddos as possible. That's what really helps to seal the intestinal wall as it's healing.
The meat jelly was a huge hit for us. I just put the drippings from the lamp roast in the fridge overnight and it turned into a jelly. Arthur could actually spoon feed himself. He was very proud and seemed to like the process :)
Posting as you posted Jutka. I'm so glad you got in touch with Harry. He was really great when I talked to him aswell. He said I did the same thing w/ the Vital Immune... the war between the good/bad bacterias just got really intense and it was hard for Arthurs body to cope.
The Mom I spoke to with the 5 mths die off did just meat stock/broth/meat fats and breastmilk. She was bf'ing still doing full gaps herself, so I'm not sure what to suggest RE: FF... :-\ NCM does believe that the meat stock is enough. Perhaps if you could start to get a little fresh juice in her as well? I would think with meat stock/meat fats and fresh juice you would be getting enough nutrition wise. ???
ETA - And for fats, I still say focus on animal fats as opposed to fats from veggies/fruits (avocados, olive oils ect) The animal fats are a different kind of fat - mainly saturated (BM is also majority Saturated fats too btw!) Avocados and Olive Oils ect are moreso Polyunsaturated, which is quite different. I would suggest re-reading the chapter on fats in the gaps book, it starts on pg 255. She breaks down the fat composition of different type of foods on pg 259. That should help with more info, but again, animal fats are crutial right now. That's all I'm mainly going to focus on.
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NCM does believe that the meat stock is enough.
For a little while sure, but 5 months though? for a growing, developing baby?? That seems pretty stretched to me... I personally wouldn't do it without BM or at least juices or something for vitamins and minerals, as well as calories. JMHO.
Good idea on the gelatin, I'm going to try that as we get some every day with our lunch.
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For a little while sure, but 5 months though? for a growing, developing baby?? That seems pretty stretched to me... I personally wouldn't do it without BM or at least juices or something for vitamins and minerals, as well as calories. JMHO
I agree, that's why I mention the juicing too :)
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I don't think I could do without formula completely. I will have to go slow and reduce it gradually as she is able to tolerate more foods. It gives me peace of mind that it is nutritionally complete. I know it's highly processed but I think it's as good as I'm gonna get at the mo. Wish I was still breastfeeding! Wish I found this book earlier. Honestly, giving up breastfeeding was the hardest thing I ever had to do. Absolutely broke my heart, I was consumed by that pain for months!
Just some questions about fats. Would you trust commercially available fats like beef dripping, goose fat? If it says nothing added, nothing taken away... What do you think? Could I just give her a tspf of olive oil on its own? Or would you have to mix it in with the broth? To have enough fat from a chicken, I would need to be roasting one every other day...
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Jutka - I'd think you *could* give the olive oil plain, but it might be a little rich so I'd probably try to mix it with something. I also probably wouldn't trust commercially available meat products b/c even if it is what they say - nothing added - they're tricky with that. They add stuff to the feed and/or inject antibiotics or other stuff before slaughter and then they don't have to list it on the label. Maybe if it were organic it would be ok, or could you find a local butcher and buy scraps from him to render fat from? And about the FF - have you tried the liver based formula from that link that Rebecca posted? I haven't yet, but I'm going to try it on Saturday b/c I'm going to be gone all day and won't be able to nurse him.
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I also probably wouldn't trust commercially available meat products b/c even if it is what they say - nothing added - they're tricky with that. They add stuff to the feed and/or inject antibiotics or other stuff before slaughter and then they don't have to list it on the label. Maybe if it were organic it would be ok, or could you find a local butcher and buy scraps from him to render fat from? And about the FF - have you tried the liver based formula from that link that Rebecca posted? I haven't yet, but I'm going to try it on Saturday b/c I'm going to be gone all day and won't be able to nurse him.
Agreed. I wouldn't trust any of the commercial stuff, especially with such a delicate situation such as this. I got a whole mason jar full of meat jelly from the lamb roast we did last night. Im sure it will last us at least a week or more for Arthur. It's very easy to do yourself. Just pop a roast (grass fed beef, new zealand lamb ect) in the crock pot. Cook until well done. All of the juices and good fats will drip into the bottom of the crock pot. Just pour those into a mason jar and you've got your meat broth/meat jelly.
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Also, there still is the reinducing lactation using domperidone. Even if Julia didn't take to nursing again, you could still pump for her. Even if you couldn't exclusively provide BM for her, every ounce she gets is beneficial.
Jenn... I was thinking about you this morning. I think you need to up Emily's probiotics a bit more, or try and introduce a very small amount of SKJ to get some die off going. The amount of probiotic needed to induce die off is very different from person to person so no one can say "take X amount and you'll start healing", kwim? I could consider a small amout of SKJ to see if that gets things going... just a thought. Some mamas I've talked to said it took up to 40 - 50 bil CFU's to start to see die off...
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Is it possible to ever take TOO many probiotics? :-\ We haven't seen die off in ANY way in any of us :-\ So I could up the dose. I haven't made any SK yet. I think my Mom made some so maybe I will go borrow some from her. Good news is Emily started pooping a bit more frequently!!
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OOHH!! That is great news Jenn! Something must be clicking. It's my understanding that it's impossible to really "OD" on probiotics, but if you up them too quickly and produce too much die off, thats when you start run into issues b/c the body can't detox fast enough, kwim?
Honestly, I really didnt know what die off felt like until the other day when I upped my probiotics to 100 bil CFUs (and that's not including the other probiotics I was getting from sauerkraut, fermented turnips, fermented carrots ect) After I went through that, I now understand what it is.. and what my boys have been going through. Obviously you don't want too much die off, but you do want to get to that therapeutic level for healing I would think.
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Some good advice from the GAPS yahoo group:
" We were doing FAILSAFE 8-10 months before coming across GAPS, and it was good to have some background knowledge of what he was sensitive to before starting GAPS. He now seems to tolerate most vegies no trouble, but still has hives to most fruit (except stewed pear).
My LO had a whole body rash/rough skin after taking the digestive enzymes at night time, which apparently assists with detox but it was just too much for him. Perhaps your DS2 is going through the same detox type reaction? I would think that anything 'more' of the healing/detox foods at the moment would make him more sensitive as his pathways are probably overloaded. I know this slowly slowly requires a LOT of patience! However, it does seem that we could increase things a fair bit quicker after the initial period of die off/detox. Hopefully it is the same for you too. You may want to reduce the SKJ/probiotics a little to just let him get rid of that rash before increasing again.
Other things I can think of right now:
If you are making up batches of stock/meat to freeze, amines build up quickly so apparently use your frozen batches within 3-4 weeks of freezing, and refrigerate/freeze as soon as possible (obviously wait to cool in fridge prior to freezing partic if using glass jars!)...
Have you tried your DS2 using a straw to minimise broth/food contact with his face?
Detox baths
Juicing ? My LO has the face rash to carrot juice so we just try kale and beetroot. (Although he hates it, I haven't juiced recently for him as he just won't drink it). The beetroot is apparently very cleansing.
My LO is on some herbs from our naturopath to help support his liver and help his detox pathways.
I try new foods on a half full or mostly full stomach. Seems to react less when we do this (i.e. for us thiss was ghee, sardines)"
I appreciated getting this message bc what she's going through with her lo seems almost exactly what we experienced with Arthur. She's the one who had to do bone/meat broths for 5 months. Her Ds is now 18 months and they were able to start intro 3 months ago after the months of just bf'ing + broths/stock/meat jelly. She is still Bf'ing and doing intro slowly.
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That's some helpful info!
Thanks for the info about the probiotics also. I will up her dose again and go steal some SKJ from my Mom.
Ok I need to have a little rant about Emily's immunizations this morning. We have immunized both our kids as DH and I both have mixed feelings on not :-\ So anyways now that Emily is 6 months old, she can have a flu shot which I'm not comfy with for any of us. So I decline and just say no thanks. She says Emily was a preemie and is far more likely to get sick. Yes I know, no thank you. She asks if I even know what the flu is. Yes I know, I'm not interested in the vaccine, thank you. Looks down her nose at me and says well if you're comfortable with risking her life... Wth? Anyways so she had me fill out a ages and stages development thing but for a 6 month old so Emily failed it. So she is trying to refer me to all these specialists to help with "Emily's disabilities". Again I declined because she is developing fine but 6 weeks behind her actual age and TBH, she is FAR ahead of where Ethan was at her real age and he's fine. Again a whole speech about how catching it early and blah blah blah. So then a different nurse pops her head in to bring in the vaccine and the lady says oh we don't need the flu one because this girl turned it down EVEN though she has a preemie. Cue evil look from other nurse and me now feeling like I'm abusing my child for two different things. They do the 6 month vaccination and then she starts asking me questions about Emily and asks if I have started her on solids. So I said not really although I have tried to give her a little bit of chicken broth. The nurse gives me a funny look and says chicken broth has absolutely no nutritional value and is just full of sodium. I say it's homemade and I'm fine with it. Then she says well she needs to get onto some rice cereal because as soon as they turn 6 months they need more then just breast milk. Then she asks about her sleeping habits and I tell her she wakes up a lot but whatever and then the nurse says that I should start her on formula because formula fed babies sleep through the night. Ok seriously. What the heck? After that I stopped giving honest answers and just worked on getting us out of there.
Anyways a bit off topic there :P
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O.M.G Jenn!... Only a quick moment to post, but that's unreal!! >:( It just goes to show people "don't know what they don't know"... Ignorance makes me so upset. You're doing an amazing thing for Emily and I think you're doing everything just right. Stick with your gut... conventional medicine is very disillutioned sometimes (well, more often then not I'm finding, but thats JMHO)
Do you have access to a good ND? Have you checked out GAPS practitioners in Alberta? I think I saw some on the GAPS.me website.
Honestly, situations like that are what stopped me from going to our reg. Dr's. The last time Ds2 was at the Drs was at his 2 mth appt and I disagreed with everything our Dr. was saying. She said he had to go on zantac, HAF and a laxitive... NO THANK YOU!! I will do an ED, continue to BF and heal my son naturally thankyouverymuch :P
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Jenn~ Wow. That's pretty much all I have to say about your appt. Glad you were able to hang in there and stood your ground. I let myself be bullied into getting a flu shot last year while pg (and still got the flu, and while it wasn't fun for a couple days there, I was fine.) And as far as the food goes--my dr, who is very mainstream and not particularly excited about some of the stuff i'm doing with H, agreed that homemade chicken broth, and the chicken, was WAY better food than rice cereal.
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Oh Jenn, I'm sorry. :(
We've been blessed with some fairly open minded peds so far, can't imagine. And Kim, when I told my doc we were sticking with chicken and veggies for food, she told me not to bother with rice cereal so maybe some of them have a clue!
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Ugh Jenn, I'm sorry too. And WTG for standing your ground!
Sorry to post and dash but have to go pick up DD from Hebrew school. But wondering - I woke up this morning with a red itchy rash on my chin and just now broke out with a strange rash on my arms (pictures attached). Any ideas? I know I didn't have gluten today - maybe slight contamination from last night (I took roast beef and organic cheese off a sandwich and had it on gluten free rice cakes instead)?
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I woke up this morning with a red itchy rash on my chin and just now broke out with a strange rash on my arms (pictures attached). Any ideas
Seriously, this kinda looks like the rash I had on my arms the other day when I upped my probiotics. Did you up yours by chance? Are you also working through some more die off perhaps ???
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I haven't changed or upped probiotics in about two weeks. I have been eating less carbs recently though. ITCHY!
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I have been eating less carbs recently though
That would do it! The bad guys feed off of carbs right? Maybe you're starving them out?
I felt terrible that one day...sooo itchy! My lips and arms... it was like my skin was crawling! Makes me really appreciate how hard this can be on these kiddos!
How's your DD btw Karen?
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Ok, so after a wonderful day with my boys I want to add to my list of die off symptoms. At first, I wasn't sure if it was coincidence that Ds1's behaviour went out the window, but now I'm certain it was all die off related since he was such a gem today.
When he's in intense die off, not only does Ds1 have the anger outbursts, but he's very defiant. He will purposely do the opposite of what is asked of him. He throws things and will also purposely go out of his way to try and hurt himself - mostly banging his head against the wall. At first I thought his poor behaviour was a result of a playdate we had with a very bratty boy from the neighbouring town. (not a lot of kids around here so it's hard to be selective when it comes to playdates :P) I thought perhaps he had picked up the negative behaviours from that playdate, but again, looking back the day following the playdate was also when we started the high dose of Vital Immune. We're only doing a pinch of the VI now in conjunction with the full dose of KL infant and he's back to his wonderful self! What a relief!!
The rest of the day with Ds2 went really well too. I managed to get about 1/2 cup of meat stock in him which he really enjoyed. Almost no rash all day. A bit of flare up, but by the end of a nice long bath today it was virtually all gone (incl his face!) YAY!
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Glad to hear about the better day!
I guess it could be die-off but I'm just surprised that it's so severe then today with the chin and arm rashes. It's been a couple of weeks of less carbs, one week even more strongly so (though far from no carbs). Otherwise I feel fine, especially considering I was up with DS a lot last night.
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Hummm.... if it's not die off, I'm not sure! I hope it feels better soon. Do you have any calendula ointment? I find it's very soothing.
So I asked about dosing FCLO and here's the response I got: " We do FCLO (cinnamon flavoured) and proEFA omega oil. We started slowly, and have built up to 10 drops. He initially got hives when I added the proEFA (he is allergic to some fish) but again I persisted and we go slowly. If I give him those fish oils as well as sardines it sometimes tips him over into a breakout, so I usually separate them for different meals of the day. He loves the FCLO!!!! I was so surprised as I struggled initially to keep it down. It's fine now and I just chase it with a piece of pineapple."
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Aah yes in the food intolerance circles we call that " oppositional defiance." Most commonly associated with amine reactions - amines are packed full in the bone broths. I am so glad Kai can tolerate amines. Interestingly they describe die- off reactions from probiotics as amine reactions. I think the effect in the body is quite similiar essentially both are causing some level of toxicity. Another reason the be on b6 and zinc - to assist the liver to mop up the toxicity.
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hmm... maybe I should try giving Milo a drop of the FCLO so that maybe he'll like it and then he can take it and I don't have to!!! ;D
I've doubled our probiotics dose (meaning we are now doing 1/8 tsp for Milo and 1/4 for Ellen). She has a rash around her mouth (but I've seen it before even before we ever started doing probiotics) and Milo has been more like his old self for the past couple days... throwing fits at the drop of a hat and his sleep has gone back to his old norm last night and today :-\ Oh and he's started banging his head on the floor too. I'm not sure if it's die off though... it's a toss up between that, the dairy I've been eating, and teething as he is getting a new one on top. I just don't understand how you ladies can know exactly what is causing what symptom. I never feel like I know what's going on. :-[
posted at the same time Eloys. hmmm. that makes me wonder - i not only upped his probiotics starting yesterday, but I gave him a lot more bone broth yesterday and not so much today. Maybe that's why it seemed like it was starting to taper off this evening?? hmmm...
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Aah yes in the food intolerance circles we call that " oppositional defiance." Most commonly associated with amine reactions - amines are packed full in the bone broths. I am so glad Kai can tolerate amines. Interestingly they describe die- off reactions from probiotics as amine reactions. I think the effect in the body is quite similiar essentially both are causing some level of toxicity. Another reason the be on b6 and zinc - to assist the liver to mop up the toxicity.
Yes, having a little knowledge about FAILSAFE (though I'm definitely not as well versed as you are, Eloise), it's interesting to see the connections through GAPS as well. Lots of cross-over to be certain. I guess ultimately you're working towards the same goal though, just different approaches.
Funny you mention the liver detox, Ds1 had some dadelion tea with me tonight. He did like it with a bit of honey in it. Without the honey, it really isn't the most pleasant tasting tea.
Is it just me, or does anyone else hate picking the bones out of soup stock? :P LOL, I have to say, it's probably my least favourite job.
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Megan, maybe try backing off just a tich on Milos probiotics again. It still could be too much. If you're worried about amines, read the post I put on the PP from the girl I'm corresponding w/ on the gaps yahoo group. She suggests cooling and freezing the bone broth portions straight away and using within 3-4 weeks.
My boys could be amines sensitive, but I'm going to try and push through slowly. Hopefully as the gut heals, the sensitivities will heal as well, right? That's what I'm going with anyways :)
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Aah yes in the food intolerance circles we call that " oppositional defiance." Most commonly associated with amine reactions - amines are packed full in the bone broths.
See, I was just thinking about this again though... we haven't decreased Ds1's bone broth consumption, we've actually increased it the last couple days (incl today)... The only thing we've decreased is the Vital Immune probiotic. So for him, I'm pretty certain it was die off related to the high probiotic, not amines.
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REALLY hope it's just die-off. Cause otherwise I'm at a loss. If it's die-off and I don't change anything I'm doing how long do you think it will last for?
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If it's die-off and I don't change anything I'm doing how long do you think it will last for?
Geez, no clue I'm afraid. :-\ I have read it really varies from person to person as to how long die off lasts for... but what I have heard is that once the worst is over, the following episodes of die off are much less intense. If you want it to subside quicker, I would up detox baths (preferably every night if possible) and perhaps consider something like dandelion root tea which can aid the detox process. Fresh juicing also helps detox as well and of course upping your water consumption. As Eloise mentioned, extra zinc and b6 could help speed things along too.
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Yes, I do freeze it right away - i'm pretty picky about the taste and won't use it if it's been in the fridge more than a day or two. And lately I've been able to get chickens from a local farmer and i'm pretty sure they're frozen upon slaughter. I do see some places I could tighten up the timing a bit, but not much :-\ I think I'm going to continue for a couple more days with the probiotics though... it seemed to be tapering off a bit this afternoon and i still feel like it could be other factors, so I need to hold at least one thing steady and that's an easy one (whereas teething isn't, kwim?) I also need to stop eating dairy again I think. It's even harder now b/c I've tasted it again and b/c I'm not really convinced he's reacting to it... i've been eating it since New Years and he's been the best he's ever been since then up until yesterday. I know, I know, it takes time to build up and all that :(
Jenn - i hope it clears up soon!!
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Thanks Deb :)
Heres another good article about die off http://www.wholeapproach.com/newsletter/archives/2003/06_June.html
Apparently increased food sensitivity is also a sign of die off as the body is on high alert while fighting the bad guys. This I will have to agree with for sure.
Megan, I think it's a good idea to eliminate other factors for sure. I wasn't sure that Arthur's chin rash was teething or not when it first started. After the teeth cut and the rash was still there I knew it was something more. Again, for us it was too fast a jump into the newest probiotics.. but at least I know they are really working towards the healing process now. Wow, good for you for being so anal with your stock! ;) LOL, I'll admit, I do not freeze mine. Mind you, it doesn't last that long in the fridge - maybe 4 days tops... but, as I said, I don't feel like amines are our real issue.
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Forgot to say - DD is doing well, thanks for asking. Starting to wonder if it's just a rash related to the cold and dry hands - she does wash hands probably too much at school and all with a lot of soap. Sigh.
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Karen, we get that every winter, I generally just coat their hands in Aquaphor before bed (though I'm sure coconut oil would work fine too ;) ) and then cost them again before I go to bed.
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Karen, we get that every winter, I generally just coat their hands in Aquaphor before bed (though I'm sure coconut oil would work fine too ;) ) and then cost them again before I go to bed.
My kids haven't been willing to try the coconut oil, but yes to the aquafor--we used to have to sneak in after they were asleep because they can't stand the feeling of greasy or oily hands, but now we do it before bed and then put socks over their hands and they wake up nice and soft again!
Rebecca--I actually get kind of irritated skin deboning the chicken--not sure why, and its not a new thing, so nothing to do with die off, but all the chicken fat on my hand makes my skin kind of itchy, so not my favorite activity either.
And as far as how long the rashes can last--when I first started GAPS, I broke out in a small red rash around my mouth in a couple spots. They were probably there for about a month, maybe 6 weeks and then I noticed it had mostly cleared up. Now, 5 months later, I can still tell where the rash was, but i think its only becaue I know where it was--its pretty much gone. I know it can vary from person to person, though. Mine wasn't anything extreme, just took awhile to clear up.
So, are undigested food bits always a bad sign? I've noticed that even some foods that Henry does well with pureed, if I give him the whole food, there are undigested bits in his poop. I know my other kids always had that, too, and I understand that means he isn't really digesting all of it so not getting full benefits from eating that food, but is that a sign of something worse? Can I keep going? He's not showing any other symptoms of anything. . .
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My arms (especially the left one) is still so itchy and rashy today and my chin still red and itchy and a bit puffy. Sigh.
Kim, my kids always did that - think it's just an immature digestive system AND that they might not be chewing it properly (so it comes out whole). I wouldn't be concerned as long as there are no other signs.
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Well, recieved the OAT test results in the mail today. Kinda wish I hadn't b/c half of this stuff I have no idea how to interpret and I'm now googling up a storm.. wish I could have just seen these w/ my ND to ask all the questions I wanted.
Long and the short of it, Arthur's Candida/Fungus is through the roof :( His Arabinose count (I guess that's a yeast Matabolite) *should* be under 50... his results are +243 !!! :o :o :(
The other thing is that he's got super super low levels of any bacterial metabolites (including the benficial bacterias), so I don't think that's a good thing either.
I mean, I guess I'm not surprised, but it sucks to see it on paper without having my ND beside me here going through it all :-\
I called their office (which is closed on Wednesdays of course ::) ) Hopefully I can get in within the next week or so to see them.
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Hey Eloise.. So I googled Arabinose and Yeast.. this link came up http://www.newtreatments.org/doc/WisdomExperience/45 Take a read, I think you'll find it particularily interesting, since it is directly related to B6 . In short here's what happens : Summarizing:
* Yeast produce arabinose
* Arabinose is absorbed
* Arabinose binds to proteins
* B6, Biotin and lipoic acid functions are blocked
* B6, Biotin and lipoic acid deficiency
Hummmm.... does this sound familiar to you, Eloise?
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((((((hugs)))))) That's frustrating! I hope they can further explain when you see them.
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Hugs from me too! Let us know what your ND says.
Maybe have to pick up some Aquaphor tomorrow. I'm currently using Rescue Remedy cream on her hands and it helps some but not enough and it's PRICEY!
As for my rash, still there. Holistic doc wasn't much help - said she wasn't sure what it was from. Sigh. Will pick up some epsom salt tomorrow for detox baths. Wish I had a big soaking tub instead of using DD's smallish one!
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Thanks for the support ladies :) I know I shouldn't worry myself with "Dr Google", but at the same time I'm just too type "A" not to start researching what I can. I found a ND website that breaksdown the components of the OAT. Ultimately I know he's showing high Candida/Fungi levels, so at least that gives us some clarity. I was hopeful there would be at least *some* levels of good stuff going on, but it doesn't look like it :-\ I guess the probiotic we're using is aiding and then passing through, but the Candida is probably so strong still the Probiotic is not getting a chance to colonize. I guess that's another reason die off is so crutial, eh?
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According to my holistic practitioner, S. Boulardi is the best probiotic in particular for fighting yeast and colonizing...
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Humm.. neither of his probiotics has that... does the Culturelle you use have it? Sorry, I can't remember.
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Nope - I take S. Boulardi on its own. Floraster is one brand, Klaire Labs has one too.
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Nice, thanks Karen... off to shop. It's a good yeast and not a bacteria, right? I think I remember reading about it a bit in the GAPS book...
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ohhh just read about it on the KL website.. sounds good... and its supposed to also help with allergic responses/ IgA cells - if anyone else is interested in an overview - http://www.klaire.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=V776-06
Thanks Karen :-*
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i just read through the link you sent... it sounds like something i might want to try, but Milo's IgA markers are already really high and this says it *increases* IgA... I'll have to do more research about it, but it might be something for you to look into too if Arthur's IgA markers are also high.
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I have high IgA with regard to gluten but I don't think otherwise. Hmmmm. In any case, I'm currently taking 5 billion organisms of it twice a day.
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Rebecca, just going back Arabinose. I haven't heard about this, sorry. I could easily ask on the other forums though. If it does block b6 production, just add it to the list of many things that block b6 production, it's no biggie. I am guessing that all of us and our kids are extremly low in b6, B6 cannot be produced properly due to stress, I am guess all you Mummies like me are under stress - so there you have a major factor. If kids have low levels of good bacteria and gut issues they will be very likely to have low B6 because they are having to detoxify around the clock. The bad bacteria are putrefying all the time and releasing noxious gases etc etc so anyone with gut trouble is going to need extra b6 just for detoxification purposes. Now if you also have Pyroluria whihc Kai has you will have low b6 for LIFE and need to take B6 for LIFE. I have no idea on doasges though, someone trained in nutrition science - like my biomedical GP can advise.
I have yeast issues and I take nystatin and a herb called Candex for it one month on one month off. Candex kills it in the gut walls, Nystatin kills it in the gut. I am also on a diet that does not allow it to proliferate. With your LO being on the GAPS diet, he is on the perfect place to starve the Yeasts on slowly and surely as they won't have sugar and carbs to feed on... and the probiotics are taking up space left by the yeast. I also take wormwood and Olive Leaf extract, both starve out yeasts and bad bacteria, a good naturopath can point you to some herbs. All these things work slowy and surely. I know oregano oil is excellent for starving out yeast too. There are sooo many ways to skin a cat... so many options!!!!!
left by the yeasts. Your son is so lucky to have you!!!!!
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Deb, KL sells through Amazon. You don't need a special account or anything. Just ad to cart and voila :) Heres the S Boulardii http://www.amazon.com/Klaire-Labs-Saccharomyces-Boulardii-Vcaps/dp/B001PYZBPY/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326979611&sr=8-1-spell Cheapest is $23.40. I buy from Vitamin Partners thru Amazon, they are good.
Interesting Eloise, thank you for the information. :) BTW, I was rereading a section about Candida specifically in the GAPS book and came across NCM talking a little about Pyrroles.. Its only a paragraph or 2, (pg 43/44 if you have the GAPS book) She, of course, links it back to gut dysbiosis/Candida, but definitely doesn't go into much depth.
I appreciate your thoughts RE Candida. I suspect I must have an overgrowth as well if Arthur has it. I have read about Nystatin (again NCM mentions it in the GAPS book), but I think I would rather like to try starving the Candida out with diet/ killing it with botanicals before going to a prescription drug. I understand the prescription just suppresses the Candida and doesn't kill it, am I wrong? Like I said, I haven't really looked into that route.
Megan, RE IgA, it's my understanding that the high IgA markers means he's more prone to developing intolerances, food sensitivies, allergies (due to leaky gut allowing food proteins to pass to the blood stream) but we actually need IgA cells to build up the intestinal wall to protect us from these allergies ect. Again, I could be wrong, but that's what I thought. I know our ND said we needed to find a probiotic that would help with IgA cells (which VItal Immune also does and why he recommended it) I have a busy morning today (library group :D) but will try and do more research later.
Oh, I forgot to mention, on a positive note, DS1 had 2 normal poops yesterday and one this morning!! :D First time in weeks! YAY!
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Just had a chance to do some more reading. We need IgA cells to build immunity and the rebuild the wall of the intestines. Some of this you all will probably already know since we're working on restoring the gut lining, but here's some basics and a clear explination of IgA function:
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"When the System Works
The intestinal tract’s ability to prevent the absorption of whole protein is dependant on the health and integrity of the mucosal barrier. It is the proverbial guardian of the body at the gastrointestinal gate. The mucosal barrier (lining of the gut) is comprised of both structural components and immune system components. The structural components physically prevent the absorption of large proteins. The immune system component is responsible for recognizing potentially harmful contents of the gastrointestinal tract. The health and integrity of the gastrointestinal tract is dependant on the normal structure and function of the enterocytes, effective protein digestion, and the presence of the immune cells (called IgA cells) in the gastrointestinal tract.
The Gut and Immune System Together
Prevent Food Allergies
IgA cells are a type of immune cell secreted in the intestine. Some of the IgA will float freely in the contents of the intestine while other IgA attaches to the wall of the intestine to prevent whole protein from coming in contact with the enterocytes. Just like volleyball players they bounce whole proteins back into the contents of the intestine for more digestion. The more effective protein digestion in the stomach and intestine is, the smaller the proteins are when they come in contact with the IgA. Small proteins and single amino acids do not get bound to the IgA and are allowed to pass by the IgA and be absorbed into the body as nutrients."
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I was pretty sure that's what I had read before, but now I understand the role of IgA a little clearer after reading that. As my ND pointed out, we need to build up the IgA in the boys (hence the Vital Immune) It would seem if S Boulardii serves a similar purpose then it definitely could be benificial as well. Thank you again for the suggestion, Karen :-*
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A decision has been made to lock this thread now as it has become too specialised and moved away from the core BWer E issues that we as a website exist to offer support in.
If you wish to continue supporting each other and discussing this diet then I would suggest via PM or through an alternative chat based website.
Please feel free to pm me if you have any issues with this decision.