BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: LarasMama on January 23, 2012, 03:06:03 am
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Currently I'm pumping and giving DD EBM in a bottle. Today we have company and I have confined myself to the bedroom. DD was acting hungry and I was kind of caught without her bottle. I was cuddling her in my lap, her nose near my nipple and then she just popped on. She still had a shallow latch, but I was just so happy to have her back on my breast (as lately I've been feeling really down that she's not drinking from the tap) that I let her to continue to to suckle, as it wasn't terribly painful. I could cry, and almost did I was so happy.
I know she wasn't getting enough because of her shallow latch, so what would the best plan of action be to get her back to true breastfeeding and not cause DD too much distress with being hungry while we learn to latch properly? She will now take my nipple in her mouth at least, where as before she act as if I was poisoning her. I'm going to give my local LLL leader an email to see if she can give me a hand as well.
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Best thing I ever did to help DS with his shallow latch was baby-led attachment and address the cause of the shallow latch, which in his case was the flow of milk being somewhat like a fire hose, so I lay back to feed (something like this: http://biologicalnurturing.com/) and did block feeding. From what I've read, lying back can help a shallow latch just because they can't hold their head far enough back to make the latch too shallow (not sure what neck strength she has at 7weeks though).
I went backwards and forwards between feeding from the breast and bottle feeding EBM a few times.
Good luck, I'm really glad I was able to feed from the breast again rather than detouring the milk via a bottle, I hope you are successful.
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So happy to see your post, don't have much advice though, we also had issues with BFing and latching for the first month of ds's life, but by time he seemed to catch on and learn! I do remember that the football position helped loads at the time as well.
Good luck :-*
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How lovely!! What a beautiful moment!! She looks like such a little sweetie too!
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i only have about 30 seconds here but wanted to second bec. Biological nursing is fab and got us through a real rough patch when DD was refusing. Def get in touch with the LLL and also a lactation consultant if you can.
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I pumped and bottle fed for the first three months (though not due to a diagnosed shallow latch, I had cracked and bleeding nipples at first and then D just preferred the bottle :() and we got back to full breastfeeding. PM me if you want and I can try to help! xx
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Would you ladies say its okay to let DD comfort suck while we try to get a relationship established? I have yet to find a pacifier she likes, other than me. I tried to give her one this morning, and she refused. Tried to give her a bottle, and she refused it too. So I decided "What the heck" and popped her on. She was quite content suckling on me. Her latch didn't feel quite as shallow.
I tried to follow the biological nursing method of being laid back, and my breast smoothers her. This may be TMI, but I do feel it's part of our problem: my nipples and breasts are large. I had purchased the Ameda Purely Yours pump and used the flanges that came with it. I filled them, so I purchased the Large flanges. The 30.5mm fit my right breast perfectly, and I'm going to try the 28.5mm on my left as I seem to have a hard time getting milk out of that one. DD is pretty dainty--or so I am told.
Vikki, your post gives me hope :) I will PM you later for more help. We have a busy day today visiting.
Thanks everyone for the encouragement! I'm praying that things will work out because this is more important to me than I had initially realized.
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Yes, I'd let her comfort suck a bit while you get established (providing you're not sustaining damage to the nipples) but try to have an idea of when you'd stop that. Not sure what you've tried but sometimes the old-fashioned blobby pacifiers work better than the orthodontic ones(and may help getting her to learn to open up really wide).
I had a similar issue, small baby, big boobs but flat nipples - as he got better neck strength it was easier to do it that way. In the meantime, can you lie her on your arm down the side she's feeding off and use the other hand to make an indentation on the breast under her nose so she can breathe? That's what I had to do for a bit...
Hearing you on BF being more important to you than you realised!
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Becj86, that's what I'm doing now. I have a nice breastfeeding pillow that holds DD at the perfect height for a latch. So I'm actually semi-hands free. I just keep DD pressed close to me (her shoulders, not her head/neck) as she's a bit of a bobber. I'm not sure what that is about. When I do express with a pump, my letdown is pretty strong, so maybe she's getting a bit much in the back of her throat?? IDK.
Ok, ladies. Will you be able to answer this question for me? As soon as DD lets go, my nipple looks a little bit like an orthodontic pacifier--the same shape, my nipple is still pink, and not white. It doesn't hurt, it's not more uncomfortable than my pump. I kind of figured because my nipple ends up shaped like a pacifier meant to promote a healthy mouth, that this is fine. Is this ok?
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hmm- I THINK that's ok- as long as there's no pain... (or not too much...) i think if it's flat then that's a problem... but an orthodontic sort of shape would be fine i'd say.
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Do you mean used lipstick shape? If so, the latch is still shallow but will probably improve further as LO grows.
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I think I know what you mean and if so I get it all the time with a good latch. The lipstick shape is not as good as becj mentioned.
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Lipstick shape, that's a good way to put it. Yes, that's pretty much what it looks like. So with time that will improve? If so, thank you so much. That makes me feel so much better.
I had a bit of a moment this evening as I called our Public health centre for breastfeeding clinic, and the nurse I spoke with wasn't very hopeful that I'd be seen as DD is 7 weeks old and we "seem to be doing ok". I almost cried on the phone with her, as I don't feel were doing ok, we're doing less than mediocre IMHO, and did cry when I got off the phone. It was not the information, or encouragement I wanted. I've gotten back in touch with the LLL leader I was e-mailing before, and I think I may just have her come for a home visit. I really wanted to avoid that as my place is very...1960's (that HORRIBLE wood paneling they loved putting up on walls in basements--yuck), and I'm self-concious in general with what people will think. Our landlord is a bit of a slumlord and takes all of our rent and pays his entire houses' mortgage with it, but doesn't put anything back into this home, even if it were to benefit him. Cannot wait for the next few months to be over so DH and I can concentrate on saving money for a decent downpayment for our own home. Neither here, nor there.
Thanks ladies, for all your help.
Also, DD needs to suckle almost ALL the time now. I couldn't do anything this evening without DD getting upset. She'd fall asleep suckling, and no sooner did I cover my breast back up, she fussed. I caved in as this is something I want SO badly, however I was getting exhausted and eventually popped a pacifier, and just kept putting it back when she spat it out. She eventually took it, but I know it was begrudgingly. I know she wanted my breast, of that I have no doubt. She was flat-out refusing the bottle all evening. It's encouragement, but boy is it exhausting.
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Sorry hon, just running out the door yet again. ::) My LC told me that when your nipple was lipstick shaped it was a sign of a really insufficient latch. You need to try and get her mouth WIDE befire quickly popping in your nipple. Easy said.... :(
BUT DD had an insufficient latch for 9 months! I could never really fix it and she thrived. My nipples were sore to start with but they toughened up! I seem the LC many times and a LLL lady and they could get her to latch correctly but whenever I was by myself I could never do it. She gained fine and was happy and healthy. Just letting you know my experience.
(((((hugs))))))
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Yeah, the lipstick shape is not good, but if your nipple isn't white any more, that's an improvement on before. Lying back and baby-led attachment should help too but really its pretty difficult to do that when LO's head is half the size of your boob! It does get better and mostly just with LO growing in my experience.
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I'm sorry the lady on the phone was not more help. Don't worry about your house, I'm sure she's seen much worse!
Check this link, there is some good latching info there if you need it. Itjust takes lots of practice...and some growth too.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=70305.0
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I had my nipple in lipstick shape after a feeding before DS' tongue tie was clipped - could she be tongue tied?
I'm in a similar situation, he was bottle fed for a while before of the TT and now again because of his reflux he won't BF during the day, only takes a bottle (but will BF at night). It's not easy, I totally understand your feelings.
Good luck! :-*
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Elise, I wondered the same but I'm not sure. Wouldn't they have noticed it in the hospital, or could that have been missed? DD has her 2 month appointment on the 6th of February, so I'll ask then...or if I get into the breastfeeding clinic before then (I actually received a phone call late yesterday afternoon, I'm very relieved) I'll ask there as well.
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For us they saw it in the hospital but the LC I saw told me that often they are missed since sometimes it can be big enough to affect BF but not enough to be really an issue from a medical perspective.
Does she make a clicking sound when BF? DS did that before his TT was clipped.
I think at the BF clinic they can definitely tell if that's an issue.
Good luck!!
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She does make a clicking noise on breast AND bottle. Whats the probability of it being TT? Now I wonder if it's too late to fix it?
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Its not too late to fix a TT hon, a lovely BWer on here had her DDs clipped at something like 5 months! Want me to get her to come 'talk' to you? She BF her DD. :)
How does her tongue look? TT usually makes the tongue look heart shaped and LOs with a TT generally cant stick their tongue out.
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That would be me and TT'd DD.
I was "lucky" to have OS and OAL as well as (TMI) very small breasts even when pg and bfeeding and also small and "easy" as in very flexible, stretchable nipples. Also, the fact that she was my 2nd baby made it "easier" both psychologically and hormonally for us as a bfeeding "dyad".
We didn't know about the TT (shame on me as a speech and lg therapist). I knew there was something "up" as DS had been the perfect bfeeder, lost only 90g and was up 200g on birthweight by day 5, never a sore nipple, never an issue with latch, clicking, choking and STTN at 14 weeks.....
DD was a different story. I thought she was just more "touchy" than him. Turns out she isn't touchy at all but was an angelic spirited trying to deal with a tongue tie, OAL and OS!!! She reached birthweight at only 2 weeks 5 days but here, if you give birth privately, they don't do weight checks after discharge until 6 weeks if baby is otherwise healthy. I had my own baby scales and was worried but "informed" so we went with it and she got better and better at getting a good feed and dealing with the OAL - through block feeding, pumping a little at beginning of feed, feding against gravity etc etc.
She was a very long baby - 58cm at birth - and was down to 3.2 kg at her lowest (born 3.7) but the docs were happy with her by 6 weeks as she was on 97th for length and "still" or rather back to 50th for weight....no matter what my complaints about unsatisfactory feeding times, breastmilk all over me and her and not in her belly etc etc they didn't seem to care. I finally clicked about the TT around 12 weeks (!?!) but at this stage she was doing "so" well (75th for weight and still 97th for length) the reg paed didn't even want to send me further. We got a referral for ENT surgeon and they clipped it once we got there at 8 days short of 5 mths. Honestly, it didn't improve our "Feeding relationship" as we still had bobbing on and off, major distraction and full feeds only if and when in the dark,....but her weight finally met up with her length in the month after clipping and stayed that way for the rest of bfeeding and beyond.
I am glad we clipped but sad we couldn't do it earlier....Emma's clip is only a partial one unfortunately due to the "age" she was when it was done - there is a significant amount of scar tissue there that reformed probably soon enough after the procedure. If done earlier, it may have been better. For now, speechwise, she can make every sound in her two languages except the Polish rolled /r/ but this typically comes a bit later than 3 yrs anyway so I am not blaming the partial tongue tie though it is still quite obvious (she can't tip her upper lip or lick it).
Hope you can find out soon enough in terms of the tongue tie - check when your DD is latching whether or not the tongue passes her gumline, this is a good indicator.
S x
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I agree it's not too late. FYI we had it clipped at a dentist which uses a laser to clip it instead of scissors. It's just another option, in our case, it was too large to cut it with scissors since he was so small. Not all dentists do it as such a yound age but some do.
Good luck :-*
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A great option, and one I would have gone for had I been more knowledgable on the subject, is a pead who is also an IBCLC - they are really the most qualified and experienced in the area of TT affecting bfeeding (can assess a feed beforehand as well) and are also qualified to do the snip there and then. There are two of them in my city but I didn't know anything about them at the time :-(
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Thanks for coming along Shivi! :-*
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DD is able to stick her tongue out, so maybe she is not tongue tied.
Thank you guys, so much for the support. I, myself, also need to remind myself "If it were so easy, everyone would be doing it." It is tough, especially how I'm still on my hang-up of "what if she isn't getting enough". I berated myself all the way home from the hospital after her blood tests came in. The nurse I spoke with yesterday said something that really stuck with me "trust her", and if I didn't take away anything else (she gave me some advice with positioning, as well) she had said, that was the most important.
While I wait for our clinic, what would you guys say of my plan of action: I give her the breast every time she's hungry, and then supplement with a bottle if she'll take it? Lately she's been refusing.
How can I tell the difference between comfort suckling, and eating? I have a hard time hearing swallowing, even when she's on the bottle. Is there a visible way to tell?
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Hi there,
Just jumping in to offer ((hugs)) and also to say I think what you are doing is amazing.....
I don't know if it will help at all, but when dd and I had a bumpy patch, the UK breastfeeding helpline also recomended biological nursing, but they said to try it in the bath with her.....we actually never did, but I can see the skin to skin and womb-like thinking behind it.
Also, please do not feel self conscious about your house, those proffetionals are there to help YOU.... Be proud of what a great mummy you are
Xxx
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suckling for comfort is very light, feather like.
Sucking for nutrition starts off very frequent, like suck-suck-suck-suck-breathe a few times and then should go into a rhythmic pattern - suck, suck -breathe or suck, breathe, suck, breathe when the letdown happens. At the end of a feed the featherlike sucking can happen again until baby unlatches herself (or doesn't, my DS never did).
HTH and hugs,
S x
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You shoud hear the little 'puff' of out breath after the swallow- we all do it.. try to listen when you swallow, or when your older children are having a drink- you should hear it, or see it.. it's probably a more definite 'puff' than when she is just sucking for comfort or breathing normally! That's easier to hear than the swallow. Also you may see her jaw moving now just more slowly but in sort of wider, more definite movements (does that make sense)- this is as she uses her mouth to suck in a mouthful of milk before swallowing.
Can i just say that i am totally in awe of you! It is so worth while to keep up with the BF- but can be difficult!!
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Thanks guys, again! ((((((Hugs to all))))) I'm so happy to find such a supportive community :)
I do hear a puff of breath after the swallow, and I know what you are speaking of Katy. So she is swallowing. Good to know. The poor dear gets frustrated at my milk's flow, so I'm thinking I may limit the bottle a bit. I'm terrified of her loosing weight and the doctor to be annoyed at me, but I think it may just be for the best until she can eat lot more efficiently at the breast.
For my own temperament, I have to find DD's frustration funny so that I don't get frustrated myself. The poor dear stuffs her fists into her mouth and shakes her head back and forth. THE most frustrating part, though, is she has to have her hands near her face, and trying to battle her arms out of the way just so she can latch on is a bit annoying, but I take my time and be patient. I have tried pinning one arm between her and I and she gets even more frustrated she can't move the arm, so it's just easier to relax and wait for the most opportune time to get to latch. It does come, and I'm getting pretty good at latching her on with one of my arms so I can hold the other out of the way. It does making latching a bit difficult for herself as I can't hold my breast the way they show you in the hospital, so I'm hoping this is something that can be addressed at the clinic. I think I may even try to swaddle her, even if she does get grumpy about being swaddle until then.
Thanks again, ladies.
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I have heard from some ladies that swaddling helps, provided it doesn't put her to sleep. :)
You sound like you're doing great! :)
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Great job! Just imagine us all cheering you on and fixing you a tea as you try to relax! (Or as it's imagined anyway- we can be fixing you a wine if you like!!)
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THE most frustrating part, though, is she has to have her hands near her face, and trying to battle her arms out of the way just so she can latch on is a bit annoying
DS was exactly the same, and he outgrew it lately... I'm so glad it was really a hassle to try to get him to latch on. So hang in there, once she gets the hang of it, I think it'll pass.
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Could well be a TT - DD had a posterior tongue tie and lipstick shaped nipple following feeding is a classic sign. Nothing looked wrong with her tongue (she could stick it out, you couldn't see any tight skin under it making it heart shaped at the end etc which are more anterior TT signs) but her tongue just didn't make that wave pattern when she was sucking as it was tethered at the back under the skin.
Often TT babies will have a disorganised suck/swallow pattern, so will gulp quite a lot and then breathe and then go back to gulping, rather than the suck, suck, suck, swallow that you often hear described about BF.
That said, some babies will feed absolutely fine with a TT and they do sometimes stretch over time as well. If you're getting pain and there are any weight issues, I'd get TT assessed by someone who knows what they're doing (i.e. who doesn't just take a quick peek into LO's mouth to have a look - sometimes you need to get a finger in and have a feel too) and go from there.
Good for you for getting her back to the boob, though! Well done!!
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Okay, I may be too excited about baby puke, but oh my!! She spat up! And quite a lot, which makes a small part of me sad, but a larger part of me squealed with joy knowing she's getting some milk. She's been going 2-3 hours between feeds but does take awhile to eat. approximately 30 mins or so, compared to her 10-15 minutes of eating. I'm not entirely sure she's getting her fill, as she often falls asleep at the boob but I'm learning to trust her.
Fiver, I'll make sure to have whoever is at our breastfeeding clinic has a good look in her mouth, as well as our doctors when we go for DD's vaccines. And thanks! I'm seriously a happy mama. She's even starting to refuse the bottle a lot more, which surprises me. But I got what I wished for! :D
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Glad to hear that Heather-Lynn!
DS takes a good 20 minutes to feed, sometimes even 30 so that's not too much I think. To wake her up you can undress her when you feed her and if it's really an issue, use a cold washcloth to rub her, it'll do the job I promise you!
Congratulations, you can be proud of yourself! :D
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:)
Keep it up! You're doing an amazing job!
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Hamish was probably at 20-30 minutes at 2 months so that sounds fine- AND fell asleep almost EVERY TIME!! Sometimes i'd change his nappy and he's STILL be asleep!! She's probably getting to be satisfied!!
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So happy for you! The sick not quite so much so, but sounds like you're both doing great :)
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Well, we went to the breastfeeding clinic. The nurse stuck her fingers in DD's mouth, and I watched her. She said her sucking reflex was great, her tongue was fine, and there was no reason why we can not breastfeed.
HOWEVER... what I was doing wrong: because of my "geography" of my nipples (haha! I almost giggled at this when she said it lol) I had to shift DD a little to get her to latch correctly. Also, I was shown how to hold my breast wrong. As soon as I changed those two little things ta-da! No more lipstick nipple! I almost cried. Another big HOWEVER is DD is a refluxer, AS I SUSPECTED in the first place. I had issues in the bottle department, (theres a thread of mine in the bottle forum) and suspected DD had all sorts of classic reflux symptoms and I have brought it up many-a-time with 3 different doctors and a nurse and none seemed unconcerned. This nurse spotted it off the get go, and I almost cried again because I couldn't shake the feelings that something was not right with DD. She said because DD doesn't cry after feeding, as long as I manage her reflux (changing diapers before feedings, holding her over my shoulder after feedings, among a few other things) medication is not nessecary. Yes, DD is uncomfortable, its very apparent, but it isn't too bad. It will just take time.
Gosh, I'm so proud of myself. And I'm so happy to have your ladies' support :). I'm half tempted to discard/donate all my bottles to other pregnant mamas. Although I think I'll keep one or two for flexibility should I want to go out.
:)
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I'm almost crying for you!! What a lovely result!! Perhaps ditch one or to bottles for the gesture- like a celebration- but keep one or 2 DEFINITELY!! You will- at some point- be happy to get out and about- (and all this ill be a blip at the start! 'oh it was hard to start, but it's been great ever since!). Hugs on the reflux! Make sure you go back to the dr if you feel it gets any worse!
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Oh that's really great that you've got that IRL help and reassurance. Hoping you can keep the reflux under control
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WONDERFUL!! I'm tearing up remembering my own moment like that. Its so nice to feel like someone 'gets it' and gives you advice that's useful :D
Love the 'geography of the nipples' - that's awesome.
So glad things are going better.
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So glad things are going well now!!
Hope the reflux does not get worse!
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So glad that you got the reassurance and validation that you need. :)
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Just checked back on this thread... Yay so so happy for you both
Happy feeding
Xx
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Thanks ladies! Just checked in after a long vacation from the net.
Update, we are exclusively BFing successfully, and even refusing bottles which makes me a touch sad but way more happy than anything! Reflux is a bit better as long as I keep diary to a minimal, however I'm going to bring her back and demand treatment. Seen a few youtube videos of refluxers, and my DD is as uncomfortable as all of them IMHO. One vid made me super sad because if the LO wasn't a boy, it could of been my Lara squirming, grunting and groaning in it.
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You are a true inspiration- I am always remembering that with number 2 i may not be as successful right away as I was with this guy- and that it might be hard! I will keep your story in my head and remember that it can be done!! Congratulations!! I can't believe you now have a little girl refusing the bottle!! This is the only time i've ever been happy about that news!!
And she is such a sweetie!!
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Yay! Well done!! ;D
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Excellent news! :)