BabyWhispererForums.com

SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: g.k on October 28, 2004, 09:49:59 am

Title: Gentle Weaning Plan
Post by: g.k on October 28, 2004, 09:49:59 am
:(  :(
hi i need advice please..my 15 wk old son has started waking at night for 2, 3 hr feeds, this is weird as he has slept thro since 4-5 wks old!! he is gettin baby rice twice a day. any advice welcome...gk
Title: night wakings??? after weeks of sleeping thro???
Post by: g.k on October 28, 2004, 09:50:22 am
:(  :(
hi i need advice please..my 15 wk old son has started waking at night for 2, 3 hr feeds, this is weird as he has slept thro since 4-5 wks old!! he is gettin baby rice twice a day. any advice welcome...gk
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on October 28, 2004, 21:15:00 pm
how long has he been doing this for? if only for a few nights maybe it's a growth spurt, or a developmental thing? hopefully it will pass in a few nights if that is the case!! btw, where is wiltshire?
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 04:33:24 am
What is the rest of his day like?  Perhaps day time awake periods need to be increased.  How long have you been giving him cereal for?  15 weeks is young to be starting solids, maybe this is causing him to not take enough milk and hence the wakings?
Title: Thanks!
Post by: joaquinsmom on October 29, 2004, 15:36:43 pm
BetsyAnh,
Great Advice!!! Thank you so much!!
My son nurses to sleep all the time. I have tried everything to stop this, because everytime I take him off the breast he wakes up and it's back to square one  :roll:
I tried the tip in the Gentle removal plan and it worked!!!!! I only started this last night, so I have yet to see if it finally gets me to the point where he doesn't need to nurse to sleep, but at least it made things a lot easier last night. He nursed, fell asleep and I was able to take him off and put him to bed really quickly!
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Title: still no luck....
Post by: g.k on October 30, 2004, 19:53:26 pm
Hi thanks for your reply, i live in england uk-county wiltshire. I went under advice of the health visitor and he drinks at least 5-6 bottles of 6-8 ozs a day. I have read about the pick up put down but not a chance can i hold him off as he is hungry... weird and very tiring ... any advice welcome...thanks gk :shock:
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: jayne on October 30, 2004, 22:28:30 pm
that is great advice i am going to try that with our night wakenings which are far too early for me 2 am :shock:  i am so afraid for the time change..


g.k.is he having any developmental changes?? rolling over, teething..etc? or maybe he is having a growth spurt??did you change anything during the day??
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on October 31, 2004, 12:09:19 pm
oh, i am SO pleased to hear that it has worked for someone!!! how is it going? last night, i happened to wake up before my LO did (for 2am-ish feed) and when she tossed n turned, i picked her up and fed her, and she didn't wake again until 4! i wasn't awake to  catch her this time, but maybe after a few times of catching her before the 2am, she'll stop waking for that one? let's see!

btw- my li'l un has just gotten really good at crawling (was 8 months on 22nd Oct) and maybe that PLUS the fact that her first tooth is being TOO stubborn and doesn't want to cut PLUS she sometimes cries when i leave her (partial seperation thing) is causing the night wakings.... she wakes 2-3 times once i go to bed (11-12) and usually 2 times after she goes down (7-8)..... ugh!! time change!! let's hope she can adjust!!

let me know if anybody else has tried what Elizabeth Pantley's No-Cry Sleep Solution suggests and how it goes! again, if there are any questions i can try to answer, feel free to post!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on October 31, 2004, 12:10:48 pm
oh, i am SO pleased to hear that it has worked for someone!!! how is it going joiquins mom? wow- you're from guatamala- i'm supposed to be moving to panama city early next year!

 last night, i happened to wake up before my LO did (for 2am-ish feed) and when she tossed n turned, i picked her up and fed her, and she didn't wake again until 4! i wasn't awake to  catch her this time, but maybe after a few times of catching her before the 2am, she'll stop waking for that one? let's see!

btw- my li'l un has just gotten really good at crawling (was 8 months on 22nd Oct) and maybe that PLUS the fact that her first tooth is being TOO stubborn and doesn't want to cut PLUS she sometimes cries when i leave her (partial seperation thing) is causing the night wakings.... she wakes 2-3 times once i go to bed (11-12) and usually 2 times after she goes down (7-8)..... ugh!! time change!! let's hope she can adjust!!

let me know if anybody else has tried what Elizabeth Pantley's No-Cry Sleep Solution suggests and how it goes! again, if there are any questions i can try to answer, feel free to post!

also, have there been any changes g.k?
Title: advice welcome...
Post by: g.k on October 31, 2004, 21:24:04 pm
thanks for your reply and query jane... Firstly i agree with u about the time change as today has been so weird really upset feeding times, so i just gave up in end and fed what and when Jake wanted. Yes as to your query Jake now 4 mnths this wednesday, is trying to roll over only gets head stuck at an angle though ... as for the teething i can see two small white teeth under bottom gums and is slabbering loads... he just seems so so hungry .. typical day
6am feed 8oz ...sleep at 6.30ish till 7.30 ish
9am feed 8oz and spoon feed play till 11am ish then sleep 30 mins
12 pm feed 6-8oz ... sleep at 2 ish for 30 mins
3 pm feed 8oz ... maybe sleep if out for walk
6pm feed 80z and few spoons of baby rice.. play then bath
8 - 8.30 latest another feed 8oz then falls asleep
sleeps till 12 or 1 ish then up every 10 mins 20 mins till i give in and feed usually about 3 or 4am...
then only sleeps for another hour and thinks its time to get up !!!!!
I am going to health visitor tommorow so will let you know what she thinks.... gk
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: Fife_Mum on October 31, 2004, 21:24:33 pm
Quote (selected)
let me know if anybody else has tried what Elizabeth Pantley's No-Cry Sleep Solution suggests and how it goes! again, if there are any questions i can try to answer, feel free to post!

Hi,
I have been using the gentle removal method (and 'moving the milk') at Fraser's last feed before bed, and during the night. It is working! Last night he slept 12 hours! No time change problems here (yet)! I'm expecting him to wake tonight but we are making progress. I also have to concentrate on EASY routines during the day to make sure he gets enough calories in him, by taking regular large feeds instead of lots of 'snacks'. He is gradually moving on to stage 2 foods and meats etc. so that might have helped too.
I kind of plan on using these methods until I find the strength or persuade DH to help with PU/PD.
Cheers,
Vicky
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: jayne on November 02, 2004, 20:42:24 pm
okay i tried this with my dd and she screamed at me for taking her paci out...my goodness it took me over a half an hour to resettle her  :shock:  i think i will try when she is a little older maybe??was there an age to start this at??? she will be three months on the 6th..
Title: Re: advice welcome...
Post by: lkaiser on November 07, 2004, 21:44:47 pm
am interested to hear what the provider has suggested.  My son is 19 wks old and is getting up at least 3-4 times per night.  Have him on a similar schedule as yours but he eats every 4 hrs..8-12-4-8 with 1-2 night time feedings.  Naps for only 30 mins as yours does.  He is not eating cereal yet though.  Any help is appreciated.
Quote from: g.k
thanks for your reply and query jane... Firstly i agree with u about the time change as today has been so weird really upset feeding times, so i just gave up in end and fed what and when Jake wanted. Yes as to your query Jake now 4 mnths this wednesday, is trying to roll over only gets head stuck at an angle though ... as for the teething i can see two small white teeth under bottom gums and is slabbering loads... he just seems so so hungry .. typical day
6am feed 8oz ...sleep at 6.30ish till 7.30 ish
9am feed 8oz and spoon feed play till 11am ish then sleep 30 mins
12 pm feed 6-8oz ... sleep at 2 ish for 30 mins
3 pm feed 8oz ... maybe sleep if out for walk
6pm feed 80z and few spoons of baby rice.. play then bath
8 - 8.30 latest another feed 8oz then falls asleep
sleeps till 12 or 1 ish then up every 10 mins 20 mins till i give in and feed usually about 3 or 4am...
then only sleeps for another hour and thinks its time to get up !!!!!
I am going to health visitor tommorow so will let you know what she thinks.... gk
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: scto on November 08, 2004, 10:40:35 am
i was wondering at what age this should be implemented?? i've just started EASY, should i wait until that's established first before trying this method?

thanks,
sara
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on November 10, 2004, 20:41:20 pm
sorry i have hot replied- i was not notified by bw website!!

the book does not say any age to start to implement, any age is good (personally, i think that the earlier, the easier.... as it's taking some time w/ my 8 1/2 mo..)

as to g.k. and lkaiser- maybe they aren't rested enough after only a 30 min nap? therefore they aren't sleeping as well? mine doesn't usually function very well after only 30 min, and i usually have to put her back to sleep once she wakes up-- i was doing this before i found the book-- i would go in as soon as she cried, and put her on the breast (haven't broken the food/sleep association yet so i'm not too concerned about that at moment..) and once she is drowsy, i put her on my shoulder where she starts to drift off and then back into bed for her second half of her nap. do your little ones wake up rested and happy or crying? if they are crying, try Elizabeth Pantley' method of extending naps:

-a very SIMPLE method she has to get the short napper to sleep longer: "...put your baby down for a nap. set a timer or keep your eye onthe time. about 5-10 min BEFORE the usual awakening time, sit outside the bedroom door and listen carefully (using this time to read, knit, fold laundry, pay bills, etc). The minute your baby makes a sound, go in quickly. you'll find him in a sleepy, just-about--to-wake-up state. Use whatever technique helps him fall back to sleep-bf, rocking, or offerin bottle/paci. if you've caught him quickly enough, he sill fall back to sleep. after about a week or so of this intervention, your short napper should be taking a much longer snooze without any help from you..." SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE! however on my first (and only so far) attempt, my munchkin went from 30 min to 1 1/2 hours.... one off? maybe... hope not!

hope this helps- i'm going to post another bit of her book in just a bit- i will put it in another post labeled- PART 2

any questions, i will try to answer!!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on November 10, 2004, 20:47:13 pm
Quote from: scto
i was wondering at what age this should be implemented?? i've just started EASY, should i wait until that's established first before trying this method?

thanks,
sara

i don't think it interferes w/ easy (at night) let us know how it goes for u! good luck!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on November 10, 2004, 20:49:45 pm
Quote from: jayne
okay i tried this with my dd and she screamed at me for taking her paci out...my goodness it took me over a half an hour to resettle her  :shock:  i think i will try when she is a little older maybe??was there an age to start this at??? she will be three months on the 6th..

maybe wait until 4 months? they should be able to sleep thru then (so i'm told!) does she wake for the paci or for feeds? mine never took to a paci so i hope i can be of some help to you!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on November 10, 2004, 21:30:01 pm
incerpt from my PART 2 post--- moved to beginning of this post!
Title: longer naps....
Post by: g.k on November 12, 2004, 22:24:55 pm
:lol:
Hi BetsyAnh
Firstly i must say thankyou after quickly reading your reply last night i tried today picking jake up 5 mins up before his 30 min nap ended and sure to anything he slept for 2 hours!!!!! couldnt believe it.... aint had that since he was a few weeks old ..... fingers crossed it wasnt a one off...
Just the night times now - he is still waking up at night, every night different and his bedtime is earlier especially since time change. i do try at night to comfort him and put back down but i just know the signs when he wont settle and needs a feed to go back to sleep, then the problem starts as say if he has a 7 or 8 feed, wakes at either 12 or 3 or even both its strange as if he wakes at 12 he will at 3 ish for sure then again at 5 or 6. sorry for rambling on.... but ur advice is appreciated and welcome as i cant believe how happy my wee man was and didnt waken up crying for a change.... thanks g.k
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on November 24, 2004, 21:24:51 pm
Hi BetsyAnh,

My dd has started to wake every 3 hours everynight to bf and I've not been successful with the methods I've always use to calm her down and help her fall asleep on her own. It was just now that I've read this announcement and it gave me new strenght and new ideias to try.

I'll start this night and I'll let you know how it is going (hopefully great! :lol:).

Thank you.
Title: starting over
Post by: joaquinsmom on November 24, 2004, 22:25:26 pm
BetsyAnh,
I was so happy to see this turned into an anouncement, because I had forgoten where this was posted.

We are not doing so great  :(  Joaquín still has a hard time getting to sleep, still wakes up a few times just after he has gone to sleep, and then at 3 to eat, and at 5 to eat again. I think he's really only hungry at the 3 A.M. one, the others are just out of habit...

I can't say that I have been very consistent though. So tonight I'm starting over. From now on, I will be Mrs we-stick-to-the routine-no-matter-what, because I think maybe if I really stick to his routine for a while he'll get the hang of this and latter on we can be a little more flexible. I like the idea of this method. Gradual baby steps that are not so stressful for lo or me.

Let you know how it goes...

P.S. I've never been to Panama City but I hear it's very nice!
Title: Night 1
Post by: joaquinsmom on November 25, 2004, 18:10:50 pm
Ok, so last night went and got him from my mom's at around 6:00 P.M.

6:30 P.M. ate some cereal and then bf a little. He was already sooooo sleepy!! I wasn't sure if I should just put him to bed then or should go ahead and try to do the bedtime routine first. Maybe I should try an earlier bedtime? it would be kind of hard because I get off work at around 5:30 or 6:00.

7:00 played in his room for a bit while I waited for the heater to work

7:15 shower. Didn't go so well cause ds was already very tired. Daddy came at the end got him dried and dressed for bed

7:30 tried to get him to take a bottle from dh but he didn't want to!!!!! he wanted me to do it. Dh insisted HE was going to give him the bottle or NOBODY would. So finally he let daddy do it... for a little while... then it was bf or nothing. But after a little bit he starts "head banging" so I put him on my lap with his back to me and gave him a little formula from his bottle and he fell asleep. Did the gentle removal thing, and it took about 3 tries.

8:00 put him in his crib, with my arms still around him for a little bit and then left the room

8:30 woke up, so I went in, did pat/sh and he quickly went back to sleep

8:38 up again. pat/sh.

8:46 GEEZ!!!! up again?? why??? pat/sh and it took a little longer this time

10:40 up again. pat/sh

11:30 - 12:00 up again. No way he was going back to sleep easily so picked him up, bf for a few minutes. Head banging again. So put him on my lap with his back to me and rocked and shd until he fell asleep (he cried some)

6:00 A.M. cried so dh brought him back to our bed. Bf and went back to sleep until 7:00

So not really awful, but not great either  :? 
Really bad part is that my IL's want to go out to dinner tonight to celebrate getting a new car, and they want to go to this place that's like 45 minutes away  :roll: So much for consistency...
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on November 25, 2004, 21:55:01 pm
Hi everyone!

As I said I started this method yesterday and I've already seen some results tonight! Yessss!

I made some adaptations but maintained the original ideia and tonight my dd fell asleep on her one! She was on my lap but I was sitting down and just pat/shh her. It took about 20 minutes (the first 10 minutes she bf). So let's see how we'll do the rest of the night!  :wink:

Joaquin's mom:

Courage! I'm with you! I know how despairing it is when they start to wake every 15 minutes... specially when we are asleep and the only thing we want it’s to go back to bed as soon as possible!

I also now how difficult it’s to maintain consistency in all routines. One day it’s daddy who arrives late the other day its mum and the other we’re invited for dinner and so on and on...

Well I hope you can manage to stick with the plan and I’ll try too! At least it gave new strenght and I’m encouraged by the results that I’ve already had!

Good night’s sleep for you all :)
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on November 26, 2004, 00:07:02 am
i'm so glad to hear that you are getting results!

i just wanted to let ya'll know that it has been 3 weeks (or so) since i first started this method, and although it seemed as if i would never get past phase 1-when my LO wakes, i don't have to bf to settle (so far so good) i only have to pick her up and cuddle, then into the cot! this takes care of any wakings before 2-3am... let's see how this one and the 5-6am wakings go...

on a good night she wakes 3-4 times at the moment, hopefully they will decrease too!!

i was also thinking that because she is 9 months (where has the time gone!?) she is a bit anxious about that separation thing and cries so she knows i'll be there- she grabs SO tightly to me when i pick her up and REALLY rubs her head into my chest, oh my little monkey! be it habitual, a phase or a little of both, i think i still see (slowley but surely) PROGERESS!! yeah!!

good luck still to everyone- i'll have a look in the book again to see if there is anything that i have forgotten to post already!! xx
Title: night 2
Post by: joaquinsmom on November 26, 2004, 14:52:52 pm
ok, so I managed to get out of the dinner thing...

6:00 went and got ds from MIL's

6:45 got home and fed ds some cereal and water from a sippy cup. Was very impressed that he can handle the cup already! he can even hold it himself most of the time.

7:15 shower. I can't figure it out, he used to love his shower but now he just wants me to hold him the whole time and is really whiny...

7:30 we were getting him dressed when my sister and her boyfriend show up for a visit... I love them so much, and they are so sweet to ds but it was such bad timing!!! so dh tells me we should let ds stay up another half hour so he can spend some time with them.

7:45 ds starts getting fussy so I put my foot down (and feel like a big ol' meany) and say it's time for bed. So I took him to his room with the lights dimmed and TRIED to give him his bottle, which he absolutely did not want, he wanted to bf. So I let him do that but for some reason he kept fussing so I ended up just sitting him on my lap and rocking him to sleep (he cried... a lot  :cry: )

8:17 put him to bed

8:30 woke up and I had to start all over again and it was the same as when I first got him to go to sleep.

10:40 up again. pat/sh

2:00 up again and dh brought him to bed with us (he claims I told him to do this... I must have been asleep) and from then on it was CHAOS. Ds whined and cried and only wanted to suck for comfort. He wasn't really eating, just falling asleep at the breast. So at 3:00 or so I got him to fall asleep again and took him back to his crib, but by 4:00 he was crying again so I got him and tried to get him to sleep again in our bed. More whining and feeding and I don't remember much after that.

7:10 finally just decided to get up and when he managed to fully wake up he was all smiles... only mommy was the cranky monster...

Sandra, thanks for your words of encouragement. It definitely helps to know that there are other mothers in my same situation. Will keep working on sticking to the routine. Good luck to you!

So for now I told dh not to listen to me when I tell him to get ds and bring him to bed with us, but to make me really wake up so I can go to him instead.

Hoping tonight is a good night for all of us...
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on November 26, 2004, 20:14:13 pm
jennifer- is you LO teething yet? what are his naps like?
Title: teething
Post by: joaquinsmom on November 26, 2004, 21:32:13 pm
BetsyAnh,

He is teething. Actually I just gave him some tylenol when I was home for lunch because he was really fussy and acted like he wanted to eat but when I tried bf he kept getting off and on and off and on and whining. So I thought maybe the bottle would be better, but he didn't want it either and he just cried and cried and cried. So I thought maybe he was in pain so I gave him some tylenol.

If he still seems upset tonight I will give him some more and see how that goes...

His naps are kind of all over the place. My mom and MIL watch him on alternate days, and when he's at my MIL's he sleeps a lot because her house is really quiet and she doesn't go out at all, but when he's at my mom's he doesn't nap too well because the house is too noisy and my mom goes out a lot. I know that's not good for him but I haven't been able to figure out a way for him to sleep better at my mom's. So I have been trying to at least have a consistent routine at night.

I love my lo and I know it's not his fault, but I'm soo tired and I'm starting to lose my patience...  :cry:
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on November 26, 2004, 22:17:50 pm
Hi!

Jennifer: How I completely understand you :shock:. I had the same problem with my dd every time she was teething or ill. It all seems very easy on paper but when we try to put in action at the middle of the night and we don't have a good night sleep for at least 100 nights it all seems impossible, our breast is so accessible, our bed is so warm and cozy and why not take him/her with us just one night... and the other... and one more and geeez it turned to an habit :(

Well my dd is 13 ½ month old and I’m still paying all those “just this time” that we made. So I strongly recommend you to stick with the plan and ban social visits at bed time. Every single night that we break the routine it’s one night lost and I know it for my experience. However it is so nice when we wake up and the first face that we see it’s them sleeping like an angel. That’s why I always take my dd to my bed when she wakes for the last feed of the night... perhaps it’s not a good habbit but we all enjoy it so much!

My dd never liked the bottle or the pacifier so the only thing that she wanted was bf. She also refused solids when she was teething and got all the extra calories needed by bf. One thing I've learned is that she sleeps better at night when she makes her naps (she usually sleeps 3 hours/2 naps).

These last nights my dd fell asleep on her own on my lap and went to bed without fuss. However she still woke at least 4 times during night and wanted to bf. It was something like this:

19:30 bf and went to sleep
21:40 woke and wanted to bf (tried to make her go to sleep again with pat/shh but had to bf)
1:30 bf
2:30 daddy went and calm her (took a while cried a lot)
2:45 daddy again
4:00 bf
6:40 come to our bed, bf, and I got up to go to work
7:30 got up and was fresh like a flower!

She's not hungry during the night it’s just to comfort herself! I know that now for sure!

Tonight she fell asleep very well so let’s see how it goes!

Pleasant dreams!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on November 27, 2004, 22:08:02 pm
Jeniffer- if you take a look at my first post on how to extend naps, maybe having your mom try this method during his naps to help him sleep in the day so he hopefully has better nights? my LO has been teething for MONTHS now with none cutting through yet!! i can't even begin to say what that does to her solid foods, nights, temperment.... etc... but she always seems to be happy taking the breast-- don't lose patience my dear!! i know how hard (going through it now myself for a good 4+ months with 4+ wakings :shock: ) it can be to be coherant enough to gradually take the LO off the breast and eventually to just being held and FINALLY only being settled to the cot, but although it has taken me WEEKS to see results, i TRULY believe that they will come!!! hang in there, and as my first post states, if you or your baby get upset IT'S OK TO REVERT BACK TO THE OLD METHOD (BF) BECAUSE YOU WILL SEE RESULTS IN TIME!!!!

sandra- i think that if you all enjoy that last bf in the bed, then that's great but maybe if you want your LO to not wake so much at night, MAYBE try  and have your husband settle her for all of the wakings and try the different phases which Elizabeth Pantley mentions in my first post? i think (and i'm not trying to contradict your methods, by all means if you're happy with bf at night, please continue  :) ) i think that bf on some wakings and having your husband settle her on others might mean unnecassary crying when your husband settles her-- what i think i'm trying to say is that i think if your husband were to settle her than she wouldn't expect the breast, and will not wake up for that reason, and/or you can gradually wean her from waking up for cuddles from daddy until she sleeps through!! please let me know what you think
Title: head banging
Post by: joaquinsmom on November 29, 2004, 17:07:32 pm
Sandra, BetsyAnh thank you so much for your advice and patience, I know my long posts must not be easy to get through...  :oops:  :)

The weekend was not too great because on friday we went out to dinner with the IL's (against my better judgement) and ds didn't get to bed until like 11 p.m.  :roll: The rest of the weekend was shot because we went to the beach and came back last night pretty late.

So I've decided starting today, no more social stuff at night. I was nice last week because I had started mid week and was going to have to break the routine a little at the beach, but this week is going to be different. I know I sound so weak, and I know that it's an awful thing to do to ds this being inconsistent and then expecting him to be a good sleeper, but I will try my best starting tonight.

My problem is ds keeps "head banging" at the breast. I want to do the gentle removal, so I try to let him bf to sleep but he starts getting off and then on and off and on and I don't know why he does this. I start thinking maybe he's not getting enough milk and it frustrates him, so I try to give him the bottle but he won't take it!! it just makes him mad! So I end up rocking him to sleep while he screams/cries a lot. Do you have any advice for this?

Thanks ladies, I appreciate your help sooo much!!!! and I hope you and your lo's are getting really good sleep.
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: jayne on November 29, 2004, 19:55:03 pm
jennifer--

so sorry you are having a hard time...  i found that a good day schedule led to a good night time schedule (sleeping thru) We just got gina to sleep all night but i have to have her get good sleep thru the daytime... we do the same schedule with feeding every day no matter what...

the holidays are hard to stick to a schedule but try to do your best.... lots of luck to you :D  :D
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on November 30, 2004, 09:54:34 am
Hi everyone

I also wasn’t successful this weekend (saturday I had a terrible headache and let my dd sleep with us... and sunday we had a family dinner and just arrived at 11pm.) Last night we arrived late from work and everything was done with an hour delay but it all went smoothly…

19:00 bath
19:30 bf
19:45-20:20 played in her crib with us beside her
20:20-20:30 bf
20:30 fell asleep on her own in her crib Yyyeeeaaahhh!  :D
1:20-1:35 woke and bf (stopped bf using pantley’s plan)
1:40-2:15 woke and I tried to settle her without bf (using pu/pd, pat/shhh and everything that I remembered of)
2:15 bf  :cry:
2:18 I was in my bed trying to get some sleep again…
6:00 woke and bf (and took her to our bed)
7:30 wake up call!

So it wasn’t perfect but it also wasn’t that bad!

BetsyAnh – I agree with you in all points. I love to bf but I hate to do it during night! However even if we have the will sometimes we don’t have the strength (mental and physical) to go trough the process, do you understand me? That’s why I take her to my bed on the last feed. I know that I have to get up like 30 minutes after and I am to sleepy to spend 15 of them sitting in her room bf. What I’ve discovered is that when it’s my dh to go to her she cries a lot and 50% of the times I have to bf. So what we decided to do is: bf and with these methods try to put her in the crib before she’s totally asleep again. If she wakes after a few minutes it’s my dh that goes and settle her down and if he don't succeed I go to her again. We manage to decrease the number of night awaking we have a long way to go!

Jennifer – If you think that your posts are long look at mine :shock:  My dd also “head bang” at my breast when she was younger but I think she was soothing herself. Why don’t you just bf until he sleeps? If you keep with bf and rocking you have two habits to lose so why keep both? As you said he still cries when you rock him so do you think that bf do the trick? If pu/pd worked after bf even better! It’s my advise stupid?  :roll:

So ladies good luck to you all... and babies don’t make your mummies night’s so miserable!
Title: night 1 again...
Post by: joaquinsmom on November 30, 2004, 14:56:56 pm
Sandra, your advice is not stupid at all!! you are so right, I'm setting myself up for more trouble getting him used to rocking again. I guess I just have to be more patient because I think you are absolutely right about him trying to settle himself. This morning I brought him to bed with us at around 5 and bf and he started head banging again but I was so tired, I just let him do it, and within seconds he was asleep!! I kept thinking there was some problem with my milk or something that was making him do this, but I see now that he's just really sleepy, doesn't really want to eat, but is just trying to find a way to calm himself. Thank you!!!

Jayne, I do think a better day schedule would benefit ds, I'm trying to help my mom work something out with her schedule so she can help him sleep better on the days he is with her. Thanks.

Last night wasn't bad:

7:30 shower which he hated, I have no clue why he doesn't like to shower anymore

7:45 dressed him in his crib and gave him his bottle (he can hold it by himself!! so cute!!) When he became fussy we got him out and I held him and he finished his bottle. Rocked him a little and he fell asleep.

8:06 Put him in his crib. I decided to stay with him until he was really asleep to avoid coming back 10 minutes later, but he woke up anyway and was talking and playing but I did pat/sh and he fell asleep in his crib again. Stayed with him for about 15 minutes and left.

This is where it begins to get fuzzy...
1:30 (I think) woke up and bf. Then he kept waking up like every five minutes, so dh helped a couple of times, and I went in a couple of times.

3:00 woke up again. pat/sh

5:00 woke up, so I took him to our bed and bf.

6:00 woke up to bf again...  :roll:

For some reason he has a hard time waking up and he cries with his eyes closed, so I have to pick him up and get him to fully wake up and then he is happy as a clam ???? this little man is a complete mistery to me...  :lol:

So not great, but not bad either.
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on November 30, 2004, 23:47:11 pm
ladies, have a read of this and refer back to the end of my first post and let me know if this helps-- i hope so :) !!! i'm still trying to keep my eyes open!!!!! :shock:  :shock:

from Elizabeth Pantley:
HELP YOUR BABY FALL BACK TO SLEEP WITH ANOTHER PERSON'S ASSISTANCE--   this idea may help breastfeeding and co-sleeping babies

in most cases, breastfeeding and c-sleeping babies wake up becaue they love having access to mommy all night long. anytime they wake up, they see, hear, smell, and feel you and think, "aha! lovely warm milk and cozy mommy. gotta have it!" so, if you have a husband, partner, mother or someone else who is willing and able to hlp for a week or so, you might want to ask that person to sleep near your baby in your stead.

if your baby is younger than about 18 months, set up a crib, cradle, or mattress right next o the helper's bed, as it's NEVER a good idea for someone other than mom to sleep right next to a tiny baby; only mom has that "mother's instinct" that prevents rolling over on the baby. this should e a person your baby is very close to and comfortable with. if possivle, have him or her start this process with naps for a few days first (if not that's OK- start right in with bedtime)

when baby awakens, have your helper rock, walk with, hum to the baby- anything that helps her go back to sleep. try to avoid using a bottle, as you'll substitute one prop for another. if you helper uses a paci to calm baby, keep in mind that at some point down the road you'll probably have to deal with weaning from the paci. many parents find that they are comfortable with that scenario.

tell your helper that it isn't "do or die." in other words, if baby starts to cry and get upset, or if your helper is losing patience, tell him or her it's OK to bring the baby to you. and try again with the next waking. when baby comes to you (notice i said "when" not "if"), follow the ideas in the sectin called Help Your Baby Fall Back to Sleep on His own While you Continue to Breastfeed and Co- Sleep...

i have just included this in my first post!!
****NEW ADDIITON***
HELP YOU BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HIS OWN WHILE YOU CONTINUE TO BREASTFEED AND CO-SLEEP---
Title: getting dh to help
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 01, 2004, 16:24:00 pm
BetsyAnh I think that would be a good idea. I think the ds gets more upset when I show up because he thinks if I'm there it MUST be to feed him. Would it be ok to see if we can set 1:00 A.M. and 5:00 A.M. as the eating times and if he wakes up in between then dh can go to him and try to get him to sleep again? Do you think that would work?

Last night was awful but it was my fault. I was kind of in a bad mood. I got ds to fall asleep and did the gentle removal but it took like 100 tries!!! I was already starting to lose my patience there. I put him in his crib and decided to stay for 20 minutes and of course he woke up like 5 minutes later and would not go back to sleep. I tried pat/sh but he was just playing and talking until he got upset and started crying and then screaming. I got really mad, and I decided this little man was not going to boss me around. He was NOT coming out of his crib. So I stayed with him and used all my patience to just talk to him softly and rub his chest and kiss him while he screamed in my face. Finally he fell asleep and I felt like cr@p.

He woke up at 12:30 and I figured he was probably hungry so I bf, did the removal thing and put him back in his crib. It was a bit easier this time.

Woke up again at 2:30, I didn't think it was because he was hungry but he wouldn't settle down in his crib so I picked him up and he starts acting like he wants to bf, but I decided I wouldn't do that and just sat with him and held him while he cried, hard...  :cry: Did the same thing at 3:30...

Woke up again at 5 and I took him to bed with us and fed him. Woke up again at about 7.

I feel awful that I didn't follow the plan but I was just feeling so angry and frustrated. I know this isn't his fault, but it's so hard to stay calm when he screams so much and it sounds like he's just really mad and there is nothing actually wrong with him. I feel like the worst mother in the world for being angry at a 7 month old, but I'm just so tired. I just want to sleep for more than 2 hours in a row for once!!! This is too hard, I'm really getting to the point where I just might leave him to cio and I don't want to do that. I can't tell you how many times last night I felt the urge to just leave and shut the door. But I kept imagining how scary it would be for him to not know why this time mommy just wouldn't come.
I'm sorry to complain so much, I know you are all tired too, I just wish I could see some progress instead of getting worse all the time...

Hope your nights were better than mine  :(
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 01, 2004, 18:13:59 pm
jennifer- PLEASE DON'T STRESS!!! remember, if you or the lo get upset, it's OK to revert back to the old method (bf) ESPECIALLY if you too tired and worried that you're going to lose it-- and don't worry, you're not alone!! i have also had my moments with Sienna where i am too tired and just wish she could either fall asleep faster, or just not have the night waking at all!!!  what i suggest about the feed is (you'll have to wake YOURSELF up-- sorry hun!) is that if you LO wakes at about the same time for a feed (1 & 5) then go in about 30 min before the wakeup time, and feed him. that way, you know that when he wakes at 1, it's not for food and try to have your husband go in to settle. it's a BIG difference if you wake him for food and if he is waking up and you bf him. i also suspect that if he is on solids, and is happy and fed all day, that he doesn't actually NEED the food at night-- my LO has been waking 3-5 times in the evening for bf (she's 9 months, and has been doing this for about, er 4 months now-- i'm tired too!!) and i can take her off after a minute or so and she'll go to sleep which is what led me to believe that it was for comfort/out of habit...... i want to stress to you again that it's OK to just go ahead and bf if you or your LO get upset, YOU WILL SEE PROGRESS OVER TIME!!!!! hang in there, and you'll BOTH get through this!! let me know what you think  :D and i wish you a better night!
Title: Thanks
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 01, 2004, 21:59:02 pm
Thanks for putting up with me BetsyAnh, I can be such a downer sometimes  :oops:
I think I will try out your suggestion. Tonight will be a bit difficult, since we probably won't get home until about 9:00 but I will try to keep at least part of the routine and maybe try to get up and feed him at 12:00 and see how that goes. I think I did do this once a long time ago, before our little teething nightmare, and it did make a difference. Don't know why I didn't keep doing it... I think I was confused about wheter I should keep doing it every night at the same time or if I should push the feed back gradually... do you know how it is supposed to work?
I know I shouldn't feel like this but it feels like a setback when I have to go back to bf to get him to sleep. I have to get that out of my head and trust that I will see results in time. Thanks for reminding me.
Hope we all have a good night's sleep  :)
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on December 01, 2004, 22:20:19 pm
Hi!

We are having success :D ! These last two nights even dough my dd didn’t sleep all night she fall asleep on her own (bf first and went to crib) and when she woke up it was my dh that settle her down without too much trouble! No bf during night and just 2 night wakings!

Today she fell asleep with daddy beside her without any bf! I pretended to go to work so she thought that she was alone with daddy 8) ! It took like 30 minutes but she never cried and she just called for me once at the beginning!

BetsyAnh: Once again you give good advice and I appreciate a lot! I don’t have access to any books with this method explained so I follow your cues! And I am so pleased that it’s working so well! It’s not perfect but it’s better and it’s all that I want... to get better and better!

Jennifer: reading your words is like and x-ray of my mind :shock: ! I feel exactly the same way for so many times. And do you know any mum that didn’t felt that way not even once? I’m ashamed to admit that I’ve screamed for so many times in thoughts with my dd and wanted to do it for real  :oops: (but didn’t)! We know that we must control ourselves and in the bottom of our hearts we know that they don’t control us although it seems that way... they are just as frightened and confused as us. But it’s hard (and we just feared labor pains han!) and make us unsure of our capabilities. So dear mummy, do things that make you feel good. Pamper yourself. Buy a new shirt or do a new haircut, go to gym classes or go out with friends. Do anything you want that recharges your ”I can do it!” batteries and then you are in full strength again! Once more I don’t know if it’s good advice or not but it was the way that I figured out to help my self. So be strong and stick with the plan! I see results already and I know that it can be reverted by another tooth or cold but I’ve decided to stick with it no matter what. For the sake of my dd and my mental health :wink: !

Lot’s of sweet dreams to you all!
Title: Yay!!!
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 01, 2004, 22:48:30 pm
Good for you Sandra!!! I'm so happy for you and it also encourages me to keep going. And you're so right about taking time for myself, I really need it, but most of the time I feel guilty asking for it (I know I shouldn't but it's kind of programed in my head). What I want to do the most is find some time to go to the gym. I will talk to dh about it so he can watch ds for a while so that I can go.

Thanks and good luck tonight!
Title: Yay!!!
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 01, 2004, 22:56:22 pm
Good for you Sandra!!! I'm so happy for you and it also encourages me to keep going. And you're so right about taking time for myself, I really need it, but most of the time I feel guilty asking for it (I know I shouldn't but it's kind of programed in my head). What I want to do the most is find some time to go to the gym. I will talk to dh about it so he can watch ds for a while so that I can go.

Thanks and good luck tonight!
Title: a little more rested
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 02, 2004, 16:17:57 pm
I thought last night was going to be a mess and it ended up being a very good night!!!!

DH and I had to go to this presentation at 7:00 P.M. which we thought would take about an hour... ended up taking until 10:30. So after that we went to get ds from my mom's and he was still awake  :shock: Since we hadn't had dinner yet, my mom offered us some food and while dh ate, I took ds to my sister's room to bf cause he was getting really fussy. He bf for like maybe 5 minutes and was already very sleepy so I started taking really deep breaths (I read this in another post here somewhere) and that seemed to make him even sleepier, until he completely fell asleep so I kept doing it while I did the gentle removal thing and it worked after only 1 try!!!! YAY  :D I don't know if it was actually the breathing or if he was just soooo tired, but whatever it was it made me happy.

But I thought he would probably wake up when we got home, and then probably wake up at around 3 again... guess what? he slept until 5!!!! It was wonderful! 5 whole hours of continuos sleep!! I couldn't believe it this morning. On top of that, at 5 when dh brought him to our room, I fed him and he went back to sleep until 7. I had to actually wake him up this morning. I am so happy. I'm hoping tonight will be good too. Keep your fingers crossed...
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: Just B and Me on December 03, 2004, 04:56:02 am
Hello all

I just wanted to say I stibled upon this same book a few months ago when searching for a way to get my baby to break the nurse to sleep habit and frequent night wakings. In theory this book is awesome. Also if you have the patience, this is an awesome plan. Unfortunatley, for my son and me, I have little patience and a low tolerance of frustration. SO after getting all excited that I had found a way to break my bad habits with no crying, I tried it for like 2 nights and gave up.

My reason for writing this post is that IF you try this and it does not work, Tracy's Pick up Put Down method will. It worked for my baby, and it was actually less tears than I planned.  Now Tracy and Elizabeth, the author of The No Cry SLeep Solution, have a lot of common ideas. I think that even Elizabeth says at the end of her book if you are getting nowhere with her ideas to try a plan that mimics Tracey's. 

I wish anyone trying her plan the best of luck! Just know if it doesn't work, or if you just can't take it anymore, there is another option besides letting your baby cry it out.

~Natalie
Title: sleepless night
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 03, 2004, 16:23:43 pm
Sandra, Betsy Anh, how did last night go?

We didn't get a lot of sleep last night. We wento to visit my parents because they were leaving for a weeklong trip this morning and they wanted to spend a little time with ds. We ended up leaving at around 9:30 or so. We got home and ds was already cranky. So I took him to his room, bf and he fell asleep. It took a few tries to do the removal, but it was ok. He slept pretty well until about 1 A.M. I was still awake at that hour because I had work to do  :(  so I went to his room and since he was wide awake I just went ahead and bf again. After that he woke up a couple of times, and then at 3 dh brought him to bed with us (I already told him not to do that but we were just too tired). Nobody really got any sleep after that... oh well

The good thing is that I didn't lose my patience last night. Part of it was that I finally got it in my head that this will be a long process, and the other thing is that I found out yesterday that a friend's 3 kids were kidnapped by their dad (they separated about 4 months ago) and she hasn't seen them in 3 months. That just breaks my heart. Her little boy is just a little older than my MJ and I can't even begin to imagine how I would feel if I couldn't hold my little angel or even see him or know that he's ok. I just kept thinking how lucky I am to have a loving husband who would never do that, and to be able to see my lo every day and know that he is always with people who love him and take good care of him. I feel so horrible for complaining so much all the time instead of being grateful for being so blessed. So last night he could've kept me the whole entire night and I wouldn't have cared.

I hope your nights were good and your little ones are safe and happy.
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 03, 2004, 19:50:55 pm
Natalie- i completely agree with you! my situation, however requires a 'no-cry' solution because i live with the in-laws at the moment and if my LO cries they think something is terribly wrong, and will come and whisk her away from me... :twisted:  :twisted:  i am moving to Panama in the new year, and if she still wakes in the night, then i'm going to try a combination of the pu/pd, no cry techniques..... it worked when she was very little and once i try and implement it when she is a year, i will let ya'll know how it goes (hopefully she'll be sleeping through by then, though!!)

Sandra- i'm so happy for you!!! now, you and your dh keep it up and keep us posted!!! you're giving everyone hope and shining some light at the end of that very long and sleepy tunnel! can you please just post how you are putting her to sleep (once in the cot, what do you do? cues, music, etc) so you can share with other mommies?

Jennifer- what i have noticed with mine, is, although i more or less keep to the routine (unless too tired, or she's too fussy... i see a tooth that hasn't cut through yet!!) i DO see improvement but then there will be a night (or naptime) where she wakes up quite fussy and i have to resort to bf and gentle removal... otherwise, i can usually just cuddle her and put her down-- i see rocking to sleep as the next step from bf because you can just decrease the time of rocking (i count to 11 after she puts her head on my shoulder for the last time, then put her down at the moment) and eventually place in cot just drowsy/awake.. that's what i'm aiming for right now, decreasing from 11 seconds (sometimes more :) ) there have even been a few times where i have not had to pick her up, i can just rub her back and say my shhhh and cues- THAT is where i am seeing progess! there are 'regression' days/nights but on the whole, she is FINALLY starting to wake up happy and babbiling from her naps, and i am not having to bf for EVERY nightwaking. in the past (because i could not stick to the pu/pd...IL's...) i have found that jumping right into a different approach, created a COMPLETE regression, and she got VERY anxious before sleeptime to the point that she would not even let me put her in her cot (thankfully this only lasted for a day)-- so here is the advice i wanted to give you: if you have the patience for the 'no-cry' solution, then keep it gentle and gradual and you WILL see progress over time. the other night you wanted to 'stick to your guns' and comfort your LO whil he was in his cot and not take him out which led to both of you getting very upset. i don't think that (i PROMISE i am not trying to critisize you, you are a great mommy and doing what is best for you and your baby!!) jumping ahead a few phases (as in 1st post) or starting a new method and not sticking to it is the answer for you and your little bambino... if you are losing patience (and/or sleep!!) and you want to start a new method that takes less time in the long run, but means less sleep for you and your LO in the short run, and if you can handle a bit of crying, do the pu/pd method, stick to it and and you WILL see progress over time, as Natalie also posted.  Again, you know what is best for the both of you, and it's great that you have such a supportive husband who ALSO has as much patience as you-- may be try the shared approach as in my last post?

i wish everyone a good night sleep, or atleast a good couple of hours!!!!!
xx betsy
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: Just B and Me on December 03, 2004, 22:39:32 pm
Jennifer

I want to say I am so sorry to hear of your friend's misfortune! It is too sad that things like that happen. It is also things like that that really put everything into perspective, like you said you started feeling like you had no room to complain that your baby wasn't sleeping well and you are just happy your baby is still with you!

When I was pregnant, all I could do was gripe about having to quit my pretty well paying job, move out of my own place and in with my parents, sell my little sporty car to get a 4-door for a carseat, and quit going out drinking and all with my friends. My pregnancy was unplanned and very unexpected, so I was thinking of all the sacrifices I had to make that I wasn't ready for. Then one day, a guy I went to school with said his wife just miscarried their baby after 3 months of pregnancy. He was so sad, and said his wife was crying a lot. At that point I was put into perspective and realized how lucky I was to still be carrying my baby, and thinking how I would give up a million sporty little cars just to have my baby.  It is always unfortunate for devastating things to happen to people we know, but at least we can learn from it and realize right away what we DO have!

Ok this post is kinda random and not sleep related, but I just wanted to share.

~Natalie
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on December 06, 2004, 12:57:04 pm
Hi  everyone,

Sorry for disappearing for a few days but they were very VERY busy and just now I had the time to read your posts. My dd 13th tooth just came out and she started to wake more times during this process but at least it’s easier to calm her down. There's another one popping out so it seems that we have to increase our patience for some more days  :?

BetsyAnh, Jennifer, Natalie, everyone: I’m not very good in keeping routines but there is one that I've always used: music for playing, calming and sleeping. Even during pregnancy I’ve listened to this same music while resting and when she was born I used it to calm her down or when she was awake to play with her. I have a lot of CD’s (Fisher Price ones are very good) for different times in the day and she’s always surrounded with music while she’s at home.

I’ve read that babies recognize familiar sounds that they listen before birth and I prove that with my dd. I sang the same song all nights in the last month’s of pregnancy and when she was born when she ruffled I sang it and she immediately stop and look for the sound! She still likes that song a lot!

Before bedtime I can’t keep with no routine and I’ve quit to do it because lots of times I arrive late from work. When she’s ready to go to bed what we do is this:

LONG post and sweet dreams for you all![/list][/list][/list]
Title: back from the weekend
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 06, 2004, 23:46:57 pm
BetsyAnh
Thank you for reminding me that being inconsistent is what has gotten me in all this trouble in the first time (You give advice in the nicest way, I would never think you are critisizing  :D ). It's so hard sometimes because I have so much to do, and I feel like I'm stuck there with ds stuck to me like he has one of those ventose things on his mouth  :lol: Plus dh does not believe this will work, and it's hard not to doubt myself when I know he's out there thinking it's taking way too long to get him to sleep and that I'm spoiling him. He almost never says anything, but I know he's thinking it. It's crossed my mind to do pu/pd but I don't want to confuse him again. I will stick with this and keep my fingers crossed.

Sandra, we use music for bedtime too, but we change it a lot. Maybe if we used the same music every night it would help? And it's reassuring to read that sometimes you have to go back to bf again, because that happens to us too and I was starting to feel that I was doing something wrong.

Natalie, thanks for your message. At least something good came from both experiences. Even if it was something really sad, it helped open your eyes and probably made you enjoy your pregnancy more. Being pregnant and then having a baby sure changes you. And I think it is totally normal to miss things from our life before we were moms. Doesn't mean we wouldn't give them all up in a second for our lo's right?

Hope all of you and your lo's have a good night!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 07, 2004, 00:12:09 am
jennifer- i just wanted to let you know, that from my experience (just over a month, i would say) of doing the 'no-cry' method, although i have seen gradual progress, teeth & seperation thing has caused a bit of regression that does not seem to be taking too long to get back on track (of just needing cuddle when wake up)... wow, have i had a hard couple of nights!! still no sign of first tooth, but the first night, at about 11, once she realised i was not in the room, she would cry and i would go in and cuddle, pat shh (this happened ATLEAST 5-6 times) then she would fall asleep and i think twice when i went in, all she needed was my presence, and she turned over and went to sleep! i got a bit fed up and just bf her until she was deeply asleep that i could finally get away for a bit and finish up housework... then 2am rolls around, and she was up ever hour after that until 7ish and would only accept bf (although, i could take her off soon after she went on.. if i was awake enough!!)--- this hourly waking happened for the last 3 nights... finally to subside last night, hopefully for good!!! so tired!! what funny little phases babies go through!

the advice i wanted to give you (what does your husband think about pu/pd?) is that the book stresses that the 'no-cry' solution is NOT A QUICK FIX method, and the author talks about mothers reaching their goals anywhere from 10 days- 3 months... i don't have a choice at the moment but to be patient and hope that "this too shall pass" but, i must say that if you think you and your lil un could handle pu/pd, you will probably see results sooner-- maybe try a gentler pu/pd (if anyone thinks this is not the way of doing it, please tell me, it's what i would try if i was not with my in-laws) meaning, once you have passed the phase (in first post)  where you don't have to bf every waking, and he just needs a cuddle/pat shh, if you put him down, and no dice, pick him up and give cuddle, but count to ten (or how ever much/less you think is appropriate for you both) and put him down repeating this process until he is happy and sound asleep in his cot- KEEPING IN MIND that if either of you get upset, that it's OK to revert back to bf or cuddle/rocking then to sleep. once this is working, every day or couple of days, decrease the amount of time you pick up  and hold him, eventually (i hope!) getting him to only need pat/shh (or whatever your comforting method is) and you then decrease the time you are in physical contact, (now i'm going back to the phases in my first post from Mrs. Pantley) next just by the side of the cot, then at the  door, then finally out of the room.  if you decide to try this (and nobody objects :) ) please let us know how it goes (or any other method you decide to use! and good luck my dear!  oh, one more thing- i think you should stick to the same music for bedtime, and only play that song at bedtime so your LO will associate that music with sleep!!

sandra- thanks for your posting of your bedtime routine, i think it helps complement what we are trying to accomplish in this message board!

i hope you are all getting more sleep than me! since my LO is 9 1/2 months, i think that age is making this process take a little longer- the younger the less ingrained the 'accidental parenting' and the easier to break!
Title: good night?
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 07, 2004, 15:41:21 pm
BetsyAnh
Thank you for your advice. Last night I stuck to the plan even though it was hard.
I was on my way home from MIL's at around 7:30 when my sister called to invite us to my parent's house for dinner with her and her boyfriend. I didn't want to say no, because they are so sweet and they offered to cook so I asked them if it would be ok to cook at our house instead so that I could still kind of keep our routine. So I got home, tried to feed ds some cereal but he wasn't interested, and then let daddy give him his shower while I cleaned the house a bit. Totally unrelated to sleep: How can I make dh understand that if he lets water fall on ds's face the whole time he'll end up getting upset? I've told him lots of times to put him under the water for a little bit, then take him out and let him play with something, then put him back again. That always works. But noooo, he does it how he wants to and ds always ends up getting upset  :roll: Whatever...
So ds was really not relaxed after his shower, it was a struggle to get him dressed, and then he was all hyper and couldn't settle down even when I bf him. So I was incredibly patient (I am very proud of that, I'm usually not a very patient person) and let him bf a little, play a little, tried to read a book, all of this with dimmed light and some background music. It took me an hour to get him to sleep. I wanted to scream because he was stuck to my breast like glue, and it was starting to make me very stressed! But I breathed deeply and after like 20 tries  :roll: I finally got him off and put him in his crib.
Then my sister and her boyfriend came over and we had dinner, and some wine  :D and ds woke up like 3 times while they were there, but everytime I just did pat/sh for a couple of minutes and he went back to sleep. At midnight he woke up again and I gave him a bottle (I didn't want to bf because I had had some wine) but he wouldn't go back to sleep, so I tried walking with him a little to calm him down and then tried pu/pd and it worked really quickly!!!! it was great!! he wasn't that upset either. I put him in his crib and tried to do pat/sh, and if he kept crying I would pick him up pat his back and talk to him, and then put him back down. After a couple of times of doing this, he rolled over on his side and after a couple of minutes of pat/sh he was out!  :) This sounds kind of like what you were suggesting right?
After that he woke up at 4 and I bf and it took me another hour to get him back to sleep. I guess this is God showing me the virtue of patience...  :D I am happy because I didn't take him to our bed even though I really wanted to. After that he woke up at 7 and although he cried a little before I got to him, he was really happy after that. So again, not the best night but not too bad either... I guess that's all I can hope for at this point.

I really hope your lo is over this waking up every hour phase, I know from experience how rough that is!!!

Thanks for being so patient and nice with me!! I appreciate your support and advice so much!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 08, 2004, 00:41:17 am
it's late and i'm pretty tired so i'm going to make this one brief-

jennifer- it sounds like incorporating a mixtire of pu/pd, pat/shh and 'pantley's way' was really starting to work for you last night- how did you feel about it? i think a combo is also what sandra does depending on how her LO is feeling at the time of the nightwaking... if you're less stressed and (it sounds to me :D ) your little one is settling better, then i think that using the three methods to suit both of your needs is going to have you on the road to a proper nights sleep sooner than you think! and you are so right, patience really is a virtue! i'm glad you had a good evening with your sister, and it gave you some YOU time, and a chance to unwind a bit- you deserve it! keep it up, and soon 'this too shall pass'!
 
another thing- if you had to do the 'gentle removal' method 20 or so, i think that, if you are removing after every 10 seconds, try extending it to 15 or 20 and see how that goes for a while- if it means less tries, and you are both less stressed, then a longer extention is better for both of you, and you can decrease the amount of time from there or hopefully, your ds will wean from the breast this way (longer extention) and move to just cuddle/ pat/shhh.. what do yo think?

 about you dh: maybe just let him know that the run-up to sleep time will help set your son up for the rest of the night- i.e. for the best night sleep for ALL members of the house, the less stimulation (water in the face) you ds has before bedtime, and the more time he has to unwind and relax (which is harder and takes longer when he gets upset :shock: ) the last hour before bed, the better. anyways, i'm sure your dh wants to enjoy shower time with his son, and in order to make it the most pleasurable experience for both a little playtime in the middle won't hurt!!

good luck, i'm so glad you have this new strength and patience, and don't be silly- i have all the patience in the world and as much advice as i can give (although i am in the same boat as you!) it's just nice to know that there are others to share my experience with (hopefully for all it will soon be a memory!) take care hun xx
Title: last night
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 08, 2004, 22:37:09 pm
Thank you BetsyAnh! BTW I always mean to tell you but forget, I love your Avatar, that is such an adorable picture! Sienna looks like a happy little girl.

Last night routine went out the window... again... I guess with the holidays it's going to be hard to totally stick to it so I will just relax and do the best I can. We got home at around 10 p.m. after going to dh's uncle's house for his birthday and then to my grandmother's for her birthday  :shock: Ds was sleepy even before we got to the first party! but when we got there he saw all the people and was wide awake the whole time (although just a little bit fussy). When we were driving to my grandmother's he almost fell asleep, but woke up again when we got there and was really fussy at first and then totally hyper!!

He fell asleep in the car on the way home, but I had to change his clothes so he woke up again. I bf and it took me a few tries to take him off. I think what you are suggesting about increasing the time between removals makes sense. I will try it tonight. Am I supposed to start doing it with him more awake every time? After that it gets a little confusing (lack of sleep results in amnesia for me  :? ) but I think he woke up at 2 and I did pat/sh, and then he woke up at 4:00 and I bf in our bed. And then I had to wake him up at 7:30. So that was pretty good right?

I will talk to dh tonight about helping ds relax before bedtime. I don't want to discourage him from playing with ds, just want him to become more involved in the whole bedtime routine so he understands how important it is to help ds wind down.

How is Sienna doing? hope you have a good night tonight!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on December 08, 2004, 22:44:26 pm
Hi!

I was very pleased to read that things are getting better for you Jennifer. As you read in my last post I also do a mix of all those methods depending how my dd reacts to them and I really think that it works beautifully and quicker (although she keeps waking more times that we wanted  :roll: ). However the most important thing it’s patience. If we aren’t calm enough every unsuccessful try to take them out of our breast or put them in the cot seems hell. If we take a deep breath as you said and calm ourselves it doesn’t get quicker but it sure gets easier :wink: .

Jennifer: if water on Joaquin’s face upsets him why don’t you give in a bath instead? My dd likes shower but she gets very excited so before bedtime she takes a bath every other day and plays with her toys for a while and she is calmer afterwards.

BetsyAnh: as usual good advices! How everything is doing with you?

I forgot to mention two more things that I do: First we never go to Joana immediately after she starts crying. She sometimes cries on her sleep but she stops after one or two cries. Second before I leave her alone I do a test that I’ve learned with Tracy on one episode of her TV series. I touch one foot and if she moves I stay with her but if she doesn’t it’s because she’s fully asleep so I can leave the room. I hope it can help you in any way.

My dd is still teething so she’s waking more often now but it’s quite easy to settle her. I’m trying to give her a bottle of milk before bed instead of bf (I want to stop bf because I’m getting too tired of all these night wakings just to bf) but she only drinks 60ml and ask for bf. She doesn’t like bottles so I use an Avent’s magic cup (did I explain myself correctly?). She refuses it during night. Do you know any trick to help substitute a breast feed for a cup/bottle of milk?

About dh: I think that dh see these kind of problems from another perspective and because they don’t take any time to search for answers like we do sometimes it’s very difficult to have them coping with us and applying a certain method that we want to try and make them stick to it. So I like very much writing to you and reading your opinions because it’s almost therapeutic. My dh help’s me a lot but sometimes he just doesn’t listen the way I want when I talk to him about this methods even though he uses them... in a very adapted way :)

Heavenly sleep to everyone.
Title: Re: last night
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 09, 2004, 00:15:26 am
again, very short this time, off to bed!

Quote from: joaquinsmom
Am I supposed to start doing it with him more awake every time? quote]

move it back when you think your ds is fairly comfortable (or try every couple of days if you're not sure) meaning doesn't fuss too much at the removal, or when it doesn't take too many (i would say 2-3) removals to get him comfortable and off to the cot. does this make sense? i hope extending the amount of time he is on the breast before the removal makes things easier for BOTH of you!

quick update of my own: it's only been in the last couple of weeks that i have realised how to help settle my LO- rubbing her back when in the cot and when she turns to her side (she seems to soothe herself that way) keep a soft but firm hand on her hip/tummy because if she rolls onto her tummy her little legs just want to crawl and then she gets worked up and upset and i then have to pick her up and cuddle her (if i didn't have to do this from the get go!) and instead of immediately shh-ing i say to her 'it's ok, mommy's here, it's ok... it's ok..' and i repeat that until she is not crying anymore and settling, then i go the shh-ing- i think that because she is older, gentle words are seeming to be more effective with her.

as far as progress is concerned, last night i REALLY think she would have gone from 8:30-5am if she didn't have a bad dream at 1am!! poor thing sounded so distraught! i did not have to bf, instead i did what i mentioned above, and she was good- first time in a VERY LONG TIME that she went such a stretch without crying out for me! maybe a one-off, but i hope not! also, most wakings, i do not have to lift her out of the cot anymore- i'm going to see how this goes for a few days then try to move onto the next 'phase' (which i think is trying to comfort from the side of her cot... will have to check!)

more importantly what i want to add, is that the further along the 'phases' i am going, the easier sienna seems to be settling herself and for me as well (maybe that's why she slept so well last night too! fingers crossed!)

sandra- i wish i had some advice for you on substituting breast for cup/bottle but i think it might just be you LO's temperment, and it might just be 'all or nothing' (breast or nothing) but maybe you should try to give water in it instead of milk to make it a completely different experience? my LO will not take formula milk (i think she'll be ok when she is a year and can take cows milk) from her avent sippy, but will happily take water (haven't tried it at night tho). good luck on trying this method- i talked to a mother a few days ago whose 7 month old just started sleeping through the night and she said that she stopped bf at night by putting water in a bottle and tried not to take her out of her cot, instead comforted her in the cot (cried a lot tho) and NEVER gave in to giving breast. i did not have time to ask her how long this took, but i think that if you continue with your own combo and 1. TRY not to give breast (but DO if either of you get too upset) 2. have DH help and maybe him give the sippy/bottle (mine never took to the bottle) at awake times 3. check the weaning board and hopefully you'll find better advice there- please share if something works for you! i think we would all rather not bf at night because then maybe our LO's will decide it's not worth waking afterall!

wow. wasn't short afterall! anywho, nighty night!
good luck to all, and hope you have a good nights sleep zzzzzz....
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on December 13, 2004, 10:33:50 am
Hi!

This holidays are not helping :cry: !!! We’re having lot’s of dinner’s and it just messed our routine completely!

So now she wakes again every 3 hours and WANT bf…

I’m working on reducing the number of bf but it’s a very hard struggle and there isn’t any tips anywhere how to help us doing it!

I’m also more tired so I easily quit at night. I think that I need to be more rested to put everything on tracks again… but when?!

Hope everything is going well with you!

Sleep tight.
Title: no routine
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 13, 2004, 16:49:02 pm
Sandra, I know what you mean about the holidays. Thursday night my parents returned from a trip, and since that day Ds's bedtime has been 11 p.m.  :roll:  So you can imagine how much sleep we've all gotten (none!)

Haven't been very motivated to post because things are not going that great. Removals have gotten a little easier, but it's still very unpredictable, one night it takes one try and the next night it takes 20... But for the most part, it takes about 3 or 4 now, so I guess that's some progress. I'm just starting to worry because I start school in january, wednesdays and thursdays from 6 to 9:15 so I won't be ther to put ds to sleep, and I know dh will just let him cry...  :cry:  :cry:  I've worked so hard to avoid that, and he just doesn't get it.

Last night I was at the end of my rope. I just couldn't handle bfing any longer, so dh came and got ds who was very upset, calmed him down and then put him in his crib again and sat by him, and ds just cried and cried. Dh got something to read and just sat by his crib reading!! I couldn't stand it, so I went in to comfort ds, I didn't take him out of his crib, just did pat/sh and kind of held him in his crib, and he finally fell asleep. Dh got very angry at me and told me that if I wasn't going to let him do things his way then I would just have to do it alone  :cry: I really don't know what to do.

We NEED to improve drastically in one month, or I don't know what will happen when they are left alone with each other. I'm not sure what I'm doing is the right thing, but I am CERTAIN that letting him cry is not the best thing for him. Everyone tells me I'm spoiling him but I don't care, he's my son, and maybe I don't know for sure what is best in this situation but I do know what is worst.

So happy I have this place, and I know that in some way I am not alone.  :cry:

Hope you guys are making progress.
Title: Greetings
Post by: Frosty on December 13, 2004, 16:54:12 pm
Hi to everyone on this topic.  I wanted to let you all know that I have been lurking about reading all of your advice for the last couple of weeks as we are struggling with similar issues with our ds.

We have been trying the Pantley method to get ds off of his pacifier at night for about five days and are seeing only moderate progress.

However I wanted you to know that your posts help keep me on track and I appreciate you sharing your experiences.

Thanks!! :wink:
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on December 13, 2004, 22:27:45 pm
Hi!

Jennifer- I wanted to help you more and say to you “this is the way” but unfortunally I don’t know it even for me :cry:  I don’t know if one month is enough but probably letting him cry is not the solution for sure. Once I decided to try it and it was awful  :roll:  she got so upset that she didn’t sleep anything and in consequence me either! It’s also difficult when our dh don’t feel comfortable in trying and maintaining these methods because consistency it’s all and they need it. Did you explained to him all the methods and let him choose which he prefers? Perhaps if he likes one better he will stick with it?! I wish that I could help you more but be sure that I’m 100% with you and crossing fingers! Don’t forget to rest and pamper yourself! You are needing it :wink:

Frosty – Welcome! This way isn't quick but for me it’s very smooth and “almost tears free”! So I’m wishing that everything goes well with you and let us know how you’re doing!

My dd went to bed after bath at 18:40 today :o She bf to sleep but only for 5 minutes. She cried without waking up at 22:00 and dh just shh her. Let’s see how it goes tonight.

Sweet dreams.
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 14, 2004, 20:12:11 pm
these next two posts are not intended for any of you ladies, i just thought that i needed to put it in just in case anyone felt they were at the end of their rope- and i REALLY am too tired to type it all out so i hope it's ledgable (sp?)


from 'The No-Cry Sleep Solution' by Elizabeth Pantley:

I've Tried Everything! Nothing Works! Help!"
the ideas in this section are intended for anyone at the end of the rope or anyone who is ready to give up and let the baby cry it out.

for many different reasons, not every test moommy i worked with had fabulous, immediate success. a few parents struggled---->
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 14, 2004, 20:19:16 pm
pg2
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 14, 2004, 20:25:54 pm
final pg
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 14, 2004, 20:32:55 pm
i have also added some more ideas to my first post....

jennifer- i agree with sandra, and think that if your husband can stick to a routine (pu/pd is my advice in this matter) and you both give it a real go, your little one might  be on his way to a better night's sleep- just explain to your husband that if your LO is going to cry ANYWAYS, atleast comfort him and let him know that he has to let his ds know that he hasn't done anything wrong, and for that reason really shouldn't be left to cry while he just reads a book. you mentioned he wanted to be involved in the bedtime routine, well, he's about to be thrown into the deepend! good luck!
Title: giving up... sort of
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 16, 2004, 16:47:21 pm
I hope you all won't think I'm a quitter...  :(
Last night, I decided to go back to the method that helped us once before. It just seems like ds is getting more and more attached to the idea of nursing to sleep instead of learning to sleep on his own. I know this is probably my fault for not sticking to his bedtime every night, and not doing the routine consistently, but the holidays are just killing us here, and we need to get some results before jan 10th so sadly I am giving up the no crying thing...
Last night I bf and after like 10 tries of the gentle removal, I just decided no more. I sat with him and held him with his back to me and kind of rocked him and sang to him until he pretty much fell asleep. Then I put him in his crib, and he woke up, so I picked him up and walked around the room with him slowly, singing to him. He whined and pushed me away, and tried to look at every little thing in his room, until he finally got really really sleepy, almost completely asleep, and I put him in his crib. He opened his eyes a little, but after a few minutes of pat/sh he went back to sleep. He woke up a couple more times after that, but only needed pat/sh.
At around 1:30 he woke up and I bf. He woke up again at 3:30 and since he couldn't be hungry again I just walked with him again until he fell asleep and put him in his crib. And when he woke up at 5:30 dh brought him to our bed and I bf and he slept until around 7.
I know walking with him is probably another prop, but I think I can handle this one a little better that bf as a prop. I was really getting to the point they talk about in the pages of the book BetsyAnh posted. I was starting to resent my little precious and then hate myself for it  :oops:
This method worked for us pre-teething disaster, I had almost gotten to the point where I only had to walk with him for like a minute before I put him in his crib. So I will give it a shot.
Please don't think I am trying to discourage anyone from doing the no cry solution, it's just that for us, right now, it wasn't the best way. If we had had more time, or if it was another time of the year, it might have worked, who knows...
Thanks for all the great advice and good luck with your los!!!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 16, 2004, 19:18:40 pm
jennifer- YOU ARE NOT A QUITTER! don't worry, the whole idea of this post is to help people find THEIR OWN way that best suits BOTH the parents and baby- just one peice of advice- i think that what you are doing is great especially becauese you said it worked for you once before.. the only thing i want to add is that i don't think your LO needs the first bf at 1:30 (unless you clearly see he is exhibiting hungary signals, or the walking/pat/shh is upsetting either of you too much) and that walking with him sometimes, and bf sometimes might not be as effective as just keeping him in his cot/your lap/your arms for EVERY waking- i think if you can stick to what you are doing to settle him, and keep it consistent with every waking, you will see results MUCH sooner- what do you think? good luck, and i hope that you will be seeing a good nights sleep by the new year!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: katie6579 on December 17, 2004, 01:47:24 am
I'm going to jump in here too because I've been reading the book and following your posts occasionally. You ladies are dedicated! The holidays are difficult for sure, and dh's don't seem very helpful. Mine loves road trips, and ds is at an age where he dislikes the carseat; routines go out the window on the weekends.  :x I love the part in the book where she says "baby doesn't know what day it is and doesn't care"- too bad dh doesn't realize this. Anyway! We are (I am) attempting gentle removal with ds (he slowly but surely got addicted to the breast!) but I can't seem to get over the first phase. After a few weeks, he still seems unable to fall asleep any other way. Maybe I am being TOO gentle? I'm ok with slow progress, but I have to see some!! I'm also worried that the sixth month growth spurt is about to wreak havoc on the little progress we've made so far. Well trying to be brief and hoping this isn't a rhetorical question, but what do I do now? I'm stuck, even after those pages Betsy (nice idea BTW!) I feel like we will be stuck with 30 minute naps and sleep on the boob forever! And I feel like quitting too Jennifer, that's easy to relate to. It's so nice not hearing ds cry about it that I almost can't let him anymore!  :oops: Oh well. I got us into this mess. Any comments are very welcome. Best wishes to you all.  :)
Title: plan b
Post by: joaquinsmom on December 17, 2004, 21:29:02 pm
Thanks BetsyAnh, I think you are totally right. If I bf sometimes but not others he will be very confused. So last night I made sure ds ate before we started the bedtime routine so I wouldn't worry that he was crying out of hunger.
I tried reading him a book while he was in his crib but he got all fussy so I took him out and started walking in his room with him and singing. He cried a little harder than last time, but I think less than 10 minutes later he was fast asleep  :) So I put him in his crib and left the room. I think he woke up a couple more times within the next hour, but all he needed was some pat/sh.
At 11:30 (just 30 minutes after I had gone to bed  :roll: ) he woke up again and wanted to bf. I knew he couldn't be hungry (although I still felt like the worst mother in the world) so I walked with him again, and it took less than 5 minutes to get him back to sleep. Did that again at 2:30 (I think). After that I felt so very guilty about not feeding him that I just looked at the clock and wished with all my heart that 5:00 would come so I could feed him!! (I know, it doesn't make any sense, but I figured that was a long enough strech of time for ds to go without eating). So at 4:45 he woke up again and dh brought him to our bed and he bf . But I did realize that he wasn't hungry the other times because it didn't take much for him to go back to sleep.
We'll see how tonight goes, but I think this is going to work for us (hope hope hope hope).

Katie, Good luck getting your lo to sleep better!! The problem with us and the gentle removal method was the timing I think. Because of the holidays we haven't been doing bedtime at the same time everyday, or even getting all our routine done (sometimes he falls asleep in the car on the way home). On top of that, I start school soon and ds and dh will have to get through bedtime on their own, so I couldn't keep nursing ds to sleep. We were making some progress with the gentle removal, the removals were a little easier, but I would recommend having something else as part of the routine, like reading a book or something so that when you take away the nursing he still has some other things left that remind him that it's bedtime. I didn't do that, so our whole routine was nursing to sleep  :roll:

So thanks for the support and good luck with your los!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 19, 2004, 16:33:44 pm
katie- what are the removals like? it took me about a month to see progress, but i did, and only had to cuddle my LO upon most wakings... until that tooth decided to cut through! i'm back to square one at the moment, but i'v had one regression (tooth coming up) a few weeks back, and itdidn't seem to take TOO long to get back to where i was... as far as 30 min naps are concerned, the 'pantley' way to extend naps isn't working? what's happening when u try? i have actuallly been doin that before i read her book, and although it DID extend her naps, it wasn't until i saw progress at night (needing boob less for wakings) that my LO learned a LITTLE bit more how to sooth herself, and i no longer had to go in halfway through the nap and bf her.. again, until the tooth came (FINALLY!!!!! almost 10 months.. been teething for 4.. ugh!)

jennifer- i sounds like, and i hope that things will be gettin easier for you and crying times shorter- back when i was seeing progresss with my LO, it seemed that the 5am waking wasn't going w/out a bf with mine as well. see how it goes for you, and if he begins sleeping longer, maybe try eliminating that one in a few weeks too?

sandra & frosty- how are things going with you?

good luck everyone- pleasant dreams!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: Frosty on December 20, 2004, 01:57:07 am
It's interesting how everyone seems to go through things at the same time.  Although I am relatively new to Pantley's method (having been trying to implement it purely from your advice), we have also taken a break from it for the past few days.

Up until now my dh has been following my lead on trying to solve these problems.  I had a minor meltdown Wednesday as I think the pressure of finding a solution got to me. So we took the last few days to regroup, taking whatever measures were necessary for us both to get some sleep. We also bought Pantley's book and dh is also reading it so we can come up with a plan together.  This is important for us - we live in Canada and luckily have a system where parents can take up to a year off of work to be with a new baby.  DH has just started his portion of the leave and will be at home with ds for the next seven months (and I am back to work in the new year after five months off).

So we are starting from scratch.  Starting tonight, an earlier bedtime (8 versus 9) and a more stringent awake time (7 am versus whenever we can get him to sleep until).  We are also working on naps (as ds is a short napper).  Later in the week, we will recommence the Pantley Pull Out to start to rid him of the soother.

I can completely understand the need to go back to what works - especially this time of year. One thing that shocked my husband was the statistic in Pantlyey's book on success rates.  42% of her test cases achieved success (defined as sleeping for five hour stretches) in ten days; 53% in twenty days; 92% in sixty days. Although we all hope for the best, this could be a long haul!
Title: Questions
Post by: DakotasMama on December 21, 2004, 01:04:51 am
Hi there!  I'm on night 2 of Phase 1 with Pantleys Gentle Removal method and have some questions.  I have an 8 month old who I just got back to her own crib after co-sleeping for 3 weeks ( me needing sleep which turned into a habit that wasn't at all working as she woke every few hours).  Anyway, I have been nursing her when she wakes in my bed and than putting her back in her crib but that has not been working well so now I am nursing her in her rocking chair and putting her back in her crib.  She generally goes down for naps and bed without too much of a fuss on her own but the middle of the night is different, especially between 1 and 3 am.  After reading the info on gentle removal and the No crying sleep solution I have some questions.  After the removal (of the breast works) and I put her back to bed, she woke and I tried pu/pd for 45 mins and pat/shh but she didn't settle so I eventually picked her up and left the room for 10 minutes and she fell asleep in my arms.  The posting says to start the whole process all over again, from the bf or just the comforting?  I also did a dream feed for the first time before bed and her schedule (she wakes like clockwork) seemed to get thrown off a bit.  Anyone try this at 8 months?  Also, after I put her down after the gentle removal, do I leave the room and let her cry at all?  She would seem to almost settle and than look up at me and start all over again, not into a full cry, just an unsettled cry.  I am at the last resort, not wanting to let her cry it out (as we have already been through this and as much as it worked, it sucked!)  Any advice would be more than appreciated.  Thanks.
Dakota's sleep deprived MOM!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: katie6579 on December 22, 2004, 23:23:37 pm
Quote (selected)
katie- what are the removals like?
They are very very gentle, as in when the sucking is slow and relaxed then I carefully pull him off, but I think I'm still letting him fall asleep on the boob, it's so hard to tell that fine line between falling asleep and being asleep. He is very touchy so if I move him the wrong way or something those eyes pop open and we have to start over.  :(
Quote (selected)
as far as 30 min naps are concerned, the 'pantley' way to extend naps isn't working? what's happening when u try?
he wakes up pretty regularly after 30 min... I've tried staying until he wakes, I've tried going back in, and the second he stirs, I put a boob in his mouth. After about 10-15 min of that, he'll go back to sleep but for no more than 10 min.  :?
I'm doing the first 10-day log right now. He did have a nearly 2-hour nap yesterday, yay!! But i don't know why or how to replicate that. He still wakes 1-3 times at night, that has improved greatly since he's been in his crib, but I'm still bf-ing him back to sleep mostly and I'm wiped out.

Dakota's mom- you are so not alone. We are in phase 1 as well. (We had the same co-sleeping experience.) My understanding of the book is that there doesn't have to be any crying involved. Once she starts crying, you should go back to the previous phase, but since you're still on phase 1, just do whatever you were doing before to stop it. (obviously not CIO though...) Then do gentle removal again.

Isn't this fun????  :)
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on December 25, 2004, 22:19:49 pm
Hi Ladies!

Was I the only one that couldn’t access to this site the last days?! :shock: I could’t accede the forums last week and I also didn’t get any information about your posts in my email account! I’ve just received advertisements to Tracy’s new book... :x  So I’m sorry for disappearing but it wasn’t my fault!

About me and my dd... well what can I say... we lost it for a tooth! In my last posts she was going through a teething phase that ended with flu. If you add xmas preps and your tiredness from this all what do you get?! Not good night sleep for sure!

Well I also made a few changes to our routine. As I want to end bf as gently as possible so I decided to stop night bf. I took dd’s crib to our room so it would be easier to get to her and because it’s winter I don’t have to get out to the cold hallway.

But how would I convince dd that she couldn’t bf during night?!  :roll: First I tried to tell her that when it was dark I couldn’t bf her. That didn’t work because at 6am she is hungry and it’s still dark so I needed to bf and that confused her. So one night I got the answer! First the schedule:

Bedtime it’s between 7 and 8pm (still bf with gentle removal).  0am (first waking) but it’s just pat/shh. 3 or 4am (second waking) instead of bf I take her to my lap and just sat with her in my bed, talking and cuddling her. When she asks to bf I say why I can’t and give her some water instead. She eventually goes back to sleep but this can take between 15 minutes to 1 hour! She will wake up again around 6 and then I bf her immediately. Wake up time around 8:15

 :idea: The excuse that I use is this: she usually sees cartoons when she wakes in the morning while my dh dresses himself and the channel as a panda bear as a mascot. During night there are no cartoons so it’s just a still image of the panda bear. When she wakes up and asks to bf I turn on the tv and say to her “see? Panda is sleeping so I can’t bf you” believe it or not that works! At 5am the cartoons start again so when she wakes up around 6 I show her again and say “see? Panda woke up so mummy will bf”. The solution may not be perfect but works!

I won’t make this any longer.

Merry Christmas everyone!
Title: I think its getting better
Post by: DakotasMama on December 26, 2004, 13:22:55 pm
Hello, Merry Christmas!
Well, I just ordered the NO Crying Sleep Solution and waiting for it to come in the mail.  Things seem to be going better, 3 times a night now, using the gentle removal at each feed, and she goes back in her crib awake and puts herself back to sleep.  In the book, does it say to target one feeding at a time with the gentle removal or all at once?  I've been given some advice that I may have to pu/pd for each waking as she is 8 months old and probaly getting up out of habit but I am really hoping to avoid that.  I take care of all the sleeping stuff in my house as I am a stay at home Mom so that will be alot to do on my own but we'll see, it may come down to that if this removal plan doesn't work.  Hope you are all getting lots of sleep with the holidays and all!
Sherri-Lee
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 29, 2004, 01:17:56 am
i haven't gotten anything either, and just wanted to wish everyone happy holidays, and new year!

sandra- so glad to hear everything is going fairly smooth for you, and i hope you can end the with the slow weaning of bf from nighttime!

dakotasmom- in response to your last post, you are to do it at every waking (naps too if you can- if too much for you LO and naps are getting erratic and/or shorter, keep doing what you originaly did) and if she doesn't need a bf and you can get her down with just a cuddle (phase 2, i think.. little hazy n tired) then try that- you're one step closer that way!

short n sweet (for once) goin to bed- another tooth tryin to come up, and am TOO tired!!

sweet dreams everyone!
Title: Continue pu/pd while teething?
Post by: DakotasMama on December 30, 2004, 01:22:51 am
Hey there Mommies!
My 8 1/2 month old is teething, she already has her bottom 2 but I think she is actually cutting her eye teeth, they are hurting her alot more than the first 2.  Do I continue with pu/pd even though she is in this much pain?  Also, why I am having so much trouble putting her down to sleep and everyone else seems to be able to do it so much quicker (my husband, her grandparents).  Anyone else having trouble with this?  We've been up LOTS, every few hours since she's been cutting, poor little girl.  Hope your little ones are sleeping.
Dakota's Mom
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on December 31, 2004, 11:20:51 am
dakota's mom- i think that during the teething (or colds, separation anxiety, etc) you should give as much comfort as needed without too much upset to make it easier for your baby to get through and understand- once the 'hiccough' has passed, go back to original method and it shouldn't take too long to get back on track.  if you continue w/ pupd, why not make the pickups a little bit longer for extra comfort and decrease the time after the teeth have cut? might make things less stressful for both of you  :)  good luck- i''m in same boat at the moment!
Title: Thanks Betsy
Post by: DakotasMama on December 31, 2004, 17:39:41 pm
Thanks for your support.  Wow, it seems now that the middle of the night has gotten worse, I hope I don't have to start pu/pd after feeding her at night as she was more than happy to go back to her crib after each feeding but since doing pu/pd with her for her naps, I don't know.  Fun, fun!  Well, hope you have a happy new year.
Sherri-Lee
Dakota's Mom
Title: A pu/pd question
Post by: DakotasMama on January 02, 2005, 00:37:33 am
Hi Betsy,
I know this sort of question is normally posted on another board but I saw that you have a little one that is just a bit older than mine so thought you may have the answer.  Do you pu/pd or just patt/ssh?  I have been doing both but after about the 50th pu/pd, I end of holding one leg so she doesn't roll and just patt/shh.  Do you think that is ok?  She seems to get angry (of course as she can't really move)  but she just seems to be so overstimulated since she started crawling and standing up that she even has trouble "slowing down" in her crib.  I'm wondering if I should just let her continue to stand up on her own and than lay her down everytime and not pick her up out of the crib at all.  What do you think?  Any words of wisdom?  My husband wants to let her CIO and is skeptical of this whole procedure so I am praying this works or I don't know what else to do.  He is currently helping me with this as he knows how I feel about CIO so fingers crossed she learns quickly!  Thanks for your time.
Sherri-Lee
Dakota's Mom
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on January 07, 2005, 13:13:43 pm
i can't do pu/pd because at the moment i live with my inlaws :evil:  :evil:  and they can't seem to understand that babies DO cry and to let me be to sort out her night wakings! they come in and think something's 'terribly wrong' (after, say, 2 min of crying...) and then whisk her away and i can't really say much otherwise there will be a big fight, and they NEVER apologise... i'm moving to panama (thank god) at the end of the month, and will implement a combo of pu/pd, pat/shh & 'pantleys way' once i'm settled-- back to your question-- i do pat/shh and gently but firmly hold my lo's leg so she doesn't roll to her stomach (cuz then she crawls and algthough her mind wants to sleep, her body just won't listen! :shock: ) but do allow her to roll from side to side. tell me exactly what you're doing when you put her down, and for the wakings and i think we'll try and figure out a reason these methods seem to be taking too long to work for you and you LO-- i'm sure we can find a way out of CIO- and it's very good that your DH is helping you- it should make things much easier and faster for you! mine is out of the country AGAIN(.. for the last time finally!! he's setting up for us to join him) so he can't help... so tired! now it's teeth and bad cough so i'm DEFINATELY back at square one! sorry it took so long to reply to your email, been really busy.  good luck!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: DakotasMama on January 08, 2005, 14:22:31 pm
Hi again,
Sorry to hear that it has been tough for you but I'm sure you are looking forward to the end of the month.  Things are going much better and my husband is being incredibly supportive, he thinks this is working!!  He feels it is like CIO only with us in the room reasurring and I have to agree.  Well, I'm not doing pu at all anymore just patt/shh and keeping her from rolling.  When I put her down during the day she wants to explore her crib so I have been letting her and sometimes even leaving the room until she gives me a shout to come back in and than we start the process.  Normally about 15 minutes of crying and she is asleep.  Do you think it is ok to let them play for a bit first?  I want her to know that her crib is a safe place so that is why I have been letting her.  She is getting up ALOT at night but I think that is a result of her teething that I think she is finally over.  But she is still up every hour, maybe out of habit.  I am doing Pantleys Removal hoping she will fall out of this habit soon.  Before naps, she rubs her eyes, we do our bum change, sometimes massage or a cuddle, and than we go to her room, read a book if she doesn't push it away and walk around a few times singing.  Than we turn her fish mobile on and put her in her crib with her angel teddy.  She instantly stands up to explore so I let her for about 10 mins and than she cries for about 15 mins (sometimes more) until she settles.  Thats about it.  What do you think?  Well, Thanks for your time and hoping your little one is feeling better with the teeth and cough.  Have a great weekend!
Sherri-Lee
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on January 09, 2005, 00:25:22 am
Sherrie-Lee- i think that letting your lo explore n play is the best thing, because eventually she will do that to 'wind down' and self sooth her own way into sleep-- i think that if you keep it up, the crying time will lessen, and you can (refreing to my very first post) move on to later phases involving you on the side of her cot w'/no physical contact to you comforting just outside her room, to the door, to.. no more!! there is light at the end of the tunnel! as long as you are consistent, you will see progress, and hopefully sooner than you think! this leads me to another point, let me know what you think about it (btw, i apologise if you have mentioned previously, but  how old is you lo and how often if she waking?) : if you aren't having to do very many 'removals' at night, and you feel confident that you can be consistent for a week or so (less sleep for you, unfortunately) why don't you continue with your pat/shh method through the evening as well? i think you will find results much faster (some mothers in my babygroup did not take theirs out of the cot and offered water from cup/bottle and have sleepless nights- however, they did it 'do or die' style... no matter how upset baby got, they kept them there- i don't think that is necessary tho) and also see progress in the day as well. what do you think?

as for me, FINALLY the separation thing has passed, and i must say, that it has been THE BIIIGEST hurdle yet (as far as nights are concerned atleast!) and with the flu gone and the cough starting to subside, my lo, after several weeks, is AT LAST letting me comfort her w/out picking her up (only sometimes, but it's a start..again!) and she really seems more eager to settle herself, so hopefully i too will be waking less at night as well-- that is, until we go on a 9hour plane to miami next month then to panama and jetlag and who knows what else foils my plans again!! :roll:  it's ok tho, im TOOO excited!

sweet dreams everyone and good luck! :P
btw- is sandra, jennifer or frosty still around?

happy holidays to all, and to all a good night :shock:  :shock:
Title: Good for you little one!
Post by: DakotasMama on January 09, 2005, 21:53:15 pm
Hi Betsy!
Glad to hear things are going well again with Sienna and you are getting more rest!  Thanks again for getting back to me, I really appreciate the support and awesome Mommy advice.  Well, Dakota is 9 months old.  She goes to bed at 8, wakes at 11:30, 1:30, 3:30, 5:30 and than up for the day at about 7.  That was our last night anyway, the night before was every hour after 1:30.  I was slipping and not being consistent enough with Pantley's Removal so I woke my butt up last night and she did much better.  I am nursing her at night and in the morning but the rest of the day (3 feedings) she is on soy formula.  I just started reading NO cry Sleep solution and reread the removal part again so am hoping to go to Phase 2 quickly but do you think I should do Phase 1 for a little bit first?  Oh, my little one is up, tell me what you think, and thanks again for all your advice and support.
Happing Sleeping,
Sherri-Lee
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: BetsyAnh on January 10, 2005, 00:08:43 am
not a prob- ya know, we have, like, the same waking schedules! some nights are better (and worse) than others, as you probably know, but i think you should do whatever is least stessful for both of you and if sticking to the phases (doin 1 for a while..) is what seems right for the moment, then stick to it and let me know how it goes. where are you writing from? have you had to deal w/ the separation anxiery thing yet? good luck and sweet dreams!
Title: hello
Post by: DakotasMama on January 10, 2005, 22:26:28 pm
Hey there,
Well, I can't believe our little ones have the same schedule!  It's almost funny!  I am from Eastern Canada, a little island called PEI.  I keep meaning to put up Dakota's pic and all that info but all my pics are too big so the website won't except them.  Seperation anxiety, hmm, well to be honest not sure if we've been there or not because I did the whole CIO thing with her for about 3 weeks and than one day I had "enough" of listening to everyone else and stopped letting her CIO.  So, after all that she was more clingy at night but heh, I would be too if someone left me alone to CIO.  That is by far the worst mistake I made and everyone I talk to still say CIO is the only way they will ever sleep.  I even read a book on CIO, something close to Ferberizing, well anyone I don't want to have to go back to that ever.  PU/pd is hard enough sometimes as it feels like she is CIO.
So, have you ever tried subsituting water at night?  Someone just told me about that.  Last night felt long...she did the usual night but every time I would put her in her crib, she would have to resettle so it took even longer to get back to bed each time.  But she is doing really well and we are so proud of her.  Anyway, I am off to have a coffee as my husband is bathing Dakota.  Hope you had a good night last night.
Sherri-Lee
Title: update
Post by: joaquinsmom on January 11, 2005, 18:39:16 pm
Hello ladies!!

Glad to come back and report that we have made some progress.
I took a week off from work to go to the beach with dh, ds and my parents and spent New Year's there. I took that as an opportunity to sort out ds's naps and bedtime and tackle the nursing to sleep thing.

I watched ds very carefully for signs of tiredness (I noticed he gets very whiny and clingy and nothing holds his attention for long, plus he scratches his face and head) and when they happened, I immediately took him to our room (dimmed the lights when possible), lay on the bed with him and sang and talked softly to him until he fell asleep. The first few times were pretty awful. He cried and clawed at my shirt because he wanted to nurse, but I just kept reassuring him and patting his back or rubbing his tummy whenever he would let me. Also if he wanted to roll around a little on the bed I let him, cause I noticed when I tried to hold him in one place he got really angry!

Surprisingly, it didn't take too long for it to get easier. By the fourth or fifth time we did it, he cried a LOT less and even started doing this mantra cry to soothe himself.

Another thing I did was I stayed in the room with him when he napped (just out of his sight so he wouldn't get used to me being next to him all the time) so that if he started waking up too quickly, I could go to him and pat/sh to get him to continue his nap.

Coming back home we had to make some adjustments (including having a talk with mom and IL's to ask them not to rock, walk, or feed ds to sleep). Now we're at the point where his naps are longer than they were before and at bedtime he falls asleep pretty easily on this rug on the floor and we are in the process of puting him in his crib more awake each time (less time on the rug).

I am really happy about this, but the one bad part is that all our sleep problems led me to wean ds a little sooner than I wished. I realized that the fact that pretty much every time ds saw me he wanted to be attached to my breast immediately was making me really upset and stressed. At nights when it would take like 20 removals to take him off I was becoming really upset and even resenting him a little  :oops:  I feel really bad even writing this but it's the truth. So in order not to confuse him and to save my sanity and stop feeling like the only reason ds loved me was because I was his food source (crazy, I know) I stopped bf. He was already doing it only early in the morning and at night, so it wasn't that hard.

I hope you all are doing great and getting better sleep and will keep you posted on our transition to the crib (keep your fingers crossed for us!)
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on January 16, 2005, 21:13:23 pm
Hi ladies!

I know that I stoped writing but I didn't have any time :cry: !

Joana is sleeping very well now. She goes to bed between 19pm and 20pm and sleeps straight to 5am or 6am then bf and sleep agin until 8am or 9am.

She sometimes wakes around 2am or 3am but it's getting less frequently.

She changed her naps by herself now she just makes one 1h nap after lunch most of the days but I suppose it's because she has a better night sleep.

Somedays like yeasterday she naps for almost 3 hours! And still sleeps well at night!

I'm very pleased  :D  with the results so I don't want to wean her down anymore.

I'll try to write more often!

Good night sleep to everyone!

PS: Your kids are lovely in your new avatar's!
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: costinhas on January 16, 2005, 21:15:18 pm
Hi ladies!

I know that I stoped writing but I didn't have any time :cry: !

Joana is sleeping very well now. She goes to bed between 19pm and 20pm and sleeps straight to 5am or 6am then bf and sleep agin until 8am or 9am.

She sometimes wakes around 2am or 3am but it's getting less frequently.

She changed her naps by herself now she just makes one 1h nap after lunch most of the days but I suppose it's because she has a better night sleep.

Somedays like yeasterday she naps for almost 3 hours! And still sleeps well at night!

I'm very pleased  :D  with the results so I don't want to wean her down anymore.

I'll try to write more often!

Good night sleep to everyone!

PS: Your kids are lovely in your new avatar's!
Title: night wakings
Post by: momofBrev on March 01, 2005, 16:54:12 pm
I am new here, but my problems are very similar.  My son Brevin has just  turned 9 mo.  He was waking every night at 11 and 3, but only wanted to nurse at 3.  He goes to bed between 8 and 9 pm.  I have no problem getting him to bed, but recently, after waking at 11 and using pat/shh to clam him he is up every hour and a half or so especially between 1 and 5.  It seems he is just wanting me to hold his hand/comfort  he does not want to eat except at 3.  I am not sure weather to continue the 3 oclock feeds or if he is too old and should be sleeping through the night. Also I am wondering if I should go back to nursing at  the 11 wake up and see if it fixes the 1 to 5 thing, or is that a prop?  All I know is I have had it!  After calming him and getting back to my own bed, just as I am drifting off to sleep again he is crying, therefore I am getting no sleep!  I guess my actuall question is, is feeding him at 11 and 3 a prop or should I just go with it?
momofBrev
Title: 8 Month waking 2am
Post by: Michaela on March 21, 2005, 20:53:46 pm
Wow  :shock: ...... i don't feel so bad about my lo waking once at 2am.  Basically he's done it from day 1 and having brestfed until 5 months i did well in resisting him in feeding at the drop of a hat which paid off.  However, we have a pacifier which i know is detrimental of a night for him to go back off so i want rid.  We are classically 'accidental parenting' in putting the pacifier back in when he wakes. I've been removing it once he's asleep only i'm at the last hurdle and I really like the idea of this approach and found pu/pd as my last resort card but only if this continues.  Can i ask why don't you use the pu/pd technique? 

Keep going!

M
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: Erin (redstarfalling) on June 02, 2005, 20:26:59 pm
Just wondering if any of you posters are still around and still using this method and if so, with what sort of success?
Title: my 17 month old son
Post by: samuel'smom on June 29, 2005, 03:21:28 am
I've been trying the Pantley Gentle Removal technique for a while now but don't manage to stay awake for it some nights. My son still wakes about every 2 hours to nurse and I'm exhausted. Any suggestions?
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: Erin (redstarfalling) on June 29, 2005, 12:31:18 pm
I'm in the same boat, unfortunately! I try to stay awake most nights, but a couple of times I've woken up an hour later and she's still attached... :oops:  I know it's supposed to take a while, but it feels like I've been doing this forever, and instead of getting better, it's getting worse.  Last night she was waking every half hour - and that was in bed with me! :cry:
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: tomato on July 28, 2005, 09:33:13 am
hello betsy... what if my baby wants to wake up and play for a long period over an hour before she calls out that she wants to be put to sleep again?  normally i just pat her and sometimes i have to hold her but these days ,does not work
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: tomato on July 29, 2005, 08:37:09 am
what if she is waking every half hour to 45 min.  sitting up and half asleep?  i have to put her back down n pat her then before i know it, she is calling again.  what should i do?  certainly works if she wakes up once or twice at night but every 45m?
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: Erin (redstarfalling) on July 29, 2005, 12:40:13 pm
Are you going to her right away?  I found that I had to give it 5 minutes before going in - give her a chance to resettle herself.  If she's still fussing after 5 min (or if it REALLY escalates) I go in, but often, she'll quiet down in that time.  Otherwise, you run the risk of reinforcing the waking and she'll just expect you to BE there everytime she wakes.  How old is your lo?
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: plamb on August 30, 2005, 20:05:57 pm
I've implemented the paci removal and it actually works most of the time! Should it lead to no paci at all? I'd love to eliminate that prop- my near 5 month old still seems to have a very strong rooting and sucking need, unlike what I remember with my now 2 year old daughter. Any ideas on the crying or time line since I have a toddler in the next room- and their beds share the same wall? I have white noise, LOUD, in both rooms... but to have a baby fuss, fuss, fuss in night wakings then full-out cry, seems to take forever to get back to sleep unless I nurse her! I've repeated the steps, gone forward and backward but soothing with pats seems like it'll never happen after +2 weeks of trying. So far there have been NO improvements in the sleep or night wakenings. I'm hopeful, given the success of the paci removal, but with no more than a rare 3 hours-in-a-row sleep for me in 5 months, I'm exhausted and getting so short tempered and emotionally drained!
Title: help needed please
Post by: mikiweiser on September 08, 2005, 04:52:44 am
Hi...
I just joined since i am reaching my wits end.
my son is 1.7yrs old.
recently we have many changes taking place. the last week of august he slept at the grandmothers homes and on sept 1 we (1) moved into a new apartment (2) started a new day care.

before these changes my son had a great bed time routine. went to bed at 8pm and woke up at 6:30am. fell asleep with pacifer, he kicks it out and puts back in as he needs it at night - alone. and he still sleeps in a crib.

today he is scared to go to sleep. he is more vocal in words and tears about me going anywhere away from him.

this is his night time routine:
(he has a great day time routine with food and naps)
6:30 dinner
7:00 bath, massage, brushing teeth
7:30 quiet play
7:45 night light, lullaby music, rocking chair and books +BOTTLE
8:00 in bed and i continue to sit by him in the dark and sing (this is due to the fact that he became hysterical when placed in bed, by sitting next to him, he just lies down, calms and falls asleep)
11:00 wake up for bottle
03:00 wake up for bottle
06:00 wake up for bottle and moved to sleep in our bed with daddy ( i go to work)

i think that i have made a habit of using the bottle to calm him. he doesn't necessarily drink from it but he NEEDS it in his hug to fall asleep - and it has to be formula, if he sees it's just water he doesn't want it.
he does not fall asleep with the bottle in his mouth.
it seems to immediately pacify him.

at first i thought - with all the changes i shouldn't break him of something that makes him feel safe. but now i feel i am creating an unhealthy crutch that may also be dangerous for his health.

i got him into the bed routine by using the cry technique - it took 2 nights and only 20 minutes. so it seemed the right approach.
i am thinking of creating diluted formula as a way of weaning him off the bottle - but i think that he's waking up to check to see that i am there - and that the bottle is just like a security blanket, without it he can't fall asleep.

i'll shut up now and wait to hear from anyone who has advice that may help. THANKS.... and sweet dreams.
Miki
Title: Gentle Removal Plan
Post by: CaedensMama on October 27, 2005, 16:09:12 pm
I have read thru alot of these posts - not all though - and am trying to start doing this with Caeden.
I do really good during the day not nursing to sleep, but always nursed to sleep when he woke at night. Last week I tried for 3 days or so - at the peds advice - to stop nursing during the night and just hold, replace paci or whatever till he went back to sleep. This didn't go well, I got too upset at his cries and ended up leaking milk all over :oops: And finally went back to nursing when he woke.
Well now - he often will just nurse for a few minutes - 10 minutes and then not go back to sleep, but rather fuss till I put him down with his paci and let him fuss to sleep like he does during the day. Usually 5-10 minutes.
I don't want to let him CIO, but I have found leaving him to fuss is the quickest way he settles - day or night - pat/shush, PU/PD, even holding or rocking doesn't work.
So - what should I do? Do I keep nursing when he wakes and "wean" him off with the Gentle Removal Plan? Or do I just stop nursing and do what I can to get him back to sleep without it since he isn't always wanting to nurse anyway?
Just looking for some advice - I need to do something - and be consistent with it - right now I am not being consistent AT ALL and think this is part of his struggle in going back to sleep.
Thanks for any advice!