Post by: ZacsMumme on December 21, 2012, 01:23:54 am
I have some questions given I know NOTHING about FF an infant :o
First...if T is draining a bottle (120mls - 4ounces) does this mean I add an ounce for his next feed, or next feed of that time the next day ??? Sometimes he drains a bottle, others only 2/3... I'm trying to do 3 hrly or so but he hasn't gained weight in 4 weeks and seems hungry :D so I'm giving him a full bottle around 2hrs45mins if he wakes and seems hungry then Yk?
Is there a limit to how much he should have total? - he is on neocate gold.
I'm thinking of recording how much he has for a few days...good idea?
Tia :-*
Post by: *Kara* on December 21, 2012, 04:54:49 am
If he drains a bottle, add an ounce to his feeds... chances are he can go 3 hrs between feeds...
As for how much at each feed - it does really vary, but there are a few guides out there... one is 4 ozs by a month of age with a further ounce for each month of age (can be way off because of the variation in size of babies!)... the other is 2.5 ozs per pound of weight per 24 hours...
So, a 10lb baby would be about 25 ozs/day total :)
That said, some kids drink a tonne and others max out at less than the "recommended amount." Laura's kids maxed at 25 ozs a day (both were refluxers) but both were also 90th centile and maintained just fine! Mine is an average bubs (50th centile for weight as an infant) - she was taking around 24-26 ozs at T's age... If I remember right, her feeds were about 5 ozs each at this age...
I always spaced feeds to ensure she would drink her bottle completely (or very close)...
Other things to consider with FF:
1. time between feeds is often a bit more than with BF (we were at 3 hrs easily at 2-3 months) and moved seamlessly to 4 hrly at 3 months 3 weeks after 2 weeks of her not finishing her bottle and being fussy (took me that long to figure out that she wasn't hungry yet!).
2. some bubs need a burp every couple ounces, others don't at all until the end of the feed.
3. feeds should take a max of 20 mins (if taking too long, might need a faster teat :) ).
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 21, 2012, 07:40:21 am
He's hoovering them ATM :-\ poor thing hasn't gained weight in weeks :( ill try offering 5 ounces (or 150mls I thinks equiv here)
T is very long so he probably needs lots to fill him up ;)
I try to burp him through the bottle but he gets angry. So I'm using infacol to kelp make sure the burps come and have changed his bottle from avent to to tommee tippee closer to nature and he is taking in way less air.
Thank you :-*
Post by: Lolly on December 21, 2012, 08:13:16 am
He should be able to go 3 hours on formula. when DD was newborn and I was able to pump for a week or so she would go 3 hours on 3oz of formula but be starving at 2 hours on the dot on 3oz of breastmilk. If he is draining bottles though you need to incease them all as you never really know if they will want it or not, it can be a waste though.
I gave up burping my two mid bottle, they were both happier taking what they wanted down in one, if I stopped them that was it ::). There was a phase with DS when we sat very still covered in towels for a while after a feed though ;D. The neocate formula tends to be thinner than normal (but not sure about the gold!) so you may need to think about thickening it.
Laura
Post by: ENMS on December 21, 2012, 13:19:33 pm
I gave up burping my two mid bottle, they were both happier taking what they wanted down in one, if I stopped them that was it
Same here.
Don't worry about a limit - feed him as much as he wants, and eventually things may settle down.
Good luck xx
Post by: *Kara* on December 21, 2012, 20:01:47 pm
Post by: TB9 on December 21, 2012, 20:28:43 pm
We also couldn't stop mid feed to burp, she'd just get angry! We ended up with the playtex ventaire to keep gas at a minimum after trying lots of different types.
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 22, 2012, 22:06:57 pm
He is spilly, I picked up some var flow teats and he likes them :D burping ok BUT today I've noticed sometime the milk is seeping out down his chin from his mouth??? Latch? Or too fast flow? Or almost done? - it's near end of bottle.
What is a playex ventaire TB?
Post by: *Kara* on December 22, 2012, 22:26:02 pm
The little bit trickling out the side is super common when they are learning to use a new teat ;) I would give him a few days to adjust - FWIW, there were phases that DD would have the little trickle no matter what... sometimes, it would help to sit her up a bit more near the end of the bottle though ;)
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 22, 2012, 22:28:20 pm
Post by: *Kara* on December 22, 2012, 22:29:33 pm
Solution: cotton bib.
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 23, 2012, 08:29:30 am
So I have a problem, my boy doesn't really give good hunger cues, he never has. :-\ his reflux is a bit worse now too as he is actually getting/taking full feeds (which is great but makes it harder to know when he's hungry)
So...I'm kind of just offering on WU if he does a good nap and its been 3 hrs.
It's working ok but sometime I resettle after 40 mins then he does another 1.5 hrs. I prefer not to wake from his naps unless he's had long ones all day...but E then gets messed up.
Today we had (from last night)
2am NF 120mls/4o
7.30 between 120/150mls or 4/5o
10.30 120mls/4o
2.30 140mls/5o
6 150mls/5o
I was going to offer at 7 but he spills a lot now and he doesn't seem to want... He was spilling anda bit fluxy before Bt at 7. SO How can I fit in CF ??? Should I be trying more to offer at particular times? I'm just really going with the flow ATM while he gets used to it. Or should I flag it and try a DF, or none
Post by: Lolly on December 23, 2012, 08:56:43 am
You could try a DF but refluxers seem to do better without one - neither of mine would take it!
Laura
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 23, 2012, 18:41:17 pm
Post by: Lolly on December 23, 2012, 18:49:13 pm
Laura
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 23, 2012, 19:23:12 pm
Post by: ENMS on December 23, 2012, 19:57:58 pm
Not too bad??!! Mine were up between 10 and midnight and again about 4 hours later at that age!
Same here!
Good for you Sara ;D
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 23, 2012, 20:03:58 pm
Post by: ENMS on December 23, 2012, 20:05:23 pm
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 23, 2012, 20:11:23 pm
I guess I will have to make sure what is in them T can tolerate?
Post by: ENMS on December 23, 2012, 20:13:58 pm
I wish they could do the hypo allergenic formula thicker - most allergic LO's have reflux, would be so useful if they found a way to do that. ;)
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 23, 2012, 21:36:30 pm
Post by: *Kara* on December 23, 2012, 23:30:05 pm
Not too bad??!! Mine were up between 10 and midnight and again about 4 hours later at that age! ;D
Laura
Umm, yeah! Same here. T is doing great! Don't mess with it!
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 26, 2012, 03:29:25 am
I think we have wind issues though :-\ I'm using infacol in his bottle. The size 1 was taking forever and initially the var flow seemed good BUT now were struggling to get the wind up. Tried size 2 but still windy :-\ I'm not sure if reflux is at play or not but I'm struggling to keep his feeds more than 3 hrs apart and then because they are only 3 hrs apart he's only having 3oz or so ... I got him to have 4 after 3hr15 and a huge winding session between 3-4 ounces....
Any ideas to help with the wind? Or maybe better positioning for feeding? Last night he woke twice and had 4/5 oz feeds so I know he needs his day feeds spaced.
Post by: *Kara* on December 26, 2012, 04:17:42 am
I assume he is fairly upright, but maybe do lay him back a touch - DD always had more air when upright oddly enough...
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 27, 2012, 01:09:51 am
In meantime EAS is a MESS - I pretty much fed t to sleep (which i never do) then aped an hour and he's still asleep 2 hrs after that catching up :o
I 'think' once we come right he will be close to 5 oz/150 mls a feed and I know he can go longer than 3 hrs so maybe shoot for 3hrs15 or should I try for 3.5? - or keep going with the flow???
Btw - bottle prep is a pita!
Post by: ENMS on December 27, 2012, 01:18:19 am
I hope the new meds help with his reflux. Don't worry too much about EASY - once he's really fine it should go better.
Btw - bottle prep is a pita!
I know! :(
Post by: *Kara* on December 27, 2012, 04:23:54 am
I was really lucky that DD was fine with standard infant formula - concentrate makes life a whole lot easier!
Now that we use powder for the 2 small bottles she still has each day, I use warm tap water ;)
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 27, 2012, 06:53:27 am
Now that we use powder for the 2 small bottles she still has each day, I use warm tap water ;)I do this for Z too.
Ugh the cleaning and sterilising is a PITA too!
Thanks elise
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 27, 2012, 20:18:51 pm
This is us ...
Reflux flaring
Rubbish unsettled sleep
Taking more milk at feeds ??? Do I add an oz for every feed?
Post by: Lolly on December 27, 2012, 20:24:16 pm
Have you looked into thickeners yet - if he is refluxing that would be worth going for I think.
Laura
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 27, 2012, 20:48:31 pm
These are what we have here http://www.cryingoverspiltmilk.co.nz/food/thickeningagentsforreflux/ I was thinking of trying the karicare one if I need too?
Ill add another scoop for his next bottle - though he's due feed and sleep at same time now today ::)
Post by: Lolly on December 27, 2012, 21:40:44 pm
I would try the thickener, DD's cough improved once she was on the reflux formula.
Laura
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 27, 2012, 21:42:55 pm
I just fed on 3 hrs and he only took 3 oz ::) but I had too because he was due a sleep ??? Is top ups ok at this age during the transition?
Post by: Lolly on December 27, 2012, 21:44:52 pm
Laura
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 27, 2012, 21:51:24 pm
I know he can do 4 hrs he does this at least 1 day. I can't space then 4 hrly though or naps are messy. And i worry he wont get enough. I think ill try thickening tomorrow and only feeding at 3 hrs if he's due for a nap. Otherwise wait.
Oh and yes he was draining his first bottle and last night he did 2 NF not 1. 5 and 4 oz
Post by: *Kara* on December 27, 2012, 23:20:20 pm
I hadn't found BW at this age and DD was draining about 4-5 ozs every 3-4 hrs at this age.. I found that her times between feeds did vary a bit...
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 29, 2012, 00:01:13 am
Bought thickener yesterday but he can't get out out the teat! - was using var flow....ended up giving as gel first then feed. Think it's helping but can't do every feed this way. It's too messy ::) any tips to get the formula through the bottle or is it up to him to be able to manage it?
X
Post by: TB9 on December 29, 2012, 00:59:35 am
any tips to get the formula through the bottle or is it up to him to be able to manage it?
We had to start using the faster flow nipples when we switched to thickened formula. I started with the slow flow (not variable) and found that she had a much easier time when we switched to the faster flow.
I don't think I really got DD into a good EASY until she was 3 months...and even then she was so low sleep needs it ended up being EAEAS (with the second A being a little book and a diaper change :) ). I was fine with 2 Es before sleep because of the reflux it was better for her if I didn't try to stuff a ton of formula in her at once...and she slept much better with the top up before her naps ;) Moral of my long story: I wouldn't worry too much about it right now, I would just write down what kind of EAS he's got going for a week or so and see if there are any patterns. It might take awhile to get him into a regular sort of schedule or routine, since he may be catching up on eating right now!
Post by: ZacsMumme on December 29, 2012, 02:18:55 am
Post by: ENMS on December 29, 2012, 02:29:21 am
Post by: Canadian_Mom on January 01, 2013, 03:53:46 am
As well on the reflux board someone mentioned feeding them right when they woke up and that really helped us for a while with feeding after naps as I didn't have to fight him with those bottles!! As well they suggested feeding right before a nap when they were sleepy, but didn't work for us as it guaranteed a 30 min wake up with him covered in puke :P
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 01, 2013, 06:41:53 am
Ingredients
Pregelatinised maize starch, maltodextrin, locust bean gum
I reduced the amount so it just thickens slightly but he seems uncomfortable after all feeds with it. Ugh...
This arvo he wouldn't feed much at BT. :( now I know we wil have two NF amd probably wind boo. I'm going to go for feeding right on nap WU in his room if Z allow it. I think it may help reduce his air intake too.
Not sure if I need to go to another board but I don't think he's eating enough :( he is definitely gaining weight though, I can feel it when picking him up, he looks fuller in the tummy, faceetc YK? Today he only had approx 18oz (he had a NF at 2.45 last night with 5) - I'm using approx as we do mls here
Post by: Canadian_Mom on January 01, 2013, 10:20:44 am
What makes you think he isn't eating enough? I know that on is the lower side for total amount but what else makes you think he isn't getting enough?
Post by: ENMS on January 01, 2013, 13:27:40 pm
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 01, 2013, 18:39:40 pm
Thanks nadia, it definitely gives him a belly ache ::) sensitive gut! Ill lay off it for a few days and see if he improves.
Post by: *Kara* on January 02, 2013, 00:34:58 am
Laura's kids rarely went over 25 ozs/24 hrs and maintained 90th centiles ;)
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 02, 2013, 00:43:46 am
He's feeding better today too. Maybe because of the sore tummy he fed less :-\
Post by: *Kara* on January 02, 2013, 05:51:47 am
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 02, 2013, 07:44:01 am
http://www.cryingoverspiltmilk.co.nz/food/thickeningagentsforreflux/
Post by: Lolly on January 02, 2013, 08:34:57 am
I'll have a think!
Laura
Post by: *Kara* on January 02, 2013, 23:02:28 pm
Homemade Gel Thickener Recipe
One of our mom's was given this recipe at the children's hospital after a swallow study. This is a hypoallergenic and tasteless type of thickener. Xanthan gum is derived from corn, so if your baby has a confirmed corn allergy, this thickener may not be recommended. It does not add extra calories to the formula.
This recipe will make 64 ounces for about $5 and contains no preservatives. It is best to make 16 ounce batches at a time to maintain freshness, and it must be stored in the refrigerator. One tablespoon will thicken 4 ounces of formula to a nectar consistency, and two tablespoons will thicken it to a honey consistency.
Ingredients
2 tablespoons of xanthan gum powder (store in freezer)
16 ounces of water
Directions
Place the water in a blender and have it going when you add the xanthan gum. Blend until it reaches a gel consistency. Store it in the fridge.
This will produce a batch of gel thickener that you can mix into any drink. Depending on how thick you need the fluid will determine how much of the gel to use. For honey-like consistnecy add 1 tablespoon of gel per 2 ounces of liquid and shake. For nectar-like consistency add 1 tablespoon of gel per 4 ounces of fluid.
You can thicken ahead of time as the bottle will not continue to thicken as it does with cereal thickening.
The shaking to blend can trap air bubbles in the fluid and contribute to extra gas for your infant. If you suspect this, add Simethicone drops to each bottle. (Mylicon - found in any store)
* Xanthan gum can be purchased at many stores (gluten-free section) or online at http://www.barryfarm.com/thickeners.htm
**Each 4oz. bag should make 128 ounces of thickener.
Post by: Amanda5555 on January 03, 2013, 12:43:15 pm
Hope your appointment went well and T is gaining weight again!
I am very well versed here with similar struggles as you've described in your post. ((((((HUGS)))))))Hang in there take it day by day.
A couple of things that stand out to share from our experience......
B never seemed to feel full and his cries for hunger etc were very hard to decipher. He seemed to polish off whatever number of ounces we gave him and cry when the bottle was empty no matter what. We experimented alot and would add ounces to next feeds etc etc. In the end we had to try adding an ounce for following feeds but also had to learn how limit him based on the formula of 2-3 oz per pound per day. ( 3 oz in hot weather or if he seemed extra thirsty) If we over fed him it would make things worse as well so we really couldn't win. It was like we had to learn the impossible task of reading his mind arrrrgghhhh. No matter what we did (neocate, optimal reflux meds, motility agent, stool softner) there was no magic or marked improvement for us for any significant amount of time. Because B overate he was able to maintain his weight for the most part which was a good thing though.
Thickener for us was a good thing. We chose a xanthum gum based thickener simply thick. He seemed to feel better when he was able to keep more of his feeds inside and looking back now I think he was borderline dry. Not to the point of dehydration but close. He still had the absolute minimum number of wet diapers per day but it drastically improved when we started the thickener. I waited a long time to try it because I feared his tummy wouldn't handle it. He also seemed to poop much better with the thickener. We were forced to try thickener because he has dysphagia and the amount of rice cereal they wanted me to use to get it thick enough his tummy couldn't handle.
The other thing to mention is tongue tie. Make sure you have T checked well for tongue tie. In trying to figure poor B's trouble out one of the things we came across was tongue tie. Sometimes they are hard to see clearly if they are more at the back or buried. This website may be helpful and they may have someone near you if you were interested. B apparently doesn't have tongue tie but he does have some weird issues with his mouth movement and has dysphagia for and unknown reason.
http://milkmatters.org.uk/international-service-tongue-tie-talk/
B is calling so I have to go if I think of some more I will post again later :)
Tons of (((((((((HUGS))))))))
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 03, 2013, 22:49:14 pm
Amanda. YK your post struck a chord with me re TT T was checked at birth, we have seen a ped and my dr has seen him a few times and there has been no concern BUT last few weeks I have had a nigly feeling he could have a touch of TT. His tounge does look a little different, like it is pulled in a touch in the middle. We have his 12 week Imms next wed (late I know but were away next week) and I've asked him to see the dr to check specifically for it.
He also takes in ridiculous amounts of air sometimes, it's like he gulps it for fun ::)
Last two days E has been good though. I think 3hrs15 is working well. Today is/will be
E 2.45am (last night)
E 7.15
E 10.30
E 1.45 - planned
E 5
This is where it gets messy. Do I then just offer a TU at BT. I can't feed to close to BT or he is windy so would have to be 6/6.30?
Post by: *Kara* on January 03, 2013, 23:02:30 pm
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 03, 2013, 23:04:34 pm
Post by: Skadiver13 on January 03, 2013, 23:35:04 pm
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 04, 2013, 00:39:09 am
Unfort neocate is the only avail amino acid formula. I could no doubt get the other in but it wouldn't be funded :(
Overall things are getting better. Jenny (edsjanda) mentioned that her son just had an immature gut too so with all this it just took time to be 100%. I think T is similar :-\
Post by: Skadiver13 on January 04, 2013, 00:53:02 am
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 04, 2013, 01:07:41 am
Post by: *Kara* on January 04, 2013, 02:37:48 am
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 10, 2013, 00:59:13 am
Just wondering if I had another problem ie snacking, or another bit of a feeding strike from pain?
Post by: Skadiver13 on January 10, 2013, 01:13:31 am
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 10, 2013, 02:57:50 am
Sounds like flare up as result of GS right?
Post by: ENMS on January 10, 2013, 03:03:30 am
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 10, 2013, 06:41:43 am
We took him to a/h and they checked him. No infection but possibly a virus. His nappies aren't very wet :-\
after 4 hrs he took 2 oz :( will see how tonight goes.
Post by: ENMS on January 10, 2013, 13:04:15 pm
Hope T gets better soon Xx
Post by: Skadiver13 on January 10, 2013, 15:46:43 pm
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 10, 2013, 17:51:17 pm
Siobhan I keep thinking it can't be reflux then it must be reflux because this behaviour on the bottle is so diff to Zs on the breast. I think your right though. Pain meds seemed to help! We're on max losec dose already. :-\
Post by: Skadiver13 on January 10, 2013, 19:15:33 pm
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 10, 2013, 19:17:56 pm
Post by: *Kara* on January 10, 2013, 22:36:24 pm
Next step is Nexium here...