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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: lily_layne on April 27, 2013, 15:10:03 pm
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For the last few weeks, DD has been waking up 30 min after she goes to sleep almost every night (unless she rolls around for an hour before she drifts off - then she stays asleep ::)). At first, she would cry out quickly and go right back to sleep. She stopped self-settling after MIL watched her one night and went in and rocked her as soon as she cried out (no idea if this is a coincidence or if it really did undo our hard work :-\). Now she cries out quickly, rolls around, cries out again, rolls some more, and on it goes until she goes to sleep (anywhere from 30 to 90 min). If it's a very short cry, we don't go in. As soon as the crying gets intense we go in and try patting or stroking her back. She usually cries for a minute or 2 while I pat and then settles with the occasional head movement. On the good days she goes to sleep. On the bad days, she'll settle and seem to be sleeping and then start rolling around. We usually leave her once she starts making large movements. On occasion, we have tried rocking her to sleep which usually doesn't work. Sometimes she goes back to sleep on her own and sometimes with DH or I patting her back. Some nights the patting and stroking really seems to work and other nights it seems to interfere and make it worse. I end up totally confused about what to do and it seems like every night I do the wrong thing.
I'm fairly certain that she's OT by BT and that's the cause of the ENW. We are working on that with an earlier BT. In the meantime, I need help with a plan for dealing with this. Am I correct in thinking that our inconsistency (sometimes rocking her, sometimes picking her up, lack of persistence with patting) is part of the problem?
I would appreciate any advice or help to come up with a plan for how to deal with this tonight. After her first "I need you cry" should I keep patting until she's in a deep sleep or just until she's calm? Or is it time to try PU/PD or W2S?
The good news is that once she's asleep after the ENW, she STTN so I at least am fairly well-rested (although still very frustrated) by BT.
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Hmmm.. What's her day looking like? I agree that she might be OT at bt hence the waking after 30 min but I'm also thinking its developmental. Is she trying to crawl during the day? I'm wondering if she just practicing?
Wrt what to do, def pick one method for soothing. I'm all for not picking her up if you can and try to settle in the crib (but I guess that also depends on how upset she is). You can roll her over if shes on her tummy and she normally sleeps on her back. If patting/ rubbing her back works most of the time, then use that. I agree at this age, you can be interfering with SS so if this is what you sense, then just stand back for a minute or 2 and see if she can calm herself. If she doesn't calm herself then try rubbing again until she relaxes. If you can, just pat or rub until she's drowsy and she if she will take it from there.
I don't know if W2S will work since she's waking so soon after bt. I usually prefer patting or rubbing to Pu/Pd, unless your Lo is used to it. hTH
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I've been wondering if it's developmental also. My friend's LO who is a day younger has been doing the same thing. She has been working very hard a crawling for a while now - she hasn't quite caught on yet.
The first part of last night was better and it went downhill from there. I could tell that she was really restless and probably OT so I patted her until she was asleep and we didn't get the 30 m wake up :) But then she woke up at 10:40 (DH patted her), 3 (self-settled), and 4 (I patted her).
Our day yesterday was:
WU: 6:40 - She played on her own until 7:10
S: 9:30-11
S: 2-3:30 - She cried out and self-settled at 2:30
BT: Started at 7:20 and asleep at 7:40
That's a fairly typical day. After a lot of messing around, I've found that the am nap is best at 9:30/9:45 and I think the magic time for a good pm nap is around 2 even if it's a short A time. If I go for a longer A time, she almost always short naps - I think it's something to do with her biological clock that doesn't let her sleep much past 3. She's often taking a long nap (2h or more) in the am and I think that's because she's not well rested from going to bed too late.
Any suggestions about when we should do BT?
We've never done PU/PD so I think we'll stick with the patting. Until we're past the OT, would it make sense to pat her to sleep so she goes to sleep sooner and then once she's well rested just pat until drowsy?
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So today so far has been:
WU: 7:45 (I woke her)
S: 9:45-11:30
S: 2-2:45
So much for the "magic" time of 2 pm for getting a good nap :( I'm starting to feel like no matter what time I put her down in the pm, she only sleeps for 40-45 minutes. It seems she only takes a longer pm nap every 2-3 days and I think it's this short pm nap that's causing the ENW.
What BT should we aim for today?
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Sorry i couldnt post earlier... so here's my response to both of yours.
Ok, so today's 2nd nap wasn't the greatest. I'm finding that with my dd, I'm get lots of 45 min naps too :-\ so I'm deciding to put her down a bit later (between 2:30 and 2:45) and if she sleeps 45 min, then she can usually hang on until bt and if she sleeps longer (on the weekend) then that's great (during the week I have to wake her at 3:30 for the school run). May be try increasing her second A just a bit (15 min) and see how she does.
Any suggestions about when we should do BT?
I'm thinking that if she gets two decent naps then try for bt between 6:30 and 7 pm. Are you able to get her down earlier than that?
I also agree with patting until asleep while she's OT and then gradually withdraw it so she's self settling.
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Thanks for your quick response - I've been stressing myself out way too much about this and it helps to have another opinion! DH doesn't get EBT (he always thinks the answer is to keep DD up longer) but he totally accepted it today when I told him it wasn't my idea ;) He's in charge of bathing so even when I say I want to put her down early it hardly ever happens because he takes so long.
We started our wind down at 6:45 and DD was falling asleep while nursing which she hardly ever does. She was out cold by 6:50. My fingers are crossed that she stays asleep. It seems that it's the nights she drops off quickly that she's up and unsettled 30 min later. We've haven't had her asleep this early before - if she does wake up around 5/5:30 should I treat it as a NW?
45 min naps are a pain. I'd be happy with even an hour. It was a UT nap for sure - she was happy for about 2 hours and then was alternating between whiny and hyper. I think a big part of our problem is BT (we usually aim for asleep by 8) - I didn't really move it much earlier when we dropped the 3rd nap. The long morning naps are making me think she's not totally rested when she wakes up and those long naps put a wrench in the whole day by pushing the pm nap too late causing a short nap and OT by BT and on it goes... I'm thinking that an earlier BT and capping the long am nap should help, does that make any sense ???
What time do you usually do BT?
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She cried out quickly at 40 min, rolled around for 10 min and now she's asleep (although tossing and turning lots) ;D
I just had to post this little bit of progress so I remember it tomorrow if the rest of the night goes south!
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;D yay for self settling!
We've haven't had her asleep this early before - if she does wake up around 5/5:30 should I treat it as a NW?
I would. for me anything before 6 am is a nw and I'll feed her and just put her back in her crib. Pretty much every time she will go back to sleep.
I'm thinking that an earlier BT and capping the long am nap should help, does that make any sense ???
Bringing her BT forward makes a lot of sense. WRT to capping naps, personally I don't cap my DD's am nap but I usually end up waking her for the school run. I think it's worth a try for a few days to see if you can even out the naps across the day as well as bring her BT forward a bit so she's not OT.
What time do you usually do BT?
I try to get DD down between 7 and 7:30 although it does depend on when she wakes from her pm nap.
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Hugs honey.
All I want to say is YK all about our rubbish NW ;) and the long ones all started when T was trying to crawl. Damn babies too excited to sleep ::) :-* so I'm just her for support xx
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Thanks for the hugs, Sara. :-*
So EBT was a huge success! DD slept until 7 this morning. I thought I heard her playing at 4, but it was just birds outside (spring is finally starting to come :)) I can't thank you enough PM for giving me the courage to go for it (even though it's not all that early, it's early for us). I think with the effort to crawl she's burning so much energy that she needs shorter A times and I was just slow on the uptake, winding up with OT.
In a perfect world, our day would go like this:
WU: 7
S: 9:30-11
S: 2-3/3:30
What time do you ladies think would be a good BT? Should we be aiming for around 7, give or take a bit depending on naps? I'm fairly certain now that 7:45/8 was too late. I'm thinking that since there was an OT wake up with a 7 pm BT on a day with a short nap, it should work well on days with good naps but my brain is fried from thinking about this way too much so I appreciate any opinions you have to offer.
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Yay! I'm glad the early bt worked! ;D
Wrt bt, I aim for 7 plus minus 30 min depending on naps, etc. for my dd, I rarely get her down before 7 but there are nights that I try to.
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Another short pm nap so I had a very crabby girl on my hands from 5 until BT ::) It took some patting but she was asleep by 7 with a quick cry and ss at 7:40. If tomorrow goes the same, I know I need to put aside my fears of an EW and get her to bed even earlier.
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If she does wake early, do you think that if you feed her, she will go back to sleep? I do this with my dd however it does mess a little with the 4 hr feeding. I usually end up doing a slightly later first feed.
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She STTN again last night :) but was up a bit earlier than usual (6:20) and wasn't content to play in her crib so I got her at 6:40. She was pretty crabby so I put her down a bit early for her am nap. Next time, should I try putting her right back down after she eats if she's up a bit early and is crabby? I didn't treat it as an EW because it wasn't that much earlier than usual.
Our routine has always been ok (at least 1 good nap and 1 shorter nap per day) but I think she's gotten OT from the late BT and trying to stretch A times and it seems she's trying to catch up now because her A times are getting shorter. I'm hoping we get back on track soon.
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If I get an ew (or earlier than my liking) I will feed and put her back down. I figure if she's up, then I'll just have to deal with it but there's a chance she will sleep so I usually go for it.
I think a lot of Los at this age start to have one long and one shorter nap kinda in preparation for the 2-1 transition. Doing an EBT can minimize the OT while you slowly increase the a times again.
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Last night she was down for the count without a fight at 6:45. DH said she fussed at 7:15 and rolled over and was back asleep. Tonight it took a bit of patting to get her down but we haven't heard her at all. Yay for progress! Looking back, I'm feeling guilty for not starting her wind down until 7:30/7:45 - she must have been so tired, no wonder BT was a struggle.
She was up at 6 this morning and played quietly until 6:30. I went in and fed her when she began to cry and put her down in her crib but she didn't go back to sleep. Would it be worth trying feeding her right when she wakes up or would that create a bad habit?
I think a lot of Los at this age start to have one long and one shorter nap kinda in preparation for the 2-1 transition.
I didn't think of that. Would it be easier in the long run if I can get her pm nap to be the longer one?
Today she slept 2 hours in the pm ;D probably because she only had 2 catnaps in the morning because we went out. It does make me think that capping the am nap is the way to go. Today was:
WU: 6 but I didn't get her up until 7
S: 9:10-9:40
S: 12:15-12:30 (in the car)
S: 1:40-3:40
BT: Started at 6:55, asleep at 7:10
Based on that, how long do you think I should let her sleep for in the morning? I'm thinking 1h and then 3 hrs A until pm nap since she happily did 2h30 A from at 30 m nap but please let me know if you think I'm headed for disaster with a plan like that.
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Yay for the better bt! If she's SS then I normally don't worry too much about it. Now don't feel guilty about her previously late bt. :-* It's not like these bubs come with instruction manuals!
Wrt feeding in the early am and putting back to sleep, I usually go in sooner but then I also have dd in my DS' room so I don't want her to wake him. I do find this works best when she's waking up grumpy so if she's happy and chatty, it might not work (sorry about that).
Wrt nap duration. I know lots of moms cap the am nap in favour of a longer pm nap. I would follow your Los cues. If she's tending to have a short am nap, then this is the one I would try to keep short. An hour to 1 hr 15 is probably a good place to start with a 2 hr pm nap. With my DS, his am nap was better so I ended up moving his am nap later and later until his pm nap was dropped. Now a 3 hr nap is a monster nap! I'm not sure if I would let her sleep that long. I guess it would depend on if that nap will ruin bt or start to push it out too much.
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Another early start. Today she was up at 5:40 and then went back to sleep until 6:10. I got her up at 6:50. Should I try pushing BT just a touch later to see if we get a slightly later WU? In general, she does 11 hour nights unless she's really tired and then she might do 12. I hate when she's up early because then BT is earlier and on and on it goes...
Her am nap has been at 9:30/9:45 for the last 2 months. Should I move it earlier and let her sleep a bit longer on days she's up earlier or would that encourage the EW?
Her am nap has always been the better nap. Yesterday was just a one-off because we were out. I was thinking it would be easier for the 2-1 to have a longer pm nap, but since that rarely happens, I'm thinking capping the am nap in hopes of a longer pm nap might be risky. Your plan of pushing the am nap later sounds like it might work better for DD.
It's not like these bubs come with instruction manuals!
I would love it if they did! It feels like we've been off track for months and it doesn't seem to be getting better. Even with the earlier BT and 2-3 h of day sleep, DD still doesn't seem well-rested. She's often whiny and is rubbing her eyes like crazy after 1h30 A time.
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You could try a 7 pm bt if her naps were decent, maybe 7:15 at the latest and see how she does with the wu. My DS did 11 hr nights when he was a baby. Some bubs just won't do more than that consistently.
I don't have experience with the set naps so I will follow the A times and cues. I find that if my dd is up early and if she wasn't super happy, then I find she can't handle the full a and I end up reducing it by 10 min or so. She wil usually give me a good nap too since she's catching up.
I have also found with my son that his sleepy cues were not consistent once he was older. He would yawn and rub his eyes but he was actually bored! If she's only lasting 1.5 hrs, try changing up her activity to see how she does. You can keep it low key.
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He would yawn and rub his eyes but he was actually bored! If she's only lasting 1.5 hrs, try changing up her activity to see how she does.
That sounds like that could be what she's doing.
I find that if my dd is up early and if she wasn't super happy, then I find she can't handle the full a and I end up reducing it by 10 min or so. She wil usually give me a good nap too since she's catching up.
That's usually what I do also but I think I read on here that a long nap too soon can encourage the EW. Did that ever happen with your LOs?
Today she totally threw me for a loop. After a good am nap (1h50) she was whiny and miserable and rubbing her eyes like crazy after 1h30. I tried to keep it low key but she was miserable so I put her down after 2h15 and got an OT nap but I was able to APOP a bit at the end ::) She just seems so inconsistent lately - I get totally different nap lengths from the same A time.
I started BT a touch later but she was asleep quickly so she ended up asleep at the same time a last night so we'll see what tomorrow morning brings.
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Hun if she is teething that will mess up her A time signs too. :-\ is she teething?
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That's usually what I do also but I think I read on here that a long nap too soon can encourage the EW. Did that ever happen with your LOs?
Hmmm.... I was going to say no but yesterday my dd gave me a 2 hr am nap and then woke at 6 am. Of course her pm nap was horrible since it coincided with the school run and then we were out so I didn't get her down until really late. I'm feeding her now and will put her back down and see how the day goes.
Agree with Sara. If she's teething then things do get wonky, especially for the first few teeth. She may not be getting a restful sleep at night and then she's catching up during the day but is still overall OT. Does that make sense? If this is the case, I wouldn't cap any naps unless they are going to push out your bt. Try to keep a consistent bt of around 6:45 to 7 pm so she's going down earlier but not super early. If she wakes at 6 am, try to resettle (either by feeding or some other method) to try to get her to get more night time sleep. Just be mindful that if you feed, you may need to do a top up feed sometime during the first a, so she doesn't nap well.
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I'm pretty sure there is a tooth coming. Her cheeks are spotty and red and she threw up this morning which she does a lot when teething. She was up at 6:15 but she's happier and less clingy this morning so we're off to a better start today.
She may not be getting a restful sleep at night and then she's catching up during the day but is still overall OT. Does that make sense?
This makes total sense. I was wondering why she was waking up so miserable from an 11 hour night. That would also explain the short A after her morning nap.
I don't think I'll cap any naps until this tooth is through. We'll keep on with the 7 BT. I think for now, I just have to deal with the 6 am WU - she just doesn't seem to resettle (that said I don't try much beyond feeding and putting her down to see if she'll go back to sleep).
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After a few good nights we've gone downhill again. On Friday, she went to sleep with only 10 minutes of patting and didn't wake or cry out at all ;D Saturday took longer to get her to sleep and then she cried out after 30 min and needed resettling at 11. Sunday she took an hour to get to sleep and then cried out quite a few times through the night and needed resettling at 5. :(
I can see a tooth peeking through so I don't know if it was discomfort or OT.
Her day on Sunday was quite good:
WU: 6:30, get up at 7
S: 9:15-11
S: 2:10-3:40
BT: start at 7:10, asleep at 8:30
I wouldn't have thought 7:10 would be too late for BT with a long pm nap but I'm sure she was OT. Would it be worth trying an earlier BT even with a good pm nap?
How long should I leave her to try going to sleep on her own? I tried patting last night for 20 minutes but she just wanted to play so I let her be. She chatted and played for 45 minutes and then cried. DH went in and she went to sleep with a few minutes of patting. Is it worth leaving her on her own until she cries even if it takes ages? I'm torn between developing independent sleep or getting her to sleep quickly.
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Yay for some good nights! I would still keep her bt between 6:45 and 7 pm if at all possible. If she's teething, are you giving her anything for the pain? Cutting teeth can be quite painful for some bubs (for my DS, the cutting wasn't as bad as the teeth moving around in the jaw).
Wrt settling, I would recommend that you leave her until she's crying. Happy and chatting before bed, I would leave her be (as frustrating as that can be!). She needs to figure it out on her own.
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I do give her Tylenol when she seems in pain although it's hard to tell sometimes. I gave her some Sunday night but it didn't seem to help. I can't see the tooth today so it looks like it'll be a while yet before it breaks through. I think she's the same as your DS - the moving seems to be worse for her than the cutting.
She cried out half an hour after she went to sleep last night, then needed resettling at 8:30, and cried out and was awake for awhile around 3:30 but she self-settled. Another 6:15 wake up, so I think she really only got 10 hours of sleep last night.
Wrt settling, I would recommend that you leave her until she's crying. Happy and chatting before bed, I would leave her be (as frustrating as that can be!). She needs to figure it out on her own.
We'll do this tonight. Should we start BT a bit earlier because it will probably take longer for her to go to sleep?
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Teething sucks! Def start bt earlier to give her enough time to self settle. Hopefully things settle down for you.
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It feels like we're back at square one these past few nights :( I was so hopeful that the earlier BT would stop these shenanigans but I guess the answer is not so easy!
Last night she took 45 min to go to sleep (she cried on and off and I patted her at the end), cried out and self-settled at 8 and then cried and needed resettling at 8:40. She cried out at 3:30 and rolled around for a while and then went back to sleep.
Today our day was:
WU: 6:15, I got her at 7
S: 9:30-10:55
S: 2-3:55 (She cried out quite a few times - teething pain I think. I woke her).
BT: Start at 6:50 and asleep at 7:05. She woke up at 7:20, rolled and played, cried out once and then went to sleep at 8. I was soooo frustrated that she woke up but I'll take the small blessing of her going to back to sleep on her own. I was really tempted to go in and get her back to sleep as quick as possible but DH made me wait which I know was the right thing.
DH is sure she's UT, but I'm still leaning towards OT as she was rubbing her eyes like crazy from 6 onwards. I'm not totally sure though because she didn't cry out when she woke at 7:20 and she usually does if she's OT. What do you think? She's also coming up on a ww, could that be part of the problem?
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I wonder if she is UT too now she has caught up :-\ what a out stretching 1 A time? Teething is hard because it makes them seem tired and grouchy all.the.time ::)
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I wonder if she is UT too now she has caught up
That could be the case, especially since she's taken a longer pm nap the last few days. We used to be lucky to get 45 minutes and lately they've been at least 1 h. I think that grace period of good nights was totally her catching up from accumulated OT. I'm just so unsure if this is UT or OT because this is how she behaved when BT was at 8 (although I guess this time she didn't wake up crying and did go back to sleep on her own so maybe this is different???) so she was definitely OT then and because she usually starts showing tired signs at 6 or 6:30.
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So maybe keep the last A e se ad push theirst a touch? Hugs
PM what do you think?
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Hugs.
I would agree to increase the a earlier in the day but try to keep the last a consistent and if possible bt around 7 pm. Given that she's waking around 6 am, I wouldn't want to push her bt much later.
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After doing some reading, I think part of the problem with her short pm naps is that I've been putting her down too late for her biological clock so she didn't have the drive to sleep. Keeping that in mind, I've been working on set-ish nap times more than A times. The nap routine that seems to be working (fingers crossed that I don't jinx this ;)) is:
AM Nap: 9:15/9:30 (about 2h30 from when I get her up - I don't count the time playing on her own) - usually about 1h30. I did used to have it later (around 9:45) but that messed up the pm nap.
PM Nap: 1:45/2:10 (about 3 h) - has been lengthening the last few days, usually ending around 3:30
Her A time total has been about 9 h not counting the time awake before I get her in the am. I also think that I can't expect more than 11 hours from her at night - with the very odd exception, it's been ages since she's done a 12 hour night. Her WU used to be closer to 7, so in a perfect world, I'd have her asleep by 7:30 and up at 6:30.
Sunday night was terrible and she slept to 7:30 on Monday am and I put her down at 9:15 anyway and she still had a good nap so I think these times are working.
I've found after a lot of tweaking that if the am nap ends later than 11, the pm nap ends up being too late and we don't get a good one. However, this could all be coincidence since I've read that naps in post-colicky babies tend to lengthen as they get closer to 9 months so maybe we've just hit this stage.
Today was 6 am start but she played quietly on her own until 6:50. The 10 hour night makes me think she was OT but really ask me again in 10 minutes and I'll probably have a different answer :-\ Although she was happy and did fine until 9:20 she obviously wasn't rested from the night because I had to wake her at 11:20. I put her down for the pm nap at 2:10 and she's still down at 3 and I was expecting a short nap after such a long am one. If anyone happens to read this right away, what time should I wake her at to preserve BT?
So...all of that long-winded explanation brings me to my point:
I totally trust you ladies that an A increase might be needed but I am unsure of how to do it without messing up naps and she's been so much happier with 2 good naps. I'm also very nervous because by pushing A times a few weeks ago, I got her into a total mess :-[ If I increase the morning A time, should I then cap the nap to preserve the pm nap? Should I push the A time even with these earlier wake-ups in the hopes that it will get her sleeping a bit later in the am?
The last A has changed since her pm nap got longer. With the shorter naps, it was 4 or 4h30 and now its between 3 and 4 depending on how long it takes her to go to sleep. What A should I aim for?
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Go with your gut Hun, you know her best. I guess if you get good naps and she is happier with them and a short night that may be what works. My first needed good long naps and only did 10.5 hr nights till the 2-1 but it is what worked for him YK?
I agree WI pm, you don't want the day longer than 13 hrs :-*
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The 2 good naps a day thing is new. A long pm nap has usually only happened about half the time. I'm wondering if she's making up for lost night sleep during the day. She seems happiest on 14 hours of sleep so I'm thinking 3 hrs of naps and 11 hrs at night should work but it all works in theory, right? ;) The length of her am nap (she'll do 2h30 if I don't cap it) when she does a 10-10.5 hr night makes me think she needs more than that at night but if I we don't get 11 hour nights back, I'll just roll with this.
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I'll just roll with this.
Agree :). I think that some babies do better on set naps whereas others not. My DD I think is like this. She can nap until 5:30 pm and still want to go to bed by 7:30 whereas my DS would have protested ALOT!
By increasing A times, I would only increase by 10 to 15 min so at the moment, your set nap times will still work. See how that goes and then hold for a while as some developmental thing always happens.
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Last night DD got a fever so we had a long NW and she's still feverish so all bets are off today. Last night, I ended up nursing her for the first time in almost a month - she was just so warm and nothing else was working. Today she's only slept an hour and it's already 3 :o I just spent an hour rocking her after she woke up screaming from a half hour nap and she would settle for a few minutes and then wake up screaming again. Should I throw in a catnap if I can or just try a SEBT of 5:30 and hope for the best?
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oh poor thing! If this was me, I'd consider a CN (I hope i'm not too late in posting). Either way, when they are sick, I usually just try to follow their lead rather than trying to keep to A times and routine, etc. FX that tonight goes alright.
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I did go for a CN - got 15 minutes before she woke up screaming. Yesterday evening was miserable but then she STTN. She did only get about 9.5 hours last night though (only 11 hours sleep all of yesterday!) and she still has a bit of a fever today, so should I just let her sleep as long as she wants today?
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That's what I do. I figure if they are sick and have a fever, if they need to sleep, i let them. I go back to the usual routine when they can do some normal activities.
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Thanks for your quick reply but I didn't need it. She woke up after only an hour :( She woke up quietly and is still playing on her own so it seemed like a UT nap although I don't know how that can be possible after a day and night like yesterday. I really hope its the teeth and fever wreaking havoc otherwise I have no idea what's going on ??? Hopefully this afternoon will be a better nap. I'm going to try not to look at the clock and just put her down when she starts giving tired signs.
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I really hope its the teeth and fever wreaking havoc
boo for the short nap. Unfortunately both teeth and illness will create chaos. Better to go with the flow at times like these. Hoping you got a decent pm nap.
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She did 1.5 h for a pm nap so not too bad - not enough to catch up on lost sleep but there were no OT cry outs so I'll take it. We had a small victory at BT today. Last night DH and I talked and we agreed that we (mostly me) rush in too much in the name of getting her to sleep faster. So tonight, I mentally prepared myself for it to take a while for her fall asleep. I put her down at 6:15, put the video monitor in another room and only checked it every 15 min, and she fell asleep on her own sometime after 7 and there was no 30 min wake up ;D She still has a fever though so hopefully she has a good night's sleep - she needs it.
The last 2 days she was up at 6 again and I thought for sure she might sleep a bit longer because the one night she had a long NW with nursing and she was so tired last night. She's never been one to wake up at exactly the same time every day until now. Would W2S be worth a shot to see if I can get back the extra 30/45 min she used to do?
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Yeah for a better bt. It's good that she self settled.
W2S at 6 am.... Hmmm. You could try it. The only thing that I'd worry about is that it is technically morning and biologically she may wake up rather than sleep. I've read that we tend to sleep lighter in the morning. I take it you already have blackout blinds in her room?
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She was up at 6 again this morning but she rolled around a bit and went back to sleep at 6:20 and slept until 7:30! This makes me think this 6 am thing is more habitual than hunger or her being ready for the day but I am worried about the W2S backfiring because it's so close to morning. If this keeps up, I might take the risk because I just don't think she's rested enough when she's up at 6.
She's still feverish today but I can feel the edge of a tooth today so hopefully she'll be feeling better soon. She had a great nap this am on a short A so will see how the pm nap goes. I have no idea when to do BT given that she slept in - I think I'll just follow her cues.
I take it you already have blackout blinds in her room?
We do have blackout blinds and they're pretty good but they don't darken her room totally. I'm contemplating putting up tinfoil but DH doesn't want to because he's worried about what the neighbours will think.
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I agree, the 6 am wu may be habit.
Wrt the black out blinds, is there any possibility of hanging drapes as well over top? Some have the blackout lining. Probably will look better than tin foil and may add one extra bit of darkening especially in the mornings. This may help with the 6 am ew.
Wrt bt, if she is doing ok, I'd aim for 7 pm. She's still catching up on sleep and for a lot of kids, it's better to do this as a slightly earlier bt.
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She's up already from her pm nap. I figured this would happen since she had a long am one. She ended up sleeping 45 min so 7 will be the goal for BT but if she's fading fast, I'll try to get her down earlier.
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BT tonight was a total disaster. I am feeling so frustrated with this. It's gotten to the point where I dread BT :'(
Our day today was:
WU: 7:30
S: 9:45-11:30
S: 2-2:45 - UT because of the long am nap.
BT: Start at 6:30 - asleep at 8
I put her down at 6:30 and she played and rolled quietly for a bit and then fussed. I went in when the crying escalated and she stopped right away so I left - repeat a few times until she kept crying so I patted her. She would settle briefly and her head would come up and she alternated between crying and trying to play and pulling her ears and rubbing her eyes. I left after 15 minutes when she was calm and then had to repeat the whole process at 7:30. I left when she began rolling and playing and DH went in when she cried at 7:50. He patted her and she went bananas and would not calm down so he ended up rocking her.
Is there anything in our EASY that you see being a major problem? What's the best way to handle it when she takes this long to get to sleep? I know rocking is not the best strategy and the inconsistency is probably making things worse but we were both at the end of our ropes. Should we be trying PU/PD when she absolutely loses it? Was I right to leave her when she was trying to play or was calm or should I have kept patting?
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The day is too short, that's prob why she is fighting Bt. Even with a 45 min pm nap 11 hr day at 8 mths is really short given the good am nap YK? She's likely OT by the time she setted though ((hugs))
I really think her A needs to be increased :-\ 2.5 hrs is more 5 mths appropriate.
Here's some examples chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months
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I think you're bang on about the day being too short. She's come down with a case of roseola and had a fever the last few days which meant she wasn't sleeping well so I was kind of aiming for an EBT, hoping she'd catch up, and I was assuming it would take an hour for her to get to sleep like the night before, but it obviously didn't work. She was showing a lot of tired signs but she also did before her pm nap so I think they may have been habit more than actual tiredness.
Her A times are usually longer. The last few days have been way off because she's sick. Once she's feeling better, I'm going to try to extend them a touch.
Last night was ugly. She was crying out lots between 1 and 2 and patting wouldn't settle her so I nursed her and then I heard her playing at 3. She was up when I woke up at 6:30 so I'm assuming she was up at 6 again. She did an OT cry out in her am nap which she almost never does so I think I'm going to have to catch her up on sleep somehow.
I'm at a total loss about when to try BT tonight because nothing seems to work. At least DH is home tonight to help - maybe I'll leave the decision up to him.
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Sorry the 7 pm bt didn't work. It's so hard when they are sick to know what to so. I take it her fever is gone? May be keep her last A low key and aim for the usual bt for some consistency.
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Her fever's not quite gone but it's a lot lower today. She's entirely covered in a pink, spotty rash today so I think she has roseola. I'm going to take her to the doctor today. Not that I want my sweet pea to be uncomfortable but I hoped these awful BTs are discomfort because then there's hope that they will get better soon. She had 2 long naps today and BT was bit better. She went nuts again but calmed when I picked her up and I was able to pat her to sleep so the whole process was 30 min compared to an hour and half last night.
May be keep her last A low key and aim for the usual bt for some consistency.
Given that I'm at a total loss for what else to do, I like this idea. Would it be worth trying a longer wind down also?
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Poor thing! i hope her rash clears quickly and shes not too itchy or uncomfortable.
Hope I'm not replying too late. Wrt longer wind down, probably not a bad idea to extend the time you spend doing some things as long as she's good with it. I wouldn't introduce new things into the wind down.
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R was really tired today even with 2 long naps (2 hours each) so I was worried about BT but it went great! I started her wind down at 6:35, thinking she'd be asleep by 7. I sat and rocked and I was using that time to relax and prepare myself to be calm and patient if it was going to take a long time and I was so zoned out I accidentally rocked her to sleep. She cried out about 10 minutes after I put her down but I really listened and realized it was a mantra cry so I just waited. 10 minutes later she was back asleep ;D I'm a little worried about an extra early WU tomorrow - my fingers are crossed that she at least makes it to her usual 6 am.
I was going to have DH try W2S tomorrow since he's been getting up at 5 anyway but I might wait another day because she'll have been asleep longer than usual by then and I don't want it to backfire.
Today looked like:
WU: 6:20 - I got her at 6:40 when she started crying
S: 9:20-11:20
S: 2:10-4
Wind down: 6:35, S at 6:45
Based on this, I'm wondering if I was totally wrong in thinking she needs her last A to be the longest (she was doing 4 hours) or should I not base anything on today since she's been catching up from being sick?
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Wow! Great naps! Yay for the good bt. Fx that she doesn't wake before 6 (ideally 7). I think she's catching up so I wouldn't set your routine based on this. Plus, she's still sick.
But thinking back through the weeks, I'm wondering if a pattern is emerging where she's going through a cycle of later bt / fighting bt and then earlier bt when she's catching up. There's gotta be a happy medium in there wrt A times and nap times.
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I'm wondering if a pattern is emerging where she's going through a cycle of later bt / fighting bt and then earlier bt when she's catching up. There's gotta be a happy medium in there wrt A times and nap times.
I've been thinking this too. I think I'll have to wait until she's feeling better before I can find this elusive "magic" BT.
Last night she woke at 4 screaming like crazy. She would not settle so I ended up feeding her and then she was calm but it took her a while to settle back to sleep. Could she be genuinely hungry or should I work harder to settle her without nursing? Once she got back to sleep around 5, she slept to 7! She's an absolute bear this morning though and was still tired - she only managed 2 hours of A time.
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Could she be genuinely hungry or should I work harder to settle her without nursing?
I think at this age, they probably feel hunger in the middle of the night, in the same way that you or I feel hungry if you wake up. This doesn't mean that we go and make ourselves a sandwich though. I think it's pretty normal to feel hunger in the middle of the night however unlike young babies, I don't think that most babies this age "need" to be fed in the middle of the night, iykwim (assuming that they are eating properly during the day). I don't think that there are any issues with feeding an older baby in the middle of the night either (we all need to get some sleep and sometimes that's the easiest way to settle them) so it's more your preference as to how to handle the nw (I still feed my DD in the middle of the night but it's easier than having her disturb her bother's sleep also).
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I think at this age, they probably feel hunger in the middle of the night, in the same way that you or I feel hungry if you wake up. This doesn't mean that we go and make ourselves a sandwich though.
I got a good laugh from this because I often eat in the MOTN. DD did a spell of STTN at 4 mo and I was still getting up to eat :)
Your explanation makes sense. Feeding is definitely the quickest way to get her back to sleep. If she starts waking every night again, I'll rethink my strategy but for now, I won't worry about feeding her for NWs if she won't settle.
Tonight was our best night ever!!!! ;D I cuddled her until she was sucking her blanket and nice and calm, put her down, and walked away. She fussed a few times and was asleep in 10 minutes! No wake ups yet! Thank you so much for your advice. It's really helped me to know that if BT is terrible I can come on here, whine a bit and get some great advice and support. Without you, I'd probably still be in BT h*ll and it's nice to have someone to "talk" to about it, especially with DH gone every night.
The last few days, she's done best with a wind down at 6:40 and only 8h30 of A time in the day. It's a lot less A time than she had been having - I'm sure it will change once this tooth cuts and she's totally healthy but it's working for now so I'm happy. With luck, I'll get a few days of grace before I have to figure things out again.
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So glad I could help! Yay for the great bt! ;D
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BT may have been great but the night sure wasn't :( It seems like she just won't do a good BT and a good night.
She woke up with a quick cry out at 3 and spent a long time trying to get back to sleep. She broke out her loudest scream at 3:50 so I went in and tried to calm her. I tried rocking and patting and she would settle for a minute or so and then cry again so I finally fed her. I could've saved a half hour if I'd just fed her right off. She was still wiggly and seemed like she didn't want to be held so I put her down and she banged around in her crib until close to 5 :o I have no idea if this is UT or OT or teeth or a wonder week. Any guesses?
I woke her at 7:20 this morning to try to keep naps and BT at what she's used to but I may end up regretting it. She was ready for a nap after 1h50 so we'll see how the day goes. Should I am for BT a little later than 7 or keep it the same as the last few days?
The small silver lining is that she seems to have broken the 6 am WU habit.
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I forgot to ask, do you think I should cap her naps a bit today or just let her sleep and see if tonight is better before making changes?
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Just because I asked that question, she's up after only an hour :( I'll leave her a bit and hopefully she'll go back to sleep. I know the A time was short, but she was miserable and giving tired signs the whole time so I didn't think she was UT but I suppose it's possible :-\ I guess maybe I should've pushed her a bit to keep her up longer. Now our whole day's a mess :'(
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Hugs Lily. Sorry, I was out all afternoon due to my home inspection. Try not to stress too much if the first nap goes awry. In cases like this, I wouldn't cap a nap unless it's running really late in the day. Usually if my first nap is bad, then I hope for a better 2nd nap so that we can maintain a normal bt or do a slightly earlier bt (just a hair earlier). I'm thinking that your DD has some set biorhythms, so she's expecting BT to occur at a certain time rather than after her A time has elapsed (does that make sense?). I think this may be why the really early BTs didn't really work but she was waking early because that's what her body felt was right. Having said this, let's hope that her 6 am wu habit has been broken!
Ok, let's take a step back and see where we are at.
WRT WW, there is one at 37 weeks. Is she clingy and fussier than normal? Along the same lines, is she crawling yet? Sorry, can't recall. I'm wondering if she's starting to practice in her sleep again so that means to give her lots of opportunity to practice during the day.
Her fever is gone right? I guess she still has a rash but is that bothering her?
Also, has she cut her teeth yet?
I'm guessing her short morning A was due to the nw last night which may be in part due to hunger but may be also developmental stuff? I think she's around the age for a WW so that may be throwing a wrench into things.
I would start to increase her A times back up to where they were before (ie. 3 hr 15 or 20 min or so) as long as she's no longer sick. to address the teething, I'd either medicate prior to naps and BT if you think that she has discomfort. Due to the WW, you may need to be close to her while letting her practice crawling, etc. She'll need the reassurance of having you close by. Since she may have a WW and teeth / illness, I'd let her have 1.5 hrs of really active floor time but then end 30 - 40 min of calm activities so she isn't too wound up to nap well.
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Thank for your reply. I always feel so reassured after reading your responses.
This morning's nap turned out ok. She went back to sleep pretty quickly.
Today ended up like this:
WU: 7:20
S: 9 - 10:45
S: 2 - 4
From 6 on, she was rubbing her eyes a lot so I kept it very low key.
BT: I started at 7. She rolled around quietly and put herself to sleep at 7:40. So far there's been no cry out. Does that sound like UT?
She easily did the 3h15 A time in the pm. I'll work on stretching the am A time tomorrow.
I agree about the set biorhythms. I've found that her naps have to be in tune with them or she short naps and I think she's starting to be that same way at BT because I'm seeing tired signs at the same time every day so I need to get a routine going where BT lines up with that magic time.
One of her teeth has cut and the other is very close but her cheeks weren't rashy today. Her fever is gone and her pink leopard spots are fading.
She was super clingy last week and is pretty content the last few days so I'm not sure if she's done this ww or not. She's got her own unique version of crawling and she sure can boogie!
I agree the long NW might be mix of hunger, developmental and ww. I was reading an old post from last time this happened and as far as we could figure, it was the same thing then.
Your plan sounds good to me. I'll work on increasing the am A time and make sure she's getting lots of floor time followed by some mellow time. If I push the am A time, should I cap the nap so it doesn't push the rest of the day too late and get out of sync with her rhythms? What would be a good time to cap it at?
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She's got her own unique version of crawling and she sure can boogie!
lol!
She rolled around quietly and put herself to sleep at 7:40. So far there's been no cry out. Does that sound like UT?
I'm thinking that she may have given herself the proper A before BT and then SS. so not really UT. Having said that, I'd still aim for a BT between 7 and 7:30 just so you don't miss the window. With the calm A before bed, she might be alright with being in her crib and putting herself to sleep.
OK, I think this is what I would do for the naps. The afternoon nap was great so I'd aim to keep a 2-4 nap time in the afternoon. As you push out the morning A, I would aim to cap the nap so that you can preserve the afternoon nap time. Does that make sense?
Now the thing to keep in mind, longer term, is that she will eventually have to get to just one nap which means that her pm nap will occur earlier in the afternoon. Likely the am nap will occur after a shorter A time and capped quite a bit so that she's tired enough to nap mid-day.
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I'm thinking that she may have given herself the proper A before BT and then SS. so not really UT. Having said that, I'd still aim for a BT between 7 and 7:30 just so you don't miss the window.
I was thinking that too. Tonight was sort of the same. She only slept 15 min this am because we went out so she slept from 2:15-4:45 this afternoon. I put her in her crib at 7:05 when she was yawning and she rolled around and cried out a few times until 8 so I'm thinking it was a touch UT with the long pm nap. She STTN last night! I slept in a bit and she was up when I woke at 7:20 so I'm not sure when she got up but I don't think it was 6. Hopefully we'll get a repeat performance. I'll keep BT between 7 and 7:30 for sure.
I love the nap plan. I'll push her A out 10 minutes tomorrow.
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Yay for STTN and no ew! :D :D
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I pushed her morning A a bit this morning and ended up with an unsettled am nap :-\ Today ended up:
BT: 7
EW: I think she was up at 5 and played for a bit.
WU: 6:30 - I got her at 7
S: 9:30-11:15 - She woke at 10:30 and went back to sleep at 10:45
S: 2:30-4:30 - She cried out at 3:50
BT: Started at 7:10. She rolled around until 8:10 with only 1 quick cry out? She was rubbing her eyes lots during the wind down.
She has a bump on her gum and red cheeks so there's another tooth about to sprout. Should I just chalk the unsettled naps up to teeth (they caused a short one yesterday pm) and keep gently pushing the am A time? She was fussy in the am, but happy and active the rest of the day.
With BT, do you think that was UT, OT, the pm nap ending too late, or should I just not worry about it since she went to sleep on her own with no crying?
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Really not a bad day considering the teething. I'd hold these As for a few days and then bump them again. I'd think that the teeth are the main cause of the cry outs especially if you see the bump. Don't worry about bt, if he went down on her own without crying, then that's good.
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So I've somehow ended up with a very OT little girl (woke up screaming 30 min into her pm nap) and I'm not quite sure how we got here.
She woke up at 6 on Sunday morning so I'm thinking she was a bit OT by BT on Saturday but she had good naps and a great night so I'm not sure where we went off the rails. Our last 2 days were:
Sunday:
WU: 6 - I got her up at 7
S: 9:10-10:45
S: 2-3:45
BT: 6:55 - cry outs at 7:30 and between 5 and 6
Today:
WU: 7
S: 9:30-11
She was crying and crabby at 1:30 - In hindsight, I should've just put her down then.
S: 2:05-2:40 - She woke up crying hysterically and I ended up rocking her for half an hour. She would settle for a few minutes and then rub her eyes and wiggle. Now, she's yelling happily in her crib.
What time should I do BT?
We haven't had a 30 min OT nap with this much screaming in a while and I'm just not sure how she got so OT. Could it be from pushing her morning A time? I've only added 10 minutes but maybe this is a sign she's not ready ???
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Where is she at with teeth sweetie? As PM says 'considering teeth' they really can mess up sleep! ;)
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Hugs Lily. I'm surprised she's OT from 3 hrs 10 min and agree with Sara about the teeth. Is she done cutting her top teeth? I find my dd rubs her face a lot when the teeth are "moving" around. If you can I'd target the same bt but keep everything low key.
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It could be teeth. Her cheeks were really red when she woke up from her nap. I tried for a CN at 4:40 because she was yawning like crazy but she just rolled around. I'll keep everything low key and we'll start our wind down earlier in the hopes she's asleep by 7.
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After we tried the CN, she was totally mellow which was odd - usually she swings between hyper and crying after a short nap. I haven't seen her this quiet in days. She just sat and watched me cook and ate her supper without seeing how far she could chuck things!
You ladies have me thinking that it was more discomfort than OT. It could be teeth or it could be because she's a bit constipated. She also had some strange red dots on her face along with rashy cheeks - I popped over to the health and medical board to see if anyone knew what they could be.
I gave her advil for her teeth and we started our wind down at 6:15 and she finally just fell asleep at 7:20. I had to go in and pat her at one point but she did go to sleep on her own. We'll see what the night brings...
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With my first when teething he needed A times shorter and was cranky all day long ::) behaving tired when he wasnt because he is sore. With T he needs his A the same or cut a little but he will act tired so early. I I pd then he just protests and short naps ::) so I guess I'm just saying IMO teething does mess up their routine, tired signs and sleep lengths ::) :-*
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IMO teething does mess up their routine, tired signs and sleep lengths
That's good to know - I have to work at remembering that red cheeks=wonky day and quit blaming myself. Someone told me once that teething doesn't impact routine and night sleep and for some reason that little voice sticks in my head sometimes even though when I really think about it, I can't see how the pain of teething wouldn't affect sleep and behaviour.
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Another 30 minute nap this afternoon >:( This time she only cried out briefly (but it was intense) and now she's rolling around playing. Her cheeks weren't red today so I don't know if it's teeth or not. She was drooling like a maniac but now I'm thinking that may have been because she was tired ???
Today was:
WU: 6:30 and I got her at 7:55 (11hr night)
S: 9:15-11:15
S: 2:30-3
She was yawning when she woke up from her am nap but then there were no tired signs until she rubbed her eyes in our wind down. She was a bit fussy at 2 though (but was happy again when we changed activities), so maybe I missed the boat on that one? Should I try shortening her A time before the pm nap a bit tomorrow? Should I aim to have her asleep earlier than 7 since this is day 2 of a ridiculously short nap?
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Boo for the short nap!
Try keeping her at 3 hrs for the second A time tomorrow. Wrt bt, you can bump it earlier just a bit. I wouldn't do a super early bt since that didn't really work well previously.
The other thing too is making sure she gets enough physical activity during the first 1/2 to 2/3s of her A time so her body is tired. I had to do this with my DS otherwise he short napped on me even with the right a time. The final 1/3 of his a was really low key (mostly reading books, looking out the window, etc) so he would be ready to sleep.
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Thanks for the quick response.
I put her down just a touch earlier than last night (6:10) knowing she'd take a while to get to sleep but she's still rolling around over an hour later :o I went in when she cried at 6:40 and patted for 20 minutes and it seemed like she was about to drift off and then she picked her head up and wanted to play so I left. If I get an ugly nap tomorrow afternoon, should I just APOP a bit and rock her to sleep at BT so she doesn't get even more OT or will that set her back on IS at bedtime?
I'll work on keeping her active tomorrow and aim for 3 hrs for the second A.
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If I get an ugly nap tomorrow afternoon, should I just APOP a bit and rock her to sleep at BT so she doesn't get even more OT or will that set her back on IS at bedtime?
Yes, I would APOP the pm nap if she short naps. Oh, I was going to mention in my previous post that she may still be bothered by her teeth even though she doesn't have red cheeks. I've noticed that my dd had some teething signs for her first two teeth but now doesn't show the same symptoms. I guess they have to keep us on our toes ::)
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I was going to mention in my previous post that she may still be bothered by her teeth even though she doesn't have red cheeks.
That's good to know. We haven't had 30 min naps in ages - R doesn't usually do 30 min naps unless she's way OT. I've been thinking over the past few days and I think she's a bit short on sleep but not enough for the crazy short nap so i think it must be teeth or some other discomfort although I'm mystified as to why it only bothers her in the afternoon. You're right - it's probably just to keep me on my toes. I might try some Advil before her nap tomorrow to see if helps.
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30 and 35 min naps are often OS or discomfort here Hun xx
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DD threw me a curveball last night. For the past few nights she has been going to sleep on her own (taking anywhere from 10m-1h) but last night, she screamed as soon as I left. I went back in and stayed until she was calm and she screamed as soon as a I left. I went in again and patted until she was calm but I stayed in the room this time and she still started screaming. She eventually went to sleep with me stroking her back. She cut a tooth on Saturday and I think some are moving under the gums because she had red cheeks and a diaper rash yesterday. Could the crying be discomfort or does it sound more like SA? She did have short pm naps (45 min) for the past 3 days but I don't think she was OT enough for a performance like that because she was doing 11-12h nights and 1h30-2h am naps.
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Hmmm... I'm guessing discomfort since she still screamed when you were there. It's sooo hard to tell! I wish they could just tell us what's wrong. Did you give her meds before bt? Of course for bad teething even meds sometimes won't numb the pain enough :-\.
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I didn't give her any meds. In hindsight, I should have. Tonight I gave her some Hyland's teething tablets. She's rolling around and playing but no screaming so that's an improvement. Can SA happen only infrequently or would it be the same behaviour for a few nights in a row?
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My dd is having some SA right now and it's been going on for a while now :-\. I see it during the day though. Just walking out of a room to go grab stuff she starts to cry :(. Naps are worse than bt but then she likes bt ::).
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If she has just cut 1 I bet there is another about to pop, they usually come in 2s ::)
Like PM usually with sa I've seen it during the day too.
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It must have been teeth then because I haven't really seen any signs of SA during the day. She's usually quite content to play on her own and today I left her with my ILs for an hour and she was fine (except for the part where they both assaulted her with pretty much every toy she owns ::)).
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Last night, R woke up screaming 40 min after she went to sleep and I ended up having to pick her up to calm her down. Once she was calm, I put her down and patted her for 20 minutes. She would settle for a minute or 2 and then move around. I finally gave up in frustration after 40 minutes and she cried out and went to sleep. I think I was making it harder for her to fall asleep. It threw me for a loop because Monday night, she went insane any time I left so I was anticipating last night would be the same. Any wise words on how to know when to stay and when to leave?
Tonight she rolled around a bit and went to sleep on her own but it took her 40 minutes so I'm sure she was UT. She's done this a few times and has gone to sleep on her own after 30-50 min. Is it ok to put her down at around the same time each night even if she's UT and leave her to it or is it eventually going to cause problems?
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Boo for the cry out!
Any wise words on how to know when to stay and when to leave?
This gets tricky and you almost have to do Wi/WO because they have figured out how to self settle. I leave the room (while shh ing) and see how she does. If crying escalates, then I go in otherwise I leave her. You also have to be certain of what their mantra cry sounds like so that you aren't there if they mantra but are if they need you. Always so tricky.
Is it ok to put her down at around the same time each night even if she's UT and leave her to it or is it eventually going to cause problems?
I think it's reasonable for it to take them 20-30 min to fall asleep. Longer then I start to worry a bit. If you know the standard bt is too early I'd bump it out by 15 min or so. May be a few extra cuddles, stories or lullabies. I also find this time of year hard because the days are so long, it's like they know it's still daytime (especially where you are! I recall it seemed like the sky didn't really get black in Saskatoon in the summer months)