BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Sjbc1019 on June 04, 2013, 00:25:32 am
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Hi
Our 7 month old just started staying up 4 hours before her first nap so we are trying to transition and figure out her new nap schedule so she's not going to bed at9 or 9:30. Basically meaning if she naps over an hour for her first nap we try to get her to short nap by putting her down undertired. Anyhow, with that we are trying to figure out her awake time then after a short 2nd nap and I think since we are unsure that is why we are getting the wake up after the initial put down. We don't know when to put her down so are unsure if she is waking from overtired or undertired.
For the most part we have been putting her down at 3 hrs and she wakes 25-45 minutes into sleep crying. We have been nursing or shush patting her back and she is usually down soon after. However, tonight she didn't fall asleep with either and ended up just laying after our attempts then finally falling asleep on her own. I think tonight she was undertired. She has two 45 min naps today (both I thought she could have been undertired). The other nights her 2nd nap have been 30 mins or less and those nights I can see that she needs to be put down much less than 3 hours.
Any insight you have is appreciated. Once down she typically sleeps for 5-6 hour stretches waking up only once to feed.
Thanks
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Wow, those are really long A times for her age. She's doing a routine that would be geared more toward a 10-12mo old. My guess would be that shes definitely OT in the waking after BT. Has she always had such high A times? I think I've replied to you before on a different board and I don't remember her having an A time that was that far off the average for her age. :-\. Were you doing 3-3.5hr A and she was fighting it, or how did they get so high? They may be right for her, I just haven't seen many 7mo olds with a 4hr A time.
As for the A time after a short nap in the afternoon, I'd try too keep it around 2.5hr. What does your EASY typically look like?
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I know 4 hrs is long- it's not by choice. I think she has had a longer awake time than average for awhile but we have just figured it out in the last couple of months. We increased awake base on short naps, fighting nap, waking after short nap happy and chilling in crib and waking during the night chilling for up to an hour at a time. Based on previous moderator recommendations these are the reasons we have been playing arou d with increasing activity. The 4 hrs just started in the last several days. Our easy sun-tue
Sun
Awake-7:16
E-7:35-7:45
A-7:45-11:14
S-11:14-12:30
E-12:37-12:50
A-12:50-3:30
E-3:30-3:35
S-3:35-3:58 (nursed to sleep and did it earlier so we could do normal bedtime)
A-3:58-6:43
E-6:43-6:56
S-6:56-7:29, then woke 32 mins after, nurse back to sleep and slept for over 6 hours.
Mon
Wake-7:20
E-7:40
A-7:50-11:18
S-11:18-12:00
E-12:10-12:25
A-12:25-3:22
S-3:22-4:06
E-4:11-4:21
A-4:21-6:50
E-6:50-7
S-7-7:24
Woke after 23 minutes chilling in crib then crying. Nursed and shush pat, finally left in crib where she chilled for 10-25 mins then fell asleep for 51/2 hours until waking.
Tues
Awake 8:48( she woke at 5:45 chilling then fussing and I fed her and she slept then for nearly 3 hours. She was up for about 45 mins chilling and fussing)
E-8:68-9:06
A-9:06-2:49
E-2:54-3:01
A-3:01-6:45
E-6:45-7:00
S-7:10
She needed a couple of mins of shush at but didn't wake up and has been sleeping now for over an hour. As you can see we only did one nap today because she woke so late and had a long nap and we didn't want her to go to bed too late.
She has been crying out randomly in sleep more lately but she is asleep or can settle herself in a couple of mins at most.
Thanks for your help.
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Just wanted to give an update. She slept 6 hours, nursed, then 4 1/2, the woke chilling and fussing in crib at 6. I let her lay for about 10 mins b/c it looked like she was tired and might go back to bed. 6 is early for her. Went in and nursed her for 20 mins and she fell back asleep and is now sleeping at 9:06, nearly 2 1/2 hours later. This is the second day she has woke chilling and little fussing in crib early then. Used and gone back to sleep until close to or after 9 (or nearly3 hrs after early wake and nurse). What could be causing this?
Thanks
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We increased awake base on short naps, fighting nap, waking after short nap happy and chilling in crib and waking during the night chilling for up to an hour at a time.
I do think that all of these can be indicators of OT as well, unfortunately. They are more typical of UT, but depending on temperament, she may do all of these things and be OT. Some babies wake happy and some wake upset no matter what.
What happens when you put her down for a nap at 3-3.5hr? Does she fight it, does she wake mid-nap? Short naps can be very developmental from around 3/4/5mo-6/7mo. Both my kids did them and would have kept doing them even if I pushed the A time quite far. I'm just wondering if that might have happened with you or if she's really just a high A time girl. It's possible that the A time has just gotten so high that she's crashing and sleeping through. :-\
I don't see where the nap happened on Tues. You said it was just a one nap day because it was a long one. Could you re-post that for me, please?
Is she a completely independent sleeper? I do think that wake-up after BT is due to OT, and I'm wondering why you're nursing her then, as she's just eaten before BT and it's only been 30min or so. Will she not easily go back down with shh/pat? Even if she was 10-12mo and doing this routine, I would suggest keeping the last A time to around 2-2.5hr, as she's had so much A time already in the day and not a restorative nap (one of at least 1.5hr).
I hope this isn't coming across like I'm thinking you're doing it wrong, I'm really not meaning it to be that way and I don't want to discourage you. :-[ I just haven't come across a 7mo old with a routine like this before, so want to try to get a clearer picture of what's happening.
Oh... posting the same time as you.
What could be causing this?
Honestly, I think she's OT and trying to catch up on sleep. There may be a bit of a nursing prop, but I'm wondering if she just isn't able to get herself back to sleep, because of the OT hormones in her body.
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Hi
Thanks- her Tuesday nap was from 12:57-2:49, 1 hr 52 mins. The longest before we're 1 hr15/20.
When we were doing 3.5 hrs she was waking around 28-45 mins happy and chilling in crib.
Do you think I should give 3.5 hrs a try for a few days to see what happens or keep the 4 hrs?
We usually shush pat to sleep if she wakes after bedtime early. Last night she slept through for 6 hrs.
When she sleeps in like yesterday and today should I almost treat that as a nap? Last night she was only up for 10 hrs (8:45-7) but only had one nap. She is still sleeping at 9:20 and we definitely want her to go to bed earlier than that. What do you advise? Also, when she wakes at 6 like is morning should I have just turned on the lights and started the day?
Thanks for your help. We just can't seem to figure it out!
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I misspoke- sorry. All of this is blurring.
Below are the wake and 1st nap awake to give you a better sense.
May 21
Wake 6:56
S-10:22-11:39
May 22
Wake 8:33
S-11:54-1:04
May 23
Wake 8:27
S-11:51-12:18
May 24
Wake 7:39
S-11:11-12:12
May 25
Wake 6:34
S-10:16-10:49
May 26
Wake 7:14
S-10:48
May 27
Wake 7:11
S-10:49-11:26
May 28
Wake 8:18
S-11:51-12:18
May 29
Wake 6:52
S-10:34-11:34
May 30
Wake 6:56
S-10:44-11:14
May 31
Wake 7:57
S-11:55-12:58
Thanks
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When we were doing 3.5 hrs she was waking around 28-45 mins happy and chilling in crib.
Do you think I should give 3.5 hrs a try for a few days to see what happens or keep the 4 hrs?
For how long were you at 3.5hr? From what I can see in the times posted above, except for yesterday there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference in the nap lengths at 3.5hr A and 4hr A. I went back and read through your last couple threads and a month ago you were working at consistently doing a 3hr A time. That's a big jump in just a month, so I'm wondering if she maybe just didn't have enough time to settle in at 3.5hr. :-\. It's really up to you what you want to do, but I do think the long A times are making her OT and causing the early NW and the EW. Lucky enough, she's going back to sleep with nursing and then making up for the lost sleep in the morning. If it were me, I'd go back to 3.5hr A time and set it more or less for a full week or two to see if she doesn't even out a bit. So, do 3.5hr A first thing and again after a nap of 1hr+, but cut the next A back to 2.5-3hr if she does a short first nap.
As for the early wake, if she's had less than 2hr day sleep and she wakes in under 12hr night sleep, I'd definitely just feed her and let her go back to sleep. No need to keep her up at that time when her body wants to catch up on sleep. I wouldn't however, let her chat and fuss for 30-45min and then feed her as that will be like a mini nap to her body. At some point, you will want to start waking her within a 30-45min range, so you can help her to set her clock a bit more (just like you'll be trying to do with the naps).
What do you think?
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Sorry for the late reply. We started the 3.5 awake yesterday and we had to shush pat for both naps. She was happy then once we started nap routine she was crying. We put her down crying and let her cry then for 5 minutes before shush patting for about 5 minutes. We are putting her down when she shows no sleepy signs( yawns, eye rub, etc but I understand those aren't reliable all the time and for some babies that show them it might be overtired at that point). However, for the most part nap routine is pretty peaceful and if she fusses it is only for a couple of mins then she puts herself to sleep. We hardly ever have to shush pat so having her scream and doing shush pat yesterday was not ideal. She also woke from both naps crying which she never did before- she always woke happy and chilled in crib which is why we thought we should increase. After the 2nd nap of 40 mins shewasreLly crying and usually when I go in she stops but she cried for 10 minutes off and on even while nursing. She seems like she wanted to sleep more and seems tired. After 10 mins she was fine and happy. Bedtime- we put her to bed at 2 hrs 40 because it was 7. We felt putting her down earlier she would think it was nap time (she did this last week). She slept 25 mins then woke really crying. We let her cry for 5 mins then went in for shush pat. We did that for 15 mins and she was so upset so I finally nursed her back to sleep. In total she was up then for 35 minutes before settling for the night. We thought it might be that we put her down at 7 but lately she has been going to bed around 8 so maybe her body was not tired enough? Her naps yesterday:
3 hrs 37 mins awake- 1 hr3 min nap
3 hrs 30 min awake- 44 min nap
Shush pat to get down, crying when she woke for both naps
Sleep- 2 hrs 43- woke after 25 mins screaming, back to sleep 35 mins later for 4 hrs45 mins until wake for feed. She then woke at 6:25 which is a bit early for her- she use to wake around 7-7:30.
Today I held her and hummed and chilled starting at3 hrs5 mins so I could watch her. She was starting to get fussy so thought she might be getting tired. She showed no signs of tired when I held her but she stopped being fussy. Did nap routine at 3 hrs40 and she started crying, put her down crying and let her cry for a couple of mins then picked up and did shush pat in crib for a few minutes. She fell asleep at 3 hrs45.
for a couple of mins then picked up and did shush pat in crib for a few minutes. She woke after 28 minutes quietly and chilled in crib for 20 minutes with a few seconds of fussing but generally just hanging out.
I put her down for nap 2 at 2:55 and she was a little fussy during routine and I put her down fussing/crying but I did see one yawn. She fussed for 3 minutes then put herself to bed. So happy with this since the last several naps have been shush pat. Anyow, put her down at 3 hrs since she short napped. She woke happy and chilling again after 30 minutes.
For her last nap I put her down at 2hrs45 by nursing for 5 mins then put her in crib drowsy but awake. I did this because I needed her to nap as her last nap ended at 2 and there was no way she could make it to bedtime. She slept for 30 mins- there was a bad thunderstorm so I think the thunder might have woken her. For bedtime we put her down at 1 hr 50/55 and she was drowsy nursing so I put her down and she cried and screamed. Gave her 5-8 mins to see if she could settle then went in and shush patted. She seemed angry but quickly calmed and seemed tired. She went down shortly after shush pat and now has been sleeping for 1 hr35 without waking after 1st cycle which she has been doing. Again- she has been going down around 8 or later so maybe her body is not tired at 7:15 when we put her down?
I am so confused- part of me thinks she is overtired at 3 hrs30 and the other part thinks undertired. I am even wondering if I should try 3 hrs15 as that seems a bit more normal for 7 months and I feel we are so all over the place. With 3hrs 30 I am not sure if she is under or over tired but I am pretty sure 3 hrs-3hr15 she should be undertired and not overtired.
Thanks so much for your help.
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Hmm, she's a tricky one, isn't she? I'm a bit confused as well! If you think she'd be UT at 3-3:15 A, then I wouldn't go back there. I'd hold to 3.5hr for several days (a week or two) and see if she doesn't start to even out.
As for putting her down, I would not give her 5min of crying before you go to her. Tracy strongly advised that even leaving a baby for 5min can break her trust. If she's doing a mantra cry or moaning, then yes, leave her until she needs you, but if she's genuinely crying, respond to that cry and help her to settle.
Are you ever able to resettle naps? The A times are definitely long enough, if she only does a 30-45min nap, can you shh/pat her back to sleep? Obviously, if she wakes and isn't crying that won't work, but at that point I'd just leave her and see if she'll go back on her own. If she wakes and is crying, I'd go in and try to resettle.
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Hi
Sorry I have been away and wanted to update you and ask for guidance once again. We were out of town and while we were out our LO started teething (looks like 3-4 upper teeth). She was up almost hourly to every couple of hours during vacation. I think her being in a dated pack in play of my MIL did not help with the waking. As you can imagine she was tired during the day so we put her down in crib at around 3 hrs although on vacation she would cry so I would nurse her to sleep but regardless in crib around 3 hrs. We had been trying 3.5 hrs in the last post but that was not proving to be working either. Anyhow, at 3 hrs nursed to sleep she for the most part slept 1hr15 mins which is 2 sleep cycles for her.
We have been back now for about a week and her night wakings are better- only twice for the last several nights. I don't think her teeth are what's waking her now although it might contribute. We started skipping the 3rd nap if her last nap ends around 3 and trying to put her down as early as 6pm. With that she was getting decent sleep at night so I think she was not as tired as she was during vacation. When I tried putting her down at 3 hrs she screamed and cried then gave 30 some minute naps. She also was not showing sleepy cues. I started extending her awake to about 3 hrs 15 and she starts showing yawns or eye rubs. The last 2 days she has fussed for a few minutes then put herself to sleep and her naps have been 35, 45, and 52 minutes. She wakes kind of fussing but happy when I get her. I am thinking she is now undertired for the first nap now that she is not having as many night wakings as she did during vacation. The thing that is throwing me off is:
She usually wakes happy and no crying or fussing butshe has been waking that way lately
It takes her so far about4-10 mins to go to sleep when it use to take a lot less
The other issue is about the second nap. The last couple of days it has been 45 and 52 min naps. I do not know when to put her down for the second nap. Yesterday and today have been bad. Yesterday her nap was 25 mins and today was xxxxxxx. She cried and screamed today and I finally nursed to calm her then shush patted her for a minute or two. Yesterday she was up 3hrs20 and gave 25 minnap and today she was up for 3 hrs 45/50I assume overtired for both. Today I saw her rubbing er eyes and yawned twice at 2hrs50 but when I put her down she was screaming. I picked her up and chilled with her until I nursed and shush patted to sleep. I guess I am confused because I don't know what her awake time should be for her first nap so I know you cut awake for second if short first nap but don't even know what to cut from. I try looking for sleepy cues and its so hard. Yesterday she has none and I just put her down because I figured she had to be tired. Today she had them at 2 hrs50 but then screamed and cried when I put down. Finally down at 3hr45/50 and slept for 23 minutes woke up crying but happy as can be when I got her.
For night we changed her bedtime routine because she has been falling asleep at boo so we moved feeding to earlier. She cried for 7 minutes then fell asleep for about 25 minutes. We put her down at 2 hrs55 because the last several nights after short naps we tried putting her down earlier but she just wouldn't have it so she was staying up for 3hrs15-30 but then would sleep for 4-5 hours rather than waking up after 30-40 minutes. Anyhow, she woke after 25 ins and we have been shush patting and calming down for 20 minutes. I assume again overtired. Again- I do not know when we should be putting her down for the night after only short naps. When we try to put down at 2-2 1/2 hoursshe does not want to sleep. Nursing to sleep does not even work.
Eas the last several days
Fri
Wu 7:01
S-10:08-10:40
S-1:42-2:57
S- 6:34-10:43 first stretch
Sat
Wu7:33
S-10:21-10:48
S-1:52-2:17
S-4:47-5:15
S-8:28-12:25 first stretch
Sun
Wu 7:34
S- 10:52-11:37
S-2:54-3:21
S-6:30-6:56, back asleep with shush pat 7:29-11:40
Mon
Wu 7
S- 10:16-11:08
S-2:52-3:14
S-6:19-6:44, shush patting now for over30 minutes, lots of crying
She just turned 8 months yesterday. I am so confused because I can't figure out naps and without knowing proper awake I can't get bedtime figured out either. Should I go back to 3 hrs awake for first nap even though she does ot have sleepy cues? They see to come later. Or is she ut for first nap and getting ot through day?
Please help!
Thanks
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Or is she ut for first nap and getting ot through day?
Yep, I think this is what's happening. Before you left for vacation, you thought that 3-3:15 A would give you an UT nap and that's what you're getting. I'm sure the 3hr worked on vacation because she was up a lot more and night and teething, both of which make babies more tired. But, now she's sleeping better nights and the 3hr isn't enough.
I would push that first A to 3.5hr and hold there for several days. If she sleeps at least an hr, I'd do another 3-3.5hr (you'll have to experiment here a little bit, as some LOs can last a full A time after an hrs nap, but not all). Have you tried resettling naps? If she is UT at that first one, it may not work, but if she then takes another short one, I'd think you'd be able to resettle that one, so you don't have to do a 3rd nap and end up with such a late BT.
Is she still working on some teeth? That could be a reason for her waking less happy. A lot of times SA can go along with teething at this age.
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What do Ido if she sleeps less than an hour for her first nap?
Also, yesterday she napped a total of 1 hr (2 30 min naps) and we tried to do a nursing catnap at 2.5 hrs but she would not have it. She ended up going to sleep at 3 hrs40 mins- we put her down awake and she fussed but put herself to sleep in about 5-8 mins for 4 hours rather than waking up at 30 mins and needing shush pat to go back. We were surprised as we were curtained she was way overtired (just by hours up- not sleepy cues. She just started rubbing eyes when we were doing bedtime routine). This is not the first time this has happened. The last couple of weeks even if she has short naps and even short naps for 2nd nap we try to put her down at 2-2.5 hrs and she does not want it. She will nurse then want to play. I chill with her quietly then put her down awake and she will put herself to sleep. We figured she would be so tired by the end of the day but she seems to want to stay awake for 3plus hours even after terrible naps. Is she just exhausted so a ,e to stay up and sleep through for 4 hours or is this the correct time for her To go to bed? Yesterday she woke from 2nd nap at 2:25 and put herself to sleep at 6:04. We had tried to catnap but she was not having it. We thought 5:30 was too early for bed and she showed is she wasn't ready either by staying up for 3 hrs 40!
I am going to try 3.5 today and will keep you posted. It's nice to have a second opinion.
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What do Ido if she sleeps less than an hour for her first nap?
I'd try for an A time of somewhere in the ball park of 2.5-3hr. It's hard to know as all babies are different and it takes some trial and error. From the routines you posted the other day, I'd say she'd probably do best with around 2.75-3hr.
Is she just exhausted so a ,e to stay up and sleep through for 4 hours or is this the correct time for her To go to bed?
It's hard to know. With my DD, I knew that sometimes she just needed to be in the right part of her biorhythm to go to sleep. I'm not sure exactly how to describe it, but even if she was exhausted and I knew she should be ready to go down earlier, sometimes I just knew it wasn't going to happen until her body was ready to turn off. Despite our best efforts, sometimes there's just nothing more we can do. :-\
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First nap down at 3hrs21- was giving her time to fall asleep but she fell asleep on a minute. Peaceful going to sleep but woke after 33 minutes. I didnt want to put her down at 3hrs30 in case it took a nit to gall asleep and she got overtired. Pm nap-Put her down around 3 hrs for next nap by watching sleepy cues and it took about 10 mins to fall asleep but again it was quiet and peaceful. She slept 32 minutes. For bed we went off of what she did the night before even though she had only two 30 some minnaps. We put her down around 3 hrs 30 and it took her about 5-7 mins to fall asleep again peaceful. She has been asleep for 2 1/2 hours which is Greg vs the waking up after 25-40 mins for shush pat.
I will put her down closer to 3hrs30 for am nap. I do think teeth are bothering her some.
It just seems crazy that after such short naps she can stay up so long but this is day 2 of the short naps and long awake (3hrs30 or more) where she has put herself to sleep and not woken up for shush pat. Do you think her pm nap should be closer to 3 hrs30 too even if she short naps? She wakes pretty happy for naps, first was a little fussing but then happy.
Thanks for your help.
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Hi hon... sorry it took a while to reply.
When she wakes after 30-35min, you can't get her back to sleep at all? If she's waking decently happy, have you tried to just leave her?
Do you think her pm nap should be closer to 3 hrs30 too even if she short naps?
You could try it. It seems really long, my DD and DS weren't able to do 3.5hr after a 30min nap until they were closer to 18mo, but all LOs are different.
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Hi
I don't usually try to put her back to sleep. I let her hang in her crib for awhile or until she cries. Lately she has been waking up a lttle fussy for a few minutes then happy chilling in crib. For am nap we have been doing around 3.5 hours. She is going down peaceful and puts herself to sleep usually within 5 minutes. Yesterday she 1 hour after 3 hrs24 awake. Today she was awake for 3 hrs 33 and she slept for 33 minutes. Yesterday we tried to put her down before we knew she was tired because of timing. We tried to put her down at 3 hrs30 but she cried and screamed so we shush patted and she fell asleep at 3hrs50 and slept for about 22-23 minutes. We tried to put her down earlier because she has been doing 3.5 hrs at the end of the day and her bedtime would have been after 8. In the end we put her down for the night at 7:42, 3hrs35 mins and we knew she was a bit overtired. She woke after 44 minutes then took 10 mins of fussing and put herself back to sleep but woke 2 more times during the night and woke at 6:15 when she normally sleeps until 7am.
Today, she did a 33 min nap and for the 2nd nap I watch sleepy cues and thought if she can stay up 3.5 hrs at end of night with short naps maybe she can stay up that long for pm nap. She went down pretty peaceful, a little fussing but put herself to sleep in 5 mins but woke 24/25 mins later. I went in and tried to nurse her back to sleep as I would have fed her after the np but thought she might be tired but she was happy and smiling and wide awake. Her pm nap she went down at 3 hrs30.
So her last nap today was at 2:20. We kept her up until almost 6 which she seemed tired but not completely overtired. She put herself to sleep in just a few minutes with little fussing. She woke after 34 minutes and i went in to nurse her back to sleep as she only nursed dor a couple of minutes before bed. she was awake when i put her back down. In a situation like this where she short naps- do we try for catnap and put her to bed way later or keep her up a little longer than she should be to do an earlier bedtime having to combat overtired. We did the latter since she woke at 6:15 this am and had less than an hour of sleep but we are never sure what is the best thing. Especially since it seems she can have a long awake time after short naps. 2:20 for the last nap though is so early- we call it no mans land when she wakes at times like that because its either put her to bed early but maybe overtired or late and do catnap. Anything before 6pm bedtime seems too earlier- what do you think?
We have tried short awake times after sort am naps (2.53hrs) but they produce same results. We have also tried short awake from short pm nap to bedtime (2 hrs-3hrs) which had her waking after one cycle or when I would nurse as the final step of routine she nursed briefly them wanted to play until after 3 hr awake.
I will continue the 3.5 for the am and am still trying to figure out pm naps. Have tried 3 hrs and 3 hr30 and the nap times are not that different.
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Anything before 6pm bedtime seems too earlier- what do you think?
Yeah, I never really went before 6pm (maybe 5:45 a couple times, but 6 was usually my cutoff). I guess I usually favor doing the shorter day rather than another catnap, even if she is a bit OT at BT. It looks to me like 3.5hr after the short nap is too much if she's waking around the 22-25min mark. If stick with closer to 3hr.
Do you think it's a problem of her transitioning at all? Has she mostly done 30ish min naps in her life? I'm asking because there doesn't seem to be a lot of connection in A times, so I'm wondering if there's a different issue. Would it be worth it to you to try to resettle her for a good week or so to see if you can get her sleeping longer? She goes down independently at the start, right? Is she possibly overstimulated, is it too light in her room, will she sleep a longer nap if APd (like in the stroller, carrier, or car)?
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Part of the reason we have been doing the 3.5 after short am nap is to buy us more time (since her naps are 30 mins or so if we can hold her off 30 mins we can do a 6pm bedtime and only have her awake 3.5 hrs at the end of the day rather than 4 hours. also- she does not show sleepy signs at 3 hrs. We have tried putting her down at 3 hrs and it produce about 30 min naps as well. Finally, she really seems to go down well and independently at the end of the day at around 3 hrs30. We have tried lots of variations of 2-3.5 hrs awake at last stretch and she goes down the best at around 3hrs15/30.
The last several days we have been putting her down at 3 hrs30 and it takes her less than 5 mins with little fussing to put herself to sleep. I read books and walk around the house with her at around 3hrs15 then do routine. It's pretty peaceful putting her down. For pm nap we have been doing 3hrs30 again mainly to compensate for her short naps so we can do bedtime at 6 rather than 5:30. She goes down well for this to. She wakes from nap with a little fussing for a couple of minutes then hangs out and plays in crib. Once we get her she is happy and playful. She does not seem sleepy. I have tried the last couple of days to nurse her back to sleep after she wakes up from pm nap and keep room dark and sound machines on but she is wide awake and wanting to play. I put her down at 3 hrs once this week and got a 30 some minute nap.
She has been putting herself to sleep at night and it is peaceful and takes 10 mins or less. this is great as we use to nurse to sleep. also for the most part she is able to do a decent 3-4 hour stretch after being put down when she use to always wake up after 30-40 minutes then need shush pat to go to sleep so i feel like the longer awake has helped with night even though she is still waking multiple times. She had been waking twice a night (use to be once but after vacay we are trying to get back on track). She is teething (three upper just broke through for the most part and another one is about to) and so last night she woke up 4 times- a couple of time after 45 mins then her longest stretch was 3 1/2 hrs). I definitely think her teeth are bothering her. Maybe this is effecting naps too? She also has just learned in the last weeks to get on all fours and is trying to crawl and can now pull herself up. Even though she is waking more since we are putting her down so early she is still getting for the most part 10.5-11 hours. She did use to wake at 7am and lately has been waking at 6-6:15am.
With the awake, I feel like how well so goes down for naps should be considered and maybe she is short napping due to teething? I want to try 3 hrs for pm nap but not sure how to handle the rest of the day if she wakes after 30 mins. Example from yesterday- wakes from am nap at 10:40, nap 3 hrs later at 1:40, wakes 30 mins later taking us to 2:10. She woke at 6:15am so when would we put her down for bed?
Thanks for your help.
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Sorry- forgot to answer a few questions. She has always had issues with naps I think if we get awake time right she sleeps well- 1 hr15 mins is two cycles for her. I know she can sleep long- she's not just a short mapper unless this is a phase. We have had a lot of trouble figuring out her awake time but think we are in the ballpark now. She seems to be able to transition for naps. It is crazy but she will be asleep then suddenly she just pops up and wants to play. Not drowsy or anything- usually happy except this last couple of weeks where she wakes fussing a little for a few mins then is happy. She has been like this since she was little.
Her room is dark- black out shades and we have sound machines going. I try to have 15 mins of more chill activity before naps and have pretty much kept the same routine for a long time.
Eve if I hold her now she will likely only sleep 30 mins or so. She has only ever slept 30-35 mins in car or stroller so we only try to use them if we need her to catnap.
I am thinking these short naps are developmental or teething..... She is going down good so I feel like we are putting her down at the right time- the naps are just short!
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It sure is possible the naps are short due to developmental reasons and/or teething. Have you tried giving any meds before naps or BT?
It is crazy but she will be asleep then suddenly she just pops up and wants to play. Not drowsy or anything-
I've heard that this is a good indicator of overstimulation, but it sounds like you're doing the right things in terms of some quiet A time before sleeps. You might want to drop the book reading before naps, as that can be quite stimulating at this age, but if you've had good naps with that before it may not be an issue. Have you tried just leaving her for a good 30-45min to see if she will eventually fall back to sleep or does she end up getting upset enought that you need to get her?
I want to try 3 hrs for pm nap but not sure how to handle the rest of the day if she wakes after 30 mins. Example from yesterday- wakes from am nap at 10:40, nap 3 hrs later at 1:40, wakes 30 mins later taking us to 2:10. She woke at 6:15am so when would we put her down for bed?
Yeah, that's tough. I'd probably put her down at 6pm in that example, or try to squeeze in another CN around 4:30pm and do a 7pm BT. But, my kids always went down for bed on a short A time after CNs, so that may not work for you. :-\
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Hi
Our LO is now waking 3-4 times a night (sometimes after 30-40 mins after being put down). I do think some of it is teething but think it probably has to do with ot or ut as well. I just cannot figure out the awake. The last several days I have tried 3hrs40ish and she definitely has longer naps. One day 1hr5 mins and yesterday 38 mins but I think I put her down too soon as she fell asleep more around 3hrs35 mins. She is going down well for naps with usually a little fussing but puts herself to sleep in under 10 mins at most. She wakes usually with a little fussing for a minute or two then gets happy and roams around in crib. I let her stay in crib until she starts fussing again. I have tried leaving her after naps and in the past she would cry and put herself to sleep. Sometimes it would take up to 20 mins and others just a few. These days she doesn't seem to be able to do that.
Today she was crying out around 6 and my husband went in around 6:10 to try to shush pat and it looked like she was sleeping although she kept crying out and trying to get comfortable. Anyhow, we picked her up around 6:30 then for the day but I do not know when she really woke as she was crying and moving around for awhile. I used the first time of 6ish as my gauge and put her down and she put herself to sleep at around 3hrs40. However, I don't know if she was only up for 3hrs and some if she really slept until 6:15-6:30. She fussed for a min or two, had some yawns and seemed tired. She slept for 45 mins and woke up happy and chilling in crib. No crying. Should we keep the 3hrs40-45? We did3 hrs30 for awhile and it kept producing short naps.
The other question is about the next awake time for her 2nd nap the bedtime. She seems to be able to stay up for over 3 hrs (3hrs-3hrs15) and sometime we get decent naps and other times short naps. At bedtime she will sleep for a couple of hours and make the transition and other days wakes up after30-40 mins screaming and needing shush pat. It can take her 20 mins or so to settle her- she seems angry. Is she ot or ut? She has been doing 2-3 hr stretches- killer! We do nursing and shush pat depending on situation. Could she be ut going robed? She has been fussing/crying for 5-10 mins then falls asleep.
Thanks
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Are you giving meds at BT at all or during the night to see if they help? It sounds like it sure could be teething.
If 3h40-45min is giving you better naps, then of course you can stay there. I'm going to see if I can get another pair of eyes on this for you, because honestly I'm feeling stumped. I know when you first posted you were doing a 4hr first A time and maybe that's really where she should be. It seems really long and I think she was OT overall at that point, but maybe we just need to figure out the second half of the day better, idk. :-\
At bedtime she will sleep for a couple of hours and make the transition and other days wakes up after30-40 mins screaming and needing shush pat. It can take her 20 mins or so to settle her- she seems angry. Is she ot or ut? She has been doing 2-3 hr stretches- killer! We do nursing and shush pat depending on situation. Could she be ut going robed?
It sounds like OT to me. I really don't think she's UT going to bed... she's had a lot of A time throughout the day and not a long, restorative nap. I wonder if maybe she's a backward 2-3-4 schedule type. Meaning 4hr first A, 3hr second A, 2hr to bed... I know I've seen another LO on here like that before. What do you think?
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Hi
We have been giving her infant Motrin before bed and in the middle of the night. I think she might be getting more than 4 upper teeth- I see some white swelling at 2 other spots!
I have been going crazy with this so after looking at old post and such I do think. She is ot for bedtime and naps. Today she went for nap 1 at 3hrs45 mins which produced a 38 min nap. She woke quiet and happy and chilled in crib for 15 mins or so until I got her to feed her. I know waking happy and chilling in crib is usually ut but I have been told it could be ot and I am thinking she might be that. I also decided that even if she doesn't have sleepy signs, I will put her down at around 3 hrs for 2nd nap if she short naps. I think she may have been ot because she would go down at 3 hrs15/20like yesterday and it gave a 28 min nap. Today she went down after her 38 min am nap at 2 hrs 50 and so far she has been sleeping 41 minutes so we will see.
Last night we revamped our routine and put her down at 2 hrs30 min rather than 3 hrs or later which is when we thought she showed sleepy signs. She put herself to sleep in just a few minutes with little fussing and made it thought the first cycle so that was good- no wake-up after 30-40 minutes. However, she woke after 1 1/2 hours. We shush patted to sleep. She slept for another 1 1/2 hrs and woke again and I nursed back. She slept almost a 4 hr stretch then and woke and I nursed again. She woke when I put her in crib, fussed for a few minutes then chilled out in crib and put herself to sleep about 15 minutes later. I am. Using way more than normal just because she is teething and because she needs sleep and I know she can fall back asleep quickly rather than shush pat for 20-40 minutes. I am prepared to handle this prop after teething.
I thought her night would be better because we put her down earlier and hopefully not too ot. I can't tell though if it is teeth or ot. She definitely wants to be held more at night.
Anyhow, I am going to cut back on all awake for the week to test it. I am getting nervous that we are repeating the issue we had earlier when we thought she could stay up for 4 hrs. I am going to put down for am nap around 3hrs30-40, pm nap if short nap at 3hrs and bedtime if short nap at 2.5 hrs. We are desperate so willing to try anything- what do you think?
Thanks for your help.
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I think that's worth a shot and it is more age-appropriate. I also think it's good that she didn't wake 30-40min after BT. I just don't see much of a pattern in her A times and naps, so it's really hard to tell what's right (and I know that's how you're feeling too). :-\
It's also really tough when she's teething so heavily, because that can definitely throw things off. My DS got 6 teeth from 7.5-10mo and it was rough. I also had a bit of a nursing prop from that, but it was easily dealt with afterward, so I wouldn't worry about that.
(((Hugs))) hon, you're doing a great job with her!
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Hi there!
I read a few of your posts and I hope you don't mind I am joining in with me thoughts :).
It seems to me like you are relying too much on her sleepy cues (which are not reliable at this age anymore with most babies) and jumping around A times too much trying to figure out the right one. That's fair enough ;) but if you give one A 3h, then the next day you jump to 3.5h, then the next day to 2.5h 'cause none gave you good naps - you will not see a pattern and you are actually confusing your LO like that. You need to give her a chance to set her body clock.
She is around 8m, right? So to do that I would have all her A time at 3h, which is the lowest at her age. I would do it like this:
7WU
10-11:30 nap (can also be 2h)
11:30-14:30 A
14:30-16 nap (can also be 2h)
18:30-19 BT
The 2.5h A time before BT seemed to work well for you then I'd try and stick with that if possible.
If she will not nap for 1.5h for her nap I would try and stretch it by whatever works for you now (either ST or props). Personally I think that she is too old for Shush-pat and most babies this age find Shush-pat stimulating, but if it works for you then continue with that. If not then I would use PU/PD.
You try and settle back to sleep for 40min and if it doesn't work then you take her out of the room and start your A time, probably shorter than 3h 'cause she didn't sleep enough.
You do that for 4-5 days and then if you still get short naps you gradually start increasing her A time - first to 3:10h, then after 4-5 days you go up to 3:20h and so on. You stop increasing A times when on the 4th-5th day you start to get restorative naps - 1.5-2h long.
That's the only way I can think of that you can find out her right A times. I know that it's like starting from scratch but it's methodical, yk? You give her enough time to get used to each A time during those 4-5 days, preventing her from getting OT and then moving on.
What do you think?
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Hi
Thanks for the extra set of eyes. I def timely think she is way overtired by the end of the day and that is why is is doing manly 3-4 hour stretches!
Yesterday I put her down for first nap at around 3 hrs30 and it took a few minutes but she put herself to sleep. She woke at around 35-40 mins during transition but put herself back to sleep. In total she slept 1hr4 mins. With the sleep not being seamless transition I think she was overtired but not too overtired that she completely woke and couldn't go back to sleep.
So, today I have decided to try putting her down at 3 hrs10 with hopes of her falling asleep by 3 hrs 15. I think 3 hrs is too short for her. She played and crawled around in the crib for about 5 mins and started crying/fussing and finally fell asleep on her own at around 3 hrs23. I think she was a bit undertired when I put her down. Anyhow,she slept 45 mins started pulling herself up in crib and fussing a little. I will let her chill for for 15 mins (1 hr total in crib) unless she starts really crying. If she does 45 min naps what time do I put her down for the pm nap?
Last night was bad- she has a 20 min pm nap. We put her down after 3 hrs25(after 1 hr 4 min nap) and she played for about 5 mins then crying. We let her try to sort herself out for 10 mins total then went in to pick up and shush pat. She finally fell asleep at 3 hrs 3 hrs45 mins. We thought she was ut going down then got ot in the 20 mins it took her to settle. But now thinking she could have been. Ot the whole time? Our LO has short sleep cycles so 1 hr15 is two cycles for her. We thought having an hour nap she might be able to handle full activity and she didn't show sleepy signs (I know they are not reliable!)
We put her to bed at 2 hrs45 and I am pretty sure she was way ot at this point looking back. She is throwing us off because there was a period of time where it seemed she wanted a long awake even if she short napped in the pm so we are nervous to put her down too early. However- I know now that a 8 1/2 month old cannot make it 2hrs45 after a 20 min nap and at the end of the day. What time do you think would have been the appropriate time to put her down then? She woke happy from am nap and screaming from pm nap. The ore question is that she woke at 7:50 yesterday so we didn't know how it would effect her if we put her down after 10.5 or 11 hours of sleep.
At nightshe has been waking 3 times a night. She screams when my husband picks her up to try to soothe and shush pat her. He will try to shush for awhile and it will take her forever to get back to sleep. i feel like sleep is very important and for the most part after nursing she seems to be able to go down. As soon as she gets in my arms she calms then I have been feeding her- dealing with that prop after this issue! I have been dealing with her crying as soon as I put her down, I have tried putting my hand on her but she seems to get energized when she has a visual of me. She smiles and coos and gets all excited en ed when I don't pick her up. How do I handle this?
We want to try pu/pd but don't know when to start. 3 teeth just broke through this past week and it looks like she has another 1-2 in the works. Is it best to wait or try to handle now. Tis teething, excessive waking has been going on for 3 weeks and I am afraid she is getting used to being held, nursed, and me coming to her when she cries but I know sleep training is not recommended during teething and milestones ( she just started crawling and pulling herself up). Also she. We do pu/pd how do we do it? When she flips to her back and just smiles and pants at me what do I do. Just stand there u til she really cries, calm her then put her back down? And how does pu/pd work if we don't even know if we are putting her robed at the right time? Can you do it if she goes to bed ut or ot? I feel like we can't start sleep training until we know when to even put her to bed! It's beyond frustrating.
Thanks for your help!
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If she does 45 min naps what time do I put her down for the pm nap?
I'd go for somewhere between 2h30m-3h. The other day you said she feel asleep around 2h50min after a shorter morning nap. How did that nap go?
But now thinking she could have been. Ot the whole time?
Yes, that would be my guess.
However- I know now that a 8 1/2 month old cannot make it 2hrs45 after a 20 min nap and at the end of the day. What time do you think would have been the appropriate time to put her down then? She woke happy from am nap and screaming from pm nap. The ore question is that she woke at 7:50 yesterday so we didn't know how it would effect her if we put her down after 10.5 or 11 hours of sleep.
I would say no more than 2.5hr, but I would have done everything I could to extend that 20min nap as that just puts you in a pickle. It's actually quite normal to put a LO down after only 10.5-11hr of daytime when the naps are so short during the day. I always think of a later wake-up like that as a head start, because a shorter day is actually easier to do, then. And often, LOs will end up making up for the lost day time sleep when they are put down earlier for the night.
I have been dealing with her crying as soon as I put her down, I have tried putting my hand on her but she seems to get energized when she has a visual of me. She smiles and coos and gets all excited en wee*ed when I don't pick her up. How do I handle this?
Is this after you feed her? TBH, if you're ending up feeding her at each of the NWs anyway, I'd just do it and not have your DH try to get her back to sleep first. This will hopefully mean she doesn't wake as fully and more easily falls back to sleep. If she's smiling and cooing, I'd just take your hand off her and maybe take a step back and disengage (try not to look at her in the eyes, etc). When she gets mad, then try to settle her in the crib, pick her up if needed, but then put her back down and try to settle her in the crib again.
Also she. We do pu/pd how do we do it? When she flips to her back and just smiles and pants at me what do I do. Just stand there u til she really cries, calm her then put her back down? And how does pu/pd work if we don't even know if we are putting her robed at the right time? Can you do it if she goes to bed ut or ot?
It's up to you if you are ready to start now or not. Theres no point in starting if you don't feel like you can carry it through. When you say 1-2 teeth more in the works, do you mean about to cut or you can see them under the gum or just swollen? For PUPD at this age, you don't pick up and wait til she's calm to put back down. You will pick up when needed (so not if she's just babbling and cooing at you, then I'd step back like I mentioned above), say your sleep phrase and then put right back down and attempt to settle her in the crib. You don't have to have a perfect EASY for PUPD, in fact rarely anyone does. But, she's already going to sleep independently for naps and BT, no? So, really you'd only be doing PUPD to extend naps and/or at NWs. So, if she wakes UT and is not crying, you just leave her. You can try PUPD when she starts to cry, but if it doesn't work after 20-30min, get her up and do A time. If she's OT, she may fight PUPD the first few times, but eventually should learn to go back to sleep with that little bit of help. Here are the guidelines for PUPD for each age: How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
I hope that helps... will be interested to hear ISA's opinion as well. Please let us know what other questions you have.
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Yesterday I put her down for first nap at around 3 hrs30 and it took a few minutes but she put herself to sleep.
So, today I have decided to try putting her down at 3 hrs10 with hopes of her falling asleep by 3 hrs 15.
That's what I meant by jumping between A times. If you want to get to her exact A time, the one that gives you a full nap, then you'd really need to stick to an A time for 3-4 days and only then increase it again.
I would say no more than 2.5hr
I agree. 2.5h A time before BT has worked well for you, I will not offer any longer A than that.
She screams when my husband picks her up to try to soothe and shush pat her. He will try to shush for awhile and it will take her forever to get back to sleep.
That's what I meant in my previous post - she is probably too old for Shush-pat and it's just stimulating her. It also sounds to me like there is some pattern there that daddy tries to settle but LO knows that after a while mommy will come with some nice milk so I'll just cry 'cause I anyway get it. Like Katie said, if you are anyway going to feed then I would feed straight when she wakes up at her NW because there is really no point in letting a baby cry so much and wake so much in the middle of the night if you are anyway going to feed her eventually. This is in no way a failure or a bad things, many parents choose to feed at all NW or most of them because the baby goes back to sleep easier like that and choose to focus more on the day routine.
But if you want to start and wean the NF, if you want to try and extend naps, if you want her to learn how to fall back asleep in the middle of the night independently then I would give PU/PD a serious try.
My DS was already pulling himself standing in the cot at this age so we had no pick up at all anymore. I would just lay him down again and again, no eye contact like Katie mentioned and using your sleepy phase again and again. The first few nights can be difficult, but IMO it's worth it - everybody start to sleep better :).
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Another rough night. We put her down at 2hrs55 mins after her pm nap of 40 mins. I think she was likely overtired but she was able to put herself to sleep in 5 mins pretty peacefully. We had a longer awake because her pm nap ended at 3:05 so we were dealing with putting her down at 5:30-5:45 and it seems too early. She woke after 26 mins, shush patted back to sleep, woke again 3 hrs later, nursed then tried putting down a lot but she kept crying and pulling herself up to find me. It took over an hour to finally get her down. She woke again after 3 hrs30 which I nursed for 10 mins and she went back to sleep for 2 1/2 hrs but the last couple of hours she would cry out in sleep continuously- not just once or twice. She was asleep so I didn't go to her. She woke at 6:50. In all, 4 now- killer!
I moved the awake from 3hrs30 to 3hrs/10-15 and plan to keep it at that for the week. Yesterday i put down at 3 hrs10 and it took 13 mins to fall asleep and she slept 45 mins. Today I put down at3 hrs15 and it took less than 10 mins to fall asleep and she slep for xxxxxxxxxxxx. I will try this for the week to see what kind of results come up.
Yesterday after her 45 min nap I put down at2 hrs55 and she played a bit then fussed for a total of 10 mins then woke after 40 mins. She was fussing and roaming around crib- as soon as I turn on the light she is a happy girl. I know it is crazy but I felt she was undertired for that nap but obviously I am having trouble reading her. Her naps yesterday would indicate ut, right with the 45 and 40 min nap? She fussed a little but as soon as I get her she is happy so I feel like the fussing is more because she wants to see me because she is happy then. She fell asleep yesterday at 3 hrs22 and today at 3 hrs23- could that time be her sleepy time?
I assume all the nw are overtired? I do think she is going through separation anxiety- she flips over as soon as I put her down and crawls to the ottom of the crib and pulls up to peer over the bumper. I tried to stand over her last night during a nw after I nursed her and put my hand on her but she was again happy and smiling. I have tried two nights to put her down and leave the room but she just cries and cries. For the most part when I pick her up she will be sleeping or calm in my arms but then wide awake when I put her down.
My husband and I decided to do pu/pd starting this weekend. We are still trying to figure out how to do it. She puts herself to sleep for naps and bedtime but it is e excessive nw we need help with. When she wakes crying we will pick her up quick and put her down and say our sleepy phrase then leave or stay there? Also, when you say resettle her if she starts fussing once you put her down and before she is screaming, do you mean shush pat or something in her crib u til she is asleep? We have tried putting hand on tummy, holding hand, etc but patting on but/side seems to work best but I am not sure when we stop that. Is our goal to put her to sleep or just to calm her. Also- we only pick up if she is really crying, right? Or is it a constant pu/pd with sleepy phrase?
Regarding the question about trying to resettle if she takes a very short nap. I have done that by trying to nurse and she is wide awake. I keep lights off and sound machines on but she is wide awake- and this is the pm nap. If I try to pick her up and shush pat she smiles and is squirmy in my arms. I usually just leave her in the crib (an hour so if she naps 30 mins try to leave for another 30 unless she is crying). She use to fall back asleep if she was ot back in the day but it has been awhile since she did that. Also- the teething question- 2 uppercut through and it looks like another one is about to cut through the gums. She has white on her gums in 2 other spots.
Really appreciate your help. She went from waking once a night for a 10 min feed to waking up 3-4 times and staying up for upwards to an hour or more during the night!
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Sorry- I meant to and that after her am nap. Anyhow- she just woke at 29 mins crying and fussing for a couple of mins then now she is playing, crawling, sitting and pulling up in crib. What time should I put her down for pm nap? 2.5 or3? What if she short naps again- says he wakes between 2:15-3:30 do we do a catnap or bedtime? I think we agreed 2.5 is max for bedtime if she short naps but that puts at at 4:45-5:45.
Another long day !
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Sorry- update. I think she may have woken due to a bowel movement. She has been dealing with a little constipation and she had a play dough texture poop. I think this is why she woke up as she has been pushing and straining to get these out (sorry to be so graphic). Anyhow, I think this is what woke her.
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Her naps yesterday would indicate ut, right with the 45 and 40 min nap?
40min nap can be either or and a good way to decide which one it is is by the way baby woke up. Was she crying when she woke up or chatty and ready to play? Also, are you sure that you are not rushing in too quickly when she wakes up too early from a nap? Do you still give her time after waking up till she calls you and needs you?
She fell asleep yesterday at 3 hrs22 and today at 3 hrs23- could that time be her sleepy time?
It's just how long it took her to fall asleep from being put down in the crib till falling asleep, I wouldn't make any conclusions based in that and would just stick to your A times that you decided on. I don't think you need a whole week for each A time, 5 days are a max, IMO. If she is UT with this A time and you are not upping it in time then she will just be more and more Ut and your nights will be harder and harder.
When she wakes crying we will pick her up quick and put her down and say our sleepy phrase then leave or stay there? Also, when you say resettle her if she starts fussing once you put her down and before she is screaming, do you mean shush pat or something in her crib u til she is asleep? We have tried putting hand on tummy, holding hand, etc but patting on but/side seems to work best but I am not sure when we stop that. Is our goal to put her to sleep or just to calm her. Also- we only pick up if she is really crying, right? Or is it a constant pu/pd with sleepy phrase?
Is she pulling herself already in the cot? If she is I wouldn't pick up at all unless she is very distressed. When I did PU/PD and DS was sitting, not even standing, there was no PU anymore. I put him down and left the room immediately. If he started crying I would go in again, lay him down, not make eye contact and say the sleepy phrase. If he stood again I lay him down again. If he sitting I just stand in his room, not next to the cot and say the sleepy phrase, because often after a while he'd just go from sitting to lying down. I know that parents who do PD do PU when the baby cries a lot, for us that never worked. When I tried doing that DS got so wound up and was screaming when I put him down because he thought that I was going to hold him now but then put him down again :( There was no touching at all except for the PD. First of all he found it stimulating and annoying when I did and I on the other hand was worried that if I start stroking him or put a hand on him he is going to turn that into a prop (which happened in the past). Have you read the link that Katie gave you about PU/PD according to age?
What if she short naps again- says he wakes between 2:15-3:30 do we do a catnap or bedtime? I think we agreed 2.5 is max for bedtime if she short naps but that puts at at 4:45-5:45.
This is something you gonna need to try out. I personally would have done a super short CN 'cause that's what worked for my DS, but there are many mommies here who use EBT and SEBT (super early bedtime) and their babies catch up on sleep beautifully. Every baby is different.
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Noa's already given you great advice... just thought I'd add my two cents about PUPD.
When she wakes crying we will pick her up quick and put her down and say our sleepy phrase then leave or stay there? Also, when you say resettle her if she starts fussing once you put her down and before she is screaming, do you mean shush pat or something in her crib u til she is asleep? We have tried putting hand on tummy, holding hand, etc but patting on but/side seems to work best but I am not sure when we stop that. Is our goal to put her to sleep or just to calm her. Also- we only pick up if she is really crying, right? Or is it a constant pu/pd with sleepy phrase?
Yes, you only pick up if she's really crying. But, Noa is right, if she's already pulling up toward you, it's just PD. If she sits up, you can decide if picking her up is better or just putting her down. It really is dependent on the LO. I would stay with her until she falls asleep the first few nights, but then start leaving once she is calm. As for putting her down, yes I would use the patting technique that you know helps her calm down... no use trying a bunch of other ones, when that one already works. BUT, the goal is to helps her calm down, NOT to put her to sleep. So, you need to stop the patting/etc when she calms and just stay by the crib and say reassure her with your voice if needed.
HTH!
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Hi
I still feed her during the night- lately way more than I should. However, she use to just wake once and I would feed. Do I still keep one feed if it has been a decent stretch or do I just do pd for all wakes?
Yesterday she only woke twice during the night but woke at 6:15 which is early for her. She also did not do an hour long awake stretch during the night which was great. Her longest stretch though was only 4 hrs still. We ended up doing the catnap and tried putting her to bed after 2 hrs10 mins and she screamed and cried. I went in after 10 mins to nurse her and she calmed down and I put her down awake and she put herself to sleep. It seriously was like a switch came on and she was ready for bed. Maybe 2 hrs10 mins is not enough awake time even after 30 min nap at end of the day?
Today's naps- am pd at 3hrs17, took about 5-6 mins of playing and little fussing and put herself to bed. She slept 1hr8 mins. Pm nap- pd at 3 hrs20 and she seemed wide awake. While doing routine she was playing with my face, smiling and talking. She played and hung out in crib with hardly any fussing for 20 mins then went to bed and woke 29 mins later, fussing a little. I went to try to nurse about a minute or two after wake up but she was wide awake and happy. We pd for bed at 2 hrs50 and she cried with little scream but put herself to sleep in about 5 minutes and has been asleep for 1 hr50 mins as we speak. Happy that she was able to make it through the first cycle without waking.
I cannot figure out when to put her down for her pm nap if she naps over an hour for her am nap. I guess I do the same process I am for the am nap and keep trying the same time? She has been waking with little fussing/noise then playing and when I get her she is happy.
We will try pd this weekend. Does it matter who does it? Is it better for me or my husband to do it- we both will do it but didn't know who might be best. I know they say sometimes it is better for the dad to soothe because the babies know they can't nurse. Also, when we are calming in crib, do we say phrase or just the butt patting? Phrase is only when we put down or when she starts crying if we are not calming her in crib?
Thanks!
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Do I still keep one feed if it has been a decent stretch or do I just do pd for all wakes?
You can still feed every 4-6hr. You decide what is best for you and her and then resettle all other wakes. Just make sure that if you start resettling and end up going over your allotted time, you don't stop to feed. You need to see it through until she's back to sleep and then feed at the next waking, even if it's ten min later. IIWY, I'd still feed twice, and once she's settling better for you, then you can work at pushing one of those out to get rid of it.
Does it matter who does it? Is it better for me or my husband to do it- we both will do it but didn't know who might be best. I know they say sometimes it is better for the dad to soothe because the babies know they can't nurse.
Yes, it's often easier for LO to settle if the one who goes to her doesn't have milk. But, I would go with whoever will be able to see it through. My DH was more than willing to help with both our kids when we had to do some night training, but after trying a couple times, he wasn't quite as good at seeing it through and would end up coming to get me (mostly because he was a bit unsure of himself). So, I did all of the night training with both kids and it didn't take any longer than it should have.
Also, when we are calming in crib, do we say phrase or just the butt patting? Phrase is only when we put down or when she starts crying if we are not calming her in crib?
You say your phrase whenever she needs help settling. Your voice reassures her of your presence and will eventually be the only thing you use, so as not to have something else like patting become a prop. So, say it while you're patting if she needs help, "Shh, honey, it's just time to go to sleep." Say it when calming in the crib and when you lay her down after picking her up. But, take note... if your voice or presence disturbs her more than it helps, then you can just sit silently too.
Good luck... here to hold your hand! :)
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Thanks for the encouragement- I need it! Quick question- so far she has woken up twice- 1st time took 1 1/2 hrs and 2nd time about an hour. With all this lost sleep am I to assume we cut back awake during the day as she will likely be tired? Also- we decided to cut out all feeds (I know she is. It hungry) so it didn't confuse her. With that said- should I be pumping at night to keep up my milk supply?
Thanks
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Today's naps- am pd at 3hrs17, took about 5-6 mins of playing and little fussing and put herself to bed. She slept 1hr8 mins. Pm nap- pd at 3 hrs20 and she seemed wide awake. While doing routine she was playing with my face, smiling and talking. She played and hung out in crib with hardly any fussing for 20 mins then went to bed and woke 29 mins later, fussing a little.
Which day is of the increased A time? If you did it for 4 days or so I would increase it again by 10min.
The NW which are so hard to settle are very often UT and if you increase her A time then I think it will help with the NW as well.
With all this lost sleep am I to assume we cut back awake during the day as she will likely be tired?
Not necessary. It's so different from baby to baby that you will just need to try out and see what works for your DD.
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I have been doing the 3 hrs10-20 since Monday. However, today I was not sure when she woke- I think I could only be off by 10 mins or so but not sure exactly how long her awake was. I put her down and she played and hardly made any noise and put herself to sleep in about 7 minutes. At most I think I put her down at 3 hrs25and at the earliest 3 hrs15. So you think I should increase it now or give it another day or so? Also- I should increase to 3 hrs30- put down around then, not be asleep by 3hrs30.
We decided to start pd last night. She woke twice where we did pd and she woke once at around 5:30 and I was sure she was up for the day as she was playing with the camera attached to her crib. I fell asleep though because she was not crying and when I woke 15 mins later she was asleep.
She is still only doing 2-3 hour stretches though. To clarify, you think she might be undertired for her am nap but getting overtired for pm nap and bedtime? For pm nap after at least an hour am nap should I try to put her down at 3hrs30 (or whatever I do in the am)? Yesterday she short napped and played quietly for 20 mins after 1hr8 min nap after I put her down at 2 hrs20.
Thanks
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She woke from am nap after 33-34 minutes with no crying, just cruising around and playing. Given the short nap if you think I can increase the awake time, what time do you think she should go down then for pm nap? Thanks
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With all this lost sleep am I to assume we cut back awake during the day as she will likely be tired?
My DS was a big time NWer from 7-10mo. I never really changed his A time much during the day unless he was totally exhausted. I wanted him to make up for the lost sleep at night again, not during the day. Eventually he did.
Also- we decided to cut out all feeds (I know she is. It hungry) so it didn't confuse her. With that said- should I be pumping at night to keep up my milk supply?
Is she taking many solids? Do you do a DF? If you truly believe she isn't hungry, then you don't need to fed her, but there are lots of EBF babies that still have a DF or NF until 9/10mo, so I wouldn't totally rule out hunger unless you are quite sure. Doing PUPD at the right times and feeding at the appropriate times will not confuse her if she needs a feed. And if she doesn't need it, then I wouldn't worry about pumping, unless you want some extra milk to be giving her during the day in a bottle or sippy cup.
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Sorry for all the post- I should save everything and post at the end of the day but things keep popping up and I don't want to forget.
Regarding pd- once she has calmed do I just stand there until she falls asleep or go aay from her view? She calmed then would start back to crying so it was helpful to be right there to do the phrase but I am not sure when to leave. I don't want her to expect to see me all the time to fall asleep.
Thanks
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Regarding pd- once she has calmed do I just stand there until she falls asleep or go aay from her view? She calmed then would start back to crying so it was helpful to be right there to do the phrase but I am not sure when to leave. I don't want her to expect to see me all the time to fall asleep.
I would stand there for now and over the next several days start moving farther and farther back, until you can leave the room. You can say your sleep phrase from anywhere in the room and if the crying escalates, then you can go to her and help her calm in the crib.
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We posted at the same time!
Yes, she nurses 4 times a day and has solids 3 times a day. We made it last night with no feed so unless I feel she isn't getting enough during the day we will cut out the feed. Good to know the rule of thumb if I do decide to feed- we will be consistent with each wake up.
I put her down at 2 hrs10 mins for pm nap after a 30 min nap. I think she was overtired a little but felt we had to try to delay a bit in case she only slept 30 mins we can try putting her down at 5:45 (3 hrs). I am still needing to figure out when to put her down for pm nap if she short naps and if she takes an hour nap or longer. Based on the suggestion from the other moderator I will slightly increase her awake time in the am to see if it helps.
Thanks
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I put her down for pm nap at 3 hrs10 mins - sorry about the typo.
I will stay by her side per your suggestion.
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Sounds good, keep us posted. :)
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I am still needing to figure out when to put her down for pm nap if she short naps and if she takes an hour nap or longer.
That's a really complicated one to figure out, that's why I think that it's better to focus on figuring out the first A time and hope for the best with the second one for now. I really do think that you need to increase the first A time. If she was in bed after 3:20h A time then I would put in bed after 3.5h A time, but if she was earlier and fell asleep after 3:20h then I would increase 10min from the time you put her down before.
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Hi
So, the last couple of days have been a bit crazy. I increased her awake to 3hrs20-30 on Friday based on recommendations and it has gone terrible. The first day I put down at 3hrs25 and fussed but took only 5 minutes to fall asleep and she slept 53 mins and woke happy. The pm nap I put down at 3hrs31 and she fussed and cried by fell asleep in 6 minutes but only for 25 minutes. I did keep her up a little bit longer just in case she did a short nap we could put her down at 6. There was no way though that she was going to make it 3 hours until bedtime so we did a catnap in the car and put her down to sleep 13 1/2 hour day. She woke after 38 minutes then was able to settle herself to sleep for a 3 hour stretch followed by a almost 7 hour stretch. We haven't had a 7 hour stretch in nearly a month!
Sat- am nap put down at 3hrs30. She cried/fussed for 5-8 minutes then put herself to sleep and woke crying 25 minutes later. PM nap put down at 3hrs30 (again kept her up a bit in case of short nap early bedtime- total backfire) and she slept 23 minutes and woke crying. I assume both naps were OT? Short naps, waking crying, crying/fussing quite a bit when put down, etc.
Sun- AM nap put down at 3 hrs25, fussed for 5-8 minutes then went to sleep and woke 25 mins later crying. We left her for a bit all the days but no falling back asleep. About 2 hrs after am nap she fell asleep in the car for 40 minutes, woke (I think the car door opening woke her) then 15 mins later fell back asleep for about 28 minutes. She has NEVER done that. Since we were completely off schedule then we did an early car ride again and she fell asleep 2 1/2 hours later in the car.
I assume she is exhausted if she has been sleeping so much and after such short awake time in the car. The last couple of days we have had to do a 3rd cat nap in the car and she usually falls asleep in after 2 hours awake.
I am soooo confused about her awake time. She has been getting a little fussy in the am before 3hrs30 and I have been so tempted to put her down but am trying to give the 3hrs20-30 a chance. Her first day with 3hrs25 was a decent nap but the last 2 days have been 25 minutes and crying!
The PD at night has been going well. She has been waking only once at night which is great. It has taken anywhere from 15-50 minutes to get her to fall back asleep but it's definitely an improvement from waking 3 times a night. She definitely cries out in her sleep lately but seems to be able to for the most part put herself to sleep. She is doing longer stretches which I think should be helping with her OT but doesn't seem to show it yet. She use to average 10.5 hours of sleep a night (in a 12 hours cycle so with all wakings taking 1.5 hours on average. She now has been averaging 10 hours of sleep because we have had to do the 3rd cat nap so she has been going to bed after at least 13 hours up. She also has been waking up earlier than usual- 6-6;15.
So, some improvement at night but now the naps are insane. Help!
Thanks!
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Can you start using PUPD to extend the naps? I just think there's no way she's waking from them UT. She's either waking because she's OT or OS or really struggles to transition.
She does sounds really tired. I honestly don't know what to say wrt routine, as I usually was able to figure out a correct A time for my LOs, either by trial and error or pure accident. I do know, however, if they were up for 3.5hr and took only a 30min nap or less, they wouldn't have lasted much more than 2-2.5hr on the next A time.
In fact, that was my DS's routine at 13-15mo (granted, he's never been a high A time guy; some LOs are doing this routine around 10-12mo)...
Wake 7am
Nap 1 10:30-11am
Nap 2 1:30-3pm
BT 7/7:30pm
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Hi
So a few updates here. The last 2 nights she slept continuously for 10.5 hrs and 11.5! Amazing! She still cries out a bit a few times a night and I am sure she will wake but she seems to be asleep and can settle. I definitely think the pd helped and teething seems to be over for the most part. We still can't quite get her bedtime right so I have been doing pd after she fusses then cries- but it usually only takes 5-10 minutes. So night sleep has been good!
Naps are a different story. Yesterday am nap- pd at 3hrs28, she played for 8 mins, tiny fuss right at the end then fell asleep in 10 mins total so asleep at 3hrs38. It was very peaceful and I felt she might have been undertired. She woke at 50 mins and chilled in crib, no crying. Her pm nap was in the car- she definitely started getting a bit fussy around 2hrs30-45. We had a play date so she fell asleep in the car but was crying when I put her in the carseat and for a few minutes of driving then fell asleep in just a few minutes of driving. She fell asleep at 3hrs17 and slept 1hr5 mins although opened eys a few times but fell back asleep.
Her nap today am I nursed her to sleep. At around 3hrs10 was going to start wind down and pulled her aay from a toy and she started crying then cried and screamed for about 10 mins or so. She fell asleep at 3hrs35 and slept 54 minutes, waking quietly. Was she undertired and freaking out becuse I was trying to wind down? Or overtired? The nap length and how she has been waking up makes me think ut now. This is day 5 of 3hrs25-30 and I have had naps of 25-55 minutes although the last two days have been 50 mins plus.
Still trying to figure out bedtime and awake. I don't know if I should increase am awake or what. She wakes happy the last 2 days. Her reactions before am nap the last 2 days have been opposites so not sure what to make of it.
Thanks
Thanks again for pd support- really think it helped us. So glad she is now doing long stretches at night!
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Also very confused about when to put down if am nap is 50 or so mins but before 1hr- shorten awake? Yesterday she seemed tired before 3 hrs and today she seems fine.
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What you experienced is very typical when increasing A times - the first 2-3 days are OT but then LO gets used to it and settles into the new A. I would be careful to increase it more right now, I think you can give her a few more days of the 3.5h A time. I agree with Katie, if she gives you a short nap then I wouldn't do a full A time afterwards, maybe 2.5? I would follow her cues. And I also think that you should give PD a try with extending naps because maybe she just never learned to go through sleep cycles during her naps.
I am really happy that you see already progress at night!
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So if she naps less than an hour decrease her awake by an hour to 2.5? I thought 30 mins decreased was recommended so that is what I have been trying to do or at least look at her sleepy cues. If she naps 50 mins or so also decrease by an hour or if naps are 25-35 mins? Seems like she is doing the 50 min am naps making it hard to figure pm nap time. Thanks
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It's just something that you'll need to try out. Some babies need the A time to be shortened loads and some don't at all.
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Glad to hear about the nights, that's great! And it's also good to see she's having some longer naps. The trial and error is tough, but I agree it's really the only way to figure it out. I always started with the smallest A I thought appropriate and went from there. So, I'd start with 2.5hr regardless of nap length and work off that. Hopefully, that first nap will start to be more consistent for you and you can get a better feel for the second A time.
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I desperately need help. Although the last week she has been sleeping through the night getting her down for naps and especially bedtime has been terrible. It takes over an hour. The first few days it was her constantly pulling up and me putting her down. She would smile, giggle, and then cry. I would leave once she settled or after several pd attempts and her just chilling. The last couple of nights she has been screaming and really crying. She has had terrible naps so we have been trying to put her down around 2nrs30. We use to let her cry or fuss for 10 mins or so but we thought we would try the sleep phrase sooner when she started screaming. It has taken over an hour to put her down the last 5 days. Today we thought we would put her down at 2 hrs15 to try putting to bed earlier. She cried and screamed immediately and I went in for pd. I did is for about 30 mins then my husband stepped in. (I have been doing it all as she seemed to be comforted by me and he works full-time). She screamed and cried but interesting she does not really try to pull herself up for him. She just lays and screams. Anyhow, she did fall asleep finally after we put her down but it took 40 mins which is an I,prove net from the hour plus earlier. It is strange because it seems like something just clicks finally and she commits to sleep- all five days this has been going on. I know she has to be way overtired by the time she falls asleep- some days she has has been up for 4 hours after a 30 min am and pm nap.
I am assuming she is beyond tired when we put her down. We decreased awake to 2hrs15 tonight but it still took 40 mins. I am thinking maybe we need to put her down at 2 hrs? It has been exhausting. The only silver lining is that once she is down she has been sleeping 8-11.5 hours except last night where she woke twice standing up in crib. Since we were traveling with another family with a baby we nursed her both times to make sure she didn't cry and wake the other baby. Anyhow- I don't she can be ut going down and can only guess overtired.
The other issue is that when she was sleeping through the night but taking over an hour to fall asleep she has been waking early-5:00-5:30. Sometimes I can. Ruse her back to sleep for an hour or so and other days she is awake. Again- I assume it is because she is way ot going down since by the time she falls asleep she has been awake nearly 4 hours (3 hrs tonight). Since it takes so long to fall asleep and she wakes up so early we have been doing 3 naps and they have all been about 25-40 mins in crib or car. She ends up staying awake 13-14 hours a day- I am sure this effects it too. I can't even think about naps as the bedtime has been terrible. I know we need to work on naps now too- one problem at a time?
What do you think-- I am going crazy and it is exhausting.
Thanks!
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Hi hon, (((hugs))). Are you still travelling? I think that can have a big effect on her settling if she is in a new place, etc.
It also sounds like she might be dealing with some SA. I would make sure you're not leaving her to cry at all, but going to her when she needs your help and doing PD consistently (i.e. only when needed and stepping back when not). The milestone of pulling to standing can often be a tricky one for some babies and they will do it incessantly until its worn off. It was not fun with my DS. Try to stay patient and consistent with her and give her lots of practice during the day and it should get better fairly soon.
She does sound quite OT and of course that won't help anything. I wonder if you could AP some naps in the car or stroller for a few days in a row and see if that makes a difference at all in her settling at night and sleeping better.
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We came back Sunday. Sunday night it was like starting all over- took an hour to get her to sleep. In the middle of the night it took another hour and then she woke a couple more times but put herself to sleep. Last night she did 10.5 hours then woke at 5:40- I. Used back to sleep and she slept another hour. I probably need to do pd when she wakes early, right? She has been waking early for the last week and I suspect it is because she is ot?
Naps- yesterday had a 25 and 50 min nap. When she woke from am nap (3hrs30 when fell asleep, seemed tired soputdown at 3hrs20)I let her hang in crib for about 15 mins then got her when she started crying. Nursed her and she seemed really tired. Then she was dozing in and out so for her pm nap I wasn't sure when to put her down. It was either 2hrs45 or3hrs15 but she napped 50 mins. We put her in the crib for bed at 2hrs45ish and she cried. I did pd for about 15 mins and she fell asleep.
Today- down at 3hrs30 then asleep. At 3hrs35-peacefuland slept 1hr6mins. Put down for pm nap at 3hrs27-she seemed a little ut. Played, fussed/little cry, and talked to herself then asleep in 11 mins- pretty peaceful but only slept 30 mins and woke fussing/crying a little.
Question about pd- I am a bit confused as to when I go in. Early it was mentioned when she is really crying then yesterday you said b/c of SA go when she cries. Also- when I say my phrase and she calms from really crying to just kind of small cry/fuss do I leave her to settle herself or stay and say phrase? For the most part seems to be able to somewhat calm from screaming but then does little cry when she tries to get up. Not sure when to leave. If no crying and just pulling up just leave too?
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She is perhaps tired from not getting enough sleep at night but it sounds to me that she goes down for both her naps UT and it's probably time for her to have a bit more A time. I would start and work on the first A time and hope for a better AM nap. Not enough A time in the morning and EW are connected so it could be the reason why she has the EW.
WRT PD it depends on you, your LO and what stage of the ST you are at. I think it's better that in the first days you stay in the rooms for the entire time till LO falls asleep, but afterwards when LO gets used to the idea then I would always leave the room and only come back when she needs you.
I used to put down after the BT feed and leave the room to give him a chance to just lie there and relax if he needed to. If he cried I went back in and as soon as he was quiet I would leave, even if he was still standing or about to pull himself.
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Early it was mentioned when she is really crying then yesterday you said b/c of SA go when she cries.
Sorry for the confusion. In your reply you said that you 'use to let her cry or fuss for 10min'. I'm not sure what type of crying/fussing that is, but if she's suffering from SA, I think you need to be more careful about responding to her genuine cries. BW is never about a time frame/limit, but responding to your baby's needs/cries. If she is genuinely crying, don't leave her. But, I'd still use the really crying to assess if you pick her up. LOs of this age settle better out of your arms, so unless she really needs the reassurance, it's best to settle her in the crib (or maybe you're only doing PD at this point, I can't remember).
As far as the other questions...
WRT PD it depends on you, your LO and what stage of the ST you are at. I think it's better that in the first days you stay in the rooms for the entire time till LO falls asleep, but afterwards when LO gets used to the idea then I would always leave the room and only come back when she needs you.
I used to put down after the BT feed and leave the room to give him a chance to just lie there and relax if he needed to. If he cried I went back in and as soon as he was quiet I would leave, even if he was still standing or about to pull himself.
I agree with all of this. It really depends on her. The SA might be a factor too and it will be better to stay in the room. But, since she's been an independent sleeper before, it's fine to leave if she is quieting and trying to settle. Some LOs this age settle better without the distraction of someone open the room.
Keep up the good work!
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I agree that she seems ut for her 1st nap and yesterday seemed ut for 2nd nap as well. Todayi pd at 3hrs32 and she chilled and played quietly for 13 mins then fell asleep. She slept for 56 mins- she had a huge poop and also there were a couple of doors slamming so not sure if one of those woke her but she was happy when she woke. Since she slept almost an hour should I do the same or a bit longer awake for pm nap? Yesterday Idid 3hrs30 and she took 13 mins to fall asleep then woke after30 mins.
Now, if she is able to stay awake longer in am, if she does a short pm nap(30-45 mins) do you think putting her down at 2hrs30 is still good or can she stay awake a bit longer? The last 2 nights she has been out down at 2hrs30 but it has taken about 30 mins for her to fall asleep at around 3 hrs. Not sure it is taking long to get down because she is ut or ot going down or SA.
Thanks so much for your help. Feel like we are getting there....slowly.....
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I would increase the 1st A time by 10-15min and see if it makes a difference with the length of the first nap.
WRT A time before BT and the second nap it's something that you'd need to try out a bit. Some babies are doing great with a full A time before the second nap and then a short A time before BT (DS was like that) but some would need to have the second nap set at a certain time (and probably capped) to keep the last A as a full A that baby goes down ok for the night.
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Hi
I increased awake for am nap to 3hrs40-45 and so far it is definitely working. She is happy going down and plays in the crib for about 8-10 mins then falls asleep. The naps since increasing awake have been 1hr8 and xxxxxx. She is waking happy.
The pm naps have been terrible as I just can't figure it out! We'd she napped 56 mins and I put her down at 3 hrs32 mins and it took her 10 mins to fall asleep (last 5 fussing and little crying) and woke after 26 mins. Went in and nursed and she fell back asleep for 50 mins! Yesterday she seemed tired and I thought she must have been overtired the day before at pd at 3hrs30 so I put her down at 3hrs10 and it took 20 mins for her to fall asleep. Played for 10 mins then fussed for another 10 before sleeping then woke after 25 mins. Tried nursing but she was awake. I am thinking she may be ut for the pm naps as she plays quite a bit then fusses/cries. But she did fall back asleep after nursing and yesterday seemed really tired for about 45 mins after waking before she seemed to wake up so makes me think ot. Confused though because I put her down 20 mins earlier yesterday but she ended up falling asleep at the same time as when I kept her up 20 mins later(3hrs30).
Bedtime- we'd when she did the 25 min nap followed by nursing then sleep for another 50 we put her down at 2hrs50. She fussed but put herself to sleep in 10 mins and slept 11.5 hours and woke at 6:40Yesterday after a 25 min nap we planned to put her down earlier but she was just so playful during nursing that I didn't put her down until 2hrs45. She seemed ut or she had to be ot after a 25 min nap. She woke after 30 mins, fussed for less than 10 mins and put herself back to sleep but woke after6 hours fussing for a couple of minutes then playing and chilling in crib for about 40 mins before putting herself to sleep. Then she woke at 5:45 and I nursed her back to sleep for another hour. chilling in crib during night- ut or ot? Waking early- earlier we said this was ut and increasing awake in am should help. Maybe last night was a fluke? It has been weeks since she woke after 30 mins of sleep at night.
We head for vacay on Sunday for 10 days- sooo nervous because for the most part she is sleeping through the night but vacay always does a number on us!
Thanks again for your insight- it has been really helpful.
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Sent the email too so - she woke from the am nap after55 mins happy and playing immediately.
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Your AM nap is still UT... I would increase this A time again by 10min.
If she woke up 30min after BT that would usually indicate OT, so she went down UT for both her naps but because she didn't have restorative sleep during the day by the end of it she was OT + a long A before BT.
EW are not necessary UT, they can be OT as well (and can be caused by other things as well: Early Waking)
I believe that once her routine is better and she has more A time, naps better, then the EW will hopefully be gone as well.
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Hi
I wanted to give an update and ask a few questions. We have been on vacation then recovering from a cold so it's been awhile since I posted.
So, I think we finally got the am nap right. The last couple of days I have been putting her down at around 3hrs45 and she has been going down really peaceful and within a minute or two and sleeping for 1hr20-30 minutes! We are so excited as this is a long nap for her and 2 cycles.
For her pm nap I have been putting her down at around 3hrs30-40 and she goes down peaceful and within a couple of mins then has been waking up at 28-35 minutes which is great because with such long awakes she has to only get a quick cat nap.
For bedtime after long am nap and short pm nap she seems to be able to make it for 2hrs45 minutes and going to bed for once has been peaceful and quick. Fantastic! We have tried putting her down earlier after a short pm nap but she is just not tired. For the most part she is sleeping 9-11.5 hrs through the night. The only issue is that the last 2 nights she has woken at 4:30ish and it has taken an hour or a bit more for her to fall back asleep. The first night I went to nurse her as she has a cold and it sounded like she was having a hard time breathing with the coughing. Even so, it took her an hour to stay asleep. Every time I put her down she cried and got worked up because of the cold. Last night she played for about 20 mins then fussed for another 20. She was really trying to fall back asleep but she kept coughing. After her being up almost 45 mins I finally went in and nursed her. She fussed a second when put down but was able to put herself back to sleep in a couple of minutes. All together she was up a little over an hour. So she woke today at around 8am which is sleeping in. Yesterday was 7:45. She is averaging 11 hours or so of sleep (and up 1 hr). What could be causing the early waking? Is it because she might be taking pm nap ut? Does she just have to get use to it?
Tonight since she woke so late we will prob put her down at around 8pm. It's fine since she woke at 8 but I would really like to make bedtime more like 7-7:30 but with the long awake times how do I do this? Is she going to be going through the 1 nap transition? Is she a bit too young for this? I feel like we are already intentionally short napping the pm so we can do a decent bedtime but not sure what other options or suggestions there are.
I know e recommend to short nap the am nap and do long pm nap but we have had a lot of trouble with getting the awake for the pm. Also, I feel like if pm nap does not go well then the day is shot. If we do long am nap we know she will get at least one good nap.
Thanks for your help.
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I want to clarify that our LO is now 9.5 months. As you can see we have been at this for a long time. Thank you guys so much for your help!
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What could be causing the early waking? Is it because she might be taking pm nap ut? Does she just have to get use to it?
My guess is the EW is from her cold or maybe new teeth coming. A long NW at that time can also mean UT, but on the routine you have going, it wouldn't be my first thought. It doesn't really matter that she takes the pm nap UT, because like you said you just need that CN to make it to the end of the day. Since you've finally got your day figured out, I'd leave it how it is for now and see what happens with the NW. If it continues, I'd try w2s first and then we could look at tweaking the routine. Just to be sure, could you post what your day looks like in EAS format, please?
It's fine since she woke at 8 but I would really like to make bedtime more like 7-7:30 but with the long awake times how do I do this? Is she going to be going through the 1 nap transition? Is she a bit too young for this?
The only way to make BT earlier is to wake her up in the morning at 7-7:30 or cut some daytime sleep. Yes, she is starting the 2-1 nap transition and no she's not too young. There are babies who make the switch to one nap right around 12mo, which might be a possibility for you.
I know e recommend to short nap the am nap and do long pm nap but we have had a lot of trouble with getting the awake for the pm. Also, I feel like if pm nap does not go well then the day is shot. If we do long am nap we know she will get at least one good nap.
Yeah, I wouldn't switch the naps around if I were you, you've worked so hard to get where you are. Sometimes people switch because their LO refuses the second nap after a longer am nap, but you're not there yet and others definitely make it work by APOPing the second nap. I'd try all of that first.
Hope you had a nice vacation! :)
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Hi
Thanks again for your help. Our schedule for the last few days:
Mon-
Wake 6:54 (woke at 5:30, let fuss for awhile then nursed so back to sleep from 6:05-6:54)
S-10:47-12:12
S-3:53-4:27
BT-7:13
Tues
Wake 7:37 (woke at 4:28, chilled then fussed, finally nursed and back to sleep at 5:30)
S-11:24-12:45
S-4:21-4:49
BT-7:36
Wed
Wake 7:52 (woke at 4:39, fussed for awhile then finally nursed back to sleep at 5:45)
S-11:37-12:17
S-3:34-4:17
BT-7:05-5:15
Thurs
Wake 7:20 (woke st 5:15, fussed and chilled, finally nursed asleep at 6:20)
S-11:10-11:48
When she has been waking the last few days she is only fussing and coughing for a bit but you can see she is trying to settle. She keeps moving positions, sleeping for a min, then waking and trying to settle again. She isn't crying or really pulling up so that is why I have let her hang out for 40 mins the last few nights. She usually does not fuss for most of the 40 mins, just trying to settle. Finally she will let out a little cry/fuss and at that point I nurse because I can see she wants to sleep and I do not want her to start her day at 4:30-5:30. Se nurses for 5-10 mins then I put her back down, sometimes she is asleep and other times she puts resell to sleep.
The last 2 days she has had a short am nap- I think she is ut. She goes down really easy, usually playing for a couple of minutes then out. She wakes happy. The pm nap is the same although today it took her almost 10 mins to fall asleep but she didn't fuss just played. I put her down at 3hrs20 (thinking yesterday she was ut when I put her down at 3hrs5). She ended up falling asleep close to 3 hrs30 which I think is probably more appropriate.
I think I will try to increase her awake tomorrow am to 3hrs55-4hrs as I do think she is ut. She is getting good sleep at night. What do you think?
She is slowly getting over the cold. It's at the end stage so lots of coughing but its definitely getting better. When she wakes in the early am she does cough. I don't think she is teething anymore.
Any insight you have is appreciated.
Thanks
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If you end up nursing her anyway, is there a reason you don't nurse her right away when she wakes, so she's not in there rolling around so long?
Yes, I think it's worth it to push the morning A out to 4hr and see if you can't get that longer nap back. It may help the EW also.
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Hi
I have been holding off on nursing because she is not crying, fusses a little then just trying to settle quietly. I am hoping she can go back on her own- I only nurse because it is close enough in the am hours for her to start the day (5-6). Last night she stirred at 4:30am but put herself to sleep in about 5 mins, then woke at around 5:30. I nursed her after 5 mins of fussing just because at was 5:30 and I didn't want her day to start. To clarify as well, she is not awake, pulling up or anything. She looks like she is sleepy and trying to sleep.
Yesterday for pm nap I put her down at 3hrs20 (thought she seemed ut the day before at 3hrs15) after 40 min am nap. She played for almost 10 mins then fell asleep for an hour. She can def have pretty long awakes even after short nap.
This am I put her down at 3hrs55 and it took her 5 mins to peacefully fall asleep and she slept 1 hr6 min now. She can def handle 4 hrs for am.
Thanks
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Well, her awake is throwing me off. Last week she seemed to have decent naps either in the am or pm. This week I cannot figure it out. She is crying when I put her down and the am naps I have nursed her to sleep the last 2 mornings. She has napped under 25 mins each. Yesterday she fell asleep at 4hrs30 after putting her down a bit later and taking her awhile to fall asleep/nurse. She woke cranky so assume ot. Today I put her down at 3hrs55 because I thought maybe she has too much activity yesterday at 4hrs15. She cried for about 5 mins then I nursed her to sleep. She slept for about 20 mins, woke crying then was happy when I got her. I cannot figure it out! Ten for pm- yesterday I put down at 3hrs20 but she was nursed to sleep again and fell asleep at 3hrs40 and slept 18 mins. Assume ot. Today I put her down at 3hrs5mins and she cried for about 5 mins then put herself to sleep. (This was after a 20 min nap). We will see how she does. For am nap she seemed it for a couple of days which is why I increased to 4hrs15 but think it was too soon.
She has also still been doing the waking up around 4:30-5:45am. I have been going in sooner as you suggested but on sat she was up for 1hr15 mins before she went back down in crib. Then she slept for 2 more hours. The last coup,e of days I go in after about 5 mins and nurse and it has taken 40-1 hr to get her back in crib. She has not seemed as awake though as sat night/sun am. She goes back to sleep for an hour or two and usually wakes at 7:15-7:30. She is sleeping 9-10 hours straight then waking (most of the time seems sleepy). What could be causing this?
Thanks
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Hi
More questions- would appreciate if someone could give me their insight as I am clueless and frustrated. Last wek the 4hr awake seem to work and was giving good naps but this week she is fighting it and giving very short naps (18-36 min naps) and waking crying. So the last 2 days I pulled back to 3hrs45 thinking she might be ot. She has been putting herself to sleep in 3-4 mins but crying but it's a huge improvement as I was nursing her earlier this week to sleep for the am as she was crying a lot when I put her down. However, she is only sleeping 27 minutes and wakes crying. Is she ot? Today pd at 3hrs45, cried for 3 mins then slept 36 min but woke quietly and playing.
For the past 2 weeks she has been waking around 4:30-5:30 after 9-10 hours of sleep. I have let her chill then nursed and tried nursing then letting her chill. She is almost always up for at least an hour. If I let her chill for 30-40 mins then nurse she will fall back asleep for an hour or two. If I nurse her right away she chills in crib for 30-40 mins then usually fall back asleep for an hour or s. she has been waking for the most part around 7-7:30. Any idea what could be causing this? It doesn't seem like she wants to start the day when she wakes.
I am wondering if being awake for an hour or more after 9-10 hrs then sleeping 1-2 hrs more is making her tired in the am so she can't handle the long awake?
Today if she short naps I will put her down at 3 hrs (have been putting her down later so we don't have a crazy early bedtime but think she is so ot from less than an hours worth of naps each day this week that bet might be fine.
Any insight is appreciated. Not sure if I cut avk to 3hrs30 fr am or keep the 3hrs45 or go back to 4hrs. So confused.
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Can you please post your current EASY and her exact age? :)
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Mon
Wake-7:31
S-11:57-12:20
S-4:01-4:20
Bt-7:17
Tues
Wake 7:15
S-11:26-11:45
S-3-3:31
Bt-6:51
Wed
Wake-7:11
S-11:30-12:06
S-4:21-4:52
Bt-7:37
Thurs
Wake-6:45
S-10:32-10:59
S-2:41-3:01
Bt-6:04
Fri
Wake-7:09
S-10:59-11:35
S-2:54-3:17
Keep in mind every morning this week she has woken up for an hour around 4:30/5:30 and chills and nurses and back to sleep for an hour or two. She wakes after 9.5-10.5 hours of sleeping. She does not seem to want to start the day when she wakes as she seems tired or chilled out. (One day she did seem to want to wake but I just stayed with her for 1.5 hours and she went back to sleep for 2 hrs).
Today she has put herself to sleep for both naps which she hasn't done all week. I feel like she is ut when I put her down today. Am nap woke quietly and happy. Pm nap-cried for 10 mins then put herself to sleep. Woke after 22 mins crying. tried to nurse back to sleep by really crying so assume ot. She woke the same way yesterday for pm nap.
My LO is now 10 months today. This chain has been going on forever. It's evolved from night wakings to pd technique to naps. My questions again are awake time and naps- why does it seem to not work this week when last week 3hrs45/4 hrs was great and why the waking up for an hour in the early am then going back to sleep?
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If an EASY is working for a while and then suddenly baby start to nap short and wake early in the morning it usually indicates UT. If she was OT her EW would be with lots of crying.
I would work on extending the A times back to 4h and from there keep on increasing a bit till the morning nap is longer. are you aiming for the morning nap to be the long nap and the PM one to be capped? If you are then like I said I would work on extending the first A time *gradually* till her nap is 1.5h long or longer. I would increase by 15min every 3 days so she doesn't get OT and that she has enough time to get used to her new A time.
I would leave the second A time on the short side because we anyway aim for it to be capped so it's ok if she is slightly UT for this one.
When DS was this age I actually set the PM nap at 16 even if it was a shortish A time before it because I wanted it to be 45min till 16:45 and then BT was always at 19.
The 2-1 transition is not an easy one, I can't think of anyone here who didn't have issues while going through it, so you are doing ok, her routine just needs a bit tweaking and a bit playing around till we find the right A times.
HTH :)
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We tried 4 hrs and she cried and needed to be nursed to sleep. She also woke crying and under 30 mins.
I am trying 3 hrs45 again for a few days to see how she does. Te way she wakes, falls asleep a d the length makes me think ot so pulling back to see. On Monday we also tried 4 hrs15 thinking from the good naps the week before she seemed a bit ut. Fail- went terrible. The rest of the week was about 3hrs45 with mixed results but all hard going down, short naps and crying when awake. Yesterday she did 35 min nap and woke chilling- first time all week. Thought ut so today put down at 4 hrs- she really cried for 8 mins then I went in to nurse and she napped 20 mins and woke crying. Tried pd for pm nap at 2hrs45 because it seemed all week she was ot for pm nap when I tried putting her down at 3hrs5-3hrs30. She cried hard and I went to nurse to sleep. Slept 22 mins and woke really crying. She as woken for almost every nap crying.
At night since all week her naps total are less than 1 hr we are putting her down early. She seems to want to stay up for 2hrs45-3 hrs even with only less than 1 hrs worth f naps. Bedtime going down is peaceful and she puts herself to sleep in just a few minutes. She then sleeps for 9.5-11 hrs then wakes for an hour then usually sleeps for 1-2 hrs aain.
I knw you say she seems ut but the way she s waking and length seem ot. I tried pushing awake and she freaked. I have no idea what is going on. Luckily she is sleeping a lot at night but her naps are terrible. I am exhausted trying to figure her out. The 3hrs45 time was working at the beginning of aug then we went on vaca for 2 weeks with teething so awake was all off, then when we came back the 3hrs45 seemed to work although it seemed she was a bit ut, on suggestion went to 4 hrs for a few days and went well, then the next week freaking out when putting her down and under 30 min naps with lots of crying.
Any suggestions are appreciated. Thans
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If you want to stick to 3:45h for a few days it's totally fine.
I do think that she is ready for more A time but that's just the way it is - babies don't like it when we increase A times and often fighting it, that's why we always say that only on the 4th day of an increased A time you can make conclusions re A times. It just takes them time to get used to it.
11h at night is fine but anything under it is actually not enough for most babies so I would say something really needs to change in her routine, yk?
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I will do 3hrs45-4 hrs awake and see how it goes. I will stick with it for a few days. I guess I am confused because if she is ut at 3hrs45 shouldn't her naps still be a bit longer and the wake up nicer? She sleeps 18-25 mins and cries and cries when awake. Is that normal for awake increase?
Last night she woke at 1:30 and I nursed and fell asleep pretty much right away. Then at 5:00am as usual and was up for an hour (nursed her then too). I assume the 1 am awake was because she is so ot from the less than 1 hrs worth of naps for the last 2 weeks.
After a 20 min nap I have tried putting her down at 2hs45, 3hrs,3hrs15- nothing seems to work and the nap length is usually about 22 minutes with crying wake up. Could she need to go down after short nap at 2.5 hrs? I am confused because at night she wants to stay awake 2hrs45-3 hrs before peacefully going to bed. It would be strange that her awake is shorter for the pm nap than at bedtime?
Thanks
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So,just wanted to give you an update on today. The good news is that she put herself to sleep for both naps- she hasn't done that in awhile. The am nap I Luther down at 4 hrs and she fussed for a few minutes then fell asleep for 24 mins, woke quietly then fussed. I,eft her in crib for 10 mins to see if she would settle but she was just sitting and waiti g for me at the bottom of the crib. Pm nap I put her down at 3hrs15 and she fussed again for a few minutes then fell asleep for 28 mins, woke initially quietly then started crying. Got her right away and then she was hysterical- I think she was still a bit out of it and wanted to sleep more. She finally settled after a few minutes. Finally for by we had her down at 2hrs40ish. She was tired.
Bt- woke for the second day after 6/7 hrs sleep (she had been doing 9.5-10.5 hr stretches). First night nursed her as she was standing up and crying. Tonight I let her fuss for 5 mins as shewas laying down the whole time. She was quiet then for 30 minutes just awake but not really doing anything. She started crying then and I went in to do pd/sleepy phrase. I did this for 1 hr10 mins and finally nursed heras by this point she had been up for 1.5 hrs and she was having such a hard time settling. She finally went down after being up 1hr45 mins! I don't know if she will wake at her usual 5am (which I normally feed and she is awake for an hour but then sleeps for another hour or two). I hope she sleeps through!
So, several questions.
When I increase the awake is 22-30 min naps normal? Will that nap get longer as she gets use to the increase or if it stays 20-30 mins does that mean I need to increase it again or decrease it? She is putting herself to sleep against I feel like we might be in ballpark of appropriate awake except the very short naps.
This is week 2 of her getting less than an hours worth of naps each day so she is way ot. Is there anything I cando combat this build up of ot? I think this buld up of ot is causing the night waking after 6/7 hours down.
I am getting so frustrated trying to figure it out! Really appreciate the help.
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She sleeps 18-25 mins and cries and cries when awake.
That wouldn't necessarily indicate OT. Usually OT naps are 30-35min long. I would try and stick to 3:45h A time for a while and see if she settles into her A times. Maybe she needs more time than other babies do.
Have you considered discomfort? Teething or Reflux?
Last night she woke at 1:30 and I nursed and fell asleep pretty much right away. Then at 5:00am as usual and was up for an hour (nursed her then too). I assume the 1 am awake was because she is so ot from the less than 1 hrs worth of naps for the last 2 weeks.
OT NW usually happen in the first part of the night so it can actually be that she is really hungry.
At 5AM when she is awake for an hour, what is happening then? Is she crying? Chatting? Are you going in to her?
This is week 2 of her getting less than an hours worth of naps each day so she is way ot. Is there anything I cando combat this build up of ot?
If there is any AP that works for you then you could try that for a couple of days to let her catch up on sleep and then start again with PD.
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I started 4hrs yesterday. Are you saying to go back to 3hrs45 or just be consistent with one time for awhile? If so, I will stick with4 hrs for a few days as she was able to put herself to sleep. I had been doing 3hrs45 and getting hour naps but was encouraged to move to 4 hrs(she also seemed ut to me). Please clarify.
I don't think it is discomfort that is waking her. She cried/fuss at both early morning wakes. I only let her try to sooth for 5-10 mins on Sunday night then nursed and she went back to sleep. Last night she cried for 5 mins then laid there for about 25-30 before starting to cry. I did pd for 1hr10 mins but she just couldn't settle so I finally nursed her. She was up for 1 hr45 mins. Slept until 5:30, let her settle for a bit then nursed her and she was back asleep in about 40 mins for another hour and woke at 7:10. So she still woke at her normal 5ish. With loosing so much sleep last night should I put her down earlier for her nap?
Before the last two weird nights of multiple wakings when she woke at 5 she would fuss for a few mins then chill. I tried nursing her right when she woke and also after she was hanging out for 30-40 mins. Same results- up for at least an hour.
I have no idea when to put her down for any naps! What happened to the long 9.5-11 hour stretches? I can only assume ot since she barely sleep during the day. Unfortunately we can't do APOP as she only sleeps 30-40 mins in car, won't sleep in stroller and don't think she could sleep past a cycle in my arms. When they get chronically ot do you encourage to pull back on awake time or just keep the course and hope she can make up for sleep at night?
I also don't think she is hungry although she has been eating less during her day feeds but she is eating a lot of solids. Honestly if I would have known it was going to be 1 hr45 that she was awake this am I would have just nursed her! It's tough to know what to do when she does that extra nw because she knows how to fall back asleep and I think she is just ot. But if I nurse will she expect it and make it a habit?
Thanks
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I started 4hrs yesterday. Are you saying to go back to 3hrs45 or just be consistent with one time for awhile?
If you started doing 4h then great, stick with that for a while.
So she still woke at her normal 5ish. With loosing so much sleep last night should I put her down earlier for her nap?
I would follow her cues, some babies can handle normal A after short nights (DS was like that).
Is she waking up every night at 5? Could it be habitual?
Before the last two weird nights of multiple wakings when she woke at 5 she would fuss for a few mins then chill. I tried nursing her right when she woke and also after she was hanging out for 30-40 mins. Same results- up for at least an hour.
That sounds like a typical UT NW.
When they get chronically ot do you encourage to pull back on awake time or just keep the course and hope she can make up for sleep at night?
When CHRONICALLY ot I would do 1-2 days of catching up on sleep, AP or offering as much sleep as possible, even if it's just 40min naps, but to have loads of those, and then go back to the previous A time and stick with it.
You can of course go for EBT to give her an opportunity to tack. Not all babies do that, but many. And it doesn't work in one night, you need to give like 3-4 nights to see if EBT is working.
But if I nurse will she expect it and make it a habit?
Of course, if you are going to do it for a while, not once in a while. I start to think that this is also what is happening at the 5AM NW... I think she got used to eat then and needs it to go back to sleep.
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Thanks for the quick replies- I am going crazy trying to figure this out. So you think the 5am waking is ut? What do I do about that then? Just leave her and if she doesn't fall back asleep after an hour start the day? I hate to start the day so early that is the reason I was feeding because she would wake after 9.5-11 hours. Or do I try pd if she starts crying? I do think it might now be out of habit as well so what is the best Approach to handle it since she usually is not really crying.
I put her down again at 4 hrs2 mins this am and it took a few mins but no crying. She went down peaceful- we will see!
Do you think the night wakings could be because she has been having 11 hr days rather than12 because with less than an hours worth of naps we have to do an early bedtime.
Thanks!
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I am afraid I don't have the answers to everything, there are just things one needs to try out and see if they work. It could be that when her routine is better then her nights will be better as well and the EW will be gone.
Till then, the first thing I'd try is W2S for the 5AM WU (How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)) especially as it seems as the feeding doesn't actually work and she still stays awake. If that doesn't work (and it needs about a week - a week and a half to work) then I would simply not go to her if she is not crying. If you are feeding or going in to settle then you might be interrupting her trying to settle herself back to sleep. If she needs your help falling back to sleep then she'll let you know :) and then I would do PD.
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Hi
So, we have been doing around 4 hrs awake for the last week for am nap. She has gone down easy and within 5 mins and her np lengths have been: 24, 57, 37, 47, 58 mins. A couple of days we tried 4hrs10/15 and had 31 and 27 min naps. I think the 4 hrs has def given better naps, faster going down and good wake up. However, with those nap lengths and how she wakes up makes me think ut so that is why we tried longer awakes but then got very short naps. Should we continue 4 hrs and just take 40-50 min naps or try to push her to 4hr15 and expect maybe very short naps at the beginning but hope they get longer with time? I am nervous to do it because I absolutely cannot figure out her awake for pm nap of she has a short am nap. I feel like we have tried putting her down anywhere from 2hrs45 to 3hrs45 with the same results- very short naps and crying when waking. Can't figure out awake when she short naps and then trying to short nap her of she does take a long nap has been tough. She stays up 2hrs45-3hrs15 after pm nap to bed depending on her naps during the day so we really can't do a whole full wake from am nap to pm nap if she takes an hour long nap without putting her to bed so late. What are you suppose to do in this situation?
Regarding nights, she is waking anywhere from 4am-5:30am. I have been letting her chill or fuss for a bit then usually nursing Herron 10-15 mins then putting her down completely awake. She takes 15-20 mins then to fall asleep but she doesn't cry just lays there and maybe moves around. Typically up for 45-1hr.
I do feel like she is transitioning to 1nap but not sure how to handle it if the longest nap she takes is an hour! I guess it just ride it out until her am stretch she can stay up for close to 4 hrs30? (And pm too)
She is 10 months.
Thanks
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After 4 hrs am awake she slept 1hr11 mins. She only had 10 hours sleep the night before (sun) where else on sat night she slept 13!
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Should we continue 4 hrs and just take 40-50 min naps or try to push her to 4hr15 and expect maybe very short naps at the beginning but hope they get longer with time?
When you are increasing A times there are usually 2-3 days of OT naps, so I would give it a shop again. Some babies take up to a week to get used to a new A time.
so we really can't do a whole full wake from am nap to pm nap if she takes an hour long nap without putting her to bed so late. What are you suppose to do in this situation?
At this age there is anyway not enough hours in the day for her to do 2 full A times, 2 naps and another A time before BT. Most babies start the 2-1 transition at her age (she is around 10m, right?) - From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older) so I would say it's ok for now to aim for one good nap and one short nap. Maybe increasing the first A time will help with the nap.
I also found it very difficult to find the right A time before the second nap so I just set it at 16 and that was that. I stopped stressing about A times and DS set his body clock, we were all happy!
Regarding nights, she is waking anywhere from 4am-5:30am. I have been letting her chill or fuss for a bit then usually nursing Herron 10-15 mins then putting her down completely awake. She takes 15-20 mins then to fall asleep but she doesn't cry just lays there and maybe moves around. Typically up for 45-1hr.
This again makes me think UT...
I agree that she starts the 2-1 transition but it's only the beginning and it will be a while till she will be on one nap. Most babies drop to one nap between 12 and 18m.
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Today I put her down at4 hrs awake again and she napped 28 mins and woke crying. She did wake early at 6:15so maybe she was tired? Her naps at 4 hrs awake have varied from 1hr11 yesterday to28 today! I don't know if this means e awake time is good for her and she is still settling or if it means I should increase it.
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If you are not sure then I would still wait for a few more days and stick to the 4h A time.
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Hi
It's been awhile since I posted but wanted to ask a couple of quick questions. We are definitely in the 2-1 transition with our 11 month old. We have been doing 4-4:10 awake and she has been giving about an hour nap. She wakes fine but it seems like she wants to sleep longer. I think we probably need to increase awake- what do you think?
Our LO still is waking around 4:30-5:30 and 50 percent of the time she can go back to bed but the other times she is ready to start the day. When she does go back to bed she is awake (sometimes in and out) for an hour or 1 1/2 hrs then will sleep until 7-7:30. These wake ups are after sleeping 8.5-10.5 hours depending on when she went to bed.
The other question is about bedtime. Even if she has a 30 min afternoon nap she does not seem to want to go to bed until at least 3hrs15-45. Because of this it makes it very hard to have her do a reasonable bedtime. Any advice on how to handle this? If she naps an hour she wants to be up for another 4 hrs. Se is hard to nap undertired.
Thanks
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Could you please post how your day looks like now? It will be easier for me to answer about the BT question if I can see her routine.
Sometimes it's not the first A time that needs tweaking, but the second and then the first nap also gets fixed. Also, when A times are getting very high and you need a full A time before BT there is not much time for the PM nap anymore and then you can slowly reduce the time of it, like from 40min to 30, then 20, 10 and then take it out completely and have her only on one nap.
Do you think she is UT for her first nap? Does she go down easily?
The EW is connected to her routine, by the sound of it. We can try and tweak things and see if it helps with the EW.
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Hi
Mon
Awake 8:22
S-11:43-12:18
S-3:06-3:35
Bt-7:14
Tues
Awake 5:44
S-10:20-11:18
S-3:18-4:15
Bt-8:01
We'd
Awake 7:26
S- 11:31-12:28
S-4:08-4:37
Bt-7:51
Thurs
Awake 7:27
S-11:47-12:14
S-3:41-4:07
Bt-7:50-5:30
Fri
Awake 7:47
S-10:57-11:38
S-3:25-3:45
Bt-6:56
Sat
Awake 6:55
S-11-11:59
S-4:01-4:29
Bt-8:06
Sun
Awake 7:31
S-11:43-12:28
S-3:33-4:04
Bt-7:36
Mon
Awake 8:27
S-12:56-1:50
Bt-6:22-6:44, awake and nursed and back around 7
The week I posted she went back to sleep after nursing or on her own (she will be up for an hour)all but one day(mon night). I am letting her fuss/cry if she wakes again as I wasn't able to with MIL visiting. Also if she has less than 10 hours I am likely to nurse back. She is usually waking anywhere from 4:30-6. Sometimes she seems tired and other times awake. I don't want to do wake to sleep as I do not know when she will wake as there is a range but 5ish is e norm. Is there a way to take care of this if it is habitual waking by just letting her fuss? She goes down great- will hang and chill in the crib for 5-25 mins without a peep. Usually takes about 10 mins to fall asleep. She sleeps straight through around 5ish so usually 8.5-10.5 hours depending on when she went down for night.
Putting her down in the am around 4hrs-4:20 is pretty peaceful. Today she fussed for about 10 mins then went to sleep. Most days it's a little fuss then down. When she wakes she might cry for a bit, then settle. Other times she just pops up and chills in crib. Most times she is happy right away when I get her and other times she will be a little grumpy. I think she may be ut due to the length of her naps and she doesn't seem too ot- I can see her yawning once she is in crib but not often before I put her down (might see one or two yawns). I know signs are not reliable but she does seem to yawn when she is finally in crib.
Like I said before I think we have the by figured out which is nice. It seems like if she naps 30 mins or more for pm nap she will go to sleep at around 3hrs40-45. If she naps 20 mins or so she can go down around 3hrs10-15. With that said there doesn't seem to be much time for 2 naps even if the one nap is an hour. If she naps an hour I hope she only does 30 mins at most so she can get decent bt. During this transition is it normal for LO to either go to bed very early (10-10.5 hr day) or very late if two naps (13-14 hr day)?
As you an see we tried one nap today because if we would have tried a second nap she wouldn't have gone down at the earliest 5-5:30 as she woke at 1:50. A nap at 5 or 5:30 is too late if she is staying awake 3hrs40 mins. Even if we woke her at 20 mins she would have gone to bed around 9pm. She was obviously ot as she woke after 20 mins (first time in months!). Please advise. Part of the problem is we let her sleep until 8:30 this am. She woke at 6 and I let her fuss for 30 mins then turned light on to nurse for morning but she was so sleepy and she fell asleep again. We should prob wake her around 7-7:30 every day if we are trying to get her a decent bedtime, right? I also have a hard time waking her from pm nap as I feel like she should sleep if she is tired but letting her sleep is pushing her bedtime.
Again, LO is 11 months.
Thanks for your help. Sorry for all the questions. Would love to get this figured out since her bt (except for early wake) is going well.
Thanks
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All what you are describing is very normal for the 2-1 transition, so you are not alone and you are not doing anything wrong.
The way I would go forward IIWY is push her first nap a bit later, so perhaps stick with 4:15h A time for 3 days, then 4.5h for three days. Then we can see because she might be able to do even more than that. I know that one some days you ARE doing that already but I think we would need to be a bit more consistent with it to figure out her right a times. At the same time I would start and shorten her PM nap.
I can understand what you are saying here:
I also have a hard time waking her from pm nap as I feel like she should sleep if she is tired
but there is no way around it - we have to help them go through the transition.
If she naps an hour I hope she only does 30 mins at most so she can get decent bt.
And waking her will also help with that ^^^, she is not in control when she wakes up, you'd need to do it for her.
If she will have shorter PM naps then she wouldn't need a full A time before BT like she does now because the "not enough" sleep in the afternoon will make her tired enough to go down at a reasonable time, aiming for a 12h day.
When going through the 2-1 transition EBT is your best friend! Don't be afraid to cut some days short because you feel she is accumulating OT. I would say that as a first trial I would go rather for an EBT then stretching a day to 13-14 because one needs to fit a second nap in there
I don't think that her NW is habitual, because an habitual waking happens at the same time every night, so anyway W2S won't work. I still think that the NW is related to her routine and might get easier when her A times and naps are sorted.
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Hi
We have been doing 4hrs40 mins this past week and she has gone down great but still is taking 1hr naps. She has been waking around 6-6:30 so much better than earlier. The problem is though that she has been doing 14 hour days. If she wakes at 6 trying to do one nap is too hard as it would be pushing her to stay up and go to bed at 5! So we have been driving to get her to nap 20-30 mins for a 2nd nap but it leads to 14 hour days. I think doing this all week caught up with her as Friday night she woke at 4 and was up for an hour (I nursed too). I tried putting her down at 4hrs55 which was a mistake after having an interrupted night. She played for about 15 mins then cried and cried. Nursed to sleep and she slept 25 mins. I think if she wakes early and for a significant amount of time before going back down she can't handle the who.e activity.
Today I put her down at 4hrs45 and she slept a little over 1 hr and woke great. I will keep up the 4hrs45-5 hrs(hope to push 5 hrs soon).
I guess I am just stumped on how to handle the transition when she takes 1 hr naps and to do a second nap it makes her day 14 hours because she is waking around 5:45-6:15 on average. Just keep doing this until I can get her stretched to at least 5 hours or she has a longer nap than 1 hour?
Thanks!
Sara Joy
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I don't understand how you day stretches to 14h ???
6 WU
6-10:45 A
10:45-11:45 Nap
16-16:20 CN
19 BT
She really doesn't need a full CN in the afternoon if she has a reasonable BT.
I wouldn't push the first A time anymore for now, I think she is giving you OT naps. I would let it settle a bit and then try and push again and reduce the CN to 10min or even get rid of it.
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Example from last week
Tues
Awake-5:34
S-10-11:02
S-3:09-3:34
Bt-7:07
We'd
Awake-6:15
S-10:46-11:10
S-3:25-3:51
Bt-7:31
Thurs
Awake6:20
S-11-11:56
S-3:56-4:19
Bt-8:10
Fri
Awake 6:10
S-10:53-12:01
S-4:10-4:30
S-8:08
I am doing car rides to get the cn in and have been waking her at around 20 mins. We begin bt routine around 2hrs45 from last nap but as you can see even witha 20 min nap she doesn't fall asleep until 3hrs30-45 even though I put her in the crib around 3hrs-3hrs20. She will play and hang out and not make a sound for usually about 10 mins or so and falls asleep great.
So if I am keeping her up about 5 hrs, 1 hour long nap, 4 hrs later one car ride 20-30 min cn, up for 3hrs30 after cn that is 13.5 hours.yesterday tried a car nap around 3 hrs after 1st nap and she did fall asleep for 30 mins so I am going to try 3hrs again for cn. In the past after a 25-30 min am nap I can put her down for pm nap and she can fall asleep around 4 hrs(I put her in earlier but she just plays and fusses for up20-25 mins) so a car np works best. I think it is hard for her to take a reAlly ut nap but it seems to work in the car.
So, with that schedule of her waking at 6ish in the am- how do you recommend I proceed? We tried keeping her up once 4.5 hrs after a 55 min am nap (when she woke at around 8:15 one morning so it wasn't t too early). Anyhow, we kept her up 4.5hours and put her down around 6:20 and she was way ot. Nursed her back and she was down for night after 7ishafter waking after 25 mins. Once she woke and we let her try to settle then finally nursed she was down for the night. I think 4.5 hours is too long after 55 min nap.
Thanks for your help. I feel like we are almost there!
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If that's the case then you would need to stretch A times in the morning tiny bit more and shorten the PM CN to 10min. I would honestly try and set BT at a reasonable hour (with a 6WU I would do it at 19) and insist on sleep then. If she doesn't fall asleep and just lies there and chills that's ok, but she needs to be in bed by then.
1:20h sleep a day is not enough so I really think she will go down ok for the night without a full A time before BT, but if you think she won't then the only way is to shorten the PM nap even more.
The 2-1 transition can easily get stuck, that's why we need to keep on helping them all the day through it. And there is always OT when going to one nap, it's not something you can avoid. Her 1h nap in the morning WILL get longer after she has been on one nap for a while because her body clock will know that there is only one nap to rely on and will keep her asleep for as long as she needs.
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Hi
It's been a couple of weeks since I last wrote. We were battling sickness then daylight savings and I think we are finally getting back to normal. I think daylight savings adjustment for the most part is fine. However, we are still crazy with naps. Before sickness we were doing 5 hrs awake the sleep 1 hr-1 hr20 mins then bedtime (so 1 nap a day). However, this week it has been crazy. Yesterday she was exhausted after 3 hrs and I nursed almost to sleep and she slept 1hr45 mins! Today she slept in until 8:15 (after being up for 1 Hr 5:20-6:20). She went down on her own at 5hrs30 (put her down T 5hrs10 but she banged her head on the crib and I had to tend to her).
Like I said we were sick last week so our eas was a bit off but here's the last few days
Fri
Wake 7:07
S-11:03-12:09
S-3:57-4:22
Bt-7:45
Sat
Wake 6:38
S-11:34-12:40
S-4:15-4:43
Bt-8:31
Sun
Wake 6:37
S-11:48-12:23
S-3:33-4:05
Bt-7:22
(1stday of daylight savings)
Mon
Wake- 6:08
S-11:19-12:29
S-3:17-3:49
Bt-7:21
Tues
Wake 6:20
S-9:29-11:12
S-3:18-3:47
Bt-7:30
We'd
Wake 8:17
S-1:47-2:16
S-4:19-4:45
Bt-7:55
Most of the 2nd naps are in the car. She was waking in the night at least once at very random times being up for 20-1 brand I have been nursing. I always give her 5-10 mins to try to fall back asleep. Last night for the first time ll week she did do a almost 10 hr stretch the woke for an hour then slept another 2 hrs. The rest of the week she was doing 4-6 hr stretches.
I
The 1hr-1hr15 min naps make me think she is ut but when I push her out 10 mins or so she still naps the same. She wakes hooy and chill or crying- random. Should I just keep 5 hours and eventually her 1 hr naps will get longer or keep pushing her out longer in the am? What about her sleeping so long after 3 hrs yesterday?' So confused.
I am tying to do a set bedtime around 7:30-8 (put down around 7:15-7:30 with asleep 7:30-8:00 if she takes late nap). Should I do set naps rather than awake time?
Thanks for any input you have.
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She is about 1yo now, right?
I really think that putting her back on 2 naps have been messing with the length of the nap.
I would try and push A time gradually to what it used to be and reduce the PM nap to 20min and then perhaps 10min and then drop it all together.
You need to give her quite a long time on one nap till her body clock sets and knows it only has one nap a day to rely on.
Only then, if things don't work, I would try and set the nap.
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Do I keep the 5 hrs-5 hrs10 min for awhile even though it has been only giving 1hr-1hr20 min naps? Are you thinking if I do only 1 nap and/or 10-20 min 2nd nap that 1st nap after 5 hrs awake will get longer than an hour?
As of now her 2nd car nap is usually only 25-30 mins. She seems to be set on about a 7:30 bedtime no matter when her 2nd catnap was or how long. Today she napped 1 hr then a 30 min catnap in car after 3 hrs. Put her to bed 3 hrs30 mins after catnap at 7:20 and it took her 10 mins to fall asleep quietly at 7:30.
When she wakes at 6pm it makes it a long day if she only naps 1 hr and 30 min catnap and she won't go to sleep earlier to make a shorter day. Example- today she woke at 6 and fell asleep at 7:30pm. We will see how she does tonight. The last week she has been waking at least once a night.
Thanks!
Sara Joy
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that 1st nap after 5 hrs awake will get longer than an hour?
Yes, but it might take a very long time. The transition is very difficult and very slow, but it doesn't mean one is doing something wrong, just that baby needs more time.
But at the same time, if you say that she is doing ok on a 1:20h nap and another CN in the PM, goes to bed well for the night, no NW, no EW, then I wouldn't necessarily drop the CN all together. You can as well stretch the first A time a little bit more, perhaps by 10min and see if it helps.
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Hi
I am beyond frustrated these days. My LO is now having a hard time falling asleep and only doing 30-35 min naps at 5 hrs-5hr10. She will occasionally do about an hour but wakes for a few mins crying after 30 mins then cn so teimester fall back asleep. She was doing 1 hr naps and going down smooth. Is she ot? I have he to nurse her for naps as she is crying and can't settle. Today she woke after 35 mins and let her cry for 10 mins but then it really escalated. She was hysterical for the next 10-15 mins even after I turned on lights, walked to other room, etc.
With the 30-35 minnaps after 5 hrs awake I do a car nap and hope she is sleepy enough to fall asleep after 2-3 hrs. So far she has been able to fall asleep around 3 hrs after first nap. I may have to drive 20-30 mins but she usually falls asleep for 20-30 mins. Today I had to wake her after 20 mins as it was 4:20 and I was concerned about bedtime. I thought she would be exhausted so I tried to put er down earlier (around 3 hrs) and she was hysterical. I brought her out and let her play. I did this twice. It basically took an hour for her to fall asleep (letting her play). After about 3hrs40 mins up shelet me ly er down and she was fine and played quietly for about 15 mins then finally went to sleep. Usually she does stay up 3hrs30-4hrs after 2nd catnap. It's so annoying because I am trying to put her down earlier (for naps and bedtime but it is not working). This is the 2nd night I tried to put her down earlier than normal but by the ti e she fell asleep shewas up light a normal night.
The other issue is that she has been having 2wake ups during the night! Usually one arou d 11-12 and then another 3-4 hrs later. She is doing 4-5 hr stretch the first hall then 3-4 the second half. I nurse briefly and she goes down easy for first wake and will usually be up for 10-15 mins quietly for the second wake. I have been going to her pretty immediately as my mother in law was in town and I did t want to wake her.
So she is having terrible naps crying when she wakes and multiple night wakingsbut going down eventually peacfully for bedtime. I assume ot? I don't think it is teething or discomfort. Do I go back to 4-4.5 hr awake for first nap and start over again? So frustrating!
It's hard too because if I keep her up for 5plus hours for am nap and she ny naps 30-35 mins then it makes the afternoon tough. Try to do late nap like today ending at 4:20 then her not going to bed until 8 or skip pm nap and try to put her down around 6 (she woke at1:15 after35 min nap)?
Thanks for your help.
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How old is she now?
The 2-1 transition is a really hard one, I know, and I feel for you. But you WILL figure this out.
I am not sure at all that she is OT, but it's really hard to tell because everything you describe can be either OT or UT. I would try a few days with shorter a time in the morning and see if it help, but if not then there might be something else going on.
Have you considered SA?