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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: AbbaG on September 13, 2013, 10:56:04 am

Title: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 13, 2013, 10:56:04 am
Hi.

My son wakes most nights after one sleep cycle after we put him down for bed (so 40 mins later). This has been happening for quite a few weeks and happens roughly 5-6 out of 7 days. If he needs to be resettled its generally a matter of rolling him onto his side and he passes out back to sleep, or after a few minutes of grizzle crying he'll put himself back to sleep.

Also, every morning he wakes at 5am (ish) and generally puts himself back to sleep (or we move him across in his to the side of his cot so that he can roll himself onto his side (he loves sleeping on his side), he then wakes again at around 6/6.30, and after 10ish minutes puts himself back to sleep - we then wake him at 7ish. (I'm sure he's not hungry at these wakings as my hubby gets him up, changes his nappy and brings him to me and we have a little chat before I feed him - it's not like he's crying to be fed from the time he gets up).

He is fed every 3.5 / 4 hours and has 2 to 2 hours 10 minutes wake time between sleeps. He's fed once overnight - when he wakes around 12/1.

Today our naps went like this -
Down 9.10
Wake 9.50
Back to sleep 10.37
Up 11.17

Down 1.15 awake 1.55
Back 2.05 woke 2.25
Rested till 2.45 (lay there opening and closing eyes but just staring)

Down 4.20 up 4.55

Bed time is 7pm- 7.10pm

Tonight he again woke after one cycle, and after 5 or so minutes I went I help him settle and when I got to  his door he was suddenly quiet - asleep!

Any thoughts on the night waking after 1 sleep cycle? Anything I could to help him to get through this cycle without waking / crying?

Also, what can I do about the early waking?

Thanks in advance - pls let me know if you need any further details.



Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 13, 2013, 22:23:10 pm
How old is he?

Guessing ~4-5 months from the routine. He's up for 2hr off a catnap which is not as restorative as a long nap. Waking early on in the night is a classic sign of OT at bedtime which is pretty likely given the A time after the CN.

Given my guess at the age, I'd just feed at the 5am waking - pretty normal to still need 2 feeds at night at this age and the waking a sleep cycle after going back to sleep suggests he's hungry enough to wake as he goes through the light sleep stage of the sleep cycle. Maybe not hungry enough to scream til he's fed but hungry enough to wake him.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 14, 2013, 06:44:33 am
Hi. You're correct, he's just over 5 months.

I hadn't thought about being OT from the CN - will try to get him down closer to 6.30 when his CN falls earlyish.

Wrt the waking at 5 and 6, do you really think its hunger? As I said, I'd ruled that out as he doesn't seem hungry at 7am....

Thanks!
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 14, 2013, 10:15:13 am
Ok, at just over 5 months, his A time probably needs to be higher than 2hr - closer to 2:15-2:30 - increasing that could well knock out your EW as that can also happen as a result of LO knowing he'll get a nap fairly early on in the day. The other sign for that is the short nap and long resettle for that first nap of the day.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: weaver on September 14, 2013, 13:53:58 pm
My LO1 used to do this like clockwork.  It was definitely OT, he needed a slightly earlier bedtime. 
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 16, 2013, 06:13:04 am
Hi. Thanks heaps for your advice so far ladies.

Today I tried putting him down for his naps a little later -

Nap 1 I put him down 2 hours and  15 mins after waking (he went to sleep 6 minutes later) ... He woke 30 mins later, resettled after 10 minutes and slept for another 50 minutes = total 120 minutes

Nap 2 I put him down 2 hours and 10 minutes after waking (he went to sleep 8 minutes later) .. He woke 30 minutes later, resettled after 10 minutes and slept for another 20 minutes, back to sleep 15 minutes later for just 12 minutes.... In between each short nap was a fair few tears. = total 62 minutes

So... I'm thinking that in both cases I put him down too late - do you agree? It seems that 2 hours - or maybe 2 hours 5 minutes may be as good as it gets for us at this stage
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 16, 2013, 09:06:16 am
Nope, I think 2:15 is pretty good - I'd expect to resettle at 30min for the first 2-3 days of a jump in A times as he gets used to it. The fact you could resettle pretty quickly means he's not drastically OT from that increase.

He woke 30 mins later, resettled after 10 minutes and slept for another 50 minutes = total 120 minutes
Not sure this maths adds up. 30 + 50 = 80... did I miss something? 1.5hr nap basically in my book.

What I think is that you will likely end up going a little further than 2:15 once he's settled onto that time for a few days. He may get a little OT as you increase but as he gets used to the new A time, he will be fine. xx
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 16, 2013, 09:15:16 am
Thanks for the response (and the help!)

You're right - of course! Not sure where my adding came from!  :D

Does the second nap seem okay? To me that one definitely seemed like way too OT?

For his CN today I put him down at 3.20 - he went to sleep at 3.36 and slept until 4.04 - so 28 minutes (I think I have my adding right this time!).

The whole day seems based around 30 (ish) minute sleeps...

So your advice is that I stick with 2.15?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 16, 2013, 09:41:33 am
Yeah, the second nap often goes to pot a bit on the first day of new A times. You could stick with 2hr for the second one for a couple of days and then extend that one once the first A time is bedded down at 2:15 if you think that'd suit your LO better but I'm a get it over and done with kinda gal and it will come out in the wash in 2-3 days anyway so if you're cool with the resettling, I'd do it that way and you'll have your new routine sorted in half the time ;)

Yes, give 2:15 a go for 4 days and see how you're going then.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 16, 2013, 20:55:21 pm
Last night he again woke 40 minutes in - but I expected that as he went to sleep at 6.50 - a bit too far beyond the CN.

From there he woke and I fed him at 12.

He then woke at 3, 4, 5 and 6.30. (At 3 and 4 he was back asleep after a tiny grizzle within a minute or 2, at 5 it took a bit longer as I Checked his nappy which woke him up as he was going back to sleep).

This morning he was chomping at the bit for a feed when we got him up.

So now I'm confused... Does he need 2 feeds overnight after all? If yes, why 3 hours later if he can go much longer during the day? And why is this the only morning where he's very obviously been wanting to bed fed ASAP? And how is it that just over a week ago he pretty much STTN (one night be woke at 5.30. One at 6.30)
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 16, 2013, 22:13:39 pm
Could just be a growth spurt.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 18, 2013, 01:38:28 am
So, it seems that 2.15 is a great awake time, we're getting 2 x near to 1.5 hour sleeps (always with a small wake in the middle).

So now to fix that night time sleep!

I'll repost with where we are at a little later - I'm hoping you can assist!

Thanks so much for your help so far!
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 18, 2013, 05:15:06 am
Small wake in the middle could be an indication to increase A time just a touch more but definitely give it 3-4 days to settle in first before you go tweaking again. Glad things are looking up :)

Keep in mind it will take a few days of naps being better before it affects night wakings.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 20, 2013, 00:08:09 am
Thanks Becj for your help so far.

Just a couple of extra details -

I feed him (bf) at around 7,11, 3 and 6.15 during the day
He has 2 solid meals at around 8 and 5.15 daily (not terribly large though)
He doesn't have any props
He does have a comforter - a 'taggie'

We had around 6 weeks of sleep regression which we brought to an end from the night of 3rd September by allowing some crying (definitely not a really upset cry - any upset cry we go to him and help to resettle) and aiming for just 1 feed overnight.

The 2nd night he woke around 10 - left to SS and then didn't wake until 4.50, the 3rd night he again woke around 10, left to SS and then didn't wake until 6.30am.

From then he went back to wanting a feed generally somewhere from 11.30 to 1.30 (which I'm okay with as he only feeds 4 times during the day). He's always hungry at this wake.

After the couple of near STTNs and the above feeds were added he was waking around 4,5,6 (ish) as mentioned in a previous post.

As you can see below I fed Tues, he really wasn't that interested, Weds I fed 1 side and with Thurs. in all cases I'm certain he's not terribly hungry - his cry is very different to the cry when he wakes between 11 and 1 for a feed and when I take him to the seat I feed him in he'd be happy to just sit there with me.

As i said above, In the past few days our naps have been much better but nights are still really weird I'll give u a rundown of the past 3 days -

Tuesday

Woke at 6.30 - fed then also

Nap 1 - down 8.45 - 8.49 asleep woke 10.02 back about 10.20, woke 10.30
=1.13

Nap 2 - down 12.44  asleep before 12.55 woke 13.24 back sleep 13.36 woke 14.27
= 1.20

Nap 3 - in pram 4.55 to 5.15
= 20

Solids 5.25, feed 6.05

Bed 6.40, asleep by 7.10
- Stirred a few times, cried about 10 put self back to sleep
- Woke and Fed 12.30
- Woke and Fed 4.00 - wasn't terribly interested.
- Woke 6.30 put self back to sleep

We woke DS at 7

Wednesday -

Nap 1 - down at 9.20 asleep 9.25 woke 10.05, back to sleep 10.11 Woke 11.07
= 1.34

Nap 2 - in pram (mothers group) - 25 minutes

Nap 3 - sleep 15.26 wake 3.53 back 15.58 (ish)  woke 16.12  16.22 woke 16.59
= 1.18

Bed 7.00
- Woke 7.40, 8.20, 9.00. In all cases put self back to sleep
- Fed 1.00 and 4 (just 1 side - around 5 mins)
- Woke 6, Put self back to sleep
- we woke DS at 7

Thursday

Nap 1 - 9.30 to 10.36
= 1.06

Went out so next nap late

Nap 2 -  1 .13 - 2.00 & 2.08 - 2.20
= 59

Nap 3 - 5.05 to 5.25

Asleep for the night 19.11
- Didn't wake until 11.30 ish - fed
- Woke 2 ish too close to last feed, left to SS
- Woke 4.15 - left 10 mins, almost resettled a number if times but fed 1 side (around 5 mins)
- When put back down was quiet 5 mins, then cried for a number of minutes
- Didn't wake again until 7am (7.07)

I'm really at a loss.... If I don't feed him that 2nd time overnight he seems to wake a number of times thereafter, if I do feed him (even though he doesn't seem to really want it) he takes some time to SS but doesn't wake again - and last night he first woke around 2.15 after his nightly feed - there's no way he was hungry!

What do you think?


 
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 20, 2013, 03:30:09 am
Ok, I think shift that solids meal from 5:15 to 12 - solids just before bed can result in wakings in the night and solids just before that BT milk feed can reduce that feed and result in extra/earlier wakings.

I think also that most of those naps look like he needs more A time, just another 10-15min.

It is getting colder where you are? Just wondering, as 4/5/6am wakings on the sleep cycle can be related to cold sometimes too - coldest part of the day.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 20, 2013, 03:59:15 am
Hey - thanks again!

I'm in Melbourne, so it's actually warming up here (slowly!). Also, we have the central heating set on 18 24/7 so I suspect cold is not an issue.

We have around 2.15 A time each time (which we just extended to) - you think another increase?
His DOB is 9 April.

Today his naps were

1st nap - down 9.25, asleep 9.28, woke 10.44 - no wake in between.

2nd nap - down 12.58, asleep 1.05 - 1.40, just went back to sleep at 2.00 - the longest its taken all week I think!

All naps used to revolve around an exact 40 minute cycle - this seems to have changed dramatically in the past few weeks - I assume this is normal?

Your point around solids is an interesting one - as the 2 nights that he near slept through we didn't feed solids at all. I'll give your suggestion a go. Thanks. I was thinking that we'd perhaps go to 3 solids meals once he hits 6 months - do you think this is a good or bad idea?

Thanks so much - your advice really is priceless and you have my word that I will donate to BW ASAP!  ;D


Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 20, 2013, 04:05:57 am
Most babies don't get to 3 solids meals til 9 months - its all about tasting and fun until they're 12 months and milk has more calories than solids anyway, so milk is far more important now. A lot of mums have to cut solids back when bubs start waking more at night because they're hungry.

Naps are definitely changing for the better. 1:15 solid is a better nap but still less than the 2 sleep cycles and indicative of UT. Less UT than the constant 40min wakings but still I reckon increasing your A times is a good idea.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 20, 2013, 05:37:01 am
Thanks re solids.

Wrt the second nap today - he slept 1.05 to 1.40, 2 to 2.05 and 2.15 to 3.05. So if I'm counting right, a total of 1.20...

A few times this week we've had longish naps but broken up by 1 or 2 wakings - I assume his is not as restorative as being unbroken but is it restorative enough? Can it be followed by 2.15 / 2.30 awake time?
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 21, 2013, 09:35:11 am
Its not as restorative but its ok to stick with your new A time. I think those breaks should disappear once you hit the right A time. Don't go any higher than 2:30 unless you stick at that for at least a week though, sometimes these new A times need time to settle and mums push too far in eagerness to get it sorted and end up with a right mess.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 22, 2013, 05:10:14 am
2.30 seems to be working well thanks - will stick to this for at least a week as you have recommended.... Still have the occasional break but mostly working well.

Moving solids for the last couple of days seems to have helped too..
Friday he woke 10ish 12ish (SS) and fed at 2.30, woke 6.45
Sat he woke 10ish (SS) 12ish (needed help to settle), fed 3.15, woke 7.15

Now to cut out the 10ish and 12ish wakings...

Thanks again for your advice, clearly it's really helped.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 22, 2013, 06:05:11 am
That's ok. Those wakings may settle once the naps settle too. Glad you've seen some improvement :)
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on September 22, 2013, 20:15:06 pm
Becj86 - I just had to let you know ...

Yesterday we had a 1.5 hour nap (without breaks!) yay!

& last night he woke at 11 - needed some help to settle, and didn't wake again! It's now 6.11 and although I can see him stirring on the monitor I haven't hearda peep from him yet!

How amazing is that??!!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on September 22, 2013, 22:04:52 pm
Brilliant ;D
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on October 02, 2013, 10:11:08 am
Hi BecJ86,

Daytime naps are still going well, we tend to get 2 hours, 1.5 hours and 30 mins / 20 mins (generally via APOP) for our 3 naps.

Nights are still hit or miss, we have the occasional STTN, nights with 1 wake up and some nights with lots of wake ups... Hoping this will get better through time.

Hoping you can answer a couple of questions for me...

1) We're still at 2.5 hours awake time... What signs should I look for to extend this?

2) Our last nap falls either from 5 (till 5.20/30) - if in cot (generally from EW) or from 5.30ish (till 5.50/6.00) - would be via APOP in pram as previous nap ended about 3.30.
He still occasionally wakes 40 minutes into his night time sleep... Like tonight, but I don't think he was OT tonight as today naps went as below. Is it possible to be UT for night-time sleep?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on October 02, 2013, 22:20:07 pm
Days are looking better. Signs for increasing A time could be shortening naps, waking 45/50 or 1:20ish into naps regularly, nights getting progressively shorter. Basically by 6-7 months, he'll be at 3hr A time or thereabouts. You can fairly easily increase your A time by 5-10min every week or two and keep on top of it that way if you're having trouble catching the patterns/signs.

He still occasionally wakes 40 minutes into his night time sleep... Like tonight, but I don't think he was OT tonight as today naps went as below. Is it possible to be UT for night-time sleep?
This can be overtiredness, though the behaviour is pretty frantic/frustrated when LO wakes from OT early in the night. Could also be overstimulation - often happens when dad comes home an hour or so before bed and plays boisterously with LO. Could be UT, especially now he's getting better naps you could probably extend that last A time after the CN to 1:45 or 2hr.
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: AbbaG on October 03, 2013, 01:03:51 am
Interestingly our first nap today was just 1.18, after consistently 2 hours for a bit over a week now. 15 minutes later he hasn't cried but also hasn't gone back to sleep...

Think I'll try a 10/ 15 minute jump tomorrow - do you agree?

Thx
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: becj86 on October 03, 2013, 01:54:46 am
I would. You can always go back if things don't settle in a week but I think there are enough signs that he needs that extra jump.

This may be helpful: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
Title: Re: Waking after 1 sleep cycle at night
Post by: lauradj on October 11, 2013, 03:01:09 am
Just to add to the post.  I was having the same issues with the waking after 30-40 at BT and Layla (another moderator here at BW) suggested it was OT.  I now make sure I always do a catnap of 30-45 minutes around 4ish and that has helped tremendously.  Tonight I can hear him grousing a bit but he's not waking and the last two nights he hasn't made a peep after 7pm (until 1am)!  I will not waver from this catnap, not even over this Thanksgiving weekend, which I foresee as being hell for me, baby sleep wise BTW.

Cheers,