BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Bestbees on January 15, 2014, 08:50:13 am
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Hi all
I have not really been following and easy schedule and have had lots of feeding for comfort. I disagree with a lot of bw breastfeeding advice etc and prefer demand feeding. Naps are better I have transition from walking in buggy to rocking to now popping them in with some white noise. Sometimes a bit of rocking required. I know that's not perfect but with two pupd is difficult and I would rather they slept in the day to have a better chance that they are not overtired at night. I follow their cues n normally they have three to four hours sleep a day over two to three naps.
Night is the problem. Be have a solid routine, bath, massage, boob, book then into cot with singing in patting which we are slowly decreasing. They fall asleep easily with little protest. However the one or the other will wake after two hours, then one will wake the next hour and so on. Normally both sleep between eleven and one then the same happens again. I was feeding them each time as it was quickest way but they now wake when they are out down.
We tried last night pupd agreeing that every three hours we would feed. They have been slow to gain weight n I believe babies need night feeding on the breast a lot longer than bw does! One twin was ok and moved to mantra cries n settled. The other screamed for basically the whole night. Up st 5.30 for the day and cranky. Half hr nap, wide awake then after 45mins back down for another nap.
Do I persevere? I'm not sure if this is the right place for me to ask as I suppose I hate babies crying and don't really agree with sleep training but so exhausted!
Thanks
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Hey bestbees,
Great to see you on here, I know what a difficult time you've had with your twins. Since starting BW I have to say the structure has really helped my two. I can read them much better now so they barely cry. I can see when they begin to get tired etc and I can respond.
But I understand that letting them be babies is very important to you. In terms of sleep there are some no cry methods, maybe that would suit you better? There has to be a way of improving your situation, whether or not it is BW. ( I know somebody trying no cry sleep solutions maybe look it up).
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Hi Nippo,
Nice to see you too! I am working our way towards a more bw approach and hoping it helps! What do you do when one wakes but the the other is asleep for naps?
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BFing advice has changed a lot since Tracy sadly passed away and we do believe she would have changed her advice according. at 5-6 months both mine had 2 NFs.
That being said feeding on demand isn't really ideal beyond the first few months. Once supply is established it is often better to be in a more set routine otherwise the main issue is babies become snackers. They eat little and often and this goes on day and night. Babies don't get used to taking a big feed and lasting 3-4 hours on one feed. So I guess what I'm
Asking is how often are you feeding in the day? How do they settle for naps? In the same way as bedtime?
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Hi hun,
I just replied to your other post but then realised you already have a post (this one ;)) and so I locked the other thread and just wanted to ask almost the same as what Shiv asked..... what is your daytime routine like including feeds? ;D
FYI, dd3 had up to 2 night feeds at this age, she would sleep straight through on av 3-4 nights out of 7 but if she did wake, it was usually around 11pm and then another feed between 4-5am and I would feed her, even if she slept through previous night.
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Hi!
Well working on stretching feeds and getting into easy but really struggle.
For r example today...
Twin one
Woke 7
E bf
A including a little cereal
S 9 but woke after only 45 mins
E bf
A including some sweet pot
S 12
Where as other twin
Woke 5.30 and would not get off boob nor go back to sleep has a cold so might be why?
A including cereal
S 8.45
I woke at ten to try and keep in synch
E 10
A including sweet pot
S 12
Will continue hoping for a cat nap later and they have bottle at 5, then bath massage, boob, book then bed at 6.30.
Both asleep at the moment! In the day they sleep in the buggy which works for me so I can get about it i need to. This is part of a transition off feeding out sleep in the day. It can vary, sometimes they fall asleep on their own, sometimes I rock, if v bad I walk them. I know this is not ideal but feel that on my own with two it is the simplest way and means they don't get ot. Also helps me to encourage them to sleep at the same time.
At night I try to settle with shush pat. If they get bad a pick up. Sometime it works, for example twin one woke after three hours, shush patted and then went back to sleep for another hour before feeding. Other times it results in hysteria so I tend to feed....I know this defeats the point. I think because they had weight gain issues I am worried about them being hungry all the time. After about midnight I pretty much boob into submission cos I'm so tired!
Currently trying gentle changes
1. trying to extend a time in morning at was 1-1.5 hrs and meant that they had day sleeps too early in the day
2. Not feeding before ten at night, with the aim to push this back and back
3. Working on easy during day
Questions I have are
Should I wake one if other wakes from nap? I tend to play this a bit by ear and then split wake time difference. I do look for sleepy cues but obviously with two this can be a bit more complicated.
If I end up comforting baby for hours and then it's ten at night should I feed? Feels funny to hold off for hours then kind of give in? I am totally happy to feed in huge night and I know they can sleep better. W have had good nights with twin one going three to four hours and twin two only waking once for feed.
Thank in advance for help.
Best bees
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Hey Bestbees, I personally don't wake the other from naps. It has taken them this long to learn how to sleep longer than 10 minutes so I just want them to get the maximum benefit even if it means I lose me time...I do put them down at roughly the same time. One twin usually does 1.5 hours now but the other is very hit and miss. Usually does around 45 mins but if I'm lucky she sometimes does 1.5hours.
It takes so much work with twins, getting them synchronised I feel is nearly impossible. Mt friends seem to have done but I think it is a developmental thing. Eventually they will learn to sleep longer...
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Firstly you are doing GREAT.
At this stage I wouldn't wake from naps. The more restorative sleep they get the better YK?
Second question is no you don't feed if it gets to 10. You keep on preserving until they are asleep then feed the next time they wake.
Here is average a times:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
I think extending the A times is the way to go. At this age babies tend to do 2.45 moving toward 3 hours at 6 months. I think that's why twin 1 gave you the 45 minute nap. That's a sign of UT. And why twin 2 slept on as she had more appropriate a time YK?
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Thanks shiv
Well after a good rest of day with cat nap and easy bed time they both woke at 9 screaming and showing hunger cues so I fed :-\ I am taking v gentle approach and they had a massive feed so think that it was needed, maybe because they are so used to snacking so changes in th routine to get them to take bigger feeds will take time. Ing hyphen slept til 1, then 4.15 then up at 7 so good. The other woke more but I fed at twelve n three. This is still less than before so thinking slowly does it.
I agree about waking from naps in a general sense but with two it can really throw things off. My thoughts are if it has been more than one hour then I wkl feed the awake one then wake the other and feed them so that they are then ready for a nap again at roughly the same time.
This morning they managed two hours A time and our now snoozing. This is an improvement on the 1-1.5 of before so thinking the next two awake times might make to 2.5 hrs approx. Obviously reading their cues, but as I said with two sometimes one is ready before the other!
On the questions about put up put down this seems to stress them out even more! So thinking keeping up with gentle approach for now and revisit later.
What are thoughts about night feedings. I.e. When they were smaller I would feed both when one woke. I stopped doing that as one twin is better sleeper but what happen is I feed one at twelve, the other wakes at one, then the same at three n four. I don't want to stop the better sleeper but perhaps I should dream feed the better sleeper?
Thanks for all your help and encouragement, I like that people are respecting my methods and giving tips without it being too prescriptive!
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Neither of mine did well with PU/PD. They got so so upset when I put them back down. It was like they were confused as to why I wasn't holding them which is the prop I was trying to break. So I did ssh pat in the cot. I'd hold to drowsy then ssh pat until asleep then gradually put them down more and more awake. DD1 was not impressed with the prop weaning and did scream for an hour the first day but I just sat and held her hand and reassured her it was just sleep time etc and after that we didn't have an issue.
I think you keep going as you do. Aim to keep stretching those A times and I think you'll find they'll naturally start settling better as they will be tireder and more ready to sleep. PU/PD doesn't work well with UT babies at all.
Obviously it's important to read cues but when you are trying to up A times and get better naps you may have to gently push them past the a times they are used to. Often babies can show tired signs when they are used to sleeping but actually do need more A time to sleep well. Bit like the eating too. They can get used to short A times and short naps and can need encouragement to move forward a bit.
What night feeds I'd be inclined to DF the sleeping one to try and keep them waking at similar times otherwise you will be up all night. I think it's amazing you're BFing twins.
I'd have fed at 9 too. It's just all gentle steps to get you where you want to go. That's the best thing about BW.
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Hi!
I tried the dream feed with twin two but he didn't take much and was up two hours later. So then fed both.
So
7pm bed
9.15 twin 1 wakes, feed both
11.30 twin two wakes, twin one wakes two so feed both
1.30 twin one wakes n dh soothes
2.45 twin two wakes n feed both, twin one takes lots of settling but down 3.30
6am wake.
So, for us a better night.
Seem to be struggling with that first nap. Today put them down after two hours and only managed 40 mins. Is this under tired? Ono complicated!
Thanks for all the help. I love bf them!
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I would say yes that was UT. 2 hours is a short a time for 5.5-6 months. 40-45 minutes is often when babies come into a light cycle of sleep and if they are UT then they wake and just can't settle to sleep as they are not tired enough.
Glad you had a better night. DFs don't work for every baby so I think your current plan is better. I think it's a good idea to get DH to settle either twin if they wake for a feed and it hasn't been 3 hours since the last feed. Spreading feeds out through the day will help with that too.
After a 40 minute nap you may find they will likely be tired after 2-2.15 hours and hopefully they'll nap a bit longer for you. So you can get a cuppa at least!!
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It becomes impressive what you can do in forty mins. I got dressed, put on make up, unloaded dishwasher, put of some washing and drank a cuppa! Lol rest of day mixed, one awake when the other asleep! Slow and steady I think!
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Super woman!!
Slow and steady is the way to go. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. I think pushing the a times and making sure they are taking good full feeds will really help things even out.
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Hi shiv 52! Hope you can help, feeling a bit disheartened.
So stretching the a times is helping, particularly for twin one who I think is ready to drop the third nap.
Day is much better, this was yesterday:
Twin one
Wu 6.45
E 7 and 8.20 bf
A
S 9-11
E 11
A extra bf and solids
S 2-3.20
E bf 4, Bottle 5, bf 6
A
S 6.20 settled self in cot
Twin two
Wu 6.40
E 6.45
A including solids
S9-10.10
E 10.30
A extra bf n solids
S1-2.40
E 2.40
A
S15 min catnap after bf on lap4.30
E 5 bottle, 6 bf
S 6.20 settle in cot.
Then... Twin one woke every hour pretty much and twin two, after being woke for dream feed which didn't really work woke prob every two. At 5am do took them away and they slept on him so I could get a bit of Kip.
What is going wrong? They both have colds? Trying to stretch feedings in day but have a don't offer don't refuse policy as don't want hunger to stop a decent nap. Maybe I should being E to the middle of A time to combat this worry?
Tia
Bb
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The colds won't be helping I think. Sounds like a bit of discomfort.
I know lots of mums top their LOs up with a quick feed before nap time to make sure hunger isn't an issue but having the E in the middle would work too. It can just get a bit confusing as you generally feed first thing and it follows from there. What do you think would work best?
Hugs. Hope you get a better night tonight xx
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Well another pretty bad night.
Twin one slept from 6.45 til 10.30 which is great but then took two hours to settle
Twin two up at 9.30 and three hours to settle then both up and down all night.
Trying to get it so feeds are at beginning of A and only top up if one really shows they want it. Feel frustrated as I can't see what I am doing wrong! I guess I feed a lot at night and until I stop they won't stop waking but they cry and root and won't settle so I guess they are hungry!
Bb
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It could be they have developed a prop issue in that they don't know how else to get back to sleep without a feed YK? This is a age where props become much more noticeable and it may be you do need to try settle the without a feed if it hasn't been 3-4 since the last one consistently.
Are they still settling ok for naps and night in the cot?
Hugs x
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Shiv
I agree with the prop issue.
So last night I said I would only feed every three hours, and there was a lot of crying. Normally the settle independently with little fuss at bt, but they have had a feed recently, broken by book n song. Last night took fifteen mins of crying. There were various lots of crying in the night and it felt hard. But I think that how it was can't continue and hopefully they will learn fast? I sang and spoke softly and patted them in the cot until they slept. Twin one took an hour at one point. I picked up first to check for wind etc but too much up and down winds them up. Does this sound ok?
In the day they sleep in the buggy. I normally rock this but am weaning off. This morning I popped them in rocked til drowsy and they feel asleep on their own. Do you think it is a big problem and effecting night? I feel like if they get better sleep in the day it helps at night plus helps me get them to sleep at the same time more easily. My plan is to keep them sleeping in buggy until the summer when I will transition as I go back to work in September.
My plan is to keep going with the three hour feeding for a week at night and see how it goes, if things improve then stretch to three and a quarter. Found that they want to feed more in the day so easy has become eaeas a bit! But figure that's either whole point to get more in them in the day.
They woke at five thirty this morning :-\ and I fed and I hoped they would go back to sleep but no luck! They were happy n chatting though so I guess just ready for the day? When they woke they weren't crying so perhaps I should have just left them!
Thanks for all the help and reassurance!
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So last night I said I would only feed every three hours, and there was a lot of crying. Normally the settle independently with little fuss at bt, but they have had a feed recently, broken by book n song. Last night took fifteen mins of crying. There were various lots of crying in the night and it felt hard. But I think that how it was can't continue and hopefully they will learn fast? I sang and spoke softly and patted them in the cot until they slept. Twin one took an hour at one point. I picked up first to check for wind etc but too much up and down winds them up. Does this sound ok?
TBH that sounds like a pretty good start. Some babies are much more put out when you start to break props. I found picking either of mine up really irritated them and made them upset as they thought they were getting fed, then I'd put them back down. I did find reassuring in the cot worked better overall. Well done you. That was a hard night but a great start xx
I agree to start with 3 hour feeds at nights then stretch once you are there. And EAEA is fine in the day x
I hate to say it but the buggy naps may well be causing some of your issues at night as they are used to the motion of the buggy to get them to sleep. I totally get why you are doing it though. It may be worth though doing one nap a day in the cot to get them used to self settling a bit more.
But what I'd do is keep days as you are and see how nights go over the next few days then re evaluate from there. How does that sound?
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Thank you shiv the support is really appreciated. A lot of crying last night :'( but we have committed and think it would be crueler to give up than to continue.
It is really hard for twin one to go more than 2.5 hours without a feed, he is scrabbling at my top by then! So waiting til that point and hoping he stretches slowly in the day. I agree about naps so will see how we are in a week and reevaluate. Today they fell asleep for a nap in the buggy themselves after a little rock so hopefully that will help.
Twin one did first nap at only 45 mins, second at two hours and the other twin reversed it. So trying to appreciate the one to one time that this gave me. Dh has taken them out to see if they do a mini nap to stretch them too bed time. Definately in the three to two nap transition and they just need to take two longer naps. At the moment it's more like two cat naps and a decent one. Though I should I suppose go with their cues?
Thanks again for all the support. It really makes a difference!
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Hey Bestbees,
It might not feel like it but that sounds great!! I know the nights are hard but it will probably take time and you won't see the process working until you get there.
At least yr getting a two hour nap, that's brilliant. I had that for a week and now back to 20/30 mins. So although your situation feels dire, they are able to transition through at least one sleep cycle. They just need to apply that to the night. It will click. Xx
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Yes it could be they are starting to drop the CN. I much preferred when mine were on 2 naps. That pesky CN caused us a lot of trouble at 5-6 months.
When twin one is wanting to feed at 2.5 hours does he fall asleep feeding? Do you think he's tired and wants to sleep and knows feeding will help him relax into sleep?
I would watch cues while still trying to stretch those A times. They will need help to stretch it but you are doing great. Did they take the catnap in the end?
Hugs xx
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Last few days have been a nightmare tbh.
Daytime is thirty min naps and crying and scrabbling for the breast about every. Hour. Nighttime lots of crying and waking after twenty mins. Twin two up from 2-5am.
Not sure that it is helping in anyway, feel like it is making it worse!