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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 26, 2014, 10:40:48 am

Title: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 26, 2014, 10:40:48 am
We've been having horrendous NW for the last three weeks or so. The first couple of times, it was after her vaccinations, but it's continued. Not every night, but about every third or fourth night, she just doesn't settle after her middle of the night feed. I'll feed her (which takes FOREVER - at least 40 minutes) and she's just awake. I think she falls asleep v soon after she starts to feed and then wakes up again. She is feeding twice a night and the first feed is fine.  I had always given her a dream feed around ten, but she started waking up for it, so I just let her wake and I would feed her. About a month ago, we had a week where she would sleep from7.30 till 3 or so and then I would feed her and she'd sleep till 7.  Lovely. Then she had her second vaccinations and for two nights, she woke around 2.30 and was then awake for two hours plus. So I started giving her a dream feed again.  Now she's going to bed at 7.30, having a dream feed at 10.30 and still waking at 2.30 for a feed.  And about every third night, she doesn't settle. She will bob on and off the breast, I'll wind her and her eyes are wide open.  I'd been putting her back in her cot when I thought she'd had enough to eat, and she's awake. She does not cry. I leave her to it. She makes this very loud moaning sound from time to time and about two hours after she first woke, she'll fall back to sleep on her own. I can't go to sleep if I know she's awake, I'm a borderline insomniac anyway, and I'm surviving on about four hours of broken sleep.
So, the details. She's just over four months old, exclusively breast fed. She's doing the typical four month old thing, life is just too exciting to drink milk when there's so much to look at!!! So I feed her as much as I can when she wakes and then I do offer again about an hour later and she'll suck for 3-4 minutes and she's done. She sleeps in her cot in her room for the first two naps and in the baby carrier for the third nap. She's not swaddled anymore and she sleeps on her tummy. She doesn't use a dummy. She can suck her fingers but doesn't manage to do it successfully at night. She falls asleep on her own no problem.  Naps are great. Too good.  I wake her from nearly every nap now. This is how yesterday went ( the night before was a good night, I didn't give her a df as I slept through my alarm, I fed her at 23.20 and 3.30).
Wu 6.50 am, woke herself
E 7.30 am
A - around the house
S 9-10.50 (I woke her)
E 10.50, not very hungry, on and off
A - we went to have haircuts
E 12.30 (still not very hungry)
A a bit longer than she wanted, typical Saturday lunchtime chaos
S 13.20-14.50 (I woke her)
E 14.50
A
E 16.15
A
S 17.25-17.55.  Again later than she wanted, her baby Bjorn was in the wash and she's gone off her other carrier (this nap has to be in the carrier really, I have barn chores this time of day and I can't leave her in the house)
A bath, sit in high chair while we had dinner
E 18.45. I start her off downstairs then take her up to her room for the second half. She fell asleep feeding (does this about half the time) and was in her cot by 19.40

I gave her a dream feed at 22.30; she woke screaming for food at 2.20. I fed her..... Some time around 4.30 she fell asleep and she woke at 6.50

Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Skadiver13 on January 26, 2014, 18:30:00 pm
Hi Hun, you must be exhausted. I'm an insomniac too so I feel your pain. I can never got back to sleep easily. So around 4 months there is a definete sleep regression. This is one good article about it http://www.babysleepsite.com/how-we-sleep/4-month-old-sleep-regression/
There is also a 4 month GS so the 2 feeds is completely normal. Most EBF babies don't drop ether the DF or the NF until much later on.   So, in the short term, I would feed if its once or twice per night but in the longer term, I think the routine needs to be tweaked so she's eating more during the day. 

As for the long nw's if she's not crying she's most likely UT and just isn't tired enough to go back to sleep. For future reference, here are the Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!     I'm also thinking that she's ready to transition to a longer easy.  So to 3.5 hrs and then on to a 4 hr easy.  Here's some info on that
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
3-4hr EASY Transition – In 5 Minute Increments

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 26, 2014, 18:44:51 pm
Her a time is already 2 hr (1st) and about 2 hr 15-2 hr 20 ( 2nd and 3rd).  I am struggling to get more food into her during the day. I already feed her six times!  I'm trying to limit the snack before her afternoon naps, I've been scared to eliminate it for fear it shortens her nap, but maybe that's what I need to do.  Hmmm.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Skadiver13 on January 26, 2014, 18:48:02 pm
I would try that. I did not BF so I'm not sure exactly but I think if you give her a snack before her nap she's not going to be hungry enough after? But honestly other than that if she's happy at her MOTN wakings I'm not sure what else it could be but a GS and sleep regression.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Layla on January 26, 2014, 22:53:53 pm
At 4 months, we had anywhere from 0-2 night feeds but we didn't take as long to eat as your LO does. What I used to do was offer one side and once I would feel the let down and she stopped actively drinking, I would end the feed and swap sides and then once the active drinking stopped, I would end the feed, a gentle back rub for a burp and then back to bed.... If Jennifer woke towards the morning (2nd night E), I would offer 1 side only and then do the other side when she would wake in the morning for the day. So the morning E (6am for us) I would count as the start of the day E and do the other E's around 3.5hrs from there because she wouldn't be able to do 4 hrs between feeds back then. I also cluster fed towards the end of the day, so we had an E right after the catnap (one side) and then final E right before bedtime.

Also, maybe she's sleeping too much during the day and not tired enough to sleep at night? Maybe try not letting her sleep more than 1.5hrs per nap and 45mins for a catnap ... so something like this:

7am - wake and E
9-10.30 - morning nap
10.30 - E (both sides)
12.30-2 - afternoon nap
2pm - E (both sides)
4.30-5:15 - catnap
5pm - E (cluster feed, one side)
7pm - final E and bedtime
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 27, 2014, 00:39:42 am
The length of feeds is something I've always struggled with.  I tend to let her stay on as long as she wants but have finally started to think she might be using me as her dummy. So I should take her off when her sucking slows down?   I will try it tonight and see.  I am also going to try to cut down the snacky feed before her nap.
I agree with you Layla, I am going to cap her naps at 90 minutes because I do think she's just not tired enough. Fingers crossed.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: *happy* on January 27, 2014, 04:59:32 am
no advice,cause having our own issues here,but
couldnt read&not comment on how adorable your
avatar pic is!
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 27, 2014, 07:42:36 am
Thanks Happy! 
We had a much better night last night. Layla, you may have saved my sanity ;) she woke at 12.20 and 4.45 and was back in her cot both times within 20 minutes. I really don't mind feeding her twice a night, it's the not going back to sleep which is killing me.  And who knew she could feed that quickly?!? 
I just have to be really strict with myself and wake her from her naps.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Layla on January 27, 2014, 09:13:02 am
Yay! I think if you keep her daytime sleep to 2x1.5hr naps and a catnap and shorten the feeds, that should hopefully do the trick.

Quote (selected)
So I should take her off when her sucking slows down
Yes, that's what I did. I would let her actively suck and then once she would slow down, I would probably keep her there for another couple of mins and then little pinky in to end the feed and put her on the other side ;).

Fingers crossed she sleeps well tonight ;D!
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 27, 2014, 09:54:02 am
I will let you know. Thank you.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 28, 2014, 07:58:56 am
Well, she was a bit better last night. Her naps were 1 hr 15 (I had to wake her cos I had a dentist appointment), 1 hr 30, and catnap 40 minutes. Bedtime 7.30. She woke for food at 12.30 (straight to sleep) and 4. I knew at 4 that I had a problem, she was twitching and wiggling. I fed her and put her down and she quietly moaned for 20 minutes then she started fussy crying, like she wanted to sleep but couldn't, and finally she properly cried and I went and put my hand on her shoulder for a minute and she went back to sleep about 5.15. She stayed asleep till just past 7.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 29, 2014, 06:40:55 am
Another bad night last night.  She woke up four times before 11 pm, when I fed her, then at 2, I fed her at 4.30 and she's awake now at 6.30 am.   She did go back to sleep beautifully after her feeds so why so unsettled in between? 
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Layla on January 29, 2014, 22:38:44 pm
Sorry to hear about your night :(. Do you think maybe because both her naps were cut short and she went to bed at 7.30, she may have been a little overtired?
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on January 30, 2014, 01:29:54 am
Possibly, although her morning wake up was 7.15. Tbh I struggle to get her into bed for the night much earlier than that but I do know she needs to go earlier so I am going to work on it.
I think I know another reason though - she's started using her stuffed rabbit to prop herself up and roll over and she is now creeping from one end of the cot to the other.
Tonight has been a bit better, I had her in bed by 7 although it took her 15 minutes to get to sleep. She cried at 45 minutes and I checked on her and she'd gone across the cot and was up against the side. I straightened her out and she's slept till 1.20. Am feeding her now.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: 3littlemen on February 01, 2014, 21:16:35 pm
Hey Sarah....
We're doing the same thing here, having had good nights 6pm-4am on occasion with a df, with shocking naps, now we've got excellent naps and shocking nights - waking up for a full a time just about during the night.

I'm wondering if it's food related, as we have started cueing for food back at 3hrs again... I am going to try holding him out again, 5min here 10 there, until I make it back up to 3.5 or so, and cap his naps at 1.5hr also. (I think I preferred dodgy naps and good nights to good naps and dodgy nights!)

We ended up getting a habitual waking (I think we have anyway) around 12.30 and then 2.30.. so I am working to W2S the 12.30 one. We're doing the rollover thing too.

I know this doesn't help, but perhaps its a 4mo thing??
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 02, 2014, 00:43:13 am
I would much rather have better nights!  Things are much better here though. She's been settling much better at 4 am. I'm sure capping her nap at 1 hr 30 is helping. She's much more tired at bedtime.  And after a couple of days, rolling over is much less exciting.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Layla on February 03, 2014, 02:43:03 am
Good to hear Sarah, we're also going through some bedtime resistance at the moment, mine is now standing and trying to walk around the cot and what has really helped is doing a longer wind-down, where she can have lots and lots of cot time (part of our routine now)... I read her a story while she is practicing the standing and sitting and she seems to settle much better ;D!
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 03, 2014, 06:31:17 am
I can't believe it. Tonight/this morning is probably the worst yet. She had a feed at 3.15 but couldn't settle till 4.30. Then she woke up at 5.45. I gave her some teething medicine cos it must be teeth, right ;) and ten minutes later she was crying again so I fed her cos she must be hungry ::).  After about ten minutes she started blowing raspberries on my boob so I took her off and put her back in her cot. It's 6.30 and she's in there now squealing and blowing bubbles.  Could it be overstimulation? We seem to have more of these bad nights on the weekends when everyone is home.  Or - gasp - is she going to drop her third nap early?
This was yesterday
Wu 7.05, e
A
S 9.25-10.55 ( I work her)
E
A
E ( she just can't make it)
S 13.25-13.55 (I woke her)
E
A
E
A
S 17.15-17.45 (woke herself)
A - bath
E
In bed asleep at 7.30
First NW 22.30, tried to settle her for 15 minutes, nope, fed her
2nd NW 3.15
And you know the rest.
In the time I've been writing this she has quieted a little. Maybe she'll go back to sleep???
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 03, 2014, 06:50:19 am
Ok so she's still awake. It's 6.45. It's going to be a looooooooong day :(
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: *happy* on February 03, 2014, 09:05:29 am
Oh no!
I dont have NFs very often,but DD loved to do a full A if
we ever did have one!
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 03, 2014, 10:05:00 am
That's exactly it, happy!  If she doesn't fall asleep straight away she'll try to do a full a time! 
She actually did go back to sleep just before 7. I let her sleep for 45 minutes. She was some tired when I got her up and only managed an hour and a half before going back to sleep. 
The more I think about it, it seems the key is hunger?  She's a devil to feed during the day, she is so nosy. It's not so bad in the week when it's just her and I, but the weekends.....  I've not been giving her a dream feed but I think I'm going to have to.  She's only 13 pounds and doesn't seem to be gaining very quickly. I'm just so confused :'(
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: *happy* on February 04, 2014, 09:37:17 am
DD was weighed yesterday&is only 13lbs too!
There's a pair of them in it!
DF has worked a treat here to get a decent feed in.
She is so distractable during the day too-i guess it's
their age.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 04, 2014, 10:45:29 am
I did give her a feed at 9 last night, I was so tired that's when I wanted to go to bed. She slept till 12.20 and 3.40. So not quite four hours but she did go back to sleep so that's something. I am going to try to stay awake a bit later tonight;) and df at 10.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: *happy* on February 04, 2014, 11:06:16 am
O gosh-i dont stay awake!once a week maybe,but that's
it!i settle her&am asleep on the couch by 8.30pm
usually.DH takes over then for the inevitable 40min
resettle&wakes me at 10.25.that gives me 5 mins to get
the pjs on,teeth brushed etc!i swear,im in a dream for
the feed more than the baby is!
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 04, 2014, 11:08:28 am
:)
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: 3littlemen on February 05, 2014, 21:42:14 pm
Hey there Sarah.
just wondering if your MOTN wakings are improving... Ours are bad still, though one night I fluked a single wake up. We're up about twice a night for at least an hour, plus and EW. Strange thing is our naps are quiet good, usually needing a resettle at around 1hr mark and then a two hour sleep total.
We're definitely on a 3h30feed now, and the lengths of feed (all except the first one of the day) are much longer - two were nearly 20m yesterday arvo. I only offered one side last night at 1am, thinking perhaps he was getting TOO much food at night to be hungry come breaky, and he still wasn't interested come breakfast... if I could strap a ceiling fan onto the underside of my chin I think he would stay focused!

Have you found anything that works?
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 05, 2014, 22:02:09 pm
They're not much better tbh. Still having two feeds (plus a dream feed!!!!) and 50:50 she won't settle at 4 am.

I got strict with her today and only feed every 3.5 or 3.75 hours and she was okay. I will stop this snacking habit!  We'll see how tonight goes.  Lol about the ceiling fan. I discovered today Medi is happy to hold her stuffed bunny while nursing.

Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 07, 2014, 06:16:13 am
And it's made no difference. I'm feeding her twice but she's just not settling after the 4 am feed. She was awake for an hour this morning, slept for 45 minutes, and she's awake again now at 6 am.   
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: *happy* on February 07, 2014, 06:27:24 am
Sarah,you may have already answered this,but does
she take a soother?
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 07, 2014, 06:38:26 am
No, she never has :(. She sucks on her stuffed bunny or her fingers now.  She's still grumbling and grizzling and trying to get back to sleep but not succeeding :(.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: *happy* on February 07, 2014, 08:02:38 am
Bang goes that idea so!sorry you're having a rubbish time.x
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on February 07, 2014, 10:55:15 am
She went back to sleep at 7 ::).

I'm completely flummoxed now. I will post our day tonight and maybe something will jump out.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: 3littlemen on February 07, 2014, 23:57:45 pm
Hey Sarah,
I've decided to 'start' Easy - we're 16 weeks and I looked back and realised our a's were everywhere and feeds were getting up to 3.75. The last two days were interesting, first day was great naps, yesterday one of the long ones was only 30m, and today I had to resettle (though not with pupd or anything) the first. nights have improved, in that night one he woke twice and fed once, but ew was at 5.20.. last night I fed on 2.20am nw (he went to sleep at 6.30 fed at 6 df 9) and he woke at 5.40...  I realise she said it takes a week to break a habit, so I'm going to stick with my 4hr.... for a week. I mean, it can't be any worse right??? :-\
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn - Still having problems
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on March 06, 2014, 08:00:46 am
So here I am back again. In the last six weeks Medi has increased her a time and dropped the third nap. But we're still having problems. I don't know where to start actually :(.  She is very spirited and is almost crawling, has started pulling up, :o, and is a rolling fool. I've been getting some grief from her doctor because her weight gain is not good enough (18 oz in last 10 weeks) so I have very slowly started weaning her but it's literally only been a few spoons of baby rice.
Last night she was awake from 1:30 till 3:45 then 4:25 till 6. I fed her at 2 and at 6. At 6 she actually went back to sleep for an hour. Other nights she'll have an ew anytime from 4:30 onwards. She's not crying. She's rolling around, chatting and grunting. Sometimes she'll poop.  Eventually she either puts herself to sleep or she gets stuck somewhere in the cot at which point she'll cry, I go in and turn her over. If she cries I do pat/shh. Sometimes she goes back to sleep. Sometimes not.  :-\
She has two naps, morning 1.5h, afternoon up to 2 h. I'm trying not to let her nap before 9 or later than 4. I don't know if she's under or over tired. I'm just so confused.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on March 06, 2014, 08:33:02 am
Just wanted to drop off some hugs.  We've been plagued with long nws for as long as I can remember.  We had a pattern of long nws alternating with ews which cutting day sleep and increasing A times helped with,  but I'm afraid I haven't figured out what they mean here really.  Except for:

- We get more before milestones emerge.  The physical ones are easy to spot but I guess some others could be down to mental leaps or teething.
- Jack used to be up for 1.5 - 2hrs at around 3 - 5am and then only go back to sleep for another 40-50 minutes before being up for the day. He would then treat the extra 40-50 minutes as an early nap and then EW the next day,  regardless of what I did for the rest of the day.  I think a lot of those were UT due to too much day sleep (I suspect this is still an issue for us), or not enough A time in the day. I had to give him 1 - 1.5 hrs to resettle from those very EWs, and get him up if he didn't settle in that time.  I'd have to keep him up for at least a whole A time then.  I'd try and get as close to a normal nap time as possible (I remember doing 4hrs A one morning when he was 6 months). If he woke at 3 I'd persevere with resettling for as long as it took - I wasn't starting the day at 3 - but if he woke at 4.30 and wasn't asleep again by 5.45 / 6 I'd get him up.
- Ones where jack resettled within an hour I've assumed are OT or something else.

Nothing has consistently worked for us though, so no magic answer I'm afraid.  But I know how horrible they are :( I hope you find the answer soon.
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: becj86 on March 06, 2014, 08:40:32 am
Your little girlie reminds me of L! His a times were very high and he did stop gaining as fast when he was moving so much earlier than the other kids. When everyone else started moving, they all slowed down and they matched back up again - I'd just keep in mind how much more active she is and know she's using up a lot of what she's eating in energy for rolling, standing, etc. brain activity takes up a lot of energy too and if she's standing, etc that will be making all sorta of balance related connections.

What's her routine?
Title: Re: Awake for hours in the motn
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on March 06, 2014, 13:33:37 pm
I'm not that worried about her weight actually, just put it out there as the reason I've started weaning her ;)

Yesterday was like this:
Wu 6 am ( I can live with 6) I got her up at 6:15 ish
E 7 am ( nf at 3 am)
A
S 8:55-10:25 (I woke her)
E 11 am
A mother and baby group - I only go once a month, she finds it so exciting, we always have a bad night after
S 13:30-15:20(she woke herself)
E 15:30
A
E 17:45
S in bed by 18:30, asleep by 18:30
NW 1:30 am, I fed her but she didn't go back to sleep til 3:45
NW 4:25-6
Nf 6, she fell back to sleep and woke herself at 7:20

Today she is absolutely shattered. She napped 9:45-10:30 (dd1 had music festival at school, apop nap in carrier, theses are always 30 or 45 mins)
I put her down at 13:00 and she went straight to sleep. I'll have to wake her at 3 to take dd1 swimming. I refuse to do bt before 18:00 since she very rarely tacks on.