BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: xinmommy on January 26, 2014, 22:47:44 pm
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hello, I am so glad that I found this forum and have been reading for the past few days. my DS is having all kinds of sleeping issues (i.e. frequent NW's and demanding for feeding, only sleeping in my arms, short naps, nurse to sleep) and the main one that I have no idea how to fix is his NW around 5am...usually I feed him and try to put him back to sleep but he can never go into deep sleep in order for me to put him back to the crib and it lasts until 7,8am when everyone in the house wakes up. By then he and I are both extremely tired and he never has enough hours of sleep (max. 7 hours during the night). We've always had some routine but not the EASY approach, just approximated on daily basis...I just started EASY and the shush/pat approach few days ago when I was desperate about his sleeping issues, and he still has the 5am NW problem. Here is our EASY schedule for yesterday:
8:00am: day starts (although he didn't really sleep since 5:40am), A
9:00am to 9:05am E
10:00am to 10:44am S
11:00am to 11:20am E
12:00pm to 12:47pm S
1:04pm to 1:14pm E
2:20pm to 2:54pm S
2:58pm to 3:05pm E
4:45pm to 5:25pm S
6:20pm to 6:30pm E
7:00pm 8:00pm bedtime routine incl. bath, eat, story
8:00pm sleep
we were having same issue last night, DS didn't sleep well until 8am this morning at which time I had to hold him and he slept until 9am.
DS cried a lot the last few days since shhh/pat introduced and he seemed not as happy as before (now with swallon eyes and poker face most of the time). It hurts to see him like this and sometimes I wonder if I should quite sleep training (seems I'm shhh/pat-ing and he's crying all the time and we don't get much time to have fun any more...)
Any suggestions? not sure if anyone had similar situation?
thanks in advance
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Hi and welcome to the BW :)
How old is he?
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Thanks...
Sorry to mention that he's 16 weeks old...
I just accidentally hit "report to moderator" instead of "reply"... what do I do?
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I just accidentally hit "report to moderator" instead of "reply"... what do I do?
That's ok, I just have to close the report :)
He's about 3 months? So at that age, we were also battling with very short naps but I think in your case he's also a very overtired little baby so I would probably tone things down a bit and shorten the morning A,especially if he's waking up as early as 5.30am and he is then awake until 10am for his morning nap. I would probably look at putting him down much earlier, so adjusting his schedule to the 5.30am wake up time for a few weeks and then slowly trying to push his day forward. On 7hrs of sleep, he would be one very overtired little bubba, so I think an earlier bedtime would be the key here. Honestly, if he's waking up as early as 5.30am, he should be going to sleep between 5.30-6pm!
How was he falling asleep before? Do you have a wind-down routine? Is his room dark? Have you got white noise? How long do you do shh/pat for? If he's overtired, it will be much harder for him to self settle... have you noticed him wanting to suck his fingers or do you use a dummy? When he wakes 45mins into his nap, do you try and resettle?
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Hi Layla, thanks for the suggestions... although 5:30pm bedtime is unfeasible for us we will try to move to about 6:30 and see how it goes.
DS has been mostly nursed to sleep and recently I made sure he did not fall asleep right after feeding, but it has always been some sort of prop. (couple of days ago before I started the shah/pat I used to hum through his ear while rocking him until he fell asleep on my shouler.
The current routine is similar to the four 'S' - setting, no swaddling, sitting, putting him in crib for 10 mins to see if he falls asleep on his own (of course never happen) and then shh/pat...he is very resistent on the shh/pat while lying in the crib and screams loudly...sometimes I feel that I could pass out because of too many shh's, so most of the time I leave him on my shoulder until he almost closes his eyes (hope this is not a bad approach). There're times that it would take forever for him to be in deep sleep state and as soon as I stop, he screams; occasionally it takes about 5 to 10min.s to shh/pat. Other times it takes two to three rounds (45 min per round and I'd feed him if he's still awake when 45 min's pass by). The blind is closed when he naps during the day so it is relatively dark.
I tried white noise once but seemed not working. Maybe I'll give more tries? I use bedtime lullaby during 'sitting' to calm him down. DS does suck his fingers but is not able to use for NW's to go back to sleep. I tried W2S twice and was not successful, he screamed so bad and I ended up waking him up completely (he's very good while awake). This afternoon I nursed him at the 45 min's nap waken and he slept for another 45 min's...it was like dreamfeed.
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I started the shh/pat with dd2 when she was a little older than your LO (mine was 4mo) and to help me stay sane I did the following:
-attempted shh/pat for a total of 20mins and if there was no S after 20mins, I would get her up, do a small activity and then try again later. If E was due, I would do E and then try for a nap. If she was falling asleep by the breast, I would end the feed and into the cot
-If she woke early from the nap, I would try to resettle for another 15mins (if her nap was 45mins long, or 30mins if nap was 30mins long). If she wouldn't go back to S, I would get her up and move on with the day and bring the next nap forward by 15mins or so.
-our nights got better first (mine was a breast and paci addict and I threw the paci away and stopped feeding her to sleep). At night, I would feed if she woke anywhere from 4hrs onward and try and resettle if it was less.
At 3 months, we were starting to drop the 4th catnap and our morning nap started to lengthen but the rest of the day consisted of 2 catnaps. Short naps can also be developmental so keep that in mind but still, I would look at starting your naps earlier as the wake time in the morning is too long for him.
Let me know how you go :)
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Hi Layla - thanks for sharing your expertise and experience. It is very ecouraging
last night was tiring since DS woke uo at least once every hour (bedtime was from 8pm to 8am) but he did 'sleep' after 5am with frequent wakings...not sure if this is improvement or not. However the daytime naps were improved...1st nap started at 9:40am and lasted for 50 min. his 2nd nap followed after 1hr 40min of A time which was 50 min. long again. He then had 2 hr A time and then the 3rd nap which was 40 min long...I was trying to put him for a CN after another 1hr and 15min which took me 45min and he almost settled but was waken up by a loud noise from neighbour's snowblower. :(
Since we have an appointment time change DS will start BT around 8 or 8:30pm so I just managed to have him resettle for the CT (6:20pm).
The shh/pat was a little shorter overall and I did put white noise back on. Maybe that's why?
Will see how the night goes with all those naps...fingers crossed!
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oops he just woke up from the 25 min. nap
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ok DS was able to sleep somehow in the early morning hours for the last few days...but his NW has dramatically increased (he used to sleep for two long stretches before midnight but now he wakes up almost once every hour). He wants to be fed every time too, and if I don't offer he screams so hard...he's a very happy baby so this breaks my heart :'(
I tried to shush/pat but never worked. His cry escalates as soon as I start 'shhh'. I just read about the 'gentle removal plan' yesterday and offered the breast every time he wanted during NW's...that was in total of 7,8 feeds...is this the right approach? could he be going through growth spurt?
sigh,,,,
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He could be going through a growth spurt but 7-8 night feeds is probably a little too much. Does he actually take a feed or is he just using your breast as a prop?
Would you be able to post your EAS, what it looked like that day? How long have you been working on independent sleep and are you at a point where you can put him down awake and leave and he will put himself to sleep?
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Hi Layla, forgive me that I do not have much time to type. Our EAS is pretty standard - 3 hr with max. 2 hr. A time, if S is 45 or 30 min. I try to short the next A by 15 or 30 min...and that's whar he does (45 or 30 min nap all day)!
for yesterday and today I was able to extend one or two of his naps after he woke uo at the 30 min. mark, but I eventually had to feed him and hold him in my arms for extra sleep time (I couldn't shh/pat when he woke up in the crib, had to pick him up 1st and calmed him down then put back, shh/pat for 6-7 min.s and he wouls sleep for another 5-10 min. and woke up again and this time he wouldn't settle with shh/pat, and I had to feed him even though it was not E time, and then he would sleep for another hour...
I feel so helpless now that I couldn't resettle him during NW's with shh/pat and that becomes the main reason that most of the night time hours are wasted, and his total sleep hours for the night was no more than 6, 7 hours! am I doing something wrong?
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I forgot to answer your questions Layla...
he does feed every time, but the problem is that he gets gassy later and wakes up more often I think. He would also have bowl movement in the middle of the night, then I had to change him...
He's always been prop'ed to sleep and I have been using shush/pat for 10 days now. I have to shh/pat until he's in deep sleep state.
So far he only fell asleep on his own once.
Last night I managed only feed him at least every 3.5 hours, he was crying for breast, end up only slept for a total of 6.5 hours
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hi, sorry I haven't been able to provide details...it's been soooo busy with baby and other things.
I finally got the book by Tracy and really enjoyed reading it (although just started). DS's been given me surprises everyday now which makes me so happy...he starts to fall asleep independently (just saying the key words) and is having 1.5 hr nap time...although he still wakes many times during the night but I am not complaining, I know he's trying so hard too and one day he'll get there, and while we are here during MW's I truly enjoy being there for him and I will definitely miss the time.
Thanks Layla for your help and others who had posted stories here for me to read.
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I am back...
Last I mentioned DS almost became independent sleeper... basically I put him on the side after saying the key words and he would fall asleep for naps and BT. However it gets tricky during NW's: he either wakes up from rolling to his back (I tried to put wedges to prevent him rolling however he got upset and still woke up whenever he decided to turn his head/body, and I had to put him down at a certain angle on the side for him to sleep which only lasted no more than 2 hours, mostly 1 hour or 1.5 hr... so I tried to put him on his back at BT, which took at least 45 min and lots of crying... things seemed got better for one night and last night was disaster. Here is the EASY for yesterday and last night (he started have short naps again few days ago, not sure if it was related to the loud noise from extreme windy weather which couldn't be blocked by white noise):
WU at 8:15am from the night before (slept for a total of 9 hers during 12 hr night which was a record for him)
E 9:00am
A 8:15am - 10:20am
S 10:20am-11:00am
E 12:30pm
A 11:00am-12:45pm
S 12:45pm-1:05pm
E 2:45pm (I bumped this feed because he was due for a nap at 3pm)
A 1:05pm-3:00pm
S 3:00pm-4:00pm then resettled, slept until 5pm
E 5pm
Bath and ate at 7:15pm
BT 8:00pm
NW 8:45pm DH resettled him, had to change his nappy
DF. 10:30pm
NW, 11:00pm, 12:05am, resettled within 10 mins
NW at 1am, not able to settle and he cried on and off for an hour then I fed him at 2:05am, slept until 3:30am
NW's from 3:30am until 7am with continuous effort to resettle but keeps waking up 10-15mins after put down and he cried so hard... had to change him once more at 4pm...
Slept from 7am until 8:15am
I really don't know where this is going? Any input/help is much appreciated.
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Sorry to hear things have gone pear shaped again.
He's about 21weeks according to my calculation? From what I understood, he's a tummy sleeper and he wakes himself up when he turns on his back? Unfortunately when they learn a new skill they want to practice it all the time... so it's probably just a phase and I would encourage lots and lots of play time (I did mine in the cot) before nap/bedtime to let him practice and get used to it. Eventually the novelty will wear off.
The other thing I noticed is that your last A is still quiet long, 3 hrs and maybe he's a little overtired still by bedtime (despite the 2hr nap he had). Having short naps (again) is often an indication of needing a little more A and maybe you could try adding a little more A before his 1st nap (so that the A is closer to 2.5hrs) and he may sleep a little longer.
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Yes Layla he's about 21 weeks now, and no he does not sleep on tummy but on his sides (he has yet been able to roll to either side and that's the problem when he falls asleep that way but later wakes himself up when tries to roll to his back, either too sudden or he couldn't roll back to the side which makes him upset)... what I am doing right now is trying to put him drowsy on his back but also turn his head and upper body slightly that way he could roll back and forth himself. He does not like that but seems after two nights of doing that he is not so upset anymore and actually fell asleep that way tonight, I guess this is the right approach before he's able to roll?
I do get him for tummy time few times daily. Sometimes in the cot and sometimes on the playmate on the floor... he tries to raise one side of his butt and roll but so far no success, I think it will happen soon. The other thing that I did while he plays in the cot is helping him rolling from back to sides and vice versa, hoping he gets used to the feeling?
Thanks for your advice, I will try to lengthen the morning A and see how it goes.
According to Tracy's book, short night stretches are usually because of calories shortage, so I just started DF at around 10:30pm two nights ago however he still woke up shortly after that and we didn't get any longer stretches... should I drop the DF and just feed whenever he wakes up around 10 or 11 or should I continue the DF for a week?
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DS woke up at 7:10am this morning (BT at 8:30pm last night) and wasn't able to resettle; however morning nap was 1hr 15min. after morning A was increased to 1hr 15min. thanks Layla!
we will have to make an early BT tonight and let's see how it goes
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Sorry another question:
Why does DS keep waking up crying after about 10 mins resettle during NW's? This has been really difficult during the night and sometimes can take an hour or two just keep putting him back to sleep, regardless I feed him or not.
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You're doing everything you can to help him master the rolling over task and eventually (hopefully sooner rather than later) he will get used to doing it in his sleep and not waking himself up.
Great to hear on the longer nap - I used to hold the same A's for a few days before moving up more just so mine wouldn't get too overtired.
Sorry another question:
Why does DS keep waking up crying after about 10 mins resettle during NW's? This has been really difficult during the night and sometimes can take an hour or two just keep putting him back to sleep, regardless I feed him or not
Maybe he hasn't really resettled and having a difficult time resettling. Do you stay with him until he is asleep?
With regards to the DF - I believe at some point it starts to mess up their night rather than help them sleep longer and I never did the DF so you could experiment with this and let him sleep until he naturally wakes up, give him a feed and see if he will sleep longer?
How did the rest of his day go with naps?
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Thanks for the encouragement!
yes it seems that he's having difficulty resettling, most of the time I did not stay for another 10 mins after putting him down. I guess from now on that I should stay there longer (say another 10 min's) after putting him down just so I don't have to keep going back.
I think you're right about the DF was messing up his sleep because last night he woke up after exactly same length of sleep but it wasn't my intended DF time yet since he fell asleep sooner than before...I did not feed him and he got really upset, but finally went back to sleep and woke again an hour later and that was after 11pm.
The other two naps were both 45 mins which wasn't so bad...he woke up happily for the first two naps and always cried after the CN.
I will keep experimenting few nights and see how it goes. Will update later (typing on the tablet is really uncomfortable and slow)
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sigh...
the last couple of days are pretty much similar...10+ NW's and difficult to resettle. The most frustrating part is, DH starts to question if this ST really works, he suggests that perhaps this is how DS is (wakes up hourly, needs to be nursed to sleep, etc.). We had a big argument this morning, I was upset when he said that DS used to smile and be happy during the first 3 months (prior to ST), and always interacted with him, but DS doesn't even look at him most of the time when he came home from work (THIS WAS SOMETHING THE IN-LAWS SAID A MONTH AGO WHEN THEY WERE NOT HAPPY ABOUT the ST and everything else); then DH was not happy when I said the reason that DS did not intereact with him much was because he did not spend enough time with him and did not proper approach him. He got upset and said it was not his fault for not having enough time with our son, since he was the one working right now and DS usually would have to go to bed soon after he came home from work. :'(
sorry for the complaints...
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I'm so sorry to hear all that :(. It's tough for dads and my DH some days doesn't get to see dd3 at all (we're going through the 2-1 nap transition and on days she only takes 1 nap, i put her to bed as early as 5pm). Could your DH spend some times with him in the morning? Dd wakes up early (6am) and he's home about 1.5 hrs before he heads to work...
Before ST, what were you doing and why did you decide to sleep train? It can be hard for men to understand the need for a routine and sleep training... they don't see most of it during the day (the effects of). Dh was not very supportive of it too with dd1 and 2 and wanted me to wing it and the in-laws and my mum were not much helpful either and thought 6.30pm bedtime was ridiculously early but with dd3, dh was (and is) a lot more involved and if she needed to be resettled at night (during the ST times), I would ask him to do it. He didn't feel comfortable but still tried and she would actually settle better with him and that gave him the confidence to do it (I used to take over all the time with dd1 and 2, which didn't help). Do you think your DH would be able to help you with the night wakings?
Enough rambling... that is a lot of nightwakings.... so going back to him sleeping on the side... is he waking up because he's rolled over? Maybe you're helping him too much to resettle and he is expecting it? Is he just mantra crying or properly crying the "I need you mummy" cry? How is his daytime sleep? Would you be able to post what the last couple of days have looked like?
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Layla---thanks for your toughtful words...it had been a very difficult time for the last few weeks and we ended up going to see therapist for relationship counselling, and with the in-laws not living with use any more things got better between DH and I, and you can see that I finally have time to come back here!
DS still has many NW's and some nights are easier to settle than others...I only need to feed him 2 to 3 times during night sleep which is great. I think he's also ready for the 3 to 2 nap transition which is what we are doing now. We are also expected to start solid in the next week or two. Lots of things happening at the same time...can I post the EAS after we finish the nap transition? I'd also like to see if that will improve the NW situation.
WRT the ST, DS was fed on demand and nursed to sleep for about 15 weeks, and it got to a point that I had to hold him in my arms the whole time for night sleep and naps, and he was constantly fed to go back to sleep whenever woke up, and that was not enough...he did not sleep so well and neither did I. So I did some research and it got me here...
There's a big improvement for DS: he became an independant sleeper recently. I put him in the crib awake and he'd play for few minutes and fall asleep after I leave the room...however he still needs me for most of the NW's to go back to sleep. We tried to let him cry (I think it was mantra cry) for 1 minute or 2 and he'd go back to sleep on his own for few times, maybe one out of twenty times?
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Hi again and thanks for the update. I hope everything between you and DH... having a baby can be very challenging so big hugs to you :-*.
If you need help with the 3-2 nap transition, let me know and I'd be glad to share what worked for us. For example, when extending A times, we sort of worked on one at a time and I found taking my LO out of the house very helpful as she would otherwise get very bored and I'd take that as a sign of being tired and put her down too early. Also, I found an earlier bedtime better than doing the catnap... but it all depends on what works for your LO.
With regards to mantra vs real cry... if he's just mantra crying, I would say its better to leave him alone and it sounds like he's getting better and better at self soothing, if it only takes him 1-2mins to get back to sleep.
Keep me posted :-*
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Hi Layla, thanks for the tips...I sort of did similar things as you mentioned (take him out of the house, early bedtime). He's on 2.75 A time now and is having 2 naps (one 2hr nap and one 1 hour to hour and 15 mins)most of the week...the problem with early BT has been that he would wake up very frequent during the 1st half of the night (i.e. every 30-40 mins), is it OT or UT? or perhaps it's associated with teething? Although I did not see him drooling a lot yet DS turned 6 mths yesterday and has his 1st tooth (just a tiny white came out), and I just started giving him rice cereal this morning, he loved it.
So lots are happening at the same time...it's nice to know that I can always get help here :)
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I think we've completed the 3-2 nap transition...though we may need a catnap today (the morning nap was on 24 mins!)
WRT falling asleep independantly, I feel like we're going backwards. DS was put down awake and would fall asleep by himself, but recently he needs me there everytime! I had to either let him hold my hand or put my hand on his back until he fell asleep...is this normal?