BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: 4isstillnighttime on April 07, 2014, 11:23:53 am
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Hi everyone
Thanks in advance for your help. I'm getting near the end of my tether with this. I'm a new convert to BW so apologies if I mess up any of the abbreviations etc! I started reading this forum about a month ago and naps have improved but our nights are still grim and I need help!!
I have non identical twin girls, Z and C. C had awful reflux when she was tiny but is now off all her medicines and doing well. They are breastfed, doing well with solids and no teeth yet. C has just started crawling.
I'm not even sure where to start with our sleep problems! Here is our usual EASY
Wake up 5am. Mess around in cots til 5:30. Lights on at 6am
E croissant, fruit, yoghurt
A rolling, crawling (v grumpy and tired, I make them stay up til 9)
E bf at 8
S at 9 til 10:30 (usually need resettle after 30 mins)
E bf 10:30
A playgroup etc
E 12:30 lunch (sandwiches, fruit)
S 2 til 3:30 (again, a struggle to keep them up this long and usually need resettling after 30 mins, which sometimes doesn't work....)
E bf 3:30
A play at home, go to swings if not raining
Occ catnap from C if in the buggy - never more than 20 mins, always ends by 5:15
E supper - meat, fish, veg, rice pudding
Bath, bf, bed by 7
Bedtime is a screaming nightmare of overtired mess but if we go any earlier they wake up earlier, which kills me. C has a teddy which she loathes. She used to have a dummy but would knock it out and wake up for it every hour so I took it away and she initially slept much better. Z has a dummy and a lovey, and sucks her thumb. They settle brilliantly with shh pat but will wake if patting stops so I just shh in their ears and they scream themselves to sleep. Last night I tried leaving the room and going back in every minute to kiss and stroke heads, didn't make much difference to the screaming duration and made me feel awful!
C wakes every night at 9 and I shh her back to sleep. She then wakes at about 11:30 and I feed her, straight back to sleep. Z wakes at 2:30 and I feed her. C wakes at 3 and the last 3 nights has screamed for an hour. Pupd winds her up so last night I sshed for an hour til back to sleep. Both awake at 5, bf in the hope they will go Back to sleep. They won't.
Where do I start? Ideally i would like them to get up at 6 or 6:30, and go to bed at 7 or 7:30. I feel they don't really need all the night feeds but don't know how. They are both tired and grumpy all day but if they have shorter A periods they don't nap. We are all miserable....please help!!
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I should add that z has slept through the night twice, and c never has :'(
In 8.5 months I have never had more than 3 hours sleep in a row. Oh god....writing it down makes it look worse!!!
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I'm having trouble with my twins too so massive sympathies. When I get 5mins I'm going to start my thread too....
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Yay twin solidarity!! Although C seems to have her first tooth this morning so maybe that's not helping!!
Thinking sleepy thoughts for your 2. My friend has twins who are 3 and he says it's brilliant, they play together all the time and if they can't sleep they get on bed with each other. So just a couple of years and our lives will get really easy!!
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Teeth. Blame teeth always a good bet!
Here's hoping to easier lives in the future!
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To be honest, I think I am going to have to let them cry it out. My mum and husband have been telling me to for months. I have read the BW book about 4 times but I can't see what I can do differently, was really hoping someone here could help and that by making their morning nap 10 mins shorter or something it would miraculously get better....but I guess maybe these twins are too tough for BW!! C has been awake since 4 after 4 night wakings - I know I should keep her up til 9 but that is 5 hours of misery for all 3 of us. We'd had a really good day too so I feel like nothing I do makes any difference! She will cry on and off for those 5 hours - if I did CIO my mum assures me that within a week they'd be sleeping through. Right at the moment I'm so tired I'm crying every day, just cannot carry on like this!! I've even tried co sleeping which I swore I'd never do - makes no difference! I feel like such a failure as a mother, I'm back to work soon and I've spent all my precious maternity leave in a fog of tiredness and misery.
Hope your 2 are better than this!!
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Sorry, that was a bit of a rant!!
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Hi, I, sorry you're having a hard time. I only have one, but she is a little monkey too. She likes her early mornings and has been waking at 4:30-5 but I'm hoping I have figured it out. It sounds like most of your problems are with C - am I right? First, if she's in pain, she won't sleep well so I'd be making sure her reflux really is sorted and her teeth aren't bothering her. Do you think she's waking Z?
Re the early waking - what seems to be working for us is making the first nap really short and not too early. Tbh I don't let her nap before 9:30 - I never get her up before 6, and her a time is 3.5 hrs - and for no more than an hour. That's if she's ew. The last couple of days she's slept till 6.30 so her nap will be at 10 and for 40 minutes. It sounds crazy but it works for us. I think that's what BW is about - watching and learning about our Los and adapting to their needs. Tracey Hogg, who was the original BW, didn't believe in cio and believed it would damage the trust between you and your Los. There are other ways. Xxx.
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Hope your 2 are better than this!!
Not much! I've just started my thread in general sleep issues.
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Sarah can you post your routine please?
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Thanks Sarah - you are right, CIO has never felt like the right thing to do. C cries when I leave the room at the best of times so it would be a long and bloody battle!!
I'm pretty sure her reflux is ok - she still pukes a lot but isn't uncomfortable when she does - in fact fresh vomit is one of her favourite things to play with if I'm a bit slow cleaning up! And I dosed her up last night just on the off chance it was her teeth and it made no difference at all.
I will try making the morning nap shorter and later (it will be nasty though!!) but what do you do if you get an overtired 20 mins? Because C cannot be resettled from that. Just accept it and move on?
Also, what should I be doing about night feeds? Last night I fed C at midnight, 3 and 5. Z at 1 and 4. Should i try and wean them or should I just go with it until their sleep is generally better?
Thanks again for replying, I am so grateful! When everyone is telling you to CIO it's tough to stick to your guns with no support when you are sooooooo tired!!
Laura - your twins look hard work too! Are you BFing them?
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No I'm not bf so hats off to you.
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Hats off to both of us!! If you're a twin mum you are doing well to get them fed at all I think! We started mixed feeding but I used to get really anxious about sterilising the bottles (sounds crazy now!!) so BF was easier for me overall. I was lucky too that mine are v good feeders so it was ok.
C went down at 9:25 and Z at 9:30....wish me luck!!
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I'm fortunate in that no one (apart from one health visitor) has never pushed me to do CIO. It must be hard when someone does.
I think when I first started pushing Medi's first nap, she did wake at 30 mins a few times but I did manage to get her back off to sleep. The odd time I can't, but luckily she seems to make the second nap longer so it evens out, more or less.
As far as night feeds, I would think they should manage with one or two, so c probably doesn't need three. You can do pat/shh or pupd, or gentle removal where you nurse less and less each time to cut them out. I did pat/shh to cut out the 10:30 pm feed, it took probably 4-5 nights.
Laura, I shall visit your thread in gs and post there for you :)
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I hope they nap ok
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Well, they went down easily enough. I resettled C at 30 mins but Z is awake and not settling. She can tolerate it better though so I'll plough on!
Medi is a lovely name!!
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It will take a few days probably for them to settle. I can't imagine two! I know they say to keep them on the same routine where possible but it sounds like c is more sensitive.
Medi means September in Welsh.
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She is!! Poor little cupcake.
Thanks for all the help. I'll give it a few days and see how we go.
The other problem we have is that both of them struggle to do more than 3 h between last nap and bed. Is that ok at this age? They are 8.5 months....
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I don't think that's a problem as long as they're settling ok at bedtime.
Good luck.
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Just wanted to add some more support and back up Sarah's fab advice. It must be really hard when others are pushing you to CIO, but you know your LOs and we will be here to help you to be strong. (((Hugs))) keep going mama!
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Thanks everyone. Feels much better having a plan!
Yesterday they napped 9:30-10(z) 10:30 (c) and 2-4 (z woke up at 2:30 but resettled with shh pat, c woke up at 3:30 so I got her up but she fell asleep feeding!! They went to bed pretty easily - in bed at 7 and asleep at about 7:15 with me sitting by the door and shhing. However, the night was abysmal - c up every hour except 12-2, then awake 4-5, then up for the day at 5:45. Z up quite a bit too and wouldn't settle after 5. I've kept them up til 9:30 for their first nap (v messy) and will wake after an hour but should I have capped that afternoon nap at 1.5 hours? Or should I just let them sleep it out then?
Thanks again!
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Gah, well today we had a nap 9:30 til 10:30 but then 2:30-4 and bed at 7ish. Nights have been getting worse if anything. Losing my will....please hold my hand!
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Hand holding.
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Hand holding
Not had twins but 2 boys who have been very difficult sleepers, honestly can say that it's such a tough thing to get through but it does get better and seeing them get into bed happily and sleep all night - it's amazing! You can do it!
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It's getting worse. 4:30 this morning. They are grumpy already and it's only 8....feels a long time til half 9!!
C screamed for half an hour between 5 and 5:30 too - a really tired cry but wouldn't settle. Can't have been hunger or pain as as soon as lights went on they were fine. Also between half 4 and 5 was really happy and chatty!
Do I still persevere?
And thanks for the hand holding!
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Am I right that you're offering solids first thing in the morning, but no BF first? The number of milk feeds you are offering seems about right for this age, but I just wonder whether they're taking less as they're having solids first. It might be that there is some hunger in the morning. Bear in mind that until one solids are just for fun, and LOs get most of their nutritional support from milk in whatever form that comes. How long has it been since you have offered milk feed first in the morning and offered solids after? Are you doing BLW or traditional weaning with purees?
Is it quite a large meal of solids before the milk feed before BT?
Have you looked into whether C is possibly still uncomfortable from her reflux? How long ago was it she came off her medication and what was she taking previously?
Sorry to ask so many questions, I just want to make sure we have a full picture and don't suggest things that may not work. Adding more (((hugs)))
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((((hugs)))) You'll have seen on my thread I've just put a milk feed back in, our night was marginally better.
How late are they sleeping in the day and for how long? I actually think that is part of our problem too.
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Oh god, thank you for replying!!!
I have wondered that about the feeds. The health visitor suggested solids before milk but tbh she is a little weird. The reason I put the milk feed after breakfast is because they aren't usually v hungry for a feed first thing as they've had 2 or 3 in the night. So last night I fed at 11 and 2. C woke up at 4:30 and if they wake less than 3 hours after last feed I try to resettle without feeding, esp as she wasn't really crying, just awake. And although she was awake til half 5 the hv said that when you are sleep training you have to be consistent or else the baby thinks she has to scream for an hour before she gets fed. Although I personally don't think babies are that clever or that manipulative, but I guess she has her reasons. Also I am really conflicted because I want to feed less so that when I go back to work it's not an awful shock, but I want to feed less at night as I think it's v confusing for them that sometimes I feed them and sometimes I don't.
Can I post yesterday's EASY exactly as it happened? Then maybe you can help.... We started weaning pure Annabel karmel because their weight was dropping and it was that or formula, which they won't take! But they got ill after about 2 weeks and I think because I kept persevering with food they got a bit traumatised by the whole thing and meals became a massive battle. Then my husband witnessed a meal (he had been away) and told me how ridiculous it was trying to shovel baby rice into crying babies - we gave up solids completely for 2 days then started BLW. Now they have finger foods for every meal, plus a weetabix between them for breakfast and sometimes they will be spoonfed something they particularly like at supper time - usually bolognaise, rice pudding or yoghurt! Although they like to do the spooning themselves quite often so not always everything goes in. But their weight is fine I think - they have chubbed up a bit and I have stopped taking them to be weighed so much.
Awake at 5ish. Shh patted until 5:45 then have up and got them up
Had had a BF at about 4 I think.
Breakfast - 1 weetabix and one crumpet between them. A bit of banana but they didn't really eat it, mostly in each other's hair
BF at 8
Nap 9:30-10:30 (so about 3:45 out of bed, prob awake maybe up to 4:30?)
Awake and playing til 12:30
Lunch - Philadelphia sandwich, pear, banana, yoghurt, piece of cheese, tomato
Nap 2:30-4 (so awake time was 4 hours)
Bf 4:00
Played til 5:15
Supper - omelette, veg, rice pudding. Ate quite a lot
Bath 6:30
BF 7:00
C awake at 10, resettled really easily.
Both awake 11:30, fed and back to sleep. Both awake 2:30, fed and back to sleep.
C awake 4:30, initially happy awake, then screamed from 5-5:30, maybe 10 mins sleep then up for day.
I tried to drop a feed yesterday so that when I'm back at work they would only be missing one feed - was thinking I could feed at 8, 5, 7 and 10pm. I think I have found a formula they may take though so maybe I should try that. TBH I would happily feed 3x in the night if they would go back to sleep, HV said at this age they shouldn't feed at night and that their sleep would improve if I stopped, so I have been giving short feeds and only feeding twice a night. It all really goes agains what I think I should be doing though.
Gah. If you've read this you are a hero. I'm just getting so sad about it, we are all so tired and miserable, my boobs hurt and I feel like a rotten mummy. I don't want to go back to work at all, I don't want to stop BFing, I don't want to give them formula. But I have to do all of these things and it's breaking my heart, esp as I'm so tired all the time. Pathetic!
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Oh, and C was on ranitidine until about 6 months old, then I started forgetting it and it didn't seem to make much difference. She was dairy free until about 7 months then I retried dairy and it didn't make any difference either (when she was little if I had any milk it would trigger days of screaming!). They do vomit a lot but don't seem uncomfy with it. I'm taking her to GP on Wednesday anyway though so will ask then.
Thank you, and sorry. My hormones are all over the place and this has become my place to vent. It feels v safe here, it's a lovely thing!
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Vent away you need to!
How were they in their awake time of 4hrs? Esp after an hour nap?
gotta go back later!"
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Hugs honey, thank you so much for all that info, it will help and I will be back later once DD is asleep to data few things. I'm sure Laura will have some really helpful tips too.
Xx
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Thank you so much!!! :-\
Laura - they were fine in their 4 hours, took them upstairs at their first sleepy sign but then they were really hard to settle - we had visitors and I think the excitement masked the tiredness if that makes sense??
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Completely. Visitors are MUCH more exciting than sleep.
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How was last night? I was thinkin of you when I was up every hour! I'm sure if we get our heads together we may be able to get ourselves more sleep. Well I can hope. I'm going to see if another twin mum I know can join us.
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Pretty grim. C up at 9:30 and 10:30 but easy to resettle. Then fed at midnight and 3, went straight back to sleep. Awake at 3:30 but resettled. Awake at 4:30 and went back to sleep with shh pat but woke up as soon as I stopped, so I did it for half an hour! Then awake at 5 and screaming hysterically, got her up at half 5 and she was fine instantly. Z fed at 2 and 4:30 but awake (but happy) from 5. Just put them down for 9.30 nap but they have been miserable since 8:30.
How were your 2? Little monkeys these babies!!!
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Read my thread! Sounds like your night!
I'm thinking about putting J in our room in a travel cot for a couple of nights to see how well H sleeps - could that be an option for you?
I also think that your nap is too long too late in the day and there's not enough A time before bed, I find my two don't do well sleeping later in the day (and that may be the reason for my bad night last night) I think you should aim for a 12.30pm/1pm till 2pm - 2.30pm and bed between 6.30pm and 7pm especially as they're waking so early. I'd cap the morning nap at say 45mins and bring the second nap earlier.
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Ok, but keep the first nap at 9:30? Because even if I cap it at 45 mins at 1 they would have had less than 3h A, and short a means long A during the night for us. Also, I am usually on my own at bedtime and any more than 3:30 A before bed ends in a screaming meltdown and me having to pat to sleep, which I am trying to avoid as I will then end up doing it all night. I'll give it a shot (I'd try anything at this stage, if you told me to put them to nap on the dining table i would!) but I can't work out my EASY....
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Will they nap 2hrs? or are they a bit inconsistent? Will they still be up a lot if you did longer A before bed even with a shorter A in the middle? just thinking out loud! Also if you cap the nap they won't need as long an A time in the middle.
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Won't nap 2 hours. 1.5 is our record I think. And unless we have a reasonable A they will only do 45 mins.....
I really appreciate you helping me out, esp as you must be knackered!! Can't imagine how your brain is still working at all after your night!!
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It's not! I may just be talking rubbish! ;) We don't really get 2hr naps either.
So you could do 1st nap at 9.30 - 10.15 and second at 1.30 till 3pm? and bedtime at 6.30ish?
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Yes, could do that I reckon. Will give it a shot and let you know. God, I hate waking them from naps though!!!!
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Hey guys,
Just a thought - only because this is what I had to do with E - she needed a longer first A and a full nap was good after that. We never got a good nap after a reduced A time (even following a capped first nap) so we went for a long morning nap and a short afternoon CN instead. I don't wish to suggest you move things around suddenly without trying Laura's suggestions first, but I just wonder if this pattern might suit your LOs better.
.I'm just getting so sad about it, we are all so tired and miserable, my boobs hurt and I feel like a rotten mummy. I don't want to go back to work at all, I don't want to stop BFing, I don't want to give them formula. But I have to do all of these things and it's breaking my heart, esp as I'm so tired all the time. Pathetic!
Not at all pathetic honey, and you are not a rotten mummy - you are managing incredibly well!!
I do think that although you want to reduce day milk feeds due to heading back to work, and this reverse cycling can work from a feeding point of view, this wil only work if you are happy to accept lots of night feeds instead. It may not be the best thing overall for you and your LOs. I don't wish to tell you what to do as this is such a personal decision, but if I were you, I'd probably want to work more towards getting more milk into them in the daytime (even if this means using formula as well as BM) and try and help us all get some more sleep.
This is easy for me to say as E and I couldn't work out the feeding thing so only managed 7 weeks - 8.5months of BFing twins sounds like incredible work to me :) I do remember how awful it felt giving formula and bottles though so would never push you to try it if it makes you unhappy.
I have wondered that about the feeds. The health visitor suggested solids before milk but tbh she is a little weird
This is a little odd. The usual "food is for fun until one" advice means that milk is suggested before solids. This is so that they take more milk rather than filling up on less nutritious solids, but also so that with BLW they are not "too hungry" when you offer finger foods. If you are following BLW it is likely that your LOs will take what they need from solids but they could still eat more than they need at this stage and take less milk in the day, leaving them more hungry at night and more prone to waking.
Are you heading back to work soon honey? Remember that there is a lot of change in the next couple of months. BLW babies often need more milk feeds a little later as they are taking in less from the solids. In the next couple of months they may drop one or two day feeds naturally anyway. E was on four day feeds plus a DF at 8.5 months, but had dropped the DF at 10 months and went to 3 day feeds a little after that. If you're not back at work too soon, you may be able to keep going and let things change naturally while you work on getting those night feeds down a bit and getting you all some more sleep.
If you are heading back quite soon, and you want to try and get rid of the night feeds too (you may choose to keep them) then we can come up with a plan.
((Hugs))
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Also, was just browsing the site and spotted this, you might find the posts from everyone a little reassuring:
Advice on transition to going back to work
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You are all amazing, thank you so much!! Here us my plan for your perusal.
1 I will stop trying to force feed them a at supper time. This was the hv's idea and it has really gone against the grain. Yesterday and today we just did standard blw suppers and they took good feeds at bedtime, and last night I didn't have to feed til midnight, where it had been earlier than this.
2. I'm going to give them a cup of formula and an orange (their favourite!!) as a snack when they wake up from their first nap. We sometimes miss this feed anyway so this will be extra. If it works well
I will then do the same with the other daytime feed after a few days.
3. I capped their first nap today and got a short second nap too, which has been fairly disastrous!! Practically it would work much better for me to have a long first nap and short second as if we wanted to go out it could be in the pushchair. I also get v anxious about naps so if the first one is a good one I can relax a bit!! I will keep the late first nap and maybe try for longer A before bed - they've done 4 hours this evening so we'll see what happens. Short, late first nap has given us grumpy babies and hasn't done anything for the EW. And tbh I can cope with 5:30 if I have to!!
4. I will try to relax about it. I feel that they should be sleeping through, should be down to 3 bf a day, etc, because my NCT friends have babies who are. But my babies are bright, beautiful and charming and I'd rather have them with all their challenges than anyone else's baby. I knew having kids was going to be hard work and I have to go with my instincts a bit more!!
I'm back at work in 6 weeks so there's still time for things to change. And I would like more sleep...but their babyhood is v short in the grand scheme of things!!
Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted. Feel like I've got my mummy mojo back a bit!!
Xxxxxxxxxxxx to you alll
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We've been doing long am nap and then whatever they do it the afternoon for the same reasons I just thought it might work for you. Sorry I caused you two grumpy babes I def wouldn't wish that on anyone.
I think it sounds like you're following your instincts which sometimes can be hard to find but this is def the right course of action and prob bouncing ideas has hopefully helped. Keep us posted.
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I didn't mean to sound blamey Laura, they don't need any help to be grumpy and TBH it probably would work, lots of people have told me to do it in the past! I just don't have the will power to go through with it! I think if I can get them sleeping a bit better at night then I will work on the early mornings - maybe when I'm back at work then the childminder can cope with their grumpiness!!
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I'm worried I've upset you :-[
It was more about the BFing anyway - I think they were starting to reverse cycle (had not heard of that, sounds terrifying!!) and I am much happier now we are back as we were. I just feel like everyone is telling me to stop and if they would take bottles I wouldn't mind as it would still be a nice cuddle, but the only way they'll drink formula is sitting in their high chairs. You know what it's like with twins, it's hard enough to get a cuddle at the best of times!
Sad, sad, sad :'(
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I'm worried I've upset you
It'd take more than that to upset me!! I completely get where you're coming from I didn't think you were blaming me, I was just sad for you it didn't work. :-*
I just can't believe you are still bf. That really is amazing and tbh you must be exhausted.
Go with the long am nap and whatever you get in the afternoon, I would just perhaps limit it depending on the time they go down to ensure you have enough A time till bed.
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Yes yes, I think more A before bed is key. They had 4h this evening after dreadful naps (not planned but daddy came home during bath time then they were too excited to settle!!) and tbh it wasn't as messy as I had feared!! I have rammed them with breastmilk today hoping they'll be so fed up of boob they won't wake up at all!!
BFing was exhausting to start with but I found it much less anxiety-inducing than bottles - I used to get really paranoid about germs, would run the steriliser loads of times in a row, couldn't let anyone else wash the bottles or do the steriliser.....it was tough times mixed feeding and I felt much better when I didn't have to do any of that! Also I was too paranoid to use powdered formula so we were using only the cartons and it was so expensive!! BFing was the lazy option for me as my babies were good at it, I don't deserve any praise for it!!
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I used to worry about germs and bottles too, when I first gave E a bottle I worried about it for a long time before I felt ok to give it to her. The thing to remember is now they are older they're getting food which is not sterile and other things in their mouths (things they pick up from the floor etc) so it's not quite so vital that everything is super clean. You still need to sterilize obviously, but it's not quite so dangerous for an older LO to have exposure to a few germs.
I think your plan sounds like a good one, and well done for getting your mummy-mojo back! :) this job is a hard one and we can be our own worst critics. You guys with twins are super amazing!!!
Keep us posted xxx
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Dear lilyrose
Congratulations on surviving 8.5 months with twins!
Laura asked me to to take a look at your post to see if I could add anything. I also have fraternal twin girls. And I did mixed breast feeding and formula feeding from the beginning but weaned completely on to
formula at six months when I started blw. Also had one refluxer who was on ranitidine briefly.
It's tough isn't it, with two.... Tougher than you could ever explain to people!
My girls are 11 months now but I remember this 8-9 month mayhem really well. There was a short period of time when they would nap 2x1.5 hours consistently but then it started getting choppy, just like you're describing. As a result of this mayhem there were two transitions necessary... Dropping a bottle feed and shifting the naps to one short (45 mins) and one longer (2 hours) nap. And yes, dropping the night feeds too (although I wasn't breast feeding at this stage so please get clarification of this for breast fed babies from the appropriate boards). I would offer water at night if they couldn't settle with their dummy. Oh and I filled both cribs with 20 dummies and before long they were able to find one themselves and replug themselves!!!!!!! Worked a treat as I didn't want to wean them as I think they so valuable for synchronizing twins.
It looks as if you have found your own way forward with this by offering a snack on waking from the first nap (we did the same) and capping the second nap to allow a four hour awake period before bed time. It's so painful (for us) to wake sleeping babies at nap times but it works really well to preserve appropriate bed times so that chronic over tired does not set in.
How have the night times been since you put the new plan in place?
Let us know if anything else needs tweaking.
Sorry I'm a little late in on this I've been travelling with the girls for a month so have been missing from the boards lately.
With all best wishes
Beth
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Well, we had our best night for ages last night - c awake briefly at 10:30 but settled v easily and didn't feed til 2! Then c awake again 4:00 but down again 4:30-5 and 5:20-5:45. Z fed at 2:15 then up for the day at 5 but that's much better than we have been. Z only managed 30 mins this morning (grrr) and because she's taking so long to settle c had an hour then, so I'll just go with the flow now but get them up in plenty of time for a long A before bed. And they had some raisins (bribe!) and formula at 10:30....not much, but it's a start!!!
Thanks again mummies!!
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well done you - fab work xx
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Yes brilliant news... Well done you and well done girls!
Expect a few good nights then another bad one or two then even more good nights etc until eventually they are pretty much all good..... It does happen so hang in there!
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Oh god....c vomited herself awake from her second nap and has been puking ever since....and z has diarrhoea!! Hopefully though we will be able to get ourselves back on track when they are better. Our first tummy bug....I've been dreading it!!!
Still, at least I had a good night last night to strengthen myself and I've got a plan in place for when they are better!!
Thanks again!!
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Oh no. Vibes they get well quickly - make sure you wash your hands loads!
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Oh no, hugs honey and vibes they get well quickly xxx
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LilyRose22..I only have one DD (10 months) and am miserable dealing with EW but just wanted to say how impressive you seem...my DD is FF aswell so not even feeding as often as BF, and again, there's only one baba to deal with. Am so impressed that you manage to do so much outdoors activity on such little sleep...some days I can only manage a little stroll outdoors as I just want to lie down on the ground and sleep.
I've just started trying to train her out of the EW...others here have said that a short A time after EW reinforces the early start as her body clock is tuned now to getting a nap within 2 hours of being up...so the thing to do is go for a 3-4 hour A time after getting up so if she wakes early she knows she won't get back to sleep for a good while, and will sleep on for a bit...like you I want a long AM nap and a short PM one..it seems to suit her better.
I've just started extending that first A this week so know it will take a while to see results....I'm mostly posting just to say how impressed I am that you are doing so well after such an exhausting 8 months!
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You're really sweet!! I am lucky with my babies - they don't sleep much and Cs reflux was quite trying....but in general they are quite easy to look after and I certainly feel like I don't deserve all the praise I'm getting here!! I like it though!!
This bug has wiped them out - they were up at 5:30 but fell asleep feeding at half 8 for 15 mins....and still went down at 9:30 and are still asleep now! Poor little things!
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This bug has wiped them out - they were up at 5:30 but fell asleep feeding at half 8 for 15 mins....and still went down at 9:30 and are still asleep now! Poor little things!
When LOs are poorly just let them sleep when they need to and go with the flow a bit (I always found this quite hard - but it does help them get well) so you're doing just the right thing. You can start with ST and routine tweaking again once they're properly well.
More (((hugs)))
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Sorry to be so needy, but they are really struggling with the aftermath of this bug and 2 teeth at once! Currently really struggling with A times, they are rubbing eyes after 2 hours and we are just about managing 3 (were going up to nearly 4 before all this). Waking at least every hour between 12 and 4, then every 20 mins til 6 when I got them up. And every nap and bedtime is a screamfest, am having to shh pat through 10 mins screaming until they go to sleep when we had got to me sitting by the door using my sleepy words. And so am having to shh pat all night because they are like junkies and anything I do becomes a prop. They are also falling asleep over their feeds and if they are in the car or buggy for more than 10 mins even if they've only just woken up! I think they are overtired, where do I go from here??
It was all going so well.....please help me!!
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PS though, thanks to you ladies, when my mum told me (AGAIN!!!) to let them CIO I replied "I have decided that I will never do that as it is not in the best interests of my babies long-term and there are other ways". Stumped her completely and she hasn't mentioned it again. So thank you for giving me the confidence to say that!!
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Are they better now and stopped teething?
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The teeth are through the gum and they have stopped vomiting but they are miserable! Not sure if still ill or just really over tired. What do I do??
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If you can I would spend at least three or four days at home or very close to home with them to get napping back on track. Once naps are on track nights will follow and early waking can be tweaked. So don't give them the opportunity to fall asleep in the stroller or car. If you need to nip out do it as soon as they've been fed after waking and get back at least 45 mins before nap time (just to avoid them falling asleep too early followed by an unsuccessful transfer from car to crib).
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Thanks, I will! But what about all this screaming? It's like they hate their cots all of a sudden - I put them down after 3 hours A and they still screamed for 10 mins before going to sleep. Is it because I tried to persevere with my schedule too much when they were ill so they've got into the habit of this overtired screaming? H in particular was rubbing her eyes and yawning after she had been up half an hour this morning, and yawning is a v late sign in mine!! But how can I deal with the overtiredness if they won't sleep longer than an hour and a half (if I'm lucky!) and barely sleep at night??
Feel like I want to cry!!
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I can see your mind working overtime right now trying to figure it out... 'What have I done wrong?' 'why all this screaming?' 'Did I push them too hard?' 'Have I done unreparable damage?'. And I feel your pain, frustration and confusion. I've been there.
Tune into that because it is likely that this connection you have with the bubs gives you direct insight into how they are feeling.... Frustrated, tired, in pain, confused, and like life is free falling, spinning out of control (my interpretation of how things might be for them but you will know better).
All you can do is understand that and be there with them, whilst providing them appropriate opportunities for sleep or rest, eating and playing. (Which if you take a minute out to recognize what you are achieving, you are likely to see that you are already doing this).
You had an amazing bw plan that you are trying to head back towards and you'll get there and so will they. Unless you think things have changed so much that the plan needs tweaking. Let us know if you need help with this. Let us know if it would be helpful to see our easy routine from when my girls were 8.5 months old.
Sending you confidence and strength! Hang in there..
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That's just made me cry. It's exactly how I'm feeling!! Thank you!
I'd love to see your EASY if you have a minute
Xxx
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I wish I was there to hug you right now... But you don't even have time for a hug do you?!
This is how I remember our easy looking at 8-9 months and I'll also mention the choppy bits that needed tweaking and how we tweaked them as I go along. Oh and btw I'm on my phone right now so please excuse typos.
E 6/6.30 wake up and feed (formula) if they woke earlier I obviously resettled them but I ignored it from the routine perspective.
A change diapers, play
07.30 breakfast
Walk doggies, more playing (please note when I say play or playing I mean babies doing their own thing and me running around like a looney clearing up or folding washing or whatever! And if one or both were fussy id just wear them in slings whilst I did my jobs)
S 9/9.30- 1030/11.00 sleep
E on wAking (bottle
A go out and do errands and give lunch
S 13.30/14.00-15.00/15.30 sleep
E on waking (bottle)
A playground then dinner then bath
17.30/18.00 bottle and book (if overtired it would be difficult to get a good bottle feed in here so we often did another top up right before bed)
18.30/19.00 bed
This is what I learned and therefore tweaked during this time:
Just accept a total day time sleep of 3 hours.. However that looks I.e might be two hours one morning and an hour the afternoon or the other way around another day.
They started to take very small feeds after both naps so I cut the 11 am feed and offered a snack instead and then gave a milk feed before the next nap. And then cut the milk feed after the second nap.
Eventually because of the variability that accompanied nap times with two babies I made a decision to bring the first nap slightly earlier and cap it at 45 mins and extend the second nap to two hours (which they managed really well straight after a milk feed).
So our easy changes to this...
E 6.30
A play breakfast 7.30
S 8.30-9.15
E snack on waking
A play and lunch 11.00
E milk feed 12.15
S 12.30-14.30 my girls need four hours awake time before bed)
A play dinner (16.30) bath (17.30)
E milk feed 18.30
18.30/19.00 bed
I can't seem to read this back so I'm hoping makes sense. Will check in again later.
Once again, sending strength
Xxxx
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FWIW mine including the first would only cry at being put down too soon. Perhaps they need 15mins more a time?
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How are you doing?
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Between bad and horrific. C was up every 45 mins last night except between 2:30 and 4:30, and Z was up then. C has another tooth coming and has such bad separation anxiety I have had to start taking her to the toilet with me or she screams the place down. I think I will start giving her a dummy at bedtime again - this morning after breakfast she picked up her sister's, put it in her mouth and fell asleep on the rug! She had been up since 4:30 but I still thought maybe she was trying to tell me something! It's worth a try!!
How are you?
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Hi Lilyrose22,
I've just logged on after a month of not checking the forum. I have twin girls who also suffered from reflux and slept no more than an hour every night and needed resettling. It was extreme to say the least, and I only had 2 hours sleep a night for the first 6 months.
I still remember locking myself in the bathroom and never wanting to come out because I would at least have some peace - and fall asleep!
I decided to use the shush pat technique on mine and I did have quite a long thread on here giving, almost daily updates on my progress. I'll post the link in a moment.
I will say it took us about 6-8 weeks to get our little ones to go to sleep for the entire night and there were nights where I just couldn't see that any difference had been made but with the support of the ladies here I carried on and now they do sleep from 7pm until 6am.
It takes a lot of hard work and you have to really steel yourself to not get emotional about the crying but it really dies get better.
What worked for me was separating them. I split them and my husband I shush patted them separately - each one taking the worst sleeper for 3 nights at a time.
We then brought them back together and did a bit more shush pat until they got used to each other again.
We bottle fed, and we knew our babies definitely relied on those feeds so much that they were only taking 90mls at each feed during the day. At 6 months they were still on tiny bottles. We decided to cut a feed at a time. And we found that overnight they took 180 during the day because they knew the night feeds weren't happening any more and we suddenly found yourself on big bottles.
Each wake took around 3 hours to resettle with little twin. But what we started to do was stop the patting and start just resting our hand on them instead. When we mastered this, we then went on to just shushing and removing our hand before they actually fell asleep. So just at the point of them going silent.
It felt like a battle of wills to me. Our little girl is VERY stubborn and it really was challenging because she tested us every night. I think 4 weeks in the crying reducing to 2 wakes a night (with around an hour and a half of settling) but that got less and less and really once she bought into shush pat the whole process got a lot quicker for us.
You just have to believe that it will end. You just can't see it yet! But somewhere they are learning this new way of sleeping.
I hope this helps a bit!!! I don't know if it does at all.
Xxx
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Here is my thread:
6 month old night wakings - trying shush pat
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Thank you all for your help. We have been away, and the girls have colds, so everything is up in the air again. And I've given C back her dummy - for better or for worse, but I couldn't stand all the screaming at bedtime and nap times - it was making feel so awful and like such a bad mum! And I have to go back to work really soon and I'm hoping the dummy will make it easier at the child minders. And we are all so unhappy such a lot of the time it feels like a small thing to try and make life a little bit less traumatic.
UB that EASY looks good. The only thing is I get so anxious about naps that I feel much better if the first one is a long one as I then feel like it doesn't matter so much about the second one and I can try to enjoy the day a bit. But I've had to put them down early this morning so maybe we will try it today!
Nippo - I've read your thread and it's really helpful. I don't have much support at night as my husband works nights a lot so I don't think I can separate them like you did, but it's v encouraging to see it working out. My little C settles really well with shh pat but then it became a prop too. I think maybe she just needs a prop and now she can re plug herself (at least in the daytime!!) the dummy might be the way forward. I do feel like such a failure though. Just not parenting v well at the moment I don't think! And of course I have the usual CIO chorus from everyone around me so I also feel very alone! You guys are saving my sanity!
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You are not a failure honey!! This is hard enough with one baby and with night support, managing two on your own is very very tough. Here to hold your hand sweetie.
I think going with the dummy is quite possibly the right move for you now. It will help while you try and settle two babies.
Can't post more for now but will come back later - couldn't read and not add hugs xxxx
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Thank you!!
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No way are you a failure!! Omg I take my hat off to you for managing on your own at night. I could never do that (I think it's amazing you've got this far!!)
Try not to put too much pressure on yourself. If it feels stressful for you and the babies then stop. Every day is a new start and if you feel you can't do it wait until you feel that you can.
I think sleep training twins is really hard. It's impossible to split yourself in 2 and the length of time it takes in the beginning, you really need another person to help you. I made my husband take 2 weeks off work I found it so hard.
Please don't be hard on yourself. You've done so brilliantly xxxx
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Thanks again, I feel a whole lot better! The dummy is the right decision for us, we were all dreading every nap and bedtime so we are all a lot calmer now! And last night was reasonable:
Bed at 7:30 (had had really long pm nap so pushed bedtime a bit later)
C woke at 10 for dummy - held it out to her (have tied it in a muslin until her sleepytot arrives) and she plugged it in in the end. She then woke at 2 for a feed, a few shenanigans getting back to sleep with dummy falling out but then back down til 5:10. I heard her whimpering a bit on odd occasions but must have put herself back to sleep.
Z woke at 12:30 for feed (unusual for her!), then at 4 for feed, then up at 5:10 but I think that's because C woke her.
So.....if I can get C to sort out her own dummy and I go to bed at 8:30 and Z goes back to sleeping til 2 and I stop fighting it and let them get up at 5......that will be one night waking!!!!!!!!! Then I will try and wean that feed off by doing the feed for less time thing and we will all sleep through the night!!
;D guess we are a way off that....but it feels good to have had a less traumatic night, even if I still saw nearly every hour I think!!
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Glad you feel a bit more positive about things. :-*
Nippo I don't suppose you fancy hopping on to my thread too to see what you think please?
Help needed with twins
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Sure! Although I'm no expert! X
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Ok, serves me right for being smug, but last night was just awful. Can anyone help? Here is yesterday's EASY.....
5:10 awake for the day
5:30 BF
6:30 breakfast
9:10 nap (was meant to be 9:00 fixed nap but took a while to settle!)
9:42 awake - woken by doorbell and wouldn't resettle so up
11:30 bf
12:30 lunch
13:20 sleep (was meant to be 13:30 but settled really quickly). C needed resettling twice during nap but slept til 15:30
15:30 BF
17:30 supper
Asleep by 19:15
Night wakings - c at 10 (handed dummy, back to sleep), 11 (needed shh pat), 11:20 (more shh pat), 11:30 (just shhh). Awake at 2 for feed, then at 4 (brought her into our bed, was desperate!!), up 5:30
Z at midnight (fed), 2 (shh pat), 3 (shh pat), 4 (fed). Up at 5:30
All 4 of us knackered and cross. Any suggestions welcome!!!
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Waking every hr often suggests pain or discomfort - thinking of z night. But to be honest after my night it sounds like yours also need to learn to 'resettle' without you at all. Not that I know the answer esp when you're trying to keep one asleep.
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The thing is that they can - I heard lots and lots of little cries then resettling in the night. And usually they are reasonably good at it - z sucks her thumb, c has her dummy. But c was crying with the dummy in her mouth and was really upset esp between 11 and 12. No obvious teeth but who knows? Maybe I'll give them some meds tonight and see if it helps!
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The thing is mine can also resettle it just isn't v consistent.
Worth trying some meds perhaps.
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Oh poor you. What a fantastic day though! That second nap... Wonderful :).
Did they have another bf before bed? Assuming they did and you just didn't write it down?
I'm guessing an overtired nighttime as wake up so early.... But that's going to shift over time remember!
I'd say keep going with it and it's going to settle down at night.
You're doing an amazing job and I can only imagine the pain you're in after a night like that (though that never comes across in your writing). They are going to have another two hour nap later so you can shut your eyes for an hour....I said so!
Sending strength for today and the next few nights
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But c was crying with the dummy in her mouth and was really upset esp between 11 and 12. No obvious teeth but who knows? Maybe I'll give them some meds tonight and see if it helps!
I agree that meds are worth a try :)
They are going to have another two hour nap later so you can shut your eyes for an hour....I said so!
I second this!!!
Looking at the day I agree with UB that it was probably OT wakings. Try not to worry about it, this was your first day of fixing the naps and this usually leads to OT for the first few days. It can take up to a week for LOs to settle onto a more fixed routine, so stay strong and keep going, here to hold your hand - you can do it :) xxx
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Thanks everyone!! It's all gone to pot today as we had a hospital appointment and I thought they'd sleep in the car on the way there, and c did but z didn't so by the time she fell asleep and had half an hour c had had 1:15 and I couldn't really wake her as we had to keep driving for z to sleep. Then c had 10 mins in the car on the way back (after an A time of 90 mins!!!!). Have just put them down now, will freestyle the rest of the day and try again tomorrow. You were all right about teeth though....1 more poking through for c today! That's 3 teeth in 3 weeks, gah!! Lots of drugs tonight!!
Thanks again for the support. My husband wanted to let them CIO at 11 but I feel v supported to say that is a bad thing to do, and now I've seen the tooth I'm esp glad I didn't!!
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Ughhh yes wing it for the rest of the day! Ughhhh teeth!!
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This is a new problem - C falls asleep beautifully at the beginning of the night, I wasn't even in the room, with or without dummy, then wakes up 10 mins later screaming. It is then taking ages for her to resettle. She falls asleep for up to 5 mins then wakes up screaming again. We've been at it for nearly an hour. She's holding the dummy in herself and screaming round it. I'm right beside her cot saying the sleepy words so she's not scared, she's full of calpol, she has her dummy. I don't understand what's happening? I have had to come back in the room as she was going ballistic.
Do I just need to either be tougher and stay outside the room saying the sleepy words and let her scream herself to sleep? Or does this mean she has lost trust in me and I need to restart the gradual retreat?
Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh!!!!! It's really unfair to have such a difficult baby as part of twins!!! Twins should all be good sleepers!!!
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What was their total day time sleep in the end? I know with one of mine if she's under tired she's not happy in her crib but the other one is ok...
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About 2.5 hours....but I think they are very tired from last night, have been grumpy and clingy all day. And woke up grumpy from the pm nap. In a really good mood at bedtime though and went to sleep initially without a peep.
Maybe it's because with ST I've always concentrated on first going to sleep, and have done what it takes to get them back to sleep at night wakings. My husband is doing the first shift and if she cries will go to her, put a hand on her back so she knows he's there, hand a dummy into her hand then sit by the cot and say the sleepy words til she goes down. Is that an ok plan? She will cry, but I know she can go to sleep by herself.
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Feel mean though....
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Def sounds like a plan and something you (and I) need to do.
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Well....turns out I didn't need to. C slept til 1, then fed, woke at 3 but just grumbled herself back to sleep, 4 and fed and up at 5:15. Z up at 2 to feed, then 4:30 to feed and didn't really go back to sleep. But.....I went to bed at 8:30 so had a reasonable amount of sleep, they woke up happy and we've had a nice morning. Went down for nap really easily at 9:10 so will wake by 10 if they aren't up and then try and hold out til 1:30 for next nap. Feeling v positive esp as found a forgotten Easter egg in cupboard which I are for breakfast ;D
The only thing is.....they are only really getting 10 hours of sleep a night. Plus 2.5 - 3.5 in the day if we do well. Is this enough or should I move bedtime a bit earlier? Couldn't face earlier waking is the only thing....
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That sounds like a really good plan
I think when you are sleep training there are good days and bad. Some days they would wake 3 times in an hour, other days they would go down for 2 hours or more! Babies just are unpredicatible little people.
When we tried shushing them to sleep some days they would need us to pat them all the way into sleep. I kinda just gave them what they needed. It did feel a bit like I was going backwards especially when we got to the point when we knew they could resettle. And we'd have to go back in and put them to sleep.
The key is to try not to pick them up. We did exactly what you're doing. My husband stayed up until 2am and I would deal with night wakings after. We then decided we would take a baby each. My husband took the better sleeper midweek and then we'd swap. Later it became clear that I needed more sleep - I work too - all day with no break. So we split the week. And it was easier to handle the exhausting night waking.
I still remember how desperately exhausted I was. I called my friend almost in tears as I just wanted to know when I would see any improvement. The thing is, the wake ups are all part of them learning, and at some point in the next few weeks something will happen and you will notice they are doing something differently... Hang in there. You really are doing brilliantly.
P.s are you using blackout blinds? Really helped me
Xx
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Easter egg breakfasts are the best! I had some this morning too!
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Thanks nippo! I never pick them up, but know what you mean about good and bad days. You're right, I think we just have to go with it a bit! They have put themselves to sleep for their nap with me outside the room shhhhing and also z woke up but put herself back to sleep and C hasn't needed a resettle. So this is all good!
I should get some blackout blinds then! Do you have the ones that attach to the window?
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Glad you had that chunk of sleep. Very soon it will be even longer!
Re total amount of sleep: it think the as they mature and grow and take more from breast feedings as well as regular food the mornings will start later, filling in that 1-2 extra hours they really need.
And black out blinds could help a bit with that for now.
I don't think you need to bring bed time earlier just yet but if may need to on the occasion where perhaps it's a 5 am start followed by only 2hrs total nap time for example.... But now I'm teaching you to suck (Easter) eggs!
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I got gro blinds - they sucker to the window. We found ours began waking at 5am because of the light coming in. They naturally think it's morning. And daytime naps were quite short and easily disturbed because they saw light through the window and they instantly woke up.
Now it's not pitch black, but dark enough for them to think it is dark outside and they get quite drowsy as a result - ready for bed. In BW book I remember light being one of the main reasons for wakings etc. It took me ages to actually invest in one because in winter it was dark early - but I have now realised that it is essential for mine to sleep a bit longer during the day. We still battle with day naps but not the 20 minutes that we used to get (although it still happens occasionally).
I think some people also recommend easy blind which Velcro's to the window. But I found mine on offer and it was cheap so it was better to try a cheap solution and see if it worked first...
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I've just ordered some!! At that price I can't really lose!
Well, I was weak and let them sleep an hour this morning as they looked so cute and I was enjoying my coffee. And I have paid for it as it has just taken Z 30 mins to settle!
Onwards and upwards!!
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Try not to worry. I got a bit obsessed with how long it took them to actually go down. Now I'm actually through it, I can see that the point is that they did actually go down independently of you!! Yippee - big pat on the back. You will see that once they learn how to do it, the anxiety you feel when you leave them and hear them making noise will become less and less until it really is nothing.
I literally sat outside the door punishing myself listening to every squeak and moan and wondering if I was damaging them. I dreaded every nap time and bedtime. I wanted my husband not to go to work because I found it so hard dealing with them both. But it does get easier. I didn't stagger mine because they would disturb each other - I'm not sure if that is an option for you?
I think that in all my my anxiety I did lose sight of the fact that each time they went to sleep (even if only for 20 mins) they were still learning to go to sleep without me. And eventually they began to do this at night. I also began to learn the difference between a real cry and a whine and a mantra cry. My bigger twin never liked me leaving her and would whine as I left the room. That went on for about 4 months and she has only just stopped doing it. I struggled with whether to go in or hang back...in the end I played it by ear. If she sounded really needy I would stay with her until she settled (but not right into sleep), other times I would hold off for a minute and she would stop and go to sleep. I am hoping that by going in when she needs me I will avoid separation anxiety...
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I am at the end of my tether. They settled perfectly at the beginning of the night, I wasn't even in the room. C wke up at 10 and I helped her find her dummy. Then they both woke at 1 and I fed them. Then C woke at 3....and I have resettled her 13 times in the last hour. She has had calpol, back rubbing, dummy, shh pat.....she goes back to sleep but wakes up again even if I carry on doing it. I'm feeding her again now although I cannot imagine she was hungry at 3 but I am on my knees with tiredness. I cried for 2 hours yesterday morning just out of sheer exhaustion. I have been sleep training them for months and nothing is getting any better. It's 4 am, I've been awake since 3 and will have to get up in an hour. My husband isn't home til Friday afternoon. I just don't think I can cope any more.
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Lilyrose22,
You are doing so well. I know exactly how you feel and if it is too hard then get through it doing what you need to do until your husband gets home.
You need to rest and so don't worry if you need to apop for a bit to get through the night.
I had many nights like this and I actually was quite depressed because I was exhausted. Do you have somebody who can come round to give you a couple of hours of sleep?
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Ugh, I hate nights like that. We get them too, it's rotten. Did she go back to sleep in the end? I hope so.
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I want to give you a big hug. You really are doing well. Honestly, I am so impressed at how far you've come on your own.
Can your husband take some time off to help you for a couple of weeks? I do think it is supremely difficult doing it alone xx
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Hugs gratefully received! But sadly no, I'm in it on my own. C slept for a hour after the feed then woke up at 5 really upset. I took her into bed with me as she was waking Z and she snoozed for half an hour. We were all up at 5:30. I feel like it's one step forward, 2 steps back though. I know her teeth are hurting her but when I try to resettle her I have to hold the dummy in her mouth or she pulls it out, she's in a real state! I think she can usually do the routine replugs herself now so it's just whatever is going on at the moment!
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Many many hugs sweetie.
I agree that this sounds like discomfort from the teething. Like pps have said, do whatever you need to to get by for now (even apop), get yourself some rest too if you can and remember that however awful this feels it WILL pass.
I'm not sure what meds you are using but remember that if she's really struggling (and not able to get comfort from her dummy) you can give paracetamol and ibuprofen together. This can sometimes be of help when one of them is not enough alone.
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You are all lovely!! I think tonight I will give paracetamol and ibuprofen when I feed at 1 or 2. The trouble is it's such a battle getting it down her but if I have it ready in the syringes I can squirt it in when she's screaming!
Thank goodness it's nearly the weekend. One more night on my own then back up will appear. It's just so hard to find any joy in parenting at the moment. And it's not fair on the girls to have such a grumpy mum all the time!
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Hugs and def do both meds. I agree about giving yourself a break and allowing some ap. Remember it can be undone. Well that's what I'm telling myself.
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Believe me I was one grumpy parent while doing it! And it does seem like nothing is happening for absolutely ages. But it will happen.
When your husband gets back, you will have to get him to do at least one night so you can get your breath back.
It sounds like teething pains, I felt like mine were forever teething and still no teeth! Draw a line under last night if you can. Today is a new start. I just you could have a bit more rest, you see things differently when you have a sleep. Just think - one more night and the cavalry arrives!
Xxx
Xx
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They are hopefully just going to sleep, then I can have a shower, some coffee and some frosties! And the world will look brighter. And I will try to nap or at least rest during their afternoon nap, the housework can just disintegrate as my lovely husband will sort it out when he gets home! And I have pizza and wine for my supper to look forward too!! :D
So is it ok to pat or shh or feed etc if they are getting really upset? I try so hard not to bring them into bed but I just feel so tired leaning over those cots!!!
Please do a little sleepy dance for me at bedtime if you are reading!!!
Ps button bobs is your profile picture your daughter? Her hair is beautiful!!!
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Have you tried just leaving them alone if they are just whinging / moaning and only go to them if they are crying? Do they set each other off?
Have you tried pupd with Z (if she's the one who doesn't have the dummy?) also with C (if she's the one with the dummy - sorry very tired brain here too!) have you tried just letting her pull the dummy out? With H I've noticed recently I put him down with the dummy he pulls it out and plays with it has a loud cry and then conks out - usually without dummy in his mouth. However he will replug in the night and I can use it to settle him and resettle him...weird huh?!
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They are hopefully just going to sleep, then I can have a shower, some coffee and some frosties! And the world will look brighter. And I will try to nap or at least rest during their afternoon nap, the housework can just disintegrate as my lovely husband will sort it out when he gets home! And I have pizza and wine for my supper to look forward too!!
Yay for DH doing the housework and mmm to pizza and wine :) You make sure you take that rest sweetie.
So is it ok to pat or shh or feed etc if they are getting really upset? I try so hard not to bring them into bed but I just feel so tired leaning over those cots!!!
Pat/Shh is absolutely fine and is not apop at all - it's a perfectly reasonable sleep training method. I know some children come to rely on it a bit like a prop, but it's an easy one to gradually withdraw from so don't worry about that. You are trying to break a feeding to sleep association (I think - apologies if I've misrememberd) so I would try and avoid feeding to settle them if you can, but like we've all said above, do what you have to do to get by. Once the teething passes you can focus on doing things the "right" way. More (((hugs))) for today.
Ps button bobs is your profile picture your daughter? Her hair is beautiful!!!
Thank you sweetie, yes that is her hair. It is lovely, but a nightmare to brush. When she can do it herself it will be wonderful ;) xx
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Just to say that I followed buttonbobs advice, if you look at my thread you can see that little twin had full blown tantrums in bed. But I shush patted and held back when she got frustrated with me. Most of the time I didn't pat as they got really irritated by it. They preferred me laying my hand on their back and the other underneath on the chest (they slept on their tummies). I think they felt like they were being held even though they were in their cots.
I shushed until they were quiet and about to fall asleep as the shushing stopped them from actually falling asleep. They quite like drifting into a quiet sleep.
It took a two weeks for the 3 hours to become 2 and another month for it to lessen. But all through this time they were getting used to being in their cots and not being fed or held.
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Brilliant! Plan for tonight is then....
1. They only had 30 mins at 9 as they just woke up. Will put down at 1 and then aim for asleep 4 h after waking. Hopefully at 7!!
2. Self settle at beginning of night. Dummy in hand not mouth! Me not in room (they can do this now, minimum whinging, lots of dummies in cots though, that was a great idea!!
3. No feeding before midnight. Meds at first feed for both of them.
4. Shh pat if needed. Hold my nerve. Post extensively on here. No babies in bed!
5. Back to bed as soon as husband home.
Both have dummies Laura but Z is really a thumb sucker. PUPD enrages them!! They settle with shhh pat but it became a prop v quickly....but I guess to tide us over the teeth it is better than coming into bed. I don't actually shhh, just say shush, shush, relax, it's sleepy time as actual shhing enraged them too!! I do leave alone if whinging but C last night did a real, frantic, I need mummy cry....which did wake Z. Usually they don't really. c does the same as H with her dummy - I think from the sound of it they are quite similar sleepers!
Nippo - I'll try that, think they'd like it!
One more thought. I am trying to drop some BF as am going back to work in 3 weeks. Today for the first time they have drunk some formula out of sippy cups. The only one they will tolerate is HIPP and I noticed they have a goodnight milk. Do they work?? I am thinking I could give them a formula dreamfeed at midnight or something......when I say I I obviously mean my husband when he's home!! It's never really been an option before because they wouldn't take a bottle but also I wondered if that would be less nice than a BF so they might not bother waking for it??
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Oh, and BB I had that kind of hair as a kid. Remember the brushing tantrums v well indeed!!! When my mum went into hospital my dad took me to a neighbour to have it done as he couldn't face it!!
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Sounds like a good plan. I've never used good night milk but it is heavier than breast milk so might keep them sleeping for longer. Give it a go. It can't hurt!
Xx
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Yep sounds like a good plan.... Amazing to even have a plan given the night you've had so well done you!
How would you feel about doing meds when they first go down and then again if they were really unsettled (you know following the dosage guidelines etc)?
Re night feeds. You could switch to formula from a bottle or sippy but either way you are looking to wean it. With the formula you just water it down and with the bf you just reduce the time. At least with the formula your hubby could do it when he was home though!
Good luck I with the rest of the day!
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That would work. Could give first dose with supper then next dose at first feed. I gave some ibuprofen at bedtime yesterday and C settled much better. Tooth no 4 is bulging and no 3 is just cutting so poor little soul is a bit miserable. Currently her favourite teething toy is Z's head, which is a small problem!
Just to show off - they self settled at about 13:15. C has woken 3 times but first 2 tines re plugged herself and went back to sleep, 3rd time settled v quickly with dummy and a quick back stroke. Z has had a hand in her head at about an hour but both still sleeping....nearly 2 hours in!!
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Great napping girls (but not quite great enough so that you can actually rest yet :(, though that time will come).
Keeping everything crossed for a reasonable night for you tonight.
X
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Oh god. They have broken me.
They had 2 h yesterday afternoon, then a 4hA and asleep by 7.15. Went to sleep completely independently of me. Both full of meds
C: one cry and re plugged herself at 9:30 and 10:30. Woke up at 12:30 really crying hard. I re plugged her (she was fighting me) and rubbed her back and she went back to sleep. Fed and meds at 1:15. So far, so good. But....she woke at 4 and I haven't really been able to resettle her. I've been pretty much rubbing her back continuously since then....if I stop she wakes up, and even with continuous rubbing she woke up every 10 mins. Now it's 5:30 and they are both awake.
What should I do with these early wake ups? The trouble is if she wakes Z then I am lost as they will both stay awake. But if anything it's getting earlier. I can cope with 5, just......but 4???????? It's just getting earlier and earlier.
My blackout blinds haven't arrived, but at 4 it's still dark in there, and there are v thick curtains.
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I don't know what I am doing wrong. We've been trying to st since they were 5 months old (with no cry sleep solution, but still.) all my NCT friends feed or cuddle to sleep at bedtime and their babies sleep 13 hours and wake up with a smile on their faces, then play in their cots until it's convenient for their well-rested, well-groomed mothers to collect them.
I let them cry in their cots for 5 mins while I had a shower as I'm seeing a friend today I haven't seen for months. When I told her I was pregnant with twins she commiserated, I'm damned if I won't look absolutely immaculate when I see her. And the babies too. Of course if she saw the house it would be game over!
Please insert the swear words of your choice. I wasn't sure if they were allowed on here, but they are definitely in my heart.
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Right there with you today. Wish I could wave a wand for us both.
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Oh aren't babies a f@%£*#'% nightmare sometimes!!!
You are not doing anything wrong, believe me! I think the day I first came onto the forum was when I had only had 1 hours sleep while sleep training (and I was only doing 1 baby! My husband had the other). I had my first outing that day and I was seeing 2 old friends for the first time since having the babies and I had a shower - looked normal but burst into tears halfway through the coffee because I was so desperately tired and nothing had changed a month on! I was begging my friends for an answer to my question - when will it end! And they couldn't give me one.
But it will end, you are doing so brilliantly. It's gruelling doing it night and day. But you are getting somewhere, the crying is because they don't want change I think. You are giving them something different. Just keep the consistency and they will start to accept it...
One thing I did notice was that when they did sleep longer than an hour there was a definite change in them. They were chirpier. I realised they were sleep deprived too, they are just to little to understand it.
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Hugs honey, I agree you are not doing anything wrong. Consistency is the key so hold strong mama. Xxx
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Are your girls id?
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More hugs sweetheart. It def sounds like teething, not ap or apop or anything you're doing.
Keep going. You're getting consistent and reliable naps out of them now, which weren't there a week ago. Trust us, the nights will follow suit...
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They are non ID Laura....and like chalk and cheese!
Horrible naps today!!! Half an hour this morning and I have had a massive battle with c this afternoon - went down fine but then kept waking and crying even with her dummy. So I gave her some more calpol and she's finally gone back down, but I will try and keep her asleep by hook or by crook until she's had at least 90 minutes, and if she doesn't do 2 hours I'll bring bedtime forward half an hour. And tomorrow I'll give her calpol and ibuprofen at lunchtime! Teeth 3 and 4 are just cutting and I think I can see number 5 rearing up - that will be 5 teeth in 4 weeks!!
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Poor c :-*. No wonder she's having such a hard time. I find the Ashton and parsons teething powders good too. You can give them in addition to the pain killers.
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Poor thing. Mine are non id and have v different personalities too. I think yours are girl versions of my boys!
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And I messed it up again - fell asleep beside their cots after putting c's dummy in for the millionth time and woke up....at 3:45! So Z had 2.5 hours straight and C 2.5 hours with resettling. So I tried to keep them up until 7:30 so they would have enough a time....and had a massively OT, screaming bedtime.
When they wake up at, say, 4 I always do anything then to get them back to sleep - feed, rock, shhh pat. Is that right? Otherwise they will start their day then. But for about 2 months now I've spent the first hour of my day leaning over their cots rubbing their backs. Is it too nice so they are in the habit of waking for it?
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Could be that's a resettling prop. Eg Medi very rarely needs help to fall asleep but for months would wake every three hours at night for food. She got so used to being fed every time she woke at night that was the only way she'd settle. But at 4 am it's soooooo hard and tbh I'd be tempted to apop too. Even though I know it would eventually come back to haunt me :(
I hope your night is ok- is your dh back now to give you a break?
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I guess rubbing their backs is not that different to patting their backs really. At some point you have to start removing the prop gradually. Not sure if you are at that point yet...
I think I got through one wake up at a time. So we got them to sleep until 4am and fed them at 4 and they would sleep until 7.30
What we did was get them through the 1am wake by shush patting, then when we knew that got them to sleep, we then started to withdraw. So no patting, just hand on back, then taking hand away when we could see them dropping off then just needing it to calm them and eventually walking out.
We tackled 4am much later....it just gave us time to actually sleep. Because the 1am wake would sometimes run into the 4am wake...
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We had a few weeks of 4am too.... When they needed more sleep but seemed too hungry to settle themselves back to sleep, but we knew if we fed them it would screw up the easy for the day. I actually posted on here about it and was advised to give just a couple of ounces of formula. I had my reservations that they would settle after that but they did. I would give say 2-3 ounces and then the rest of that feed when we woke them (reluctantly) for the day at 6.
Worth a try?
Oh and for what it's worth I don't think they are waking up for the back rubbing... Sleep is much more desirable for a tired baby than a back rub. There is a reason for the wake up (usually hunger or pain or habit)... The back rub is just a means of helping them back to sleep.
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Wise words ladies. So, last night:
DH (I love him!) did til midnight, which was one handing C her dummy. She then woke at 12:30 and i gave her her dummy and did a bit of something (back run? Head stroke? Can't remember!) and she went back to sleep til 2:30. Then I fed her and she slept til 3, calpol/ibuprofen and she slept til 5 (brief wake at 4:30 thanks to z!!).
Z woke for feed at 2 then at 4 but settled with dummy and head stroke but took a while (and woke C so had the dreaded 2 twin chorus!!). Then woke at 5:15.
I think I have to pick my battles, like you are all telling me ;D. So, how is this for a plan:
Set naps at 9 and 1.
In bed asleep by 7.
I usually say I won't feed til 12, but from now on I won't feed til 2 as they have shown they can manage that long so earlier than that it is habit rather than hunger (is that right?). If they wake before 2 I will resettle a la nippo - shh pat weaning down to nothing
Any time after 5 we will try 10 mins of resettling but will then just call it a day and get up. That half an hour of them dozing lightly while I rub/pat isn't doing anyone any good I don't think.
If I can get them to sleep til 2 for a feed then go back down easily til 5 I will then either try and tackle EW by making morning nap later, or I will try and wean that 2am feed either by making it later and later or by making it shorter and shorter. This is probably about a year away but I like to think one day I will sleep a bit better.......
Am I heading in the right direction do you think?
And as ever, thank you all so much!
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This all sounds like a good plan sweetie. You're doing so well xxx
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That sounds like a very good plan, but personally I don't get Medi out of her cot until 6. Otherwise, it sounds good. Be strong. You'll get there. I was surprised how easily Medi dropped her 10/11/12 feed once I decided it needed to go!
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I know Sarah, and I've tried that....but I am really struggling with things at the moment and an hour of screaming at the beginning of the day is more than I can bear. I'll accept a 5am wake up forever rather than that.
They only did 20 mins this morning and couldn't resettle. c has just woken after 1:20 and screamed for 20 mins despite everything I could do. I gave her meds before her nap so I don't think it's pain. She is so tired, in the end she just sobbed herself into a snotty, heaving little ball and went back to sleep.
This is my fault. I read the f****king no cry sleep solution and it says for naps you should stay in the same room and resettle immediately. Same at night. So that's what I've always done and now they can't resettle, and they fight sleep all the time. I'm just so miserable and we are all so fed up of each other. I feel like screaming sometimes. And all anyone says is that I should let them CIO but even if I wanted to I couldn't because I'm on my own most of the time and I know I couldn't do it on my own. I've lost all confidence in myself and in my babies. I never know what to do when they wake at night - feed, pat, shh, give dummy, not give dummy, give a full feed, give a short feed. They are as confused as me and we are all so miserable. I really, really cannot carry on like this. Nothing is getting better. And I get so anxious about their naps and sleep in general it's all I think about.
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I'm sorry :(. That's just what I do, and if she screamed every day I wouldnt do it either. How long is your dh home? Is there anyone else who could help you for a couple of nights?
(Some days when things are really bad sleep wise, I just say sod it and go out for the day. I figure things aren't going to get any worse so I might as well just do something else).
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Hugs hun. I think your plan sounds good also it'll take the guess work out of things. If you stick to set nap times they (should) will even out over time or that's what I found with ds1 and he was a 45mins napper for ages.
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Definitely know what you mean about the anxiety about sleep. I seriously lost a whole stone in a week because of it. I dreaded nap times and bedtime. I wouldn't even let my husband have a shower in the evening just in case they woke up so I completely know how you feel. I don't know if anything in my old thread gives you any ideas.
Ultimately, all the advice is brilliant but you kinda have to feel your way through it a bit because one size doesn't fit all. My experiences might not work the same for you...
But I do think tackling one problem at a time was more manageable for me. Which was why we fed after 4am and the full belly made them sleep for 3 hours and I needed it. (I only fed after 4 if they had gone to sleep at their 1am wake up. If they hadn't, I carried on with shush pat until the did exhaust themselves and gave up).
We got past 4am by reducing milk until we gave them 90 mls and they just went to sleep.
One wake up at a time worked for me, and it was less anxiety for me because I only had to think about the 1am wake and get through that.
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Sarah, you were right - we all went to the park and had an icecream and made friends with each other again. Then we had a bath together which is always brilliant! I feel sometimes with all this that we are always battling, so it was really nice to just do nice things for a bit. I am going to be tough on them until 2 tonight - no feeding, no patting, just reassuring hand and sleepy words. Then after 2 it's anything goes and hopefully we will get a bit of sleep then.
I've written it down so I have to do it now!!
Once again, thank you. You wouldn't think it but before I had the girls I was v sensible and capable!!!!
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Your sensible self is still there... It shines through in your posts actually!
You seem to oscillate between being a woman with a plan and a woman who is feeling so desperate and lost and lonely and furious and frightened and confused etc. I think you are so tuned in when you say that is how your bubbas must be feeling too at times.
As mums we are the receptacles in which our babies project their most difficult feelings and it's up to us to survive and make sense of them, and in doing so our babies are able to do the same. You are really good at doing this as is evident in your postings... Anything they throw at you you survive and not only that but you are able to think of a way in which you can help them out next time.
And you're managing to do that on so little sleep. You're so desperately exhausted and look what you're achieving!
I have nothing sensible or practical to add though I'm afraid. My sense is that you have all the tools in the sleep tool box now it's just a matter of figuring out what is going to work for your girls when and in my honest opinion waiting for them to mature so they can make use of all you're teaching them.
Hang in there you are doing an amazing job!
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I do get very despairing when naps haven't gone well! Don't really have any sense of perspective on it.
Like Sarah said, I am a resettling prop, which I need to stop. Last night between them they were awake every hour. Twice though they went back to sleep as I walked into the room, which makes me think I should have left it a bit longer. I think tonight I will try not to feed til 2 again, but I have a couple of questions:
How long should I leave it before I go to them? Currently I leave 1 minute, is that too short? And then have minimal intervention.
C at the moment (I think because v OT, she woke up at 9, 10, 11 and 12 last night and hadn't had great naps) is escalating v quickly into a full melt down at night wakings. I had her the dummy and she bats it away but if I hold her flailing arms and put it in her mouth she settles almost instantly. I will get more dummies today so she can find them quicker, but next time that happens shall I just keep handing it to her until eventually she puts it in herself? It will involve a fairly protracted tantrum I think but I will suck that up if it's the right thing to do (or make DH do it!!)
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Waking every hr nearly always is discomfort from my experience.
Not sure what I'd do wrt the dummy. I'd prob hold the arms if that helps.
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Get more dummies... Good plan. I used to try and make the resettling as quick as possible to give me the best chance of going back to sleep.... So I would put dummy in hand and guide hand to mouth. So yes, I would calm the flailing hands too. When they escalate so quickly like that I'm not sure anything is gained by making them find their own dummy. Can do dummy replug practice during the day too.
Hugs for last night and for the times that you got up and went in but they had already resettled when you did! You will do that a lot while this transition is happening... No harm in it just annoying as hell at the time!
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It's like a dummy ball pit in there now!! I'll try dummy in hand and guide to mouth and see how that goes.
They are just chattering away to each other in there at the moment, it's hilarious! Z has just learned to clap so she is clapping and C is blowing raspberries. What they aren't doing is sleeping!! But it's cute. Twins is pretty ok sometimes!!
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It is a lovely age really ;)
I have a pretty high tolerance for fussy crying and it takes a lot for me to go in to her. So as soon as I think she's in trouble I go in, but if it's just fussing, I'll leave her a long time.
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I sometimes wonder if twins can be more demanding for mummy during the night as they get less attention and cuddles during the day than a singleton would. I know they know no difference but it's something that came to mind.
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Babies are so funny - C woke up, I handed her her dummy and she fell asleep cuddling it like a teddy! Her sleepytot has arrived today, perhaps that will be the thing for her.
Sarah - I leave them if they are fussing as in general I make things worse, but They both ramp up to full on screaming v quickly at night. They both have quite a bit of separation anxiety in the daytime, and I don't think all these teeth are helping.
Laura - I was talking to DH about that this morning! I think that in our case we were so overwhelmed by twins that we were the most extreme accidental parents ever - esp as I was on my own with them from v early and also wasn't all that well after they were born. But even now they are quite clingy - they often need a kiss and a cuddle even when they are playing, and they go beserk when I leave the room unless they see me go - I mean if I sneak out they raise hell when they realise I'm not there. I never have left them so I don't know why they are so worried, but maybe it's because they know they've got a rival for my affection. They get quite cross even if DH kisses me!
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Last night C was awake at 10:30 and 12:30 but settled easily, fed and meds at 2:15 then screamed for an hour. She's surrounded by dummies and I had my hand on her back but no patting or rubbing. She was then up again at 4 for 10 mins of screaming, then up for the day at 5:20. Z woke at 12:30, fed at 3 then up for the day at 5.
Did I do right letting c cry for so long in the night? I've just decided no more back rubs or patting. And how long before I stop having a hand on her back and what do u do next?
At bedtime they just lie there and chat, then sometimes I have to hand C her dummy but often I'm not even in the room.
Where do I go from here? Should I just go cold turkey on night feeds? And when is this likely to get better, I need a timescale!!!! Weeks or months or years?????
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Hugs. I wish I had some answers for you. Have you tried feeding the sleeping one when the other wakes or is that not possible with bf? We don't do it cos the sleeping one always vomits.
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You did brilliantly!! You did really well, and looking at the night as a whole it wasn't too bad (even though it doesn't feel that way). One hour isn't bad really, mine took 3 when I started but I realised once I had started shush patting I couldn't stop until they had gone to sleep otherwise they would learn to cry for as long as it takes.
It's really hard to say how long it will take as each baby is an individual and learns at different speeds and have different needs etc.
I remember really pumping my friends for an answer to when it would change. And they couldn't tell me. But I don't think you are far away. I went cold turkey with feeds until 4am but you could cut a feed at a time if that is too hard or you are unsure. Mine were feeding much better in the day when we cut night feeds and it really helped their moods too.
I remember our BT was always lethargic, she would just lie on the floor and not really move. Once she stayed sleeping she was a totally different baby, she was playing in the bath and laughing etc...
You will get there you might be month away - for ours to sleep completely through it took around 2 months. But we were happy with 2 wake ups as that was an improvement on 10 wake ups before 10pm!!
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Forgot to add, once they start to settle quickly with hand on back then start removing the hand before they fall right into sleep so they do the last bit themselves. You can still say soothing words so they know you are there if that helps
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Just a thought. Can you play lots of peep-o with them? It's supposed to help with them getting used to you disappearing and reminding them you will always come back. You can start with the simple hiding behind your hands and slowly move to leavingn the room and coming back in over and over. I think it really helps with SA.
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All good ideas, I will!
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It sounds like you're timing bed time perfectly as they're lying there for a little bit and then letting you know when they're ready to sleep and need a little help then off they go to sleep. Well done you :)
Re night wakings. Pretty hellish between 2 and 5am... And then to start the day... Uggghhhh! But I agree that you did brilliantly. Similarly to what I just said on Laura's thread, technically they will deep sleep until midnight, then light sleep until 4/5am then they should be able to deep sleep from 4/5am until you wake them up for the day. I'm wondering with you about going cold turkey on the 2am feeding with maybe a small feed at 4-5 am when they wake to push the start of the day later for you??
Not sure what you or others think about that and I'm in two minds because part of me thinks that you're getting there slowly anyway, but the other part of me wants to help you get there quicker iykwim (I'm sensing the urgency in your need for sleep and predictability at night)?
Sending good nap vibes for the day!
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Thank you all. We had a bit of a funny day today as we had to go and visit family. So 2 car naps but reasonably long and reasonable times. C is knackered though, so I have put them down early tonight and will just deal with the fallout. Can't wait for a little rest from them! And she's crying a lot going to sleep so I think it's the right thing. She prob only had about 8 hours last night, so it's hard for her to catch up.
Am going to try to make that feed later and later UB, think that's a good idea. So will try 2:30 tonight. Then if we manage that 2:45 tomorrow, etcetera, and see if we can get them back into deep sleep. It sounds lovely!
C has just screamed herself to sleep. I think sometimes that she just passes out from exhaustion rather than really learning how to go to sleep on her own. I think tomorrow I am going to put them down for their morning nap early just so they really know they are going to sleep on their own in their cots, as I feel like that's part of the problem. And no back rubbing, just firm hand and sleepy words. Deep breaths all round as I am on my own now til Wednesday lunchtime.....
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You can do it.
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Wine, chocolate, coffee!! And BW forum of course!! ;D
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Would a firm hand chest help too, you're kind of holding them in place then and sometimes it's calming for them....?
Mind you, you've started on a strong path so maybe just keep going.
Xx
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On your own until Wednesday.... You are Wonder Woman! It's official!
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OMG OMG OMG!!!!!
Was in bed by 8, reading and chillaxing. Dropped off about 9 I think
Z woke at 12:30 - hand on back, settled quickly
C woke at 2:30 - feed and meds, settled quickly. Just as I was settling her Z woke up so fed her and straight back down.
C then woke at 4:30 - hand on back, settled quickly.
Both awake at 5. Chatting and happy so I left them to it and they just played in their cots til 5:30!!!
So I've had about 7 hours sleep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Feel amazing!! Babies (esp C) look better than they have for ages!!! How do I make this happen again?!?! I didn't really do anything differently. Was going to try a slightly earlier nap today at 8:30 so they don't go to sleep so quickly and get the hang of the ST a bit better. Any ideas??
Off to do a little dance around the kitchen and make pancakes for breakfast!!
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Yippee!!! They were learning what to do the whole time - they just didn't tell you! BUT you will have good and bad nights it takes a bit of time for them to consistently go down in my opinion.
Well done you, HUGE pat on the back for doing it all on your own. Amazing lady!
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Well done!
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Wow....put them down at 8:30 and they played for a bit then went to sleep on their own. I heard c wake up after half an hour, chat to herself for a bit and go back to sleep! I woke them after 50 minutes and although with one thing and another they had nearly 4 hours A before this nap they did the same, and I heard c wake up and go back to sleep after 20 minutes. She didn't even cry - just said "dadada" for a but, blew some bubbles and went back to sleep. And no dummy!!! And they've been brilliant today - playing by themselves, smiling at people who looked in the pram (usually that makes them go mental!!), C has been pulling herself up on the furniture....just a great day (so far!). I even left them in the room on their own for 5 mins earlier and they didn't cry!!
I know it could all go wrong at any moment....but for now, thank you all so much!!!!
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Spoke too soon, only 1:15 this afternoon, but they are cheery enough and we will go for a half 6 bedtime.
Keep your fingers crossed for me!!
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Yep great idea... Early bed time. That's like the payoff if the second nap goes awry :)
Keep smiling thinking about how refreshed you felt this morning (it's amazing the first item that happens isn't it!) and then the first nap... To hear them chatting and then drift themselves off to sleep is official ya proud mummy moment.
Keeping fingers crossed for your night tonight. Fwiw they might not give sleepy cues at 6.30 but put them down anyway as they can always chat themselves to sleep again and I think you'll be surprised how quickly they actually go off.
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Woo hoo!!! Progress is progress, even if it is a bit two steps forward and one back. They can do it and you have done it, keep strong mama :)
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Well, last night bedtime was messy - they have been going to sleep completely on their own but I had to sit beside the cot and shhhhh last night as they just weren't settling. Then C woke up at 10 and at 2 but resettled easily. Z woke at 3 for a feed then C at 4! The longest she has ever gone without a feed! The trouble was that I gave her meds then at 4 but it was a bit late....she woke up at 4:30 and screamed, so I had to rub her back but she then slept til Z woke her at about 5:15. They are in bed chattering to each other going for another early nap which I shall cap at 45 mins.
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You are getting there slowly. It looks like resettling is getting easier even though the wakeups are still happening. Soon they won't bother waking for some xx
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Things are definitely better than when I started this thread! We are down to one feed, there are longer chunks of sleep and it's all a bit less traumatic. I am really unendingly grateful to you all!!
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You definitely seem to be able to make sense of and deal with the nights wakings in a thought through way now, rather than it being a chaotic guessing game. Just having that can make it easier to go back to sleep after a brief resettle, so you feel a whole lot better in the morning.
So pleased things are shifting in the way you want them to :)
How did this mornings nap go??
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Bad. C chatted for 15 mins then screamed - ended up shhing her to sleep again. They woke up after 30 mins and wouldn't resettle. Put them for their pm nap early, same again, and so far C has needed resettling at 20 mins and 40 mins!!! I am desperate for a good nap though and I think her teeth are hurting - another one is just cutting and she won't chew on that side of her mouth - so I have rubbed her back to sleep both times and will try and get at least 90 mins from her. A but frustrating, but keep reminding myself how far we have come in a relatively short time. DH is home too so I've got back up!!
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I had the same problem with mine. It got better slowly. It's the consistency that helps them to forget the old ways and learn the new. You are doing great. Keep at it and some time soon you will be sitting down with a glass of wine at 7pm advising some other Mum in need!
Xx
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You may find like my too they need to be really tired to sleep through those transitions esp if your noticing the short naps after putting them down early.
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Help me......c has totally forgotten how to self settle. She has screamed herself to sleep for 3 night and pretty much 3 naps. Really don't want to get back to all that patting, pupd enrages her. At the moment I am standing by the door shhhhing her but she has been screaming for half an hour. I feel like she is just CIO. What do I do???? I want to be consistent so don't want to go back but she is so upset.
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Ok, she went ballistic so i put my hand on her back just til she settled then took it away. She started screaming again but less so I sat by the cot and shhed and she went to sleep. It took 40 mins of screaming. Have I done ok? Should I do the same in the night when she wakes up? She napped today 8;40-9:10 and 1:10 to 3:30 (with a lot of back rubbing but I was desperate for a good nap). Then put in bed at 6:45 happy and relaxed but went crazy when I left the room. Not OT, (well, she was by the end!). I thought that for consistency I should stay outside but then that's just CIO.....
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I don't think she's having enough A time. After a nap that long my boys would go at least 4hrs I would think. DS1 used to go crazy if UT and it took me ages to work out that that's what it was.
(((((hugs))))) though and I think you did great. You were there for her and she knew. I would def eek out the A time for the naps and see if that solves the problem. Perhaps you could put Z down 15mins before if necessary?
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I think you are right that she would go down easier if tireder....but I just have this feeling that part of her trouble is that she can only put herself to sleep if she is absolutely knackered. I think she's tired pretty much all the time which is why she will always sleep in the car or pushchair even if she's only just got up. And I think that when she is that tired she just passes out rather than knows she is going to sleep, and unless I fix this she will always wake really early and nap badly as she's not really learning.
Does this make any sense? What do I do about it?
DH has been called in to work and won't be home at night til Sunday now as he is working tom night as well then at his brother's stag party friday and sat. With the ST should I just stay in the room so they can see and hear me and then move outside again? I don't really know what's gone wrong!!!!
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I wish you were closer for real life hugs.....feel so lonely!!
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I reckon she sleeps in car/pushchair like my boys do. It's where they slept a lot when little and I think it has a sleep association. If she is going down awake (even if tired) and putting herself to sleep then I think it's fine. I like to think of them as little adults in regards to sleep. Like if we have an early night it doesn't mean we'll wake early. If we need a longer nap cos we're tired doesn't mean we will have to go to bed later yk? My first was the world's worst sleeper. I think I mentioned he now has sleeping medication prescribed. He is the most sleep trained child ever! Anyway I digress. What I was saying was if you're not tired enough and you go to bed too early (I know it's hard to imagine that ever being the case atm!) what happens? You toss and turn and get frustrated and I think that's what happens with babies. Just because you're shattered and fall asleep quickly doesn't mean other days you won't fall asleep after 10mins of chilling. With ds1 I panicked so much about ot he was always going down too soon. With these two I know they don't sleep well unless really tired. They then do a better nap and are happier all round for it. I would also say (even more so with two) that's nights are really not that dependent on day sleep. It's nice to think there's a magic formula and believe me I want to find it too but there isn't. I think add a time and not worry if she's going to sleep within seconds.
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Oh and lets face it. With twins. Esp non id. You're tryin to get two separate babies onto one sleep pattern. Surely that's fighting against the odds to begin with. ....
I should really practise what I preach given all my help me with these children posts!
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Xx hugs xxx.
I've always erred on the side of helping less with sleep and would only stay in the room if she was very upset. I always go in then, I've never tried to comfort from outside the room. But that's just me.
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Also agree with Laura - I find Medi sleeps better if a bit ot.
Lol Laura wrt your last post. I can't imagine trying to synchronise twins, I know it's meant to be easier but I'm sure it doesn't seem that way!
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I see what you mean Laura.....wise words indeed. And Sarah, I am glad to hear you say that. I don't mind them crying if I am there, but to think of her crying and not knowing if I'd come....it's heart breaking. And I hope she did know....
I've been in bed for an hour fretting about them. I love them so much. With twins I always feel like they are having to compromise on everything and I always feel so guilty. They are such lovely kids, and I'm so lucky to have them. Even if they don't sleep for 5 years that's not all that long!!
I'll try a bit more A tomorrow!!
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It's obvious how much you love them, and they'll know it. I think they're lucky to be twins -of course they don't get all your attention like a single - but what a gift they have in each other. Think of how much fun they're going to have together!
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Why don't you join the birth club? Nice bunch of moms hanging out and chit chatting about all sorts.
7-9 months, part 35
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Oh sweetheart I'm sorry you've had a crappy day with naps and felt so alone with it at bedtime.
I'm afraid I was MIA from the boards today because it was my girls birthday today! We all survived the first year... I think!!
I think you got really excited and felt (rightly so) empowered by the recent progress you and your girls have made, especially with going down slightly under tired and chatting themselves to sleep.
And I agree with you and other posters that bed before bed they really need four hours awake time.
So many hugs for today....
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Sounds like you did brilliantly, babies will go back to what they know. We had sooooo many nights where I felt like I was starting at the beginning. I would have gone in, hand on back and kept on until they went to sleep. Might be a bit too soon for walking out - but good to keep trying. One day they will let you. I basically spent hours removing my hand and putting it back until they got used to the feeling of my hand not being there which does take a little while.... They are nearly there. You know than can do it but they want the security of the familiar I think.
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How was last night?
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Well....it wasn't too bad. Quick resettle for c at 12:30 then both fed at 2:45. But they were then awake til3:30 and up for the day at 5. So more A time today I think! And thanks to you all for the help and advice.
Sarah - I'd love to be in that birth club but the girls are 9.5 months now....time flies!! And C has just started cruising this morning so I will be feeling your pain with pulling up in the cot soon I think!
UB happy birthday to the girls!!
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Glad it wasn't too bad. :)
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You can join for two weeks and then there's a 10-12 month one as well!
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Sounds good Sarah!
You guys were right about the A time - both down without a peep for both naps today. C still needing a lot of resettling but at least no massive screaming fits!!
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Great to hear this! Praying for another 7 hour (at least) block of sleep for ya tonight!
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The only thing with more A time is trying to fit it in the day! They napped 9:15-10 this morning, then put them down at 1:30 and they fell asleep at 1:45. So to get a long nap now even if I cap at 1.5 h it will be 3:15, so bedtime 7:15. And they go absolutely mental after 7 even if they have been asleep all day. And bearing in mind they have been up since 5.....what would work out here?
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This is the prob I have. Which is why I'm keen to get some later Wu so we can try one nap
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Tbh I wake Medi at whatever time I think will get her into bed by 7. So I'd have woken them at 3 or a few minutes after.
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Well, I will wake them now, we will do everything as normal for half 7 bedtime but maybe read some books or something before I put them down. Gah, this is so tricksy!!
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Yes it really is tricky to fit everything into the day. I'm with the Sarah on this... Whole day structured around getting bed time between 6.30 and 7.00pm! Hence my very early under tired morning nap and then pm nap at 12.30... I always wake them at 2.30pm... However long they've had for that nap!!
It won't be long and those early wake ups will disappear for you so it will feel a lot less like a pressure cooker around bed time as they won't be overtired and unable to feed well or settle well.
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I really hope so....but apparently I woke up at 5 til I started school......
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Really!!!?? Oh dear lol!
Let us know how your night has gone..
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Oh god....they got up for the day at 4:30.......
Otherwise quite a good night - went to bed at 7:30 (4h A) and self settled with me outside the room. Took about 2 seconds. Then I heard a few grumbles before I went to bed (at 9!) but nothing I needed to go in for. C woke at 12:30 but settled v quickly with dummy and hand on her back (so I am going to start weaning that), both up at half 2 for a feed and settled quickly. Crying at 4:30 - I tried to resettle but they were chatting and playing so I just left then to it and went back to sleep til 5:30. When they started crying then I went in, turned the lights on, gave them some toys in their cots and went to have a lovely long shower. So they didn't get out of bed til 5:45. But they only had 9h sleep last night.....
I'm going to get them to bed by 6:30 by hook or by crook today!!
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The monkeys. I'm sure we've talked about this,but is it dark in their room? I suppose they're at an age now where they see each other and want to play.
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I've got a blackout blind so it's pretty dark. They hear each other though and chat and blow raspberries. For hours. All they can say is dadada so it's pretty repetitive, but from the giggles you'd think it was sparkling repartee!!
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I found mine woke between 4 and 5 for about 3 months. Even now we have the odd 5am wake. I was told to treat as a night waking, give them a small amount of milk and straight back down. It did take a while but eventually they did just go back to sleep until 7.30
They only started to sleep right through until 6.30 around a month and a half ago.
Would that work?
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Hugs for the early start. I like nippos idea. I had horrendous night so much so I think I've just decided to feed rather than resettle cos I was up from 11pm till 3am!
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I think I will have to do something like that nippo....it's just that they will scream for more than an hour even with shhh pat and it really upsets me - in the night I can deal with it because I know they need their sleep but the few times I've tried it they will scream for at least an hour, sleep 20 mins and we all start the day miserable. I had decided to pick my battles and deal with night wakings and naps first and hoped the EMW would either sort itself out or be easy to fix with a change in schedule or something. Or 5am I can just about deal with anyway. But 4:30 is extreme! I've tried feeding them again but they aren't v interested and it doesn't make them sleep anyway...
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If they aren't screaming and happily playing, I'd just leave them to it - mine would wake crying so I did give them milk as, like you and Laura, I was too shattered having been up most of the night...it did make them drowsy and they would sleep easier.
If that doesn't work, I'm not sure if other people have other ways of dealing with it....
Xxxc
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I was told to treat as a night waking, give them a small amount of milk and straight back down.
Nippo - quick question....I have a thread going here about EW (10 month old - EW at 5am returned....at a loss now! ) and I was wondering if your LOs were BF or FF...and did you change nappy after feed - I think a feed and a nappy change would end any chance of my DD going back to sleep but I'm just wondering how it worked for you...all ideas considered for a post-dawn wake-up!!
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Hug for that middle of the night start to the day.
I wonder if they'd resettle if that 2.30 feed was at the 4.30 wake up instead?
Thoughts on resettling with dummy at 2.30 and feeding later??
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Hi Bababoo,
Mine were mixed fed at the beginning but by 3 months I found it really hard with 2 and no sleep so I switched to bottle as I didn't make enough milk.
I didn't change nappy until morning (unless totally soiled or a number 2) and I never took them out of the room. I got their milk, fed them in the dark, no speaking or interaction at all. And when the milk was done they went straight back into bed with least amount of settling. So I didn't even burp them. hand on back until quiet and left. Obviously the start was hand on back until they were asleep.
Xxx
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Agree with uglybethy about moving 2.30 feed to 4.30 - hopefully it should sort the early wake as milk is a bit of a sedative for babies!
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Thanks Nippo...my DD is FF aswell...was curious I suppose that if you were BF-ing that maybe it was the snuggle with you rather than the feed that made the difference...I think I might give it a try when she does one of her 4.30 rise and shines rather than just accepting that we are up for the day!
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We can try it....but it did happen once of it's own accord and the day still started then. The trouble I have is that if I'm there they want to play, and if I'm not they scream. Have tried basically pinning them to the mattress but they fight back and are phenomenally strong!! And they can keep up the screaming for hours, they are so used to getting up at that time! They went for their nap at 9 as usual....4.5h A....
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I found with mine that I just had to ride out the crying, it was hours but it became less once they realised I was going to see it through until the end!
If you can muster up the will to get them to sleep (even if only for 10 mins) you're half way there.
Yes it is gruelling, it really is, and I don't think that any one will really understand how hard sleep training twins actually is. But you have got so far, your ¾ of the way there already. So close...I sense your just around the corner from your goal xx
Bababoo - I committed the cardinal sin of taking both babies and letting them sleep on my chest from around 1am onwards - I was just too exhausted! So they were used to snuggling with me. But I don't regret it - I loved snuggles - they just got too heavy! ;)
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We've got guests this weekend while DH is away so I will start on Monday. Nippo, how exactly would I do it? Can hold feed til 4:30 easy enough (well, won't be easy but I know how!) but if they are awake afterwards and playing just leave them to it til they cry then shh pat? And when do I stop and get them up for the day? Do they have to go to sleep or do I get them up at 6 anyway? Or should I be aiming later?
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Yes I would leave them to it if playing and no feeding unless they cry at 4.30am.
Once fed in the dark, straight down and no chatting, holding etc. Walk out. If they chatter away, go to bed! If they start to cry shush pat (or hand on back) until they sleep. I used to keep on until they slept, even if it goes past wake up time - as you are teaching them to go to sleep - they need to actually get to the point of sleep. Even if they only go down for 20 mins.
I have seen other advice - if you are still shush patting at wake up time then walk out for a few minutes and go back in as if it's morning with your wonderful morning smile and a chirpy 'morning babies!' And start your day....
I just couldn't do that as I was half dead. I needed them to understand that they had to sleep so that the next one would be a bit shorter (and sometimes it was!)
As I am not a baby whisperer expert and only really an expert on my own twins it might be helpful for one of the proper advicey type people to jump in! I wouldn't want to lead you in the wrong direction!
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Hey Nippo, I think you're giving great advice and actually we're all only experts in our own child(ren) so you're not alone :D
I would definitely leave them to it unless you get an "I need you type of cry". It can be frustrating lying awake listening to happy playing in the middle of the night, and it can be caused by developmental change, teething or UT. But whatever the cause (unless you think pain is at play) it's best to leave them be and they'll resettle if they can, and will have learnt to do so on their own. Or they won't and may cry for you and you can respond.
I think either of the suggestions in the post above would be fine - whatever works for you, just be consistent with it.
Have a nice weekend with your guests xx
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Sounds good. And can I aim for a 6:00 wake up then? It's been so long since we had anything sensible I don't even really know what we are aiming for!! How would this be:
Wake up at 6
Nap 9-10 (or 9:30 maybe as I think they will be UT)
Nap 1:30-3
Bed 7
Those naps are pretty much what we had today and it was overall a good day....they had to be woken from all naps though and were v cross about it! Also we had to go into town twice (grrrr!) and they had little catnaps in the pushchair both times after 1.5h A. Didn't affect naps or bedtime so I ignored it and hopefully it means they are tired enough for a good night. Very easy going to sleep for both naps and bedtime - put down, kiss, mobile on and out.
DH is working days all next week so I will have some help at least! I'll ask him what he thinks about what we should do if they are still awake at wake up time. Does it work faster if we persevere until they are asleep? Also I am anticipating a fair amount of screaming if I don't feed at 2:30 so maybe they will be tireder and actually sleep then??
It feels like such a mammoth thing to do. How long will it take? We are going on holiday the last week of May then I start back at work in the first of June. And C's mouth is a hotbed of teeth and Z had a temperature today. Should I wait until June to start or will that be too much with then going to childminder as well?
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I hear you. You've got to weigh up what you've all achieved so far and whether another period of pushing and tweaking is what you want or need right now.
It is possible for 9.5 month olds to go 12 hours without needing to feed and my sense is that the final hurdle in terms of them learning and having the maturity to sleep right through (well except in lighter periods of sleep, but to self settle when those occur) lies somewhere in that night feed. Do you have a sense of how much they are taking at the 2am ish mark (not in terms of ounces As I know you breast feed but i guess in terms of time)... Would you say its a substantial feed? Can you in any way move that time at the breast to somewhere during the day? The only reason I ask is because I wonder whether if you know they've had enough breast milk during the day you will feel more able to challenge those night wakings without offering a feed?
Once I felt confident that mine were feeding enough during day time hours I had three checks I did at a night wake... Pain (if I thought they were teething and had woken hourly I gave pain meds), thirst (would offer water from a bottle, in their crib, did not pick them up), position and pacifier (just double checked they were on their backs or sides with access to a paci). Mostly one of these three would result in resettle but if they didn't then I did pick up put down or shush pat (depending on the baby or situation) until they went back to sleep or it was a reasonable time to get up.
The day you have planned out looks great. I think now is a great time to see this through. I don't underestimate their ability to sleep 11-12 hours at night and once they've mastered this they will be able to take any forthcoming changes in their stride.
Oh and congrats on the naps from today... What an improvement :)
Keep going you can do it!
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We have been up all night, both burning up! 2 steps back...
They are trying though, it isn't their fault!! ;D
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Ah bless them.
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Oh no. Hope they feel better soon.
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Well, we had a rotten night of waking every hour or so.....but we didn't get up til 5:45! I had to basically keep my hand on C's back from 4:30, she never went into a deep sleep, but maybe if they get in the habit of sleeping til 6 I can then wean that down?
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Poor little things, I hope they feel better soon.
They probably needed to know you were there because they felt pants. Well done on getting to 5.45 even though you didn't rest.
You are doing brilliantly. You can wean the hand on back, they will trust that you are there eventually.
Xx
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Actually I fell asleep with my hand through the cot bars so it was quite nice! And I think my shhhhing morphed into snoring!!!
Poor little things. It's rough being a baby, feels like they are ill more than they are well! But TBH I think I am going to plough on with gentle ST anyway. They fed at 3 and had a massive feed but normally it's not so much and I think maybe they were thirsty because of their temperatures. Might try a bottle of water tonight for the early wake ups if hard to settle. They were really thirsty in the day yesterday as well so that would make sense. I'll say no feeds til after 3 tonight but will try water. Oh, and calpol - wish I'd bought shares in it, we get through tonnes!!
Thanks again everyone!!
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You do whatever time feels right for you. But good they took a full feed, it could just be they took a full feed because they were actually hungry rather than using it for comfort? Did it make them drowsy at all? It seemed to make mine go to milky heaven....
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You struck a really nice balance with the sleep training and just being there for them because they were feeling so rough last night. Well done you!
I have nothing else to add or offer on top of what you summized yourself and I think your plan for tonight looks great.
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I agree. If you were using a more speedy version of ST I'd say leave it until they're well, but I think your approach was great last night. More ((hugs)) and more strength to keep going.
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More hugs, you're doing great.
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Thanks everyone! We will see what the night brings......
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Ok, well, it was rotten. They slept til 11, then C was up 11-1 every 20 mins or so, then z 1-2:30. Fed at 2:30 and calpoled both of them then they slept fitfully until 5:30. With my hands on their backs. And I had to revert to some back rubbing but they are poorly so I hope that's ok. I put them down for a nap at 9 and C woke after half an hour (like she has for every nap for ages now) but was really hard to resettle - had to rub her back a tiny bit again. As they are struggling, should I let them sleep it out for this nap? They prob won't do that long any way but they have had 2 dreadful nights in a row now. And our visitors are still here and they are a bit poorly so I'm not looking for massive progress with ST, just not to go too far backwards..../
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So many hugs for all of you! Yes, good idea, put them down earlier and let them sleeeeeep. 2.5-3hrs should do wonders for them right now I think. Calpol too??
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I've been letting my two sleep for as long as they want for the nap cos they've been poorly. Also I'd put money on the 30mins waking being ut. It certainly is here.
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They did 1h20, then 1h30 this afternoon. Didn't go down til 2 but I let them sleep late and have just put them down again now. It's not loads of A time but they are in such a state!
Laura - C always wakes after 30 mins. You could set your watch by it. We were doing really well at getting through it but it's back now. If she goes back down she will sleep up to 2 hours more, sometimes needing another resettle and sometimes not. I think maybe it's jut a habit!! I am now trying to always resettle her at 30 mins even if I wake her at 45 to see if that helps.
I'll wing it again tonight, then as soon as they are well start again in earnest. The only thing is I am not going to feed before 2:30am, we worked really hard to get there and I don't want to go backwards!!
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J would always wake at 40mins until recently when I got them to start self settling. You could try waking her briefly say at the 20min mark to see if you can shift her. Do it for a few naps
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How did it go? X
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Awful night again, C started waking up at 9......would resettle with a hand on her back then wake again after 20 mins. Like that all night and up screaming at 5.... :o
So.....it became v clear to me early on in the night that she was waking when my hand wasn't there.....so I just held the edge of her sleeping bag so she couldn't roll (she thrashes around and hits her head on the bars!!) and let her hold my hand. And shhed until I saw stars. So she knew I was there but I wasn't doing anything to make her sleep. And I brought my duvet in and slept on the floor. At 5 DH took over and they eventually stopped screaming with a hand on their backs but they didn't go back to sleep. So at 6 we turned on the lights and did an exaggerated good morning!! I put them down at 8:50 and let them sleep til 10, then they did 1:30-3 - no resettling for the second nap which was good! And tbey have just gone to sleep now. V easy at each sleep time.
The teeth are still coming thick and fast and they are a but off their food. Temperatures ok today though. So as long as I feel strong I will try and get to 3 without a feed. Wondered if I should have fed at 5 this morning - they were starving for breakfast at 6. But then that feels backwards as I'm kind of adding in a night feed! It's going to take a week at least to get the 2:30 feed to 5am, should I feed at 5 as well til then????
Sleepy vibes to all of your babies!!!!
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Just a thought...read somewhere that for some people making a recording of your voice doing the sshh-ing works...baby hears your voice, but you're fast asleep in the next room. Admit I've never done it...and it won't solve the issue of the bopping about in the cot (my DD is pretty active when awake aswell - and is now standing and attempting to walk in the cot, even in her sleeping bag, awkward and all as it looks!) - but it might get you some shred of sleep!
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Apparently you can also buy a warm weighted hand which you can place on their backs so they have the comfort of thinking you are there. You could still be in the room with your duvet but at least you'd be more comfortable...
I haven't seen it myself but I'm sure a quick search might help.
I would try and keep the feed to 6 if you can. They are on solids and taking their daytime milk right? I would think one night feed is enough....
Better to establish a 6am wake up so when they do sleep through it will be until 6 rather than 5.
If they weren't doing the 2.30 wake up I probably would have fed at 5...
You're still doing brilliantly I think. Remember they are teething and it's not a tooth at a time with yours so they are bound to be feeling uncomfortable to say the least. It's tough on you I know, but at some point soon those little teeth will pop through and hopefully your night will get a bit easier...
Xc
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I will investigate during my long periods awake tonight!!
They currently don't have a feed when they first get up - their morning feed is at 8ish. So hats why I thought a 5am feed would be ok as would still be hungry for breakfast at 6:30 (the only time they see daddy!). So I'm wondering if I should add a 5 am feed (so doing 2am and 5am) then drop the 2am feed, or gradually make the 2am feed later until it becomes a 5am feed, and eventually gets dropped altogether.
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I think you should do what feels right for your babies because you know them better than anyone else.
For me, I knew that a 3 hour gap was definitely OK given they were eventually doing a long sleep from 7 until 2am so they would have been able to sustain 2 until 6 during the night.
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I think you're saying that you need to keep a night feed whilst they are feeling so poorly but that ultimately you want it gone, right? It is usual for the 2am feed to go first. But before you get rid of that you need to provide them with the same time at the breast during the day before hand (or same ounces of bottle).
I wonder if that would be possible by adding a breast feed when you start the day ... 6am eventually but for the moment while they seem to be waking up at 5.00 and are unable to settle back just feed them then instead?? Over time that will get later and later. And 2am feed will be gone.
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This was the fourth night of C waking every hour or so. To resettle I re plugged, hand on back, hand on chest, held sleeping bag, held hand. And shhhed. Is it the teeth? I don't know what she wants, I fed at 3 and she wasn't particularly starving and it didn't make her sleep any better. And they have been up since 5 (although in cots til 6). And I don't know what else I can do? Should I stop touching her altogether, just hold her sleeping bag? There is a tooth still just breaking through but she is dosed up to her eyeballs and it's making no difference. And, honestly, I'm not sure how much more I can take....how do we get through this?!
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You're doing so well under the circumstances, I really do applaud you for holding fast. They don't normally wake hourly right? You do have longer spells usually which makes me think that it is probably a combination of teething and just not feeling 100%...they were ill and although they might not have a fever, it does still take some time for them to feel totally better...and they are probably overtired from the frequent wake ups...
Really sorry that it is just so hard, I wish I could come over and help you xxxxx
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So many hugs. I can understand why you're wracking your brain on this one. Not helped at all by the utter exhaustion.
I too think it's a combination of the teeth and chronic overtired from the all the night wakings. Although I think it would be really useful to see your easy again if you can possibly muster up the energy to post it?? Be useful to see what days are looking like too ATM...
On a practical note is there any way that hubby can do a few nights for you (you might need to get some ear plugs to dull down the intensity of the cries)?
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I hadn't posted yet cos I was thinking about what to say to you.
However I would say that waking every hour is almost *always* discomfort and I would be inclined to get her ears checked out - esp if she's still running a temp. Also I personally wouldn't be worrying about any sort of st while they are poorly - meaning get them back to sleep as quick as possible in whatever is their most comfortable way. I would try and let the self settle at the beginning of the sleep but after that if they wake - comfort them. I know that feels counterproductive but constantly trying your hand / rubbing etc doesn't seem to be helping. I would do at this moment what it takes to get C to sleep a long stretch again. How did Z sleep? Even if you go backwards a bit if they sleep better for a few nights and get well it'll take much less time to get where you are as they've done it before - does that make sense?
I completely get your frustration (and lack of sleep) so so many ((((Hugs)))) I would give yourself a break do what you have to do just to get through for a while. My boys were completely prop tastic. They slept in carseats being rocked, in their buggies because they just wouldn't sleep past 30mins.
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Thank you all for the support! I let C have a monster morning nap because she was just so unpleasant and she looks much better for it! This is the EASY I have been aiming for...
Awake 5ish but in cots til 6. If playing, leave them to it. If screaming, shh and hand on back.
Breakfast 6:30
BF 8:00
Sleep 9-10
Bottle and raisins when they wake up
Lunch 12 ish
Bed 1:30-3
Bottle when they wake up
Supper 5
Bath 6
Bf and bed 7
One night BF - not before 3am
Things that are wrong - don't eat much lunch as full of milk. Then don't drink much milk as full of lunch. Not sure if this matters! Evening is really tight for time. Can't really make BT any earlier as I'm going back to work soon and won't be home in time!
My dream EASY:
Wake up at 6:00 and BF
Play in cots while I get ready
Breakfast 7
Sleep 9-10ish
In the rest of the day one 2h nap, 2 meals, 2 snacks, 2 bottles, a bath. And some going out!
I think you are all right about OT. Put them down this morning at 8:45 as couldn't stand it any more. C needed resettling 2x in the first hour and resettled herself twice too, but then slept til 11:15! And I've just put her down at 2 and she is asleep again I think.
I thought all the teeth were through but looking closely one is still just under the gum and it looks like some others are starting to make an appearance. And she's only had 24h with no temp. So she's got an excuse. But the thing is when she wakes at night I don't know what she wants - last night she didn't want a feed, didn't want picking up, didn't really seem to want cuddles or back rubs.....I think she wanted to be asleep! I didn't give the meds at 2am as I forgot and I'm not sure if that made any difference really.
The only other things I can think of:
They still have newborn dummies as I didn't realise there was a bigger size. Would the next size be better?
I play a mobile with a light show when I put them down. Could try that if she is struggling to settle at night?
I worry that the night waking will become a habit - C is the most habit forming baby alive! And I worry because she obviously needs something at night which I am not providing.....just not sure what it is!!
Z is not too bad at all - her first teeth are starting to show and she's a bit grouchy but last night she slept til 3 then straight back down til 5 after a quick feed. Having said this she slept 1.5h this morning and is still awake and rolling around in her cot now after an a time of 4hours.....
Once again, thank you all so much!!!
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They sound so much like my two! J never knows what he wants either! He's slowly getting into cuddles though. I tried my two on the bigger dummies but they don't much care for them at mo but buy a pack of 2 and see whether they take to them. What settles c the quickest? I completely get not wanting to form habits but as she's not right I would seriously resort to that...for now.
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Ok, here is the plan
Z refused her pm nap and woke up c after 20 mins, at 2:20. So I took them out in the pushchair and z had about an hour, ending at 4. C is beside herself so we are having early bedtime if 6:20 to try and get her to catch up on some sleep. Z will just have to cope!
Laura - back rubbing settles c but she now wakes up pretty much the second I stop. The reassuring hand is slower but she is more likely to stay asleep.
The plan for the night:
No feeds til 3:00 (they did it yesterday so I know they can)
Big girl dummies that glow in the dark :o
Settle C by hook or by crook and try and get her to sleep
Even more dummies in the cot!
When they wake at 5, feed and back down. No fun, no chat, no getting up!!!!
DH is doing long shifts and can't really help at the moment at night as he drives a lot for his job and it just gets dangerous! He is doing 5-7 so I sleep then, so it's not as awful as it could be!
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My DD is still on 0-6 month dummies as she completely refused the bigger ones..she'd pop it in, have a little suck, then throw it far away!
I was worried that it would affect her gum/mouth formation but as she now only has them for sleep I'm not too worried..they fall out once she is asleep and even if she replugs herself they are not in too long once she falls back asleep.
I asked about it on a thread here and no-one seemed to think it was a big deal.
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Hi Anna. I'd suggest you start a new thread and we can hop on it there just so we don't get confused with lilys. Or I can ask a mod to use your post above and do it for you?
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Yes hi Anna I'd love to help you out too if I can!
Start another thread and we will come join you!
We've got out own little multiples group going on here now :) and it's multiplying!!
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Thank you and well done for finding the time to write out your easy for us again.
Also really helpful to have your dream easy... Thanks.
I've got several thoughts, some of which you might find useful...
I know you are working towards making that 2am bf later and later but if they've fed well in the day they shouldn't be hungry for a feed then. I'm pretty sure it's a comfort thing for them? Given that you also would prefer to bf on waking I think that you should bf at the 5am wake up, put them straight back to sleep and do another top up bf on waking. Eventually when you work on pushing the 5am wake up later and later it will just be one bf at wake up.
Having said that I understand that while they are teething (or whatever the hell this waking every hour is for gggrrrrr!) you are doing both. But that does seem crazy as I write it down! Feeding at 3 and 5. So now I'm sticking to my first idea of no 2/3 am feed (shush pat, replug etc instead) and just offer feed at 5!
As a result of this shift the bf before first nap will be gone and instead you'll do bf on waking first thing then breakfast an hour later and nothing else before first nap.
I think you could try getting rid of the bottle after the first nap and just give a snack, lunch an hour later and a bf just before the second nap (not feeding to sleep obviously). Do you tandem feed them or one at a time? Just thinking things through logistically for you...
So easy going to look more like this for now...
5.00 bf back down
6/6.30 start the day with top up bf
8.00 breakfast
9-10.00 nap
10.00 snack
11.30 lunch
12.30 bottle
13.00-15.00 nap
16.30/17.00 dinner
17.30/18.00 bath
18.30 bf
19.00 bed
With regards to how you get there, well you just pick your changes and implement them. I was fascinated by the fact I could do this with my two, especially in terms of dropping a bottle during the day and introducing a snack. And I imagine they will nap more consistently well in the afternoon after a bf too.
Loving the big girls glow in the dark binkies btw!
I hope and pray that you are sleeping right now.
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Thabks UB, will read properly in the daytime. Just popping on to gloat - it's 2am here and apart from a quick hand on back for c and a bit of shhhhing for z.....nothing!! Doing a happy, sleepy little jig in bed!!!!!
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Whoo hoo! Brilliant news so that's 2 good nights in as many weeks. If you look at things as a whole I'd say there is improvement there albeit slow!
There will be steps back, as I said before, we had load s of happy nights only to find the next was a nightmare but they are learning!!!
Well done missus x
P.s I would drop the 2am feed too - either that or push the 5am to 6am
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Ok, this is day 1 of the new EASY. The nights are not great but we stayed in the cots until 6. Then BF. Breakfast at 7:00 (so we could have it with daddy!) and will aim for nap at 9. C has been awake since 4:30 I think (standing up and sitting down in the cot and laughing to herself!!) so we might not make it but we will try......
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Oh my goodness c! 4.30 am is not party time!!
Thinking of you all today
X
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Thank you.
I fell asleep during their second nap and didn't wake up til 3:30. So as a result they are still messing around and not asleep. And c can stand up in her cot and get stuck so I've put her down about a thousand times. And they've been really grumpy all day and people with singletons have been telling me "they don't know how I do it" which always makes me cross. And DH was supposed to be home at 6 but is stuck in traffic and won't be home for another hour.
Just not a great day. And there is so much washing and cleaning to do tonight and I will have to do it on my own..... :'(
What a first world set of problems! But v sorry for myself!
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We've been having a circus from j at bedtime for the last little while. I'm hoping it's 'just' teeth as both cutting them now.
Sorry you've had a bad day but well done for getting a nap in for yourself. Yk if they settle a bit late that's to be expected and maybe they'll get up a bit later (well I can dream for u!) it's just so hard to relax until their asleep isn't it. Sod the cleaning. Do the washing only.
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You have every right to feel sorry for yourself. Sleep training twins is so grueling it's indescribable. Torture.
Hugs and sleepy vibes for tonight ...
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Oh for those of you who haven't noticed this is Anna's new thread now.
7 month twins, night waking and early morning waking.
How was last night?
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It was bad. I don't really even remember the details. No DH til Sunday lunchtime. They are both really grizzly and I am so fed up with them already and it's only 9....
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Hugs sweetheart. Please nap for mummy today girls!
Please fall into a deep sleep during their naps LR ( but set alarm to wake up !!!)
Xxxx
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Ha yes! Alarm is set!! ;D
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Sorry hun. Wish I had some magic answers for you. How old are they now? I wonder if you should move them to one nap. Drastic I know but my boys sleep much better overall when really tired. So when they wake in the night they're more likely to turn over and go back to sleep.
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10 months. Today they napped 9-9:45, then 1:15-3:15 with 2 resettles. Put them to bed at 7:15.
Perhaps I am being too pessimistic. Z was a mess last night but is teething. C woke up a fair but...but most if that was due to Z and I didn't feed her til 5 as she slept 2-5. We will see what the night brings......!!!!
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Keeping everything crossed for you. Great napping today.. I know there were resettles but they got their three hours (just about)... A few more days of that and the overtired will start to subside.
And as for the teeth, they are b@st@rds, each and every one of them!
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You are doing well, if you can get out into the sun and get some fresh air, it might make the world seem a bit happier. You are doing really well, and I am sure one would probably be doing quite well if the other wasn't waking them up - we had that problem when we put our two in the same room. Teething makes things so much harder!!
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Last night was a bit better - resettled C at midnight then fed her at 4. Fed Z at 2. They were both up from 4 though, we have limped to 8:45 with lots of screaming and I anticipate an OT nap. I left them in their cots but they were just playing. It's dark in there, I don't interact - what more can I do? I hate it when they are so tired and grumpy, it makes things so difficult. I'm starting to get frustrated with them which isn't really fair, but I'm just at the end if my tether. I didn't get to bed til 10 as I had so much to sort out so I've had about 5 hours sleep, in 3 short bursts. I go back to work in 2 weeks....how will I cope?
I wish DH had a 9-5 job locally so he was home more. I've started getting really anxious esp about bath time - it's so tricky on my own.
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The anxiety is really tough to survive and navigate, especially if it's sleep that you're most in need of.
What are the plans for the girls once you're back at work? Are you going back full time?
And yes, with your husbands job situation everything to do with the girls fall onto you... Like being a single parent in many ways but with the promise of a break every now and then which never seems to happen because even when he's home you're the one steering the ship... Do you know how amazing you actually are!
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You are all amazing too!! I took them out in the morning for a picnic lunch and we do all feel better. Trouble is they were v hard to settle for nap as so excited!
The girls are going to a childminder who is v nice and v excited to have them. I'm doing 3 days a week. Hopefully DH will be able to switch shifts around so he is home more of my work nights too!
Onwards and upwards. One day at a time. Rome wasn't built in a day. It's a marathon, not a sprint. This too shall pass!!
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Ha very wise words!
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Ooooh ooooh ooooh ;D
Last night Z woke at 22:50, and because I am an idiot I thought it was 2:50 and fed her. Then she woke again at 3, woke c so I fed them both. Then she woke at 4 so I took her into my bed (desperate times call for desperate measures).
Heard C on the monitor at half 4. A few cries. Thought I would have to get up but all went silent....until I heard her playing at half 5!! And she has been lovely this morning, played in the dark til 6, had a feed, enormous breakfast, down for her nap like a dream. So I have got the travel cot in our room and will keep Z with us from her first wake up and see if that helps things.
We all feel great though!! Esp naughty Z who got an extra feed!!!
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Cool!! Actually 22.50 until 3 is quite good!
Well done - I found splitting mine really helped but some people find the transition back to sleeping in the same room hard. Personally, my two seemed to learn quicker apart because one learnt before the other so while she slept through I had the energy to concentrate on the other...
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I know!! 4 hours sleep in a row!!! For the first time in about 6 months!!!!!!! In my own bed!!!!!!!!!
;D v excited!!
I may have screwed it up by letting C have a long nap this morning but I had a friend coming round who is always sympathising with me about how "difficult" C is. So after 1h20 mins she was on fine form! Clever little sausage! And we will get back to short morning nap tomorrow. I'm glad, though - I was getting near the end and I think a night of Z in my bed and a long nap for C have given me a bit of a new burst of energy.
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Hey, great night! I hope you had a nice visit with your friend.
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Really happy for you!!!! And glad you could show off a well rested c and feel proud :))))
I also love how you're already thinking of your plan for tomorrow, rather than just trying to survive (well a bit of that too). I remember a similar transition, when my whole world didn't feel like it was falling apart if there was a longer or shorter nap... I felt like I would adjust things the next day or the next nap to compensate and that was really empowering.
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Just posting this thread again so we can all hop on iy
Sleep and EASY support for twins and multiples
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For the first time EVER both babies slept through!! Well, lots of little wakes and grumbles, and a replugs for C at about 2 and a resettle now, but they were the only times I got out of bed!!
I can't believe it, it's like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm sure it has the potential to go wrong again but at least I know it's possible!! Ironically I was awake all night....but hopefully my sleep will improve if theirs does!!
I can't thank you all enough!!!!!!
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Awesome!
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WOW! So pleased for you. Send some of that my way please!
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Yay!!!!
I remember the first night I slept through (it was weeks after the babies actually slept through!) I woke up feeling thick headed and groggy because I was so used to surviving on a few hours!
Hope you get a whole proper night's sleep soon xxx
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Nippo - join us on the twins thread :)
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So so happy for you! Hope your sleep follows soon... That anxiety induced insomnia sounds torturous, but not quite as torturous as the girls getting you up every hour at least :). And like nippo, I had it too.
Fingers crossed for a lovely day for you all.
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Well, it was a fluke. They were up loads last night. But I decided that as they had shown they could sleep through without a feed I didn't feed them in the night....and they weren't happy about it but certainly didn't go ballistic. Naps have been dreadful again today though so we will see what happens tonight!!!
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Don't be disheartened. They've slept through so you're right, they can again. Be strong. You're getting there! Xxx
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C was really OT yesterday after 3 30 min naps. She woke up at 11 and needed resettling, and at 2 but resettled herself. Both awake at 3:30 but I didn't feed, just shh patted and after half an hour or so both went back to sleep. Z then slept til 5:30. C was up and down a lot but we didn't get up til 6. Don't think she really slept much after 4 though, and she looks knackered today.
Please tell me that now I've dropped that feed they will start to get better!!! And please tell me it won't take too long.....I know they are much better than they were but I am impatient!!!!!! :D
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It will get better and it won't take too long! Hang in there ok!
Hugs for last night..
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Thank you!! We are having another bad nap day.....grandma is here and they are just too excited to sleep! Put them down at 1:30 and can still hear them chattering away to each other about how exciting it all is!!! Cute but annoying!!!!
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Yes, on excited days like that you want to enjoy it but the anxiety of managing the routine is always in the back of your mind isn't it. Just wanted to share from my own experience with this, don't be seduced into keeping them up later because they seem happy. They are just stimulated. If they are anything like my two they will take around 30mins to settle into sleep after a fun packed day no matter what time you put them down, so make sure you put them down plenty early enough to account for this.
And with the nap I would allow them no more than ten mins extra before waking them up if they took ages to settle. So if usual wake up is 2.30 I would let them have until 2.40 to make the afternoon slightly less cranky and to preserve bed time. Hope that make sense. I've made the mistake of letting them sleep for their full two hours at nap after going down late, which then leads to a later bed time and simply not enough hours in the night to be restorative because they still wake at 6am (or 5.30 in your case!).
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How are things going?
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We are just back from holiday and had a great time. The girls had quite a good holiday schedule - up at 6 (which was 5 UK time!), nap 10-11, nap 2:30-4 and bed at 8. Put them to bed at 6:30 last night as had had hardly any naps (flying home) and C woke at 1 and at 4:30, z at 3 and 4.....but both up for the day at 5. Just down for first nap now. Although last night wasn't brilliant I think their night wakings are slowly getting a bit better. The EMW is still a massive problem though....
I start work tomorrow and have told the childminder first nap not before 9 and not longer than an hour, and second nap 1:15 and up by 3. I will pick them up at 6 and get them in bed by 7. We will have to see how that goes for a bit - she has some older kids to look after too so there might be a limit to how much I can demand from nap tweaking! She has an assistant to do the school run though so we don't have that stress. Assuming that all goes ok, where should I go with the EMW? Is it possible that they only need 10h at night?!? If they sleep well in those 10h they don't seem tired in the morning, and with C particularly it is usually v obvious if she is tired! And this morning they played in their cots until 6:15 before I had to get them up. Had to do a bit of shh pat at about half 5 but even with that they didn't sleep.
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They might be getting ready to change to one nap ?
Glad you had a nice holiday.
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Hi lily!
Glad you had a lovely time! Ooh work tomorrow... That's a big change for you and for the girls. Given that, I would stick with the two nap plan for at least a few weeks so they have plenty of time to process all that emotion and if it becomes apparent that a ten hour night is all you're going to get from them then you can either do a slightly later bed time or, like Laura said, start a transition to one nap.
Good luck for your first day back tomorrow!
Keep us posted with how the night times are going...
X
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OK, last night they slept from bedtime til 4, then C had a quick grumble but settled with dummy and firm hand, then both up at 5 but played til 6 when I got them up. It's not perfect, but it is very sustainable! CM has texted and they slept 9-10 with no issues.
So we will give it a little while like this and see what happens. My feeling at the moment is that I will accept EMW for the sake of happy little souls in the day, at least while we all settle down. To go to one nap (even if it's 2h long!) they will need to do 6h awake time either side because of their 14h day and I think that is v ambitious at the moment! I have a week off in August so might try then, they will be 13 months old by then. Unless they do it themselves before then I suppose!
Am loving these better nights!!
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they will need to do 6h awake time either side because of their 14h day
You'll probably find they extend their nights. Most do anyway!!
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Oh god, I hope so!! But am too scared to risk it!!!! ;D