BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Buttonbobs on May 09, 2014, 22:07:16 pm
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Carrying on from part 10
Support for dropping the nap part 10...
Please continue supporting each other through the 1-0 transition here:
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Well, we have just completed day 8 NND in a row. :-\ No obvious signs of OT either, reasonable ONS thus far, (think our lowest was 11hrs? Most have been 11.5 though, which isn't too bad I guess). But, we did just have a NW 1.5hrs after bedtime tonight - I'm guessing it was a night-terror, as poor wee man was screaming and rolling around, not acknowledging us being there with him, lasted 5-10mins then he went back off to sleep.
I'm sure he will be a bit OT, this is un-charted territory this long without a nap! It's not through lack of offering - I have given him the opportunity every day to have a nap, but he doesn't.
My husband just questioned if we should be encouraging a VERY late nap (eg: 4pm) and a later BT...??? To me, that is still delaying the enevitable, however. He has always needed more A time in the morning, and can do much less before BT. His recent naps have been around about 2.30/3pm, which is on the late side anyway, if you ask me! He will still go down about 8pm though... WU somewhere around 6-6.30am usually after a nap day.
What do you think? Should I just keep going, offering the nap, sticking to the set BT? (Currently 6.30pm, or fractionally earlier, as it's taking him longer to settle the past few nights - surely that too is a sign of OT creeping in?)
Argh, wish these kids came with an instruction manual at birth!! Sleep is sooo confusing!!
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We have had a few days of late nap and a v late BT as a result, but it does seem to make her really really tired. E copes well with OT but she has been more grumpy after a late nap and late BT with it's inevitable short night than with a NND and a not quite early enough EBT, if that makes sense.
If you feel a catch up nap is needed, can you APOP a car nap or similar earlier in the day (say 12ish) just to tide you over?
E is also a late nap child and until this long run of NNDs that we are getting she was regularly napping at 2.30/3pm and waking her was really hard, even after 2 hours.
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IME the nap does become more of an issue at some point during the 1-0 i.e. they are better off without one. We handled the last stages with H by doing a car nap a couple of times a week when we saw OT creeping in but we kept BT the same which was 6.30pm. Would that be an option? H got to a point where he totally refusued to nap in his bed (he was 3) but he would not have coped with no nap at all so this was quite good for us. M will be v different as she LOVES her nap ;)
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Thanks for the replies. Been offline for a couple of days. I agree that we need to ST him again and now baby is going down at BT easier, I think we could start at BT and try WIWO at night. Problem is trying to persuade DH :)
In the meantime I am keeping a sleep diary and seeing whether there are any patterns.
We had a funny week... Some days I thought he needed a nap and he refused, one day we had a very grumpy boy who fell asleep at 12:00! We still don't give him more than an hour each times just taking one day and might at a time and hoping it will pass soon. Annoying thing is that baby is sleeping through the night at three months but keeps getting woken up by DS!!
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I'm still struggling to get it right 😔. Tried a 40min nap yesterday after 6hr wake up. Had to sit there to get her to calm down and fall asleep. She fights nap times no matter how tired she is. Went to sleep at 9.30pm but then a two hr NW at 2am! Atleast before if she napped she would have a good night sleep 😔. This 1-0 is so frustrating!
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We are still all over the place too, but I have put no nap days on hold for a bit. He was getting too overtired. I've been experimenting with putting him down for a nap earlier than normal to see if it was the last wake time pushing bedtime super late. Yesterday he did 1:00-2:15 after a 9:00-6:30 night. He was down at 9 pm last night and up at 7 today. I got him down about 1:20 and woke by 2:15. It's 8:42 and he is still up. It is pretty hit or miss with night sleep right now. The most we get with a nap is 10.5 hours, but that is rare. The least we get is 9.5 hours. As long as he gets 10 he is ok even if naps are short.
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Khadijah I feel the same! at least before, the nights were short but no NWS. He was awake last night at 1:30-2:30 but then slept til 7:30 and bless him, he was so proud that he had slept til the sun was on his gro clock! Trying WIWO and seems to be working slowly with him settling himself so that helps abit.
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Ugh...he slept only 9:05-6:05. I heard him at 6:05 coughing. No nws though, so I know what you ladies mean about a short night but he sttn. We have guests coming over but at least we are at home. I think I will let him have 1.5 hours today. I'd feel bad giving him only an hour with such little ons. I wonder if yesterday I put down at tad too early at 6/6.25 hours. We sometimes get Ewu because of that.he probably can't nap till about today so it will be 7 hours.
I may go back to alternating. As long as I don't give two Nnd days in a row and the Nnd are at least 12.75-13 hours we are ok. Nnd with 12/12.5 hours give us long night wakings.
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Pineapple Princess: Is this because you are still doing mostly nap-days that your LO needs such long days on a NND?
As long as I don't give two Nnd days in a row and the Nnd are at least 12.75-13 hours we are ok. Nnd with 12/12.5 hours give us long night wakings.
Still trudging along here also. Had a horrible night the other night after 8 consecutive days of no-nap. (Not cause I didn't offer... doesn't seem to matter sometimes how tired he is!!) He was up at 6am yesterday, quite fractious and definite OT signs creeping in, so he had a (late afternoon) 1.25hr sleep - as it was a catch-up I didn't like to wake him even though he wanted to keep sleeping even after that. Was quite grouchy still after his nap yesterday, so went for our 'standard nap-day BT' of 7pm. He was asleep by 7.45pm, then did a 10hr ONS, with a 5.45am WU. NND today, he was still pretty fractious all morning though, so I don't know what will happen tonight/tomorrow.
Am nervous to push BT out after that many NND's, as I see it as more of a catch-up than anything, but we always now get a short night after a nap day. Gahh!
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We handled the last stages with H by doing a car nap a couple of times a week when we saw OT creeping in but we kept BT the same which was 6.30pm. Would that be an option? H got to a point where he totally refusued to nap in his bed (he was 3) but he would not have coped with no nap at all so this was quite good for us
Sorry Becky, meant to say... yes, we are getting to the last stages of this now I feel... last stretch was 8 NND's - I definitely do try the car nap, but my little monkey won't even always fall asleep in the car anymore!!! It's hit & miss, but less stressful on the whole than trying to get him to sleep in his bed at nap-time. I figure if he was THAT tired, he'd fall asleep in the car........ On the days he does have a catch-up nap it usually not til late afternoon, so I tend to make BT 7pm on those days (6.30pm on a NND). He goes to sleep alright, but we don't get high ONS on those nights anymore. Do you think I should keep BT 6.30pm still, or push it out a little later on a nap-day? My LO is a pretty LSN kid.... 11.5/12hrs is his tops it would seem. :-/
BOY this is a fun transition, isn't it!?!
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I would think 7pm would be ok if he is LSN. My DS is more average sleep needs x
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11.5/12 is not LSN... That is pretty average at 2-3 years old... Mine is LSN.. averaging about 11 hours total now. Rachsk8, how much
ONS do you get on a nap day? Ours stays closer to 10 hours/10.25 with a nap. Bedtime is a whole hour later on nap days (9pm). I read on babycenter you just try to keep nap and no nap days within an hour difference for bedtime. The most mine will do on a NND now is 11.5 hours, but even that is rare. What I do now is pretty much try and wake him around the same time in the morning whether it's a nap or no nap day. That keeps bedtimes more consistent as well as nap time. Yesterday he woke at 7:15. We did a NND. i put him to bed at 8 and woke at 7:15. We're giving a 45 min nap today. My guess is that he won't go to bed till 9:15 with that late of a wake up.
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Sorry ladies, just need a wee vent!
THIS PROCESS IS NUTS!!!
Such a great week last week, DS did so well with no naps all week, but he was showing signs of needing a catch-up by Sunday. Since then we have fallen off the track though, and the little monkey won't take a nap to save himself, even though he would really feel so much better with one! Sometimes I feel like an alien has switched my kid, on weeks like this! :-[
Part of the problem here is that DH isn't really on-board with this (he works full-time, so only gets to see DS for a short while morning/evenings/weekends). He let him sleep for 1.25hrs on Sunday, woke him at 4.30pm, and while he did go to sleep easy enough that night, he only does 10hrs at best ONS on a nap-day, so he woke at 5.45am.... so we get into that UT/OT loop again.
He doesn't tack on easily, so I can only really do a 6-6.30pm bedtime or will get a real EW.
IF he naps today (always a big IF) I think I will let him have 45mins, and do a 7.30pm BT. He woke at 6.20am today, so that would be around about a 13/13.5hr day with a nap.... I think BT of 7pm on a nap day is possibly too early. Especially if we only get 10hrs ONS on a nap-day. Almost defeats the purpose of a nap!!
Sorry for the purge, just that everytime I think we are getting there, I feel like we end up back at square one!
A little green with envy of those kids who make this transition so smoothly... like so many kids I know. :-/
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I feel ya, rachsk8. 1.25 nap and 10 ons on a nap day is still decent though. That is the most total sleep we get with a nap too, but only if he gets a short 45 min nap. If I let him do longer naps, ons really suffers. I am not really sure why our nnd have to that long. If I give a 12 hour one we get a two hour long happy night waking, so a 12 hour day is too short for him. I did some experimenting and it seems like we get the best amount of sleep if I keep to about a 12.5/12.75 day for nnd. Nap days tend to be 13 hours awake (14 hour total). Both result in about 11/11.25 ts so either way we go now sleep is the same. I still prefer the little 45 min break. If his wake up is on the later side, like 7:15/7:30, it's better to do a nnd for us or he will push bedtime to 9:30/9:45 or even 10! Even with a short nap, he is doing 8:45/9-7/7:15.
He is going to start preschool in two weeks but only 8-12:30. I think he could still use a short nap when he gets home as I am sure he will be exhausted. I'll have to wait and see. He is handling the nnd better so I think it will be easier to wean him off them in the future.
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I Don't know if tonight was just one off day, but it's 9:28 and my lo is still up. I let him eat some cake after dinner and maybe the sugar is keeping him up. I am not sure. If this continues, I think we are leaning more towards doing more nnds. He handles them a lot better now and doesn't have meltdowns at the end of the day which shows me he seems ready. We'll see. But gosh this the latest he has ever pushed bedtime.
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Good to hear his handling NND better 👍
I've been giving DD naps at the moment. I think she was starting to get really OT so we started 40mins naps and after a few days we got no NW, but now I'm getting short NW but EW 😓. I guess it's just a phase some children go through. I really envy those who make it seem so easy! Lol
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Thanks for the support ladies. This really is hard. We have had a really grouchy, fracious week, which began (irinically) after our last nap day (last Sunday). Whether we put him down too early I don't know, but getting to the point that the rare 'catch up' naps we have seem to be a bit counter-productive, as we get short ONS afterwards. (10hrs). We have also had a 10.25hr night this week, and a couple of 11hrs so I thought we were definately getting into OT-land... (plus behaviour fitted OT) but still total nap refusal. So, what can I do really!? Last night I thought we were in for a awful night, as he was REAL grumpy about it being bedtime, all the stalling techniques under the sun, got him into bed at 6.15pm and he was asleep by 6.45pm - that's pretty quick for DS!! Waiting for the night terrors/NW's to happen, but not a peep until about 5.30 this morning! (That's a good night for us!) Then he went back to sleep until 6.45am! So 12hrs ONS. Practically unheard of!
Not sure what to from here. I keep offering a nap, incase he needs a catch-up. But he's so hard to read - even when I think he will go out for sure, he often refuses still - even a car-nap is failing most times now. So, what would you guys do from here? Put up with some crankiness and keep on trucking? Keep offering nap everyday? We are day 9 post-nap now, which is the longest we've been (bar last week, and when he finally did nap, I'm not sure it made things better or not...)
PP: that's great your LO is handling NND's better! I think that is a big sign (IMO) as most of the time my DS handles the day without a nap quite well. If anything, he is grouchiest in the morning, and picks up in the late morning/afternoon.... weird huh? What time did DS wake after last night's late night?
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Sigh. We are well and truly in OT-land today. 10.5hrs ONS (super grouch/OT last night) and a 5.30am EW. Took him ages to settle down last night.
IF (and I am hoping with everything I have) he has a nap today, would you let him wake on his own accord, given he's soooo OT? Or still cap? And then, what about BT? I was thinking of trying a 7.30pm BT after a nap day, but given he's this OT now, maybe not a good idea? Should I keep it at 7pm as I have been on nap days for a while now?
And then there's the "what to do with my overtired toddler" question. Everything is such a struggle when he's OT.
Breathe. This too shall pass.
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Rachsk8, been there done that with this LO... ugh.. It seems like your LO needs a bit more sleep than my LO though. I wouldn't necessarily call 10 ONS low ONS with a nap though. Pretty much ONS will shrink shorter in the process of the 1-0. Some moms even hold onto the nap if LO sleeps like 9 ONS. Advice on this board seems to follow a bit differently than BBcenter though, so I don't know. The advice I got there was to keep offering naps till BT gets pushed way late and ONS is down to 9 with a nap. Then for sure a nap is just robbing sleep way too much, but if you can still get a one hour nap with 10 ONS, then it's still fine on catch up days. That's just my opinion.
My LO has been sleeping in till 7:30 these days with a 9;15/9:30 BT on nap days and 8:15 on no nap days. No nap days give us about 15-30 min more of sleep, but nap days give us about 10.75-11 TS, which is low but my LO still functions ok as long as ONS is 10. I may need to start shifting him back to a 7 am wake up when school starts. The earliest they let kids in is 8 am but pretty much 8-9 am is free play till there is circle time at 9 am. We live 4 blocks away, so if he still decides to wake later, then I might just aim to have him dropped off by 8:30 a.m. or something.
Yes, he definitely handles NNDs way better these days. He did another today because he was up later. He slept 8:15-7:30 last night with NN. I'll see how he does tonight. if we get EWU, then I know OT is kicking in.
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Yes, he seems to do ok without a nap for 5-6 days, 12.5hr days and 11.5hr nights. But then he needs a catch up. I've just driven for over an hour to get him to sleep, despite the horrible OT. I think I may have to go with a late afternoon nap - i feel that is better than no nap when the dreaded OT sets in. Today he finally went out at 3pm, but not he needed it. He still seems to go to sleep at night ok even with a late nap. Maybe takes him 45-60mins instead of the usual 30. Also thinking of pushing bedtime back to 7.30pm tonight, rather than the 7pm I usually do on NND's. Bit nervous as he's been soooo OT but will see how he is after this nap perhaps. Don't really want to wake him either, but will see how he's going.
What do you guys think?
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My biggest problem is that he refuses his nap so often!! If only he would accept a nap happily, I don't think I'd be on this thread yet! :-(
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Been sitting thinking PP, maybe my kid will be one that can do a late afternoon nap - he's always done longer A time in the mornings, and his last 2 catch-up naps have been around 3pm. Maybe that's just something I should accept and not worry til it really robs ONS or makes BT super late.....
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I agree with you, rachsk8. If he will do a late nap and it doesn't affect bedtime, then you ought to try and hold on to it. For us, my lo needs a long last waketime so I have to put him down by 1:30 and wake no later than 2:15 to even get a 8:45/9 bedtime. I have to say he never refuses the nap if offered, even if he had a Nnd day the day before.
So as usual.. We got a short night after doing two no nap days in a row. 8:15-6:40 ( almost 10.5 ons), so I still think alternating is better for him. Every other day seems to bring about a more consistent wakeup time. He wouldn't have has a second Nnd if I had woken him up earlier. It's just that he slept till 7:30 and if he napped he might have gone to bed at. 9:45/10. As it is,bedtime is already 9/9:15/9:30 with a 7:00/7:15 wakeup on nap days.
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Well, we did a nap yesterday from 3.05-4.30pm, and a 7.30pm BT. He was asleep by 8pm and didn't hear anything until 5.40am. He resettled until a bit after 6am. The sleep was lighter/more restless between 5.40-6am but still, I couldn't have expected any better. He is still tired today, but nothing compared to yesterday. It would be fantastic if he had another nap today, but who knows. Seems the late nap didn't affect BT, so I'm glad to know that, and 10hrs ONS is the best I could hope for, IMO.
Sounds like alternating is good for your LO at the moment PP. We did really well alternating a few months back too. Doubt we can go back to that, but I will keep offering a nap late afternoon most days I think.
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I think we sometimes get short nights because my LO wakes up early in the morning feeling hungry. Yesterday I gave him a bedtime snack. He fell asleep around 8:45 and woke up at 7:15. This was after a 45 min nap. I really wonder if his mucking is because of that and the early waking sometimes. From now on, I am just going to offer something before bed and if he eats it, then ok. If not, then ok too.
We have to skip the nap tomorrow because we have a party to go to at it starts at 1 pm. It's an hour away so I plan to feed my LO lunch at 11:30 then drive to the party. I highly doubt he would nap in the car at 12:00 noon, so it will have to be a no nap day tomorrow.
Racksk8, how did your Lo do last night?
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He's been doing 11.5hrs with one NW past few nights PP... Been out like a light at night though, not his usual restless 30-40mins. We had two 10hr nights after 2 nap days, then nap refusal. He still seems quite cranky lately too so who knows.
Hope the party goes well PP. :-)
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8:45-7:10 after a nap day. That is really good for him. I am really thinking that he does wake early if he doesn't eat enough throughout the day. He has a huge appetite but is a very active boy,so he works it off. I am going to try a close to 8'put down tonight, but maybe 7:45. We are on out way to the party pretty soon. I am feeding him lunch before we go so he doesn't get hungry or crabby. He always wants to eat. It's crazy. He must take after his daddy who is 6 ft. 3 inches tall.
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Ugh... My lo is so wake time sensitive. Yesterday was a nnd. I put down a tad too early for bed. He had a long happy night waking around 3:45 and I ignored him. He was chatting and playing. I looked at the monitor at 5 am and he was asleep. I woke at 7:15 to keep the schedule on track.i must remember our total hours awake on nap and nnd need to be 12.75-13 hours or he has undertired night wakings. This happened during the 2-1 too.
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Interesting PP. Do you think his total wake time will decrease when he does more NND's? My LO is still doing 12hr days mostly, (and mostly NND's). Or at least, I put him into bed at the 12hr mark, this past week he's decided to mix things up on me by going to sleep really quickly, like 10-15mins, not his usual 30mins. So BT has been earlier by 30mins or so, and WU earlier too. I don't know if the slightly earlier BT is why he's going out so quickly, or if there's no particular reason for it.
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That seemed to be the case with us because the first week I started no nap days we had some 11 hour days. After 3 weeks the days went down to 12. We are now on our second month of giving no naps and it's closer to 12.75/13 which matches up to the same total wake time as nap days. This was his pattern during the 2-1 and it took me a while to figure out how to get rid of the long happy night wakings. The remedy was a later bedtime which brought total wake time up. Oddly, mine sleeps better at night with more wake time than less.
Last night we got 8:45-7:15. I woke him up. That's good overnight sleep with a nap. He probably would have slept till 7:30/8 but I didn't want to do another no nap today. He still takes 45 min to fall asleep at night, but the extra snack is helping him knock out before 9 pm it seems and sleep in a bit later as well. We are averaging about 11.25 ts this week which is normal for him.
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Hi ladies I'm still here with you, been reading along but not had much chance to post. Hugs all round for the frustration! DD is now on day 5 without a nap at all. I think it's the longest she's done, and it didn't start well with a 5.30am wakeup with a wet bed :( she didn't resettle but has refused a nap again today (did an hours quiet time instead) and then even stayed awake on a 45 min car journey. Blah. Happy due date to me! We're currently just sticking with trying for a nap/quiet time every day - into room between 1-1.30pm for an hour or so - and then 6.30pm BT. Trying a quick catnap in the car every few days if she seems really tired but doesn't always work. Hoping she'll sort it out herself eventually. We're averaging just over 12h sleep in 24 x
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Jessmum46, 12 is really good at this age. We average 11/11.25 now, but mine has always needed less than the charts. If we put down too early, we get long happy NWs. I still put him down for naps each day except if we have somewhere to go like today. He did 8:45-7:30 last night so we skipped the nap today. I plan for an 8:15 bedtime. Tomorrow I will offer him a nap as he will be at school in the morning.
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Aw Jessmum46, can't tell you how relieved I am to read your DD doesn't always nap even in the car! Thought I had 'broken' my kid as everyone else was saying how their kids crash out in the car straight away! LOL But commiserations as well, it's a bit annoying when you know they could really do with a catch up!
Our last few weeks have been made up of stretches of 8-9 NND's. Last week was NOT a great one, all the hallmark signs of major OT but still nap refusal, even late afternoon nap refusal!! Then it's progressively got better this week, even without a nap, so who knows how much is/was OT and how much just being a 2.5yr old stuff!!?
We are currently out and I'm writing this while DS snoozes in the car. I'm at a not of a loss to know when/if I should offer a nap now or not. He definitely needs some down time each day, but rarely goes to sleep. I just fear that awful, horrible OT kicking in again where you can't blink without it triggering a melt-down. DS is generally a pretty chilled out little guy so you know something is up when he is that crazy irritable.
Now all I need to work out is what time BT tonight should be......!!
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Ha yes, DD has never just crashed out in the car. Not since about 4-5 months old. The only time she will is when she is totally exhausted and not over-stimulated, so for example she'd never crash after nursery even if shattered because she's too wound up and excited.
DD napped for an hour at nursery on day 6 after 5 NNDs - and we got a 10h45 night (very short for her) with a wakeup in the 5-somethings :( so then because she refused nap yesterday we ended up with an almost 13h day (too long for us on a short night and NND) and an OT early wake today. Blah. I can't *make* her nap though! And to be honest it feels like the naps often mess us up unless they are a really short 15-20 min catnap.
Ugh. Give it time.....
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Mine hardly does car naps either, unless he is super tired. I wish he would nap in the car though, as we always have to get him home for nap.
Jessmum46, 10.75 ONS is really good at this age, especially if it was after a nap. I know your LO probably needs at least 12 hours total, but it could also be sleep needs dropping. Ours suddenly dropped around 28 months. He was giving me 12 hours, then it quickly reduced to 11.5 and now at almost 32 months, we're about 11-11.5, but mostly 11.25. He did a lot of 12-13 hours those three weeks I didn't give him a nap, but that quickly changed and now sleep is the same about with or without a nap, so either way he sleeps the same amount.
My Lo was wiped out after preschool. He did 10.75 ONS last night, so after his 45 min nap, we got 11.5 hours total today which is better than his average. He's eating his bedtime snack right now and I'm about to put him to bed. I hope everyone's LOs sleep better for them this weekend!
Rachsk8, sounds like your LO handles no nap pretty well. May just thrown in the occasional catch up nap to curve the OT. I wish mine would consistently sleep 11-11.25 without a nap, but sometimes he really cuts it short, so I know OT begins to kick in. If he was consistent, I would feel ok dropping his nap completely.
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My poor poppit was in bed at 6.30 last night with a fever and feeling yucky. :-( Slept ok, considering, up at 7am. Just very quiet today, not himself. Currently been asleep for an hour. His sleep needs definitely go up when he's unwell so I will let him have what he needs and see how he is when he wakes...
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Hi all, my 23 mo DD has started the 1-0 I was wondering if anyone could give me there experience of how things were at the start? The past 2 weeks we have had nights of 9hrs which seemed very short. We did a NND yesterday (she refused nap) and did a 11hr day, she was good except for an hour where we had a few melt downs. Shes never slept more than 11hrs at night even on NNDs in the past but pulled 12hr 45min! We offered her a nap today but she was more interested in doing rolly pollys around the cot, so we had quiet time in my bed watching tv where shes fallen asleep, when she refuses naps she occasionally will doze watching tv. Im just wondering how to work NNDs and nap days. How long a nap should I give her wheb she dozes? Im not 100% she will tack on again like that, although im hoping its not a one off. What were your experiences. Id like some kind of routine if possible, the last 6 months have been all over the place.
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23 months is still pretty young for the 1-0. How long are her naps? That might be robbing night sleep. I'd say that starting to limit to 1.5 hours for nap might help.
Our signs were short night sleep even with a 1.5 nap. We started trimming it down to one hour and now about 45 min. We tried to drop the nap cold turkey but he got overtired. We tried alternating by only giving a nap every 2-3 days. We still got some overtiredness. We only do Nnd if we have somewhere to go all day. If we do two Nnd in a row, the second night we get early wakeups or night wakings. So pretty much every day we do a 45 min nap at 1:30-2:15 or 1:45-2:30. My lo will usually sleep about 8:45-7:15 with that. We were getting early wakes for a while, but it turned out that he was hungry so now we do a bedtime snack.
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We have tried capping naps but her days are still really long.
Shes a nightmare to get to sleep at naptime and often refuses but once out she would sleep hours. We have kept note of nap/day legth/night sleep, she will go to sleep after 11hr day with no nap, 30min nap - 13hr day. 1hr nap - 13.5-14hr day. And 1.5hr is just beyond lol shes refusing her nap more and more, this is something that has just slowly progressed.
Im open to any suggestions to try, I know she doesn't get much sleep and worry she needs more.
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Haribo we also started 1-0 early, now at nearly 29 months seem to be almost done. What has worked for us over past few months has been to offer nap every day. Routine of WU whenever (but usually 6.30-7), try for nap into room between 1-1.30, if refused after 45 mins then get up and NND with BT 6.30. If naps, then wake by 2.45/3pm and BT 7pm (often 15-30 mins chatter before sleep). As naps have been refused more regularly we've started calling it 'quiet time' instead of nap/sleep time and J has a special 'quiet time bag' of activities she can do whilst sitting in bed. We dim lights and shut curtains, she gets into bed and sits with her bag and some books. Most times she will keep herself occupied for 45 mins to an hour, once in a while she will crash out for a bit (maybe once a week now). We had quite a few weeks of frequent NWs but they seem to be lessening and now nights seem to lengthen instead of shorten after a few NNDs in a row.
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Thanks jess, that sounds like what we have been doing, we let her WU when shes ready, offer nap up until 2pm, if she's still jumping around in cot then I will take her out into my bed and we will watch tv in bed for an hour to relax, sometimes she will fall asleep for half an hour, sometimes not. I do prefer the idea of her being in the cot because it means I can get things done.
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Jess if I read right your LO did 12-12.5hr day with or without nap? My DD had a 30min nap today and has been up 13.5hrs so far. She just will not sleep, surely thats extreme?
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We started early also, (probably around 23m was the very beginning) and now at almost 32 months we are getting nearer to the end (I hope!!!) We were averaging about a nap a week also, with 11.5hr nights on average. DS was unwell on the weekend, and slept more like 13hrs a day, with a nap every other day. I am guessing he's still in recovery because we have had uncharacteristically long nights since then... and (this is the most unbelievable part for me!!) he's pretty much been taking us into his room and wanting stories and bed at night!! Trouble is, I don't know whether to go with it (I do want to, I think it's awesome that he's maybe learning when he feels tired!!!) or keep him up a little longer, as yesterday he slept 12hrs from 7.30pm and woke at 7.30am (that's a real sleep in for him!) then wanted to go to bed at 5.50pm!! I strung it out a little bit, got PJ's on slowly and read extra stories, then he was in bed at 6.30pm and out to it in 10mins (this too is soooo rare - often takes him at least 30mins to get to sleep!!) He woke at 6.45am today, so another 12hr night.
Previously my LO would do anything to avoid bedtime, so my jaw has dropped when he actually has WANTED to go to bed lately. I'm figuring he's lulling me into a false sense of security and will go back to his sleep fighting ways again shortly. :-P Pessimistic?
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Haribo I think it was generally more like 11.5-12h on a NND and closer to 13h days on nap days by the time she'd gone to sleep. How many NNDs/naps etc has your LO been doing recently? Is she an independent sleeper? How are you handling nap/BT refusals eg WIWO etc? Given her age and as she's near the beginning of transition I'd be thinking about things like 2y developmental leap and OT to begin with rather than assuming she's ready to drop the nap entirely. Do you have a thread on the main board for more eyes on your routine?
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Rach - not refusing sleep is my dream lol fingers crossed its the start of good things for you.
Jessmum - this is what we have had the last few days
WU 8.40
NO NAP - 10hr 50 day - slept 12.5hrs
BT 7.30
WU 8.15
Nap 2.35 -3.10 (35 mins) - 13hr day -
BT 9.15 slept -10.5hr - 1NW
7.45
1.30 - 2.30 (1hr) - 13.5hr day - slept 11 -
9.10 1 NW
8.30
2.35-3.10 ( 35min) - 14 hr day - slept 9
10.30 3 nws
on nap days I have PD when shes been awake 12hours.
Her nights have been getting shorter and shorter since 18mo and taking forever to fall asleep at bedtime, the last 2 months shes been refusing naps on and off, slowly increasing. The above naps are when shes fallen asleep watching tv, I cant remember the last time she went in her cot at naptime. Shes not a full IS we started GW as she was rocked to sleep until 10mo due to reflux, and theres always been something that's stopped us from leaving the room, teeth/illness. However she does put herself to sleep we just stand in room, during the night she wakes and doesnt need us to go in as she settles herself. When she refuses at nap or bt we basically just stand there, if times getting on we do sometimes try rock her to apop her asleep but it makes her angry so we put her down to contine her jumping and rolly pollys. Im sure shes overtired after last night but I cant get her to sleep.
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Ive not made a thread but I think I may need too, its just finding the time lol
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Lol I know what you mean! Ok so if she's not an independent sleeper that will complicate things a bit - can you make any progress with the gradual withdrawal now? Also, what time are you actually putting down for bedtime? I wonder on those really short nap days if you're missing her tired window and she's already OT by the time you're trying?
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we properly could progress yes, we have been putting her down at 8-8.30 depending on WU so id say roughly 12hr after WU. I did wonder if this was to late but shes happy with 11hr days with no nap at all so thought 12hr would of been about right. Worth a try earlier?
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Hmm, 12h should be ok. Maybe she really is quite LSN and further along in 1-0 than you thought? Have you tried maybe alternating nap and NNDs?
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Im really not sure. I worry about her sleep and making her OT but shes fighting all sleep, all of the time. Shes very spirited and starting to express her opinions on things during the day and im wonderig if this is continuing into the night, she doesnt want to sleep therefore will keep herself awake until she physically cant any longer. That or shes OT and its making her mores spirited, its hard to know.
Even after a NND she refuses her nap, I'll be honest last night I think me and my partner were at breaking point with her, she was using the cot as a trampoline, banging on bars and shouting, throwing things around, using all her little songs/phrases she knows makes us laugh, im assumimg to get attention, but at 10.15pm it's not very funny.
Ive noticed that she has alot of wee accidents when shes really tired where shes pretty 100% other days, I might just use that as an indicator as im out of any other idea. However even then I cant make her sleep and the more I try the more she fights.
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Hugs, that does sound tough. Does she settle easier on NNDs? I wonder if you being in the room isn't helping now though either? Given she's capable of lying herself down and going to sleep, and that things are crazy anyway I'd be tempted to just bite the bullet now and get out of the room. Reassure with voice from outside if necessary, but otherwise ignore all silliness. If she wants to play, let her do it, if she wants to have a tantrum about it, fine, reassure her, but seems a shame for you and DH to lose your whole evening.
Other thoughts - have you tried a set BT? I think that's been really helpful here, especially in this nap dropping phase. I know in the past if we've moved BT later to compensate for a late WU, DD gets OT. The way I think of it is if she had a lie-in, she probably needed the extra sleep. If I then take it away from her again with a later BT then she can't catch up if she needs to. Does that kind of make sense?
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It makes perfect sense.
On NNDs she out like a light, or was the last time we tried, she may not anymore judging on last couple of nights. part of it i thimk is I cant wind her down anymore, 2 weeks ago she would get pjs on, brush teeth, 3 books, song, bed. Now pjs are a wresting match, books consist of her crying/shouting because she wants to read them instead but when you give her them she still gets streased out, before shes even in cot shes wound up. Whats ment to relax her is stressing her out for some reason, shes just not quite old enough to explain why.
I think your on to something and maybe we should just leave, I tried earlier to leave for a few mins at a time and she sung "come on mummy" Then fake cried. No one tells you about all this when you sign up to parenthood!
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I don't want to sound like I'm complaining again, lol, but I'm confused and wondered what you all made of master 2.5 sleep pattern of late?
Last weekend he had a virus but not too major, just lethargic, bit of a temp, off good, but seemed to perk up in a day or so. Since then he has clocked way more sleep hours than usual and had way more naps than usual again! Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing I guess but I'm at a loss to know what to do about bedtime etc. he's started taking himself to bed pretty much and usually much earlier than I would put him down. He's been sleeping 12-12.5hrs at night and napping every 2-3 days. Even after a nap yesterday he did 12hrs last night - a little restless from 3am so maybe a bit UT? But DH (who was looking after him) said he woke from a 1hr nap pretty grumpy. 13hrs is unheard of really. I'm wondering what's up, if he's catching up or changing sleep patterns again. He is so much happier and easier to deal with with all this extra sleep - he was averaging 11.5 hrs a night and one nap every 7-8 days up til last week.
Thoughts? Growth spurt? Recovery from illness? Change of pattern/catching up?
Long may it last I guess! ;-)
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Now I've jinxed it. We had a 5am wake and he wouldn't go back to sleep. :-( Was a 6.30pm BT as usual after a nnd. He seemed a little OT which is a bit strange as he had a nap 2 days before, and had an 11.75hr night... Oh boy this process is a trying one. :-(
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Sorry to hear that Rach :(. Maybe he had quite a bit of catching up to do after being ill? Could be a growth spurt or something developmental though, around 2yo Js sleep needs increased massively for a few weeks then settled back to normal. I assumed that was just growth/development though did enjoy the 8am lie-ins!!
J hasn't napped for 10 days now (great timing hey? DS is 9 days old.....) and is generally doing ok, sticking with set BT 6.30pm and apart from this morning usually getting a post-6.30am wakeup. Now getting to the stage I'm worried she will take a nap and throw us into complete chaos!
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Hi all,
I swear this process is one step forward, one sideways, one backwards, rinse & repeat!!!
Sadly (?) we are over the spell of long 12hr nights + frequent naps. I am picking it was a combination of sickness and a growth spurt as DS was eating like he had hollow legs for a while there also! Now we're back to the familiar land of inconsistency. :-)
Any thoughts or comments on the following pattern, and anything I should try? We have had (since our last nap which was Thursday) some very solid ONS (not common!) but ranging from 10-12hrs.
Here's our diary of last few days:
Thursday WU 6am, nap 2.10-3.10pm. BT 7.45 (asleep 8.15pm)
Friday: WU 6am (9.75hrs ONS), NND, BT 5.50pm, (asleep 6.15pm)
Saturday: WU 6.10am, NND, BT 6.10pm, (asleep 6.30pm)
Sunday: WU 6.20am, NND, BT 6.15pm (asleep 7pm)
Monday (today) WU 5.50am, NND, BT...???
So, after our nap day we had a 9.75hr ONS, then basically 2 x 12hr nights, and last night just short of an 11hr ONS.
DS seems to be handling the NND's well thus far. He gets a little fractious, but no absolute melt-downs. I've been tending to do BT on the earlier side rather than the later as he doesn't generally tack on easily. My logic being I'd prefer an UT EW than an OT EW... if that makes any sense!?
Our previous string of NND's (as in, nap refusal days) was 8 in a row, and by that time he certainly NEEDED to catch up. But I'm wondering if you think I should keep every NND to 12hrs (which I have been attempting to do, give or take a few minutes) or try something else? Not sure what the 11hr ONS was last night, OR what time to make BT tonight. Do you think it's more about keeping it consistent, and the overall sleep he has in a week? I tried to get him to resettle when he wakes before 6am (he;s not allowed up until 6 anyway) but he won't have a BAR of lying down in bed again once he's decided it's the morning.
Gahhhh. Any help, as always, appreciated. :-)
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We've found set BT really helpful here, don't know if it would be worth a try for you? We've stuck to 6.30pm, asleep by 6.45pm with quiet time every day after lunch. She's had one nap in last two weeks - on that day we just did BT 30 mins later than usual and she slept to usual WU time of 6.30am. First few weeks of doing this we had one or two short NWs most nights, now she's STTN most nights :) (praying I haven't jinxed it.....)
My worry with sticking to 12h days was that relies on LO sleeping 12h or more at night otherwise you end up in an EW/EBT cycle that gets progressively earlier. I think you're right that overall sleep in a week probably matters more now than on a day to day basis. We occasionally get a long catch up night of 12.5-13h but most usually in the 11.5-12h range.
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Yes I think this might be us!! BT went well tonight, I tucked him in at 6pm (not a single complaint) and he was asleep by about 6.20pm. So I don't know what sort of night/morning WU that will bring... but it's just that bit too early really. 6.30pm would be great - maybe I will ease it out a little, bit by bit and see what happens....
My worry with sticking to 12h days was that relies on LO sleeping 12h or more at night otherwise you end up in an EW/EBT cycle that gets progressively earlier.
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Sounds like a plan - maybe stick with 6pm for this week and then push to 6.15 and then 6.30?
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Right. Will do! Thanks. :)
'Watch this space....' hahaha
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11hrs ONS, 5.20am wake up. Any tips on extending that a little?
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I have been kind of MIAlately. My lo has been back to napping most days now. We have been getting mostly 11-11.25 hours total each day. Mostly 8:45-7:15 with a 45 min nap. Sometimes we get 9:00-7:00. If we get a short night, like. 9.5 then I offer a 1.5 hour nap.
Rachsk8, I was told to keep bedtime on nap days and no nap days consistent. I tried to aim for 12 hours awake and got too much variation in overnight sleep, so now I do more of a set bedtime. Also, bedtime on no nap days shouldn't be more than about one hour earlier than nap days.
We stick with:
Nap days:
Wake by 7:15/7:20
Nap around 1:30/1:45-2:15/2:30
Put down for bed at 8:00. He falls asleep between 8:45-9:15
No nap days
Wake 7:15
Asleep by 8:00/8:15
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how's everyone doing? Well in the last week it has all gone a bit awry here and M has not napped much...she has been nap refusing a bit and can't work out if it is OT or just developmental stuff, she is 3 so she can't nap forever!
On no nap days she has a 6.30pm BT which is prob not early enough but as early as I can do most nights and if I can get her to nap for an hour we do 7pm. I am not sure whether to keep working on her to nap or just do a car nap for 30 mins every so often to keep OT at bay...would rather not of course but not sure we will manage on no naps. We have had some sadness at BT a couple of nights and some EW ups although she has been staying in bed until the sun comes up at least.
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I *think* we're just about done here. J hasn't napped at home for a few weeks now and has been doing well with 6.30/45 BT and pretty much 12h nights (occasionally more), NWs have reduced too. The days she sneaks a nap at nursery BT is a bit silly and she still wakes at normal time, then has a very grumpy next day from a shorter night. So as from next week we are planning to ask nursery to keep her awake - wish us luck! Quiet time is working well here though and she will happily stay on her bed in her room playing for an hour or more :). So at least a little break for me.....unless DS decides that's time for feed/screaming etc.....
Becky - in case it helps we did 6.30 BT on NNDs and 7pm on nap days for quite a while. As NNDs started increasing we went for a car nap 15-20 mins every third day or so just to hold off the OT and stuck to a 7pm BT latest on those days depending on morning WU time. Occasionally J would take an hour or so at nursery around midday. It's only in the last couple of weeks though that nap days have really thrown BT off badly and that's what makes me think it's time for the nap to go completely.
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thanks katherine, will see if we can do that too. I am not sure she is ready as on NND's she def is not so settled at Bt but we'll see x
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Jess we are in a very similar place! DS had his first nap in 2 weeks on Thursday but was actually more tired yesterday I believe so I need to cap that even on a catch up I believe. He had one week of good nights with no NW's then back to NW again so there's def some OT still. I have had a glimpse of what the end of this process might be like though so I live in hope that maybe we are almost done?!?
I have a real tired kid still today but he did have a 12hr night and is the king of nap refusals so I can only keep offering a short nap and hope he gets good ONS to recover I guess.
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Btw, does anyone else's kid act really tired, especially in the mornings at home yet still not nap and yet generally seem a little better in the afternoon after some quiet time? He yawns and yawns especially in the car but only goes to sleep maybe 10% of the time in the car now?
Am I hyper-vigilant? Lol
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Help. The nap day sent things downhill and I now have a silly OT kid... DH reckons of he naps we should let him as long as he wants to and self regulate. I'm not so sure. Isn't ONS more restorative? So would you cap at 1hr and go for a normal BT? (6.30/7)?
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Really do not want to be here but don't think dd got the memo!
Dd gets ot on a capped nap so we've been having 2h naps with BT shenanigans and a short night. I was hoping she would continue like this for a while but yesterday she refused nap (usually she's down wo a peep) and same today :(. Bt was 5.30 last night and she had a few upset nws beforw 12 but sttn till 6.45. It seems like she's going to drop the nap ct! Anyone else go this route? How ugly does it get?
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Rach I'm with you on this, I'd still cap because risk is long nap equals another short night.
Aishi I'd just keep offering nap at usual time, I found with J the number of NNDs gradually increased. Once she was regularly refusing more than a couple of days in a row we did a quick 15-20 min car nap in the afternoon just to tide us over to bedtime. We also didn't use super EBT (although DD has always tacked well) as we found long night meant more risk of nap refusal the next day and at that stage she couldn't handle too many NNDs without getting OT even if night sleep was long. We just did 6.30 on NNDs and 7pm on nap days.
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Hi! We are back! After a couple months of capping naps, and stupidly short nights, we decided to go CT on the nap drop.... In the last week he has had one nap and it made the night short after that so he was actually more OT after a nap day. Good to read through your posts ladies to see that the same things going on.
But, we are STILL getting EWs! Seems to make no difference what time he goes to bed, so I am trying to get him to bed as close to 12 hours after WU, but that is super early, so he ends up having 13 hr days most days. Amazingly, his behaviour seems better without the nap, but I think he is going to get really OT soon. Any tips? I need to extend his WU time seriously. (He wakes at 5;30 ish most day and asleep by 6:30ish except for one morning he slept til 7:00 after a brief NW at 4am). Any one tried W2S with a 3 year old?
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how old is your DD Aishi? Would she not manage a 1.5 nap? 2 hours is pretty long? We had no issues with OT when going from 2-1.5 hours but we did from 1.5-1 hour.
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Becky, how did you handle OT with the 1hr nap?
We have been doing the 1hr nap for a while now but he keeps getting OT and EW and then after a few days crashes and has a long night and then the cycle starts again. I am trying to figure out if it it really is him becoming OT because of the short nap or if he is actually UT and needs his nap capped even more and he becomes OT again because of the short nights...
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Katherine didn't dd have ot ew anyway from the longer day if u weren't using ebt? That's what I'm afraid will happen here...
She did have another ebt today so I'll see how she is tomorrow. I was hoping that after a couple of nnds even with ebt she would eventually be tired enough to nap iykwim?
Becky dd is 2.5 on the 17th of July. I was nap capping at 1.5 for a few weeks but I was having nws and ew so I went back to 2h nap and short nights which was fine until she decided to refuse the nap yesterday....
Anna- I remember reading when ds dropped his nap at 3.5 in Jan that at the beginning of 1-0 most kids can only handle 10.5h days (iI think it was mamma mia who was only doing 10h days...) Have u tried shorter days to see if he tacks on? My ds can only now handle 12h days 6 months after dropping the nap and I still have to have ebt once or twice a week for him to cu...
Oh also have done w2s on him recently to break 5am habitual wu. Did it for a week an hour before his ewu time. Hth!
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Same here with EW Bongabees - pretty sure DS is an 11-12hr (max) ONS kid, so some days he has 13hr days as well. I think we somehow need to gradually move BT, but gradual and try to stay consistent. If 12hrs is his max ONS then if he is in bed at 6 (which he is sometimes especially if he WU at 5-5.30) then moving BT til closer to 7 over time would def help I feel. But he tends to make changes very slowly. Or at least wait til the clocks change again and then our 6am will be 7am and somehow feel so much better! :-P
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She did 5.30-6 so I was wondering what time to have nap and how long to let her have...1-2.30 with 7 BT?
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Aishi - J isn't generally prone to EW when OT, she's more likely to have NWs and then sleep in late in the morning. We did have a couple of EWs but was able to resettle most of the time, the times I couldn't we just stuck to our plan anyway, offered nap at usual time, did normal BT of 6.30/7 depending on whether she napped or not. Yes we did have quite a few weeks of NW every night but they were usually brief, and not hard to resettle. I may completely jinx myself saying this ::) but I actually think this transition has been the easiest one for us because we've just stick to a set plan and let her sort it out herself. She is remarkably good at taking a long catch-up night if she really needs it!
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Thanks Aishi, did W2S work then? I am going to try it... It's the only thing left to do. If I do 10.5 hour days I will put him down for bed at 3:30pm on a 5am WU! That's just not doable!
Other than that, I also think I need to just try to get BT gradually later and HOPE it makes WU later, but not convinced it will work here.
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I hear ya!
Other than that, I also think I need to just try to get BT gradually later and HOPE it makes WU later, but not convinced it will work here.
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we did ok with the 1 hour nap, yes she was a bit grumpy but any longer affected the nights and she needed more than a CN. I doubt she will nap today as she had an hour yday and then a long night so likely just a 6.30pm BT. We are just playing it by ear each day atm, there is no set plan but I just don't do BT earlier than 6.30pm or later than 7pm x
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So I out him for a rest and he fell asleep! now not sure how long to give him... Cat naps seem to affect the BT anyways, so would you do a long catch up nap and hope it helps with the next NNDs. This is only second nap in a week.
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She fell asleep at 12.45 she was asking to nap so I guess the nnds caught up with her. So dyt I should only let her nap for 1h?
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Ha! He woke after an hour... We will see what happens tonight, but I Plan on EBT anyway.
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Anna- forgot to reply w2s did work with ds so good luck! We do still get 1-2 ew per week but that's due to ot not habitual
Dd napped 12.45-2 she woke herself. I did 7 BT but she didn't sleep till 7.30 so a 13.5h day. So do any of you have 'rules' you follow with the 1-0 like how long to let lo nap and day length, BT based on whether it was nap or nnd etc?
Slightly OTT if BT shenanigans are due to dev reasons would you still get them on a nnd?
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our rules are 6.30pm BT on a no nap day and 7pm on a nap day regardless of length (but M does not nap for more than an hour)
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Dthanks becky- is that regardless of wu? Do you wake in the morning?
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Dd did 7.30-5.55 :( she had a 1h15 min nap. So is this what I should expect? Any sort of nap length resulting in shorter night sleep? And Some naps days followed by nnds?
Won't it be quicker to just go straight to nnds with set bt and ride out ot?
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Aishi, we did short capped naps for a couple of months until our nights got silly, like 9-5am. Then we just decided to ride out OT and go CT on the nap. We offer a nap/rest everyday, but in the whole we saw he was ready because last time we tried more NNDs we got lots of NWs but this time his nights were much more settled. We try to get him to bed no more than 13 hours after WU. I know this is a long day, but as I said we just can't get him to bed earlier. He then has a nap about every fourth day. But this is only a week or so into it, so I am thinking he will get very OT at some point.
Thanks for the encouragement about W2s, we did it this morning and got a 6:15 WU! Whoo! So much nicer after 6am! FX for the rest of the week... How often do you have to do it before you can let them regulate?
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Thanks Anna. I did it for 7 nights and then left him to it :)
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Hello ladies,
I am having a really difficult time with DS. we have generally been sticking to the route of capped nap of 45min-1hr. and have been having night of 10.5-11hrs. DS is doing ok and is generally ok when woken from the nap but i know he prefers longer nights and does much better with them. the day before yesterday we had a NND as we were out all day. he handled it well other than a few tired moments here or there. I put him to bed 12hrs after WU and he STTN 11.5hrs and woke happy and chatting (is 11.5hrs enough night sleep after a NND? i would of thought he would sleep more than that?) That day i did our normal nap time and planned on capping at 45 min but couldn't wake him so i let him sleep an extra 15min and woke at an hour. that night it took him 30min to fall asleep and we had a hr long NW and EW. total night sleep 8.5hrs!!! now i am confused... was he UT or OT? or could it just have been teeth? (he is getting cutting his 3rd 2yr molar but gave meds at NW)
i don't really know what to do because we are stuck with EW because of either being put to bed early because of no nap or because of short nights after napping...
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my honest opinion is that until all teeth are in it is really hard to know....I know with both mine that sleep settled a lot after they were all in. The way I tend to do things these days is work out their total sleep in 24 hours so for M that is 12-12.5 and then go from there. I know that the days she naps an hour she will do about 11 overnight so I don't put her to bed before 7pm ish and on the days she has no nap we do 6.30pm set. I tend to go with setting a bodyclock for both of mine as it worked really well with H and tbh I can't go changing up the day constantly on one child's needs. Sounds harsh maybe but we all have to work together and through the summer there is just no way we would do really early bedtimes as it impacts on all of us...
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Argh she is driving me crazy! Wu was 5.55 and she only did a 45 min nap 12.40-1.25 and is still chatting in her cot at 6.55. It doesn't seem to matter what time I pd. If she has a nap she takes ages to fall asleep >:( >:( feeling so frustrated!
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It is such a frustrating transition - I feel you! We are stuck in the EW boat too - BT is probably too early at 6pm when we only generally get 11/11.5hr nights bug how do I change BT when we get 5am WU?? We insist on him staying in his room til 6, but he hardly ever goes back to sleep. Argh.
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Do, we tried w2S for two mornings now and it seems to be working... We got 6:15 yesterday and 7:10 today. That was about a 12 hour night! Worth a try Rach if the EWs are habitual... It means the NNDs are more manageable after a better ONS and BT not so early.
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Wow, that is great bongabees!! I don't know if it's habitual or not... have never tried W2S... his WU time is fairly inconsistent, but seems to be at around the 11/11.5hr point, which is why I am wondering if perhaps that is all the sleep he needs??? Seems too low to me, he's not even 3 yet.
Can you explain exactly how W2S works? Like, the timing of it etc?
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I think you are supposed to go in and rouse them slightly about an hour before their normal WU time. The other night when DS woke at 4am for a drink, he then slept til 7. This is what gave us the idea that it might work for him. He had been on NNDs for a while and still waking at 5/5:30 everyday but extremely tired in the mornings, so I knew he needed more sleep. It is a last resort, after we tried everything else. We tried short, long, early, late naps, EBT, late BT supper before bed, milk in his room for the mooning, groclock, rewards, I mean EVERYTHING. So this is really a last resort.
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Yeah we have tried a lot too and still getting 5am WU... I'm sure he should be getting more than 11grs ONS.... it's difficult to predict cause he has started waking several times in the night again - 11.20pm is becoming very common lately. I'm getting tired if 5am starts to be honest!
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So much for tacking on. I had the night from hell. She was in bed by 5.20 (refused nap), nws 9, 11, 12, 3 and up at 5.55. I've been trying to get her to sleep by wiwo but nothing yet. She was awake at 6 yesterday too. How the hell am I going to get her to sleep enough if she won't tack on or nap?!
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Might be worth trying an early nap Aishi. When we first started out with the 1-0 J would go down at nursery 4.5-5h after WU after a couple of NNDs and a bad night x
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Ah hugs for the bad nights and EWs. The only thing I can say is you are not alone, it's a tough transition.
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That would mean nap at 10.30/11?? If she takes it should i cap? And if she doesn't nap should i just set bt at 6.30 like u did?
How did u get J to resettle? I did wiwo and she stayed in cot till 8 by didn't sleep. I was looking back at the thread on ds when he was nap dropping. It was a 29 page thread ::O ::O and I'm still having ew with him! This does not bode well for dd!
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I have done a lot of AP for this exact situation Aishi - I have a champion nap fighter - lots of car naps here when things have gone really pear shaped. Hugs - this is a really difficult transition.
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Thanks for the hugs ladies. It really is a pita.
I've been thinking about this all morning since reading through ds's thread and I think I only have two options as dd isnt napping although I'll keep offering (she never naps in the car). Either I set bt and ride out ot or I stick to really short nnds say 10.5h. So this is what I know about dd: she's incredibly sensitive to ot (I could never set naps for her) and she will tack on sleep when not ot.
If I do set BT I know she will get ot but I don't know how long it'll take to come right (I did set BT for ds at start of 1-0 and it didn't work for him as he was ew every day like dd and he's sensitive to ot too). Or I go for 10.5h day and hope she tacks on so that would mean 4.30 BT and a huuuge leap of faith on my part. That seems crazy to me but could it work? If she wakes at 6 again i could try for a nap and later bt and at least to get her caught up so I could use it as a springboard to push day later? Ugh I don't know...
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Ok ignore my last post for now! Shes actually gone to sleep for 11.05. Thank god! How long should i let her sleep?
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Sooo she slept 11-12.30. Should I aim for 6pm BT so its one been a 12h day? (She was doing 5.5h pm a on any nap length before but am a was 6.5 not 5h a iykwim?)
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I'd do 6.30 but J probably copes better with OT than your LO. So yes 6pm sounds good. As far as resettling in the am I would just go in, tell her it was still night time and mummy and daddy were sleeping, tuck her back in and sing our bedtime songs again if she wanted. Rarely she didn't go back to sleep but usually she did. I do think this is where being a bit more set about times really helps though, the set BT has certainly helped regulate her body clock so she knows when 'morning' is and is likely to resettle if it's more than 30 mins or so before normal WU.
The other thing I found is on most NNDs J would rarely do less than an 11.5-12h night regardless of when I put her down for bed (just guessing that was the minimum 24h sleep total she could cope with) so sticking to our 6.30 BT whatever the morning WU or day length did actually help us here. I'd be a bit scared to do 4.30pm BT......All LOs are different though. Perhaps you'll have to offer a nap every day and make it uncapped when she does sleep, with short days on NNDs?
Although J isn't a car sleeper she would for a few weeks (in the peak of nap refusals) drop off in the car around 3.30pm. I'd give her 15-20 mins (any more she was awful to wake) and then push through to BT. Might be worth a shot? Nap transitions are the only times we've had success with car sleeping.
Hugs again Aishi, it's frustrating but I think if you pick a plan and stick to it, you'll come through ok :)
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And just by way of encouragement, we have stopped naps here and last night J did 6.30pm-7am without a peep :D. There is an end! ( I hope......)
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Yay for J. Thanks Katherine! I guess I'm going to have to think about the best route forward. It all seems up in the air whether she will nap or not, how long, when to do bt. Its overwhelming even second time round!
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Wrt to set BT Katherine how long did it take for J to regulate? 1-0 was gradual for you wasnt it? Dd was easily napping 2+h a week ago then suddenly she had 2 nnds, a few 45-1h naps and then few nnds again. It feels like she wants to drop the nap ct.
i'm wary about 4.30 BT too so I guess I can only try a short nnd if wu is late enough...so I guess if she doesn't nap I'll try set BT for 6.30 (what u said about having had enough ns by 11.5-12h makes sense too)
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1-0 was fairly gradual, took about 7-8 months from first NND to no naps, but started similarly to how you describe - napping fine one day, refused the next and went to 1-2 NNDs per week which gradually increased.
What exactly do you mean by regulating? Consistent WU time? It's hard to say really as Js BT has always been 6.30pm give or take 30 mins or so. So I haven't really gone from A times to using a set time.
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No I meant to get used to 6.30 BT following nnds WO getting really ot on the long days iyswim
ETA 7-8 months to get through it? Ugh I was hoping it could be done in a month!
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Still going here, 8 months on as well. Sorry to say! Some kids do transition quickly and easily others not so much. :-(
We had a 12hr night here finally! There was a 10-15min NW at 11.20pm (seems like clockwork lately there's a NW at that time). He has had a string of 11hr nights and he was definAtely getting grouchy and fracious last night... That was an almost 13hr day! Sounds too log to me, I'd like more than 11hrs ONS. What time would you make BT tonight? Remembering I'm trying to move it out gradually later. Although I did a 5.45pm BT last night as he couldn't have handled much longer. So he did 6-6 with one NW.
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Also, do you think W2S could help this 11.20pm
NW we have got almost every night the past week? Couple of weeks ago we had sttn!
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I would stick to 6pm cos he prob needed a cu night. Re w2s I imagine it word work for the 11.20,wu. Its worth a try ??
I had dd in bed by 6 and she was asleep for 6.25! Quickest BT in ages! Hopefully she's caught up on some of that horrible ot and will sttn...so do u think I should still offer a nap tom and if so what time? How can I get some consistency in planning nap days vs nnds?
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I think one of the trickiest things about this transition is working out what works for your child - as they are all so different, and this transition is no exception. Mine is a champion nap-refuser and does not tack on easily at all, so I have to do EBT and cross fingers. He's only JUST now doing some decent length sleeps, but as you can see, we have lots of 11hr nights and EW too. Some kids will happily nap when they really need to, and will tack on too.
In my experience, it's been really hard to get any consistency. I have kept offering a nap all along, and accepting quiet/rest time if it's a NND. My kid will also nap late and still go to bed at a reasonable time (at the moment) so especially earlier in this process, if he didn't nap but really needed to, I would do a later afternoon emergency car nap - just be sure to cap it! :-) We eventually fell into a pattern of 1 nap day/1 NND which was great for a while, then he extended it out to 1 nap day/2 NND's etc. I pretty much have always given him the opportunity for a nap since we started and he has napped sometimes when it surprised me, and other times not when I really wished he would!!!
Not saying my experience will be yours of course. It's really a hard phase, has made life quite stressful for me over this period of adjustment. I am finally seeing some light at the end of the tunnel, but we still get OT days and I just try and have some quiet, low-key days at home if needed, especially in the afternoon, and try get some fresh air and activity outside in the morning.
We will get there, sooner or later. :-)
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She sttn!! 6.25-7.10 without a peep! Its such a relief that she caught up! I'll pd for nap by 1.30 but I don't expect she will nap. Wwyd?
Rach- i agree figuring out what they need is the hardest part of this transition especially since it seems to change on a daily basis!
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No I meant to get used to 6.30 BT following nnds WO getting really ot on the long days iyswim
Hmm.....a few months I'd say......but it increased gradually. So to start with it was too much on one NND. Then she'd be ok for one NND but get NWs the second day. Etc etc. But she would almost always settle easily at BT which I really found helpful. The odd short NW I can deal with ;)
Agree with rachsk it is hard to get consistency for LO in terms of a regular nap day/NND pattern, same WU time or whatever, but we kind of decided consistency for us was more important than chasing a consistency for LO which may not happen. So we always offered a nap, at the same time each day, and kept a consistent BT. So it kind of took the stress away :)
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Thanks Katherine that makes sense. I'm going to try really hard to relinquish control for this transition! I think pd for nap or quiet time every day and either do 10.5h nnd or 6.00 depending on wu. If im getting consistent ew cos she can't do more than 11.5/12h ons i can set bt at 6.30. Wdyt?
Wish me luck. She woke at 7.10 today so I can test the 10.5h nnd theory today and see how she gets on with a 5.40 bt!
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Good luck hun x
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Relinquishing control sounds very sensible, wish i could do that too! Good luck today. A 7.10wu is great going!
Wish I could see a pattern in DS, can't seem to get any consistently. Might post our wake/sleep pattern for the past week later see if any of you have any ideas.
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She sttn :D but wu was too early at 5.45 and she wouldn't resettle. I hope she naps today so I can push the day out a bit. I can't do a 10.5h day on a 5.45 wu!
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My LO has never done a decent Wu time after 10.5hr days... But sttn is great!!
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Hmm i get that she may not do longer nights but she cant handle a longer nnd. She will just have nws and still wake early ::)
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Ugh this transition sucks. I know I said I was going to try to relinquish control but its not easy when she won't follow the rules or any sort of pattern! She had a nap today 11.30-1, the same as a few days ago following nnds, so I expected BT to be same today too at & 6.30. Did she follow the plan? Nope. She fell asleep at 7.15! So now im worried she's going to have nws and ew like she was doing before and we're going to be in an ot mess again!
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I hear you loud and clear Aishi... Can only offer empathy and hugs. This won't last forever but some days do feel like a year! It helped me to know that there were others in the exact same position as me, and I'm not the only one going thru this. It is hard!!
Hopefully you mind find some inspiration in the fact my totally irratic, sleep fighter slept for 12.5hrs last night - totally breaking the rules but in a good way this time!!! After lots of EW (5am) and short ONS I feel like I've won the lottery today!!! He still had NW's but that's ok for now, I didn't have a stroppy toddler yelling at me that it was morning at 5am this morning - I feel like a new person!! Of course I expect for it all to go out the door again but I'm celebrating the win right now. :-)
Do you think this is a good time to nudge BT out a little? It almost seems like he needs to be totally exhausted to sleep a 12hr night... Was thinking 6.30pm? Instead of 6pm we've been doing?
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Oh dear see if it was me I would stick to 6pm thinking that last night was a cu night....what did u end up doing?
Hugs back x
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Still morning here :-) (New Zealand) So still unsure. Will see how the days go. I just think 6pm is a bit early now...
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What I've always found with my two that if I do pd too early they just chatter and sing till they ready to sleep. Does your lo do that? U could always pd for 6 rather than asleep for 6?
Pushing BT on the back of one good night has always backfired for me but your lo may be different...its so hard to know what tondo isn't it? :-/
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Yes sooo hard to know what to do!! My LO tends to go to sleep without too much of a problem. Might take a little longer but not hours... He tends to EW - but he also EW with OT so it's almost impossible to tell if d's OT/UT! Maybe split the difference and go 6.15pm :-P
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What did u end up doing?
Dd woke at 6.45 :( so not even a 11.5h night but still 13h TS with the 1.5h nap. Is this a case of nap robbing from night sleep? Wwyd?
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Dd woke at 6.45 so not even a 11.5h night but still 13h TS with the 1.5h nap.
see I think that's really good? Am I missing something? She did a 1.5 nap and an 11.5 night???
M had no nap at CM on Friday so we did 6.30pm BT and although she had a good night she was tired yday and to make it worse we had a BBQ to go to so no nap again but she slept well last night so fingers crossed she 'might' nap today. I still find it hard to know when to go for it re no naps and atm we just kind of go by the day and what we are doing and I still PD for a nap if we are at home so she still naps probably 4 or 5 out of 7 days.
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We went for 6.30pm which was the earliest we could do in the end, he was in pretty good spirits all day and it actually DID take him a while to go to sleep (30 mins) which I think was UT, not OT as he was happy enough.
I think 11.5hrs ONS is pretty good too! That's what we get on a really good night, and our nap is pretty much gone. I guess you could cap the nap a little shorter, see if that gives you a bit more ONS.... but 13hrs TS would be like winning the lottery here! ;-) Each kid is different though, of course....
Would love to work out a formula that works for a bit of consistency here still - confusing much!!!??!!
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Lol I guess it does look good. I'm just used to much more sleep from her and I was hoping for a later wu so I could do a nnd and later BT.
I should count my blessings tho. She did sttn!
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haha... yep! DS still rarely sttn..... Oh well, one day he will, even if he's 16 before it happens I guess. :-P
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I pd at 5.50 to be asleep for 6 but she didn't fall asleep till 6.15 so an 11.5h day. She seemed happy enough so I'm hoping she's not ot. Fxd for a good night!
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We got an 11.5hr night so I'm happy with that!! :-D One NW but not at 11.20... Did w2s so let's see if a few nights of that can help eliminate that habitual wake. :-D
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That's great news each! If you do w2s 7 days in a row hopefully that should.do the trick!
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Hang in there! I wanted to just let you know that I *think* (FX I am not jinxing it) we are almost at the end of the transition and there is light at the end of the tunnel... We did W2S for 5 mornings at 4am and it seems to have worked. At the moment we are doing BT 12 hours after WU and he is doing about 12 hour nights :) FINALLY! After about 6 months of EWs, short nights, capping naps, NWs, BT messing around! etc etc! We still have a very OT whiny boy most afternoons, but he seems to be a lot happier. Now when he has a nap, even 15 mins, it wrecks his BT and we get a short night again, so there is no looking back.
Just wanted to say, when your child is ready, it will get easier, you will find your routine again. Good luck!
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Yippee!!!! :-D Geeat news Bongabees!! I think we are just behind you... Last nap really messed us up for the next few days after, and finally we seem to be getting some ok ONS and a few nights of ebt seems to help him catch up on lost sleep. Yep still get a tired kid but he's handling it better.
What a marathon this transition is!!!!
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Yay bongabees! That's great news! Hope it lasts for you x
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Hello ladies! I haven't posted in a while. I see that some of you took the plunge and your kids are at the tail end of the 1-0. We seemed to have taken a step back. Since school started for my lo, he has been napping daily. We don't get high sleep totals,,but he seems much happier with a very short nap and later bedtime for now. He has been sleeping 9-7:15 with a 45 min nap. Even if he wakes early, I still try and keep the nap no longer than a hour or he will muck till 10 pm. One day he had a short night and I gave a 1.5 hour nap. He didn't go to bed till 10 and still woke up at 7 am.
We do skip naps for special times like parties or all day outings. We took him to the county fair on Thursday. He was fine till close to bed time. Then he got super cranky and whiny. I put him to bed at 8 and he slept till 7:15. 11-11.5 total sleep seems to be pretty common at this age, so don't worry if you get an 11 hour night sometimes. Our pediatrician mentioned that at 2 sleep averages 12 hours and closer to 3 it's more like 11/11.5.
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That's reassuring PineapplePrincess... We were getting 11hrs and still no nap (some days have been fairly quiet/indoors as it's winter here), but still no nap, so it seems like DS has made the decision that he's done! :-/
That's great if you are still getting a nap and good ONS!
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pineapple princess post got me wondering, how much total sleep are your LOs having and how old? Has there sleep increased or decreased along the 1-0?
My DD turned 2 Saturday and has only been sleeping 10.5-11.5hrs in 24hrs for the last 6 months. Shes now refusing naps 2-4 days in a row.
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2 and a half today, averages 12-12.5h in 24h, not napping now. Total sleep probably stayed relatively stable over past few months of 1-0, though some days was as short as 11h total then others would do 13h+ to catch up.
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2yrs 8mnths, sleeps anything from 10.5hrs (on a bad night) to 12.5hrs on an exceptionally good night. Averages around 11-11.5hrs in 24hrs at a guess. Quite up & down however. Hasn't napped in almost 2wks now...
When he was napping regularly (he stopped napping every day right about his 2nd birthday) he was doing 10hrs ONS + 1.5-2hrs nap, so still in the 11.5-12hr range back then. I guess he has decreased a little in the last 6 months or so?
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2.5 on the 17th but in early stages of 1-0. Before nap dropping was averaging 13-13.5h. Now it's 11.5-12.5h on nnds and 13h on nap days. Still varying a bit.
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M is 3 years 1 month and needs 12-12.5 in a 24 hour period. She averages around 12 I think with usually 1 hour in the day and 11 at night.
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Ugh dd woke at 5.15 this am :( we've been doing one nap day followed by nnd. It was working well. Yesterday was wu 6, nap 12.45-2 capped (had to be somewhere), BT 7.30.
Wwyd today?
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What time have you been doing BT on NND's Aishi? I'd still offer a nap on an EW, but capped still, and if no cigar then an EBT. I use my LO's moods as a guide also. ((Hugs)) I hear you on the EW's... they are sucky!!
My own news is that DS STTN last night!!!! (Excuse my excitement, but this is a rarity in this household, lol). He did 11hrs, 7pm-6am so I was actually really thrilled with that. And he's been good all day today, went for another 6.30pm BT, but seems after a low-activity day (weather here is rubbish at the moment) he tends to do 11hr ONS. So, I have my FX for another good night tonight!!!
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Yay for sttn rach!
Bt varies depending on wu. Its usually 11/11.5h after wu. What time would u do nap and BT today?
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I'd probably keep nap around the same time, maybe let her have 1hr then BT 6.30? In saying that, I'm not an expert on this. :-)
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So this is what she did today
Wu 5.15
Nap 10.30-12
Bt 6.05
She was in a horrendous mood all day and needed a nap so early. Hope it doesn't backfire. Looking back at my logs the last time she had early nap and 12.5h day she did I've 12h on so although today was a bit longer I really hope she will do same tonight.
Depending on wu I think I'm going to try for a late cn every day and do 6.30/ 7 BT. Im hoping a set BT will help her self regulate quicker so we can get through this horrible transition.
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Haribo, I wouldn't worry too much. We get 10.5 on a bad day too, but he is best with 11.25, which seems to be his average. He's 33 months. I can honestly say it fluctuates between 10.5-11.5. At first there was a big difference between the amount of sleep he did on no nap days as opposed to nap days, but we are still evening out at 11-11.5 for both. I wish he'd do 12, but it seemed to have stopped at 12 right around 26 months or so. After that it's been no more than 11.5.
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We are in almost the exact same place PP - same age too. We get the odd random 12hr but mostly 11 now.
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Rachsk8, I think it's totally age appropriate. :) i have some friends who have high sleep needs kids, but I know my kid has never been like that, so I can't compare. He's more lower/average but sttn, hardly any NWS (just like once a month) so as long as he doesn't wake me up at night it's all good.
The only think I fear is the transition to a bed, which I know most have done by now, but my kid is spirited so I will switch him when developmentally ready. He's also not potty trained yet, so that's going to be another sleep disturbance I'm sure. Not looking forward to it.
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Dd sttn 6.00- 7.15!!! It was obviously a cu night (she had a 1,5h nap). She really can't handle nnds but I don't know how to get her to nap :-/
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Just keep offering hun, and give her the control about whether she does or not :)
We used to give J 45 mins to an hour to settle, and if she didn't we just got her up. Now even though she's not napping she still has quiet time every day she's at home after lunch. She used to protest a bit but now really likes her 'quiet time bag' and will happily play quietly in her room for an hour or more. Gives us both some down time! Some ideas if you choose to go that route - colouring or sticker books, Aquadoodle, threading cards, Russian dolls, letter/picture cards, books, magnetic drawing board, soft toys.....it's worked really well for us so sharing in the hope others may find the same x
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Thanks hon. She does ok with quiet time she's quite happy to sing and play with her teddies for an hour or so but the other ideas are useful for when she gets bored of that!
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In desperation I went down the car nap route... Not for everyone though but it saved my sanity many a time when DS really really needed to nap but refused. I guess eventually they will catch up one way or another. They aren't super human. :-) Giving her control is probably the best way, but do what you need to do to keep yourself sane. :-)
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Oh and just as I thought we were doing really well, my wee man had a Spontaneous and complete meltdown at 5.30 tonight. :-( He seemed ok all day, so when DH told me I was a bit surprised. But guessing OT? I guess time will tell. FX he sleeps really well and catches up tonight...!!??
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Hmm I was thinking of doing this
Wu 7.10
Cn 3-3.30
Bt 7
So its still only a 12h day but hopefully cn would help keep ot at bay and prevent ew. Maybe do for a few days and then a cu nap like yesterday. Wdyt?
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Just a thought, may be completely different for your DD, but J was an absolute bear to wake after 30 mins. 15-20 no problem, and that seemed enough to get us to BT. Letting her have longer just made a very miserable little girl :(.
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Thanks Katherine. I've never capped that much before. The only time she took such a short nap was on a day out and she was fine after 20 min cn so I could try that. Dyt shell be ok on a 12h day with just 20 min? I'd like to use today's later wu to set BT at 7...
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Our days were normally 12h or so on that short CN :). Never did the CN in bed though, always in the car (if she'd take it) and so there was something to immediately distract her when she woke up. BT set at 7 sounds good, hang in there, you'll get through it x
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We haven't tried that short of a nap yet. I see us going down that route soon though. The shortest is 45 min, but my kid needs a 12.75-13 hour awake time if napping or not. I'd offer a 12 hour day if your LO needs one.
We got a good night of 8:45- 7:15. He took a nap at 1:45-2:30, so he'll probably fall asleep around 8:45/9:00 again. He played outside all day so I'm hoping that he'll be so exhausted by bedtime.
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Yesterday we did
Wu 7.10
She didn't nap in car but did at home so we did
Wu 7.10
Nap 3.30-3.45
Bt 7.30 she was asleep by 7 but ds woke her
She was bit unsettled and had one nw but slept till 7.40. I think k I'll stick with cn at 3.30 and 7 BT so we get some consistency until she has ot nws or ew then I can do cu nap. Wdyt?
Think I'll stick with cn 3.30-3.50 and 7 BT until she has ewu or really unsettled night then I'll know she's ot and I can do a long cu nap. Wdyt?
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Sounds a good plan Aishi x
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Wow 3:30 is a super late nap, Aishi. Is it because she sleeps such a long night? 7:30 till 7:40 ONS is a lot with a nap. I am jealous! Mine gets up around 7:15, but he goes down for his nap at 1:45 and i wake at 2:30. He won't fall asleep for bed till 8:45/9 though.
We got another fairly good night. 9:00-7:20. I woke him up at 7:20 because if he sleeps in later than that he won't go to bed till 9:30. Also, he has school today, so he needed to be up by a certain time.
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Don't be jealous PP :) yesterday was the first day I tried a short cn that late so don't know if its going to be a long term thing! She won't nap every day and if she does she needs at least 6hr after the nap to BT but that results in a long day and short night. Then she gets ot. I think she is ready to drop the nap but just not ready for long nnds (even 11h) it just leads to ewu. So I'm hoping a short late nap will keep ot at bay and push the day up to 12h iykwim?
She did cn 3.30-3.50 and I pd for BT at 6.50. She's been making happy noises so I can assume not ot. Asleep by 7.15
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Good luck for the night Aishi x
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Thanks hon. That was a good tip about 15-20 min cn :) she's fine being woken up. I'm not! Lol it feels so unfair to wake her so quickly!
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Hmm seems like she's not going to follow the plan...she sttn 7.15-6.15 so I thought she would do a cu nap today but she didn't. I'm thinking perhaps she was a bit ut as the total a yesterday wasn't that long...I dunno
Well she did cn 2.50-3.15 and I thought 6.30 BT so its still within set BT limits.
I guess there's not much I can do except keep offering nap and sticking to set BT till she gets used to this routine
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She'll get there hun :). And just when you think she has, she'll fall asleep in the car like DD did today ::) woke her after 10-15 mins though so hopefully BT will still be ok!
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Lol they certainly don't make it easy do they? x
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Does anyone not do a set BT but still go on total A time based on WU? Just thinking about PineapplePrincess saying her DS needed a 12.75-13hr day with or without a nap and wonder if my DS is the same?
He is still quite up and down and alternating between 10.75-11.5ht days and I'm wondering if a 12hr day is a little too short for a long ONS. Sounds like a long day for a 2.75yr old to me but who knows I guess! It's winter too so lots of indoor days meaning not running around outside and getting really worn out. Just a thought.
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I've only started to do set BT rach. Prior to this I've always worked with a times before and after nap as dd is so sensitive to ot...although I do think you can have a set BT and go on total a time to if you tweak the nap length....
So dd didn't fall asleep till 7! That was after a 25min nap so almost a 13h day following only an 11h night...seems too long to me but I guess I didn't have a say in it. Dyt I let her nap too long? Or she was ot? ???
I know I know I'm over analysing. *sigh* I don't know how to stop!
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I think our nap is pretty much gone... Bit I'm still here, lol, I think this forum is my security blanket. ;-)
I have overanalysed this whole process too. DH tries to tell me it's not a science but part of me thinks if I find the 'magic formula' then we will all be better rested and happier! I'm still looking for the perfect answer, but trying really hard to let go as there is only so much control we have over this and some kids do this transition harder than others.
I've offered the nap almost every day so he has the opportunity to nap (he has fought it tooth and nail a lot of the time) but at least in not double guessing if I should have tired or not.
It's a hard process, and sometimes a long one. In the early days I was capping nap to 1hr (never dropped much less than that it tried a CN) and BT 7pm, though he often took an hour to go to sleep on nap days. In the beginning he was doing long ONS on nap days but that changed over time til the nap was robbing ONS and now i can only hope for a 10hr ONS with a nap which makes for a OT day following.
The fact that you are here looking for ways to help DD shows me you are a thoughtful loving mamma who wants to do the best for your LO so she is well rested and happy. That's the best any if us can do. ((Hugs)) This too shall pass!
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Thanks rach. I'm not completely selfless ;) I need my sleep too! Plus she's a right bear when shes tired which makes life hard for all of us!
She sttn, did 7-7 :D I guess I'll have trust that she is regulating herself and will sleep as much as she needs to as long as I stay consistent!
Fxd the hard part is over
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Yay Aishi, stick with it and don't despair if you get some wonky days. After the sneaky CN yesterday DD went down as usual at 6.30 and woke just after 7am so fingers crossed she's caught up whatever OT had crept in :)
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That's great Katherine! J has always been good at regulating hasn't she? Hopefully shes all caught up on ot. Thanks for the support hon. It really makes a diff x
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Shes still taking ages to fall asleep :-/ I pd at BT at 6.45 and shes still singing (nap was 3.30-3.45). Dyt I should bring cn a little earlier or just go for 12h nnd since she's having 12h days with cn anyway...
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How'd it go today Aishi? If it were me I'd still offer the CN and not worry too much if she takes a little while to doze off at BT. I'm guessing it's a good sign she wasn't too OT? But you may find you need to just do a CN every 2-3 days if she consistently takes a while to fall asleep. Remember you're only a week or two into this, you both probably just need time to find a new rhythm :)
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Thanks for checking in Katherine :) shes still taming about half an hour to fall asleep. I did earlier nap today at 2.45 but she didn't fall asleep till 3 anyway and I capped at 3.20. It still took her till 7.30 to fall asleep. Dyt its ut or ot? She sttn so I don't think ot but how can it be ut on such a short nap :-/
Maybe it's just like u said and she's getting into a rhythm...I have to pick Z up from school setting in session on Tues so I'll have to do a nnd then anyway. Will just see how she gets on then ?
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Sounds like a good plan x
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Aishi, you're so lucky such a late nap doesn't affect bedtime. My Lo normally gets up at 7:15 and takes his nap at 1:45. We cap it to 2:30. Well yesterday my parents took him to a picnic. It was probably 3:00/3:30 when he napped in the car. I think he only slept an hour as my mom told me. He mucked around till 10:15!!! That's why I never give him a late nap because I know it will keep him up super late no matter what length. Anyhow, I woke at normal time to keep to his normal rhythm even though he hardly slept last night. He only did 10:15-7:15. Yuck. He did well with the no nap the other day but was totally wired that day because my mom gave him too much sugar. He slept about 11 hours that night. I'm only doing no nap days on days that we are out all day. He has a few birthday parties coming up at the end of the month and a festival next weekend, so those will have to be no nap days.
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I don't know about lucky...even with a 15 min nap its taking longer for her to asleep at BT. I thought she was ut from cn but she had a few ot cry outs. I'm hoping she will do a cu nap or I can see this going pear shaped again :-/
Sorry you had a rough night x
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Bloody He**...we are smack in the middle of dropping the nap and it's BRUTAL...
We are getting no nap days, V short nights, then some long nights, some late mornings, some V early mornings....
We are all over the map right now. Is this normal for dropping the nap???
Nursery has to offer a "rest period" so M will sleep most days - sometimes for only 20 minutes, sometimes for an hour and some days not at all...
Lord give me strength....
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Welcome to the madness MM. Yes its normal ;)
Dd napped today!! ::o ::o 1.30-3 wu was 7.15 so I figured she has been getting ot last few days. Should I stick to the set BT of 7 and expect it may take longer?
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I would, sounds like she needed the cu nap x
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Mattsmummy, yes that is all part of the process! If we give a no nap day it does not guarantee a much longer night sometimes. The other day he only did about 10.75 hours of sleep after a no nap day. I suppose in the end it should eventually even out. We kind of go all over the place sometimes. I still offer naps each day but I don't know when my LO will fall asleep at night. Most of the time he is down by 9 and up by 7/7:15 but there are some nights he decides that 9:30/10 is his bedtime and still gets up at 7/7:15.
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Dd did not have a good night despite the cu nap. She was asleep by 8 but had several ot co's. Up for the day by 6.20 :-\. I suppose I should just stick to the cn and 7pm BT?
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Thanks...good to know it's all part of the process.
We had a late night last night after an hour nap at nursery. Asleep by 8:50pm, but up for the day at 5:45am...Such a short night.
today should be interesting. going to aim for a bit earlier bt to try and keep the OT at bay...
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wow - interesting. No matter whether DD naps or not she will fall asleep as soon as she is put in bed...can make it hard to gauge her real needs!
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Ugh I messed up! Dd was supp to nap from 2.35-2.55 but I fell asleep and didn't wake her till 3.20! Goodness knows when she will go to sleep tonight! I was thinking pd for 7 and hope for the best?!
Becky- you're so lucky that M will fall asleep quickly at BT!
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Well today was unexpected
Wu 6.20
Nap 2.35-3.20 (I fell asleep)
Bt 7.15 (pd 6.50) quickest BT in ages!
Should I read anything into this? Guess it'll depend on the night....
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Lucky you! I think we are headed toward dropping the nap for good. Today he woke up slightly after 6 and went to bed at 9:15 last night. He took an hour nap at 1:30-2:30. I thought for sure that he would fall asleep much earlier because of the EW. It's 9:09 and he still hasn't settled down. The past few days we have been getting really short nights, like 9-9.5 hours when were were getting 10-10.5 last week. I have no idea if it's the heat or if this really means he needs to drop his nap. The few days he had NND he handled it much better than before and slept anywhere between 10.75-11.5 hours. He gets crabby around bedtime without a nap but at least he isn't falling asleep at dinner like he used to. We are almost at 34 months by the end of the month, so I am happy he held onto his nap till almost 3. I knew it was probably going to go by his 3rd birthday.
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Well she was up by 6 :-/
PP have u tried a late short cn to tide him over to BT? Something like
Wu 6
Nap 3-3.20
Bt 7
Then if he does 11.5h that will give u 6.30 wu and u could push day out slightly so
Wu 6.30
Nap 3.30-3.50
Bt 7.30
It may give u a later a wu...
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I haven't tried that yet, Aishi. Maybe I will do that every couple of days for a catch up nap. We did a NND today because he woke at 7:30. Usually he is up by 7:15/7:30. I don't know why he was up at 6 yesterday. Just an odd EWU. So maybe if he wakes at 7:15, then a short nap at 1:30-2:00 and usually put down at 8:00 to get an earlier bedtime. Earlier as in the 8's, not 9's or 10's as he has been doing. My guy doesn't need any more than 11-11.25 TS with a nap or without.
I'm thinking that the nap is just more of a hassle these days and causing him to sleep so little at night. That short night sleep really affects his mood. He seems much better with a longer consolidated 11-11.5 hours than a nap and short night sleep. He seems to have a little sniffle too so he might not be himself right now. I'm aiming for an 8:15 bedtime tonight.
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Interesting reading as always! :-)
Was going to ask if anyone had any ideas to get more consistent ONS apart from set BT? DS hasn't napped in 3 weeks now and does between 10.75-11.5hrs ONS. Even on shorter nights he won't nap but it's a harder day and needs more quiet time. 11.5hr nights are great - the next day is generally pretty good. I see your LO does the same PP - with or without a nap! I put him down a tad earlier tonight so he was asleep by 6.30pm (not in bed at 6.30pm) after a 5.30am WU.
He seems to do the longer nights every 2nd night, when he's really tired.... Maybe I need to nudge BT out a little later? Last time I did that (15mins only) he still woke early. I don't THINK he's too OT... He is definAtely tired (yawns and grizzles and is a bit of a grouch) but none of those crazy OT signs - touch wood!!! Just seems like such a long day for a not even 3yr old!!
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Well nights are getting shorter here :-/ I can't imagine its ut from a 15 min cn when her day is still 12.5-13h long. Yesterday she did
Wu 6
Nap 2.30-2.45
Bt 6.30 straight asleep (if pm a is any longer after cn then she gets ot and takes ages to sleep at BT)
Yet wu was 5.50! Today. Any ideas? I hate pre 6am WUS esp since ds is still waking at 5.30 >:(
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Rachsk8, yeah seems like your LO does the same as mine. There really is no solution I guess. I stick to no bedtime earlier than 8 pm because my LO will get up even earlier if I put down at 7:30. He did 8:15/8:20-7:30 today. I guess on NND we stick to a pretty much "set" bedtime anywhere between 8 and 8:30 so he'll get up no later than 6:45. I do notice that every second day he sleeps a bit longer too. Not sure why. I am going to try and stick with no naps the next few days to see how he handles. I just know not to keep him out in the car between 3 and 5 though. My parents did the other day and he was up till 10:30.
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7-6 last night with ot nws. Why isnt she tacking on to ns? Thoughts anyone?
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Aishi, does your LO usually do 12 hours total? Just wondering, because I would think 7-6 with no nap is pretty good ONS for most of us, but maybe your Lo needs more sleep. Mine does 11-11.5 ONS with no nap and that seems to be fine for him. We haven't had any OT Nws the past three nights. He is pretty much out cold till I wake him at 7:30. He probably could sleep longer but he needs to be up for school by a certain time.
It's Day #3 and my LO seems to be holding up ok with no nap so far. We'll see how the weekend goes. We need to take him to a street fair on Sunday so I hope he does alright with no nap that day. He did 8:15-7:30 last night which is good for him.
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I think Aishi's DD has historically been HSN so 11h is probably quite short for her - would you agree Aishi? Her behaviour is probably a better guide though - how's she coping? My instinct would be she's gotten OT given the speed of change from her doing good naps to pretty much no naps. Will she take an early cu nap, say 5h after WU?
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Shes always been HSN. Just before things got messy she was getting 13h TS. She actually fell back asleep yesterday so did 7-7.40. Had nnd yesterday and was asleep by 6.45. Up today at 5.50. Go figure
I hate pre 6 am wus. With ds waking up at 5.30 every. Single. Day. I'm just done with them.
Posted with Katherine. Yea her mood is def indicator. Shes easily riled when ot and has meltdowns at the drop of a hat which is why i dread her getting ot.
She took an early cu nap once but not again.
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She had a 13h day with 20 min cn and did 7-6 last night with few nws.
I'll try an early cu nap at 11 but if that doesn't work, any ideas how I can get more sleep in to her?
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If she doesn't take the cu nap at 11 I'd get her up after 45 mins or so, and then try again in the afternoon around 1/1.30. If she doesn't take it try the late CN (can you APOP this?) and just stick with the plan. I know it can take some kids a good few days of no nap/minimal nap before they realise and start sleeping longer at night. It may just be something you need to ride out :-\. You can't make her sleep yk?
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I guess i can't :-/ ive been trying to get her to go back to sleep for an hour!
I'll try the nap at 11 and 1.30. She wont apop but I can still try late cn in cot...
Thanks Katherine! At least its a plan!
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What was happening if you let her nap longer again Aishi?
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She doesnt do longer naps anymore but if she does Sshehe won't nap longer than 1.5h then needs 6 h to BT which is ok if she does an early nap 5h after wu otherwise its a 14h day and she does a short night again
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You'll have to cap then if she takes a nap around 1/1.30 - say 45 mins/1h
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Yeah we kept naps to 46-60mins at the beginning and it wouldn't effect ONS too much. Have you tried a nap every 2 days?
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Well she did nap 11.30-1.30. Longer than I expected but I guess she needed. Any thoughts what time I should do bt?
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Oh dear I thought the whole point of a catch up nap was that it was to make up for lost sleep so bt should have been same ish-7 pm. It's 8.05 and I can still hear her. That's over a 14h day.
Does this mean she's ready for nap to just go? Could even the cat nap just be making day too long so she's getting more ot rather than just getting rid of nap ct would?
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She's somewhere in the 1-0 for sure. You can try NNDs and see how it goes - you'll soon see if she's not coping.
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Yes think you're right Katherine. Was really hoping this was just dev stuff.
But nights can't get worse right? So I may as well try nnds and see what happens! She fell asleep at 8.30 ::) ::)
Wish me luck!
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Good luck hun x
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Aishi, I would try nnds then. If your day gets longer than 14 hours then nap is definitely causing OT and less sleep overall. This is where we are at right now. A few days ago he was waking at 7:15, napping at 1:45-2:30 and taking forever to go to bed at night. Some nights he was up past 10.
We are on day 4 of nnd and he is holding up ok. Last night he did 8:00-7:30 but the previous night he only slept 8:10-6:53. If we can keep our nights about 11-11.5 hours then I think sticking with nnd is the way to go. I put him in his bed about 8:10 tonight and he was out by 8:15.
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Ugh she did 8.30-5.45 ??? That's 11.5h TS with the nap but would you do a nnd (6.30 BT) on such a rubbish night?
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Do you ever try to resettle in the mornings? Not sure if you've had success with that. What time do you get her up and out of bed?
To be honest this is where I'd just stick to a plan, any plan, whatever you are comfortable with, but stick to it regardless of night length, WU etc. You can borrow ours if you want to :) WU whenever but not out of room until 6.30am earliest, try to resettle any EWs, quiet time around lunchtime, short CN around 3/3.30pm if struggling, BT 6.30pm. Expect to get some grumpy behaviour and some NWs for a while though......doing this we got an average of just over 12h sleep in 24h. My guess would be if you try if for a week or so and you're getting significantly less sleep than that, then she's not totally ready for all NNDs yet (given historically she's needed more sleep than J).
What do you think? Maybe you could even try BT earlier if she needs more than the 12h?
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I do try to resettle but it hasnt worked. I get her out of cot at 7 regardless of wu.
It seems no matter how I space out naps, cn, nnds she's not getting enough sleep so perhaps it is time to stick to something regaress of wu and night length like u said.
I think I'll go for nnds and set bt at 6.30 and see how she goes. It makes for a long day today but surely she will crash from ot at some point. Wdyt?
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I agree hun, bear in mind it may be a few days before the crash happens so stick with it. Hugs for this transition, don't think there's an easy or right way through for anyone xx
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Yup give it some time and stick with it. My new mantra ;)
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Ok new plan :)
She was a bear yesterday and i couldn't face a nnd so I ended up doing this
Wu 5.45
Nap 12.45-1.30 capped
Bt 6.40 (pd 6.25)
Anyway besides one early nw she woke at 7 am!! Woo woo (OTT but ds woke at 7 tooo for a change!)
So I think that I'll do same today if she naps:
Wu 7
Nap 2-2.45
Bt 7.30/7.45
And if she doesn't nap then I'll stick to 6.30 BT. Really hope this routine suits her!
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Here's hoping :)
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Thanks hon. I'm just glad she's had a cu night. She's singing in her cot and sounds sooo happy. She's very spirited and much easier to handle when well rested :)
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Hmmm so yesterday
Wu 7
Nap 2-2.45
Bt 8.10
Nw 5
Wu was 6.30 :-/ should I just stick with 45 min nap if she takes it?
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I would stick with it first then. If it's not affecting ONS too much then just offer it for a while.
We had an EWU today. 8:15-5:45. He had a wet diaper and we think the sprinkler system went wacky this morning as it was making a huge rumbling sound. He didn't nap today because his friend stayed till 2:30. If we offer a nap that late he's up till 10. So we're pulling through till normal bedtime. He seems to be ok. It is 7 pm right now and we have an hour to go.
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Thanks PP. We had a busy day so she didn't nap yesterday. Sttn 6.45-6.35
Ive realised i do this with every transition- chop and change trying to get most sleep into her and it takes forever to get into a routine!So this time for my sanity and to have some consistency for me im going to stick with nnds if she wakes at 6.30 and a capped nap if she wakes earlier with BT set at 6.45/7. (I know Katherine suggested something similar when I first posted but I always learn the hard way! Sorry Katherine!)
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;) lol!
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We were all over the place with bedtime at the beginning of this transition which was the wrong thing to do. We got as high as 13 hours and as low as 10. I realized consistency is better for him. Knowing how much sleep is enough for him is key. So he needs 11-11.5 hours. I basically wake him by 7:30 everyday. He's normally up by 7/7:30 anyway. Bedtime is no earlier than 8/8:15. This way he's consistently down around the same time each night and up in the morning at around the same time too.
When we tried to get more sleep out if him then the next night was super short. Then I'd have to throw a nap in. The nap days just seem to mess things up now so I'm sticking to no naps no matter when he wakes.
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I'm afraid to let go of this forum even though I think we might (possibly) be there.... Haha. It's been a month since the last nap and for the first time we seem to be able to catch-up from
OT with ONS. We are getting much less NW's and EW's (they do still happen but a lot less).
And my DS is handling a 12/12.5hr day without awful big meltdowns most of the time now.
My goodness what a long journey it's been! I can't imagine having kept my sanity without this forum and wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone who has offered help and support.
As I said I can't let go of this forum yet, incase my LO is killing me into a false sense of security and it's all gonna turn to cactus again any night, lol. But I hope to also be able to offer support to others going thru this journey. Hang in there, it feels like it is going to last forever, but eventually this stage too will pass! And what loving parents we are on here trying to do the bed for our kids by helping them getting the sleep and rest they need!
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That's great for you rach. I'm pleased there's light at the end of the tunnel!
PP I agree that consistency is key. Dd is doing nnds if wu is after 6.30 with BT set at 6.30/6.45 and 6.45/7 if she has a cn. Either way she's only averaging 11.5h ons which I know isnt enough for her. I've been tempted to chop and change things but I've stuck to the routine. I'm glad I did cos last night she did 6.30- 7.15!
I know we've got a long way to go but its nice to know that she will cu when she needs to!
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When you guys/girls give CNs, how long do you give?. It seems like a nap (45min or more ) makes our day over 14hr long. Which is fine on an EW, she can do NNDs happily if her day is 11hours. So we do naps on EWs, NNDs on late wake ups but have no idea what to do when shes inbetween the two, A NND results in meltdowns and becoming OT but a nap makes BT very late. Shes doing around 11hrs TS if that helps and is 24mo.
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We did 15-20 mins, no more.
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I tried 45 min but she was taking ages to go to sleep and still having short night so now if she wakes before 6.30 its a cn day and I do a late short 15 min nap with 6.45/7 BT. Nnds BT is 6.30/6.45
She asked to go to bed during routine today- that's a first! 7.15-6.30 I really hope she's beginning to regulate herself now
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At what time would you do a CN? ideally id like BT at 7.30.
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Aishi - how olds your DD? it sounds like we are around the same stage of the 1-0. We are also cutting 2yr molar which is not helping.
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She's 2.5 now. I usually allow 4hish pm a to BT after cn. Hth!
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we're ticking along here...seem to have gone from a 1 hour nap everyday to more like 3-4 times a week. She gets v tired though, I don't notice it so much in the day as she is pretty spirited but the next morning I do. I also find it hard to work out exactly how much sleep she is getting as she has a gro-clock and she is so good about waiting for the sunshine, we rarely hear her until 7am. We are sticking with the 6.30pm BT on a no nap day and a 7-7.15pm on a nap day.
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Dd is having a weird night. She's waking every 2h or so and singing. She doesn't need me tho. Has anyone else had this during 1-0?
I know she's not ot as she usually has crying nws when ot. Its very odd
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Dd woke at 5 today. She's got a cough and a cold. I *think*,she's gone back to sleep but if not what time should I give her a nap and for how long?
She's not had a nap in about a week cos she's been doing 12/12.5h nights and I've just set BT at 6.30
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Sorry didn't see this Aishi - what did you decide?
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Its ok hon. She went back to sleep from 6-7.30. She's poorly tho poor mite :( she's resting in my bed now so may want ebt tho :-/
ETA she's fallen asleep in my bed. Should I let her nap 3-3.30 and do 7/7.30 bt?
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If she is unwell, she will likely need the nap and I'd go for a 7/730 bt like you suggested. Hope she is feeling better after a rest...
We had an awful night last night. Bt was 8pm after an hour nap, woke up at 1230 and came into our bed. I put him back about 1am. He then came back in about 5ish and tossed and turned until about 630 when I'd had enough and got up...
He will be tired today I think...not sure about nap and bedtime....
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Thanks MM she wok herself at 3.15 thanks to noisy ds. Think I'll just pd normal BT at 6,30 and leave it up to her when she sleeps
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Aishi - I still haven't worked out DS's sleep needs when he's not well... we had almost identical day to you yesterday! We had a WU of 6.15am and a 1.25hr nap (he needed it, was coughing in his sleep and so it was not the best sleep ever) waking at 3.15pm but was still tired and yawning and bit miserable all afternoon/evening. I went with a slightly early BT of 6.15pm as I didn't see the point of keeping him up any longer - he was asleep by 6.30pm, then we had a NW at 3am for about 1hr - could have been him feeling feverish, maybe too much of an early BT, who knows! Gave some paracetamol and he eventually went back to sleep and was up at 6.45am. Sleep needs when sick are tricky IMO. :-/ Don't know what to do today, guess I will see how it unfolds. I'd rather he had too much sleep than not enough though I guess, so if he doesn't nap I will def keep to a earlier BT as in the past he often does need more sleep when unwell.
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I know it can be hard to get it right when they're poorly. She only napped 15 min cos ds and dn woke her ::) she was asleep by 7 so hopefully not too late for her.
Hope your lo feels better soon. I always find coughing is a bitch for keeping them awake! Have you tried giving him a spoonful of honey before BT. I did that today. I find it soothes them and coughing isn't as bad after having it...
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We have a homeopathic Honey based cough syrup that works wonders with M when he's got a cough/cold.
We have been having some tough days lately. Nighttime sleep has been anywhere from 9.5 ( :o ) to 11.5 hours, NW, EW and some terrible tantrums/meltdowns in the morning and late in the evening.
He just turned 3 last week so I'm not sure how much is sleep related and how much is developmental...the tantrums are bad though...not like I've seen before from him... ??? ???
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Hello,
Just thought I'd join you as 1-0 is kind of starting for us but I think will take some time, anyone here have a LO still napping at 4? We were on:
7am Up
2pm Nap (aiming for 45mins, sometimes took that long to settle, chatting and playing)
8pm BT
But since we moved the monitor into our room for new DD, we have no idea what DS is doing during nap time or when he gets to sleep at night! So we're doing (shifted for summer):
7:30 Up
2:30-3:30 Nap time
8:30 BT
This is with a gro clock, but the idea is to get him up after night/nap at the same time even if it means waking him. I'm quite sure he doesn't sleep all that time but hoping that he will self regulate and play quietly or sleep as necessary. Can't evaluate at the moment as we've had travelling, a late wedding, some days where naps aren't possible and nights where he's being woken by DD's crying, so we're adjusting the above to give him more time to catch up! No nap days we aim for a 11.5-12h day, this is where we're out or DS is at a party (very few of his friends are still napping!), he manages ok but does get very tired. At least he knows when he's tired and will sometimes tell us he needs an early night! It's often a different story at bedtime but at least we can remind him what he told us earlier in the day!
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Hey everyone! We have had an EWU (last Thursday) and last night an hour long happy NW. Those who mentioned singing for an hour in the MOTN it's probably a happy NW like ours. If he was OT he'd be crying in his sleep. Instead he wakes up singing Wheels on the Bus for an hour then goes back to sleep. He woke at 5:30 today and went back to sleep between 6:30 and 7:30. I really think I need to give him 13 hours awake whether he naps or not. On Friday he slept for 30 min in the car (I woke). He was up since 7:30 then went to bed at 9, so 13 hours awake time that day too. I need to remember that if he wakes up at 7, then bed is 8. If he wakes up at 7:30, then bed is 8:30, otherwise when I put down a tad bit early we get an EWU or long happy NW.
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I've been really lucky with this transition. Once I stopped chopping and changing her routine and dropped the nap ct she seems to have got over the 1-0 very quickly (about a month) BT is set at 6.30/ 6.45 and wu is anywhere between 6.30/7. She's sttn and averaging about 12.25 ons. Can't complain about that! Just hope I haven't jinxed myself!
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Hi everyone!
DD2 is 17mo, and we are really starting to have sleep troubles, so here I am because at this point I cant really cap her nap any more than I already am...
I have been capping her nap at 45min but with the 18 month sleep regression she has been having 1.5hr nws with a 45min nap. Yesterday she only took a 30min nap, and still had a 13hr day :o The same thing happened with dd1 right around 18mo, she went back to napping more reliably after the regression was done, but still needed no nap days. So here we are with dd2 :( It took about 1yr to get dd1 through the transition...hoping I can get dd2 through it quicker, I would much rather have no nap days than short naps and long days!
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Hi,
We've started the process of dropping the nap but think we are getting into a bit of a mess. Ds was 3 last week. He's always been pretty Lsn. For the last 3-4 months we've been capping the nap at 30 mins. At nursery this is around 1.-1.30 at the weekends it's often in the car on the way home from a play date so anywhere between 3-4.30. On the 30 min nap we were getting more sttn bt 8pm wu between 6-6.30 sometimes a little later which is a really good result for ds. After 2 years of 5am wus!!
Anyway dropping the nap seems to be leading to to with more nw and ew - 5am today!
Nursery are really keen to drop the nap as he takes forever to go down for the nap but they can't do it later due to all the other kids being up. He's never been very good at tacking on sleep just wakes earlier. if he gets 10.5 solid sleep then he's normally ok11 hours is a long night for us. Under 10 and it's grump city. Can feel us heading into ot/ut loops.
Any suggestions on how to play it very much appreciated! :-)
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Hi trinity33 - it's really tough. DS is a good sleeper but 1-0 took a while. DD is now in the middle of it and i am a bit clueless really as to how to deal with the end of it. We have had quite a few NND's recently and not sure if we are heading for a fall?? My issue is that even with a 1 hour nap I am not sure she is that well rested the next day - maybe day is robbing from night or maybe on the days she does nap we need to do a later BT. It's quite hard with her as she goes straight to sleep in the evening regardless so I can't gauge where we are at yk? Atm we are doing a 6.30pm BT and hoping for a 12-12.5 night but not sure when she wakes really as she is super brilliant with her clock and we rarely hear her before it goes off.
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Becky, we've certainly had day sleep robbing from the night with 1h naps, then we started capping at 45mins which did improve the night sleep and he was on a more even keel the next day. However this was with a monitor so we could tell how much he was sleeping, he would take longer and longer to get to sleep at nap time! Now baby has the monitor so we're doing it blind and he just gets a 1h window in which to nap, we get him up at the same time regardless and do an earlier BT if he didn't nap at all or we suspect there was very little sleep. He definitely needs a later BT when he naps or we get ut/ot. ATM we aim for 11h nights with a nap, which we suspect is 30-45mins (just a guess as he usually stays in his room until the 'sun' comes up), 12h nights with no nap, the next day I think he makes up for this by having a slightly longer nap, closer to 1h. I know he's older than yours but he's always needed shorter A times despite fighting sleep!
Trinity33, I haven't had to deal with nurseries, just a childminder who pretty much did whatever we asked. How many days does your LO go to nursery? Other than starting the day intentionally earlier to make the nursery nap effectively later (which I'm sure you don't want to do!), how early can you put him to bed on a no nap nursery day?
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Hi Becky and trimbler, thanks for posting.
Can't help admitting I'm a little jealous of your 12-12.5 hour nights Becky. C has only done 12 hours twice in 3 years!
He's normally at nursery 5 days a week, with exceptions when I can take days off, like today . He's just had his 3rd Nnd in a row and was falling asleep at 6 so decided on very ebt. He woke up at 8pm and has been wake for the last 25 mins and counting. I'm not holding out for a good night tonight!
On nursery days we get home about 6.20, then he has a snack. So somewhere between 7-7.30 is probably the earliest we can realistically do.
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we seem to have settled into a pattern of 2 NND's and then a nap day for now...
That's hard trinity33 with the nursery days, both mine have needed BT's of about 6.30pm when they first transition to NND's. Hopefully he will settle into it.
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Sounds good, Becky.
Trinity33, I agree with Becky, mine can do a 12h day now but when he first had to have a NND he would struggle to 11h. Is there any chance you could leave work early from time to time, even one day a week, so that he can get an EBT once in a while if he has to stop napping?
We tried 'quiet time' in room for the first time yesterday, which was interesting. He played a bit with a jigsaw and fuzzy felt for 15mins and then came in to us telling us what he'd done and wanting to come back and join us. We suggested he continued playing in his room until the 'sun' came up on the gro clock, which he did, although he did ask DH for some help with a jigsaw at one point. Bed 12h after WU, we're shifting back to 7-7 for term time so some instability there, also he does wake to DD in our adjacent room, so it's hard to tell how much the nights are related to napping or not. One trip to the loo during DD's 'dream feed' (which she had woken early for and cried), and a request for water (which we normally leave in his room - oops!) during her early morning feed, so she may have woken him both times. How do other people do quiet time in the bedroom, what age do they stop (or how long after stopping napping), and do you find you need a slightly longer day compared to when you're out and about without a chance to rest?
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Okay we are having real trouble here...
DS, who for the most part has settled to sleep quite easily, it now taking AGES to fall asleep, getting up out of bed numerous times, faffing about, and then only sleeping 8.5 - 10 hours per night.
He is still napping at nursery...
Is this OT or UT at bedtime or day sleep robbing night or a combo of all three??!?!?!?!
Thoughts?
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If he is still napping I would be inclined to say UT. That or a developmental leap.
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Yep, up to an hour at nursery ever day...
Should I have them cap it at 30 minutes or ask that they cut it out completely?
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What's his WU, nap and BT times? I'd tend to agree UT, with our DS we would continue with a certain nap length until it caused these sorts of problems, then move BT later by say 15mins until he had an 11h night, as any less than this would result in him being very tired the next day. Once the nap meant that he could no longer do 11h at night, we'd trim it by 15mins, bringing BT a little earlier again and then start the whole process again. Sometimes we would find that he'd take 30mins or longer to get to sleep, but then after moving BT 15mins later he'd actually end up getting to sleep earlier than before.
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Hi ladies, we're back ;D
DS seems to be trying to drop the nap completely this week! For the last 6? months or so he's been happily napping every 2nd day or so, now he's just suddenly not wanting to nap at all, and I'm in shock :o
I know most kids have dropped the nap completely by now so it's nothing unusual, but I don't know how to structure his day now to prevent OT, and when to have his dinner and BT ???
He was doing 7.30am - 6pm on a NND and 7.30am to 7.30pm with a 1.5 hr nap at 2pm-ish on a ND.
It probably doesn't help that he's been getting up later (8am) as nursery is closed this week so it's thrown the routine out a bit :( He doesn't go back until next Wednesday so I don't know if he'll go back to being more tired after being at nursery 5 mornings a week...
I know he's almost 4yo but he is very HSN and he will not cope with getting OT :'(
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Okay,
so M's schedule is as follows right now...
Not ideal but this is what it is...
WU - 6/630
Nap - 1245/1 for up to 1 hour
BT - 8/830
On the weekend, he usually won't nap or will only nap in the car for 15/20 minutes. On a NND, we can get him into bed around 730ish...
He has been mucking around at bedtime lately, getting up, having to pee, seeing shadows etc...
We are trying to be very consistent with his routine but it seem I can't get him down any earlier than 830ish...
I'm at a loss...thoughts???
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So is 8.30pm the earliest you can get him to bed because of work?
If he is not napping and up at 6/6.30pm I would have him in bed by 6/6.30pm. Is that possible? I think the general rule is to do 11-11.5 hours A when they first transition but I do more than that with mine as quite honestly a bT before 6.30pm is not do-able for us. So we set at 6.30pm for a NND and more like 7-7.30pm for a nap day.
Hedgehog - when H was nap refusing around 3 years (and I pretty much knew he was done with bed naps) I did an AP 30-35 min CU nap. Ours was in the car. He needed the nap but he would not take it at all..it worked for us until he completely dropped the nap at 3.5 but I was a SAHM mum at the time so could structure the day as and how I wanted/needed.
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Oh heaven's no...that is the earliest I seem to be able to get him settled and ready to fall asleep...
He is running around, full of beans all evening...
I'm wondering if there isn't a bit of OT at play too...
???
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well yes there is probably a bit of an UT/OT loop going on. Being up at 6/6.30pm and going to bed at 7.30pm would be way OT here but then if he is napping an hour quite a bit it might be hard to know what is going on.
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Mattsmummy, I would have thought you could try capping the nap to 45mins as a start and see if that helps with bedtime? Maybe try an 8pm BT with the slightly shorter nap, give it a few days and see what happens? Does he seem to do ok with a 10h night, or does he seem really tired the next morning?
Hedgehog17, hi again! Can you have a discussion with your DS about why he may need a nap from time to time? Having fought sleep since he was tiny, my DS does now realise that he needs his sleep, he may go crazy hyper before bedtime but some days he's actually told us that he needs an early night as he's tired, or that he needs his nap. I think they're old enough to understand the consequences of not getting enough sleep, as they see the effects for themselves. On the other hand, is it possible that he can do without the nap most days now, and just have catch up naps when he's especially tired? You could discuss with him that he may need to nap more often once he returns to nursery, so it doesn't come as a surprise? You could also introduce some sort of quiet time in his room instead of nap time, with the option to nap if he realises he's actually tired - we've only tried this once so I can't really advise here, but it may help him to get through a NND without getting OT?
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Thanks for the insight...
So, DH picked DS up from nursery today. He did not nap at nursery. They went for a haircut and he fell asleep on the car ride home. Slept for 25 minutes...
Just up now (just after 4pm where we are)
What time should I do BT? I don't reckon he'll be ready for bed by 8pm...
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Ooh that's always a tricky one! So he'd normally have about 6.5h after an hour's nap... this one was later but shorter and he'll probably be more tired because he was up for longer beforehand? TBH I'd just try for 8pm anyway, whatever happens you may at least find out whether to aim earlier or later if this happens again - sorry that's not helpful, but I would just think of aiming for somewhere in between his usual and NND BTs. 4h is still a reasonable amount of A time to BT I think, especially after a short, late nap? I'm pretty sure we've had something similar and it wasn't such a disaster!
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I would have done 8pm too - sorry prob too late!
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Hi trimbler!
Congrats on the birth of your DD :-*
DS hasn't car napped for a long time (too interested in everything out the window), so that's not likely to be an option. I work pt so am usually home in the afternoons - DS only does 5 mornings at nursery.
Interesting about how they are old enough to know they are tired - DS was saying that and wanting a nap / EBT before this week :) Now he's super-wired so I guess he's having a developmental leap / GS or somesuch ??? The thing is, he looks so tired with bags and shadows under his eyes :'(
Yesterday I asked him to play quietly in his room if he didn't want to sleep. He wouldn't!! He just screeched and howled until I got him. I then asked him to play quietly in the living room, so he continued to pester me but in a whisper instead ::)
I'm having thyroid issues atm which means I get bouts of fatigue and actually need to put my feet up in peace for a while or I start to get dizzy :( DS not resting / napping couldn't have come at a worse time :'(
I'm sure he'll be a lot better once nursery starts again, as he'll have other kids to play with so he won't be needing me all the time! He's content to play by himself for a while or watch TV for a bit after he's been at nursery - probably needs to unwind!
Just need to survive until Wednesday, then see how he goes and give him a nap / EBT as required...
Thanks ladies :-* :-*
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(((Hugs))) Hedgehog17, that sounds hard! I've noticed my DS has suddenly found loads of energy, maybe their age? I'm sure I read somewhere about a surge in testosterone around age 4, I'm sure I'm seeing this with mine! Two things which helped when I was feeling fatigued in early/late pregnancy: (i) he has a vet set, so I'd lie on the sofa and he'd check me over, give me medicine etc; (ii) when I could tell he really needed to run off some energy, 'Simon says, run around the coffee table 20 times', 'Simon says, do 20 star jumps',... you get the idea! And all from the comfort of the sofa :) I'm not very imaginative but I'm sure there are other things which take more energy out of him than out of you. Of course there's always TV/computer when you're really stuck, but that doesn't do much for his soaring energy levels! My DS certainly finds it harder to sleep if he hasn't used up his energy, maybe that's happening with yours? He may still be very tired but unable to settle with all that energy. Do you have a garden? At times like this I wish I did, although we are spoilt for parks, it's a lot of effort to get there when you're unwell. I know I'm going to struggle with his energy when DH goes back to work after his summer break (teacher), we'll have to have lots of sling naps for DD but I really do want one nap a day in the cot, and that's when DS will be stuck inside having to play by himself until I get her settled...
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I did quiet time with Henry for a good 3 months after naps stopped, I really needed that down time. He had a special quiet time box with activities in and I set his gro clock for 1 hour.
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Hiya. We did try a really ebt the other day 6pm but he slept until 8 then was up for 2.5 hours, full of beans. Like he'd had a nap and was ready to go again. He finally went to sleep at 10.30 and was still up at 6 the next day. So don't think that option is going to work for us.
I've had a chat with nursery and I think we've agreed to do naps a few times a week. He also seems to be gradually getting a better understanding of when he needs sleep, al be it slowly. He admitted that he was tired the night we did ebt. First time in 3 years!
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Thanks ladies :-*
Yes, definite energy surge here! He's wanting to do more wrestling too, so very likely testosterone related :P DS won't do a great deal of physical stuff alone - I have tried! - he prefers a playmate, which is fine if I have energy, but almost impossible when I don't. He went out for a run around the streets with DH yesterday before dinner, and he must have been running for about 1/2 mile in total :o
We do have a good-sized garden so I can get him to burn up energy there, but again he prefers a playmate so I don't get to sit down much. I am trying to get myself sorted out so that I can do more with him, and have promised he can balance bike to / from nursery when term starts again :)
We don't have a gro clock, but I could set the kitchen timer for quiet time. I think he would still yell for me and get bored with his own company pretty soon though :(
He's on to day 5 of not napping and he looks so tired :'( I am going to try putting him down tomorrow afternoon, fingers crossed he takes a catch-up nap!
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we have just done 3 NND's which I don't think has happened before...got her down today for her nap but she refused. Tomorrow will have to be a short car nap at best as have plans to see SIL so fingers crossed we can get her to nap Tuesday x
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Back again :P
we have been doing 45 min naps for a few months now and our nights range between 10-10.5hrs. He is still tired in the morning with bags under his eyes when he wakes and is grumpy when woken from his nap. EBT does nothing... he just rolls around for hours in bed. I have tried days of naps and NND in between but i think L likes consistency and it just throws him off not knowing what will happen next. Nights after NND range from 11-12.25hr. Should I just drop the nap at this point and set a BT? Will nights lengthen in time?
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MLL I found that a capped nap didn't help my dd either. She was grumpy with the shorter nap and was ew cos she was ot so I just dropped nap CT which suits her much better. She can't handle long nnds tho so day length is Max 11h which means today BT will be5. Luckily she does tack on and other days she had 5 pm BT wu was 7 ::O ::O. Yesterday she had 14h night and 11.25h day and It's been a few months now since we dropped the nap so she does tack on better now. I think that she could prob handle a longer day now after a 14h night as she didn't go back to sleep this am when she woke at 6- ut chattering from her. If she does another 14h night I'm going to try 11.5-11.75h day.
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How old is your DD Aishi? When did she drop the nap?
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She 31mo now and dropped the nap in June. I wasn't expecting it as shes HSN and was doing 2h nap but it was robbing from nihhtvand capping nap didnt help.
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DS took a 2.5hr catch up nap yesterday :D ;D 8) He looks so much better for it!
NND today, then will attempt a nap tomorrow as he should be tired from his first morning back at nursery... just to help I'm going to get him there and back on his bike and leave the car at home ;)
From next week he'll have an activity on Tuesdays and Fridays after lunch, and I'll take him swimming one other afternoon, so hopefully he'll be ok to nap on non-busy afternoons if he needs to!
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Would you say this is ut?
Dd wakes at 6 after a 11h night so I do 5 pm BT and she will then wu at 7. Yesterday it was 7.20. I did 7pm BT so 11h45 min day and she woke at 6.45 today but didn't go back to sleep which she has done when waking early on her long nights if that makes sense?
Should I have done a longer day yesterday?
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Aishi that's a great night, not quite sure what you're worried about ??? If she went down easily at BT and STTN perhaps she just had enough sleep by 6.45am. I don't really think there's a magic formula or a magic amount of A time to get to an exact 24h total of wake & sleep. We could do the same length day 10 times and not get the same length night. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear hun, I know you like consistency/predictability ;) but you've probably got to accept that variability is normal. She's a good sleeper, trust her to regulate if she needs more xx
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Lol I guess you're right Katherine. You'd think with two los I'd have learnt to let go of the control by now...
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My evil plan worked ;) He took a nap today ;D
I'm going to keep encourging walking or cycling to and from nursery, as it's definitely helping to tire him out physically!
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That's good hedgehog17, I find I need to tire mine out too to get the sleep he needs. How are you coping with all the walking though? Hope you start to get better soon!
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Thanks hon :-*
I'm ok in the mornings, as long as I can get a rest in the afternoons! I'm getting some help and support from a thyroid forum, have adjusted my supplements, and I seem to be stabilising :)
Unfortunately with adrenal fatigue and hypothyroid it's going to take 6 - 12 months to recover, as you have to build up the medication slowly :(
In the meantime I'm coping ok with the morning walk up, back, then up and back again with only slightly sore leg muscles to show for it ;D
Letting DS have a NND today, fortunately he's got a playmate (my boss!) so I can rest 8)
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I am a bit confused and dont know what to do... ???
We are on day 5 without the nap. Generally his mood is ok. We get a few meltdowns here or there but nothing major so far (although yesterday after a shorter night he was getting on my nerves all day!)
So the past two night we have been having NW, either CO or he has been up for a while. His top two molars are not completely out yet and i cant figure out if this is teething pain or OT setting in. These are the last 5 days or so...
I set BT for 1930, but did 1900 the first night because he was exhausted after a 10hr night with nap the day before.
01/09
WU 0700
BT 1855
WU 0720
02/09
WU 0720
BT 1925
WU 0700
03/09
WU 0700
BT 1930
WU 0735
04/09
WU 0735
BT 1930
NW 0450-0605 started as whining in his sleep before he fully woke, gave meds
WU 0800
05/09
WU 0800
BT 1930
NW 2230 whining in his sleep
2300 DM before i went to bed
NW 0330 whining in his sleep, tossing and turning
NW 0430 whining in his sleep
WU 0715
So what do you think? Should i be doing a nap on the 4th day or should i stick to set bt and no nap? The meds dont seem to be doing much which makes me doubt its teeth but actually meds havent helped much with molars at all so i dont know...
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Liam is lsn isn't he? If so those nights look pretty good. I would guess nws are ot creeping in so i would do nap on day 4 but only if it doesn't rob from night sleep. My dd is HSN and any nap was robbing from night so I had to drop nap ct. However I don't do set BT as she is very sensitive to ot so if I notice ot creeeping in I do ebt (10.75-11h day) luckily she tacks on tho.
Have u tried ebt at all? It took a while for dd to settle into nnds and to tack on but now she often has 14h nights.
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I think he is LSN to ASN (i still am not sure ::) ). The nights he slept 12hrs or more his mood was considerably better than less than 12hrs.
I have not tried EBT actually. He does tack on but not reliably... What time would you do EBT today then? He is chewing on his fingers all the time so i know he is teething, i just dont know if the NW are caused by that or by OT, yk?
A few months ago if i would do a NND and the next day a nap it wouldnt rob from his night and we could switch between nap and no nap, but now that things are further along into the 1-0 i am not sure...
I could try a 45 min nap today (although he might tantrum about going to take a nap after 5 days without one) but when should i do bt? In the past he has needed 7hrs A before nap and 6hrs A after a 45 min nap but after so many NND i dont know if i should stick to the same plan...
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If you do a nap day I would probably aim for BT half an hour later than normal...and BT on nnd 11h after wu. After so many nnds my dd would be tired enough to sleep after a nap.
Tbh tho I still go by a time as it suits dd better. Yesterday she had 12h20min day after several 13h+ nights (as 11h days meant she was waking after 12h night) so she did 5.50-6.10. She had a few nws and i had to resettle at 5 as she was little ot and shes still asleep at 7.50....they're all so different tho.
Iiwm i would try ebt rather than nap but that's cos it makes judging BT a pita!
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Yea just ignore what I say. I completely misjudged dd yesterday. She did 7.50-7.45 BT had nw at 4.30, 5 and ew at 6.30 :-/ this on the back of a 14h night so u would think another 12h day would be ok. go figure
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Haha Aishi!! These toddlers are a mystery, arent they?
Yesterday we dis a nap as he was exhausted!
WU 0715
Nap 1410-1500
BT asleep at 2030
STTN withhou CO (yay!!!)
WU 0700 >:(
So now i can see he is a bit tired from the shorter night... So confusing! He STTN but is tired because the night is short... What to do?
I guess i will try 3NND and a nap on the 4th day for a week or two and see how it goes...
I think the problem is a mix of OT with teething because i checked his molar yesterday and it has cut a bit a bit more in the last day or 2. He has a history of EW because of teeth and nothing helps it...
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Ugh I hated molars. Such a relief when they all came thru!
Liam's TS was just under 11.5h. Is that normal for him? You could try a 30 min nap and BT a tad earlier and see if he has more overall night sleep? Otherwise plan sounds good :)
I'll be doing 5.30 BT to get back on track ::)
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His TS was 11hr15 which is not enough for him. He needs 12hrs at least to be well rested. Oh well... Nothing much i can do about it...
I have tried a 30 min nap and it was a disaster! We cant go below 45min or he is a bear when woken.
I hope you can get back on track quickly and that Liam's are theough soon. I am officially sick and tired of teething!
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Hello! I hope it's okay to hop on this thread as I believe the 1-0 is upon us! :P
DS will be 3 in less than 2 wks; he's been a great napper until last weekend when he did not nap for 2 days in a row. He napped the whole week at daycare this week (he is in daycare M-F). Yesterday (Saturday) he took 50 min to fall asleep at naptime (my plan was to get him up if he didn't fall asleep within 1 hr), he slept 1 hr 20 min, and then spent the night at grandma's last night and didn't fall asleep until 10 pm! I am picking him up today at grandma's and am hoping for a car nap on the way home.
This could be developmental but I am pretty sure we also entered the 1-0, as DS is also LSN/ASN. I have a feeling he will continue to nap at daycare (much more stimulating environment than home) but naps on the weekends may be a thing of the past. Is that okay? He seemed to handle his NNDs last weekend just fine. Was thinking I could continue to offer naps on weekends if we are home, but if we are out and about to not worry about getting home for a nap. Do you think that sounds like an okay plan for now? (I know "plan" is a laughable word during transitions ::) )
Hoping y'all will be able to help me through this transition, and I will do my best to support you too! :)
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Hi oliversmommy!
At the start of 1-0 for us, we would find that there were some days when a nap wasn't possible (he's never napped out since he was about 5mo in the sling, besides car naps on long journeys!), and we used those days to guage how ready he was to drop it. It's lovely now that we know he can manage a NND when needed without falling apart, and it sounds like yours can too :) But atm he can't do two in a row without getting really tired during that second afternoon, although we have to do that again this week so we'll see what happens...
How much A time does yours have in the morning? Whenever ours struggled consistently to get to sleep at nap time (I've done the same - he's chatted/played with his stuffed toys until I was about to give up, before going to sleep!), we would gradually extend the morning A time, which would certainly help - not sure how much choice you have with daycare?
Also wondering whether being at grandma's was too exciting/strange and that's why he didn't get to sleep until really late?
Your plan sounds good to me, just watch for naps robbing from night sleep to the extent that he's too tired the following morning after a short night. Ours needs a good 11h at night ideally, although he can manage a few shorter ones without too much trouble - we've shortened the nap whenever his nights got consistently shorter, to give him more night sleep. How long are your DS's naps usually?
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quick question...
how much sleep is your LO getting in a day right now...
M is dropping his nap and is only taking about a 40/45 minute nap during the day and only getting about 10/10.5 hours at night. If I try and get him down earlier, its BT antics all around and it ends up being later than usual...
thoughts?
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Ugh i jinxed myself. I havent been able to get back on track after that 6am wu. I do 11h nnds and she sttn till 6 but then I'm stuck with 5pm BT! She had a shorter day today after a short night (5pm BT tho) vibes that she has a mammoth cu and I can get out of this rut!
MM- my dd is almost 32mo and her TS varies between 12-14h depending on whether she is ot or not
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Hi all! Not sure if this would be considered the 1-0 transition or not. I'm a bit lost! My son still seems to need a nap but always says he doesn't want to take one. He's always been the type where we needed to push the nap later when EW's and shorter nights started. I've also been capping the nap on days where he doesn't wake himself by 4:15 or 4:30 pm. He falls asleep for nap around 2:30. I've been getting EW and short nights, waking before 7 am after falling asleep between 8:30 and 9:30. The past two days I pushed nap later (2:45) and he had longer naps and shorter nights. Wondering if his day sleep is robbing night sleep and I need to cap it at 1.5 hours or less? Any guidance is much appreciated!
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I dont really know where we stand at the moment...
This last week DS has been sick so we have been back to doing a nap everyday as he needed the sleep. He has been on the mend the past two days and we are now back to shorter nights again. Today he woke at 720 and it was so nice out so i took him to the zoo .he didnt nap but was begging to sleep at 1630. I didnt know what to do really and by the time i got dinner ready and gave him a bath and to bed he was asleep at 1830.
I dont know what to do. Should i go back to set BT and do a nap every 3-4 days or maybe i should actually be going by A times as he doesnt seem to do too well with set times right now. If so, i have no idea how much A i should do... Today was 11hr15 A. He opened his eyes at 2045 (i have a video monitor), rolled over and went straight back to sleep. Then at 2210 he rolled over and said something as if sleep talking. Is that considered an OT NW? He obviously didnt cry or anything but normally he would never do that on a day with a nap. Should i do a shorter A time? I am a bit worried about getting into a loop of 5-6am WU...
I kind of feel lost as to how to go back and forth between nap days and NND. He doesnt seem to tack on on the days we do a nap even after a few NND. I thought he would be more tired after a few NND and would have a longer night even after a nap.
I am so bad with transitions! Ugh...
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we're having a hard time :(
M is OT right now and we are having early night wakings and some EWings too.
I am going to get her to nap today whatever even if I have to AP!
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Hi all!
Hugs Becky no one likes OT! But it always passes in the end, right? I'm afraid that's all I can say... We were out at a late wedding on Saturday and didn't get home until almost midnight, on a day when DS woke at 6am due to DD and couldn't nap due to travelling! I hardly know how I lasted that long, let alone him!
MLL - could you maybe have a set BT for nap days a little later than for NNDs? I think that could have been a little OT but not seriously so, unless you also had an EW?
Tabathagucci - welcome to the club! I'd definitely start capping, sounds like 1.5h could be a good place to start. That nap sounds pretty late to me, we also had to move ours later to a point, but stopped at 2pm with 7am WU. I can't help wondering whether your DS needs a shorter, earlier nap in order to have more A time to BT? E.g. Try going back to 2.30 nap (or earlier if you think he would get to sleep?) but cap at 4pm. Then maybe try for an 8pm BT? He may even be tired sooner due to both the shorter nap and the earlier WU from the nap. It does sound like naps robbing from nights to me.
Aishi - is she consistently doing 6am - 5pm days atm?
MM - is your DS really tired on that amount of sleep? If not I'd try not to worry, I think TS can tend to increase a little with a NND or when they drop the nap? Always did when my DS dropped a nap with each transition. Mine is 'offered' 12h TS whether or not he naps, but actually sleeps more without one. If your DS does seem really tired it might be time to cut the nap further or introduce some NNDs, what do you think?
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She was doing 5pm to 6.30/7,but then got cough and couldn't sleep so wu creeped earlier. She's been waking at 5.45/6 this week so I've had ridiculously easy bts ::) she can only handle up to 11.25h nnds which means I have to do such early BT or she has ew from ot anyway and is much harder to handle!
I did a capped nap yesterday to keep to an 11h day and to push the day out a little and I *think* that's fixed things somewhat so she did
Wu 5.50
Nap 1-1.30
Bt 5.30
She woke at 6.35 but has gone back to sleep :D so at least 13.5h TS inc nap. I think I'll try this again to push day out more. Ideally I'd like 6.30 BT...
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Thanks Trimbler! Holy cow that's a loooong day! But yes, OT always does pass. :)
I have moved the nap back to putting him down between 2 and 2:15 so he's been getting to sleep before 2:30 now except for today, it'l was 2:35. Seems like things have gotten a little better, although still sleeping between 11 and just under 12 hours total. He is in good spirits so I guess he's doing ok! Thanks again! :)
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Hi Ladies! We have been going back and forth between nap days and NND. L has been doing 11.5-12.5hr nights on NND and 10.5 on nap days. Yesterday we were invited for a BBQ and by 5pm L was exhausted! We left and he fell asleep in the car at 520, transferred him to his bed and he slept through until 520am. While he was waiting for his gro-clock he fell back asleep at 645 and woke at 820!!!!! 13.5hr night!! :o :o :o
So now what? I am so happy he is so, so rested now and obviously this calls for another NND but i have no idea when to do BT now! I obviously dont want him to be UT at BT after such a long night but also dont want to do BT too late as that was obviously a CU he really needed! WWYD?
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MLL - I'd just put him to bed at the usual time you'd do on a NND and see how he goes...
Well ladies I think we've now dropped the nap completely here!! :o
He hasn't napped since the day before his 4th birthday, is currently doing 11.5hr nights, and seems to be coping well - lots of energy, good mood etc :) DH tried to get DS to nap yesterday afternoon as he was yawning and seemed tired, but 20 mins after leaving him in his bed, DS was up and yelling from the top of the stairs that he needed to pee..! DH took him to the toilet, then popped him back into bed, and 10 mins later he was at the top of the stairs yelling again ::)
I think I've adjusted now (that was harder! ;) ) and am planning stuff for the afternoons when he isn't doing his music or his playball class. Sometimes we'll be at home, other times out, but it's flexible and he can chill with a book or some TV if he needs to ;D
Thanks again for all the support, advice and hand holding :-* :-* :-*
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Usual time without nap has been 630 lately. Isnt that too early???
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If he's showing tired signs, go with 6.30. If he isn't, try 7 or 7.30 but no later :-*
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Ugh 1-0 is getting ugly again :( we've dropped nap ct for a while now and have been doing 11h days but wu is early so bt is early and I'm getting stuck in a early start rut.
Mon wu 6 and bt 4.45
Yesterday wu was 6.30 and bt 4.45
Today wu 5.45
She can't do much more then 11h Nnd as she gets ot. I pd for bt too early yesterday I forgot what time she'd woken!
Any ideas how to shift day forward? Cn just leads to later night and ot
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4.45pm? Hun you can't expect a decent WU time on a regular basis with a bt that early :(. You've got to save that for complete and total utter meltdown days, not just early morning days. That's the problem with sticking to a set day length, sleep needs are not exactly the same every single day so each time she does a slightly shorter night then your day will get earlier and earlier. This is another time you're going to have to face the fear of OT again ;) and just put bt back in a sensible place and let her work it out. If you think she needs a 13h night then set BT at 6pm, don't move it, and don't get her out of her room until 7am in the morning. Get her a Gro clock or similar to reinforce morning WU time x
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Aishi - it really helped with dd1 when I finally just set bedtime at 7pm and let her regulate. I wouldn't even consider putting her to bed early unless she was a massive disaster.
DD2 is well into her nap dropping now! I am usually forcing a catnap between 2 and 3pm at some point, sometimes it's in the stroller because she has really started physically fighting nap (and I have the sore muscles to prove it!). So her day looks like this:
6:30am(ish) Wakeup
2:30 - 2:50 Nap (at the latest, sometimes earlier)
7pm(ish) Bedtime
I feel like the cn is really helping keep her from getting ot, and it was something dd1 never would have fell for so I am sticking with it!
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Thanks ladies! I think youre right! Im driving myself crazy trying to get her into bed and keep ot at bay! So i took your advice and did 6.30 BT so evenings can be less rushed and she can spend time with ds after school too!
She fell asleep as normal and didn't seem ot so I guess I'll find out tonight!
Tink that's great your dd can take such a short cn. It just made things worse with dd so we went CT.
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Yes, the cn is a lifesaver so far! With dd1 it was nap or nothing, no in between, but dd2 is quite content to cn.
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Hi all, we've been without the nap now for a couple of months, except for times of sickness (winter here so has been a bit of it), but still have our ups and downs. Last night we had 2 NW's and today LO has fallen asleep in the car (he hardly ever does anymore). Do you think after so long without a nap this might be a catch up after the illness? Would you still cap? He seemed happy enough today so I'm a bit surprised he fell asleep. Has been a fairly quiet day without running around too much so not sure what to do here! Wake him after 45mins and then make BT 30mins later than normal?
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Ugh i think later BT has backfired :( she's had a few brief nws and has been awake from 3.30. Its 4.05 now!
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Oh no, here's hoping she goes back to sleep soon.... From what I've read it will probably take a bit of an adjustment period to move BT. Perhaps start in small increments (15mims) every few days so it's more gradual? That doesn't help you right now I realise. :-(
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She went back to sleep at 4.30 after chattering for an hour...she's never done that before since nap dropping ???
Wu was 6.40 so should I stick to 6.30 bt or move it gradually and do 6pm today?
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I'd do 6.30pm if it was me, I find just sticking with it and pushing through is the best way to get things back on track. You may well get a few NWs for a bit but hopefully she'll start to sleep in a bit then her day will be shorter x
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I agree Aishi, just plough on with set BT and she'll get there in the end... Hope today isn't too awful after that night.
Rachsk8 - sorry bit late now, what did you do? I'd have capped but prob depends on your LO.
Tinkerbell99 - amazing that your DD2 is on 1-0 already! My DS had only just done 2-1 at that age and still naps most days! Glad the CN is working for you, just as long as you're sure it really is 1-0 and not 18mo regression? But if all else is ok then great!
I really don't know where DS is with this now, kind of miss the days when we had the monitor in his room, but it seemed silly to buy a new one for DD when he was almost 4, so now he has no problem coming out of his room when he needs us, before he would call out. Still offer a nap at the same time each day, I often go past his room to get DD down, only to find the door wide open, various toys moved into the hall and him fast asleep! So he evidently plays for a while but that's fine by me. Whether I wake him or not depends more on what DD is doing and whether I have to do both BTs solo, than on whether I think he needs it or not. He has a gro clock but will often just leave his room as soon as I've started on DD's nap, as he knows he'll be able to play with the ipad when I'm not there! Nights are similarly variable, sometimes he wakes to DD, sometimes to go to the loo (not yet consistently dry at night, and has wanted the security of pull ups again recently), then if he wakes early and sees that I'm already up, he'll just come in and join me, I don't put up much of a fight any more as I suspect he just doesn't really need that much sleep. But I'm reluctant to get rid of naps completely as that would bring BT early which is more difficult with DD especially if DH is home late... So poor DS's 1-0 seems to be dictated more by DD than by himself. But he's not overly tired so I'm not overly worried, guess my sleep focus has shifted now!
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I tried waking him but he wasn't having a bar of it, I managed to get him up after about 1hr 15m and it was a later sleep time tonight (as expected) but he was out by 9pm so let's hope for a 10hr ONS! Thanks. :-)
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Aishi - I would probably be guided by her mood a little. If she's simply not coping I would go for an earlier BT, and move slowly, but that's just me. :-)
Trimbler - sounds like a pretty good situation to me.., your DS sounds like he can self regulate and listen to his body.
Tinkerbell - the CN later in the day worked great for my DS also. Once he was out of the 'habit' of his nap it became a total battle I wasn't prepared to tackle every day so we 'forced' a nap in the stroller or car also. Saved my sanity and got him thru a rough transition that started just before he turned 2! Now at almost 3 we are finally done (I think, lol)
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Trimbler - yes, its definitely the 1-0 :) She has always been very very low sleep needs. When I transitioned to 1 nap she only ever slept for 1.5hrs, never got those long 2-3hr naps :( She drops her day sleep by 30min every few months or so...1.5hrs day sleep at 12mo, 1hr daysleep at 15mo, now down to 20-30minat 18mo. I dropped the nap completely at 18mo when I was a toddler, so I completely expected this and am not surprised at all (although I realize it is quite unusual and is probably quite a shock for everyone elseto hear that she is dropping her nap!)
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Hmm now I remember why I'm so wary of the dreaded ot with dd...she only had a 11h night thanks to that 1h nw and she was a BEAR all day...meltdowns and tantrums over everything :(
I ended up having her asleep by 6 :( thanks for your advice but I think I'm going to have to wait for a normal night length for her (13+h) and then try to push bt fwd a bit :-/
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You know her best hun xx
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I feel your frustration Aishi - OT is the pits but when they get to a certain stage it's a total gamble whether to try for a nap (and how long?!), and EBT or keep a SBT... I'm still confused over ERO the past couple of weeks as it's been all over the place, we are back to falling asleep in the car, complaining of being tired (hey at least he's starting to listen to his body, right?) and some long ONS thrown in for good measure!
As I've had a throat infection, I'm wondering if he's coming down with something too, as we had phased out the nap totally over the past couple of months, and doing pretty well, now we've had a nap every week these past few weeks?!
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Not sure if this is the right thread, but wondered if anyone has any ideas?
DS is 3 next week and for 2-3 months we were doing well after he finally seemed to transition to no nap. We were getting 11.5hrs ONS give or take. He will sometimes throw in a 12-12.5hr ONS and/or an 11hr night. 3 weeks ago he started seeming more tired than usual, complaining off bring tired, yawning etc and he's has several times where he's dropped off to sleep in the car again. (At the end of the 1-0 he was virtually never sleeping in the car, even when I tried for a catch-up nap in the car in generally failed, which is when I figured we were done totally with the nap).
Now if I let him have an uncapped catch-up nap it seems to effect his ONS - couple of times I let him sleep til he woke (about 1.5hrs) and moved BT 30mins later and once he did an 11hr night, next time he only did 10hrs ONS. Next time I woke him at 60mins and moved his BT 1hr later. He did an 11hr ONS that time. He can handle the NND it seems, but I'd expect he'd do a longer night after that, but seems not?
When he did the nap and 1hr later BT (made BT 8.30pm) he was asleep by 9pm and Wu was 8am. Then I went back to normal BT of 7.30pm and he was asleep by just before 8pm and Wu was 7am next morning.
He 'was' doing a minimum of a 12hr day when we were ticking along nicely. Do you think the 11.5hr day wasn't long enough?
Things that have changed:
- we have gone into daylight savings. But - I haven't changed his schedule, only the clock. Eg: his BT was 6.30-6.45pm (which is now 7.30-7.45pm) I've re-set BT at 7.30pm and now his earliest Wu seems to be 7am (prior to the clocks changing that was 6am). Iykwim?
- he's had a couple of minor colds... I have a horrible throat infection and cough which has been going on for weeks now, I wondered if he was fighting some bugs but surely he would have come down with it by now if he was going to?
Last night after a 7am Wu I brought BT slightly earlier incase he was OT. (Had a couple of meltdowns in the morning which were a bit out if character, but who knows if this is tiredness related or just part if being 3?) He seems to be happy enough at BT, and took him about 20mins to go to sleep.
To add to this, he's been yawning more lately (especially when we are out in the car, as he did this morning on his way to my parents place), looking a bit zoned at times and having some NW again. Sometimes they are an easy/quick resettle, sometimes he's quite upset - bad dreams? He WAS sttn finally, after he dropped his nap. So I'm confused about this wee regression.
Any thoughts? Growth spurt? Developmental? Schedule problem?
Would you offer a nap every few days again? Cap it at 1hr? What time should I do BT on a nap day?
Wish I could find a copy of my toddlers instruction manual! ;-)
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Ugh rach sounds like the poor thing has a lot going on! I would stick with the 12h days if that's what worked best for you if its dev/ regression which is poss at 3yo. If he's poorly tho and needs cu nap I would offer quiet time and let him nap if he wants to. Sorry not much help :-\
So we were doing well with 11h nnds and 13+ h nights but I think that she needs longer days cos of those chattering nws and/ ew...I'm not sure how to fit that into set BT tho ???
I want BT to be 7/7.30 since earlier BT means that on short nights we have 5.30 wu...so yesterday I did 6.30 BT and she sttn without a peep except briefly at 5.30. Wu was then 7.30 :D so in order for her not to be ut should I do a 13h day again and 8.30 BTor just set bBT at 7.30 and let her self regulate? I don't like not having the control tho lol
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I think jumping from 11h days to 13h days is a lot.....if she woke at 7.30 today I'd probably do a 7/7.30 BT and just move it gradually to where you want it to be x
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I've been really MIA but have been reading everyone's comments. We are totally done with the 1-0 it seems and my lo will willingly still take a nap but for every 30 min he naps, he ends up staying up a whole hour past his bedtime or sometimes even more! Then he really cuts his night super short (9-10 hours). Since putting him in preschool three full days, he has fallen asleep a few times there and ended up going to bed at 9:30/10 and still woke at 7. I asked his teachers to let him do quiet time in the other room with a DVD or toys.
I'm so jealous of all of you who get 12-13 ons. It was only like that for us in the beginning of the 1-0. We get 11 hours max now, sometimes 10.5, but my kid is lower sleep needs. Our days were at 12 hours but we started to get happy night wakings. Then I increased to 12.5. When I started to get nws again, I increased his day to 12.75-13. 13-13.5 seems to work for him as well as an 8 pm set bedtime. We have had this schedule since about mid July and it seems to be working. He usually sleeps 8-7 or 8-6:30.
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Joining in too... Another very lsn LO here at the start of the 1-0. It's coming out in EWs for us - exactly the same as it has for all his transitions. He's currently only taking a 40-45 minute nap if I leave him to sleep, but we only get short nights then. I'm currently trying out capping at 30 minutes to see how that goes. Oh, and lots of physical activity. We're getting nap refusal about once a week at the moment. Not quite sussed how to handle NNDs with him yet, cos he doesn't really tack on so I think I need to stick with set bedtime and only do half an hour earlier if he hasn't napped. We don't get any long nights (11.5 hrs would be mega here), so SEBT doesn't really work for us.
Quite looking forward to the nap going, though can't quite believe we're here... Though I've been convinced for ages that he'll be completely nap free by 2 yo, so I guess it has to start sometime!
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Welcome LL&J!
DD2 is still doing a cn in the stroller most days. She absolutely will. not. nap. in her room. She goes bananas! So right now, she wakes at 7am, does a cn from 2:30/2:35ish-2:50, then bed around 7:30pm. If she has a day that she actually does need a nap, she has a horrible night...I'm usually up 3-4times with her overnight if she has proper nap, so I'll take cns over that any day!
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M now naps Wed and Sat for up to 1.5 hours and does not nap the other days...she def still needs the odd nap, she gets OT pretty easily and by Friday which is her day at the CM she is shattered. We are getting BT issues which we have never had and more on NND's. Some of it is OT and some of it is developmental I think.
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Lovelylilyandjack, your lo isn't even 2 yet? Did I read that correctly? Wow that's pretty early for the 1-0, but not unheard of. My son had some play group friends who ended naps before 2.5. I am happy my lo lasted till almost 3. I'd say naps officially ended late august, so about a month and a half before he turned 3. He does get crabby around 3-5, but we pull through. If you have an lsn child, then a set time for bed is better. We tried super early bedtime in the beginning and it only worked for two weeks. We got lots of happy night wakings if he was put to bed too early. I aim for 13-13.5 hours awake now and it seems better. He is asleep by 8 and up by 6:30/7.
I am a teacher and some kids in my class who are 8-9 years old sleep around 10 hours a night. I doubt my son will be sleeping that much at that age. He seems to take after me. I'm fine with 7-7.5 hours of sleep. My husband needs a good 8-8.5 hours. If I get more than 8 I feel way more tired. Last night I fell asleep before 10 since I took the flu shot and woke up at 6:30. I have been feeling sluggish all day even after working out.
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Yes, he's 19 months now. He's very lsn, the same as Tinks DD2. I'm not really surprised we're here - my daughter is slightly lsn and stopped napping altogether by 2 and a quarter. Jack dropped to one nap about 3-4 months earlier than her so it's not surprising he's dropping naps altogether a few months earlier too. I agree with you on SEBT - it doesn't work for us, and even a slightly EBT only works if J is OT.
Capping is working for us now though - after 5 days of 30 minute naps he's finally lengthened his nights again to 10 hrs 45ish and we're getting decent WU times of 6.20 - 6.30. Long may it last! :)
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Its funny how theyre all so different? My dd is hsn but dropped the nap before 2.5- I totally wasnt expecting it! And super ebt work really well for her.
Weve been doing set bt at 6 but very loosely as she doesnt do well with day length longer than 11h20 normally. Last night was odd. She had a happy nw from 4.30-6. Im thinking perhaps ut after 4 nights of 13h ns?
She just woke now at 8.10 but im thinking to use today to try and push whole day out with clock change coming up...
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Sounds like a good plan x
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OK - I need some thought here please! MY DS (now 3) dropped his nap a few months ago (apart from the very rare car nap in the late afternoon). Last week he had a huge week - family from overseas staying, his birthday party, lots of activities etc. He's been clearly tired the past several days, and doing EW's etc. He had a 1hr catch-up nap yesterday afternoon, and still went to sleep last night pretty easily at 8.20pm (took him about 30mins, not the usual 60mins we often get after a nap). He had a brief NW at 1.50am and then wanted to get up at 6.20am but I told him it was not time to get up yet, and he went back off to sleep. He slept and slept and slept... and no, I didn't wake him (my bad?) until 10am!!!! And he would have kept sleeping. That was virtually a whopping 14hrs ONS!! This has NEVER happened before, and I was getting worried that he was not well or something. Anyway, what do I do tonight now!?! His normal BT is 7.30pm, 8-8.30pm with a nap. His normal WU is 7 - 7.30am. He does mostly 12-12.5hr days. Have I really botched things up by letting him sleep that late? Would you do a normal BT? Opinions please! xx
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Wow that was a long night!! Well... I was going to say you might be ok with the time change coming up but then saw your location, I guess it'll be the other way round for you, if you do daylight saving, so you'd be wanting your days to be getting earlier rather than later! I don't think I'd do normal bedtime but maybe try for 9pm-ish? To kind of split the difference between normal BT and normal A time? What do you think?
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Yes we actually changed to daylight savings a few weeks back which worked ok for us as we left BT alone (was 6.30pm which is now 7.30pm) and WU were a more respectable 7am ish... But things have bee quite wonky since then so still finding our groove. The other night I did EBT of 6.45pm as he only had a 10.75hr night but he woke 6.15am still (meant a 11.25hr night but he really needed more to catch up) and now, this! Yes I'm guessing a normal BT would be too early... Maybe 9pm is a good idea. So hard to tell with Ds how tired he is... His tired signs re not very clear normally.... Gah!
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How did it go? I find the same with tired signs, throughout the 1-0 it's been more a case of 'does this nap/day length result in a night length which leaves him refreshed or tired in the morning?' rather than trying for BT when he seems tired, as that may be counterproductive and he's often gone hyper when tired, might get a second wind later (when we've had to keep him up) etc.
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I think I need to jump on board here too....we we're getting a nice predictable 11 night and 1.5 nap but last 2 weeks we've had total refusal to go to bed, just shouts every excuse known if in bed. I have been having to do a strategic car ride or buggy walk to get a nap. He seems best on a 30 min CN and 12 hour day but I'm worried OT will kick in.
Yesterday looked shattered by 1pm so I suggested we for a sleep and was greeted with a huge nooooomummy he eventually nodded off on the sofa so I let him have 1 hour but oh my this spirited monkey does not like to be woken....horrendous mood for 2 hours after that, then BT took forever with bouncing on the bed, every excuse again so ended up with a 13.5 hour day.
Woke at 5.45 am so 10 hour night ???
And the dreaded clock change urghh
Honestly not a clue what I'm doing....!
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Welcome to the madness Haribo. Can you stick to whats working and throw in a cu nap once a week?
We still havent got a handle on things ::) the day she had 8am wu I tried to push day out for clock change this weekend and she woke at 6! Still trying to cu :( she doesnt handle set times we just get shorter nights and ot so im sticking to 11.25 days but wu is ridiculous.it was 5.30 today so im hoping for a cu nap and later bt. Meh
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I'm wondering if I should try nap a bit earlier so he's got a longer A to bed! Hmmm decisions ha ha, and I was hoping to start potty training next week so might as well do full madness at once x
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Welcome Haribo!
How old's your DS? Ours started protesting naps around 2 years plus something (??) but still definitely needed them and is still going now - just! Whenever he would start to struggle with his nap we would push it out another 15mins, then he'd get down more easily. We were also quite firm with him about having his nap, he knew we wouldn't give in. We did this because on the rare occasions when he had to manage a NND, he was seriously flagging by 3pm! If BT was suffering we'd shave 15mins off the nap. This worked until we got to 7h A time with 45mins nap, then we went to 1h set nap time so would wake at the same time regardless of when he went to sleep, he has a gro clock so knows when it's time to get up. Nowadays if he's awake when I go to put DD down he'll just get up anyway, which is fine with me, I just think I'll find routines easier to mesh if he keeps his down/nap time until DD has dropped her 4th nap... Which should be soon! Even wondering whether to go CT once that happens and just let him tell us if/when he thinks he needs one???
Hugs Aishi sorry can't advise as have no experience of set A times at this stage, we've done set nap times since the 2-1.
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He's 29 months, well today he ended up sleeping for 1.20 mins in pushchair as was out walking with a friend....so guess it's going to be a late BT...might help with clock change I guess lol!
Our naps are getting late in the day if he has one....2pm today x
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Hello to all! I havent been here for a while. Liam hasn't napped in 3 weeks :o :o and the last few days have not been great... We have been doing a set BT of 7pm (it was 630 but pushed to 7 last week getting ready for the clock change) and he is starting to EW and is just tired all day! I think he needs a 10.5hr day, and he does tack on, but not enough. If i do a 10.5hr day he will tack and do 13hrs, for example, but considering the day was 10.5hrs and his night was 13hrs, we are missing a half hour of sleep or A time and as the days go by out WU becomes earlier and earlier. Thats why i thought i would stick to a set BT but it is just not working...
On nov. 3rd Liam is starting at a new preschool, mondays and tuesdays and thursdays 820-4, wed 820-1230 and fridays 820-3 with a 50min nap at 1210 everyday but wednesday. I really doubt he will fall asleep so early ::) so i think the nnd's will be continuing so i need to find some kind of solution with his sleep, otherwise he will be falling apart at school.
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That sounds like my dd MLL. My dd will do 13h nights but nnd can only be 11.25 or she has ot ew but lile u said with short day wu gets earlier all the time. Today it was 5.30!! >:(
let me know if you come up with a solution!
fwiw re clock change im doing something unadvised and radical lol since gradual shifting of day doesnt work wih either of my kids im just going to do late bt with both as dd will still do 11h night when ot. So im aiming for 8pm bt amd fxd 7am wu (6 am new time tho), try for a cu nap (11-1) and 7 bt to get a more sensible wu as it will still only be a 11h day iykwim? Wish me luck!!
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Well my 31 month old just started back up on naps again after refusing for almost a month. We kept up quiet time, and then we told him he had to nap to use the ipad and then he started sleeping at nap again... Thank god. But now we have the opposite problem of him napping for too long. I am not at home during the day and hubbie and the nanny let him sleep for 2 hours! And then bedtime for me is terrible (late...) and he wakes at 6am!
how long should the nap be at this age? I am sure we are supposed to cap it...
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Well it ended up being 8.30 BT and some apop which I've not done for months but he just wouldn't sleep without me!
I think tomo night I'll just do 8pm BT and hope for 6.30 WU new time then wing it from there!
Nickie...don't know if there is such a thing as how long nap should be....guess it depends on LO, I now know 1.5 hours is giving is a late BT x
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Well just FYI DS (after sleeping in til 10am yesterday) was getting cranky at 7.30pm so we did 8pm BT. He mucked for a bit but was asleep by 8.45am then not a peep til 6.15am (getting a habitual wake then it seems?)!but went back out again after that til 7.30am - so 10.5hrs ONS after a short day - I couldn't expect more than that! Hopefully he's caught up now and we can get back on track. Any things possible though, thee LO's are sent to confuse us I'm sure of it!
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Oh my DST throws a spanner in the works! DD hasn't napped on a regular basis for months but we thought we'd try shifting her BT in preparation. Did 7pm instead of 6.30pm and she woke at 5.30am ::) then napped 30 mins in the car and refused BT until 8.20pm! Up at 7am this morning (waited for lights on but may have woken earlier.....). Ouch. Thank goodness we're on holiday with my family so they can keep her busy! Going for 7.30pm tonight so we're at usual 6.30pm after the time change. Good luck everyone!
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I don't even know what DS is doing with sleep at the moment! He often gets disturbed by us or DD in the mornings when he's supposed to still be asleep but just gets up and it's often easier to let him rather than risk him disturbing DD... Even when he does go back to bed it's hard to tell whether he's gone back to sleep or not, same with naps, he'll sometimes just play quietly in his room waiting for me to go into our adjacent room to settle DD, then immediately get up to play with the ipad! Our only strategy for the clock change is to be more insistent about him staying in bed until the sun comes up on his gro clock, as we won't be getting up early this week - on holiday :) and do it gradually. I don't think he really needs his nap now but will try for it most days when in this week to try and help with the clock change, then go ct at some point afterwards - which is pretty similar to what we did with the 2-1 in the end. Hope everyone manages to ride out the messiness... Sometime I think that's just what it comes down to!
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Im hoping to get dd to nap at 1 today as she woke at 6 and do an 8pm bt which should get us up to 6am wu if it goes to plan but I know it wont! Lol still doing 8 bt even if she doesnt nap and just hoping she crashes through ot!
good luck all!
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we are doing similar...hoping to nap M at 1.30pm for an hour and do 7.30pm BT (usually 7pm with nap) and that should get us to 6.30pm tomorrow no nap which is the norm but bound to be flawed!
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How was it for everyone? We had a great day and night fri night and yesterday mood was fab, went to bed like a dream at 8pm but had a 1 hour NW then woke at 4am and wouldn't sleep again.....so tired :'(
Wondering if he's getting a cold as he was so obv tired but just couldn't settle....I'm going to apop him to bed at lunch if it last thing I do today lol x
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Hugs for the rough night haribo. Hope he feels better soon.
We did surprisingly well. She did a 13h night on fri with a 6am wu so I did nap 1-3 (which I wasnt expecting) and bt was 9. She had a few nws and wu was 7.30 new time :D
ds woke at 5 yesterday ::) ::) and bt was 8. Wu was 5.30 new time- I was expecting it to be 4.30 new time so cant complain here!
how did the rest get on? xx
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wake up for both was around 7.30am so 6.30am old time which I can't complain about - mine rarely sleep later with a later BT. Just aiming for normal ish BT's tonight I think??
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We managed 7.30pm BT (old time) and 5.30am WU (new time), so 11h, but may have dozed a bit more and stayed in bed until clock turned green at 6.30am. We'll go back to normal BT tonight of 6.30pm :)
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Well we had 6am yesterday then went back into room watching the clock (apparently no more sleep!) until 7ish, then nap refusal and once I had got DD down around 8pm I went into his room to finish off his BT to find him asleep in his dressing gown on top of his duvet with the light on! Set his gro clock for 6.45 new time but he was in our room (waking DD) at 6am sent back to bed until the sun came up, but I guess it's a step in the right direction!
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All sounds quite good for you, glad your nights all went fairly well. My DS has been the happiest thing all morning (poss verging on manic lol) no nap refusal at 12.30 so letting him have 1.5hrs I think then normal BT tonight hopefully.
To top it off he's decided he wants sides off the cot and were starting potty trains next week lol could be fun all round x
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We purposely tired J out the last 2 days with the plan that we'd then be able to resettle him when he woke at 4.30am... Which luckily worked. He woke for the day at 6.15 new time. He won't resettle unless he's very tired / OT, so mega catch up nap today of 2hrs. I can't remember the last time he slept that long! Normally this would spell an EW tomorrow but I'm hoping he's still in catch up mode and we'll get a 10.5hr night at least. Normal bedtime of 7.30 tonight for us as well I think.
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Omg! 1-0 nap hell tonight. Dis did not nap and cried from 5 until 7 pm at EBT. Geez makes me realize how much he still needs that nap. Our time change is this next weekend... Maybe it will be helpful???:(
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Nickie if you have a day like that where DS is clearly tired at 5pm it's honestly worth trying just getting him down for the night then. EBT will only really work in terms of tacking on if you get him down before he's overtired. Can be scary I know if you've never gone that early but it can be a lifesaver. Just a thought to consider :). Sorry for the rough day though xx
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I have never done a v early BT but like Katherine says if he is 'that' tired it is worth a try.
We are having a hard time here. Both kids have been waking earlier since the clock change which is normal for us, it usually takes a while for them to 're-set' but Martha is SUCH hard work atm. She is generally only napping once or twice a week now and we allow 1-1.5 hours. The other days BT is set for 6.30pm.
I 'think' she is getting about 12 hours night sleep which really does not seem too bad but oh my her mood and behaviour is shocking. It's hard to tell if it is 1-0 or just developmental or what? Today is tired for def as she ended up having a late CN in the car yday on the way back from London and fell asleep about 7.15pm but was awake at around 6.15am which is def not enough sleep after a small nap. She has pretty much cried and shouted all am so PD for a nap. I do wonder how we will ever get out the other end of the 1-0. Some days I think she really needs a nap still, other days I feel we should just totally get rid of it but I just do not think she will cope. Added to that we can't do SEBT's here really so 6.30pm is about the earliest I can do.
Yawn.
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Hugs Becky that sounds very trying :(
We've just changed our approach from offering a nap every day (and then guessing whether he actually took it or not - not always truthful!) to making NNDs standard. We insisted on one on Monday after the time change, then told him he could only go to the museum to see the dinosaurs if he stayed in his room until the sun on his gro clock got up at 7am. So, at precisely 7am, we heard him "YES I can go to the dinosaur museum!" :) Then with 7-7 NNDs on tue - thu he was really tired but no longer waking early. Would have offered a nap on Fri but prior commitments, he was soo tired though. On that basis I'm thinking he can manage 3 NNDs before needing a nap, we'll try and insist on one today and aim for one nap at the weekend and one on a Wednesday... Think we'll stick to a 2-3pm window for naps with 8pm BT. Will keep you posted... Feeling like this is 'stage 2' of the 1-0, ie napping every 1 in x days, with x getting gradually bigger - how long did this stage last, for those of you whose LOs are done with naps now? For each transition I've wanted to be rid of the nap so badly but hung onto it for as long as possible, knowing that was best for him, but it really would be nice to be nap free soon!
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Becky - 3.5yo developmental stuff was really bad in this house, do younthink M could be going through that?
DD2 hasn't napped since tuesday...and her days are getting longer because she is better rested. 12.5hr days are exhausting with a spirited no napping 19mo!
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oh such a relief to hear you say that Tink. I think in part it must be, she has been TRULY awful behaviour wise recently. I should post about it but not sure where to start iykwim.
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Trimbler - "stage 2" lasted a few months for us, but the 1-0 was a loooong slow process here, starting practically a year to get to the stage DS can handle NND's now and sleeps 11 - 12hrs at night. Felt like it was never going to end! He still needs the odd catch-up nap if he has had a really busy week or a particularly bad night, but I hear you on wanting it just to be done already!!!
And yes - its SO hard to know if behavior and mood is 'normal' developmental stuff, or OT stuff. I think I jump into putting it all down to sleep related issues, but I think in reality a lot of it is actually nothing to do with tiredness, just part of being 3. (DS just turned 3 and someone has flipped the "crazy" switch on here too.... oh my goodness....)
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Has anyone here gone through the 1-0 with everything coming out as EWs rather than BT refusal? We're getting some nap refusal but I can usually get J to nap after a while, but we're getting lots of EWs. It was the same with the 2-1. He'd nap but then EW if it was too late in the day etc. We had some success with capping at 30 minutes, but then the clocks changed and we went back to EWs for a bit. Got over them again by letting him nap a bit longer (could see he was OT from the long days), but now WU is creeping earlier again. I suspect I need to throw in a few NNDs and see how he copes, but with my daughter it was all driven by her refusing naps, so I just followed her lead. With J I think I'm going to have to manage it more and just go by cues.
Not doing anything drastic right now cos we're away and he's also cutting his last molars, so that know the EWs could be related to that too. But I'm scheming for when that passes.... ;).I think I've got to try and offer his nap slightly earlier (say, 1pm) and if he fights it for more than 10 minutes, get him up and do quiet time instead. With the 2-1 I got to the point where if he wouldn't easily nap after 3hrs 30 A, I had to take that as a sign that he needed more A that day and not persevere with the nap cos if I did it made things worse. I think it's going to be the same here.
Anyone else gone / going through the 1-0 with an EWing LO? Any tips? Also, anyone capped at less than 30 minutes on a daily basis? I'm thinking about trying that once his teeth are through too.
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Just to say hi as we are on this journey now too. Benji is 2 years 9 months old.
We are just now down to a 1hr capped nap. It's difficult to read any cues from Benji as rarely do we have a consistent eg. later BT or EW. We always have NWs and so it's difficult to read him from that too. However, I had 3 days in a row where either he had a short night (9hours and 10 hours ) and/or a later BT (7.50). His BTs had been randomly later than normal 7.30 BT for a few weeks too.
I have SO many questions about this transition! I've been reading this thread on and off for tips and clues and so thought I'd chip in now so I can get to know everyone and get/give some support too.
So, hello and thanks in advance :)
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Has anyone here gone through the 1-0 with everything coming out as EWs rather than BT refusal?
Yes - BT's were rarely fought for long, if at all here.... if he had a nap it generally meant he'd chat for longer before going to sleep, but not for hours, more like 30 mins. Made it hard to know if it was UT or OT or what was going on. Still does really!
What do you make of our pattern lately of short night/long night? I've probably jinxed it now but we seem to get a later WU every second day, which means if we keep the set BT the following day is shorter, and makes it a shorter night. Lately we have had 13hr ONS (this is huge for my LO), then 10.5hr ONS, then 13hr ONS, then 11hr ONS....
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I would probably interpret that as doing a shorter night from UT after a longer night and then shorter day. Or your LO learning to regulate. Does it cause early starts for you? Do you think he'd do a slightly later BT after a long night followed by a short day?
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Yes, I tend to be leaning to the UT direction, I mean he's not overly emotional in the evenings/falling apart... He GENERALLY goes to bed easily enough and is asleep anywhere from 15-30mins after a bit of chatting. He's not yawning his head off the whole day... But last night was another classic example of a short night (early wake). He did a 12hr night followed by a 12hr day, showed some signs of wearing out, but still in pretty good spirits on the whole. In bed at 7.15pm, bit restless but asleep by 7.45pm, sttn until 6.15am then had a meltdown because I told him it wasn't morning. (Morning has been set for 7am which is usually no problem, he has been sleeping til after 7am most days). So a 10.5hr ONS last night... Now I'm stuck as to when to make BT because after a short night I tend to think the most he can handle is a 12hr day... but that makes a pretty EBT... BT was "set" for 7.30pm when we were getting on average 11.5hr nights.
Would you go with an EBT tonight in the hope he will catch up tonight and try and ease towards a slightly later BT after a long night?
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Tbh, I'd probably stick with a set BT minus 15-30 minutes and if he did another short night, consider a catch up nap or EBT after that to catch up. Jack handles OT very well though, so I don't mind pushing him and fixing it later if need be :)
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Has some people found their LOs just can not do catch up naps? Any nap at all now makes BT super late. This week she refused naps 5 days of the 7 (previous to this she was having NNDs 2-3 times a week so quite an increase) I hoped that these 2 naps would be catch up ones, we tried one long nap (1hr) and one short (20min) to see how it effected BT and PD 45 min after we would on a NND and got a lot of messing and a 9.30-10 sleep time on both naps.
NNDs are great now
WU 7.30
BT 7
but the longer between nap days the more NWs we have and she starts getting touchy. When this happens wwud?
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Yes, I found that for a long time with lily. Then at some point after she'd been firmly on no nap for a while, they started working again. She hasn't napped regularly for almost 3 years, but since she started school has needed roughly one car nap a month to keep on top of the tiredness. I'm sure that won't last, but the point is she can do it without it messing up her night now :)
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^^^ We found exactly the same with E, she can have a short nap now and it's not a problem for BT but to begin with she wouldn't be in bed before 9.30pm if she's even so much as dozed off in the car.
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It's nice to hear it may get better.
Part of me feels like I should just cold turkey the nap, with a nap her total days sleep is usually 1 1/2 hrs less than a NND. She is only 27 months though and knowing so many her age are still taking decent naps puts me off.
When your LOs did nap and had BT shenanigans, when were you putting them down for bed?
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Yes the occasional catch up car nap now doesn't play too much havoc with BT or ONS these days. It used to rob us of ONS...
Well my DH persuaded me to not do a SEBT so he wasn't asleep til 7.10pm and we had a bit of a shocker of a night again. Trying to keep calm, as you say LLAJ he's handling OT waaaay better on the whole these days and he eventually does self regulate. At a birthday party this morning so I am quietly hoping he might drop off in the car on the way home but if not I will do a SEBT tonight and hope for the best.
Anyone else long for the day when all of these sleep 'issues' are a thing of the past?! But then feel like I shouldn't be wishing the time away. But an OT toddler is no fun for anyone.
Hugs all of you.
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Haribo - Lily was almost exactly that age when I stopped trying to get her to nap and pretty much went cold turkey to one nap cos we had the same where nap days resulted in so much less sleep. It's not what others are doing, but what your LO needs. Having a very lsn one who's into the 1-0 already has taught me that!
If I remember correctly, we let lily have the odd nap in the car on holiday when she was 31 months old, to help adjust to the time change, and she slept really well that week, so a short nap obviously wasn't affecting nights then. So that was about 4 months after finishing the transition cold turkey. How many nnds is your LO doing a week now?
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It's so nice to know we aren't alone. I think it's choosing the right time to stop I'm struggling with, it's so hard when you can see her so tired some days to not want to give her a nice nap but then its all in vein due to BT becoming so late.
Did you give lilly any quiet time or anything instead of her nap?
My DD was only doing 2 NNDs a week for the last few weeks but it jumped to 5 NNDs this week, unsure if that's the new pattern or just a odd week. It has become a lot wetter and colder this week so she's not getting out which might be why she's refusing naps more.
Racksk8 I know exactly what you mean, if it's not transitions its teeth or illness effecting sleep, it's always something, at least here it is. One day we will miss these times though.
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Hi again, anyone found their LOs needed an earlier than expected BT on nap days when transitioning to fewer of them? Previously DS would have WU at 7am, nap 2-3 and BT 8pm, only he wouldn't nap all that time, started regularly getting up before the 'sun' (as we were up anyway) and taking ages to get to sleep at BT, but he'd do a good 11h night on a nap day after a 7-7 NND. During last week's holidays we thought we'd try dropping the nap ct but he managed 3 days really well, then was really tired on day 4 but unfortunately we couldn't give him a nap that day due to other commitments. He didn't want a nap day 5 but we regretted not insisting on it, then he napped the next day, had a terrible night with sore throat so napped the next day too. Based on this we decided to offer 2 naps a week, so 2-3 NNDs in between. After 2 NNDs this week he napped but was way more tired than usual by BT and had a really hard time waking this morning. Coped absolutely fine with NND today though. So what do you think? Offer BT at 7.30 on nap days instead, treating it as a catch up from having had more NNDs than he's used to?
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Haribo - I used to offer quiet time instead of a nap, yes. In fact I found I had to do that for a long time (like 1.5 - 2 years! ) to get lily to sit downsand have a break in the day. For a while, when she was alternating nnds and nap days we'd do it in her cot, and if she hadn't fallen asleep by 2pm, she'd just had quiet time. But when it got to the point where I didn't *want* her to fall asleep, I switched to TV for 30-45 minutes instead. And we carried that on after lunch for ages.
IIWM, I'd probably see where I was in another week or two, just to be sure it wasn't a blip, but if you stay on 5 NNDs a week, and nap days continue to be a problem, then I'd ditch offering a nap regularly and only offer it when my LO really seemed to need it. But lily also handled OT well....
trimbler - your approach sounds good to me! If you find ONS on nap days starts going wrong then you can always increase the number of NNDs again.
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Hi not posted in a while as honestly can't decide if I need to cut nap or not. We had a couple of weeks of having to apop a sleep but now DS happily goes for a nap and would sleep hours if I let him. Thurs we had an EW 5.30am then let him nap 1.5 hours because basically he was in a vile mood and I needed time alone. He often is a bit cranky on a thurs as first day home after nursery and it's either boredom or payback lol. BT no messing and did a 11 hr night. Yesterday made mistake of letting him nap 1.5 and well took until 8.30pm to get him to sleep as had call backs for all sorts of reason, then 1hr NW at 4am chatty then slept 5am-6.50am.
Can't decide if EW/nw are sleep or because we're potty training and it's bladder awareness ???
He's best after a pushchair nap of about an hour wakes up happier than if I've woke him from bed...but I'm not walking in the pouring rain lol xx
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Haribo89, we too had E dropping her nap properly around 26/27 months. We did go for a period when we realised she did not cope well with naps being capped and she preferred a later nap, so we had naps going from 2.30/3pm for 1.30/2 hours and BT was getting later and later. We were shattered as we weren't getting any evening to ourselves and eventually DD got OT from the 10 hour nights (I think she was sleeping 9.30/10 - 7am at the end).
We had had to mix nap days and no nap days for a while, but eventually she hit a point when even on NNDs her nights were getting too late so we had to cut the nap completely. I can't remember exactly when this was but I do know that by late May this year when we went on holiday (E was 30/31 months) and we could let her nap in the car in the afternoon to catch up and she'd still sleep at normal time at night. BT nowadays is ideally before 7pm.
So yes I agree with lovely lily and hack on the approach.
Haribo2012 - if you get a good BT after a one hour nap could you try regularly waking him from a cot nap after 1hr consistently for a week to let him get used to it? I know some LOs need this period of adjustment to get used to capped naps. But I say this as one who never had an LO who could cope with it so we chose to push BT back as described above. It didn't last too long and thankfully coincided with lengthening spring evenings so was not dark and awful for us keeping her occupied in the evenings. But we followed her and it did work for a while, until it didn't and then we changed.
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Gets confusing with 2 haribos lol!!
Going to try the 1 nap and take the vile mood on WU. Maybe we will get a 7.30pm bedtime ;) x
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Sounds good :) We're all over the place with sleep at the moment. I think his sleep needs have gone up a bit while he's cutting these molars. The bottom ones are starting to properly come through now. I hope the top ones follow soon cos I want them over and done with. I feel like the 1-0 is even more messy right now cos nothing is the same for more than 3 days ever, and the rules have all changed cos of these molars. If they're even having an effect on anything...! I'm counting on putting some of these EWs we're getting down to teeth, but don't know really til they're all through :-\
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I feel a bit like the potty training isn't helping the sleep either :-\ xx
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Thanks for all the advice, I will see how we go and keep it all written down, hopefully there's a pattern. My OH does BT so I feel bad for him when I give her a nap and it results in hours of fighting sleep for him.
We always do quiet time with a dvd in my bed now, shes not relaxed or slept in her cot at nap time for 3 months or more but will nod off if watching tv in my bed.
Yesterday was a NND and she slept from 6.40-7, her nights are getting longer on NNDs but today she still fell asleep at 2pm so I gave 15min. When should I PD for bed? I'm wondering if I'm just getting her BT wrong on CN days and that results in a 9.30-10pm sleep time.
I think I will see about changing username, two haribos both with LOs in the 1-0 is confusing ;-)
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Sorry I don't really have advice for younger LOs or 15min naps, just reading along.
I have a different sort of question - on nap days, BT has been later, especially when NNDs were the exception so the naps weren't really catch up naps, just normal. So meals have been stretched out more, snacks in between haven't been a problem. But now on NNDs dinner has to be earlier to fit in the earlier BT, which means lunch needs to be earlier too and now snacks seem to be interfering with meals so he's not so hungry for them. So for example yesterday he had a mid morning snack then struggled to eat lunch (which couldn't be delayed due to afternoon commitments), then he hardly ate any dinner (despite no afternoon snack), only had a little, then bath, then suddenly announced he was really hungry just as DH was about to finish his BT routine ::) Can't do much about snacks as he still needs them and I don't want to end up with less food being eaten overall as he's not a great eater in the first place! Anyone else have this?
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Trimbler: If my LO doesn't eat much dinner, I usually offer him a BT snack/supper and glass of milk as we are reading stories. Just something like crackers or whatever he will eat really. We are practically done with the nap now, but his appetite still fluctuates a lot... again, no idea if it's to do with being more tired somedays or just a 'normal' toddler/preschooler thing! Thats just what I do, anyway.
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Trimbler I was giving smaller snacks in between meals when I had to do them earlier and did a bt snack too. However i found that dd wasnt waking any earlier if she had a smaller dinner...
so set bt at 6.30 is working well here...I pd at 6.20 and she is asleep by 6.30 regardless of wu. But with later wus shes having nws for eg yesterday she woke at 7.15 and was asleep by 6.30 but had nw from 5-6. Shes still asleep now at 8.05. I know shes learning to self regulate but would you wake in the mornings even if u don't have to ie for school run and should I stick to 6.30 bt for tonight? ?
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Thanks for snack tips!
With fewer nap days now, DS is often struggling to get up but we have no choice with preschool during the week. He'll then say he wants a nap that day but of course it's different once nap time comes along and now that naps are negotiable it's getting harder to insist, I'm not sure enough myself to do that. Maybe we need to try shorter days now? Used to find that 7-7 worked well for the occasional NND (at first it was 11h days, but we did have to increase this as he got older), but maybe it needs to reduce again now? What have others found when NNDs got more frequent?
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Aishi I didn't wake in the morning ever unless I had to for nursery, just let her sleep. So things did fluctuate a bit but they are definitely more settled now :)
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Thanks katherine. I left her and she woke at 8.30!! She said she was tired at bt so I pd at 6.30 and she was asleep by 6.55. Guess shes better at this self regulating business than I thought she would be!
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She's a good 'un :)
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Hi all,
I've just given Benji his first NND :/
He didn't get to sleep til past 9pm last night and woke several times overnight so I let him sleep and he was up just after 7.30am.
Down in seconds at 6pm BT.
That's a 10.5 hour night.
But how do I know what to do tomorrow? We were on a 1 hour nap giving 11hr nights until 3 days ago. Then nights went short to 10hrs and less. Then the 9pm UT BT.
How do you know when to do the next NND? And how do you know how long/short days should be?
Thanks, I'm still reading your discussions but I think you all seem to be a bit further along the line than me. I was just going to cut his nap back to 45 mins and stay with normal BT, but got advice to take the plunge into NN territory. I know you can't just go cold turkey, so not sure what I will do now.
Presumably I'll offer an uncapped nap tomorrow and subsequently cut nap back to 45 mins??
Our usual routine when working looks something like:
WU 6/6.30
Nap 1.45 (1hr)
BT 7/730
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Straffles: at the start of the 1-0 I didn't cap naps, maybe I might have gotten longer nights sooner if I had, I don't know. When DS started refusing naps (much earlier than he should have) I would do a drive in the car when I thought he REALLY needed one. He never really mucked too long at BT, he was more of a EW kid (still is sometimes, sigh).
Anyone found sleep go wonky again around age 3? I don't know if I need to tweak things again (and if so, how) or just ride it out. It's just so random and I wonder if I try and keep to a 12hr day as a set BT still gives us random results. Or are some kids just this way inclined? I really thought we were done with this transition!!!!
Also, my DH is not exactly on the same page as me with DS sleep needs. He thinks I over analyse (which could be true) and that I should relax and go with the flow more. If he's on bedtime, he won't put him down until 7pm at the latest (we have had a BT of 7.30pm) where as if he has had a couple of 11hr nights with EW's I personally see that as a sign of OT creeping in and will go for an earlier BT or try for a car-nap to help him catch up. He woke at 6.15am today (second 11hr night in a row) and giving him a nap of any sort today will be tricky, despite the fact I think he could do with one. DH still won't get him down til 7pm, which is a 12.75hr day after a short night - recipe for OT nightmare if you ask me. :-(
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Tricky if you and DH aren't on the same page... Does DS have a gro clock or anything like that? Would he stay in bed until the 'sun' came up, even with an EW? Mine has usually been fairly happy to do that, sometimes he'll even drift back off to sleep but even if not I figure it's still worth it as he's at least been resting during that time.
Mine definitely got more tired around 3, but then he'd just started preschool. Think there's also a GS. Or are you finding less sleep needed rather than more? Can't comment on naps as we're only just dropping ours now!
I've got lazy with naps, during DH's holiday a couple of weeks ago DS only took about one nap I think as he was doing other things but did get really tired. Now of course naps are negotiable so no matter how tired he is when we have to get him up in the morning, he doesn't want one! And tbh it's just easier now not to, otherwise it would disturb DD's sleep. So we're just experimenting with earlier BT, not so easy as DH is working later atm and I'm not good at doing both BTs, but that's where we are now, kind of gone ct! Maybe DH will have the energy to insist on one at the weekend...
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Straffles - Have you tried later bedtime? 7pm bedtime is pretty early if nap is from 1:45-2:45. Right now dd is napping until 2:30ish and bedtime is 8pm, any earlier and it causes trouble!
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Rachsk8, I think a 12.75 hour day is fine. Most of our days are 13 hour days and sometimes 13.5. We do set bedtime at 8 pm and he wakes between 6:30/7. We tried the certain number hour days before and a set bedtime seems to regulate his sleep patterns more. My other friend has a 3.5 year old and she just dropped her nap. Her BT is also the same and she sleeps the same amount as my son. At 3-3.5 it's not unheard of that they just need only 11 hours total.
My DH also said I needed to go with the flow a bit more and since we just kept BT the same no matter what the wake up time was, we have hardly any issues with EWU or anything else. Even the day that DST happened, my son was up for nearly 14 hours because I had to stretch him to the new 8 pm, he adjusted the next morning.
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Hi all, I was just wondering how your getting on? How far are you all into the 1-0 and have you got any routine going?
We thought we were done with naps for good, any nap length at 2-2.30pm made bedtime 10pm, until we tried giving a 30min nap earlier in the day, around 1pm and pd 12-12.5hr after wake up, which is usually 7. That mixed in with NND days when she refuses naps seems to be working at the moment. I thought it was worth mentioning as a lot of people push naps later but it seems my LO needs a longer A before bed than some LOs but isn't quite ready for NNDs all the time yet. I wish I had thought of it sooner!
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That's interesting haribo89, I couldn't have done that with DS as he needed his nap pushed later in order to actually get to sleep! I've lost track of how many NNDs we've had now, he opposes them so vehemently now that I really just can't be bothered to argue with him, even if he woke early and is lying on the floor around his old nap time, I'm feeding DD and he's telling me he doesn't want to nap etc... Then again, we haven't had so many mornings where we've had to wake him recently. We had been doing 7-7 on NNDs as that had worked best for the occasional one when he was mostly napping. Then we tried 6.30-6.45pm BT but had a few more NWs and EWs, so still trying to settle on the optimum routine but think we've pretty much said goodbye to naps now, almost CT! Thinking now if we get WU before 7am then we'll do BT 6.30-6.45, if WU is 7am then BT will be 7pm, we can let him sleep in a little at the weekend if he needs...
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Yea we're done with naps. Have been for ages. She wont go for an early nap either and late nap would just mean late bt. I was doing 11-11.25 days for few months but as she got better at handling ot (and I got tired of 5pm bts! ) I started doing set bt 6.30 about two weeks ago (- 30 mins if she needed it) and wu has ranged from 6.30-8!. I would still do 6.30 bt with later wu cos I figure she needed the cu. Hth!
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I take back all I said, the last two nights we have had 9-10hrs nights on a 1/2 hour nap and is extremely grumpy and won't eat. She wouldn't go to sleep until 9-10pm again :-( really do not no what to do with her anymore and me and my OH can not agree on the best way forward, he thinks we should go cold turkey because any nap means less over all sleep but I just want to offer her a long nap because she's in such a state. Help ?....
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H89 is your lo hsn? Does he tack on to night sleep?
when I was having bt troubles on 20/30 min cn I went ct (it was only few weeks into 1-0) so that was from a 2h nap to capped naps (she hated capping) and just ct dropped nap. I did 10.5h days but dd is hsn and tacks on well. Having said that my ds (4.5 yo) is lsn and an ew and when he dropped nap he tacked on for a while too so maybe worth a try for a week or so?
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Sounds to me like she needs the longer nights to feel well rested? Maybe it's a case of tweaking the night length to get it 'right' and doing EBT if she's really tired? That's where we are, anyway! Sorry can't remember if you need to wake at a certain time in the morning? Seems most of us are either waking at set time and tweaking BT, or having set BT and letting them sleep in if needed? Hugs!
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I was afried cold turkey might be the only way, I'd hoped she would of lasted until 2.5 though, I think it's that or longer naps and except shorter nights to bump up over all sleep?
She's LSN I think, we done to 2-1 early and had to cold turkey that early in, I don't think we have ever really figured her out or been in a routine long.
The earliest we have been brave enough to do is a 6.30 bt on a NND and she did tack on, I think she is more likely to tack on and wake at her normal time than lay in past 7.30.
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So you haven't tried days shorter than 11h? I guess you might find that 11h works to start with but might not be sustainable if you're really doing ct? Idk, I hadn't realised how young your dd is, how old is she? How many NNDs have you done in a row and how long were they, how did she handle it? Sorry I'm sure you've been through that already in detail! I can't help thinking we probably have it much easier than most of you, dropping the nap at such a late age, although of course in some ways it would have been useful if he hadn't kept it so long, but I was glad of it during pregnancy!
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Well things have been a bit off here since setting bt at 6.30...nws and ew....I thought it was a dev leap cos her birthday coming up I jan but then realised that the chatty nws coincided with implementing set bt doh. Her mood was just awful these last two days...tantrums and meltdowns over everything :(. So I did sebt yesterday for 5.30. I heard her at 2.30 and 5.45. Fxd she catches up and I can go back to the set bt.
Is a one off ebt going to throw set bt off track?
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Rachsk8, I think a 12.75 hour day is fine. Most of our days are 13 hour days and sometimes 13.5. We do set bedtime at 8 pm and he wakes between 6:30/7. We tried the certain number hour days before and a set bedtime seems to regulate his sleep patterns more. My other friend has a 3.5 year old and she just dropped her nap. Her BT is also the same and she sleeps the same amount as my son. At 3-3.5 it's not unheard of that they just need only 11 hours total.
My DH also said I needed to go with the flow a bit more and since we just kept BT the same no matter what the wake up time was, we have hardly any issues with EWU or anything else. Even the day that DST happened, my son was up for nearly 14 hours because I had to stretch him to the new 8 pm, he adjusted the next morning.
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Thanks PP. Yeah, I have quite a bit of trouble reading the signs and working out whether it is OT or just normal 3yr old stuff... ie: some days he is on a mission to destrcut everything in sight, throw toys etc, won't eat, so I quickly "assume" he's OT if he's had an 11-11.25hr night or two, but maybe hes not. I guess there's differing degrees of OT too, like shades of grey, not just black and white. I feel like he's almost at least a bit tired.... I guess it is taking him quite a while to adjust, and life is tiring when you are a 3yr old, huh?
Might just go back to a set BT and push through, do an EBT if he wakes before 7am. We were onto a really good stretch there for a while, so don't know why it's gone a bit haywire again. Sigh.
Aishi: I try to read the signs as to whether we need a couple pf EBT to get back on track. But as above, sometimes I find the signs are unclear, unless he's super OT and yawning all over the place. My DS is very sensitive, so he would probably need a few days of EBT to get sorted out.
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Hi trimbler, we have done 10.5hr but that was with a late WU, on NNDs the earliest we have pd is 6.30 and that was just once and she did 13hrs to our surprise. Before NNDs we never had nights over 10.5- 11hrs. She's done 3 NNDs in a row a few weeks ago and she did great 1st day, slept 12.5 hr, no nw, day 2, slept 12hrs 3 nw, day 3, slept 11.5hr, 8 NWs. However she probably should of gone to bed earlier. She was touchy on day 3 but ok on other days. I think the 30min naps are putting her into a UT/OT loop. She has short night and wakes tired, her nap refreshs her and she's happy all afternoon but not tired for Bt, i might be wrong but that's the only thing I can think it is because the last few days she will take a nap no problem, even after only a few hours awake due to being sooo tired but bedtime is a battle and we are getting a lot of NWs, which I'm guessing are from OTness? After so many short nights. She's 28 months now, but nap refusal/taking hours to go to sleep, occasional NNDs have been going on since her 2nd birthday. Sometimes i question if it's the 1-0 and that maybe she's just in an OT cycle but then she wouldn't fight Bt after a nap?
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Aishi no a one-off EBT won't throw things. We tend to stick to set BT for the most part but J will every now and then have a 20 min power nap in the car if we've had a run of NWs/EWs and it seems to reset things again x
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Thanks katherine! Thats good to know. Hopefully were back on track as she woke at 6.45 :)
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Uh oh think we've gone off track :-/ shes been really cranky all day today after a 12h night so 6.20 wu. I let her nap 1-2.30 (didnt expect her to nap and she didnt fall asleep at bt till 8.!! I was hoping 7/7.20 to keep to a 13h day....she sounded ot before falling asleep :(
I want to shift her bt to 7/7.30 as ds's is shifting to 8 to get rid of ew and I was hoping this would do the trick for dd too. ..ugh hope I havent messef things up too much
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I think I'm really going to have to maybe try a few NND as DS had an hour the last few days and is waking at 5.30 and not going to sleep till 8pm sometimes bit later. Messing about at BT getting in and out of bed, playing peek a boo round the door....annoying but also hilarious with the look of mischief on his face.
Currently parked in his doorway putting back to bed trying my best not to laugh x
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Uh oh think we've gone off track :-/ shes been really cranky all day today after a 12h night so 6.20 wu.
Oh dear. Do you think it's OT for sure Aishi, or maybe 'normal' toddler crankiness? Just asking because I have trouble telling sometimes. My DS had a good 12hr + sleep last night, but seems lethargic and a bit tired today, not sure what it's about, but I think we will push on with quiet time instead of offering a nap as half the time I find it makes it worse in the long-run. Gah who knows.
In the months after dropping the nap, how do you handle when your LO's get tired and cranky, instead of naptime? Any tricks to perk them up in the afternoon when they are a bit grouchy?
Another random question, but do your kids yawn a lot, and do you take that as a sign of needing to offer a nap, or just take it as part of the process of this transition?
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She's ot for sure :( normal crankiness doesn't result in the weepy meltdowns she's been having...but nap was a mistake. She had a singing nw from 4.20-5 and then wu was 7.15. So probably back to 6.30 bt...
Re your questions if books and toys in cot don't work for quiet time, I let her lie in my bed with me to look at pictures on my phone or watch cartoons, to on couch helps, reading books, Lego and giving snacks when she's a bit grouchy all helps...
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We have a long time in the park with lunch after preschool as DS needs plenty of time to run off energy. But then our afternoons are pretty quiet at home, really so dd can nap inside, but it does also seem to be good for DS. We tend to have a couple of books whilst dd feeds, DS has a snack and drink to keep him going and often has a short calm play with dd, he also tends to lie on the floor playing with his cars denying that he's feeling a bit tired! I think for him the park trip helps as it's much easier for him to play more restfully if he's already used up his physical energy. Otherwise we have grumpy and full of energy! Not that it's all quiet, when dd is napping he usually finds some more energy for some sort of superhero role play :)
Yesterday DH was home late so I let him play quietly in his room, all ready for bed, whilst I did DD's BT routine. Went into his room for a story and lights out, to find him already fast asleep with the lights on! Guess he's still got some adjusting to do... So far this week we've alternated grumpy and happy days, don't really know how that correlates with sleep as he doesn't always get up when he's awake, but again, guess he's just adjusting.
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Oh boy…we are in a mess…
We decided it was time for M to give up his soother. He is 39 months so it was well over due…
He has actually done very well without it with the exception of he also decided that he would NOT nap at daycare anymore since we took it away last weekend.
He was taking anywhere between a 40 minute to 1 hour nap every day at daycare and has since decided that without his soother, he isn’t napping anymore.
He is SO massively ot and his behaviour is just awful. He is falling asleep with no problem at all at night but waking early and it’s making for a very short night.
I thought it would be a more gradual transition going from 1-0 but he has simply decided he’s done with it. I remember going from 2-1 and it was bad and took a while and I was not looking forward to this…and here we are right smack in the middle of it.
So, EBT??? He doesn’t (or hasn’t in the past) tacked on but I think I need to catch him up. He has been going down for about 7:30/7:45 but waking up anywhere between 5:30/6:00.
At his age, how long should his day be? He does tend to get OT quite easily but has never given long nights…this is new territory for me so I’m out of my element…
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Aw Mattsmummy, hugs coming your way, this can be such a difficult transition... I think day length really depends on a lot of factors. If he's not coping with 12hr days (or needs to catch up) I'd move half an hour earlier BT at least. my DS is not good at tacking on but is finally starting to use ONS to catch up albeit slowly. I'm not an expert at this and constantly double guessing myself but hoping it helps to know your not alone in this one. Hopefully the others have some helpful advice re hours etc.
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Hey mattsmummy, hugs, it's quite a shock when these LOs make snap decisions like this. My DD is 37 months old but she has not napped for over 6 months now, but she sleeps between 11.5 and 13 hours at night, depending on what we've been up to.
After nursery she is always OS and there's nothing I can do to get her in bed earlier so we tend to get short nights but at the end of the week she catches up with longer nights.
E never managed EBT either until she dropped her last nap, so you may find that he will cope with EBT now, if you can maybe try a half hour early and see how you get on. But like rachsk8 has said, it is a bit of trial and error really. Good luck x
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After nursery she is always OS and there's nothing I can do to get her in bed earlier so we tend to get short nights but at the end of the week she catches up with longer nights.
This is interesting Buttonbobs... do you just push on with a bit of OT and grouchiness and see how it evens out over the week? I tend to panic when we get a short night and feel like I "should" make him nap... (or do a car-nap) Maybe I'm jumping/reacting too fast? Hh started this transition about a year ago (!!!!) So he generally has NND's now, with the odd catch-up nap in the car. I wonder if I am a bit up-tight when we get a short night and should try and take a step back and wait to see what happens in the next night or two? What are your thoughts?
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We do, yes. Although for us it is a little different as she is further down the line. When she first started dropping naps we did it on days at home and let her nap at nursery for quite a long time after she dropped home naps. That way we could be flexible on days when my parents or I were looking after her and able to read her signs. We tried doing a quiet time, but it has never really worked for her, she will nowadays happily watch a film or something mid-afternoon, or cuddle for stories, which is great.
I do find she self-regulates and sometimes has a catch up nap mid day if we're out in the car, or she'll for to bed early and sleep longer at the end of the week.
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That's interesting... How far down the track are you now? I have noticed DS is getting better at handling OT, he's grumpy, but not falling to pieces all over the place, so perhaps he can handle it even if I think he can't!? He had sometimes done huge sleeps even though he will only usually do 11-12hrs ONS - his record was 14hrs - I nearly fell over backwards! That was after a huge week, so I guess he maybe can regulate better than I think he can....
Yes, quiet time here never works for us in bed or even in the bedroom so it involves watching a movie or playing with blocks or something not too stimulating... He just won't lie still long enough to recharge in bed!!
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Feeling or way through this transition still.... Jack's been unwell so has been napping for 1.5 hours every day for the last week and doing 11 hours at night as well. It was like having a normal toddler instead of a LSN one - lovely! Back to his bad old ways now though ;)
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has done this transition without significantly capping naps? I'm starting to think that might work best with J as he seems to need a good catch up after a NND. I'm not sure - we were just getting the hang of NNDs when he got ill, so I'm not sure how much of the OTness he had when he was ill was virus related, and how much was building anyway from NNDs and capped naps together, iykwim? But in the process of getting him better, I've moved his nap and bedtime earlier and although he's back to doing slightly short naps and nights and the odd NND, he's generally doing better than he was before. His day currently looks like:
WU: 6-6.15ish (in bed til 6.20)
Nap: 12.30 / 12.45ish for 1 hr probably
BT: 7 - will chat to himself til 7.30 if a bit UT
If he naps after 2.30 it tends to affect his nights so I was thinking of sticking with the earlier nap time and if he fights it, try again at 1.15 / 1.30ish, and if he still fights it then do a NND? Or should I keep trying til 2ish and just always wake by 2.30? He won't lie and chat to himself - if he doesn't want to nap he won't tolerate being in bed so I don't really want to spend an hour and a half each day repetitively putting him to bed and doing WIWO. Or should I just move his nap a bit later (back to 1ish) and just give him that one chance to nap?
Sorry, bit of a rambling post. Does it make sense?! Anyone else done anything similar? It's probably a moot point since last time he napped for any length of time at 12.30 he started shortening his naps to 35/40 minutes, in which case I'll have to push them back anyway, but just in case anyone has a story to share.... ;)
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So has anyone come across sleep needs increasing after transitioning to no nap? After the fiasco when I let her nap recently her bt has beem a bit all over the place :-/ she had an 8 pm bt a few days ago after a nap and wu moved to 8, then 7.20-8.30, 7.25-8.50 today. She had brief crying nws where she needed me these nights and she was sooo cranky today and seemed ot still (???). She was asleep by 7.20 again today so only 10.5h night....I hope this doesnr lead to ewu (before 8). I like the later bt and wu- it fits better with family life and ds's bt...
so has anyone else noticed this in their los?
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Aishi - DS's TS is definitely more now than when he was napping, haven't quite settled yet but we have fixed WU for preschool and also to make it the same time as DD, otherwise one will wake the other anyway.
LLJ - we have HSN here, or at least, short A times all the way through, but we found when the nap was refused we could just move it later, for a few months anyway. But DS was happy to chat to his teddies in bed. Anyway if I were you I'd try 1pm...
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Rach, E hasn't napped apart from the odd car nap very occasionally for several months now. I would say we started our 1-0 journey just after Christmas last year.
Aishi - we didn't cap naps at all as if really didn't suit E. We just moved them slowly later as per her sleep signals and tiredness and let her sleep as long as she wanted for naps (she always used to wake dead on 2 hours) and then would put down for BT about 4 hours after WU from nap. She didn't mind the short A to bed at first but in the summer she wanted to nap late and then didn't want to go to bed until 9.30/10pm so we shifted and let her go a full day without a nap. At first I timed these days for when I wanted to be out anyway, then it ended up being a couple of days a week.
The last naps to drop were on nursery days where she still napped at 12.30 with all the other kids - she was only sleeping for abou an hour, waking grumpy and not wanting to sleep at night. These are still our hardest day even without a nap as she is OS by BT, but we're getting there.
She definitely sleeps longer nights now than when she was napping. I think just before the drop we were averaging 11.5 hours in 24, now some dys it's 12.(/13 hour nights, sometimes 11.5 - she tends to catch up at the end of the week.
I hope that helps
N x
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LL&J - DD is hanging on to nap by doing 10-10.5hr nights and it is working really well. So her day usually looks like this
6-6:30am wakeup
1-2:30 Nap max, usually nap at 1:15 or 1:30 until 2:30
8-8:30pm bed
I have been waking at 2:30 to allow the longer nap and just doing bt later, because neither of us can handle no naps right now!
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Thanks everyone. I think things are settling here after illness - we may have a bit of a pattern emerging but we'll see. I think J will do at least one NND at nursery, but cos that's then a long and busy day, and he doesn't sleep well the next day at nursery either, he's then quite happy to nap at home. Fingers crossed anyway! So he's doing something very similar to your DD2, tink, but with a slightly earlier BT and WU, and with one NND a week atm. I've moved his nap nearer to 1pm as well cos predictably it was starting to shorten at 12.30. No nap refusals at home this week though :) So I think I'll stick with the routine I posted above (but with slightly later nap) for a while now. Well, as long as J lets me, anyway!
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Gah.... PineapplePrincess, (as I know your DS is doing quite long days now, and we were always qui similar early on in the 1-0 with our boys sleep). I'm wondering if I need to push days out a little longer as we have started getting Short nights (10.5/11hrs). He woke at 5.45am today, but was quite happy, as he has been the past week or so after shorter nights. (6-6.30am Wu where we were getting 7-8am wu's and 11.5-12hrs ons, 11 as the minimum) We have had long one night which was about 11.75hrs, in the past week. The rest more like 11. Thoughts?
Also, not sure whether to hope he takes a cn today or just go for an ebt? 10.5hrs is not a very long night and would mean today is at least 12.75hrs...... Which sounds long. He has a bit of a runny nose too, so maybe that's playing into ? Who knows, but wish we could get a pattern sorted!
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Dd has been doing set bt at 6.45/7 for the last few weeks with mixed wus (6-7.15). Shes recovering from a cold and some ot and did 7-8.50 today (i woke so bt wouldnt be too late).
What time would you do bt tonight? 7 seems too early considering she woke so late....
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I'd personally play it by ear, probably 7.30 at the earliest? So make sure she eats in good time for that and then if she still seems full of energy maybe you could string out the BT routine a bit, longer bath, more stories or something? When we're not sure this is what we try to do so that we don't suddenly find he's already OT but not ready for bed. I doubt she'd complain about more stories or whatever you do at BT, just make sure she knows it's a one off? I wouldn't go later than 8 though, I think, since you're doing set BT, but someone may disagree with me on that!
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Thanks trimbler. That sounds like a good idea. Shes usually quite good with bt even if sje is a little ut she will just chatter and sing so guess thats worth a try....
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Let us know how it goes :)
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Didnt go well. She was asleep by 7.30 but had a long unhappy nw at 1.30-2.30. Woke at 6.50 this morning and not going back to sleep which indicates ot too so only 9h ish night minus the nw....oh well
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Hi ladies,
I have now locked this topic as we have reached 30 pages. Please could you continue to provide lovely support to each other here:
Support for dropping the nap part 12