BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: kayra on May 23, 2014, 18:33:11 pm
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here we go...
I wasn't able to BF DS but have been more confident about trying this time round, however the whole twins things does add a different dimension ::)
So far I've been feeding but we have had to supplement to make sure they don't lose too much weight and initially it seemed my milk was slow to come in. So although I was feeding they just wouldn't settle to sleep. Since we've been supplementing (more and more it seems) they've been better at settling for a decent nap/sleep. (I've also been pumping to aid stimulation, they've been getting that too)
I met with a lactation consultant today and she said that if we give formula it will decrease my milk production. She said it looks like I have enough milk to feed them, however although my milk does seem to be more/better than a couple of days ago, the question to seems whether the twins are able to get it all because they're pre-term thus not sucking all that strongly. The LC didn't seem to see that as a problem but did indicate that it most likely meant be basically BFing round the clock.....
Now with 1 baby that seems hard enough but I don't know if I can do that with 2! How does one ever get into and EASY with that? And although I have a BF pillow for twins etc I just can't imagine being in that position for hours on end.. inevitably they're dosing throughout the feed etc.
So, I don't know what my question is :-[ I really want to bf them but can't quite cope with what that means for the next weeks, till their suck is stronger and they can fill up more quickly. My mum says we could carry on with more supplementing at night so we get some sleep at least and then during the day spend more time on the breast. That kind of makes sense to me but it does take me back to the question of an EASY, this afternoon I was basically feeding one or the other sometimes both at the same time for about 6 hours straight, they're finally sleeping now but I haven't the foggiest idea of when the next feed might be..I realise they're barely a week old but I think the 'unknownness' is hard on my planning personality :-\
sorry it's ended up as a bit of a brain dump, can't think properly, any thoughts would be appreciated :-*
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Hi no btdt but lots of respect for you trying to feed them. If they can't get all the milk maybe you can pump at the end of the feed and give them that so they are getting it all still and it will stimulate you to make more than if you top up with formula. Do you get enough for your oh to give the rest on a bottle while you get one decent stretch of sleep?
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thanks!
I have been pumping either half way between feeds or at the end of a feed but it's no way enough to make up for a whole feed, I've only been getting about 15mls or so when I've pumped.
If I decide to let them suck more during the day, ie an hour or so per time, I don't think I'll have much time to pump afterwards and I just can't bring myself to pump at night :(
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You probably aren't getting enough rest with all that, but rest when you can and make sure you eat and drink plenty too. Do toy need 1000 extra cal to feed twins if you need 500 extra for one? If so you will need to be eating very regularly I imagine.
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Oh Kayra, you are doing so well!
Here is a little article about milk supply and settling for naps afterwards by Emma, who used to mod here but is now an LC.
Babies not going down for naps after a feed means really that they want to stay with you, going down better after a ff really means that they are having a harder time to digest it. But you have started mixed feeding, and with having twins, that might be your best choice for getting rest. Have a wee look!
http://www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com/twitter-and-blog/low-milk-supply-101
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Hi honey, I have no btdt and didn't manage brilliantly with BF and E anyway, but my mum BF my twin brothers and did supplement the whole time. I know that an LC will always warn you of the risk that this will deplete supply and I suppose they may get more used I a bottle, but I suppose for me having been through a horrible two months feeling guilty every time E went near a bottle, I think I would want to tell myself to remember that what works for you, works for you. I.e. Do today what you feel you can cope with today and no more. Get lots of rest, eat lots, and try your hardest not to worry about the next day or the one after that.
And as for EASY, you can worry about that later, they are so small and should arguably still be with you 24/7 so a lot of cuddling now can't be a bad thing (unless you need a break).
Not overly helpful practical advice I know, but it comes with ((((hugs))))
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thanks so much.
I guess I "need" them to settle for a decent sleep after they've fed even though I understand that the fact that they wont unless they're supplemented or have been feeding for ages doesnt mean i dont have enough milk, does that make sense?
not sure about the calories but i'm not cutting back by any means and i'm drinking alot.
Naomi you're right about figuring out each day at a time, goes against my nature but it seems its the only way to survive at the moment.
they're so dosey at the breast bless them!
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Kayra your AMAZING :-*
No btdt obviously but I have a friend who Bf her twins. She said she had to Bf them at the same time (where possible) or it was just all.day.long.
She got a lot of support through LLL and in Nz we have a FB support pages 'breastfeeding NZ' do you have LLL there - maybe they have other twin mums who you could meet and talk to to for advice?
Make sure you have lots of good fats in high arvo too keep your supply and energy up. .. Get that baking roster going (not you baking obviously though!) ;) I know it's not always practical but do you have someone at here to support you most the day while things settle?
(((Hugs))) and as Naomi says, do what works for you, one day at a time and you'll be at 3 mths in no time I promise :-*
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Hi Kayra,
So much love and support to you and your babas, you're doing a great job. I have no experience of bfing twins, but I have a friend who does :) and she is a now bfing peer supporter for twin mamas so I cheekily asked her to have a look at your post.
Here's what she said:
She sounds amazing and it's great she's seeking support.
It's great that she mentions she has a planning brain as she's going to need it! Please pass on that it's entirely possible and extremely time efficient in the long term to establish bf, though it can be a challenge to start with.
One way she can feed on demand is to lie in bed and prop herself up a little with pillows and both babies can feed from her breasts with their bodies lying down her body. This gives the skin to skin and opportunity for her to dose a little if safe needs it. Or watch a box set....
(google 'laid back bfing twins or biological nuturing twins' for positioning ideas... here's a link http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/)
If her milk supply is a concern she can express and bottle feed the milk to give herself a break from feeds and an opportunity for others to help. Some mothers feed one baby at a time and express from the other breast at the same time to provide milk for the other babies next feed. Expressing can be a great habit to establish to allow for breaks and to increase supply but it isn't for everyone.
Tandem feeding can be a challenge in the early days, once babies have built strength and latch this can be more easily done. The early days of establishing bf are a challenge and especially as she has a little one already she should not feel bad about supplementing. As long as she maintains her supply and perhaps expresses at the times if the formula feeds and builds up a supply if her own milk this can then replace the formula feeds. There can be a lot of concern about nipple confusion for young babies but most babies manage this very well, bottle feeds for younger babies can be easier, though latching them on for a short while to give them some time on the breast can be helpful. This can also make expressing afterwards easier too, though this would mean an extra pair if hands would be needed and is not always practical.
In terms of weight gain charts are based on bottle fed babies so aren't always representative though it's anxiety provoking with ore term babies. Twins are exceptionally strong, they've had to be right from the beginning, as are there mothers! She might enjoy reading this article in the twilight hours for some comfort
http://www.economist.com/node/18678953
If she wants she can contact the Tamba breastfeeding peer support device which is free for all twin mums whether they are members or not tambabreastfeeding@gmail.com she can speak to someone/text/email whatever she prefers. There is also an information booklet free to download with advice.
http://www.tamba.org.uk/Parenting/First-Year/Feeding
HTH. Thinking of you and sending cuddles to the LOs.
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There are sedatives in breastmilk and once your milk has caught up with having two, just in a few days, they will settle much better after a feed! I would suggest a ESA instead of EAS for now and worry about everything else later! Much later.
Great support links! You might always also want to supplement, which is absolutely fine, they are getting so much goodness from you already!
Lots of hugs, one (part of the) day at a time!
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just in a few days,
Yes, this is very important to remember - things change very quickly in the first weeks, and particularly around milk!
Take care of yourself!
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Hi Kayra, you've gotten great advice already, but I wanted to add in some (((hugs))) and tell you you're doing a wonderful job!!
I guess I "need" them to settle for a decent sleep after they've fed even though I understand that the fact that they wont unless they're supplemented or have been feeding for ages doesnt mean i dont have enough milk, does that make sense?
Yes, this stood out to me because I've been there. Charlie is the least settled of all my kids, even from the beginning, yet he was the one to regain birth weight the quickest, so clearly was getting the milk he needed. It sure does help to have a full tummy, but there are a lot of other factors going into it, so don't let those thoughts weigh you down.
I too would try not to even think about EASY right now. They're not old enough to really have any A time anyway (although they may just because that's what they do). Just concentrate on feeding them and getting some rest for yourself. Let others take them and hold them to sleep or put them in a rocking cradle or swing or have them dose with you. The routine will come with time.
Keep up the good work, mama, and relish the snuggles! :-*
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thanks for the encouragement. My parents are with me 24/7 and have been helping with everything, I'd have gone crazy without them!
There isn't exactly LLL here, but the LC I met with yesterday is basically the same thing. I think what I struggle with with LLL kind things is that they tend to really frown upon supplementing and I feel as if I'm expected to kill myself for the sake of breastfeeding (i know i exaggerate, and the LC yesterday was actually very nice but at the end of the day what she suggests ie complete demand feeding with twins would be so hard 24/7.)
Thanks for asking your friend Anne!
I do want to sync them but like your friend says it's hard till they get better at latching. I must say each feed they seem to latch better. I will look at those links, thanks.
I nurse them every feed at least 30minutes and then they get a formula top up of 30-45mls, sometimes even more, so there's never a time they only get the bottle.
I must say, I'm very tired, trending the bags under eyes look ;) but emotionally I feel well and I'm SO thankful for that. With DS I was just so overwhelmed by everything I vividly remember wishing my mum would take him and bring him back a few months later. This time round I'm just calmer-mind you I did have a moment on tuesday where I had knots in my stomach and felt like I was drowning but thankfully that passed and I'm doing ok overall
it's taken me all day to finish this post so just seen the other replies :P thats interesting about the sedatives in the milk, didnt know that.
yes the easy is out the window for the time being, i cant even guess when the next feed will be and there isnt any a time like you say, mostly a very long e and a variable s.
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Hugs and kudos to you for BFing twins.
As pps say I would not even worry about EASY anytime soon.
At 1wk old they probably only need about 45-60ml (1.5-2oz) of breast milk so I would definitely consider cutting back on the top ups.
http://kellymom.com/bf/pumpingmoms/pumping/milkcalc/
Can you do anything to keep them awake during feeds so they take more from the breast? I was advised to do things like put a wet flannel in DS1's head, blow on his head or cheek (not his mouth or nose so he can't breathe), strip him down to his nappy and tickle his feet.
The hormones that promote milk production are highest in the middle of the night so those are the feeds that will help stimulate your production the most. Therefore if you can bear to I would try to bf for those feeds as much as you can.
As pps say things change so quickly at this age with BFing that it really is a case of what seems unbearable now will be better next week and even better the week after. 6wks seems to be the turning point for many in terms of feeds settling down into a pattern.
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I have a friend who breast fed twins. She has already BF 2 previous children, but found with her smaller boys (they were about 6.5lb compared to her 9lb singletons) that they were sleepy and it was much harder to get going. She pumped and supplemented, but eventually did get there :) :). They were a few months old before they were exclusively breast fed - so maybe slowly does it??? I think a lot of her tops ups were ebm after the first few weeks though.
Obviously milk can be a bit slower after a section. Can't remember for the life of me if Clare had a section or not ::).
I agree with Ali that the top ups might be a bit much though - you just want the odd oz to keep things going really.
Personally I think EASY is out the window until 6-8 weeks. Always seems pretty pointless with all those changes and growth spurts ;).
DS was a 5.5lb teeny baby, and starting BFing was tricky. He was also very sleepy on the breast. But once he woke up at 6 weeks there really was no closing those eyes again!! I know your twins are a good healthy weight, but these smaller babies still are a bit different IMO. Megan was 7.5lb and VERY different. Better latch, stronger suck, just easier!
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Just popping on to send good BF vibes for today! :-*
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ITA with Liz about smaller babies. James was my smallest and those first weeks were so tricky as he wanted to sleep all the time. And then I felt like he just needed to get bigger and eat all the time! :)
(((Hugs))) you're doing great!
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Supplementing is absolutely fine if that is what it takes to survive and enjoy! FWIW, I read recently on one of their pages that if 50% is breastmilk, the babies get all the benefits as well!
Having helpers there is the MOST natural thing. In most other countries people would consider it mental to try and do it yourself. I tried to be supermum after my section and within four days I was in hospital with a seizure. Don't do ANY housework, but delegate (as leaving everything would stress you out, find people to help with the housework instead of the holding the twins, which is what everyone really wants to do instead ;) ). Sleep as much as you can, lay down with them both snuggled up to you and big boy with you with a toy or book or TV or something.
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thanks everyone!
Yes I feel that the top ups are too much but they want to take it and often don't settle without it, they haven't thrown up or anything either. But I will try and decrease it more. I am feeling hopeful that in a couple months I might be able to ebf, but i'm not putting pressure on myself. I'd say they're easily getting 50% breastmilk.
I'm not doing any housework, bless her my mum is doing the vast majority with my dad and dh helping out, friends are bringing food off and on.
Lena who is smaller does seem especially concentrated on eating and sleeping and growing. Mika has grown loads! They're suck is getting stronger so I'm hoping that once they get less sleepy as they nurse they'll get more and more of my milk. During the day they're latched on so frequently I daren't pump incase they want to nurse and I don't have much to give..
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I'm sure it's draining and difficult but you make it sound lovely somehow. You're doing an amazing job!!
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Glad you have lots of help Kayra, sounds like things are going really well! I wouldn't be worried about pumping and having none left...that is the magical thing with bf - they never truly run out ;)
Okay and wow - one week old twins and you have tickers up?? High five on that!
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Kayra you're doing AMAZING :D no advice, but many (((hugs))) and lots of support for you xx
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hehe, yes I probably should have been doing something more productive but fancied doing the tickers ;)
I think another nice thing about having my parents here is that as I'm sitting around breastfeeding during the day I have people to chat with without worrying about my boobs hanging out the whole time :P
So since bf at night is more important what do you think if at every feed I gave them both sides? So instead of half an hourish (I don't pull them off at 30min they often bob off around then themselves but it doesn't seem to mean they're full) on one side, how about I did 15min per side (to stimulate both sides at each feed), or would that stop them from getting the hind milk?
I actually pumped this afternoon and got a fair bit more from one side so that was encouraging. I did end up feeding Lena on that side just an hour after pumping and she seemed to find enough to suck on. I wanted to give less formula but they just kept rooting! I bf again, still rooting, i don't understand how they can take so much!
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Do you think some of it is just comfort sucking? Do they take a soother at all? I know here they don't recommend a soother until bf is well established but with DD1 & DD3 they had one from day one and it turned out fine (erm besides the soother addiction later that is :P).
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Do they take a soother at all? I know here they don't recommend a soother until bf is well established but with DD1 & DD3 they had one from day one and it turned out fine
Yup my LO1 needed a soother for comfort sucking, he had it from day 3 or so, he found it really calming, and he was a touchy baby so needed every bit of help he could get. He didn't suffer from any 'confusion' as a result either!
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What about when they bob off after half hour offering the second breast then? I would definitely let them drain the first side rather than switch them based on the clock. As you say they will get less hind milk if you switch sides too early.
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Do you think some of it is just comfort sucking? Do they take a soother at all? I know here they don't recommend a soother until bf is well established but with DD1 & DD3 they had one from day one and it turned out fine (erm besides the soother addiction later that is :P).
Same here :P
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havent used a dummy yet for reasons you mentioned, it could be comfort sucking but they are often rooting too. if they're not hungry yet not settling generally just being held for a good while settles them-my parents are able to do that. DS1 did use a dummy to fall asleep in his first month but then wouldnt touch it, but b/c he just had the bottle i think overall he was getting less suck time than these guys.
i do try tickling, blowing etc sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt..
my mum and i think that M can get more off my breast than L which makes sense she's a fair bit smaller, although their birthweight wasnt hugely different she lost more and he regained sooner so now is at least half a kg more than her if not more. so i'll be giving her more of what i pump.
we're renting a hospital style pump today (they were out of stock last week so had to make do with a regular one) hopefully that'll help a bit.
Last night wasnt too good, I'm looking forward to when i can synch them.
unfortunately they find my left breast harder to latch onto-i remember on the few days I bf'ed DS1 that was an issue too-so now i'm unsure about switching sides, during the night at least, i think it'll be just too stressful. but i could try during the day after they've bobbed off like you say.
thanks for all the support!
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Perhaps try a different hold if you can (not sure if that is possible if you are feeding two at once) so that they are lying on the side they are normally when feeding from the right breast. Hope that makes sense.
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With time they will latch both sides without issue. I remember Jacob having a favourite in the early days as well - and that meant that side ended up harder and firmer and more difficult to latch again :-\. Smaller babies with lazier latches again I think ::).
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You can always hand express a little milk to soften the breast a little, if you think it's too full and a bit tricky to latch. Added bonus that flowing milk definitely encourages the LOs!
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The growth spurts in the early days come often -- it's often the cause of a rough night!
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i think it's because of the nipple, my breasts are actually quite soft. at first that worried me making me think i didnt have milk but that doesnt seem the case. L seems to be able to latch on fairly well but has a relatively weak suck. I use the regular cradle hold and sometimes the football hold, essentially they can do both tho i prefer the cradle. I think i just need to be patient about them getting strong enough to suck better. M will be getting to that point before her so I'm going to need to be careful about her getting her share too.
another rough night, i didnt know they could have growth spurts already i thought that was way down the line...they do seem to merge feeds quite a bit.
M's got a weepy eye :( we're wiping it with cotton and sterile water, if its not over by friday when we go to the dr she'll prescribe sthg i imagine. he also snorts a lot, it had decreased when we came home from the hospital but it seems to have increased again :(
the hospital pump is pretty good so thats encouraging, i might even be able to convince myself to pump once during the night...
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(((Hugs))), Kayra, you're doing great! Hope M clears up quickly. :-*
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M's eye seems to be getting better thanks :)
Should my milk be continually increasing? it doesn't seem to be... I know the 'yield' isn't the most reliable test but even when I pump 2 "full" breasts I'm only getting about 50cc's, that's what 1 of them eats....after sucking...
Last night they actually slept well but unfortunately they were totally out of synch, so by the time her 2hr feed was done (doze-wake up cycle) he was ready to get up.. I feel that we need to synch them but can't bear to wake one up, should I just bite the bullet? Is there an age/weight I should wait for before doing that? Being in synch one feed doesn't automatically mean it's going to be the next feed so we're talking a continual waking up etc...
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I'd say that has to be your decision Kayra, I don't think there's any age/weight cutoff recommended, at least none I'm aware of. I look after a lot of slightly prem twins in hospital (they are usually on the ward with parents from around 34/35 weeks - aware this is a bit different to being at home) and usually from the word go we try to sync them as best we can to maximise rest for mummy. Yes that does usually mean waking them rather than letting them fully demand feed but that way seems to make it more manageable. It just seems like the rules have to be a bit different for twins you know? Your rest is every bit as important, if not more so than theirs as you need it to be making all that milk for them :D. Maybe you could pick a time when they are somewhat close together in the time they wake (30 mins or so) and then just take it from there? Obviously you'd never hold out on a feed longer than necessary if they were clearly hungry either though so maybe you'll just have to follow the lead of whoever wakes first?
I have so much respect for you, you are doing GREAT!
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so you synch them from early days?
i think one of my concerns is that they're dosey enough when they wake up hungry, how am i going to feed them if i'm waking them up iyswim? seems like it'd be relatively easier with a bottle but hard to get them to latch on.... on the other hand nights which are completely out of synch are killers. day time doesnt matter too much.
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Question: What would stimulate my milk supply more, non-vigorous breastfeeding for roughly 30min which I'm assuming is not emptying the breast, or more vigorous pumping which comes closer to emptying the breast?
seems so unfair that a mother of newborns needs plenty of rest to produce milk and yet the very essence of newborns forbids rest :P Just as well they're cute ;)
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Hi Kayra
I was exclusively expressing for 5.5 months. I think at under 2 weeks, they don't really eat that much so what you have produced is right for them right now I think. Maybe you can relax a little. It sounds to me like you are doing great. Hmm I wonder if you can PM Shiv. Take as much rest as possible now. xx
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seems so unfair that a mother of newborns needs plenty of rest to produce milk and yet the very essence of newborns forbids rest :P
Definitely! Just keep taking all the help offered to you! (((Hugs))) :-*
Question: What would stimulate my milk supply more, non-vigorous breastfeeding for roughly 30min which I'm assuming is not emptying the breast, or more vigorous pumping which comes closer to emptying the breast?
Both have their place, but I think if you're wanting to increase your supply, you want extra stimulation and emptying the breast. I've often heard to choose a couple times a day and pump after you've fed for 10-15min to increase your supply. I guess you'd have to pump after feeding them both.
i think one of my concerns is that they're dosey enough when they wake up hungry, how am i going to feed them if i'm waking them up iyswim? seems like it'd be relatively easier with a bottle but hard to get them to latch on.... on the other hand nights which are completely out of synch are killers. day time doesnt matter too much.
I agree with Katherine that you need to decide what's best and what you can mange. If you think waking one to BF would be difficult, would that be a time that pumping and offering a bottle be a solution? Claire was a super sleepy baby and I hated waking her to feed... it was such hard work. But, in hindsight I might've been willing to pump and feed a bottle if it got the job done quicker and easier, even though pumping is a hassle.
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thanks!
They actually woke up from their afternoon nap together so I tandem breastfed them, both of them bobbed off at nearly half an hour like clockwork. While the others supplemented I pumped and got practically nothing! So they are actually draining the breast! So that's good news. Bad news is it's not enough for them :( as they are still having almost a full feeds-worth afterwards, so I'm guessing each breast is producing less than an ounce... Koe, I know you said they shouldn't be eating that much but these guys are! I don't know if it's a "we need to catch up" thing or what but they are eating! :P
Anyway, I'll keep at it for the time being, may still increase eh?
Normally what I pump I give at the next feed so they get less formula that feed but I guess I could hold onto it and have it for the night...I'll need to think on that. The more I think about it though I don't want to wake L if M wakes first because she's actually a good sleeper, I'd be more upto getting him up to synch with her. Overall I just need to keep in perspective that they are still very small and I can't rush things, I just need to accept that it's going to be hard and tiring for the time being and do my best to work around that and be thankful for all the help I've got...
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When they come off the breast and before the bottle do they seem satisfied? The thing is the bottle is much easier for them to drink down and they may take more than they really need before their body signals the brain that they are full.
Also, it is totally possible to have loads of milk and not get much via pumping - I had oversupply all three times but my body just does not respond to a pump well enough to get a good letdown (but if a baby cries anywhere near me watch out - doesn't even have to be my own baby!).
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Not being able to pump doesn't necessarily mean the breast is empty and there is no milk there. Some ladies just don't work well with a pump. Some people can pump literally nothing, ever and still EBF their kids. A pump is not a reliable indication of supply at all so please do not think that what you pump equals what you are producing. It does not. Even if you aren't actually pumping any milk out it is still good stimulation for your breasts and will still help your supply overall.
Babies need more formula per feed than they do breast milk so the amount of formula they drink is not an indication of how much breast milk they would need.
Well done, sounds like you are doing great. :-*
Posted with Heidi :)
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normally when i pump i do get sthg, this was after they'd fed, like you said there's probably more in the breast but i'm guessing its not a huge amount...
after they've fed they do seem satisfied but not enough to settle properly, good point about the formula amount tho I'd forgotten about that. so if they were just having breastmilk how many oz would they 'normally' want?
ugh i would be so much easier if i just had more milk....
thanks for the encouragement :*
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Hugs hun, you're doing fab :-* is there any chance do you think the fact they're not fully settling after a breastfeed is not that they're not getting enough, but just that's how babies are sometimes? I know a paci was discussed earlier on in the thread but I wonder if that would be worth a go to see if it's really just sucking need rather than hunger need? Or maybe starting to reduce the (formula) top-ups? Just thinking that if you are worried supply could be an issue, the best things to do are to feed from the breast and to pump, even if you're not getting a lot off, rather than supplementing with a lot of formula which may in the end negatively impact supply. Not that mixed feeding is an issue at all if that's what you want to do, but if you are wanting to try to EBF then it makes sense to do everything possible to maximise supply if you see what I mean?
Again, with the caveat that hospital is a bit different to home, what we normally do with our twins on the ward is to encourage synched feeds from day 1 (maybe staggered by 30 mins or so) and generally wake to feed 3 hourly. For mums hoping to breastfeed we encourage them to put LOs to the breast for 30 mins or so, then to pump, then to top up the feed (with EBM as much as possible, formula to make up the difference). We tend to work out how much milk we'd expect them to need based on body weight, and in the initial stages give that full amount as a top up. Once LOs are becoming stronger at breastfeeding, a little more awake, and gaining weight, we often try cutting back on the top-ups to half volumes, and then see what weight gain etc is like after another 2-3 days. And then trial not giving the top-ups at all. Could you maybe adapt something like that?
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There is some useful info on kellymom about estimating amounts. You'll see that the maximum stomach capacity of a 1wo is only 45-60ml (1.5-2oz). http://kellymom.com/bf/pumpingmoms/pumping/milkcalc/
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Oh Kayra, you are so determined! Breastmilk is a demand and supply thing, is it possible for you to just lie in bed with L on one side, M on the other, topless, and let them suckle as much as they want in the day? You can always doze as long as you put them a wee distance away. Forget pumping, just concentrate on feeding and synching.
I am only feeding one, but certainly have enough for two, boobs are amazing! They will catch up.
Nights are different, we did EBM at first, but a bit of formula won't harm them and you can get some rest!
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is there any chance do you think the fact they're not fully settling after a breastfeed is not that they're not getting enough, but just that's how babies are sometimes? I know a paci was discussed earlier on in the thread but I wonder if that would be worth a go to see if it's really just sucking need rather than hunger need?
Was wondering the same thing when I read your last reply. This was Charlie for sure... he seemed hungry 24/7 the first few weeks, as he really liked to suck. If they're already getting a bottle, I don't think offering a paci is going to lead to any confusion, so it might be worth a try. Also, here you can visit the LC (or go to a BF group) and weigh your baby both before and after a feed to see how much milk they're taking in. I've found that very helpful in the early days with all three.
More (((hugs))), hon, you're doing so well! :-*
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thanks for the encouragement, you guys are great! :-*
i should dig out the paci, like you said if they're already using a bottle whats the big deal..
last night was actually really good so that helps, I think DDs going to be an angel baby ;) after the wee hours of the morning feed my dad settled DD who's fairly easy and i took DS2 who's relatively fussy, he was rooting but I was positive he'd had enough so I just held him firmly in the glider and he finally went off and slept nicely :)
this afternoon i'll see if i can try surrounding myself with pillows and have some free-suck time.
curious to see how much they're going to weigh at the drs tomorrow.
Thanks for the link Ali, I think what confuses me is if they need say 2oz of breast milk isn' that also the capacity of their stomach? So although 2oz of formula doesn't equal 2oz of breastmilk in 'quality' isn't it the same volume they're taking in one go at the end of the day? So these guys are having just under an oz from nursing and then getting close to 2oz formula, so although they're getting the equivalent of 2oz breastmilk they're volume capacity seems to be closer to 3oz, does that make sense???
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I suspect our body is more intelligent than just going by volume to have a full feeling. It senses water, nutrients, etc. the hormones also. Trust their little bodies as they are the most sensitive and we seem to lose these sensitivities as we grow as we don't need to rely on them when we learn about our environment. I hope that makes sense.
Paci would be good for exercising the sucking. All your love and patience for them help to build up the sense of safety in this foreign world. :-*.
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Kayra, please bear in mind that pumping does not reflect what the babies are getting.
Don't get hung up on measuring volume. Look at the babies and see how they're doing. :)
Hope the laid-back breastfeeding/lots of pillows worked well for you.
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ITA with Anne, I couldn't pump much at all when Z was tiny but I had tons of milk x
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How are you doing, Kayra? Thinking about you and your two little loves. :-*
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Hi kayra!!
I BF my twins. C would never take a bottle but Z had formula at night for a couple of weeks until she refused it, then they were both exclusively BF. I've said some of this to you on the twins thread but I'll say it again so the wise BF people can check I'm right!
Tandem feeding worked brilliantly for us and we still do it now. I spent days on end sitting on the sofa with my feeding pillow and just let them feed, doze, feed. My DH was there so I watched TV, ate and sometimes dozed off myself (he would watch the babies as they can fall off the cushion!!). I never pumped as I just couldn't get milk out that way, I would just let mine comfort suck instead. My boobs were soft and I worried about that too but it didn't seem to matter! Growth spurts were horrific but I just gritted my teeth and kept going, and all of a sudden things got easy and they have been ever since! I had a good side and a bad side, and just fed my better feeder from the bad side and the worse feeder from the good side until they got better at it. Then they would each have one boob a day, then I would swap each feed.
There are a few things I would say though. Firstly, I used to get really stressed by being touched all the time. So in the evening at 7 I would hand them over to DH and mum or someone who would carry them in a sling while I had a bath and a meal! That saved my bacon. Secondly, it was a long time before they would go even 3 hours between feeds. Thirdly, it is possible to BF twins but that doesn't mean it's the right thing for your family if it is too stressful.
I have to go now but will watch this thread and see how it's going.
Please ask any questions you want, or PM me if you would prefer. And good luck!!
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Lilyrose it sounds like your the expert so if it worked for you it must be right :)
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thanks for checking in!
friday we had our check at the drs so any kind of routine we had went right out the window which created a bad night too but we're sorting ourselves out now. they've gained weight nicely so all is fine in that aspect.
i havent been able to just have them on me for freesucking, the timing just didnt work with ds's school hours etc.
they continue to bob off just under half an hour sometimes earlier and its pretty much impossible to get them to latch on again but they do take a fair bit of the bottle. but if they do just comfortsuck for longer i let them. i pump twice a day to make sure they're getting as much breastmilk as possible.
they're pretty much in sync most of the time which is good!
LiliyRose thanks for your input, interesting-and wonderful- that they ended up being exclusively BF!
I must confess I don't think I'm ever going to get to the point of exclusively BFing, and I've come to terms with that. You might think it's a bit early for me to say that and I'm by no means stopping bfinf or pumping, it's just the way things are looking-in my opinion. As they get bigger and start a bit of A time I'm going to need to start sleep training them and the way I see it is that if I'm unsure about whether they've sucked enough i'm going to struggle sleep training them and I just can't cope with that stress amidst DS1 and everything else. Sleep deprivation really effects my mood, I need them to settle and sleep at night and I know that the relatively good nights we're having (2+hrs of sleep) is due to the formula top-up......
Like I said I'm not stopping by any means, just taking the pressure off so to speak and possibly choosing the less than ideal scenario for the sake of my sanity and joy...
DS2 has used the dummy a couple of times, it's quite funny he holds is infront of it (it seems) so it doesn't fall out :P
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Your sanity is way more important than how they are fed. I can think of lots of dreadful ways to feed them - seawater, vodka, human blood - and 2 good ways which is BF and FF. You are doing brilliantly and you have to do what works for you as a family!
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LilyRose, you are amazing!
Kayra, you don't have to EBF, you are supermum anyway!
I do find bf is relaxing time, so I just indulge it.Put a nice TV show on my laptop, be comfy and just let him suckle. Beats dishes anytime, lol.
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haha ;D LilyRose, thanks ;)
I don't find the breastfeeding itself stressful-though I find 2 it is more complicated, doing them at the same time isn't as emotionally satisfying as snuggling up with 1- it's more having the question mark in my head of 'have they had enough? Whats next?' etc.
Having said that today they have rebelled at sleeping in their beds despite having had enough to eat ::) lets hope its not a sign of whats to come tonight....
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Gah, wrote a long post and lost it! No time to write loads now but my points were:
1. I know what you mean about worrying about what's next. For me my DH and mum were there for the first few weeks so could change nappies, bring me snacks, etc, so I could just snuggle up and feed. It was almost like still being pregnant, they were held constantly by me or DH (except at bedtime) for weeks, and then they napped in bouncy chairs in the living room or in the pram so we were always together. Not sure how this would work with an older child though!
2. WRT ST I didn't do any until they were 4 months old, and by then I knew they were getting loads of milk because they were growing well. So I never worried about them being hungry! They were 6lb at birth, followed the 9th centile until I started solids then jumped up to the 50th. Remember those centiles are for FF singletons though so they won't be that relevant for your 2 at the moment.
3. Any breast milk is good. Even if you stop now you have done an amazing thing! What really made me keep going is firstly that I found bottles, sterilising, etc v anxiety-inducing so was much more relaxed feeding. Secondly tandem feeding was easy for us whereas tandem bottle feeding was v difficult and I knew that I would be on my own a lot with the babies so wanted to BF if possible (my DH works shifts). Thirdly they were good feeders (Z had a rocky start but became awesome) and I was vvvv lucky never to have any mastitis, etc. Fourthly (!) I found it was a brilliant way for all 3 of us to have a cuddle - when they were tiny and couldn't hold their heads I didn't feel confident to hold both at once in my arms and if I was just holding one I was desperate for the other one! Fifthly (getting silly now!) my DH is a great believer in BF and really encouraged me when things got tough. We had a "one day at a time" policy which really helped. Finally, I had a BFIng email counsellor from TAMBA who was AMAZING and really, really helped me keep going.
I had never heard of BW, EASY, or anything like that until a few weeks ago. I knew other methods were not for me so I did attachment parenting almost by default as I didn't know any other way. This meant I had very low expectations of sleep etc. And that made it easier for me perversely as I just kept going. I think there is an enormous amount of guilt around BFing and (please don't shoot me!) I don't really think it's THAT important in the developed world. My midwife told me that PND is the biggest health problem in my age group in my area, and it is much more prevalent with twins, so I think that is WAY more dangerous to you all than FF. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was easy for me but I had a LOT of support, and if it had made me stressed or unhappy I would have stopped in a heartbeat and not felt any guilt at all. Twins is amazing but it is so, so hard, and you need all your mental health and resilience to deal with the them. The way they are fed is a tiny part of parenting, and in a year's time will be completely unimportant.
I hope this makes sense, I really have to go! Sorry if I've said anything stupid!!
xxxxxxxx
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thanks SO much Lily :-*
You've done an amazing job and I can only hope to live to tell the tale like you ;)
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Great post lily rose. Lovely to see such support :)
The WHO actually released growth charts in 2006 which are now based on EBF babies so those are the ones your health professional should be using Growth Charts for EBF babies announced by the WHO
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Great post lily rose. Lovely to see such support :)
Ditto! :)
While BF may be the ideal, honey, what's ideal for your family is definitely your sanity and joy. You have done wonderful so far and will continue to do so, I'm sure of it. Keep up the good work! :-*
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Amazing post, Lilyrose!
Hugs Kayra. I'm sure TAMBA would also offer you BFing advice by email if you wanted or needed it. But you're getting great support here, and as all pps have said, you've *already* done an amazing job for your two. Do what you need to. (())
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I'm blushing!! ;D
The other thing I forgot to say is that I used to worry because z would always take a few oz of formula even after what I thought was a full BF. But then one time I BF her after a full bottle and she took a reasonable BF! She was just a v sucky baby, now she has found her thumb it is never out of her mouth (grrr!) so I don't think it was hunger really at all! Also, kellymom (my guru!!!) said that because bottle feeding is so easy for the baby they will take the milk kind of just because it's there (hope I understood that right!!) so it doesn't necessarily mean they were hungry for it, just opportunistic if that makes sense!!
Hope it's going well!
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I think you understood perfectly LilyRose. We say that all the time about babies taking a bottle after a bf because it is so easy.
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I've been following along on this thread and just HAVE to say that I take my hat off to you ladies - lilyrose & kayra 👒
You ladies are AMAZING!!!
Kayra, I've no idea how difficult and busy a time this must be for you but agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. Keep your chin up and trust your mammy instincts - they're generally not too far off the mark!! You know yourself and your family best. Xx.
Lilyrose, I love and believe in BF for all the reasons you've outlined but would have a mentality similar to you from the point of view that "if it's working for your family, then its right for your family. If not - then there are options ...combination feeding/ formula feeding". I also think your point about PND being more of a danger is very true.
Well done ladies - you should be so proud of all you are doing. 👏👏👏
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Yay thank you!! Everyone here is so nice!! I did honestly have so much help though, don't think I should get quite so much credit!!!
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Yeah i dont know how anyone can do it without support..its challenging enough with!
Rough night last night, i think we let dd stretch her day feeds too much yesterday.. :(
Oh well as anne of green gabels would say, tomorrow is a new day with no mistakes in it yet :p
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Reading but have no valueable advice for you. Just wanted to say wooow:), you are doing amazing job and it is encouraging to see how you manage.
I read one of your post couple pages ago about being & feeling WELL even with this very difficult and tiring situation. Really admire you for that and wish all of us with newborns would be so calm and feeling well (not anxious or only tired). I am just learning...:).
Thank you Kayra for sharing your thoughts with us!
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Marti, if it's any consolation I wasn't calm with my first, i had baby-blues, felt overwhelmed, stressed about feeds-naps.. This time I have the benefit of hindsight and also these are long awaited babies, so I think that makes a difference ;) I'm sure you're doing fine, it IS hard xxx
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I was really, really anxious Marti - just try and take one day at a time. And ask for help if you need it. I was v v bad at that! I am new to this forum but it would have been an excellent resource in those tough early days.
Big hugs to you and your cute baby!
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Thank you Ladies...:). I am dealing with the situation, it's much better than it was in early days when I was just terrified by any non-planned behavior or action, LOL. I read BW book and it seemed so EASY:)!
But dealing with what you have is not having much joy of it, iykwim? And that's the thing I am looking for, and I see it when you speak about your babies:). That it is tiring but it's worth. But it will come, I am sure so now just surviving day by day...:).
But do not what to hijack your thread! How are things going??
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Oh Marti. Wish I could give you a hug for real. I think this is where things were maybe easier for me because I hadn't read the books and so I didn't have expectations really. But I have found it gets more and more fun as they get older. The newborn days were special of course, but I think the babies just get better and better! Remember that this year is short compared to the rest of their childhood. And if you are feeling down there are things that can be done.
If you are struggling a bit why not start a thread? I've got one and it's been amazing. I'm not sure which area would be best for you but the moderators will help or move it if it's the wrong place. Or there are threads for each age group somewhere (not sure where!) that might be helpful for you.
Hugs for kayra and the beautiful twins of course! And good luck for tonight! It sounds like a good idea to me to have a break and try and get some sleep. Also (and this is pure speculation!) I think with twins you BF such a lot that your supply is a bit more robust than if it was a singleton and so missing the odd feed doesn't have such an impact. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong there! And also, if your supply doesn't keep up with them you have the option of safe, nutritious formula as a back up, rather than sea water or vodka!! ;D
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I believe you mean the birth clubs Lilyrose. They are on the EASY board. Here is the first one Newborn - 3 Months: Part 50
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hugs Marti, I remember crying in frustration many times b/c DS1 wouldn't sleep as much as he 'should' have and my EASY was messed up! Easier said than done I know but try to relax your expectations and hopefully slowly survival will turn into enjoyment.
We're doing ok, I had my break last night, though I think it was tiring for my parents as little lady was hard to settle :( It was great to sleep a bit more, I pumped after the morning feed and got a good amount so I'm pleased about that. I always get more from the side DD nurses on, although she's gotten better she still has a much weaker suck than DS2 so I'm glad I'm pumping and she's getting top ups that way.
Lily how old are your girls?
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They are 10 months old now :o
Z had a rotten latch for ages and really struggled to get the milk. That's when I found tandem nursing really good as C (a boob demon from birth!!) would start feeding and get a let down then I'd plug Z on as well and she would take a good feed. Otherwise she would just give up. It's a bit fiddly as someone has to be on hand to hand you the bad sucker but it worked brilliantly for us. But if you are able to get milk from the pump that's amazing - one time I got 50 ml, was so proud, then spilt half on the couch, gave the rest to Z and she promptly vomited it back up.....I think I gave up after that!! ;D
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one time I got 50 ml, was so proud, then spilt half on the couch, gave the rest to Z and she promptly vomited it back up.....I think I gave up after that!!
AAAH! I think I'd cry if that happened to me! I don't blame you for giving up.
DD latches ok-I think- and actually when she sucks she's pretty good, but poor thing my nipple is almost bigger than her mouth (sorry TMI) so I think it's just hard for her to suck well and she gets tired.
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She'll get better and better... can't believe they're almost 3 weeks already! Glad you got a little rest, Kayra, you're doing so well! :-*
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I have a question, it's actually about my pumped milk. I think b/c it's consistency is so much runnier than the formula, when they take it from the bottle they end up spilling/dribbling loads of it :(
The same idea just occurred to both my mother and I, what if we were to add it to a bottle of formula? So NOT making up the formula with the milk instead of water, just adding it to the made up formula? Would that take away from the good stuff of the breastmilk? I can't think why it would....? any thoughts?
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Well lots of people mix them when they are weaning onto formula, but that is more short term though. Really if they bf and then have a formula top u it is mixed in their tum anyways!
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I didn't know that about weaning...
you're right it mixes in their tum, I just wasn't sure if mixing it in the bottle would somehow alter it's properties...
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Hmm I suppose it could but if you are mixing them right before feeding I cannot imagine it is by much.
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I remembered reading about mixing EBF and Formula long time ago. Maybe this helps: http://www.babycenter.com/404_can-i-mix-breast-milk-and-formula_8883.bc
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I would say the only problem is when they do not take the whole bottle. You know, for me pumping is hard work and every drop of breast milk is valueable, and... When DS is not taking te whole prepared portion and it was already warmed/mixed with formula, I would have to throw it away. So... If your LO are draining the bottles, why not. However in my case I never know exactly how much will DS feed so I would firstly give him BM and than topup with formula. If formula is not drunk, I wouldn't mind throwing the rest of it, ykwim?
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Thanks koe thats helpful, they'll be having it immediately so it seems ok. Marti they drain the bottle so yhat wont be a problem ;)
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:) little milk-addicts:P
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You can't just add the formula powder to the breast milk if that is what you mean no. You have to make the formula up to the correct amount of water first and then mix it. It can be dangerous to their organs to not add the right amount of water especially at this age.
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I have a question, it's actually about my pumped milk. I think b/c it's consistency is so much runnier than the formula, when they take it from the bottle they end up spilling/dribbling loads of it :(
The same idea just occurred to both my mother and I, what if we were to add it to a bottle of formula? So NOT making up the formula with the milk instead of water, just adding it to the made up formula? Would that take away from the good stuff of the breastmilk? I can't think why it would....? any thoughts?
I dont think that is what she meant Ali
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Oh yes sorry I misread that ::)
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shouldnt you be sunning yourself?
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Yes obviously had too much sun ::)
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Are you on holiday ali? Hope you're having a fab time :) like
km said i didnt mean making up the formula with bm ;)
The formula and bm in same bottle seems to be working well, less spillage :) sometimes they really fight with thr breast and i worry that they're giving up but other times they latch and suck in perfect calm! Never a dull moment ;)
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Yes so just jumping on during a quiet moment in the hotel room. Yes I see now I misread and you were saying that is not what you meant. Ignore me ;)
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Ha, so question from me. If they are draining bottles, you are not giving them more? I am asking as this is what I do with DS... now not sure if doing that correctly:). I mean that if he usually takes (for DF) 6oz I prepare 7oz, ykwim?
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if they've drained the bottle with gusto i do tend to make another oz to see if they'll take it-unless i feel they've really had enough-but if they've really slowed down towards the end i wont bother. so i'm mixing the bm with an amount i know they'll finish.
for a df you obviously wouldnt wait to make more so what you're doing seems to make sense unless you're pretty sure he's not going to take more.
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Hi al, still here, they're first bf'ing and then taking about 60mls of formula, just for df and night feed tgeybget inly formula to speed things up and allow others to help. Dd has startd to want to suck more bu is still GH the dosier sucker. Recently I've noticed that i've become lopsided ::) ironically its on the side which was the harderone to latch onto, must be b/c i had ds who was tge better sucker on that side mostly. So now i'm trying to give him tghe other side more in hopes tgat they may equal out, would that work? Problem is i think the larger side does have more milk and i dont think shes able to get it all out, then again i'm not sure of letting him have that side much incase i become even more lopsided! Any suggestions? Thanks!
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Is it your right side that feels heavier? I had the same. I now always start out on the left, then switch to the right.
I also noticed I can express about 4oz from the left, but 8+ from the right :o
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8+oz from right??!!! Woow:)
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I had a good side and a bad side, and used to feed C (my good feeder) from the bad side when it was sore but if it wasn't but Z on it. If Lena wants to suck more then why not let her have a few looooong feeds from your big side and let mika work on pumping up the smaller side. Or I suppose the alternative is to pump the smaller side after each feed, but i HATE pumping so can't really recommend that ;D
Sounds like the feeding is going really well, well done!!
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Yes its the right side that is bigger. Wow steffi, the most i've ever got from both sides is 2oz!!!!
I'm giving her the larger side but im not sure that the smaller side is satisfying him and i think she really needs to work the big side to empty it-which i think she generally cant be bothered to do. I suppose i should then pump that side but i dont have time on the whole. So sometimes i put him on that side too but i am worried that it will add to the problem.. Will the difference keep getting bigger? Will all go back to normal when they eventually stop bfing?
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One of my friends basically BF her little boy exclusively from one side as she had an inverted nipple and kept on and on getting cracks...and in the end he just rejected that side! She wore baggy tops I suppose but she never looked particularly uneven and I'm sure she is back to normal now.