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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Canadian Nat on June 12, 2014, 11:09:50 am

Title: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on June 12, 2014, 11:09:50 am
My  5.5 month old was waking maybe once in the night, and I managed to get her to settle with the paci.  But now she is waking 2/3 times a night. I manage to settle her with teething granules and the paci usually the first couple of times and then by the third, I tend to feed her as it has been over 6 hours since she last fed.  When she used to wake only once a night, that wasn't every night. 

Last night she woke every 3 - 3.5 hours.  Making it 3 times a night.  Here is the day she had as an example:

E - 3.50am
S - 4am

wake - 6.30am
E - 6.50am
A
S - 8.15am

wake - 8.55am
E - 9.15am
A
S - 11am

wake - 12.50pm
E - 1.15pm
A
S - 4.20pm

wake - 5.30pm
E - 5.40pm
A

E - 8pm
S - 8.30/9pm

She then woke at:
11pm
2.30am
5.15am
then I eventually fed her at 5.45am

I'm so sleep deprived.

She's started weaning a couple of spoonfuls or barely one spoonful (depending if she likes it or not) of food at two meal times a day before she had her milk.  She is breastfed apart from the bedtime bottle.  Which she is draining at 260ml regularly...

Not sure what else you need to know.   I have a toddler who just turned two years old and so sleep and naps are difficult with noise etc.

I am desperate for some advice on this new problem.  She is just regularly waking and I don't know why.  I don't seem to have confidence to be able to tell if she needs a feed in the night or to just try settling her.  I have no idea what she is waking for and it is getting me really down.

Please can anyone help?

Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Layla on June 20, 2014, 02:50:51 am
Hi Nat,

Sorry your post has been missed..how are things going?
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on June 23, 2014, 07:22:37 am
Hi Layla

Just seen your reply.  I had thought no one would reply so haven't checked this for a bit.  Thanks for getting in touch.

Things are still the same.  Last night was three times a night, although a couple of nights previously on the trot it has been one time a night.  I posted again separately as you'll see because I noticed she was waking at a regular sort of time, about an hour to 2 hours after the bedtime feed.   So I wondered if there was a different problem.  But I was back to three times a night last night. 

I read in a FAQ section that night wakings can be overtiredness too and I know you've probably said this to me before too but I also read that it manifests in waking about 1-2 hours after the bedtime feed, so I wonder if that is the reason as it sounds exactly like what's happening, like clockwork.  She napped terribly yesterday, really hardly at all and looked really good on it through the whole day which is weird!  Should I move her bedtime back earlier than an 8pm bedtime bottle?  Do it incrementally? 

Or could it be the weaning or teething waking her up?

I'm losing the will to live...

Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on June 23, 2014, 10:59:11 am
Why not try some proper medication for the teeth. Both my babies, teething granules really wasn't enough for them they needed the actual pharmaceuticals ;)

If the first waking is soon after bedtime, I would work to rule out OT (early bedtime if necessary) and pain. If the second feeding is more than 4hrs after her bedtime bottle, honestly I would just feed her, maybe that would cancel out the 3rd waking.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on June 23, 2014, 11:00:05 am
I'm losing the will to live...

Sweetie, I don't know if this is just a turn of phrase... but if you're really struggling, head on over to your GP (and then to the Post Partum Depression board on here ;) :-* )
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Layla on June 23, 2014, 11:05:47 am
Firstly, so many (((hugs)))... I am a little worried about what you said and maybe it would be a good idea for you to get in touch with your GP and perhaps get a referral to see someone that can offer you support in real life too???

I did see your other post and locked it so that we can keep all the advise in one place. Again, sorry this post was missed but hopefully we can help you get your LO back on track and sleeping a little better again at night :-*.

You know me too well Nat, and I still think her bedtime is a little too late, especially if she's starting her day at 5.30am (again). I also think her A times are a little on the low side. At almost 6 months, I think you should aim at around 2.5hrs A time (some even start to move towards 3 and lose the 3rd nap) and I believe this will help her consolidate some of those naps and move towards 3 naps. With the increase in A time... I would do an extra 10-15 mins every couple of days until you get there. Ideally you would be looking at 2x1.5hr naps and a short catnap before bedtime. With the increase in A, she will hopefully be tired enough to sleep longer than just 1 sleep cycle too!!! Is that something you think you could work on? I know when I was increasing A's, I had to take dd3 out of the house and distract her. Some do a longer windown and stretch it out that way (something simple like walking around the house, rubbing her back).

I would also be careful offering her solids before milk as milk is much more important than solids and just for fun before 1. I would do a milk feed first (offer both sides) and then offer solids an hour later and she probably doesn't need 2 meals at this age. I would stick with just breakfast (be it 1-2 teaspoons) and in about a month or so you could think about lunch and by around 9 months probably add in dinner.

I remember you mentioned a while ago she was using a dummy... when she wakes at night, do you find yourself having to replug for her to get back to sleep?

Posted with Anna  ;)
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on June 23, 2014, 12:51:46 pm
My dd2 used to do this too - 3 hr is about the length of her sleep cycle and she'd wake because she thought she needed a breast feed to get back to sleep. So I was her prop. I managed to cut back the 10 pm feed to a very small feed and then did pat/shh to settle her without feeding. That left the 3 am feed, which I am still doing.   At 5-6 months, though, I was feeding her twice a night so tbh if she seems hungry I would just feed her, as long as it's 4 hours or so since the last feed.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: *Liz* on June 23, 2014, 19:36:38 pm
I think a lot of BF do this at this age - they get hungry and start to increase the milk feeds and then get into the habit of having a BF at every night waking  >:( ::) - and of course it is hard to wean the feeds until you are clear about them having enough food overall.

It is a vicious cycle, and one I am not clear on what the solution is  :-\.

My children were a similar age gap and I remember feeling totally worn out by this stage. I was struggling with irritability and exhaustion, and was never sure whether I needed to consider depression or not.

Lots of (((hugs)))
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Sarah - Enfys' Mum on June 23, 2014, 19:38:52 pm
I second that. I found the 4-6 month stage incredibly difficult this time round. I was much more tired than I was during the first three months even though she was waking less.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on June 23, 2014, 19:52:09 pm
Thanks for all your replies and support.  It is really nice of you all. I do feel very alone sometimes, having such a struggle with my feelings and the sleep deprivation. There's much to try and reply to, so I'll try my best.

(Just to clarify, when she wakes up 2/3 times, I'm not feeding her to get her back to sleep.  I just wondered if some of you think I am feeding her, going by your posts.)

With offering a feed if the third waking it is quite a few hours after the bedtime feed, then, yes, I'll consider feeding her.  But I only haven't done that for a while because she can go a good 9 hours without a feed overnight generally so I am loathed to go backwards if you know what I mean?

I have been to the GP re how I feel as I have a history of depression.  I have begun counselling (only allowed 8 sessions through the GP which is free - I can't afford private) to combat my anxiety issues re parenthood, and have also got some antidepressants (Sertraline) which I have to admit, I haven't started taking yet as it has been something I have tried to avoid as I'm breastfeeding.  I've got a step closer to using them though by actually getting the prescription.  But I am fighting the urge to give in to them as I have come this far without giving in...I won't do anything silly but I do struggle with low mood/anxiety/depression.  Thanks for the pointer to the post natal depression board, I'll try and find that.

Tonight, I tried to do the bedtime 15 minutes earlier.  So, I took her up at 7.30pm and was feeding at 7.45pm.  Totally down by 8.15pm although asleep really on my shoulder before that.

Mainly I do get longer activity times out of her, 2.5/2.75 hours usually but I'll try and get her to 3 hours and see if that helps.  Yes, I will try and keep on working on that as I get what you are saying about her maybe getting tired enough to sleep longer than a sleep cycle.  Should I be concerned about trying to strike the right balance and not make her OT though in A time?

With regards to the paci, I only use it if I can't get her to go back to sleep on her own in the middle of the night.  For instance, she falls asleep on the bottle at bedtime, so no need for the paci.  However, after those odd wake ups in the night, I sometimes have to use the paci but it is hard to tell  if I'm have to replug it.  If she wakes and I use the paci one time, when she next wakes, she often doesn't have the paci in her mouth so either it has fallen out and that's woken her, or it popped out ages ago and she's woken for another reason. 

I've given her Teether gel tonight as I notice on it that it says apply every 6 hours, so that seems to imply that it has a longer lasting effect than granules which they suggest can be applied every 2 hours, so see if that helps as well. 

I have tried the earlier bedtime tonight as I say too so I'm trying to get there on ruling out the OT.

I'll see how it goes tonight.

Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on June 23, 2014, 20:05:29 pm
Quote (selected)
With offering a feed if the third waking it is quite a few hours after the bedtime feed, then, yes, I'll consider feeding her.  But I only haven't done that for a while because she can go a good 9 hours without a feed overnight generally so I am loathed to go backwards if you know what I mean?
see to me, a little baby still having one or two night feeds is normal. Progress isn't always linear, just because she did so 9 hrs doesn't mean she always can yk? If it was me I would take the path of most sleep for now and fix it later.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on June 24, 2014, 19:26:16 pm
OK, noted.

Last night she woke once really and I gave her Teether gel straightaway since it was over 6 hours since I'd given it last.  But I couldn't settle her without the paci, and even then it took her a little while to settle.  But apart from that, it wasn't as bad as other nights.

Today, she did the same terrible napping at first, even though I lengthened her A time to 2.75 hours during the first two periods.  Then she was really tired after that and did a half hour nap, which she woke from and then played for 10 minutes before finding her paci and putting it back in and then falling asleep.  I was quite surprised by that.  She's not done anything like that before.  Once she fell asleep again, she went off for 1 hour 55 mins.  I woke her from the sleep as it was over 4.5 hours since her last feed.  Then she wouldn't have a cap nap later (I suppose as she had had a good long nap earlier).  So by the time bedtime came she was OT I guess.  So I expect her to wake frequently after bedtime tonight perhaps..?  IF that frequent waking is due to OT. 

I really can't seem to help her to get through naps well past the half hour mark or 20 mins or 40 mins it seems...

Anna - By the way, when you mentioned getting proper meds for the teeting, can you name any that you would recommend?

Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on June 24, 2014, 19:28:05 pm
I'm in the UK so we use Calpol and Nurofen, which I THINK are Motrin and Tylenol in north america?
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Layla on June 29, 2014, 10:34:01 am
How are things going? :)
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on June 30, 2014, 19:34:59 pm
I have had a few nights where it has been different each time.  For instance, one night she woke 2 times before midnight, another she woke once at 3am and that was it, and then one night she woke three times within an hour and a half.  That night I gave her Calpol in the end as I thought it must be a pain that wasn't going away and she had had Teether gel not that long ago, so I thought proper painkiller might be best, as suggested to me in previous posts.  After I gave that, I didn't hear anything more from her that night(!) so I don't know what you think about all that?

Last night I feel like she might have been able to sleep through but the toddler woke screaming for some reason and woke her up...

Anna, I can't give Calpol every night though can I?!  Do we think it is teething?

She just turned 6 months a few days ago too so we're starting to think about picking up the pace with the weaning, in terms of giving her more variety.  She had Weetabix today and scoffed it all!

I am still very worried about these troublesome night wakings.  I sometimes hear her do little whimpers before she wakes crying so could that mean it is pain?  Teething?  Don't think it is wind.

Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Lindsay27 on June 30, 2014, 19:43:53 pm
Just some food for though, I gave my DS a NF through until he was 8 months when I started weaning him off slowly as it was starting to impact his morning feed.  I would probably consider at least 1 NW due to hunger.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on June 30, 2014, 19:58:07 pm
Hey, you will hear different opinions but I gave Calpol LOTS of nights when my babies were teething. I can't expect them to sleep soundly if they are in pain, yk? Obviously you don't want to give it to her if she's not hurting, but IMO these meds are super safe.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 03, 2014, 21:09:36 pm
I didn't need to use calpol again last night thank goodness. I'm putting her down earlier now (bottle about 7.30/7.40pm), and so I'm finding she needs a feed (possibly?) at about 4am something as she wakes then and is just 'awake'.  Paci, teeth gel doesn't seem to settle her. Its not nappy or temperature issue as far as I can see. She also tends to drain a 260ml bottle each night. Do you think she wants more and if so how do I do it? That's the max the bottle can take. Should I give her more weaning food in the day or less time between daytime feeds?  Her naps are still bad and good on different days.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on July 03, 2014, 21:40:34 pm
Could you for a few nights try giving her a feed at say 3am and popping her back in her crib?
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night (now 6 months old)
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 07, 2014, 19:21:12 pm
Yes I suppose I could give her a feed at 3am if she wakes then.  Or are you saying I should wake her for the 3am feed?

The last few nights she's been waking at 5am something still or 4am.  If 4am I usually just about manage to get her to sleep again for a little bit.  But she wouldn't go back to sleep at the 5am something feed... Any ideas on what I could do about this?

She is going to bed earlier, starting the bedtime routine between 7-7.15pm.  That's a big difference to what I was doing a while ago which was a much later start to bedtime. 

She is still waking up randomly in the night.  Last night for instance she woke at about 11.30pm.  I don't know why.  I didn't feed as it was too soon since bedtime.  I just gave her Teetha gel and gave the paci.  Checked for nappy and temperature of course but didn't seem to be either of these.  Is this just a baby that wants to wake early or do you think she'll learn to sleep longer?  Or how can I get her to sleep to about 6am?!

Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on July 07, 2014, 19:47:15 pm
If it was me yes I would do a kind of dream feed at 3-4am so she would go back down and be more likely to sleep past 5am.

Is she teething? Babies do just wake in the night, always, the trick is to teach them to go back to sleep! At 6 months it is still completely normal to need two night feeds.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 07, 2014, 20:25:43 pm
I presume she's teething as she's biting her bottom lip lots in the day and sucking at it and putting her fingers in her mouth.  I don't know how to tell for sure. How else can I tell?

( she's woke  twice already tonight since the bedtime feed. both within two hours of the feed...does that sound like teething or over-tiredness? or over stimulation from during the day?
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on July 07, 2014, 20:27:22 pm
It could be either, have you given her meds? Did she have a particularly busy day?
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 08, 2014, 11:21:17 am
Yes, I gave her Calpol in the end as she woke for a third time in quick succession.  So I thought I would give it to her.  I didn't hear a peep after that.  She woke at 3.15am though so I tried the paci, just to see, but then she seemed slightly unhappy, so I quickly got up and fed her.  She was a bit fussy after the feed, as if trying to sleep in my arms but wanting to be put down.  I didn't want to put her down too soon after the feed as I always think it is best to keep them up for 10 minutes after a big feed to help it get down a bit.  But managed to get her to sleep without the paci.   (I let her have it for a while until she seemed really asleep in my arms and then took it away.  She didn't seem to mind that.  I then put her on my shoulder for a couple of minutes and then put her down).

Yes, she did have a particularly busy day for a change actually.  I took her and the toddler to a play group at the children's centre and so both of them were around noise and other children and lots of interesting toys for 2 hours.  That's going to become a regular feature in our week.

So, I'm really tired today.  I don't think waking her deliberately is going to work for me personally as I can't cope with the constant sleep deprivation that waking at 3am seems to bring...I'll do it as long as she wakes herself then though of course.  But I just don't think I can plan to do it...
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on July 08, 2014, 12:36:15 pm
Up to you of course but I would prefer to get up for a quick feed at 3 and then start the day at 6, than be up for the day at 5... I also would definitely not keep her up after the feed in the middle of the night - not unless she is reliably going to puke but at this age really she should be fine. If she wakes closer to 5i I would treat it just like a night feed, dark, quiet, straight back into the crib. It sounds like it's teeth waking her, no?
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 08, 2014, 19:01:24 pm
Yes, I see what you mean.  I agree with you but I don't know how to handle the sleep deprivation...There is a good chance she'll wake around 3am anyway as I'm putting her to bed very early now, she went up at 7pm tonight as she had terrible naps today...So I'll feed her if she wakes.

I will try also to do the night feed as suggested and not keep her up as long and see how that goes.  I hadn't thought that it might be OK to try and keep her up a shorter amount of time now she's 6 months.

We'll see how tonight goes...
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 12, 2014, 20:19:23 pm
Have been gathering data from the last few nights, plus the babies have had a cold each so I've been busy...

The baby's pattern at night seems to be  that she wakes around 3/4am now regularly.  I'm guessing this is for a feed since she goes through pretty much from about 7.30/8pm (sleeping), until then, give or take a few wake ups either within the first two hours after put down, or a midnight wake up for some reason. 

What do you think this means, the waking at 3/4am?  Is it for a feed still do you think?  Previously, I would have put the paci in and seen if she can go to sleep again and it sometimes worked.  But since you've given me advice that you would probably feed her, I have just been doing that and assuming that it is for a feed is she waking. I just wonder when I will be able to stop giving this feed at night.

Should I give her 3 weaning meals a day now perhaps and see if that makes her go longer through the night?  She currently has two, of about 2 teaspoon sizes per meal. 

Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on July 12, 2014, 20:29:39 pm
How many feeds is she having at night? If this is her only feed since bedtime I would just roll with it for a couple of months at least, and then start phasing it out. I know it is tiring, but tbh another teaspoon of veggies or fruit isn't going to amount to many calories. You may find that once she's taking on plenty of solids, including proteins and plenty fats etc, she stops waking of her own accord. So she is going back down after that feed and waking at a decent hour in the morning? 
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 13, 2014, 19:50:01 pm
I think she's having one feed a night.  For instance, at 3/4am.  Last night she woke at 1.30am however, and the paci didn't do the trick, so I fed her.  Then she woke for a feed at 5.45am.  Did I do that wrong last night do you think?  I guess she might have needed a feed at 1.30am since, unusually for her, she didn't wake at all after the bedtime feed, which has been my problem recently with wakings 2/3 times within the first two hours.  I was surprise she didn't wake at all last night until 1.30am.  As the paci didn't settle her, do you think I did the right thing by feeding her?  Her cold didn't seem to be the problem, in fact she seemed to be doing well in that respect, not suffering too much with it.  So I could only think she needed a feed.

When she wakes for the 3/4am feed, she sometimes needs a bit of settling and the paci for sure to go back to sleep.  However, on last night's unusual 1.30am feed, she fell back to sleep straight after coming off the breast.  I haven't seen that in her sine she was a new born.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on July 13, 2014, 20:18:10 pm
It sounds like she's doing pretty well.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 14, 2014, 19:11:28 pm
Last night, she woke at 9pm something, I think because I disturbed her coming in as we still have to share the same room.  Then she woke at midnight something, but I tried teething gel and the soother as I thought it was too early to feed her really when I know she should go longer normally.  Then she woke at 4am something at which time I fed her.  She took the paci to get back to sleep.  Then woke at about 6am something.  She normally wakes between 5 and 6am something.  I forgot to answer your previous question of whether she wakes at a decent hour.  I don't think she does as it is normally 4/5am wake ups. 

Another thing I could do with an opinion on is that she seems to always completely drain a 260ml bottle of formula at bedtime.  She only has this one bottle a day and the rest is breast feed.  What should I do about her draining the bottle?  Could that be why she wakes frequently within two hours of bedtime?  What should I do?  Do you think I need to give her more bottle?  Or is 260ml kind of the max a baby should have anyway?  We can't fit anymore in the bottle.

Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: anna* on July 14, 2014, 19:32:06 pm
I'd have to suggest posting on the bottle feed forum for that, I've no experience bottle feeding.
Title: Re: 5.5 month old waking upto 3 times a night
Post by: Canadian Nat on July 16, 2014, 19:47:53 pm
Thanks, I have posted there so will see what people say. 

Thanks for your help.