BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: geordiemummy on July 13, 2014, 21:29:56 pm
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Hi everyone,
My little boy Ralph has been extremely hard work since birth and originally posted on EASY board for help with a whole range of problems. We are however still having problems with sleep both daytime and at night. Originally to get him back on track I did AP but fell into the dreaded trap of continuing it just to get some rest. I could kick myself as i knew what the outcome would be :( For daytime naps he has been pushed in his pram outside as this is the only way i could get him to sleep without screaming and now he will sleep for 1-1.5hrs which is a massive improvement on the 20min catnaps that he was driving me insane with, he was constantly OT all the time. I dont want this to continue as the weather isnt going to be good forever and its ridiculous really and he should be sleeping inside.
As for the night wakenings he goes to bed around 6.45pm and always wakes 30mins after, usually screaming. I cant settle him in his cot anymore he wants to be picked up and cuddled on bed but even then he resists and pulls, pinches, kicks etc so I put him down and he still screams. Its really difficult as his body language is telling me put me down but when i do hes really upset so in the end I hold him tight until he gives up. He then sleeps until around 9 but will usually settle with a plug in of dummy and holding of hand for around 5mins, then wakes around 10ish, then 11ish when he has a 7oz bottle. He then sleeps till around 1.15 (always this time every night) then 3ish when he wants another bottle and then 5.00 when i can get him back to sleep for all of 45mins! Hes then up around 5.45-6.00.
Lots of questions and thoughts really about whats going on, obviously the majority is my/our fault for AP which i feel terrible over as now my poor little man doesnt know how to get to sleep on his own or how to get Back to sleep. Its the whole reason why I read the baby whisperer to prevent this happening and it has and I feel like a failure :(
Hes a big boy but i'm questioning him being fed twice in the night? It seems he is still on 4hr feeding even in night? Pu/PD might be a solution but I slipped a disc a few months back and still struggling with back pain and he weighs 23 pounds! will i have to remove dummy first? or do you think if i drop a feed he might not keep waking?
I'm stuck and in a bit of a pickle and I also have a 2yr old to contend with aswell can anyone help?
Em x
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Hi hun sorry I missed this ppst. Will come back later and do a proper response.
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Hugs! My 8mo is similar. It's so hard! We are ditching the paci as of tonight. I think it will help. I am letting her keep two night feeds. She gets so distracted in the day and I do think she is hungry. We are doing PUPD and shh/pat. Fun times. :P
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Hi, thanks for both of your replies, Its becoming really stressful now and I'm completely exhausted. It wouldnt be so bad if he was a little angel during the day but he's not :( His grandparents have named him "the hulk" as when he goes, he really goes. He has a terrible temper and I have the same issues as you Kate with his feeding, he refuses to lie in my arms to take a bottle he wants to sit up and continue to be nosy but I do manage to get all his feeds down him although sometimes takes an hr on and off the bottle. He is quite difficult to manage a lot of the time and because hes so heavy it just makes things even harder especially on my back.
Teething hasn't helped and he already has 6 and he's not turned 8mths yet. But that isn't why he keeps waking as when hes teething he can be up 15times in the night.
I will consider all suggestions in fact I will try ANYTHING (apart from CIO) my partner and his mum think that is the only way to go and is less than willing to help with the night wakings and even more so with removing the dummy, hes very skeptical about any other sleep training method and is causing friction so I'm feeling quite alone :(
spk soon hopefully Ema xx
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Thought I'd post routine and also to say that last post sounded very negative but when Ralph is happy he is the cutest and funniest little chunk ever ;D
Monday. Wu 5.45
E 6.30
E 7.45
A 2.30
S 1 hrs 8.15 am- 9.15
E 11.00
E 12.15
A 3hrs 45
S 1hrs 15 1.00-2.00
E 3.00
E 4.30
A 4.45
S 6.45 - awake 7.20, 8.15, 9.30,9.45 ,bottle at 10.00, 11.15, 1.20, 2.45, 3.00 bottle,
Yesterday. Wu 5.50
E 6.30
E 7.45
A 2hrs 20
S 1hrs 8.10 - 9.10
E 11.00
. E 12.00
A 3hrs 50
S 50 mins 1.00 - 1.50
E 3.00
A 1hrs40
S 50 mins 3.30 - 4.20
E 5.00
E 6.45
A 2 hrs 50
S 7.00. Woke 7.20, 8.15, 10.00 bottle, 11.15, 12.00, 1.10, bottle at 1.30, 3.30, 3.45, 4.00 bottle.
This morning so far Wu 5.30
E 7.15
A 2 hrs 40
S 8.10 until ?
He's been really hard work this morning it's his teeth hope this helps thanks x
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Hi Ema
Just so say hugs and things do get easier eventually, mine isnt the best sleeper either and as ur little one bery loud, heavy and rather demanding. And we still have night wakings, but what jumps out straight away is a very long A time before bed, he is incredibly OT bu the tome he goes to bed and i think this is why you are experiencing these wakings at the beginning of the night.
He is around 8 months now? Is that right?
I would increase his first A time by 10 mins for a couple of days and see if u can get a longer nap there. Jut noticed ur A times vary from day to day, how would u feel sticking to the same A time for a bit, almost do set naps, so ur day is a bit more predictable?
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Hi viktoria, yes everyday is slightly different but only by 30 mins or so usually. Yesterday and today he's had a b it of a tummy upset so that's why his sleep was out as he had dirtied his nappy while sleeping. Normally in a morning he will sleep 8.30 until 9.30 ish and then afternoon nap between 12.30 and 1.00 but he never sleeps longer than 1hrs 15 mins which makes the afternoon really long for him. Even when he was having a CN he still woke in the night often. So I'm thinking either extend the naps or earlier bedtime?
I'm thinking of tackling naps first and trying to make them a bit longer and also in his cot. I don't know much about using white noise or whether it will work on an older baby, will see what is suggested.
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Anyone available for some advice on a way forward? as I'm becoming desperate now and It's really getting me down :(
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I wonder if that second A time is too long for him. My C is only doing 3h - 3h10 min to get a 1.5-2h nap. Maybe try cutting back on that a bit? Could be an OT nap for you there. I'm also a big fan of EBT. Tends to help in the long run, I think.
Do you think you have the energy to tackle dropping the paci? We are only 1 day in with this kiddo but I know it helped with my others and I think it will help this time around, too. It is a brutal few days, though. Especially without help. :P
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Hi hun have you taken the know your baby quiz? Maybe he's spirited which in that case would change things a bit? Could there be any discomfort unvolved? When he waked at 5:45 do you go in or is he content until later when you go get him? When he does wake at night how is hr? Crying happy? How do you resettle him?
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So many thanks for replying, yes he's a spirited baby with truthiness too. When he wakes in the night I used to be able to turn him on his side pop his dummyin and hold his hand and it worked every time but now it only works I'd say 25% of the time so I pick him him up when it fails, as he starts to cry and do ssshhh and then put him back down however again this is starting to not work and have ended up probably 50% of the time lying him in my arms on the bed till he calms down and stops flailing and then put him back in his cot.
He is still in our room as can't put him in with 2 yr old as he'd wake him up. When he wakes up early morning he lies there for about 10 mins chattering away until he starts to shout for me and if I don't get him out quickly then it can turn into crying very quickly.
There is no discomfort I believe as when he's teething g he really screams and past 2nights because of his tummy upset he's been whimpering with a weary cry.
Hope this answers your questions thanks ema xx
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Hi Ema
30 min of A time is a big difference for a little one. I think you can either tackle naps first and then nights or just do it all together. U will have a rough week or so though, so it is important that you have some support, its not easy, but you can do it! And there will be crying involved, but you will ne with your LO comforting him.
Do i want to ditch the paci? If so, just get rid of all of them in the house, because it could be so tempting tp just give it back to him.
You said your little one is spirited, pu/pd might becom to aggitating for him, so i would start with shush /pat and a sleepy phrase.
So when the time comes for a nap, you do your wind down routine, u pop him in the cot, u say your sleepy phrase and if he is calm u walk away. I know, i know, he is unlikely to be calm, so if he starts crying, you start shush/ pat. You can do shush/pat the way it suits i best. So we did pat the bum or more so the thigh. And u pat him until he is asleep for the first day. For naps u do this for 45 mins and if he hasnt slept at all u her him up and try again when u see his sleepy cues. For BT u shush pat until he is asleep.
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Gi Viktoria Im on my phone but can you Link her to the page that talks about ST? so she can read about gradual withdrawl etc? Also Ema I understand havung the 2yr ild but perhaps you could get him headphones etc. for now for when you are ST your lo? that way he may sleep through the crying? Do you think you are a prop at this pont and he can't settle with out your help?
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Hi, many thanks for both of your replies. I have tried ssh pat when he was younger and it seemed to work for a while until he learned to roll over and got stronger so he would just push himself back every time I tried to turn him on his side and it turned into a bit of a power struggle. I've tried again lately with zero success as he gets hysterical, arms legs flailing everywhere and hair is soaking wet its awful. He does sleep on his side and when he wakes early on in the night (before 11) ts quite easy to get him back to sleep just by holding his hand or should I say him holding my hand/fingers. He does this a lot even when feeding him so maybe that is the prop as well as myself.
As I mentioned earlier he can't self settle due to my AP and even at BT he is practically asleep when he's finished his bottle and put down.
I have tried with lots of snugglys and comfort blankets for him to hold instead but to no avail. Questions I have are: shall I try ssh pat again and instead of forcing him on his side try it when he's on his back?
Also do I continue with ssh pat even if he becomes hysterical? Should I be cutting out a feed? Last week on a few occasions he was having a bottle at 6.30pm ,9.45,pm 1.30,am 4.00am I know this is too much but he really cried for it. During the day he is having 26oz plus 3 small meals so if u add that to night feeds it totals
42 oz. Starting to think that may be a prop too,oh I'm so confused and sad that its gotten this far. :'(
It wasn't the best of starts for us when he was born as he had a posterior tongue tie that wasn't discovered until he was 3mths . Old which caused great distress with his feeding and terrible colic and led to me suffering from post natal depression. I just want to make things right and help my little chunky monkey to self settle and be a more content baby and not OT all the time. I'm willing to try all of your suggestions and think I would rather do it in one go i.e. day naps and night. I just need some sort of a plan that I can work with but need some help devising it.
Sorry for the long post but thought the more info u have the better understanding.
Ema xx
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Hi Ema I am at work till this afternoon (US time) but I will send you some info when I get done. Just ine questuon why are you turning him from his side? Amd are you willing to stop all the props I.e. hand hding etc to help him learn to self settle. There will be crying amd tears etc. but you will be with gim to help him through it and he will get there but xonfusing him by going back amd forth wont work if you see what I mean. Does he go 4hrs between feeds during the day? sorry I'm in my ph so hard to look at your EASY right now.
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HI Siobhan,
I'm turning him on his side as I'm sure I read in the book it was easier to do ssh pat this way? But also as he immediately goes to turn on his side in the night when I go to settle him, he also sleeps on his side so presumed this was the right thing to do? Yes he has a bottle every 4hrs during the day he has 7 oz. And I give him food 1-1.30 hrs after bottle.
I understand you are at work so will speak later thank you and yes I am willing to drop all props xx
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Im afraid im on my phone too, as we are away. In terms of shush pat there is no reason you wouldnt do something that suits u, for example just rub back and shush or just hold ur hand on him and shush or pat his bum.
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Hi all, last night was awful. He had me up about 10 times, not with pain but found it difficult to 're settle him without taking him out of cot. I was going to re-read the book last night to refresh things in my mind so I could get started on implementing changes, however Ralph had other ideas and didn't get the chance. Could you help me with where to start? Shall I try ssh pat again? Will it not be too overwhelming for him to do so many changes I.e no paci, no hand holding, no sleeping in pram anymore etc or is that the best way?
HELP? Feeling confused xx
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Hi Ema
Im sorry things are difficult. Are you sure theres no discomfort? 10times is a lot to wake.
I think you have a few options, but it depends on what you are comfortable with.
You can drop all the props and just go for it with shush pat. There will be a lot of crying because Ralph doesn't know how to fall asleep himself and it will be a change for him.
You can drop the props and keep the paci for example and teach him to replug it. I think whatever way he will cry and you need to be ready to be there to comfort him.
I cant promise you he will sleep through the night, but it will be much easier to get Ralph to sleep.
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Hi thanks Viktoria,
There is definitely no discomfort he's always been like this. I've just let it continue in the hope that once he was weaned things would be better.
I do try and put the dummy in his hand to replug but he misses and just puts the plastic edge in and then gets frustrated and flings it about. I think I will try ssh pat again and see what happens over the next week.
What do I do about the feeds in the night? Shall I cut back to 2?
Ema x
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Yes i would leave just 2, so for example it has been 4 hours since the last feed and he wakes u dont try to shush pat just feed him and back into cot, all other wakings u resettle with shush pat until the next feed is due. It will be difficult its a huge change for him, but hang in there!
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Okay thank you for advice. Will start in the morning tomorrow as Ralph was up at 5.00 this morning and has knocked his routine out today already as he had a cat nap at 7.30 am.
I'm totally ready for this now and I know it will be hard, I've bought some ear plugs to help.
Will keep u posted x
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here is definitely no discomfort he's always been like this.
Hi hun this makes me think it could be discomfort? Have you had a pediatrician look for signs of reflux etc?
Read a few of the links regarding shush/pat or Pu/pd which ever you are more comfortable with. Yes there will be crying but the goal is to get him eventually to be able to settle with out you in the room.
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I have took him to the docs following suggestions on here before as he used to scream and throw himself about whenever he was tired. Tried gaviscon which didn't make a difference and eventually he now no longer screams, I think he was extremely OT. Now that he doesn't cat nap he doesn't scream anymore he just cries when he's tired. He really fights it and always has done. With his night awakenings he has a shouting cry if that makes sense which if I don't see to him or pick him up then it turns into proper crying and upset.
If he was in pain I would know as he has a very distinctive high l pitched scream especially when he's teething.
X
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Ok well that's great that you can tell the differences in his cries that is always so helpful. So yes it seems you are a prop for him so Sleep training so he can resettle with out you I think is the right way to go. Is there anyone else who can help you as it can be very tiring and daunting but well worth it when he starts to sleep through.
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Hi, thought I'd give you an update and also to ask for advice. Decided I would start with the naps first yesterday as thought doing it all at once would be quite a lot to take on for me, However the naps were a huge success ;D and it only took him 15 mins to settle on both occasions and slept for 1hrs 40 mins both times without waking up mid way. I couldn't believe it!!
I'm so pleased and it has worked again this morning when I refused to get up at 5.00 so got him back to sleep at 5.30 and he slept until 6.50. However when I'm settling him I tried the ssh pat but he keeps pushing my hand away so I can t pat him, he is still quite adamant that he wants to hold my hand and mess with it, waving it about etc and pulling it towards him until he's drowsy when I pull it away although sometimes he immediately turns on his back and checks I'm still there and grabs it again.
The advice I'm looking for is how to tackle the issue of me or my hand being the prop during the night as he's waking practically every hour to hour an a half and more frequently early on. He holds it for around 5 mins but it's exhausting and I am not relaxing in the evenings as I'm up and down the stairs all the time.I thought maybe just putting my hand on his back or chest might work but he just grabs it and he's strong so don't want to start a tug of war with him. I've tried replacing my hand with a little snuggle item but to no avail, do I keep trying? How do I get around this? Any ideas?
Thanks Ema xx
I've decided that since the naps weren't as bad as first thought then I will tackle the night time wakenings.
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Hi hun, yes hand holding can definetely be a prop. Which ST method have you chosen to do at nap time? Given he is 8 months old PU/PD may be too stimulating for him? And Shush pat can irritate children after 6 months. So my suggestion is since he still wants you touching him is to try gradual withdrawl?
Gradual Withdrawal Method
The key to Gradual Withdrawal is to take tiny steps and make the changes very small at first so the child barely notices them. Create a plan, broken into small steps of how you will reduce the parental dependence and work towards independence. For example, patting on the back becomes lighter and lighter until the hand barely brushes the child's back, but is poised just above it.
To implement, follow your bedtime routine being certain that your child has sufficiently wound down from the day. When wind down is completed, lay your child down, tuck them in and use a phrase they can associate with it's sleep time such as "time to go night-night you can find your blankie/pacifier/suck your thumb/etc. to help you fall asleep." Settle your child in their crib/bed and comfort as you normally would, then implement the first step in your plan. Depending upon your child's temperament, you may be able to tackle more in less nights, or need to do less over the course of more nights.
The Gradual Withdrawal Method is intended for children that are reliant upon a parent's presence to calm them and help them settle for sleep. Examples are: sitting in the room, holding a child's hand, laying down with a child, patting to sleep, among others. The idea is to simply reduce the reliance on parental presence gradually and in very small increments so the child continues to settle well and gains confidence in their ability to fall asleep independently. The parent is there to assist the child in sleeping, but slowly reduces the dependence. Examples might be: moving a chair closer and closer to the door until out of the room over the course of a few weeks, moving out a child's bed to an air mattress on the floor, then slowly move farther and farther towards the door over time, reducing the length of time patting though still staying with the child - then slowly working closer and closer towards the door.
What do you think?
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I was thinking along the same lines but didn't know how to implement it. Do I just gradually reduce the time spent holding his hand/being there? When I let go of his hand do I go out of the room and come back if he cries and start again?
How do we get to the point where he no longer wants the hand at all? Do I not let him and just say the sleepy phrase and leave the room?
So many questions again, I'm really sorry xx
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Hi hun, what your thinking of is called WIWO (walk in walk out). This is not suggested for a little one who has never fallen asleep independently before. We used WIWO for a child who has been able to fall alseep alone before but has gone through a sleep regression or sickness etc and a parent used props to help them sleep and now need to get back on track. Check out this link it might help you understand the difference.
Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)
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Oh I see, well gradual withdrawal would be better then. Will start in a few days once this next tooth is through. Do I just gradually hold his hand less and less then? What do I do when he protests? Don't know how to apply it really to hand holding?
Thanks Ema x
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Hi Ema,
How are naps going?any easier to settle him?
I have no experience with gradual withdrawal here, everythi g we have done was pretty much cold turkey.
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Hi Victoria, naps are great he goes down in his cot and holds my hand for about 5 mins and goes to sleep for around 1hrs 50 mins. Just wish he could go that long at night!!
Fed up today :'(
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Hang in there! Have nights got any better at all? Its worth posting ur routine to have a look at, as generally ST is easier when the routine is age appropriate.
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Yes post your EASY and we'll take a look. AS for handholding you would wean that the same way you would wean patting the back. You could start holding his hand till right before you know he's in a deep sleep then the next night when he's pretty drowsy and so on. There will be crying but you just need to reassure him using his sleepy phrase. The key is to do it gradually but always moving to the next stage after a day or two.
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Okay EASY is as follows Monday and Tuesday as yesterday he was teething quite bad and the whole routine went out the window as he had difficulty sleeping day and night!!
Monday WU 5.45
E 6.30 and 7.30 porridge
A 2hrs 30 ( tried stretching but he's ready for sleep after 2hrs so really hard work)
S 8.15 - 10.00
E 11.00 and 12.30
A 3hrs
S 1.00 - 3.00
E 4.00
/ A 3hrs 45
S 6.45
He woke about 8 times in the night and was Fed at 10.00, 1.30, 4.45
Tuesday
WU 6.00
E 7.15 and 8.00
A 2.45hrs
S 8.45 - 10.30
E 11.45 and 1.00
A 3hrs
S 1.30- 3.15
E 4.00 and 5.00
A 3hrs 45
S 7.00
Woke 4 times between7 and 10.30 so Fed him at 10.30,2.00, other awakenings ( about 3 ) just turned him on side held hand and put dummy in.
I had Ralph weighed yesterday and health visitor said he should only be having 2-3 bottles a day and that he should be on 3 meals plus snacks by now,he's gone up another percentile taking him to the top one so worried I'm overfeeding him, when I breastfed my other children I always Fed them before meals, is it different for formula? Having enough problems just getting a bottle down him during day and porridge and lunch down him let alone snacks as well!He's not taking to food as well as my other children did. She told me to drop all night feeds and to try CIO. Couldn't believe it!! Thought they were supposed to be helpful and now they've got me worried on top of everything else AAAARRRRGGGHHH!
Anyways hope EASY routine might shed some light Thanks xx
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Wow those naps have really lengthened havent they! Thats a victory!
Just briefly looking at your easy, I would say he is OT by the time he goes to bed. I think slowly u need to bring that first A time to 3 hours so te day shifts a little too and the awake time from last nap u til BT is not as long.
I hope u are getting some rest during the day or weekends, i know its hard with so many night wakings, we had those at some point or another. In terms of feeding in the night, im no expert at all when it comes to feeding, but Os still gets two feeds at night (9 months tomorrow), i know I have to wean one of them, but our nights only recently started getting better and if I we had a really rough night i would feed him more, just so we all can get sine sleep. Os is a big baby he weighs around 10 kilos. Do u feel he is overeating, does Ralph let u know when he is not hungry? Oskar will let me know when he is done eating whether its breastfeed or solids, he is rather explicit.
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Hi hun sounds a little like OT at BT which could cause those NW'ings. How are you settling him before 10:30. Let me address a few things as I think your health visitor in my opinion was very wrong in her advice and did nothing to help your worries.
I had Ralph weighed yesterday and health visitor said he should only be having 2-3 bottles a day
At this age he "should" be on a 4hr easy. So basically eating every 4 hours or so during the day and at night. So in all reality he would still be gettind 3 or 4 feedings during the day and some babies need more some need less. You can't really over feed a baby. They tend to self regulate unless they are overfeeding due to reflux but in that case you'd see some vomiting/reflux afterwards. I really would just remove that worry all together.
he should be on 3 meals plus snacks by now,
Again should is a relative term. My lo at this age was on 2 solid meals and they were maybe a few bites and no snacks. I found they affected his milk intake which is what he needs more of. At this age solids should be for fun. I'll see if someone else can pop on with their opinion. Can he be on 3 meals and have snacks. SURE as long as it doesn't affect his milk intake as that is where he gets his full vitamins and calories from. It sounds like you are having trouble getting him to take enough milk during the day so I really would not worry about solids right now. There is no harm in reducing solids or just not introducing more to help up his milk intake during the day. When are you doing his solids?
She told me to drop all night feeds and to try CIO.
So tough when they don't follow the same philosophy as you but you are his mum you will do what you think is right. However I think her telling you to drop all feeds and do CIO is harmful. BW obviously does't believe in CIO for many reasons. As for dropping the feeds, you can ensure he's not feeding unnecessarily at night by making sure he takes a full feed right before BT and then if he wakes before 4hrs just resettling him. So looking at your easy you feed him at 4 and 5 but are you feeding again right before bed?
As for your routine 6-7 but I'm still wondering why you turn him on his side? Can he turn on his own? Does he gets practice during the day? It sounds like the dummy could really be a prop and if he's unwilling to plug it back in himself it might be time to just wean it. I do agree with Viktoria that it might be time to push that first a to at least 3hrs.