BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: rebemuri on July 25, 2014, 02:03:15 am
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Hi there moms (and dads!!) I have read such enlightening threads and great advice from all of you that I am hoping someone might be able to shed some light on why my 4 month old wakes up soooo many times between 9pm and his dream feed at 11pm.
He is on a 4 hour EASY (or 3.5 hour as we are in the transition to 4 hours). He has hardly EVER slept through from 9pm to the dream feed. But the worst part is not just that he wakes up... it is that he will wake up a gazillion times in those 2 hours! I guess he thinks it is just another nap, and his naps are always very short (30 min each, with a few exceptions.) I have considered that he is probably overtired due to his short naps during the day, but even on those few occasions when he has had great naps during the day he still wakes up constantly before the dream feed.
Pleeeaaasseeee any advice you can give will be much appreciated! This 9-11 period is my only time to myself in the whole day (since with 30 min naps, I can barely take a shower!)
Thanks so much.
Rebeca
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Hi Rebeca
I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your question, but I also posted about my 6 month old waking after having slept for a while when going to bed. There seems to be some similarity. It started when she was 4.5 months old and had a growth spurt. Still waiting for it to settle. Can I ask you what time he goes to bed and how soon he wakes up for the first time? Sometimes I wonder if my DD considers it to be another nap too but have no idea why she started doing it.
I do hope we'll find answers and solutions soon (PLEASE!)
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Hi, Martika!! Thanks a lot for reaching out! Interesting that you went / are going through something similar. At least now I know I am not alone! LOL
DS goes to bed at around 8:45pm or 9pm, and begins to wake up anywhere between 9:15 and 9:30... and it just doesn't stop. He won't settle. We are now at a point (of desperation) that we are rocking him to sleep at that time just to make sure he really does sleep quickly so we can get SOME time to ourselves. I know we shouldn't, but I truly can't do PU/PD all day long PLUS a gazillion times between 9 and 11pm. I need a break!
Really looking forward to someone's advice.
Thanks a lot!
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Sounds like he's overtired.....can you post your whole day in EAS format? (Though don't worry if it's not necessarily in EAS order)
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Thanks!! Will be great to have your thoughts on this one. Here's my DS EAS:
E: 8:00AM
S: 10:00-10:30AM (a few days, he will sleep until 12:00)
E: 11:45AM
S: 1:00-1:30PM
E: 3:30PM
S: 4:00pm-4:30pm
S: 6:30pm-7:00pm
E: 7:00PM
S: 9:00PM (this should be bedtime but this is when the multiple wake ups begin: at 9:30PM, 9:45, 10:15, etc)
E (dream feed): 11:00PM
Thanks a lot for your support! Any help I can get will be much appreciated!
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First A time looks good, I'd be working on 2h-2h15 at this age. But after a short nap you almost certainly need to reduce that A time right down, so possibly to as short as 1h30-45 so LO isn't OT going down for the next nap. If all naps are short you may need to be aiming for LO to nap 4/5/6 times in the day instead of just 3 times. I know that makes it feel like all you do is try to get LO to sleep, but if you can get him caught up a bit some of those naps might start to lengthen. I'd also bring BT earlier while napping isn't good, maximum 12h day ie 8pm bedtime instead of 9pm which will help minimise the OT somewhat. What do you think?
Will he do a long nap anywhere eg car or stroller so you could do that once a day or so?
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I had never thought of reducing A time, so that sounds to me like a potentially great idea that I will begin to implement now! Hope it works.
DS hates the car seat. Only way that he will sleep longer is when held. Even then he might wake up but will fall back asleep very quickly. Would you recommend holding him for a few days in the 9-11pm window (now 8 to 11pm based on your advice), and see if he gets used to sleeping through til dream feed?
By the way, it means a lot to have someone reach out and share advice when you're in the middle of what seems to be a never-ending tiring ordeal... so THANKS A LOT!
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No problem :-* this place was a lifesaver for me when DD was small - and still is to be honest!
I think I would continue to put LO in his bed at bedtime, the thought being that if he isn't so OT he shouldn't wake so much. You don't want to risk a holding prop developing at BT. I would try adjusting the A times in the day, maybe hold him for a long nap in the afternoon to minimise OT as best you can if it's all going wrong. Then try again tomorrow :)
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Just wanted to report back on progress! We did take a step forward today. I shortened DS's A time as you suggested, and his last nap (in the crib) was 2 hours and 45 minutes long!! So that was encouraging. :)
The not-so-positive part was that he woke up from that long nap at 5:45PM, so I couldn't squish in another nap after that. I wanted him to be asleep by 8PM max, but couldn't get him to sleep until 8:45. By then, I'm sure he was OT so the frequent wakings from 8:45 to 11PM continued. Must have woken up at least 5 or 6 times in that small window. :(
But hey, he did have one LOOOONG nap where I could get a LOT done, and I'll try it again tomorrow. If I follow your advice to keep his A time shorter and can consistently get him to sleep at 8PM, I am hopeful that the frequent wakings will stop.
Thanks again!!
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It's great to hear there is some progress here as well!!! :) Well done on getting a long nap from him! Though, I believe, you shouldn't let him sleep for more than 2 hours. TBH, I'm the worst to wake up my DD up when I have to cap her nap. Sometimes it took me so much effort to get a proper nap from her and then I had to wake her - hated it!!! Though, it didn't happen very often, but still... But it's all for their benefit :)
I believe if you manage to get your DS out of this OT cycle his multiple waking should stop. At least it seems to be the case with my DD. Tough, we are still not out of the woods - back to some short napping and OT. I have to extend her A time and get her naps back on track. Just when I thought we cracked it... ::)
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I don't want to jinx it, but DS has been asleep since BT for 50 minutes now!!! This is a FIRST for me, so you can imagine the thrill! ;D
As suggested, I reduced A time and DS did 5 naps today, each 30 minutes long. I also put him to bed earlier... was sound asleep by 8:10PM. Although it's early to call it a victory, it seems that the advice was right on! Of course, 5 naps during the day is a lot, but hopefully his napping will get better too with time.
Martika: Thanks for your advice too! It will definitely be hard to wake up DS from a nap... I will feel like I am crazy since that is all I try to do: get him to nap well, but you're right... that is probably too long a nap and could back-fire. Why do you think they shouldn't sleep for more than 2 hours? Could they get their day and night sleep time confused?
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Great job! I'm so glad you've seen improvement :D
The decision to wake from naps at 2h is an individual one. On a regular basis I probably wouldn't let LO nap for too much longer than that at a time, as long naps may well rob from the night time sleep or make it difficult to get decent naps for the rest of the day. But personally when LO is very OT and in need of a catch up, I wouldn't tend to wake at all unless it was going to interfere with bedtime.
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Gosh, ladies, you REALLY know your stuff! ;D Your advice was right on. DS woke up only ONCE yesterday in the 8PM-11PM window. I'll repeat today and will let you know of progress.
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:D well done!!!
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;D
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Today again we only had one single wake-up in the whole 8-11pm window, so that is FANTASTIC news. I really want to thank you for giving me my evenings back! Even though I find myself making DS nap 5 times a day, it is well worth the effort. Thanks so much!
On that one wake-up, he won’t cry. He’ll just start making cute little noises (not-so-cute when you’re hoping he will sleep instead ), so I’ve thought it is probably best to give him the chance to go back to sleep on his own. However, I’ve left him alone a few times for 15-20 minutes, with no success. By then, I’m worried that his OT will just get worse, so I go in the room, hold him and walk around for a few minutes to make him a bit drowsy (otherwise he’ll either keep making noises, or start crying), and will then put him back on his crib to make sure he doses off on the crib.
Can I pick your brain one more time and ask for your advice on this?
- When he wakes up, would you leave him alone for a longer time, and see if he will fall back asleep on his own? Or is it too risky that he will get even more OT so I should I go in and help him? A
- Also, would you say it is OK to hold him til he is drowsy? I have found no other way to make him sleepy, other than holding him and walking around a few minutes.
Thanks again for all your advice! This forum is truly a blessing.
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So glad the improvements have continued :)
If he wakes at night I would leave him to it unless he is crying an 'I need you' cry. Probably better that he learns to settle alone, rather than always looking for you to come and help him out. On that note.....I would actually start putting him down fully awake, not drowsy. It's very easy for a prop to develop if you assist too much as LO doesn't know how to start the transition from wakefulness into sleep. I know at least one mum here who really struggled with that and it was only when she started putting LO down fully awake (calm is ok but eyes shouldn't be shutting) that they made consistent progress. It's a bit scary to do if you haven't before, but your LO is still at a really good age to learn quickly :)
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I kind of feared you would say that, Katherine! ;D
It sure is scary, but I think once again you are right on. I'll begin trying this tomorrow.
Thanks so much!!
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Good luck!
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Hi!
Just wanted to say that I'm thinking of you and hope your LO settles into a nice routine very soon with lots of Y time for yourself and good night sleep! Good luck!
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You're so sweet, Martika, thanks for the note!!
I haven't logged back to this website in a month since we traveled all the month of August to Costa Rica (my home country) for DS's baptism. It was amazing, and really touching to see the family loving every minute with DS and my older daughter. BUT... I can't tell you how much this trip took us back to ground zero. DS is now sleeping 5-30 minute naps at best, waking through the night, sometimes because of hunger, other times just because, and often will stay awake for 2 hours or so. I am so exhausted, sleeping only a couple of hours per day, and can't even think about how to begin re-establishing a good routine.
Actually, DS just woke up from his nap (15 minutes!!) so I'll have to catch up with you later. :(
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Hugs, post us am update of what's going on when you get a chance and hopefully we can help with a plan x
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Hi, everyone! It has taken us almost 2 weeks to get to SOME normality since we returned from our trip! Note to self: Next time I travel with DS, he will be driving me to the airport! ;D
Yesterday we followed Katherine's advice to place DS in the crib without any previous rocking or holding. Tons of PU/PD, of course... and I can already see a huge improvement. So thanks for that, Katherine. I was really scared to try it, and it was not easy (lots of crying and yelling at 4am), but it's paying off already.
My question is: We've been doing shush/pat to help DS in the process. He is still swaddled (that's next in my to-do list) so I pat him gently between chest and shoulder. He will be 6 months old next week. Is it OK to do shush/pat at this stage? Or is he too old for that? I think that really helps reduce the number of PU's that we do, so I am hoping you will say "Suuuure, it is perfectly OK and that is an aid that will be a piece of cake to eliminate later on" ;D
Thanks as always. You all are life-changers here.
Rebeca
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Brilliant work with PUPD :D well done!
If shh pat still works to calm LO that's totally fine. The main reason not to use it in older LOs is that some can find it quite distracting as they get older. But if its working go with it. Just keep 'do the minimum' in mind and step back to allow LO space to self-settle once calm x
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He has gotten used quickly to the crib, so settles very quickly... but has taken him anywhere from 25 min (best scenario) to almost 3 hours to fall asleep!! That of course leads to OT'ness, weird inconsistent schedules, early nap and night wakings, etc. Any suggestions? Again, he tends to be calm in the crib with shush pat, but it is taking him a long time to fall asleep.
Thanks!!
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Can you post your routine? He may need some A time tweaks :)
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Forgot to mention... it takes him that long to fall asleep but we KNOW he is tired. For example, last night he slept 7-8 hours at most, and today he woke up from his nap after 30 minutes (OT for sure). We tried to get him to sleep again… it took us 3 hours or so. :(
His "routine" is quite inconsistent these days. Yesterday:
E: 7:30am (had managed to fall asleep almost 10PM the previous night... very late)
S: 9:30am (slept for 2 hours)
E: 11:30am
S: 1:30PM (slept for 1.5 hours)
E: 3: 30pm
S: 5:00pm (30 min catnap)
S: Put on the crib at 6pm (expecting 30 min to fall asleep), fell asleep only at 9PM!! After that, had frequent wakings all night.
Today:
E: 5am (woke up hungry since previous day he did not eat well)
S: 7am - 7:30am
E: 8:30am
We placed him in the crib around 8:45, since we realized for sure he would be OT from the terrible night, but he did not fall asleep.
E: 11:30am (We actually fed him again even BEFORE he ever was able to nap at all, gave him a bath, and placed him right back to his crib. Poor thing, seems to spend all his day there.)
S: 12:45 - 1:45 pm (we KNOW he was OT, but would NOT fall asleep until this time)
E: 3PM
And now, I've been in the room with him for half an hour... still won't sleep. That's where we are so far. Pretty hectic day :(
THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!
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As I was reading my own post where I said that all DS does in his day is try to sleep, I realized... perhaps that could be part of the issue? Perhaps DS is not getting enough physical activity? Even though his awake times are veeeeery long, he is not doing a lot from a physical standpoint as we try to get him to sleep for a big part of the day. Even worse since he is swaddled (next on my to-do list!). Could this be the issue? Any other ideas will be very much appreciated!!
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No I don't think him spending a lot of the day in his bed/inactivity is likely to be the main issue, I think most likely you've got some UT/OT issues going on. He's nearly six months now right? This is prime 3-2 territory and its also an extremely common time for mums (myself included with DD when she was younger) to totally miss the cues that LOs need more A time. I know it seems like LO is exhausted but that's because you're shooting for a routine that's too young, so you either get UT short naps or nap refusals, both of which lead to OT overall.
An average A time for your LOs age is 2h30-3h (Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! ). You are occasionally getting good naps with 2h but that's probably only because he's really exhausted. The day you put him down 1h15 after waking from a 30 min nap he was almost certainly UT which is why he refused it. Same with putting him down at BT only 30 mins after the CN. Yes he might have been tired overall but not tired enough at that minute to go to sleep. The way to think of it is think how you feel with a young LO, probably pretty tired overall right? But if you got up in the morning and then someone told you to go to sleep an hour later, you'd probably struggle to drop off. Does that make sense?
My suggestion would be start with your first A time of the day. Bump it to 2h15 minimum then after a few days up to 2h30. Over the next couple of weeks to a month you want to be working up to 3h just so you know where you're heading. After a short nap I'd shorten the A time but probably not to less than 2h or so (unless a super short nap).
My other suggestion to save your sanity a bit would be to limit the time you try for a nap or try to resettle. You can't be trying to get him to sleep all day. That's not healthy for you and you won't enjoy your LO. I would suggest no more than 45 mins trying for a nap before you get up for some A time, and no more than 15 mins or so trying to resettle.
What do you think?
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What do I think? I think I want to hug you! LOL! You are amazing, Katherine. I absolutely did not think this could be the issue, and I absolutely LOVE the advice of limiting the insanity to 45 min of trying to get LO to sleep :) DH will love it even more since poor thing has a cranky wife to deal with on top of everything!
Thanks a million, Katherine!!
Rebeca
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Today was tons better already, Katherine! Sticking to your advice here :)
Falling asleep at night however was a challenge. Do you have any suggestions as to why that could have been? Here's today's EASY:
E: 4am (night waking)
S: 5-6am
E: 7:45am
S: 8:50-9:50 (took him 30-40 minutes to fall asleep)
E: 11:20am
S: 12:15-2pm (took him 30-40 minutes to fall asleep)
E: 3:10
S: 4:30 - 4:55 (took him 30-40 minutes to fall asleep)
E: 6:20
S: 8:10pm (took him an hour and 15 min to fall asleep!! I did not feel like I could stop and try again later, since it was already quite late at night. 90% of the time, DS was fussing, but not full blown crying, so initially I left him there. But after 20, 30, 40, 60 minutes, I did pick him up as it did not seem like he was about to settle any time soon. The last 10-15 min he was finally not fussing, but it still took him a while to finally sleep. He would open his eyes every so often... unable to sleep.)
To make matters worse, DH is super supportive and wants to help, but it seems that I am the only one craving that help as DS wants none of it . DH can calm DS by holding and rocking him, but the second he places him back on the crib, DS will cry like there’s no tomorrow… every time. So I’m kind of left alone to do it all.
Ideas, please?
Question from your previous post: When we talk about 2:30 min A Time, should I plan to get LO in the crib after 2 hours, anticipating a 30 min window for him to fall asleep?
Another question: When you say A time should not be less than 2 hours unless he had a super short nap, what would be a super short nap?
Thanks as always!!
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I'm so glad you had a better day! Looking at it he seems to definitely need/handle the longer A times so fingers crossed you're on the right track. He may need to bump up to 2h45-3h reasonably quickly over the next week or two.
He could well have been UT at bedtime after good naps in the day. You wouldn't really want the day to go longer than 13h though so I do think you're probably well on the way to two naps. If you get your second nap ending closer to 3pm I would skip a 3rd nap and do EBT of 6pm/3h A time. If the second nap finishes earlier than 3pm you'll need a CN but I would make it as short as possible, possibly even just 15-20 mins to see you through to normal BT/max 13h day.
Super short nap I would probably say is 30-40 mins or under ie less than one sleep cycle. Some LOs can do a near full A time after a 45 minute nap.
With my LOs if they took 30 mins to fall asleep I would know almost certainly they were UT. If you've been putting down at 2h, I would try increasing it to pd at 2h15, then after a few days 2h30 etc. When I time things well here my LOs have always settled within about 5 mins.
Have you read this? All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
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Thanks! Today I will try putting DS in his crib 2h15 min after he woke up, and see if that leads to quicker sleep.
I was hoping that with better days we might almost automatically have better nights too (wishful thinking, probably). So I actually haven't really mentioned the biggest problem that we have, which is a consistent 4am waking that is killing DH and me. Last night again was horrible so perhaps you can offer some advice? DS wakes up every day close to 4am, at times hungry... other times doesn't seem like it. Past few days I've been so tired that after a while I just bring DS into bed with us. Terrible practice, but tell that to the 4am me... doesn't want to know if that will make it worse in the future... just wants to get some sleep! He'll be in and out of sleep until around 7am, when DH takes DS to his crib and he will usually take a short nap. Here is how it went last night:
Yesterday I tried Wake to Sleep at 3:15. It did not work. When I got in his room he was already moving a bit (perhaps the sound of the door opening, perhaps something else). I still went in and rubbed his cheek for a second. He moved a little more. I stepped out and thought I had nailed it. But at 3:50am he woke up. I came in, did just one PU/PD and he slept again in his crib. Then at 4:30am, he woke up again. DH and I tried to settle him and it all went downhill from there. DS ended up in bed with us. Had a partial feed at 5:45am (he may not have been hungry after all), DH rocked him to sleep at 7:30 and he slept until 8am.
Please HELP! DH is ready to hire someone that can help at night, and I really want to to avoid that if I can... but I understand that he needs some sleep, poor thing. Can you please work your magic one more time, Katherine? ;D
Thanks!!
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What is his mood like on waking at 4am? Is he really upset/crying etc for you? Or is he just messing around?
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He's usually just messing around, like he's done sleeping. Though I have to say, last night I tried wake-to-sleep one more time, and it DID work, so I am hopeful again.
PU/PD has worked incredibly well. I am very glad we followed your advice and followed through there. He is still resisting the crib every time, though... crying, wining, etc. Mostly first nap of the day (usually seems OT regardless of what time I place him there) and BT. That will stop eventually, right? In your experience, how long does it usually take for crying and PU/PD to stop or drastically reduce?
Thanks a lot for all your support, Katherine.
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That crying/whining could be UT, not OT. You're still putting him down fairly early for a six month old :) I'd try pushing another 10-15 mins before you put him down and see if that helps. The 4am WU I think could also be UT so pushing his A times could well help with that too. I suspect things may settle a bit once you are on a two nap routine consistently - let's hope so!
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Thanks so much. We've made a lot of progress following your advice. DS (now 6 months old) is resisting the crib a lot less now, and falling back to sleep on his own quite consistently. We are in a much better place now thanks to you, Katherine. Can't thank you enough.
The dreaded 4-4:30 wake-up is still a big reality for us. I can't seem to be able to get rid of it! DS wakes up at this time but lays veeery quietly in his crib, so I don't even realize that he''s been awake since then until around 5:15-5:30 when he begins to fuzz. It is only then that I check a camera that I have in his room that I realize he's been awake for a LOOONG time. When I go in his room at 5:30 he is so happy to see me, but then when he realizes I am not playing, he begins to cry. I am unsure if he is hungry or not, but after a while of crying that's the only thing that I find that settles him. He will usually take a full feed at that time. Here's a typical EASY routine for us:
E: 5:45am (after being awake since 4 or 4:30 am)
S: 7am-7:45
E: 9:45am
S: 10am-11:15
E: 1:40pm
S: 2pm-3pm
E: 5:40pm
S: Depending on what time he woke up, I may squeeze in a final 20 minute catnap in the stroller at around 4pm. (if he woke up before 3 or 3:30pm)
S: 7 - 7:20pm (I try to get him to bed at 6:20 since he's been had such a long day, but sometimes it takes him that long to fall asleep)
E (dreamfeed): 10 - 10:30pm
He is certainly taking many more naps a day than he should. I would love to be in a 2 nap routine by now, but with those very early wake-up's and naps that don't last as long, I have no idea how to get there.
Looking forward to your advice to get rid once and for all of this dreaded early wake-up!
Rebeca
PS. We tried wake-to-sleep and it hasn't been as successful as it was with DD. At times it simply doesn't work (wake-to-sleep at 3:30, wakes up at 4:10 anyway), and other times it does seem to improve the situation a bit, but not as much as we would hope (he began to wake up a bit later for a while... 5'ish).
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(continuation from previous post)
Oooh, the dreaded 4am wake-up continues. Here’s yesterday’s EASY:
We attempted wake-to-sleep at 3:20am. DS woke up at 4am and went back to sleep only until 5:15 am. I did not realize this until 6:20am when he woke up again.
E 6:30
S 8:55 - 9:20
E 10:20
S 11:10 -2:05 (awake 15 min in between, went back to sleep on his own)
E 2:20
S 4-4:20
E 6:20
S 7:25
Last night, again, we attempted wake-to-sleep at 3:20am. It may have disturbed his sleep since DS began to move at around 3:30am… seemed to have been awake til 4am when he went back to sleep on his own. Then woke up again at 5:15am but he wasn't crying so I left him in his crib and fed him an hour later. And here’s today’s routine so far:
E 6:20am
S 8:20 – 8:50
The 30 min catnap early in the morning is also a trend now. He seems to sleep more in the late morning/early afternoon, but not the first nap of the day.
Any suggestions?
Thanks!!
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A night feed is still completely normal at this age. What happens if you just feed in the dark and put him straight back down? I think that early 7-7.45 nap is throwing everything off. If he doesn't resettle at the early waking I would take the start of your day as the time you first hear him (quiet time in the crib = sleep time in my book, if I don't know LO is awake they aren't!) and make sure he does a full A time before he goes back to sleep. He is waking so early because he is getting his first nap so early, so you will need to push that out to get to a good routine.
I would also push your A times to 3h at least. You're getting typical UT length naps of 1h-1h15 which is why you are feeling like you need a 4th nap some days. I would totally avoid 4 naps, that even causes trouble for us here at not quite four months old. You'd be better (say your day starts at 5.45am) to do 3h A times, hope for two good naps and then early BT of 5.30/6pm. If you get short naps then throw in a third one and push BT out to 6.45pm/13h day. What do you think?
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Makes a lot of sense.
I heard him this morning at 5:15. He was not crying so I left him in his crib and did not feed him until 6:20 when he started to complain a bit more. He did do a 30 min catnap at 8:20am this morning, so I guess I am in trouble now :D
What would you have done differently this morning? Should I have waited at least until 9 or 9:30 to put him to bed for his first nap?
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8.20 was ok, that's a decent A time after WU. I would then shoot for about 2.5h A time after he woke from that nap and hope for a long one, or at least one you can resettle. How is it going?
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OMG, I asked someone here to watch him while I took a bath, specifically said "don't let him sleep yet"... next thing I know, DS was sound asleep at 11am. I'm in for a bumpy ride tonight! He slept for 2 hours (until 1pm), in 30 min intervals. He kept waking up, then falling back asleep. I am planning to take him for a stroller ride at around 3 to see if he takes a catnap. Ideally, he should be awake by 4pm so that I can get him to bed at 6:30, asleep by 7pm.
I guess we did not improve much on the A times today :(
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Woooh! Improvement today! :d DS woke up at 6:10am, and I am one happy mom! As always, thanks a lot, Katherine.
Today I put him in the crib at 8:45 to stretch his A time as you suggested... it was REALLY tough though... DS was extremely tired. He cried a lot, had to do quite a bit of PU/PD again. Do you think he will get used to this "late" nap or should I expect the first nap to be this tough?
It did seem the right thing to do to give him longer A times as he slept for 1.5 hour! Fantastic first nap.
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Yay much nicer WU :D. (5.45am here - ugh).
Great first nap too. A lot of babies do struggle and cry when you stretch their A time, just keep things as low key as you can, maybe even have him in a sling or something so he's nice and calm. And stick with it for a few days. Hopefully he'll get used to it soon x
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6:30am wake-up today, so you were right on, Katherine! Thanks a million.
How does a 3-hour A time work with a 4-hour EASY routine? DS woke up at 6:30, so should be asleep around 9:30, and next feed is at 10:30. Am I missing something, or might he wake up early from his nap due to hunger? Not sure how to make this work.
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When he's up to 3h A time and 2 naps it becomes a 4h 'plus' routine with a general pattern of eat (milk), eat (solids) an hour later, nap, eat again on WU. But some of the feeds will be more like 5h apart. Generally with solids in the mix LO will last the time ok, but if not you could always offer a mil top up 30 mins or so before nap x
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Katherine, I can't thank you enough for all your advice. We are in a muuuch better place now in terms of sleep.
I can't however seem to get the naps right. He will usually nap for an hour or so. Here's a common EASY routine. Will you please take a look and see if you would change anything?
E: 6:45am (wide awake since 6am, but stays quietly in his crib until 6:45)
S: 9:15-10:15am
E: 10:30am
S: 1:00-2:10pm
E: 2:20pm
S: 4:00-4:20pm (this nap has to be in his stroller, otherwise I am afraid he won't be asleep just 2 hours after he woke up)
E: 6:15pm
S: 7:00pm
E (dream feed): 10:15pm
Thanks!!
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Hey, there... just checking if you had had some time to look at our routine and see why the naps are so short. It's actually getting a bit worse... 40 min naps or so. So I can't get rid of that third nap, even though DS is now 6.5 months old. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot!
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Hi hun, so sorry things a bit hectic here at home, in middle of some awful regression with DS....I digress. Sorry you're struggling too :( I think you're probably well into the 3-2 and now need to work to push your A times to 3h and cut the CN out. I know its hard on a short nap day though. I used to have a rule if second nap finished after 3pm I would skip the CN and do BT after 3h A or so, often 5.45/6pm. Otherwise I'd do a short CN. How was yesterday/today?
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Sorry to hear you are having trouble too! Confident that you'll find a way out very quickly (a lot quicker than most of us! ;D )
Most naps are still quite short... now 20-40 min. Every once in a while he will pull off 1.5 hours, but that's rare.
Would you follow your "3pm wake up deadline rule" :) even if the nap was only 20 min? In other words, if he sleeps 2:40-3:00pm, would you do a 6pm bedtime? (and quick question I've been wondering about: when you say bedtime do you mean time you put LO on the bed/crib, or time (s)he actually falls asleep?)
Thanks! And fully understand if it takes a while to get back to me... no worries. Take care of your issues at home FIRST so that you are well rested and ready to keep giving us the great advice that you always do! ;D
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:-* thanks
Is your LO teething by any chance? The only time we got super-short 20-25 min naps here was when LO was in pain. Do pain meds make any difference at all?
Hmm, if it was only 20 mins 2.40-3pm, that's a tough one....I think if the morning nap had also been super short you'd have to do a third nap, but make the day 12.5-13h maximum. If the morning nap was ok I would be tempted to be brave and just shoot for 5.30pm BT. I did that once or twice during the 3-2 with DD.
Usually BT = time LO goes to sleep. So if LO always takes 15 mins to drop off you'd put them down 15 mins before if you see what I mean. Mine have usually (unless things are a bit off) gone to sleep within a few mins so I might say 6pm BT and LO may actually have gone to sleep at 6.05pm. I don't think those few mins difference matter all that much though :)
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Thx for the advice. My only fear with 5:30pm - even 6pm - BT is that LO usually sleeps a maximum of 11 hours at night (6:45 or 7pm to 5:45am or so). 4:30 am wake up would be reeeallly early! Or do you think he'll keep his regular wake up time?
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My experience with EBT is that as long as you get LO down early enough so they aren't OT, they will often sleep to normal time or even later than usual. The only way to know is to try really! I am a big fan of early bedtimes and have sometimes had DD do a 13h+ night when I've used it x
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Hi, there! Things have been going pretty well lately thanks to all the advice that I have received in this forum. (Katherine, you've been a HUGE help, so big thanks to you!) Wake-up time however has been getting increasingly worse (earlier), and it is now at 4:45am! I've been trying early BT (DS asleep by 6pm or even earlier), but doesn't seem to help. He is 7.5 months old now. What would you recommend? Here is a typical EASY for us:
E: 6am (DS lays quietly in crib from 4:50AM wake up to 5:45 when he wakes me up)
S: 8:30-9:30 (I try to hold his first nap until this time. Of course he is OT by then, but I am afraid that an early nap will reinforce the early wake-up.)
E: 10am (then solids lunch at noon. DS is not a good eater. His milk intake is already quite low (4-5 oz average), and solids lunch is only an ounze or two at most.)
S: 12:30-2:00
E: 2:00
E: 5:30
S: 6pm (depending on when he last woke up from his nap and how long it was, I may or may not do a 3rd catnap from 3:45 to 4pm... just to make sure he can make it trough the night. If he does do a 3rd nap, he goes to bed at around 6:30.)
E: 10:15 dreamfeed
Ideas pleeaaasee??? Thanks!!
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Ugh, we are in early wake up land too at the moment, you have my sympathy! I think you need to push your morning nap later. You are right when you say an early nap can perpetuate EWs, thing is if you are trying for a long morning nap then 8.30am IS an early nap. Bearing in mind you'd expect him to manage at least 3h A time at this age the best you can probably hope for is a 5.30am WU with a nap that early. I would do one of two things, either push the first nap later gradually by a few mins a day, or (crash and burn strategy) push him to stay awake until at least 9.30am and stick with it for a few days. He will be fairly horribly OT to begin with but hopefully his body clock will reset fairly quickly to allow him to sleep in later, or at least be resettled at 4.45am. What do you think?
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Sounds good, I'll try that. Will be horrible at first for sure since DS is awake since 4:50 or so... which means that by 9:30 he will be up for over 4.5 hours. Being so OT he will probably do a SUPER short nap (15-20 min), but it really does make sense. Like you say, I am almost planning for a 5:30 wake up the way I am structuring his routine these days.
I'll try it and will keep you posted! Thanks so much as always!
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Good luck and holding your hand, doing something similar here with DS at the moment x
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Hi there!! It seems that every time I get something fixed, something else gets broken! DS just turned 8 months old. Around the time I went back to work, he started to wake up hungry at night... around 3 or 4am. He has always been a picky eater (percentile 5 or so in the weight curve), so the caregiver wasn't able to get him to drink much milk or eat much food at first. He is now back on track in terms of milk intake... actually, he is having more than he ever has (still low on solid food, but he'll get there... eventually!) but he continues to wake at night. I've tried feeding him, and not feeding him. Usually, he won't go back to sleep unless I feed him, but sometimes he won't go back to sleep ANYWAY, with or without the milk. I can't really do a proper wake-to-sleep because his wake up time varies from 3 to 4am. He does take the bottle, but I wouldn't think he is hungry based on total milk intake during the day. When I do feed him, I just give him a few ounzes so that he doesn't begin to replace his morning feed with this new middle-of-the-night feed. Could it be a habit, to wake up and have his bottle? Or could he really be hungry even though he has been having enough milk lately? Here's a typical EASY:
6:15 wakes up
6:45am Bottle (always breastmilk)
9:20am Nap for 1 hour and 15 min (if he has a bad night, at times he won't even last the 3 full A hours)
10:30am Bottle
12:30pm Lunch (not much, unfortunately)
1:45pm Nap for 1 hour and 15 min
3:00pm Bottle
4:30pm Fruit
6:00pm Bottle
6:30pm Bedtime
10:30pm Dreamfeed (DF has been getting progressively more difficult, he is taking less and seems sleepy, but I am reluctant to eliminate it since DS is low on weight...)
Then he will wake up between 3am and 4am, at times he will go back to sleep fairly quickly (30-45 min), other times he will stay awake until 5:30am! He won't cry. He will just lay happily in his crib, usually quietly, other times singing and chanting.
HELP PLEASE!!!!
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That's the thing with these LOs, they keep on changing!!
The timing and way he is waking suggests possibly a bit of undertired. Your nap lengths would suggest similar (1h15 is fairly typical UT). I would be tempted to start gently pushing out his morning A time 5-10 mins every few days until the nap lengthens. Probably leave your other A times the same for now (BT will creep a touch later) and see how things go.
He could well be hungry though....at 8 months it would not be unreasonable to have a night feed if solids are t fully established. Does he eat any proteins, fats etc or still just fruit and veggies?
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He does eat (just a little bit) of proteins and everything else (puree with meat, vegetables, rice, etc.) But not a lot. Last few nights have been VERY difficult to give him the dream feed. Last night he just had 1.5 ounzes, that's it. He did wake up at around 3:30am, but fell back asleep on his own about half an hour later. I am thinking we need to cut the DF. Counter-intuitive for sure since he does not eat much or drink much milk either, but he wants none of it and doesn't seem to be very hungry til morning. I just hope I can replace the DF ounzes during the day so he does not lose weight.
--- BTW, pushing his morning nap til later has been working GREAT. He is now sleeping a lot more during the day... so thanks a lot for that :) ---
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Well done you! Yes I'd go for dropping the DF and see how it goes x