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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: txaggiemama on August 20, 2014, 02:56:45 am

Title: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: txaggiemama on August 20, 2014, 02:56:45 am
Hi all,

Our DS is a sensitive 7 mo old. He has never been a great sleeper, but he has slept through the night a couple of times (so I know it's possible). With in the past month or so he has started going through separation anxiety. He has been waking twice at night, sometimes three times, and will nurse both sides each time. So I've struggled knowing whether or not if it's habit or true hunger. I think since I have fed him each time that he has started to rely on that and is truly hungry when he wakes up. How can I wean those night feedings?

I have tried only offering one side and laying him back down, but he FREAKS out and won't calm down unless he nurses the other side. Pat/Shh works to a certain point, but I think he is starting to rely on the patting :/ Also, the night wakings are at different times. Here is a typical EASY:

Wu&BF: 6:30
Solids: 8
N: 9:30-10:30

BF: 10:30
Solids: 12
N: 2-3:30

BF: 3:30
CN: 5-5:30 (sometimes, this really depends on when he wakes up from 2nd nap)
Solids: 6
BF: 7:15
BT: 7:30

NW: 11
NW: 3

WU: anywhere from 6-7

Any help/suggestions is greatly welcomed!

-One tired mama!!

Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: txaggiemama on August 23, 2014, 13:56:00 pm
Can anyone help me??
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: katie80 on August 23, 2014, 16:38:56 pm
Hi, sorry your post was missed. I hate to say it, but I don't know that those NWs are completely inappropriate. It's still very normal for a 7mo old to wake twice to be fed. Does he go to sleep for naps and bedtime on his own? Does he eat much for solids? Is he closer to 7mo or 8?

There's a chance he's waking because he's either UT or OT from the day's naps. I wonder if you gently nudged the first one out to 3h15-30min A time, he might sleep longer. It seems like he can handle the longer A time and then sleep well for the second nap, so if he can for the first one too, you would be able to fully ditch the CN, which might be causing some of the NWs.

What do you think?
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: Martini~ on August 23, 2014, 18:01:07 pm
And I would be tempted to hear something more about your weaning and solids introduction. It seems that your son is truly hungry at night. It may be common to feed at night after 6mo but two night feeds, and both both-sided seems a lot to me. Was that always like that? Or this seems to me a novelty to his routine?

So the questions I would have is if his day feeds are full feeds and what are you giving him for his solid meals.
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: dache on August 23, 2014, 18:39:41 pm
Just following along. Im trying to work out the same nw (10.00 and 2.00).
I am already trying what you`ve suggested Marti. Increase solids during the day and Im also trying this
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0 from today. It worked for 5.30am wakings so I hope it will work here.

Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: Martini~ on August 23, 2014, 19:55:57 pm
Dache - just to be clear, I am not suggesting yet any solids increase. The trick about feeding after 6mo IMHO is still to have decent milk feeds (3 as a minimum with 20oz milk intake) but also have 3 solid meals established. Established doesn't mean amazing amount of food but you would like you LO to be used to different kinds of food, eat couple of cubes at each meal and introduce some not-milk protein (like meat or lentil).

If these NW which txaggiemama is mentioning were present before and they just continue through months it is a different story compare to if they are new and started to happen after 6mo. Maybe because of too much solids or because of too much distraction LO is not taking enough milk during day or maybe solids are not introduced properly and are not supplementing milk-based diet. Meantime because of 6mo GS LO is genuinly hungry.

Difficult to say without some more info from txaggiemama:).
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: dache on August 23, 2014, 20:34:33 pm
Sure sure (its something one of my fav characters on tv would say :D )
That`s exactly what I meant. Right now we are still not on 3 solid meals. There are many days where she wont eat anything other then milk and banana.
Funny fact, my lo went trough 7 200ml bottles yesterday (3 at night) and  little solids
3-4 days ago she would only have up to 100ml on a feed, had some to none solids. So my intention is to change that.
Im prolonging the meat tough  :-\ dont want her to eat meat  :'( but I do offer protein in other ways.

I read what you said, you are wondering how his solids meals are, not suggesting to increase the amount he eats, I got that.
Anyways, my intention was to fallow along, so maybe I should have just said that.  :D
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: Martika on August 25, 2014, 10:21:35 am
Hello!

I wonder if I can join this thread as we seem to be going through a similar problem plus some other NW issues. I don't want to divert attention from txaggiemama but I thought there was no point starting a new thread if this problem is already being discussed.

I posted a while ago RE my DD's wakings shortly after going to bed. Kathrine helped me with the issues and we are so much better these days with just an occasional waking. However, our NWs have become so bad that all my nights turned into a blur in between being asleep and awake. She's awake nearly every hour, though there's no consistency with her timing.
Anyway, here's our situation.
My DD turned 7 month last week. She'd always had 1 NF but since about 2-3 weeks ago she's been having 2 feeds. Initially I thought it was a GS so I just fed her. Now I don't think she really needs it but I'm not sure. She sometimes wakes less than 4h after her last feed and is looking for milk. If left alone she might stay awake for a while before starting crying or she might get back to sleep after extended waking involving lifting her legs, rolling, climbing her cot bars, playing with the dummy and so on. If fed she gets back to sleep straight away. I try to limit it to 2 NF but the rest of her NWs is just maddening.
Here's our typical EASY (within 30min)
WU 7
E 7
Breakfast 8.30
A 3h15m - 3h20m
S 10.15 - 11.30 (in ideal world we want 1h30min nap but get more like 1h - 1h15min; though if I push her A time a bit further she gives me an OT nap:(
E
Lunch 12.30
A in the region of 3h-3h5min
S 14.30 - 15.45 (same story as with moring nap; sometimes broken nap)
E
Dinner 16.30-17.00
Bath
E
S 19ish depending on the last nap
and then it starts with feeding anywhere between 10pm and 1pm on a good day :(
Please if anyone can pinpoint the problem I'd be very grateful. BTW, she's EBF.
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: txaggiemama on August 25, 2014, 22:50:17 pm
Hi all! Sorry for just now replying. For some reason I didn't get an email notification that anyone replied. Woops!

So the last few days have been all over the place. But today was a little better. I've been working on longer A times. So here was today so far:

Wu: 6 (nursed and tried to get him to sleep a little longer, but no luck. )
BF: 615 (no solids this morning due to errands)
S: 9:30-10:20

BF: 1030
Solids: 12
BF: 1:50 (trying to get more milk in him)
S: 2-3:40 (much better)

BF: 4
Solids: 5:15 That's where we are so far.

To answer some of the questions above:

His solids consist of fruits and veggies and some meat. Usually 4oz of fruit & 4 oz of veggies and a bit of meat every now and then. He doesn't handle grains well, he gets constipated VERY easily (which has contributed to some of the nw i think). Is this about right? Should I up his solids? Some days he'll have 12oz but usually it's 8oz solids.

He has woken up twice at night since he was born. We have had a handful of nights of just once or even none, but the majority of the time he's been alive it's been twice-three times.

And he's almost to the 7.5 month mark.

Right now we are trying to stretch A times to 3.5 hrs and I'm trying to nurse more often during the day to see if that'll take the place of his night feeds. Is this a good plan? Also, he does not nurse for long. 5 minutes max :/ He's usually fussy at the breast, which makes me think either distractions or low milk supply. But he's gaining well, so I'm thinking it's just the age of getting distracted easily. Trying to nurse in quieter settings, but that's a little difficult with his 2 yr old sister. Any advice on that end?

Thanks so much for your replies! So good to know I'm not alone in this. My hubs has no clue what the solution is haha.

Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: txaggiemama on August 26, 2014, 01:45:38 am
Oh and I meant to mention that he is an independent sleeper. I nurse him before bedtime, but he falls asleep on his own in his crib. He also falls asleep on his own for naps. Sometimes he'll need a little pat/shh to help, but not always.
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: katie80 on August 26, 2014, 04:53:19 am
I think your plan sounds good. I wonder if that morning nap would be longer with solids and/or a BF before, like the afternoon nap? I think what you're feeding him for solids sounds fine... I've never measured, so don't really know. :-\ Have you tried giving some higher fat foods like avocado?

He's probably quite efficient at the breast and if he's gaining fine I don't think you need to worry about supply. It's hard at this age with distractions going on, another reason why those two NFs can still be common. Can you set your two-yr old up with an engaging activity (or something special just reserved for when you're nursing), to see if you can do a less-interrupted feed? Offering the top up after solids is another way to do it, so that you don't run the risk of him having smaller main feeds due to the top up right before nap.

Martika - I'd start a new thread if I were you. Totally understand your point about keeping similar topics together, but it can be a bit confusing to answer different people in one thread and then you can get specific advice. :). If she's waking up that often, my guess is some kind of discomfort.
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: Martini~ on August 26, 2014, 06:50:53 am
Agree with Katie!
Solids intake seems sufficient or even more than sufficient, you are feeding him with different kind of food, you offer meat - everything looks fine. It's probably his milk intake during day which should be somehow increased. I would say he seems to be in a kind of reverse cycling - as he is taking approx. 300ml (2 both-sided milk feeds?) at night it may mean he is not hungry and eager to eat milk during day.

My ideas would be:
- try to offer only small breakfast closely after 7am BF; even if his morning BF is small (he maybe full after night feeds) it should encourage him to take a full BF at 10-11am
- I would be tempted to offer some milk-based product for breakfast: cereal, youghurt or full fat cheese
- if you are afraid of constipation I would:
1/ try not wheat but oats cereal (easier to digest) or even gluten-free products if you suspect he may have any kind of intolerance
2/ always offer it with fruits (I would make a plain cereal and add some fruit puree as commercial fruit cereals usually do not have much fruits but a lot of sugar:)
3/ you may also give some prunes (1 tsp) after cereal serving - it's a natural laxative
- I would also offer lunch slightly earlier than 1,5h after milk feed or even closely after; if he is taking small BF, 1.5h after the BF he may be hungry and that's why he eats a lot of solids and than is not hungry enough to take a proper breastfeed afterwards
- agree with Katie idea about top-ups, I would offer breast just after solids as a kind of drink after a meal as offering it before nap can make him off the next feed
- try not to offer tea later than 5pm (if possible) if his BF is at 7pm so to encourage him to take a full long BF before bed

Another idea I would have is taking some care of his day sleep. I would be tempted to cut out the catnap completely and base day on 2 naps consistently (only offer 3 naps if both first and second are short). If 2nd nap ends about 3-4pm and was at least 1,5h he should be fine to get till 7pm BT without being OT. If it ends at 3pm, I would rather go for earlier BT if needed, not the catnap.
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: txaggiemama on August 31, 2014, 02:44:47 am
Sorry for a delayed response. I wanted to give the changes a couple of days to see how he did, then we went out of town.

I added some of the suggestions of adding more milk-based products, cutting out CN unless necessary, and topping up after solids with breastmilk. Two nights ago he only woke up at the 4am feed, then was up for good at 6am. But last night he woke up twice again.

About how long should I give the changes to see if they all help? I was really hoping for at least some improvement by now. Would wake-to-sleep be a better option? I really don't think it's hunger anymore. More comfort nursing. I was also reading on the gentle removal plan. Since he already falls asleep on his own and at the nightwakes he goes back in his crib awake and falls asleep on his own, should I just patt/shh through the wake ups?? Just getting a bit discouraged after 5 days and not much improvement :/
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: katie80 on August 31, 2014, 04:13:02 am
Sorry you're feeling discouraged. Although, I think you'd have to give it at least a week, if not two to really know if things are changing. But, if you think he's not truly hungry, you can work at phasing out the NFs. I'd pick one to start with. W2S really only works if the waking is habitual. Can you pinpoint one of the wakings to a certain time? If so, you can try W2S. Otherwise, you can resettle with shh/pat or use the gentle removal plan.
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: Martini~ on August 31, 2014, 05:22:41 am
Agree with Katie. Don't feel discouraged. Even if he woke up because of hunger it for sure became his habit also. So when you ruled out hunger as a main reason, you know may start to gently remove the night feeds. It's your choice how to tackle it. Is your son still taking both sides for both feeds at night?
There different options but generally:
- you may just decide that you feed only once at night and use any other method to help him go back to sleep like shh/pat, PUPD or any other
- you may let him nurse but cut the time by a minute every day
- you may start to give water instead if milk and than wean water to nothing - more gentle plan but probably also will take longer to wean him.

Just for sharing, my best friend has 9mo who was eating once at night for ages. Bottle-fed, he was taking around 60ml only but he needed it to go back to sleep. But she tackled it. It tooked 2-3 weeks and there couple of nights when she spent 1-2h close to his bed to help him get back to sleep but it worked. So once again, don't feel discouraged. You will get there:)!
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: txaggiemama on September 02, 2014, 23:51:47 pm
Thank you so much for the encouragement! We've had some pretty good nights lately and I wanted to share what has worked for us. So the biggest thing that helped was moving the video monitor into his room (it was in DD's). I had re-read the SLOW down chapter of the baby whisperer and decided I would wait, watch, and listen to his cries before running in there. When he woke at 2 his eyes didn't even open. He was fussing in his sleep, but not full out crying. So I decided wait to see if he could make it through the transition on his own. Ten minutes of fussing off and on, no full out crying, never opened his eyes, and he went back to sleep. Pretty much same thing for the 4am transition. Then he was up at 6. I'm thinking that when I would hear him in the middle of the night he was just trying to self soothe and I was basically interrupting & waking him up by going in to nurse. The next night he still woke at 2 & 4 but maybe 5 mins and he was back asleep, eyes never opened. Last night he slept from 7-5:30!!! Amazing. I got him back to sleep for another hour so he started the day at 6:30. So I just wanted to remind other mamas to keep SLOW in mind, even when it's so hard in the middle of the night:
Stop
Listen
Observe
What's up?
(p76 of SotBW)

Other things that I believe have helped:
Adding full fat yogurt. The probiotics in the yogurt are really helping his bowel movements. Having a shorter nap in the morning (45 mins ish) and longer in the afternoon (about 2 hrs). And "topping up" nursing after each solids meal.

Oh, and I am by no means encouraging CIO. I would not have done this if we didn't have the video monitor and I could clearly see what was going on. I believe we need to find the best ways to help our little ones be able to sleep independently (for their benefit & our's!)

Thank you again for your help and encouragement! Here's hoping he continues down the path of good sleep :)
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: katie80 on September 03, 2014, 03:44:27 am
Awesome update... well done!! Thanks so much for sharing. Of course that's not advocating CIO in any way... it's true whispering! ;) ;D
Title: Re: 7mo multiple nw
Post by: Martini~ on September 03, 2014, 06:45:00 am
Great news honey, thank you so much for sharing! And totally agree, it's definitelly not CIO.