BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Mackjack on October 03, 2014, 08:35:58 am
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Hi,
DS is almost 9months (am I counting that correctly - he was born 16th Jan so I count the 16th of each month as a month older? With DD I used to count her as a month older every 4 weeks but was told that was wrong).
Anyway, he has STTN for months, BLW, 3 meals a day, 4 hr EASY, 4 bottles a day. He seems to be developing pretty quickly - crawling since 6.5months, cruising at 7mo, now he can nearly stand unaided.
A few weeks ago we had a horrible time where he had tonsilitis then a viral infection then got two teeth. His NWs were awful (screaming for up to 3hrs at a time). There may be some teething still going on here and there but I'm at the point where I now have no idea what his "ideal" A time should be and I'm pretty sure this is messing up his NS and causing NWs. And the past couple of days we're getting EWs. His A times have always jumped really quickly and I only ever seem to have a week or two of stability before his routine needs changing but at the moment he can do anything from 3-4hrs A time, sometimes a bit more.
I'm also wondering if he could be in the very early stages of the 2-1 transition as it's really hard to get a second nap sometimes. I don't know if I should cap his naps, let him have one long one etc etc. Yesterday for example, he was up at 5.25am. He lasted til about 9.30 when I put him down for a nap- he fussed a bit and I had to go back in to settle him but he ended up sleeping from 9.40 for ages. I was almost going to let him sleep up to 3 hours and see if he was aiming for a one nap day but realised that this would've left me having to put him to bed really early - about 5pm so didn't want to risk it. So I woke him at 2hrs and in the afternoon he only managed a 2nd nap of 10mins in the pram. So last night he woke at 2am (although I settled him v quickly) but then woke very lively at 5am - he wouldn't settle so we took him into our bed (so annoyed I broke one of my golden rules here!!!) and he fell asleep again eventually at about 5.45/6 for about 45mins/1hr. Thing is, the day before, he had a great night's sleep but fell asleep on the school run after about 3hrs???
Anyway, I'm waffling - here are a few days' EASY - I'm going to go back 4 days as Monday night was AWFUL!! I should say, whenever he wakes at night, I always give meds straight away - just in case it's teeth:
MONDAY
Sorry I don't have timings but I think he just had one nap this day so I put him to bed early
BT 6.10
NW 1am-4am only crying a little bit to start with but it escalated
NW 4.30
NW 5am
Gave up and put in our bed about 5.45to have his milk (he always has his morning milk in our bed) but he fell asleep after drinking it and slept til 6.30
TUES
WU 6.30
S 10ish woke at 45mins, sshed back to sleep, slept another 45 til 11.50. Very grumpy when he woke
S 2.30/40ish - 3.10ish in car and pram
BT 6.50
NO NWs
WEDS
WU 6.10
S 9ish on way back from school run. Transferred to cot. Slept about an hour in total. V happy when he woke.
S 13.25-14.05 v grumpy when he woke
S 18.45 stood up when I left the room so had to go and settle him but he went down fine
No NWS
THURS
WU 5.25
S 9.40-11.40 gave him milk as it had been 4hrs and he got v drowsy but was very lively once put in cot. Left him for a bit then went in and settled him v quickly. Woke him at 2hrs
S 16-16.15 in pram
BT 19.15 really didn't know what time to put him to bed so as he'd had a short nap I went for a 3 hr A time but maybe it should've been shorter? Went down fine
NW 2am - back to sleep v quick
NW 5am - then in bed with us slept another 45mins/1hr as described above
WU 6.45
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Sorry I know it was a looong post but any suggestions?
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Hun, can't post now but want to let you know you've been seen and I will be back later!
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Sounds like you had a rough time there with illness... I've often found that LOs come out the other side of illness having made a bit of a developmental leap (I don't know what the link might be, maybe their immunity suffers when they're developing quickly?) so it is likely that he may now need an increased A time. I'm afraid our best guess at an average A for this age is 3-4 hours, which is a big window, so you might like to try to pin it down a bit more precisely for your boy. 3 hr 30 might be a good place to start but bear in mind that LOs at this age can prefer shorter or longer As at different times of day.
Looking at the days you've posted, I think it's pretty clear he still does need two naps, but it's all about placing the sleep in the day at this stage. The thing about 2-1 is that it is a transition, so it can go on for quite a long time, for those who start earlier, it might take longer of tweaking naps and getting the balance right. I think you probably are right now to start thinking about capping naps, but that just means trimming them appropriately, rather than making them drastically short, iyswim.
I think Thursday probably shows that 2 hours is too long for an AM nap, so I'd shoot for 1 hr 30 max (with an open mind on trimming it to 1 hr 15 in the near future). I'm noticing that a few of his naps fall in the pram or the car, I know he probably just dropped off on you ::) on the school run but napping in the cot would be more restorative. I'd try to get the AM nap definitely in the cot, and be more flexible on the PM one.
Also have a read here:
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
HTH a bit?
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Thank you so much. I agree with everything you said. Yes unfortunately some naps happen in the car/pram when I really don't want them to - but that's thanks to the school run. He had a great night at grandma's yesterday - I asked her to put him down early as he had two rubbish naps on Friday and he ended up sleeping 6.15 - 6.10 and then two 1.5 hr naps (I told her to wake him from the second one). He has been a bit whiney today so am wondering if we're in for some teething again.....sigh..
I think one of the problems is that particularly for the afternoon nap for some reason he doesn't really show sleepy signs so he ends up being up a long time and then resists when I finally try to put him down - which I've always thought was him being ut but maybe hes worked up from being ot?. So do you think I should try to get him down in the afternoon after 3.5hrs even if he's not giving me sleepy signs yet?
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I had pretty good luck with set nap times. They don't work for everyone but I like to be able to plan out my day. My DS had his two naps at the same time, every day, regardless of when he woke. Sometimes he was ridiculously tired by the time it was nap time but he did sleep well! Just a thought.
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Regarding afternoon nap - we always had it. DS doesn't show sleepy signs but it doesn't mean he is not ready for a nap. I must say F was resisting afternoon nap for ages, but right now when I want this nap to end before 4/4:30 and I put him down earlier for this nap, he is surprisingly happy to sleep on it even in his cot:). So I would give it a try.
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Thanks ladies, that's really good to know. Think I'm going to have to do something like that - put him down for the afternoon nap even if he doesn't think he wants it!
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Back again...sigh...
So we had a great week of am naps of about 1hr 20, then short pm naps (think about 40mins max) and then 12 hrs night sleep. But it's all going wrong again and we are still getting random NWs. In the AM, he just will not sleep more than 1hr25 tops. And then in the PM, his nap usually falls on the school run so it's quite short - but from my experiences in the past few days, I think a long PM nap (anything more than about 30/40 mins) means BT resistance.
The other day, he had a 1hr20 AM nap then as it was the weekend he got to sleep in his cot in the PM and he slept just over an hr. He seemed really grumpy when he woke so I decided to give him just a 3hr A time til BT (7pm). He would not go down. He was messing about but also crying for an hour. Finally got to sleep at 20.15 and woke about 5/5.30.
When he has NWs, I can't figure them out. Sometimes they're very brief, sometimes they go on for 2.5hrs. Last night for example, he went to bed at 18.30 and woke at 22.35. All he wanted was a hand on his back - he would settle and seem asleep so we stayed with him to make sure. Then we'd leave the room and 10 mins later he would wake again. Sometimes when I had my hand on his back, he would seem asleep but then his arm would reach out to play with the cot bar. This went on for an hour and he woke up this morning at 5.45.
Also, at BT sometimes he really messes about although we know he's tired - while we're holding him to get him drowsy to go in the cot, he will shout "Dad, Dad", slap our faces, pull our hair - we don't know if this is UT or OT as sometimes we just plop him in his cot and he will shout a bit then go to sleep and other times he shouts a bit and ends up crying and we have to go back in his room and he won't settle for ages.
So here's a couple of days' EASY:
SUNDAY
WU 5.55 - then eventually fell asleep again in our bed til about 7
S DH could not get him down, he fought - so he ended up going down about 12 for about 1hr 15. Too late in the day for a second nap so we pushed him til BT (18.05)
No NWs
MONDAY
WU 5.55 - was yawning within an hr
S 9.30ish - woke after 35 mins and I managed to settle him quite quickly but he only slept about another 40mins til about 11.
S 14.40-15.05 in pram. I was only going to let him have a very short nap but he woke himself
BT 18.30 went down fine
NW 22.30 - 23.30 we were in and out of his room as described above
TUES
WU 5.45
S 9.45 - seemed tired all morning but got a slight second wind so I went with it....still asleep now
I just don't know what I'm shooting for. I know some of you suggested to stick to a 3.5hr A time which is what I do for the AM (he normally lets me know he's tired anyway) but he never does more than 1hr25 (don't know if that's good or not?) but in the PM he only gets a short nap and I don't know whether to try to improve that or not as, as I say, a decent PM nap sometimes means a difficult BT.
It's interesting that on days when we've had to give him a ridiculous PM A time because there's no time for a second nap, he usually sleeps at night really well (but does seem really tired the next day).
I am DREADING the clocks going back...
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AARGHH!!! The binmen just woke him up!!! I knew it was going to happen - I heard them coming so watched him on the monitor and sure enough, they woke him. So he's had an hour's sleep. Great. I feel so angry!!!
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So he slept til 10.45. Then his next nap started at 14.45 in the car and continued in the pram. I have to say, I woke him at 15.15 as I'm so scared of him fighting BT. He went to bed at 18.30, had a NW at 2.45 which took 15 mins to settle and woke for the day at 5.45. I gave him milk in our bed and tried to get him back to sleep but he was having none of it though he must be tired. So now I've got to hope he makes it through the school run without nodding off in the pram. ...
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Sorry he woke at 5.25 today not 5.45 (those 20mins matter!). And he went down for a nap at 9.25. He woke after 1hr 10 on the dot - which he does quite a lot - what does that sort of length nap mean??
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Any ideas on these NWs anyone?? We had another one last night.
Yesterday after his 1hr 10 nap, he had an afternoon nap of 40mins in his pram which is longer than usual so I wasn't sure whether to treat it as a "good" nap or a "bad" one. I opted for a bad one and thought I'd give him a slightly shorter A time before BT (3hrs). He fought so I brought him back downstairs and tried again 30mins later and he went down fine but he woke at 12pm for 30mins and then up for the day at 5.30 but fell back to sleep in our bed til 7am. So EASY yesterday was like this
WU 5.25
S 9.25-10.35 (1hr 10)
S 14.35 - 15.15 (40mins)
BT 19.15
NW 12pm for 30mins
WU 5.30 - came in our bed for milk and then slept again til 7am. Am pretty sure this is going to mess today up. He's still awake now (over 3.5hrs later) and seems fine.....?
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Ugh, sounds like you're having a rough go! Is it possible your DS could be ready to make the 2-1 transition? Just looking at your previous EASY's, it looks like you're naturally moving towards that. It took me a solid month to get there when DS was 11months but I know some babies do transition early. Have you tried W2S? Are you able to resettle at EW instead of bringing him to bed and feeding him? I know that there is usually a phase, often during the 2-1 transition, when babies wake unreasonably early (mine included). I'm just wondering if this is what is going on?
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Just wanted to let you know that I'm in the same boat, and should really be in bed right now, as the LO will likely wake at 4am! Just trying to keep my spirits up, but really feel like throwing in the towel. If you want to swap war stories, I'm here ;)
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Thank you both so much for replying!
Yes, I think there's a bit of 2-1 going on but it's going very slooowly. Would that be causing the NWs too do you think? Because I just can't figure them out - they can be brief or they can last ages.
Yesterday, after falling asleep in our bed til 7am, he held out til 11 for a nap. I was really hoping he might surprise me with a lovely long nap but he only did 1hr 30. There wasn't time in the rest of the day for a second nap (as he just didn't get tired again early enough) so I got him to bed at 5.50pm. He woke at 12.00pm. Usually we just put a hand on his back to resettle him - sometimes it takes minutes, sometimes we are in and out for ages - we can never predict how long it will take. So last night I thought maybe I should try WIWO as I'm sick of standing in the dark for sometimes ages. I did it for about 30mins before DH suggested a work night probably wasn't a good time to try a new technique so I went back to just the hand on the back and it took 2.5 hrs!!!
With regards to the EW, I think we have reinforced this habit (so annoyed with myself!!). Because before, we were taking him in our bed for his milk then laying him on my chest to encourage him to go back to sleep out of desperation. Yesterday and this morning he woke at 530/5.45 and both times, just drank his milk and went straight back to sleep in our bed with no encouragement. Up til now, I've not been resettling at the EWs because I know I have to be up about 6.45 for the school run anyway so I just couldn't be bothered with the fight but it's half term now so I'm ready to tackle it. What's the best course of action do you think:
- resettle as usual with hand on back?
- PUPD (did this with DD as a baby but never tried it with DS - no idea if it will work with him?
- WTS?
lauradj - what happened with your DS during the month it took to move to 1 nap?
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I tried wiwo the other morning at 3.40. It took 2.5hrs - he didn't go back to sleep til 6.10 but he slept til 7.40. I really want sure if wiwo was the right tactic - should it only be used for separation anxiety because I don't think that's his problem. And I wasnt sure I was doing it right - I just put my hand on his back till he went quiet then left the room and when he inevitably started crying again I went back in and repeated.
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Back again.
We've had no NWs since I last posted (although I'd still love some advice re my question above about WIWO as they're bound to return) but we're still having EWs and I just don't think I'm getting these naps right.
Today, as some of you suggested, I tried sticking to a 3.5hr (ish) A time whether he seemed tired or not. I also thought I would experiment with giving him a capped AM nap in the hope he'd have a nice restorative PM nap. So I woke him from the AM nap at 45mins and he was really happy - didn't bother him at all - and I put him down for his next nap at 3.5hrs (well actually it was nearer 3hr 40) and he only slept 1hr25 and woke up really grumpy and clingy which he does when he's tired. I'm fully expecting NWs tonight as well as the usual EW.
Reason I tried a capped AM nap is that at the weekend he fell asleep in the car in the morning for about 20/30mins and so that was his AM nap. Then in the afternoon he had a 2hr nap, went to bed fine about 7.30 and woke at 6.10. Not a massive lie in but better than the usual 530/45 - so I wondered if the short AM/long PM nap was the reason.
So... what do I do now? I just don't know what else to try.
Last couple of days EASY
MON 27th Oct
BT the night before was 8pm as he fell asleep in the PM at 3.10 - we didn't know how long to let him sleep so gave him an hour and he resisted BT at 7.30 so I had to take him out of the room and try again a little later
WU 5.45 - tried for 45mins to get him back to sleep - no joy
S10.30 - 11.45 - always wakes up grumpy from this nap
S 15.20-15.55 - in his pram
BT 19.15/19.20ish - was aiming to give him a 3.5hr A time but he came crawling over to me whinging which always means he wants his bed so I put him down a little earlier
No NWS
TUES
WU 5.25 - again, would not go back to sleep
S 9.05 - capped it at 45mins (9.50). Woke happy.
S 13.30- 14.55 - no sleepy signs but went down fine. Woke grumpy
Am thinking I should aim for a 3.5hr A time before BT??
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Also I should say that first A time on Monday was ridiculously long - but I was trying to follow his cues and that's when he started showing tired signs. Probably should've put him down earlier.
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Hi. Just wondering if anyone has advice on WIWO as per my earlier post (3 posts up). Because last night he woke at 3.10am as his nappy had leaked and he was soaked through (aargh!). I changed him, cuddled him and put him back to bed. Seemed fine at first but soon started crying so we did WIWO rather than what we used to do which was stand with our hand on his back shh-ing for ages. But it took 2hrs! Which is no better than our old method. Ridiculous that his NWs can last so long. So I just wanted to check I was doing it right and that it's the right tactic. As I mentioned, I just go in to him, put a hand on him and say my sleepy phrase and when he's quiet, I leave the room. Last night, sometimes he cried as I left, sometimes he started crying a few minutes later. Please help! It's so horrid when I hear him wake on the monitor at night and know I've got aaages of settling to do! ! Particularly as I know he's a definite independent sleeper! !
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Hi again. Sorry, I know I post on here loooads but any further advice? Would be so grateful!
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I'm so sorry you were talking to yourself there for a bit, many apologies.
Reading back over your posts, I think you have a Low Sleep Needs baby. Are his NWs usually happy? I mean, he wakes happy, he has energy, he's only crying because he wants parents in the room?
When he does a 1hr25 nap in the morning, does he wake happy? and seems rested? In that case, I would call that his full nap, and be happy when he does it. Equally sounds like a short PM is the way to go for you too. Overall, a 1hr 25 am nap and a 40 min or so pm nap doesn't sound much but if it gives you a good night, I would definitely go with it. All babies are different and some just don't want that much day sleep.
I found that my LOs had a witching hour past which I could not let them sleep or BT would be all over the place, so maybe think about that, it might be around 3.30/4.
HTH a bit, and again, sorry you did not get a reply earlier. :)
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Hi Weaver. Please don't apologise - I'm grateful that anyone even reads my posts!
I had thought about LSN but I think I get quite a lot of OT behaviour so it's really hard to tell. To answer your questions, when he wakes from his 1hr25 naps in the morning, he's usually crying and looks like he wants to go back to sleep. He does cheer up eventually. The long NWs....sigh....well, he usually starts off crying then is quiet when we go in. Often he can settle pretty quick and we can leave the room and he'll stay quiet for 5/10mins but then start crying again. And as the time goes on, he gets more and more upset and we just have a repetition of this cycle - go in, quiet for a while, start crying, have to go back in. And then sometimes during the 2.5hrs, we'll have a brief period where he just lays in the dark staring at the wall. With my DD, UT NWs were always chatty and happy - DS's aren't really like that. And with regards to short AM/long PM nap - although I gave it a try in half term, it was pointless really as I can't' do it during school time as the afternoon pick up will always interfere with his nap.
We had another epic NW last night due to a leaked nappy. So yesterday looked like this
WU 5.50am (his usual time at the moment)
S 9.45-10.45. He woke crying but seemed happy as soon as I went in the room and was pretty much ok.
S 14.30-15.30 Afternoon nap was in the pram as usual
BT So due to short PM nap I *was* aiming to get him to bed after 3hrs A time but didn't get him down til about 18.25/30. He was doing his thing of slapping my face, waving his arms about as I was holding him in his bedroom. I used to think this was UT behaviour but I think it could be OT. He went down fine.
NW 22.00. I gave him meds straight away just in case but it was clear he was deliriously tired and he went back to sleep in mins (so I assume this was an OT WU).
NW 12.45 for 2.hrs 15mins - he woke as his nappy had leaked (again). I changed him in the dark, held him til drowsy (which is what I do when I put him down for naps and BT) and put him down. He was quiet when I left the room but then started crying about 5 mins later. So I did WIWO for 1.5 hrs. Then tried staying in the room as that was getting me nowhere. Then left room and again, he started up a few mins later. So hubby took over. Finally, hubby left room, he started crying but then went back to sleep at 3am. (We also gave another dose of meds just in case)
WU stirred at his usual WU time of 5.50 but woke at 6.10
If it helps the EASY the day before was:
WU 5.50
S fell asleep for 5 mins on way back from school so battled for an hour to get him to sleep in cot when we got home (as he looked really tired but the 5 min nap obviously gave him a boost. Got him down after an hour and he slept 10am-11.10am
S 14.45-15.30 in pram
BT 1640/45 - went down easily
NW 23.45 settled very quickly (we gave meds too).
NW 23.10 again, settled v quickly
Why oh why does it frequently take him 2.5hrs to settle when he wakes at night??? He only had 1.5hrs day sleep yesterday - if it's UT, I just don't know how much less sleep I can give him!!!
I'm so, so fed up with this. My life is on hold as every day is structured around trying to get the best naps possible out of him in the hope of a good night. And every night I'm on egg shells waiting for that first murmur on the monitor.... It's making me feel angry and resentful and I hate myself for feeling that way.
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It's making me feel angry and resentful and I hate myself for feeling that way.
Oh lovey, I understand that of course, it's completely natural to feel that way, yk? Don't beat yourself up.
I'm glad you've responded so clearly. So you're pretty convinced that he is not LSN and most of this is OT. The mama instinct should always rule :)
Every afternoon you go on the school run. When does that have to happen? And how long does it take? Let's try to shape things around that. I'm thinking overall you probably want to nudge his AM nap later, and then the PM nap can fall a shade later too, so hopefully the whole day would shift up a bit. The 'day before' EASY above looks good to me. If I understand it, he had two short NWs, and overall a 13 hr night.
As for WIWO, I would drop that for now. It's clearly driving you potty and doesn't seem effective. I never did it at night, tbh. If you know it's going to be a long NW, then I would just lie down on the floor beside the cot, or somewhere in the room, with your hand on his back if you need to. I would arrange things in there so you can be comfy, so preposition a pillow, a blanket, whatever. That way you will have some rest. I think it will be clear if he's settling quickly, or not. I would stay until he's fast asleep and then leave. Hopefully that will work a bit better for you.
You can also do small things like put some lavender oil on a tissue in his room to help him calm down and so on. And please do something nice for yourself, it's not been easy for you.
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Oh thank you for your kind words - nearly made me cry :)
I *think* I'm right about the OT but I'm starting to lose faith in my instincts to be honest!!
The school run starts at 2.45 and we get home about 3.30/45.
Made a typo on the day before EASY - he went to bed at 18.40/45 (not 16.40/45) - so 11 hr night with 2 short NWs.
Yes, WIWO is driving me mad to be honest. Only started it as I was worried he was needing someone in the room to fall back to sleep and that maybe that was a kind of prop but WIWO isn't making the wakings any shorter.
Thank you so much.x
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11 hr night with 2 short NWs.
Still not so bad!
Do you do the school run with the buggy? If he is in the buggy the whole way, then I would try to rig it up for sleep. Otherwise I think a nap after 3.45 is just going to be way too late. 3.30 was generally the time I had to have my LOs up, if I recall.
On WIWO, I wasn't as clear as I thought ::) what I mean is, try him and see if he settles quickly. If he does, brilliant, if he doesn't then set up camp. I wouldn't settle in the first time he wakes unless it's absolutely crystal clear he's not going back to sleep.
I think 8/9 mos is a peak time for separation anxiety and while he may not have full-on SA he might be realising a bit more about people leaving and him being alone.
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Yes, I do the school run with the buggy. He's pretty good in that as soon as I put the snoozy shade on it and tilt him back he settles down to sleep. He just doesn't sleep for a good length of time is all.
Ah, I understand about WIWO. So maybe walk in and out a few times and if that doesn't work, then set up camp? He's just so confusing as he can settle really quickly and let me leave the room with no noise and be quiet for 5-10mins. Then he starts up again.
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BTW, he only napped an hour and 5 mins this morning (9.30-10.35) and was clearly not happy when he woke. He seemed very tired just now so I've just put him down for his second nap at 13.40 - so that's only 3 hrs A time. He's never had a PM nap before the school run before but I thought it would be better to put him down at the first signs of tiredness rather than string him out til when we leave for the school run at 14.45 and risk OT. Assuming he he sleeps more than an hour, I'm going to have to wake him to do the school run but thought this was the best course of action - then I will just have to get him to bed as soon as I can tonight?
I'm wondering - I know I said that short AM/long PM won't work as I'd have to wake him from the PM for the school run but do you think if I just let him have 30mins in the AM, then just 3hrs A time then a PM nap before the school run, that could work? I've been fixated on 3.5 hrs A time but if he can do a shorter A time after a shorter nap, then maybe it could work?? So something like
WU 5.50
S9.15 - 9.45
S 12.45 - whenever (although this could backfire if he has a short nap)
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Well that was a big fat fail. He's woken after 30mins and sounds miserable. So I've almost certainly set myself up for an awful night. I could cry....
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Hi just popping on to offer support, don't cry sweetie sometimes it's just the way it is and who knows why they don't sleep.
I'd of thought a 30 min nap was OT, have you tried an uncapped first nap then a CN on the school run?
The long NW if hard to get back to sleep for us were UT and easily settled ones were OT but like you say I'd suspect OT on short naps.
Can you do a super early Bt if naps are short?
Totally agree with weaver on the setting the bed up on the floor, we used to keep a stack of pillows a mat, and a throw in DS bedroom for long NW....WI/WO for that length of time is just soul destroying.
If it works in a few mins then go for it, if not tell LO sleepy time and I'll lay here till your asleep then no words just the occasional shush it's night times etc x
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Hi Haribo. Thanks for your suppport. Yes, uncapped AM and CN on school run is our usual routine but he never does more than 1hr25 in the AM and usually wakes up miserable. And we've done super early bedtimes too - well, I say super early, I've never tried anything less than 3hr A time to be honest. Earliest he's been to bed is 5.50pm.
Do we all think the long NWs are definitely routine related or as Weaver says, is it a bit of SA too? Just because the reason he woke last night was because he was wet through from his nappy - but it still took 2hr 15 to get him back to sleep. We've had that before too - waking up because he's wet through and taking ages to get back to sleep. But usually, as I say, he just wakes up for no real reason and takes forever to settle again. Unless it's an early eve WU which are easy to settle.
And if I camp out on his floor, am I in danger of creating a prop? Or is it ok as I'm just reassuring him and making him feel secure that I'm there when he needs me?
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It's prob a bit of everything as like weaver said SA starts at 8 months ish, so he could be waking from a routine issue/teeth/developmental etc but then the SA kicks in.
Sometimes these things just fix themselves and we never really know why.
For us long NW are routine, teeth, or developmental.
It can create a prop but the times we've done it it never has or it just takes a quick cuddle and back in bed once you feel the extra neediness is over. x
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Yup, long NWs for us are teeth or discomfort, where LO goes back to sleep but then wakes again. The inability to get back to sleep is generally understood as UT so routine related. But that's a general thing, so you'd need to think how it applies to your LO.
You might create a small prop with sleeping on the floor but I think if you're not starting out there, then he won't be demanding it, iyswim. In any case, it will be easier for now than WIWO and get you a bit of rest. I never had problems with it tbh, because it was a MOTN thing, so once they were sleeping and didn't wake up, it didn't matter :)
Slightly OT but why do you think he flooded his nappy those two nights? New brand of nappy? Does he need to move up a size?
Routine-wise I would suggest that his first nap is too early. Can you push it out a shade, with the aim of heading gently towards 10 am? This would hopefully full his EW forward a bit, as a first step, and it might give him a longer PM. It does sound like long AM, short PM, and EBT as necessary will be what you aim for, because of the school run.
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The nappy flooding - to be honest, I think it's when I put him to bed on a full bladder. Usually, I like to let him wee after his bedtime milk and then change him again. It's happened in the past and it turned out I was using nappies that were actually too big so I've dropped a size.
I will definitely try pushing out the first nap. That's the only nap he shows me sleepy signs for so I usually put him straight down when I see his cues. But maybe when he starts seeming sleepy I will just walk around with him for 15minutes to keep him calm and then put him down.
By the way, last night, after waking from that 30min nap at 14.15, I was planning on getting him to bed really early but due to DD's after school activities etc, I didn't manage it and he didn't go down til 18.45 (so 4.5hr A time). We had two early NWs - one at 20.30 (which tbh I think might have been caused by noisy fireworks outside) and one at 22.30. Both were very brief and easily settled and he woke at 6.05am. So I'm not quite sure what to take from that? Do I try to put him to bed exhausted so that if I do get NWs they're only OT ones which are easily settled??!? (Probably a bit mean!)
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Just popping, my DS also had to be put to bed really tired to have a nice 12h night. It is a tricky game, tired but not OT, but that's how it looks at our home:).
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Both were very brief and easily settled and he woke at 6.05am.
I'm really back to thinking he's LSN. What do you think? Impossible??
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No not impossible at all! Had an, ahem, interesting day and bedtime today which will probably make you think that even more! Will update tomorrow - better try to sleep now as who knows what tonight has in store...
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I'm thinking UT too, fingers crossed for a good night x
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Right so, yesterday:
WU 6.05
S Weaver, I stretched him out as you suggested and put him down at 10am. He woke at 10.35 very upset. Managed to resettle him after 5/10mins (haven't tried to do that in a looong time). And he went back to sleep til 11.25
S 15.00-15.35 in pram
BT as the last nap wasn't particularly long I thought I should go for a shorter A time of 3.15. Mistake. He would not go to sleep. Had to leave DH to sort him out in the end as I had to go out. He didn't manage to get him down til 20.00
No NWS
WU 6.30
So is it LSN? Or needs longer A time? I'm stuck. Because we've had days like this before with about the same amount of sleep where he's gone to bed fine. It could've been that he just needed another 15mins A time before bed but he got himself so worked up, he didn't settle til 20.00
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Seriously what is going on!!!
Yesterday's EASY was a bit stupid but it shouldve definitely made him OT but we still got a 2.5 hr wu last night! !! Here's how our day went
WU 6.30
S stretched him out again til 10.20, had to take l resettle at 30 mins and he slept til 11.40
No second nap - we did the school run and he didn't nod off at all and was fine all afternoon. Didn't mean to give him a ridiculous A time but by the time we got back from school it was too late for a nap
BT 18.00
NW 12.45 for 2.5 hrs
I was trying to really pay attention to his behaviour during the NW - he didn't seem to be bothered if I was in the room. He kept snuggling down, going back to sleep then waking crying 5/10 mins later crying. I'm at the end of my tether with this. I so nearly did CIO - clearly I DO NOT intend to do that but I just don't know what to do anymore. As soon as we hear a murmur on the monitor, we know we are going to be awake flee ages and it's just infuriating and exhausting! !
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*for* ages
Btw, he woke at 6.10 this morn
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Big hugs, I would guess that NW was OT if he was finding it hard to nod off. It was a long day at his age when the nap was early in the day if that makes sense.
How's nap gone today?
Of course I'm sure you won't do CIO hun as you know that won't really solve this issue, I know it's tough but it will get better honestly x
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I just don't know what to do anymore. As soon as we hear a murmur on the monitor, we know we are going to be awake flee ages and it's just infuriating and exhausting! !
Oh lovey, I hear you on infuriating, it's exactly how I would feel. If you feel near breaking, come here and yell at us :) or ask DH to help, maybe give you a night off.
So, first off to clarify, we don't want to get him OT, as that in itself will cause sleep disruption, what we need to do is find his sweet spot and get the sleep there. It's a question of distributing his sleep throughout the day so he gets enough at the right times. I think you're close! That may sound mad to you, sorry, but let me explain.
For that first nap, yes, I did suggest that you try and push it later, but if you've done that with a sudden big jump in A, he will be getting OT, which seems to be the case as he's waking at 30 mins. Great that he is going back to sleep, but maybe hold steady and don't keep pushing him. Usually we suggest increasing by 15 mins for three days at a time to allow LO to adjust.
Second, I think with this first nap, there is a point at which you need to wake him up, in order to ensure he gets his second nap in the buggy, and you don't get more NW. I suggest trying getting him up by 11.15 for now. There's a bit of trial and error, it might be a shade earlier or later, and will probably need to get earlier as time goes on.
With where we are now, I think he's on the lower end of sleep needs, not massively LSN, but definitely below average. I think an hour and a bit in the morning and 30-40 minutes might do him and give you a good night, that's my current hunch.
I think last night's NW was OT, with no nap at all in the afternoon, but you do say he settles down and then wakes again. Has he any teeth coming? Have you tried meds?
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Point from my side... My best friend had the same issue however her son did it later (almost 11,5mo) but he is rather HSN. He was refusing second nap and he did long NW. He could do a one nap day but he also had NW after such a day.
The case for him was length of the day. He still needed 2 naps to survive the day, but 12h night was out of his reach. So the length of the day was the solution, not even the nap length and total day sleep. So my BF is now sticking to 12,5-13h day, first nap uncapped (1,5-2,5), than second nap always in a buggy (15-30min). She doesn't wake him up too much (she hates it), she also does second nap in a buggy as firstly there is no problem with settling and secondly he just does a short nap in a buggy and in a crib he would take a longer nap and than had problems with settling at BT.
HTH
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Hi ladies. So sorry I've not replied to you - internet has been down.
So, first to respond to your points - Martii - I did wonder about the length of the day issue but we've had NWs regardless of day length so I'm not sure.
Weaver - your point about discomfort - we usually give him meds during a NW and it makes no difference at all. BUT you did get me thinking (and I hope you don't all roll your eyes and think "why didn't you think of that earlier"!!) - he has mild silent reflux. His last prescribed dose was 2 x 2.5ml of Ranitidine which I used to give morning and bedtime. I have been weaning him off this for weeks and only been giving him the bedtime dose. I really thought he was getting over it but your post made me think maybe not. So, the other day I went back to giving him a morning dose too...and he napped for just over 2hrs. Something he hasn't done in a loooong time. The next day, his morning nap was short again (1hr15) but he had milk not long before he napped so i thought IF it is a reflux thing maybe the milk before the nap made him refluxy and made him wake early.
Also, I took your point about not pushing his morning A too fast but all of a sudden he seems to be dealing fine with 3.45-4hr A time in the AM and not waking at the 30mins mark.
So I've been going along with this reflux theory and I know you suggested to cut the morning nap but I wanted to experiment a bit and let him sleep to see what happens. So the last few days we've had a few days where he has had long naps in the morning (and woken up happy), then a really short PM nap (around 20mins waking no later than about 16.20) and then he's been going to bed at 20.00 and waking at 6am. This is by no means an ideal EASY but it seemed to be helping with the NWS. Until yesterday. Yesterday he had a short AM nap (although woke very happy)and a short PM nap. He seems to need 3.5hrs A time before bed nowadays but when I got him to bed he suddenly became massively OT and was crying. He ended up waking at 00.50 for 2hrs.
I'll post a few days' EASY below but I'm wondering if even though I've put him back on 2 dosesof Ranitidine, I should go back to the doc, and get his Ranitidine dose adjusted to see if that helps??
SUNDAY -(PUt him back on 2 x doses of Ranitidine)
WU 6.05
S 9.50-11.55
S 16.00 - 16.20
BT 20.00
MONDAY
WU 6am - fell back to sleep in our bed til 7am
S 10.55 - 12.10
S 16.05.16.20
BT 20.00
TUES
WU 6.30
S 10.15-12.15
S 16.05 - 16.25
BT 19.55
WEDS
WU 6.10
S 10.00 - 11.10 - woke v happy
S15.00- 15.25
BT 19.10 seemed OT
NW 00.50 - 2.40am - he wasn't crying at all when I was in the room with him, just fidgeting about. He would seem settled, so I'd leave the room for about 10mins and then he'd strike up crying again. Eventually hubby went in which DID make him cry but he settled eventually. He didn't seem in pain - just fidgety really.
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Hanging over the side of the cot at 2.25 am. It's been 2hrs so far. I'm giving up on this. There is simply no rhyme or reason and I can't analyse it a minute longer.
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Honey, so sorry :(
Absolutely give yourself time off thinking about it, everyone needs a break sometimes.
But when you're up to it, did you go back to the doc re:reflux? And what sort of day did he have before this NW?
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Thank you. Yes we had his reflux meds increased.
Bit of a messed up day - he woke at 6.40 am but fell asleep in the car at 8.40 for about 20 mins. Next nap was about 12.45 for 1hr10. I tried to get him to bed as early as poss but best I could manage was 18.30. NW was 12.30 am - about 2.45am.
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Bit of a messed up day - he woke at 6.40 am but fell asleep in the car at 8.40 for about 20 mins. Next nap was about 12.45 for 1hr10. I tried to get him to bed as early as poss but best I could manage was 18.30. NW was 12.30 am - about 2.45am.
I think that's your explanation then!
If that happens again, I'd be tempted to (a) push him a little so he naps a bit later or (b) APOP a teeny CN and keep with normal BT.
Sorry for your rought night!
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I know - but these wakings seem to happen whether the day is a mess or not :(
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Couple of posts up you had three nights in a row with no NW. Unless I"m reading it wrong. Seemed like just after you intervened with meds, he started to sleep much better, no?
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Yes we seem to get a few good days and then we have NWs. I'm not sure the meds have made much difference. Sorry, I'm just moaning now aren't I when you're trying to be helpful! !
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Well, you're there so you probably have a better idea what's going on but from here, it does look like the meds might have helped.
I think perhaps what happened here: (Your post - I had to open another browser to figure this out, I'm so non tech savvy!)
SUNDAY -(PUt him back on 2 x doses of Ranitidine)
WU 6.05
S 9.50-11.55
S 16.00 - 16.20
BT 20.00
MONDAY
WU 6am - fell back to sleep in our bed til 7am
S 10.55 - 12.10
S 16.05.16.20
BT 20.00
TUES
WU 6.30
S 10.15-12.15
S 16.05 - 16.25
BT 19.55
WEDS
WU 6.10
S 10.00 - 11.10 - woke v happy
S15.00- 15.25
BT 19.10 seemed OT
NW 00.50 - 2.40am - he wasn't crying at all when I was in the room with him, just fidgeting about. He would seem settled, so I'd leave the room for about 10mins and then he'd strike up crying again. Eventually hubby went in which DID make him cry but he settled eventually. He didn't seem in pain - just fidgety really.
(End quote)
is that the meds kicked in, he slept better. His WU time was creeping forward (even a 7am one day!). What I think makes the difference for him is the PM nap. It looks like he is very sensitive to PM OT - and perhaps that wakes him in the night? Not that he needs more PM sleep but *when* that sleep takes place, iyswim.
That's a bit abstract. So, concretely, I would say to start pushing his AM nap a bit later (gently) and trying to keep his PM nap around the 16h mark.
I can imagine you're pretty fed up of the whole thing by now! Wishing you a quiet night.
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Hi Weaver. Thank you so much for your advice. The am nap is gradually creeping later which is good but it means I don't always get to give him his 2nd nap as he fights and it gets too late. But maybe I should just let him have a v late 2nd nap and therefore v late BT as the early BTs don't seem to be working that well. Today for instance he napped 10.45 til 12.35 but didn't get drowsy again til about 5 pm so no 2nd nap but BT at 5.45. I'm dreaming of a 12 hr night but I know there's going to be some kind of WU (especially as he has a nasty cold which kept him up last night)!
Just got to grit my teeth and get through this phase really. As I say the am nap is getting later so hopefully we will be on one nap soon enough and I'm hoping nights will start to get better then. Thank you so much again for being patient, understanding and giving your advice.
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I found that once 2nd nap got late u just allowed 20 mins at 4pm to tide him over to BT.x
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Hi all. I just wanted to update in case it helps anyone else who is having the same problem - things are by no means sorted here but I think those of you who suguested OT is the issue might be right. I'm still having to experiment with naps and BT and I've had some rubbish nights but more and more OT is making sense as the cause (although I'll probably change my mind tomorrow - haha!) I am trying my best to get through this and will try to keep you posted. I would love to hear from anyone else who has experienced long NW's due to OT - it just seems so odd as you would think UT=long NWs and OT=short NWS.
Anyway thank you all so much so far - I'm sure I will be back. ...