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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: newkidontheblock on November 09, 2014, 14:34:34 pm
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Okay, please HELP! DD is changing the game yet again! She has been sleeping through the night from 5 weeks 7 to 7 with a DF between 10 & 11. We just went on holiday and routine stayed consistent. She came back with the flu though and still sleep remained unchanged. The flu led to congestion, which made sleeping tough for her and led to multiple wake ups after bedtime but that was mainly discomfort. Since then ( 1st Nov) she has picked up a habit of waking at 8.30/40 crying along with multiple night wakings. Could you please take a look & tell me what you see
1/11 - 8.30 WU crying - PU/PD to resettle
2/11 - slept through
3/11 - 8.30 WU screaming & crying - all attempts at resettle failed -- nursed down
WU screaming & crying again at 1 & 4 -- all attempts failed -- had to nurse down
WU crying 5.30 - resettled herself. WU 6.45 crying - nursed
4/11 - WU crying 3 am - could not resettle -- bottle 3oz
WU 5 am but resettled herself
WU again 6.30 and got her up for the day
5/11 - WU crying at 8.40 / 1.45/ 3.30/ 5 & 6 but resettled herself
6/11 - slept through
7/11 - 8.20 WU crying - could not resettle -- bottle 2oz
WU crying at 5.30 -- resettled herself
8/11 - WU 7.20 - PU/PD to resettle -- AWAKE when DH went in for DF & rejected it
WU crying at 3.30 -- bottle 3 oz
WU crying at 5.30 but resettled herself
9/11 WU crying at 7.30 -- PU/PD to resettle
I can't seem to find a pattern in this. Previously she would let out a few sleep cries at 6 am but easily resettle herself. What gives now? Is this just how things go after an illness? We are VERY consistent with bedtime & bedtime routines. I was thinking maybe this is just due to OT? WDYT? Today we put her to bed at 6. Naps are bad through the day so can't catch up on OT that way.
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What does her daily routine look like? Is she well now? Just wondering if her day needs a tweak other than just the recovery from illness. Around 6 months is generally when lo's go to two naps a day, miht she be ready to start that transition?
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Hi. Yes, she is well now but we are still continuing with the steam inhalation. Her daily routine has also taken a hit. It wasn't great to begin with due to terribly short naps but we were getting the am nap at least for 1 1/2 hours. 2 weeks ago we were getting 3 naps of 1.5 - 40 mins - 30/45 mins.
Here is yesterday and today's routine (yikes)
8/11
7 - WU + feed (not hungry)
9.45 - 11.45 -- nap 1 ( 25 minutes in crib -- rest in arms -- could not settle even with PU/PD)
WU + feed (hungry)
2.35 - 3.05 -- nap 2 (resettled but WU crying as soon as hand was removed. Would not sleep even when nursed or held)
feed (HUNGRY)
4.50 - tried to PD for catnap. Lots of crying
5.20 - 6 -- nap 3 (in sling)
feed - bath- feed
7 - sleep
7.20 - WU crying -- PUPD once to resettle
DF 10.30 -- AWAKE - gave DH a huge grin and refused to eat at all. He put her back in her crib and she went back to sleep on her own
3.30 am - WU crying Bottle 3 oz
5.30 - WU crying but resettled
So far today
7.30 - WU + feed
9. 45 - PD 10 - 10.34 -- nap 1 -- could not resettle
11.15 - feed (hungry)
PD for nap 2 at 12.25 -- needed help going to sleep-- nap 2 -- 1 - 3 -- slept on her own for 30 mins after that I had to resettle thrice every few minutes and keep my hand covering her eyes & holding her body for the rest of the nap.
3 - feed (good)
4.30 - feed (good) bath - feed (okay)
5.40 -PD - started crying -- 6 - sleep
7.30 - WU crying -- resettled PU/PD
9 - WU crying - could not resettle-- DH is in there feeding her now
I was advised to drop the catnap, hence the super early bedtime to try and add to night sleep. But she has already been up twice since then, so I don't think that's working
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The average A time for her age is 2.5 to 3 hours, so I would suggest to try extending the first morning A in hopes of getting a better and more settled nap there by allowing a longer A to the next nap and then have them better spaced so there is no need for a cat nap. I would for sure give it some time on two naps before deciding whether it is working or not. Would you say she is high, average or lower sleep needs? A times can vary depending on that as well.
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Not high but definitely above average. She resists way too much. NWs, EWs - are these all characteristics of OT or 3-2 or just baby crazies?
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Unfortunately it could be any of the above! Sorry that is not helpful I know!
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No it is fine. I really am all over the place. Thanks though
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This is our EASY of the last 2 days
10/11
7.30 - WU + E
10.20 - 12 -- nap 1 (held through jolts at 40 - 40 & 30 mins)
12- E
3- 4.30 -- nap 2 (slept in crib for 30 mins -- couldn't resettle. Held in arms for rest of nap)
4.30 - E
5.30 - E (did not want) bath - feed( very distracted & disinterested - had to bounce/ dance)
6.15 - PD (mistake as she was so UT)
Nursed to sleep
7 - sleep (we do not nurse to sleep usually. She has been so OT lately that I was trying for an early BT and I just upset her so much that nothing else would calm her down)
9.30 - WU -- tried to resettle with pat/shush/ PU/PD -- not happening -- offered 1 oz - slept off
10.30 - DF (4&1/2 oz)
no night wakings
11/7
7 - WU + E
9.45 - 11.20 - nap 1 (held through jolts)
11.30 - E x2
2.20 - 2.50 - nap 2 (would not go back to sleep even when held)
3.30 - E (HUNGRY)
5.10 - 5.40 - CN
6 - feed, bath, feed
7 - sleep
10.30 - DF (3& 1/2 oz)
All of this is normal till...
1am - WU crying -- not hungry -- took half an hour to get her back down
1.30 am - sleep
1.45 - WU crying but resettled herself after a LONG time
3 am - WU crying- could not resettle -- ate 3 1/2 oz
6.30 - WU for the day crying
WDYT?
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Hey Hon, my quick thoughts here:
- is there any chance she is hungry? is she a big baby? how much of milk does she take? around six months there is a growth spurt and it usually coincides with solids introduction; i remember Frank drinking a LOT of milk around 6mo (more than usual) and still eating solids; I also know that you are a bit stressed so maybe your supply is going down - WDYT?
- if you think that pushing to two naps with 3h of A makes her very OT, sometimes and for some babies (usually LSN but tiring quickly but then also sleeping shortly) 3 naps in configuration short-long-short is better for the transition period -> they can sleep less during the day, but having 3 naps prevent from OT
- are you sure that you do not have a prop here and there? around 5-6mo they are usually so aware that something which wasn't a problem before, may become their natural sleep association
- I remember with DS that teething looked like that for us; generally some discomfort or WW usually last for around 10-12 days and then usually solved by itself... so maybe it will happen soon for you...?
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She was 6kgs at 4 mos, so not a big baby. At the waking around 3/4 am, she is definitely hungry. I was thinking that maybe she needed a NF for a while since she didn't eat much through the illness days. But waking an hour & half after bed or after DF is not hunger. Probably OT but I don't know how she is getting that way! Can't seem to break this cycle. Feeds have gotten quicker and she is quite distracted & turns her head away a lot. I pump after the morning feed and in the night before bed and I have been getting more than usual, meaning she is eating less. Katherine has been advising me also and I am following her advice of sticking to one feed per A time. I have been doing one at wake up and another half hour before nap. I might have inadvertently been encouraging snacking.
I don't think we have a prop. We have never rocked, no paci or swing or anything. If anything, my fall back was always nursing but she has been going down independently for so long now (for night sleep only). I have had to twice this month already though. After everything else was not working.
I really thought this was just because she was ill recently. I know regressions can happen as a result. But we did not break the routine even then and she slept better than she is now. I really hope this is developmental.
So basically we should just stick to the routine & hope this will blow over? I think your nap suggestion is spot on. DH and I were just discussing that. 2 x 1.5 hr naps + 30/45 min catnap seems to be more sleep than she needs. She was previously doing 1x 1.5 + 2x 45 and slept great. So shortening a nap may do the trick. Let me try these things tomorrow
Thanks for taking the time to help!
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We are doing a short-long-short routine here so ask if any questions....though we do have two NFs so not perfect!!
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Thanks Katherine but that wouldn't work for us. The first nap is the only one with which we have any success. Right now I am powering on with 2 naps of 1.5 hours each. The timings have matched up the past few days as she has been waking late -- 7.20 & twice at 8 because of silly early morning feeds. She can do 2.5 to 3 hours to BT but not much more.
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Things are just not getting better with these night wakings. They are so random. She will go to sleep just fine and independently but we just cannot relax as every day she wakes up crying between that time & dream feed. The timings vary so much. It used to be that we could put her to bed and she would sleep till morning (with DF). No matter how bad the days were, the nights were fine. Then came that horrible flu and now things just aren't normalizing.
Katherine, I know you said OT but I am staying in her room with her during naps and she is getting 2 naps of 1.5 hours every day with bedtime 2.30 - 2.45 hours later. A times are now 2.50 to 3 hours and since she is going down for naps without a fuss, I think that is fine. The only thing is, she is not transitioning on her own. Some days she will for the morning nap but never for the afternoon.For 10 days now, she is consistently getting proper naps (except for yesterday when she did a 10 minute pm nap).
She is in leap 5 of the wonder weeks right now, so could that be it?
Here is how it is nowadays
19/11 - 2 naps - 1.10 & 1.50 -- BT 7 -- WU 9 would not resettle without a feed - WU 1 am but resettled herself
20/11 - 2 naps x 1.30 -- BT 6.40 -- WU 9.45 but resettled herself
21/11 - 2 naps x 1.30 -- BT 6.50 -- WU crying 8.45 SS -- WU crying 10 SS
22/11 - 3 naps - 1.45 + 45 + CN -- BT 7 -- WU crying 7.25 needed a resettle
23/11 - 2 naps - 1.30 + 2.20 -- BT 6.50 -- made it through the night. YAY!
24/11 - 2 x 1.30 -- BT 6.50 -- WU 8 needed resettle
25/11 - 3 naps - 1.30 + 10 mins + CN - -BT 6.40 - WU 7.05 needed a resettle (clearly OT) WU at 2am & 6am but resettled herself
Today - 2 x 1.5 naps -- BT 6.45 -- WU 9 needed a resettle
I am quite sure something is going on with her teeth but nothing is cutting through yet and she doesn't show discomfort during the day or during naps.
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What time is WU for all those days hun? I agree she is having good naps but maybe something to learn from the fact the day she had longer naps (23/11) she STTN? Has she always needed help to resettle for longer naps or is that fairly new?
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DH and I just thought this through. Tell me what you think --
Although she is *able* to do 3 hours A time, 2 naps of 1.5 hours are not restorative enough and so she is still tired even after a nap? We have noticed that she gets quite fussy half way through the A time, at around the 2 hour mark. Marti's suggestion of short -long-short would be tough for us as the first nap is the easiest to get right. So you think it is just that? and that it will continue until she is able to handle 9 hours day A time with 3 hours of naps at which point things should normalise?
The first nap is the only one that she can do without a resettle and that is also not falling into place yet. Sometimes she makes it through without needing help, sometimes not. For all others, she has always needed a resettle.
19/11 - WU 7- 2 naps - 1.10 & 1.50 -- BT 7 -- WU 9 would not resettle without a feed - WU 1 am but resettled herself
20/11 - WU 7- 2 naps x 1.30 -- BT 6.40 -- WU 9.45 but resettled herself
21/11 - WU 7.152 naps x 1.30 -- BT 6.50 -- WU crying 8.45 SS -- WU crying 10 SS
22/11 - WU 6.45 3 naps - 1.45 + 45 + CN -- BT 7 -- WU crying 7.25 needed a resettle
23/11 - WU 72 naps - 1.30 + 2.20 -- BT 6.50 -- made it through the night. YAY!
24/11 - WU 6.30 gave bottle & she went back to sleep till 8 -- 2 x 1.30 -- BT 6.50 -- WU 8 needed resettle
25/11 - WU 7.15 3 naps - 1.30 + 10 mins + CN - -BT 6.40 - WU 7.05 needed a resettle (clearly OT) WU at 2am & 6am but resettled herself
Today - WU 6.50 2 x 1.5 naps -- BT 6.45 -- WU 9 needed a resettle
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Okay, I think we have cracked it. On days that she has 3.5 hours of sleep, she sleeps fine! So I need to do one 2 hour nap at least for a while! God, you guys must think I am a loon. I have pretty much been talking to myself here! :) Sorry for the crazies.
Any ideas on how I can get her to resettle herself?
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What are you doing to resettle? Does she wake fully with a proper 'I need you' cry? Any chance you're rushing in a bit too soon? Otherwise it may well be her A time is just a fraction too long and maybe 5-10 mins less would help?
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I am just saying that I agree with you Fleur. On the days she sleeps more than 3h, she seems to have less NW.
BTW - I wouldn't count SS NW as a proper one. We have/had many of them in some periods of DS life and no matter what kind of routine we had. The ones where you have to get up and help/feed - that's a proper NW in my opinion.
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Big thanks to both of you for letting me bounce these ideas around. Ugh, Katherine, as to resettling for naps -- We generally had to PU/PD - now I am using that acronym but basically what I mean is that end up comforting her on our shoulder and then putting back down when drowsy or when she has stopped crying. We do not follow Tracy's concept of holding for x number of minutes. Couldn't stand letting her cry for so long. But with the 3-2 happening and us needing 2 good naps as there usually isn't enough time for a CN, we have been sitting in the room. Sometimes she wakes up and self settles in the morning nap. Otherwise as soon as she whimpers or with the first wail, we put a hand on her and pat her shoulder lightly. With the afternoon nap, I tend to put a hand on her before time and she usually just stays asleep.
If you remember, around 4 months, she was resettling with just verbal reassurance and a hand briefly on her. I can't get why it doesn't work anymore. Even for night wakings, we end up having to pick up.
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I wonder if you've got a bit of a prop? As in, I wonder if you may have been intervening a little too much, when she didn't *really* need you? Can you try backing off a bit, let her tell you if she needs you? I realise this may mean some bad naps but really, you can't stay in her room forever every time she naps.....
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I agree. I initially started this just to get the 2 naps happening as we were getting so many night wakings. And I wasn't doing anything else anyway except waiting for her to wake up :S It started with me going in at around 35 minutes and just patting her back to sleep and then again 34 minutes later.
But then I found that for the afternoon nap, she would be up 10 minutes later if I didn't stick around.
It is also quite painful as I have to crouch down -- she wakes up completely if she sees me:S:S:S:S
Naps have just never fallen into place here. And I don't know how to react as she wakes up crying so so loudly and it keeps going at that level. I feel that by now I should be able to stroke her hair or something and comfort her but at that time, it is as if she doesn't even know us. I have heard her mantra cry during sling naps but even if she does that here, she inevitably resumes crying a short while later. With tears!
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The crying WUs here would have always been either OT, or just UT enough that LO was still tired but unable to transition. The other possibility is not knowing how to transition between sleep cycles but I think she does sometimes do it? Possibly still some residual OT hanging around from the 3-2 transition? I know her naps are a good length but if they are all broken/needing resettling perhaps they are not as restorative as fully settled ones?
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I think you are exactly right, Katherine. It isn't that she need more than 3 hours day sleep. It is that she needs it unbroken. Right now those times include resettling. For the past 2 days, I have put this theory to the test and I think we nailed it:) I now want to seriously work on lengthening naps. I know that she can transition and do a long morning nap. Afternoon has always been iffy - usually 40 minutes with no chance of a resettle. At least nowadays I can resettle it.
So my new theory is that she needs more A time. I noticed that for the morning nap, I was resettling her at 50 mins or 1 hour, which means UT. So today I did 3.10 A and she slept for 1.15 hrs at which point I patted her back to sleep and woke her up at the 2 hour mark! I will hold at this time for a few days but maybe she needs more for a proper 1.5 hour nap. I did 3 hours for the afternoon nap and as usual she was up in 35 minutes. For once she looked like she would resettle herself but the silly dog started barking and that was that.
I know I should take a step back and accept bad naps. It is just that I REALLY enjoy *my* time after she goes to bed at 7. All day I do what needs to be done, waiting to clock out at that magic hour. And that is why it was so unsettling when she started with these NWs. Right now I feel that okay she is going to sleep independently with no props whatsoever, I am working towards her doing a proper morning nap at least without help resettling and if I have to help with her afternoon one, so be it. At least she is finally letting me pat her back to sleep in the crib itself. Although I am guilty of letting her sleep on me when I can't resettle in the crib. The A times are so long now that there is just no chance of a catnap anymore and I constantly mess up EBT.
Today's EASY
WU - 7.10
A- 3.10
S - 10.20 - 12.30 (with resettle at 1.15 without crying but took a long time to go into deep sleep)
A- 3.08
S - 3.40 - 5 ( 30ish in crib - rest in arms)
BT - 7
Do you think there is any hope of her ever sleeping through for the afternoon nap? I am positive that with the right times, the morning one will fall into place.