BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: HollyNF122 on November 30, 2014, 21:16:46 pm
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Hello!
This is my first post so I apoligize for any errors!
My son started sleeping through the night at 7 weeks. He would go to sleep around 8:30 or 9pm and wake up at 6am. Sometimes I would even have to wake him up at 7am because he was still asleep. Around 11 weeks, he started waking up once or twice a night. We could usually give him a paci and he would fall back asleep. He is now 16 weeks and sleeping much worse. He wakes up at least 4-5 times a night. There have been a few nights when he wakes up every 30-45mins! Occasionally, I have tried feeding him during these times thinking that maybe it is a growth spurt and he will eat but still wakes up an hour or so later. Our schedule has not changed much. The only difference is that we stopped cluster feeding around 9 or 10 weeks, I think, because that is what the book said to do. We do a dream feed around 10:30 or 11pm. He sleeps the same amount during the day than he has been.
I think he is getting enough to eat. I went back to work when he was 11 weeks, he eats 30-35 oz. while with the nanny. I thought maybe he was waking up because he was hungry and maybe I'm not producing enough but he does not sleep any better after taking the 30-35oz. He did get an infected toe nail (I know!) when he was around 12 weeks and had to be on antibiotics for a week, but he started sleeping poorly 2 weeks prior. Also, the past 4-5 days he has had a cold but is on the mend. I read about when infants are around 12 weeks old they have a developmental growth spurt that can effect their sleep but this has been going on for 4 weeks!
I'm not sure what we are doing wrong! Please help!
Thank you!
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Hi there, welcome to BW :)
Would you be able to post an example of your day in EAS format? There might be something in the daytime routine which gives us a clue as to what might help. there are so many developmental changes around this age, and sleep needs change quite rapidly, a tweak to the general pattern of daytime napping might help.
Poor thing having the toe infection and then the cold - these kind of things can really impact on LOs sleep (and the mums too). ((Hugs))
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Hi Naomi!
This is roughly our daily schedule (give or take 30 mins).
6AM-Eat and up for the day when I work and he goes to the nanny. If I or Dad is home for the day we usually put him back to bed to get a couple more hours of sleep. Either way we get him up again at 9AM to eat again. We follow the every 3 hour schedule pretty strictly and only occasionally will go 3.5 hours between a feed. I breast feed when I am home and he bottle feeds when I work (3 days a week). I am a nurse so the days I work he bottle feeds all day. When I breast feed he is still eating from one side, but seems satisfied with that.
Activity- After about 20-30 mins of eating we will change his diaper and play. Play consists of tummy time, playing on the activity mat, "talking", sitting in bumbo and watching people or the dog, or sitting in bouncy chair.
Sleep- Usually 1.5-2 hours after a feeding I will lay him down for a nap. He is usually tired and goes to sleep as soon as I swaddle him. I swaddle both arms and rock him for a few mins before laying him down. I try to put him down sleepy but not totally asleep, but he usually falls asleep right away when I start rocking him. He will usually sleep anywhere from 30 mins to and hour. Then we start all over again.
Recap: We feed at 6am, 9am, 12pm, 3pm, 6pm, 8:30pm (bedtime routine), & 10:30 or 11 dream feed.
Our bedtime routine consists of a bath everyother day, lotion/massage, lavender oil, feeding, then swaddle and rock for a few mins. He never has trouble going to sleep. If it is nap time or bedtime he is usually asleep within minutes, but he just does not stay asleep. When he wakes up at night he cries, not just fussy. We will give him his paci and that helps most of the time. If it doesn't help then we will rock him for a few minutes and he is back asleep. Lately, though we are lucky to get him to sleep an hour at a time. He has been sleeping in his crib usually, but during this cold we have been letting him sleep ina swing to help with his congestion. He used to sleep through the night with no problem so I have no idea where we went wrong!
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Do you think his bedtime is too late?
Do you think he should still be swaddled?
Please advise!
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My husband thinks that he wakes up at night when the paci falls out and he can't replace it. Thoughts?!
Is there anyone that can help!! We are going on very little sleep for weeks and it's draining us!!
Please help!!
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Hi Holly,
Unfortunately, 4mo old is a notorious time of sleep issues. There is often a growth spurt, LOs go through a wonder week (like a developmental growth spurt), and often a sleep regression. This is also the time when props, like a paci and rocking to sleep, can start to become issues.
First off, typically around 4mo is when you want to start moving him to a 4hr EASY routine. He may not be able to make it a full 4hr between feeds just yet, esp as he's BF, but you can work toward doing a 3.5hr EASY and/or start doing some top up feeds if needed. It does sound like he's probably getting enough oz in, but he might take better feeds and a bit more if you spread them out a little. The average A time for a 4mo old is somewhere around 1h45m-2h. It sounds like you're sort of there already, but he's not taking full naps. Do you think you're ready to start working on getting him to fall asleep more independently or to resettle and continue sleeping after he wakes from a short nap?
I do think his BT is too late, and because of the late BT, the DF is quite close to the BT feed (Tracy suggested it be 3-4hr after BT feed to be a full one) and may not be enough to last him til morning anymore. I'd shoot for closer to a 12-13hr day max, so that he's doing a good 11-12hr overnight (with a DF).
He can definitely still be swaddled, many babies are swaddled until 6/7/8mo or until they start rolling over. I do wonder if the paci has become a prop at this point though and your husband is right about him waking for it. Again, this would go back to the question of if you're wanting to work on getting him to sleep more independently. The paci may need to go in that instance.
Hope that helps a bit. Let us know what you think.
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I agree absolutely with Katie, this is a tricky age for sleep and lots of change can occur in a short space of time.
Something that jumped out at me - am I correct in reading that his BT is around 8:30/9pm and if you are at home he goes back to sleep straight after the 6am feed, so it's treated like a night feed, but if you have to get up and work, then he is waking and starting his day routine at 6? If I have read it right, this is quite a large difference in daytime starting between working days and days you are both at home.
I understand the desire to have more sleep if you are able, but it might suit him better if you vary that starting time by only half an hour to an hour, so on a non working day he still gets up and starts the day after that first feed. Then you would aim for BT approximately 12 hours later. This may not help settle things straight away as you do still have the changes to the EASY at this age to work with, but the consistency should help him settle better.
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Thank you both for your help! I feel we have gotten so far off track and don't know how to get back. Our LO was such a textbook baby. Our nanny joked that she could set her watch by his routine! I agree with all of your ideas. Last night after we put our LO to sleep he woke up a half hour later, then again. Finally, 2 hours after his last feed we thought we would try giving him a bottle. He took 7.5 oz in 5 mins! I know when I nurse him he falls asleep sometimes but I try to wake him. Then after 20 mins or so he acts like he doesn't want anymore. I will burp him and try again but he doesn't act interested.
Her is our game plan. Let me know what you think!
1. spread his routine to 3.5 hrs and eventually 4 hrs over the next week or so
2. Push his bedtime back. I thought too that maybe his bedtime was too late but I worried about him getting enough to eat.
3. Get up after his first feed. I definitely think that it confuses him when we stay awake after some of his first feeds and go back to sleep after some. That was for my own selfish reasons (more sleep), but I can see in the long run how that can cause a problem.
4. Get rid of paci and other props! Not sure how to go about this one! Believe it or not he used to go to sleep on his own before we introduced the paci. We would really like to get back to there.
Thank you so much for your suggestions!
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Also, what are top up feeds?
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Hiya, a top-up feed is used most often by BFing mums to give a little extra milk before nap time to help an LO get through a longer A time that they may need to get longer naps, but not yet be ready to stretch to four-hourly feeds. I didn't use them myself as by this age DD was bottle fed and could easily manage four hours. If you want to know more about how to do it it might be best to post the question on the Bf forum as lots of mums there will have used it - while taking care not to develop a snacking habit for their LO, which is counterproductive in the long term.
Your plan looks good - when stretching A times I would suggest adding 10/15 mins at a time and holding for a few days (3-5) before increasing again, you can do this one nap at a time or across the whole day. This gives your LO one to adjust to the change and hopefully means you'll find the sweet-A time that works for him.
Those half hourly wake ups after BT so sound like OT built up during the day to me, so I think you're doing the right thing by extending A times to get out of the UT/OT spiral.
Re the paci, you might find that when he's on a better-suited routine for him the WUs go away and it may be the paci isn't a prop at all. If you need to get rid of it, we can help :)
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Do you think I should battle the paci issue once we have his sleeping better under control? Also, at what rate should when move up his bedtime? I don't want to throw too much at him at once.
Thanks!
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Hiya, a top-up feed is used most often by BFing mums to give a little extra milk before nap time to help an LO get through a longer A time that they may need to get longer naps, but not yet be ready to stretch to four-hourly feeds. I didn't use them myself as by this age DD was bottle fed and could easily manage four hours. If you want to know more about how to do it it might be best to post the question on the Bf forum as lots of mums there will have used it - while taking care not to develop a snacking habit for their LO, which is counterproductive in the long term.
There's really two ways of doing them. One is to offer another feed 45min-1hr after the initial feed (where solids will eventually be introduced). The other is to offer a small feed 20-30min before nap time. You likely wouldn't need to do either of these until you get to 2hr+ A time. But, I think you mentioned he usually only feeds from one side. If you start feeding him from both, which may naturally happen as you stretch the feeds out, he may not need a top up.
Last night after we put our LO to sleep he woke up a half hour later, then again. Finally, 2 hours after his last feed we thought we would try giving him a bottle. He took 7.5 oz in 5 mins! I know when I nurse him he falls asleep sometimes but I try to wake him. Then after 20 mins or so he acts like he doesn't want anymore. I will burp him and try again but he doesn't act interested.
That sounds like a GS! Its really normal for a NF to come back for a bit around 4mo. I've never fed much from a bottle, so I don't really know, but was just wondering from what you're describing here if there could be a chance he prefers the faster flow of a bottle and therefore takes a fuller feed from that rather than when you offer the breast. :-\
Do you think I should battle the paci issue once we have his sleeping better under control?
It's up to you... do you ultimately want to get rid of it or keep it? If you want to get rid of it then I'd do it now, if not then I'd work on getting the routine sorted and see if the NWs improve and then take it from there.
Also, at what rate should when move up his bedtime? I don't want to throw too much at him at once.
Maybe 20-30min every few nights? You can still offer a BT feed beforehand, which will act like more of a cluster feed until you get it to where you want it.
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Ok. YesterDAY went so well. We did a 3.5 hour routine. My LO had 1:45 A-Times followed by a 1.5 hour naps. We did an earlier bedtime at 7:30. Our LO seemed a little confused at first but fell asleep fairly quickly. He still woke up multiple times during the night. He was up at 10 and 10:30, so we went ahead and did a dream feed but then he was up again 2 hrs later. We fed him then and another 2 hours later he was up again and up every half hour or so until we fed him. We haven't gotten rid of the paci yet because we have mixed feelings. We don't want it to be a prop and want to get rid of it but in the other hand we thought that if we got his sleep back on track then we can wean him off the paci.
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Ugh, sorry for the rough night. I think you need to give the new routine a few days to a week or so before you expect any drastic changes in NWs. It sounds like he's still hungry in the night, waking so often like that... must still be a GS. I wouldn't worry too much about the paci for now. I think the fact that he can do an uninterrupted nap means that it's not necessarily a prop. (((Hugs)))
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I was thinking it would take a few days too. No worries. When you have barely slept for a week, what's a few more days right? Haha. Thank you for the encouragement! It helps to get through this tough time. I will keep you updated on how the next few days go!
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Fingers crossed for you! :)
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Hello everyone!
I thought that I should update you all and get some more feedback. Our LO has adjusted to a 3.5 hour routine well. His activity times are right around 1:45 hrs and naps our usually 1-1.5hrs. We have moved his bedtime up to roughly 7:30pm the past few nights and that is going ok. Night wakings are less frequent. He has started to wake up at 10:30, wanting his DF. He then usually wakes up around 2am and again at 5 or 6 am, and we just keep him up for the day at that time. I'm afraid he is not getting enough during the day and that is why he is still waking at night. Even though we have transitioned to the 3.5 hr EASY routine, he is not eating more at each feed to compensate.
One thing that is new for us is that he doesn't fall back asleep very easily. He used to fall back asleep with a little rocking or his paci during the night after just a few mins. Now when he falls asleep and we try to put him in his crib he wakes up and starts screaming! Not sure what to do or what is causing that?!
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Are you able to post a few days of your EASY routine? If you're getting some 1hr naps and some hard to settle NWs, he may be in need of a little more A time.
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I don't have any of the past days EASY routine written down. I have been working the past few days so I don't even get to see him awake. I leave early and get home late. I have written down our routine for the nanny to follow. I can't say how close she stays on it but I know he gets fed at the feeding times listed (every 3 hrs) and she says that he plays and naps well. I know that he has no trouble with the 1:45 A time. What do you think could be causing this?
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It's difficult to say really without the daytime easy. Could you ask your nanny to write down rough times for you?
Also, do you know is the nanny following set times that you give her or is she following his sleepy signs as you would? Would she shorten an A time after a short nap for example?
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Here was my LO's schedule from the nanny today.
Eat at 0600; nap from 9:00-9:30 (woke him up to eat)
Eat at 9:30; nap from 11:00-11:35 and again from 12:30-1:00 (woke him up to eat)
Eat at 1:00; nap from 2:00-2:50
Eat at 4:30; cat nap from 5:15-5:50
The nanny follows the feeding times I give her but I think she goes by his cues with naps.
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It looks to me like the daytime stuff is probably affecting the nighttime for you. If he is happily sleeping long naps when he's with you it looks like the different A times and being woken from naps to feed is unsettling him.
Is he gaining weight well? If so, I probably wouldn't wake him to eat, unless he has slept for more than two hours.
That first A time looks long - 3 hours, and then after that being woken to feed would leave him quite OT I imagine so despite the next A time being shorter it may still be a bit too long following so little sleep earlier. That time between 6am and 9in the morning, are you traveling with your LO is there a possibility he could be put down to sleep earlier?
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I agree with Naomi. ^^^
For his age and A time, I'd aim for something close to this...
W/E 6am
A (~1h45m-2h)
S 8-9:30am
E 9:30am
A (~1h45m-2h)
S 11:30-1pm
E 1pm
A (~1h45m-2h)
S 3-4:30pm
E 4:30pm
A (~1h45m-2h)
E 6pm
S/BT 6:30pm
What do you think... is something like that doable?
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Hello all!
Well our sleeping problems have not improved. We have made our LOs bedtime earlier, lengthened his activity time and got him to take better naps. Our bedtime routine hasn't changed other than starting it sooner. Not sure what else to try! We has our 4-month check up today and our pediatrician thinks it is night terrors! I have not heard of night terrors this young. Has anyone else had any experience with this?
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No, I've not heard of that either... seems like a bit of a bogus answer if I'm totally honest. :-\ I'll do some asking around, though.
Can you give us a few days of EASY to look at and tell us exactly what's happening in the MOTN? Maybe we can find some clues to help you figure it out.
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Sorry it has taken me forever to respond! The holidays have been so busy for us. I haven't been able to write down our LO's routine every day but I can honestly say it doesn't matter what his days look like, he will still wake up at night. We have had days that are perfect, A-Time and nap wise, and other days that are not so perfect and he still does the same thing at night. It also doesn't matter if he sleeps in his crib or a swing.
So, at night he will wake up randomly and start fussing and it turns to crying pretty quickly. LO usually wakes up every 1-2 hours, sometimes as often as every 30-45 mins. Bedtime is at 7:30 and he usually gets up for the day between 6-7 am. LO also usually eats around 1-2 AM. When he wakes up at night it doesn't take much for him to go back to sleep. We just give him his paci and he is back asleep within minutes. When he goes to bed and when he takes naps during the day we put him to bed awake and he doesn't have a problem falling asleep on his own.
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Do you think the paci has become a prop and he is waking in the night for it?
It would be helpful for us to look at some routines as well. The NWs may be random as you say, but there may be a clue we could spot in your EASYs to help.
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I'm afraid you may be right about the paci being a prop. But it's the only thing that satisfies our LO (other than nursing). He goes back to sleep immediately when we replace it in the middle of the night. We were trying to get his sleeping back on track before we got rid of it but I don't know if that will ever happen. Here is our schedule from yesterday!
12/27/14
0200- nurse 12 mins
0500- nurse 8 mins
Awake at 0700- nurse 10 mins
A-Time- 0710-0930
Nap at 0930
Awake at 0920
Nurse at 1030 (19 mins)
Nap at 12:10
Awake at 1:45
Nurse at 1:50 (12 mins)
Asleep at 3:10
Awake at 4:00
Eat 4:40 (19 mins)
Story time at 6:30
Bath at 6:45
Nurse at 7:05 (30 mins)
Put in crib at 7:40 (awake without paci)
7:50- crying (gave paci)
8:05- asleep
9:00- crying (replaced paci)
10:40 dream feed
12:41- crying (replaced paci)
01:42- crying (replaced paci)
1:54- nurse (27 mins)
04:55- crying (replaced paci)
06:11- awake for the day and nursed
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Can you remind me how old he is now?
One problem I see for sure is that his last A time is much too long. He was awake for 4hr from his last nap til BT, so was probably quite OT. That would explain the several, crying NWs during the first half of the night and the 10hr night. Ideally, you'd probably shoot for a 6:30/7pm BT on a day like that... there would still likely be a little OT, but with a 12hr day hopefully better.
Unfortunately, if you have a prop, sleep probably won't get better until you get rid of it... it doesn't often work the other way around. But, I think with a little more work on routine, we might be able to reduce the NWs and then you can decide if you want to ditch the paci or be patient until he can replug on his own, which is usually possible around 6/7/8mo.
Can you keep good track of a few days of EASY for us to look at and we'll see if we can spot a pattern we may be able to tweak?
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He is 4.5 months now. I will keep track of the next couple of days of our EASY schedule, no problem! We are going to try moving his bedtime up to 6:30/7 like you suggested. We would like to tackle one problem at a time, preferably the NW first! Haha. Another problem we are having is our LO gets way off schedule when he is at daycare. For example, he only took two naps today instead of the usual three. Not sure what we can do about this... Any suggestions?
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Another problem we are having is our LO gets way off schedule when he is at daycare. For example, he only took two naps today instead of the usual three. Not sure what we can do about this... Any suggestions?
I don't know if you really can do anything, TBH. I'm sure they try their best, but some things are likely out of your (and their) control. I've never had experience with daycare, so can't say for sure, but I think it can be dicey until a LO is on a solid two and then one nap. :-\
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Hello!
Here are a few days of EASY schedules for our little one. Keep in mind that we were still celebrating holidays so our routine had to be altered here and there.
12/29/14 (Daycare)
06:15- Bottle and awake for the day
07:00- Arrive at daycare
08:00-09:30- Nap
09:30- Bottle
09:45- 12:00- A-Time
12:00- Attempted a nap but only slept for 5 mins
1:00- Bottle
1:15- 2:00- A-Time
2:00-3:40- Nap
4:30- Bottle
4:45-5:30- Cat nap
6:40- Bath, lotion
7:00- Bottle
7:15- Bedtime
10:30- Dream feed
12/30/14
03:00- Awake/fussy; nursed
07:00- Nurse and awake for the day
07:20-09:00- A-Time
09:00-10:20- Nap
10:30- Nurse
10:45-12:15- A-Time
12:15-1:50- Nap
1:52- Nurse
2:10-3:45- A-Time
3:45- Attempted to nap but would not fall asleep (we were at family Christmas and I think he may have been too distracted by everything)
4:50- Nurse
5:10-6:40- A-Time
6:40 Lotion/massage and put in jammies (no bath tonight because we were away from home)
6:48- Nurse (Fussy and only nursed for 10 mins, I think he was so tired form not taking a third nap)
7:15- Alseep
9:45- Awake and rocked
10:00- Bottle/Dream feed
12:30- Awake; gave paci
12:56- Awake; gave paci
12/31/14 (This is our typical schedule during the day)
01:55- Awake and nursed
03:09- Awake; gave paci; moved into our bed
06:09- Nursed and awake for the day
06:25-07:45- A-Time
07:45-09:20- Nap
09:25- Nurse
09:40-11:10- A-Time
11:10-12:25- Nap
1:00- Nurse
1:18-2:50- A-Time
2:50-4:30- Nap
4:36- Nurse
6:35- Bath, lotion, jammies
6:55- Nurse
7:20- Asleep in bed
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Here is how our night went last night after our "typical" day.
9pm- Awake and given paci, back to sleep within a minute
10pm- Awake and quiet in bed, paci given but LO spit it out
10:15- Starting to get fussy so we did his DF, Fussy after dream feed (unusualfor him)
11:00- Asleep
01:45- Awake/fussy, nursed & back to sleep
03:30- fussy and squirmy, sleeping on and off
04:30- Bottle and big BM
Fussy/squirmy, sleeping on & off until 07:00 and fed bottle
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Sorry for my delayed reply, we've had a busier week than last week!
I'm back to thinking that the paci may not be an issue, because he did have a night in there with only the DF and one other NF. What I notice is that the nights he goes to bed OT (after too long of an A time), he has a really unsettled night (well, the last one you posted may have been unsettled because of the BM as well). On, the 29th, even though he missed a nap in daycare, he had a later CN and less than 2hr A til bed and slept a good night. Otherwise, on the other two days, his A time before bed was 5+ and almost 3hr, likely much over his capability (although I know the one day was because of a missed nap).
So, I think the best plan is to try to get 3 full naps, or 2 full and 2 CN if that's how it works from daycare... a 12-13hr day, depending on how the naps fall... no more than 2-2.5hr A time to bed after a full nap, closer to 1h45-2h after a CN. I know it's hard with not being able to control things at daycare, but try that for a week or so and see if the nights don't get a little better.