BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: AMJ on January 08, 2015, 19:08:08 pm
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Hi everyone!
Just a quick question. How long did your LOs nap for at around 21 months old? how long did they sleep at night?
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I had to start capping lily's nap to 1hr at that age on order to preserve nights. She was doing about 11hrs at night I think, maybe 11 and a half hours. She is slightly low sleep needs.
Jack is definitely low sleep needs and doesn't nap 2 days a week at nursery, and then naps 45 minutes - 1hr 20 on the other days (more on the days after not napping and reducing nap length as the week goes on). Over Christmas he wasn't at nursery and napped every day, but only 35 - 50 minutes. He averages 11 hrs at night.
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oh wow those are some short naps. For about a month DD was having 10.5/11hrs nights with a 1hr45m nap. But after the holidays everything is upside down and we can't get back to normal. Maybe now even 1hr45m is too long. Her nights became 9.5 hrs long so I've let her sleep in few times during the nap for about 2hrs or even longer to catch her up and then started to wake at 1hr45m but only had about 1 good night.
thanks for sharing
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No problem. If it helps, lily went from 1.5 - 2hr naps to needing them capped almost overnight. She had a big developmental / language leap at 20 months and it happened after that.
Have you tried moving the nap later but not letting her sleep any later in the day? So instead of letting her sleep 12.30 - 2.30, for example, try 1 - 2.30 instead?
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AMJ we've had to cap the nap a fair bit recently. We're doing on average 1hr 15 a day. Nights this wk have been closer to 11hrs :)
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LovelyLilyandJack, DD also just had a big language leap. She is repeating everything we are saying and my husband and I are just pleasantly surprised how suddenly it happened.
I've tried moving her nap later few months back but still let her sleep the usual amount. I wonder if that would help
Lauren, oh wow your DD is also having a way shorter nap than my DD. Hm now I'm thinking that 1hr45m is too long.
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Is she generally average sleep needs? How much sleep does she get in a 24 hour period?
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She is on the lower side. Now that her nights are 9.5hrs long she gets about 11.5/12hrs in 24hr period.
P.S. Last time this happened I cut her nap to 1hr45m and it seemed to help but I did it after she had at least 10hr night. Not sure if cutting her nap to 1hr30m now while the night is 9.5hrs long would work or it will backfire.
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I would, personally. Especially if she's on the lower side of sleep needs. You could give it a couple of weeks to see if it's developmental or anything, but if it's routine related her nights are unlikely to lengthen by themselves, so at some point you'll have to take the plunge.
The other thing it could be is teeth. Anything going on there? Are the short nights happening cos she's struggling to settle at BT or cos she's EWing?
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Like LL&J said the nap has dropped pretty suddenly. First to 1.5hrs which helped a little but days were still too long so now we've been trying 1.15 for a few days.
We've had a big language leap here too and she's been much more settled since then (plus 3 of the 4 canines are now through)
Does she ever do more than 9.5hrs now? You could wait until a day when she's had a longer night. I'm thinking though that you're probably not going to get that until you cut the nap. Viscious circle isn't it! IIWM I'd try the 1.5hr nap for a few days.
What do you think will work for her?
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She is only missing her 2nd molars but I don't see any signs of them yet.
She did start to take longer to settle at bedtime. Her usual is about 30m to settle but now it's tacking her 40m to 1hr. So her BT is usually at 8pm. I used to lay her in the crib at 7:30 and now it's 7:20 and she is sleep at around 8-8:15pm. And then she is waking early too so it's kinda both.
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Lauren yes few days ago she had 1hr45m nap and then 10hrs night and I was thinking that finally we are getting back to normal but since then it didn't happen again and I've been waiting for that 10hr night to start capping the nap again but like you said it's just not happening. I think you are right and I just need to do it.
I might do 1hr45m just today so it's not a big jump for her right away and then tomorrow 1.5hrs. Gosh I really enjoyed her long naps and wasn't really ready for them to get shorter so soon. :)
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I was very sad about lilys nap shortening too... With Jack I can't wait for him to drop his nap cos now it's a pain having to be in every day, having had the flexibility of no naps with lily .
Sounds like a good plan to gradually reduce. Then once you're on a 1.5hr nap I'd hold it at that for at least 4 days and then see where you are.
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Just popping by with hugs and encouragement, we hit occasional nnds by 21/22 months, nap was never more than 1h-1h15 three days a week at nursery (if she napped at all) and I was needing to cap to 1h30-45 at home. So definitely less than 1h30 on average x
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LovelyLilyandJack, oh I can see how it will be difficult trying to keep the older child at home, busy and quiet while the younger one naps. DH and I often talk about a possibility of a second child but I have no clue how to manage both at the same time and still be able to give my 100% to both! Thank you!
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Hi Katherine.
Thanks for encouragement! Fingers crossed that her nights will lengthen. She is just so tired lately and fussy/grumpy because of that.
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Oh DD was so tired last night after 1hr45m nap then had a NW from 4:10am to 4:50am and then woke up screaming at 6:00 am. I think she is getting extremely OT and I'm afraid it will be getting worse. She doesn't handle OT well and we always had problems with EWUs.
Sorry I'm just ranting
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(((Hugs))). Do you think it's a case of needing to cut the nap to get the better night? And get out of the cycle that way?
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Previously cutting the nap short only worked if that night was at least 10hrs long otherwise, just like yesterday, she is getting more and more OT. And I've been waiting for a 10hr night for a while now. DD is sporting her dark circles again :(
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What does her day look like at the moment? I'm wondering if you could use EBT to get her back on track?
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We are on set nap/BT and it's been the best thing we've ever done thanks to all the ladies on babywhisperer forum!
Nap at 12:30(laid in the crib)
BT 8:00 pm. Laid in the crib at 7:20pm.
When I need to give an early nap or BT I only allow 10m early because then she stays up even longer for some reason but 10m early worked the best. I tried giving BT 30m early but it made her stay up for more then 1hr.
So now if EBT is needed I lay her in the crib at 7:10 pm. That's what I did yesterday but it didn't help the hight.
I could try 7:00 pm today, what do you think?
Oh my, I feel so bad waking her today at 1.5hrs. Poor thing is strugling.
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Hugs, it's hard to see them struggle :(. Have you considered doing an uncapped or longer nap as a one-off if she doesn't respond to EBT? Otherwise I know it's tough but if the 1.5h nap is causing a short night, and is the root of the OT, you may have to cut the nap first and push to more OT to get her to crash and do a long night. Maybe try the catch up first though x
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Oh dear :( Hugs for the nw and grumpy LO.
Just wrote a reply and saw that jessmum has posted in the meantime so I'll dovetail my reply with hers.
I agree that you might need to cap further to get past this point. Jack often hits an awkward stage where he's OT but still napping too long to get a decent night, so things get worse cos he's getting less sleep but is never up for long enough to build up enough tiredness to crash. We've fixed it both ways - by getting over the OT by reducing A times and then pushing them quite quickly after that to find the right routine, or by pushing jack further and letting him crash. If your LO is susceptible to OT though then yes, you might want to catch her up rather than push her further.
The other thing is that some LOs just don't suit nap capping and for those I think you just have to move BT later and accept the short nights. I know some BWs have found that instead of capping the nap further and further it works better for their LO to have a big nap and, when they start dropping the nap, do EBT on nnds and a later BT the rest of the time. Just something else to consider if you're finding nap capping hard on you both.
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Thanks to both of you ladies for a great support! I really appreciate it.
I was considering letting her have as long of a nap as she needs and then hoping that would catch her up but yesterday I decided to do the 1.5ht nap first and then EBT and it worked a bit. I mean she was just very sleepy right after the nap and in the evening but not hyper at all like in the past week from the OT. So I laid her in the crib at 7:00 pm and she fell asleep at 7:40pm to my surprise, which is the earliest in a while. She was a bit wrestles at night for about an hour but didn't actually wake up. And then she was up at 5:50am. So a 10hr night is a bit better then a 9.5hr!
I'll try another 1.5hr nap today and then a 7pmEBT again and hopefully it will change things around. If this won't work I will give her as long of a nap she needs the following day and then maybe just let her have her long naps and a later BT, like you suggested!
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Good news, hope it works out well. Keep us posted x
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Will do :).
If 1.5hr nap works would you move it later in a day? Right now I put her in the crib at 12:30pm.
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Wow I just have to share this with you ladies.
So yesterday I woke her after 1.5hrs of napping. She was quiet tired in the evening. I also explained the gro clock to her and she was very excited about it. I had her in the crib at 7pm and she was asleep at 7:25pm( the earliest and the fastest she fell asleep in a while). I think that previously she was UT at BT but OT from long naps/short nights).
She stirred at 5:30am but resettled. I set the gro clock to 6:30am wich meant for 11hr night. She woke up when the sun came up, said "wow, sun" turned around, covered her face with her bunny because I think the light from the sun was too bright for her and slept till..... 7:15am!!! Wow this has NEVER happened before. She never had a 12hr night!!! But I think that was a catch up night. I wish there was an option to turn down the brightness of the mr. sun.
So now I'm not sure she will be ready for a nap at her usual 12:30pm. I'm not sure what time to offer it. Previously if I gave her a nap earlier or later then 12:30, because we needed to travel somewhere, she refused the nap completely. What would you do?
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Great night! I would offer at usual time and be prepared for her to mess around a little while before sleeping. If she takes a while to doze off, give her a slightly shorter nap say 1h-1h15 depending on how late she falls asleep.
I thought gro clocks had a brightness setting ??? Or is that just for the night light? At any rate I don't think many LOs are actually woken by the sun coming up once they are used to it so maybe it was just a coincidence today x
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Thanks, just got her in the crib at the usuall time.
Yes I set the brightness to zero so there is no blue light at night. The stars are not showing but I guess the brightness of the sun stays the same.
P.S. This kid just keeps surprising me lately. She fell asleep at 12:40.
Would you move her nap later in a day to keep BT at around 8pm? Thanks
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I wouldn't mess with her nap time unless she is having trouble falling asleep for it or EWs. If either of those then probably push 15-30 mins later and keep at 1.5h. One change at a time though x
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Makes sense. Thanks a lot
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Hi there.
So the things weren't going too good since that amazing 12hr night. Two days in a row DD is having a 10hr nights. Maybe she is up even earlier only she is laying vary quiet and I'm sleeping myself and can't hear her. I kept waking her at 1.5hrs during the nap and she seems very tired and cranky, clingy to me, not a happy camper when I wake her. Yesterday she was extremely hyper before dinner so we thought she is OT for sure but she calmed down after dinner so maybe she was just hungry. It is also hard for us to tell if she is OT or UT before bed but I've been puting her in the crib at 7/7:10pm instead of 7:20/7:30, and she's been taking 30m to fall asleep which is better then 40/50m.
When she wakes up in the morning she is just waiting patiently for me to come get her. We only had few days when she called for me and that was a while ago. I went in to her to tell her that the sun is not up and it's time to sleep but she never returned to sleep. Also she usually has a bowel movement when she wakes up so unless her routine was perfect for her on the previous day, and she is able to sleep longer, she will have a bowel movement and will not resettle. To change I need some kind of a light source and that for sure will signal a wake up time to her.
I'm not sure if her nap is too short or too long for her still, and I'm afraid to cut it even shorter because of how she is acting after the nap. I feel like OT is accumulating again. What do you ladies think? Thanks a lot.
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DD was always horrid to wake from her nap once we started to hit the nap capping/dropping stage. But if I didn't do it it wrecked the nights. My feeling would be try 15 mins shorter, maybe push start time 15 mins and wake at usual time so A to bed is the same to avoid too much OT there. You can always go the other way if things get worse x
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Thank you Katherine, I will give that a try.
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So it went from bad to worse
we"ve been doing 1hr15m long nap for a few days, but then I wasn't home and DH didn't wake DD from her nap and she ended up sleeping for 3hrs!!! So I gave her a late BT that night 8pm crib and asleep at 8:30pm. To my surprise she slept for 10hr which is not bad considering she had such a long nap. Then we were back to 1hr15m nap but after few days I could see that she started to get OT so I decided to let her have another long nap and a late BT in hope to get her caught up. But this time it backfired and she only had a 9hr night.
So yesterday she had 2.5hr nap
8pm crib and asleep at 8:40pm.
This am she woke up at 5:45am. Before her nap she was just one big mess.
nap 1pm
any suggestions for today's nap and BT?
TIA
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P.S. I gave her an 1.5hr nap(cause she had a 9hrs night) and then really early BT at 6:50 in the crib, asleep at 7:20/25pm. To be honest that number was just random, She was acting OT hyper for the whole day and there was no way for me to tell what was the right time to put her to bed. Thanks God she had almost 11hrs of sleep and woke up at 6:10am.
Now I'm stressing out about how to keep up 11hrs night. At this age do you still look at how long their day was, and what was the morning A and evening A? Because of EWUs we always end up with a long 6-7hr morning A and then 5-5.5hr evening A but the length of her day varies.
Also I moved her nap from 12:40ish to 1pm.
So if she WU at 6:10am today
Nap at 1:00 pm
WU 2:15/2:30 (here I'm still not sure what is a good nap length for her. We tried 1hr15m and 1hr30m only a few times randomly and so far both gave us a 10hr night, but maybe her BT wasn't at an appropriate time and maybe she was UT or OT)
What BT would you offer?
thanks a lot!!
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We do set naps so don't pay too much attention to day length or A times now, but I do find that jack does better on a routine which assumes 11hrs overnight sleep (which is a good night for him), so his day is kind of built around that. So he wakes between 6 & 6.30 am usually and naps 1-2ish most days and we do BT at 7 because a 13ish hour day fits for him.
I'd still be tempted to stick with a capped nap for a week or so (1.5hrs seemed to work for you recently?), otherwise you don't know if it'll result in her crashing and adding to her nights, since she's had a catch up nap when she seems to be getting tired. But you obviously know her best and if you're not comfortable with capping or you think it's making things worse you can always keep a long nap and do a later BT and accept the shorter night. Personally I'd give capping a week first to see if you can get her over that tiredness hump, but you've got to do what feels right for you both x
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We were doing set nap/bedtime previously and when her nights got really short we went back to playing around with her BT.
1.5hr nap gave us a 10hr night only. Yesterday I gave her 1hr15m nap put her in the crib at 7pm and she was asleep at 7:30pm. Today WU is at 5:50am so 10hr20m night. So I guess I'll stick with this for a week like you said and go from there.
I wouldn't mind letting DD sleep as long as she wants during her nap and I would be ok with short nights but she seems to struggle with that routine. she doesn't seem properly rested that way.
Thank you LL&J
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Ok, yeah, I'd try the 1hr 15 naps for a week then, and resist the temptation to let her have a catch up nap til after that. If she does get OT it's fixable later :) If she doesn't do well on a short night and long nap then you probably need to see capping through to it's conclusion - bearing in mind that it might be a 1hr nap she needs to lengthen her nights.
Apologies if I've already asked this (I'm on my phone and can't look back though the thread easily), but how much sleep in a 24 hour period would you say she generally gets? Did you say she's generally lower sleep needs than average?
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TBH we only tried 1hr 30m for a few days and maybe I didn't give it long enought and now I'm thinking if I should go back to that first before I do 1hr15m? Or just stick with 1hr15m , gosh I'm doubting everything.
No worries about asking again, yes she is a lower sleep needs kid. Before the winter holidays she was having about 12.5hrs in a 24hr period and I considered it pretty good for her.
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If she's lower sleep needs I'd have thought you could stick with 1hr 15 and be ok. That's still a pretty good nap for a slightly lsn LO. I think I've already mentioned that lily could only have 1hr max at this age without it affecting nights, and she did a similar amount of sleep in 24 hrs and was also slightly lsn. If it doesn't work you can always catch up any OT and try something else :)
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I'll give it a try though it's not going to be fun. She is really OT by now and last night took 45m to fall asleep and only 9.5hr night and up at 5:15am :0. I don't know how she is going to last till 1pm nap. She is really strugling before the nap with 7hrs of A and today she will have 7hrs45m
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You could always bring it a bit earlier if you think that will help? Maybe make it 12.45 or a touch earlier?
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Yes got her into the crib a bit earlier and she was so ready for it, almost fell asleep in the stroller.
Thanks you
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Hello ladies. Hope you are doing well. Here is what been happening with DDs sleep since last time we spoke. 2 weeks ago we started to cut her nap to 1hr15m but I couldn't pull through more then few days and went back to giving a long nap/short night a chance. Few days after that I realized it is still not working. To be honest DDs behaviour is kind of similar when she has short nights/ long nap to when she is very OT from cutting her nap short and trying to increase the nights. She is screaming, kicking, hitting etc and she is just hyper/ crazy before the nap and before BT.
Anyways a week ago I decided to give the 1hr15m nap another chance. Since then her nights are still short, 10hrs. One night she woke up at 5am but was able to resettle(which took her about 30-40m of tossing and turning) and then she slept till 6:30am( BT was at 7:30pm).
Last night she had a NWU at 3am and fell back asleep at 3:45am. Then up at 6:40 crying (it looked like she tried to resettle). So the amount of actual sleep is still the same about 10hrs.
Looking at the past week I don't know if 1hr15m nap is working well. Maybe I need to give it another week? Her night got a bit better increasing from 9.5hrs to 10hrs but her behaviour is not a happy one. My heart breaks seeing her like this. What are your though on this? Do you think she needs 1hr nap instead but I'm just scared to cut it even shorter since she is so very OT by now already. DH calls her "possessed" as a joke because this is how she is acting from OT.
Few notes:
- now she takes longer to fall asleep at nap time. Used to be few mins to 10m and now 15m
- at BT she takes 40/45m to fall asleep.
- on two days when she woke up later, at 6:30/40am ( when she had a NWU) I kept her nap at the same time(12:30ish in the crib) but she took a long time to fall asleep. I think she was asleep at around 1:15pm. So I'm not sure if her nap is too early and could be causing EWUs too but she seems very tired at that time.
Thank you!
Also in 2 weeks we are going on a vacation for 7days. The flight is at 6am and is 3hrs long but we need to drive over 1hr to get to the airport. So there is going to be not much sleep at night. Then there is going to be 1hr time difference at our destination so I'm just gonna keep her at her regular times. I really wanted to get her on a good schedule before we go so it is easier to get her back to normal when we are there and when we come back home but now is seems that this vacation is just not at a good time.
Thanks again.
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(((Hugs))). We are going through something very similar right now. It's rubbish isn't it? What I'm thinking with Jack is that there's a point where you're capping the nap, but it's not enough to affect nights, so overall they're not getting enough refreshing sleep and OT builds. It's the classic UT/OT loop in fact. We've been round it many many times. ::)
If it helps, the next thing I'm trying with Jack is another 15 minutes off his nap, but probably starting it at the same time as normal so I'm increasing his A before bed. He's EWing, so his A before his nap is already higher. We're trying a 45 minute nap today.... I'll let you know how it goes... So I think that since you've tried long naps, and capping a bit and it's sort of helped but not really overall that it's worth trying a 1hr nap next. That's what my daughter needed at this age. Five minutes over and it'd affect her nights. Although it sounds scary, you've got to just keep trying different things, give them a week or so and then try something else... If a 1hr nap makes things worse, at least you'll know where you are, you can fix it and try something different after that. You'll probably have an idea after 3 or 4 days whether things are improving or not Tbh. With Jack it's usually day / night 4 that changes kick in.
Anyway, I'm happy to trail blaze on this one and let you know how we're getting on? Jack is probably lower sleep needs than your LO, but I can tell you whether capping more is helping us. He'll have 2 nnds at nursery on Monday and Tuesday too, so it'll be interesting to see how they go too after an EW Monday morning (I'm assuming).
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Well, we've blown it on day one cos we were at a friends for tea and things ran late, so as well as having had a short nap, Jack was also 45 minutes late for bed. Am expecting a messy night, or three. No naps to catch up for the next 2 days cos jack's at nursery. Ouch!
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Thanks JJ&J, that's very encouraging. yes it is so frustrating. The UT/OT loop sounds very familiar :(
What does Jack's day look like right now with EWUs? What does his day look like usually?
I am thinking that Evie might need a later nap since the last two times she woke up later in the morning she took longer to fall asleep for the nap. Would you advise to move it later?
her day looks like this now
5:30 ish WU
12:35 crib for the nap, asleep 12:50-1:00
WU at 2:05-2:15
crib at 6:50 and BT at 7:30pm
Also, would you give a one day with a long nap to her to help her catch up before I cut her nap to 1hr?
BTW, thanks a lot for a quick reply and I hope a 45m nap works for Jack! :)
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just saw your post, oh my. ouch ouch! Fingers crossed that tonight will turn out not bad
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Well jack has woken at 4/4.30 for the last couple of mornings, but then dozed til 5.45 one morning and I think 6.20 this morning. He's been chatting every 20-40 minutes though so hard to know how much sleep he's been getting. Before that we had several days of 5.30am WUs.
Our routines look very similar. The following was working for jack for a long time though :
WU: 6 - 6.30 (though this is earlier atm)
Nap: 12.45 / 1 for 45 mins to 1hr 20 (he doesn't nap Mondays and Tuesdays at nursery so we start on weds with an earlier, longer nap and end on Sunday usually with a later, shorter nap)
BT : 7
You could let your LO catch up before trying anything new, yes, so you know where you are, but she might then take a day or two longer to build the tiredness back up for (hopefully) a longer night again. I think as long as you give it at least 4 days of a 1hr nap you should be ok though. It may be worth pulling BT forward by a bit (15 minutes?) as well to stop her day getting too long. We found eventually that jack did better with a 7pm BT rather than 7.30 when he was regularly waking at 5.30 a while ago.
I'll let you know how tonight goes for us - no OT call outs yet, but he's only been asleep a couple of hours so who knows what's coming!
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Thanks for answering all my questions.
Today DD woke up at 6am. That's an improvement! I think I will move her nap a bit later today and still keep it for 1hr15m for just few more days. As I remember it takes her quiet awhile to get used to new things.
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Yay! That's fab! Yes, worth sticking with 1hr 15 a bit longer then to see how things pan out. Just bear in mind that if things go wrong then UT could be the root cause as much as OT.
Our short nap and late night has answered a few questions here. Apart from one murmur at 5.35, Jack has been silent since 7.45 last night! It's 6.20am here and he's still asleep :) So definitely an UT problem here. The question now for me is what to cap at, and how much sleep to allow after nnds....
ETA: He's just woken now, at 6.35 - almost 11 hours! So back to a decent night again for us :) That was with a 40ish minute nap (and a 13.5hr day as it happens).
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Oh wow that's unbelievable how lsn Jack is! I'm glad he had a great night!
I'll let you know how it's going after a few days.
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Hi how are you? We're able to figure out the length of Jack's nap?
We've been doing 1hr nap for the past few days. At first it seemed that it was working. She had few night of 10hr20m sleep, the day before yesterday I got her in the crib at 6:40pm (it's been 6:50 before that) and she fell asleep at 7:20ish(7:30 is the usuall). She slept for 10.5hrs! Yesterday I also put her in the crib at 6:40 but this time she took 55m to fall asleep( asleep at 7:35) and this morning she is up at 5am!!!!! So back to 9.5hrs night. :o do you think it's OT? I'm just not sure what else to do.
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I was just thinking of your thread last night and wondering how you were getting on. I *think* we've just figured out what's going on with Jack. We've had a better night since we capped to 45 minutes AND moved his nap later. But last night was the first properly good night and I know things can change after a few days (as you're now experiencing), so we'll see.
Jack always used to have a few good night's and then revert back to EWing again after a few days. I'm pretty sure for him it was that he'd crash, catch up on his sleep and then need a tiny further push for it to stick. Does your LO tend to prefer longer mornings or afternoons? Jack prefers longer mornings and one thing I've found this week that a nap at 12.30 will give us EW/NWs at 4am, but the same length nap at 1 gives us an 11hr night. It took a couple of days to kick in though. So you could try an hour still, but pd for her nap a bit later? Lily used to wake at 6ish and sleep for an hour at 1.15pm at this age, for example.
I wouldn't act on that EW either, btw - just do a later nap today and see how tonight goes. You'll get a clearer message that way, one way or another....
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So glad you finally figured it out for Jack!!! Great job!
TBH for the longest time she's been having longer morning A and shorter evening A but awhile back it was the other way around and I'm not 100% sure anymore which one she likes.
I'll try to push her to a later nap today but she is a mess and is crying often. And for the past few days she's been taking a long time to fall asleep at nap time so it was around 12:50/1:00 anyways.
Thanks so much.
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Hi again,
Well it's been a week since we did a 1hr nap and this morning she WU at 4:45am!!! Last night she fell asleep at 7:15 so 9.5hrs of sleep at night. She is very OT and 1hr nap is too short for her. I'll let her catch up at nap time today and after that I have no clue what to do, lol
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Aah, well, it was worth a go. At least you know now. Yes, let her catch up and then.... I don't know either!
So, looking back, uncapped naps give short nights and a grumpy girl. Capping at 1hr 15 or less gave the same. I remember you saying you only tried capping at 1.5hrs for a day or two. Do you think that's worth another go, once she's definitely caught up?
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Lol I know huh no matter what she is grumpy and tired.
Yes we didn't give 1.5hr that long so I will give that another try! Thanks :)
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One thing to bear in mind - do you think the grumpiness is definitely OT related? I agree that the 9.5hr night is likely to be OT, but when she's napping for longer, is she showing tired signs as well as being grumpy? Do you think her mood could be related to developmental stuff, or teeth or something else instead? They do tend to start getting very frustrated at this age where they're understanding a lot but unable to communicate back properly. It could just be typical toddler behaviour coming out. Just something to think about....
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Oh gosh, I don't know anymore, I'm just so confused. If I remember correctly she seemed tired at bedtime and was throwing a fit, but maybe the BT wasn't at an appropriate time for her. I tried watching for tired signed and give her a BT at 8/8:30 because her nap was over 2/2.5hrs but again maybe that was too late, but then her wake up was very early too(9.5hrs long night).
For example today ,If she naps for 2.5-3hrs what BT would you offer? She was awake at 4:45am.
She is not teething but maybe it is a developmental thing. How would I even know? Agggrrr
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((Hugs)), sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you even more. It's hard to see the wood for the trees when your LO isn't sleeping well. I end up questioning EVERYTHING, and never really knowing what's going on. Normally it's a drastic change or really bad day that changes things around. Like Jack will have a terrible nap, or an accidental late night and he'll end up sleeping better as a result and that's the only way I gain any confidence to make changes. That's possibly a LSN thing, but I'm just trying to say that often things that work for us come by accident, and no matter how hard I try and figure J out, sometimes it's just impossible!
Anyway, just focus on getting her some longer naps and over any OT for now, then try 1.5hr naps. At least they're closer to what she was doing so you know you won't be pushing her too much, which will probably be easier on you too! :-*
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No worries, I'm thankful you are sticking with us and trying to help!
She woke up at 2:40pm so napped for 2hrs10m. Would you have her asleep at 7:30pm do you think?
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I think I'd be tempted to try a slightly EBT if it were Jack and he was OT. We'd probably do 15 minutes earlier than normal.
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Sounds good thanks!!!!
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so for the past 2 days I let Evie sleep as long as she wanted for her nap, Yesterday she napped for 2hrs10m and BT at 7:30(took a while to fall asleep) awake at 5:00am, and today for 2hrs20m but woke up few times through it. I had no clue what to do with a BT so DH and I were just watching her closely for signs but there were none, she was playing and was very concentrated but I put her in the crib at 7:10 and she was asleep at 8:00 pm.
But she is very different when she has a long nap day and short night from when she is OT. When OT she is hyper and gets frustrated easily and arches her back and screams cries, but for the last two days she is just very sensitive to everything, and cries very passionately for every little thing. It's difficult to describe it but i can see it. Trying 1.5hr nap tomorrow.
P. S. She woke up at 4:45am this morning! That's 8hrs45m of night sleep, that's just unheard of! Darn 4:45/5:00 it's like she is stuck on this WU time!
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Yucky WU time :(
Personally I've found trying a catch up nap more than as a one-off can backfire spectacularly in super-short nights. Probably going back to capping at 1.5h is the way forward, hold steady for a week if you can and then re-evaluate x
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Totally backfired! Yes 1.5hr nap today. We are going on a vacation on Sunday for a week so hopefully she catches up before that!
Thanks
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Good luck and have a good trip :)
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Thank you :)
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Well, I had a revelation today, Evie has one of her second molars erupting! I don't know how I missed it? It all makes sense now and it makes me feel so much better knowing that. Now only how can I give her meds so she sleeps longer in the morning, no dose will last through the whole night and previously giving it during the night when she is not awake by her own fault, leads to a long NWU. Plus we have a mosquito net on her crib so it would take me some time to remove it and it will cause too much commotion.
Would you change anything in her routine knowing that the cause of all of this is teething?
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Aah, that makes perfect sense! That explains her mood too. I wouldn't change anything right now tbh if she's not getting great overnight sleep. It's probably something you just need to ride out. I guess you could still try capping her nap to 1.5hrs to see if it makes it easier for her to go back to sleep in the early hours, but it's up to you. If she was doing around 1hr 45 before that's not too much of a change for her, and when she had 2hr plus naps things went very wrong didn't they?!
What do you think?
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yes 2hrs+ naps caused 9.5hrs nights but that's been almost 2 months ago, and that's about when 1hr45m naps stopped working too. Not sure if it's all because of teething though.
She took 1hr to fall asleep at BT tonight( i had her in the crib at 6:30pm), she is just sooo OT. I think I will let her sleep in at nap time again tomorrow, and also on Saturday because our flight is very early on Sunday morning so her night will be cut very short.
Oh Gosh, I'm just not looking forward to how screwed up her sleep is gonna get after this trip, it's just bed timing :(
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Sometimes a change in routine or scene shakes things up and makes things right again. You never know.... It's happened for us a few times :) Either way I hope you enjoy your trip. Try and switch off from all the sleep stuff if you can. If you accept you're going to get some early starts and try not to notice anything else then hopefully you'll enjoy it instead of anticipating the after effects. I know that's really hard - I struggle to switch off myself - but I hope you manage it somehow x
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Thank you, I will try my best, I know DH needs me to, we all need this break. Plus I'm thinking once we are back I'll try to change her timing a bit by shifting her nap and BT by 1hr ahead so even if she would wake early it wouldn't feel as bad.
Thanks to both of you ladies for great help!
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Yes, good plan, I've done the same before just to save my sanity! Plus it's easier to do EBT if normal BT is a bit later.
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That's it, it's just for my own sanity! :)
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Hello, how are you ladies?
It's been a week since we came back from our vacation and things have been interesting. We are doing now 1.5 hr nap that I wake DD from and her nights are still about 9.5hrs long (only had 1 night since we came back that was 9hrs50m long). What changed is that she is taking anywhere from 45m to over 1hr to fall asleep at BT!
What's interesting is that for the past 4/5 days she falls asleep at 7:40/7:50pm no matter what time I lay her in the crib. I had her in the crib at 6:30-7:00pm and she still fell asleep at the same time.
Just to remind you of our day:
Wu anywhere between 5am and 5:30 am
her nap starts at about 12:45ish pm ( 12:30 in the crib) and lasts till about 2:15pm
And she is still teething! I know you've said to just stick to it and hopefully it gets better after she is done teething but I was wondering if there is anything I could do to help her fall asleep sooner at BT? I dont' know if she is UT or OT because there are no tired signs of any kind before BT. She is playing nicely so DH and I just guesstimate when to put her to sleep.
Thanks a lot!
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Dyt she could need more of a cut to her nap? By 22 months we were definitely not on a 1.5h average nap. At home (4/7 days it would be up to 1.5h but I would usually wake her, nursery 3/7 days at least one if not 2 NNDs and one nap of around an hour).
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Gosh I really don't know because we never ended up figuring out if 1.5hr nap was what she needed because of the trip. If I cut it to 1hr15m again, would you suggest to keep her BT at 7pm (crib at 6:30pm)??
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Yes I'd change one thing at a time then you will find it easier to see if it's helping or not x
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thanks Katherine, I will give that a try ...again lol.
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An update:
After cutting DD's nap to 1hr15m we had really good 3 days which looked like this
WU around 5:30/5:40 am
Nap around 12:45 ish (12:30 crib)
WU 2:00 ish
BT 7:10/7:15 ( tried 7:35-7:45 crib)
I was scared to mention anything about her sleep in order not to jinx it and today I shared my happiness with a relative and bang.....jinxed it. I had her in the crib at 6:45 pm and she fell asleep at 7:30 so she is back to taking a long time to settle. And then she woke up at 11:55 pm and now it's 2:25am and she is still awake!!! I went in to her room twice. First time shortly after she WU and gave her Advil cause she is teething ( although she isn't crying but happily chatting). Then I went in just after 2am because she's never had a NWU longest then 2hrs so I was worried something is up. I asked her if she is in pain but she didn't reply. So I just told her it's time to sleep and no
More talking. Diaper was ok too.
I don't even know what to do and how to get her back to sleep? She's been self settling for a long time and me trying to get her to sleep will keep her up longer. I'm so confused and frustrated. I thought I finally got it figured out.
P.S. Fell asleep at 2:40ish am, I think ( so 2hrs40m long NWU :o. ) Up for the day at 6:30ish am.
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Could be developmental....birthday coming up soon right?
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yes she'll be 2 in a month.
How long would you stick to this routine before making another change?
thanks
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Generally I think if I saw a pattern emerging over a few days to a week the. I would try another tweak x
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It's been over a week since her nap was cut to 1hr15m and I don't see any pattern only random things happening. First few day were good- fell asleep at BT in 30m and slept for 10/10.5hrs at night. Then she took 50m to fall asleep at BT and that night had long 2hr40m NWU. Then few more ok nights of 10hrs sleep and taking 30m to fall asleep at BT. Yesterday she was very tired before her nap and I barelly was able to wake her. Then again took 50m to fall asleep at BT and had only 9.5hrs night. Is she getting OT now or is it still UT? Do you see any patter in this? Maybe every few days she needs a slightly longer nap?
Long NWU and taking 50m to settle at BT made me think she was UT but yesterday's tiredness before the nap, barelly wakening after the nap and taking 50m to fall asleep at BT and 9.5hr night makes me think OT just because of how hard it was to wake her at nap time. Or maybe she is still UT but OT from shorter nights?
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Hi AMJ - guess what.....
We've got exactly the same thing going on!! I can't figure out how much day sleep she needs, her nights are 10hrs with a NW plus BT resistance.
We've got 2 weeks til birthday so I'm betting on that ::)
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Lauren, I'm not surprised. Our LO's always been having similar sleep issues only yours is a bit lsn then mine :). How long is your LO's nap? Are you gonna make any changes or just stick to it and hope for the best lol?
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She's on an hours nap. So far I haven't made any changes but I'm considering trying 45mins for a week to see if that makes a difference?
I'm at that point where I can't work out if she's UT or OT. She shows no tired signs anymore! Last week we had a day where she only took a 10min nap in the car and was completely fine all day in her mood and behaviour but that night had 4 or 5 NW starting 45 mins after she went to bed so completely OT but you'd never have guessed!!
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I see. We only get tired signs before nap. Sometimes before BT but they are not reliable at all. It never ends :)
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the day after a bad night, do you offer a longer nap or stick to 1hr?
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It could be that her nap is still too long. Even lily, who was only on the low side of average sleep needs, was only doing 45 minutes nap at this age, and about to start on NNDs. Jack would nap every day if I let him, but to get good night's he needs 2-3 NNDs a week and only 20-30 minutes when he does nap.
If we have a short night I offer the same nap at the same time as normal so he regulates at night and doesn't use the nap to catch up.
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I was thinking maybe to cut her nap to 1hr now. I will try it next. And yes so far I kept her nap at the same time like you.
I can't believe Jack is down to 20/30m.
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Yeah, he's definitely LSN! ;)
Let us know how you get on x
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Thanks I will
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Hello ladies.
Im back here for the same reason as the last time. Nothing changed since then, nothing! I'm at loss. DD is still having 9/9.5 hrs nights and is really OT. I've tried 1hr nap, 1hr10m, 1hr15m but at the very first day it seems to work and give us a 10hr night but the next day her OT accumulates and her night becomes 9.5hrs then 9hrs. Then I give her either a 1.5hr long nap(which would previously just help her catch up a bit but few days ago it resulted in 2hr long chatty NWU) or a nap of as long as she wants to sleep.
Also this past Sunday we had Daylight Savings time and her day became something like this:
WU 5:50am instead of 4:50
Crib at 1:30 and asleep at 1:45/1:55
WU around 3:00 ish or a bit earlier depending on a nap length I'm trying.
Crib 7:15/7:30
BT 8:00 ish 8:15
Today she woke up at 4:55am (back to her old WU) Her BT yesterday was 7:55 and she napped for 1hr10m :(. )
She is so tired when I try to wake her from her nap that I'm just not able to do it. After opening the door to her room I turn off her white noise and play music in the hole way to help her come to her senses but she just turns around and goes back to sleep which would never happen before.
I don't know what else to do. Nothing
is working. The nights are short, she is miserable, I need sleep too. HELP
I end up leaving her in the crib in the morning for 1hr at least and poor thing is so bored there. She calls me sometimes and when I tell her that it's not time to get up she gets so upset and I don't blame her. I've been very consistent at keeping her in the crib when she has an EWU but she never ever resettled back to sleep. If she is up she is up.
What else can I do? How is it possible that nothing works. I can't believe it .
P.S. I just read 1-0 Transition post on here and it seems that we've tried everything but 1 thing:
"* If LO is sleeping a short night due to the 1-0 try shifting the nap earlier in order to make A time to BT longer. This can work well for LOs who can't deal with a shorter nap."
I don't completely understand how this might help though. This still keeps her day the same length right? So BT is at the same time and I let her nap for as long as she wants? Plus I thought that if the nap is too early it will reinforce the EWU(although she wake early even with a later nap). We've tried giving her a long nap and moving the BT later but she can't quiet handle it and still has either a NWU or EWU. Also I've given her an earlier nap( by 10/15m) but does the above advice mean giving a much earlier nap?
Thanks
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(((hugs))) It's horrible when you get a long spell of EWing. We've had it with both children and in the past I've thought I'd go mad hoping that one day I'd sleep til 6am!
I would try an earlier nap, yes, and probably an earlier BT too. Her days must be very long with this EWing, which is probably leaving her OT by the end of the day, no matter what you do with the nap. It's hard to know what to do with the nap length since nothing is really working for you, but maybe something like:
WU: 5am
Nap: 12 - 1.30 at the latest
BT: Asleep by 6.30 / 6.45? Try and aim for at least 5 hrs A after the nap, but a day length as close to 13 hours as you can. Most people say 12 hours really, but that's never worked for Jack as he's never done more than 11 hrs at night. With him, I work on 13hr day being a minimum, and 13.5 as a maximum as a regular day length.
I know an early night is really scary after so many EWs, but if Jack is OT he needs a long nap AND an early BT to catch up. Longer term, if you get WU to a reasonable time, you could try a nap window of 1-2pm or something. I find Jack now needs 5 hrs A to bed after a 30 minute nap, so you might need to set a time by which your LO has to be awake from a nap in order to preserve BT, and then figure out nap length from that. It's just trial an error I'm afraid. But she does sound OT, so I'd try and earlier nap and shortened day to address that first. Then we can look at getting a decent day length (13.5hrs max) and figure out nap length from that.
What do you think?
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Thanks for your support!!! It really means a lot to me!
TBH I don't want to shift her day back by 1hr. I totally agree with you about giving her an earlier nap and an EBT to catch her up but I definitely don't want to shift the day back because in the long run it will be back to what it was. What do you think I will give her an early nap at 1-2:30 and then BT at 7:30? I mean its still early to her (30m earlier)and she doesn't know there was a time change, right.
Yesterday I tried giving her an EBT and had her in the crib at 7:15pm but she didn't fall asleep till 7:55pm but I think today with a longer nap she might.
An I think she also needs about 5hrs of A before BT.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!
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I can totally understand not wanting to shift BT too early. I've been there myself, and cos J doesn't tack on beyond 11 hrs (11.5 if he's really tired and the planets are aligned), I tend to stick to a normal BT plus or minus 30 minutes too. But sometimes you don't know til you try!
I think your plan sounds good - maybe give her a day to catch up on that routine and then aim for 5hrs A after her nap as a minimum from then on. I'd still try and have an eye on her day length, in that she'd probably do better with a capped nap than a really long day, but I'm sure you will make a sensible call on that, knowing what suits her best.
The other thing you could try is a gro clock. Sorry, I can't remember if I mentioned or asked about that before but that's really helped with jacks EWing. I was really strict about setting a get up time (as opposed to a wake up time) with Jack, but the clock worked where that didn't. Might be worth a go?
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Gosh, lol I don't remember last time DD had an 11hr night!
So yesterday didn't go as planned at all. DH didn't wake her after 1.5hrs of nap and when I got home and woke her it was 3:18pm (she fell asleep at 1:05pm) so her nap was 2hrs13m. Then crib at 7:40pm and BT at 8:25pm. And her last A ended up being just a bit over 5hrs. Then she slept through the night (yey) and was up at 5:55 am.
For today I'm thinking offering her a nap at around 1pm again and maybe giving her 1.5hrs??? so up at 2:30pm and BT at 7:30/8pm? what do you think. The nap would be then 30 earlier then her usual 1:30 so basically following the advice from the 1-0 transition thread.
With regards to a gro clock we tried it but it didn't work much. There are few problems I encounter with it. First if I set it for lets say 7am cause that gives DD an 11hr night and she wakes at 5:30/6am there is no way she will stay in the crib for that long. Also she usually has a bowel movement as soon as she wakes so letting her lay in a dirty diaper for so long is uncomfortable. But getting her washed and changed with a minimum light and then trying to get her back to crib is next to impossible. She is potty trained during the day but wears a diaper at night and for the nap. I know I should be getting her up as soon as she wakes to get her on the potty but with these EWUs I never was able to got her to the potty on time in the mornings. After the nap when I wake her she is so grumpy that I also can't get the to sit on the potty in time because she refuses it and cries so she ends up peeing in the diaper. TBH I don't even know how to teach her to go on the potty first thing in the morning and after the nap. She doesn't even have a clue that that's what she needs to do because we couldn't practice that.
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The key to the gro clock is setting a realistic and achievable goal. So if she is waking for the day at 5am, set the clock at 5/5.10am to begin with. If she has to wait an hour straight off it will never work. Enforce the time, do not go in or respond at all unless proper 'I need you' and then when lights on respond immediately to a call with lights, excitement, hooray!!! Once she gets that, creep the time forward 5-10 mins and hold until she is making that time comfortably. Etc etc until desired WU :). Fwiw my DD will often call for the toilet before lights on. We take her straight there with minimal fuss and she goes straight back to bed to wait for the light. Even if she doesn't sleep the principle is there. You could do same with a nappy change if you think it's really necessary :)
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It looks like I was doing it all wrong this whole time. I will try it the proper way!
With regards to potty training in the am, do you think I should get her up right away as soon as she wakes up and get her to sit down on the potty and wait till she is done., then return her to the crib? Or just not worry about her going on the potty at that time at all and just let her go in the diaper?
Thanks
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Good luck with the clock, honestly if you can get it working it is magic! Dad will now wait ageeeeeesssss for the clock to come on, whereas at the beginning a few mins was all she'd manage without calling. You may need to do some WIWO or just calling out 'it's night time, wait for Mr Sunshine' to reinforce the message but hopefully it will really pay off and get you all some better sleep :)
The potty thing is tricky, but as day and night dryness is a different thing I wouldn't be rushing her to the potty as soon as she wakes. That interaction at an EW may be enough to prolong it and discourage a return to sleep. I would however make it clear to her that if she wakes up and needs to pee/poop she can call you to use the potty. When DD was younger we used to actually take the potty into her room in the (almost) dark, sit her on then straight back into bed. Now we walk her to the bathroom but she still goes back in her room until WU time.
You could start taking her to the potty when you get up for the day even if she has already been in her diaper. Just to encourage the habit?
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Thank you! And that's very true that getting her to go to the potty at EWU can make things worth. I'll stick with offering the potty when it's ok to get up. Thanks a bunch :)
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Hi ladies. I would like your suggestions on something please.
For the past few days I've been giving DD a longer nap (1hr45m) and trying to keep her day 13.5hrs long. In general her night increased to closer to 10hrs a night and her mood got much better. I've been giving her an earlier nap to be able to give her 5hrs/5hrs15m A before BT. I think that after 1.5hrs of nap she needs about 5hrs evening A and after 1hr45m nap she needs about 5hrs15m A. We had 1 day where she had 1.5hrs nap and a 13.5hrs day and ended up having 10hrs20m night!!!! Yesterday she had 1hr45m nap and a 13.5hr day and had 10hrs50m night but also had 1hr20m NWU. I used to think those NWUs were UT but looking back now at the time when I was cutting her nap to 1hr-1hr15m and her having EWU and those NWU makes me think that they are OT. Although I'm not 100% sure. Now my dilemma is either sticking to 1hr45m nap and cutting her day from 13.5hrs to 13hrs, or cutting the nap to 1.5hrs and keeping the day 13hrs long or 13.5hrs long. What do you think I should do today? I hope i didn't confuse you :)
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Hi hun we may be too late for today, what did you do?
Just out of interest how much does your nap time and bedtime (on the clock) tend to vary right now? Are you doing set times or is there quite a lot of variation?
Personally I would shorten the nap and get the day to a 13h max as both of mine have struggled with less than 11h night sleep. However not all LOs are the same ;). Whatever you decide I would change one thing at a time, so if you are changing nap length, keep day length the same, or vice versa xx
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Hi Katherine, I cut the nap to 1.5hrs and then kept the day 13hrs long. She was very hyper by dinner so fingers crossed for tonight and the morning.
For the past week or two I've been concentrating on A times to try and figure out what As and nap length would give her more sleep and better mood. DD's WU varied from 4:35am-5:00am when i was cutting her nap really short (1hr-1hr15m) to 5:20-6:10am when she is having a 1.5-2hrs long naps. In the last week her nap started anywhere from 12:15-1:00 pm and BT was anywhere between 7:00-8:00pm. So I would say it varies a lot. Personally I would love to go back to set times but first I need to know what DD needs.
TBH I never was able to read her and never was able to give her the necessary sleep. I just wish I could help her get consistent rest
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I can see why you're doing that :). It's so frustrating isn't it when you feel you are doing all you can and it just doesn't work?
I do think it's worth at some point with toddlers just handing the control over to them though, obviously this has to be when you feel you are ready but a set nap time and bedtime based on your best guess of what they can handle can work wonders. You kind of have to trust them to get the rest they need when given a sensible opportunity, that doesn't mean every nap will be great or every night will be the same length, but I think that when the goalposts aren't moving they have a chance to actually self-regulate.
Keep us posted how it's going xx
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Yes yes it is very frustrating and upsetting.
So DD fell asleep at 7:07 pm last night and WU at 5:26am. 10.5hrs is her max at night. But even though she slept the longest she looks pretty tired and her dark circles are really visible today.Yesterday she WU at 6:10am that's why I was able to give her 7pm BT but today I really don't want to do 6:30 BT cause she will be up at 5am. So I don't know what to do today, maybe stick to 1.5hrs nap and give her 13.5hra day or increase the nap to 1hr45m cause the day will be 13.5hrs? The only thing is that she is very tired/hyper way before nap and BT so this makes me think she needs more then 1.5hrs day sleep even though 1.5hr nap gave me the longest 10.5hrs night so far, I have a felling this is just temporary.
Here I wrote out what her day might look with 1.5, 1hr45m and 2grs nap keeping 13.5hrs day
5:26 WU
A(6hrs15m)
11:30 crib
11:45 S(2)
1:45 WU
A(5hrs15)
6:30 crib
7:00 BT
Or
5:26 WU
A(6.5)
11:45 crib
12:00 S(1hr45m)
1:45 WU
A(5hrs15m)
6:30 crib
7:00 BT
Or
5:26 WU
A(7)
12:15 crib
12:30 S(1.5)
2:00 WU A(5)
6:30 crib
7:00 BT
I know what you mean about set times. We used to be on set nap/BT for a longest time cause nothing was working but then her sleep got very bad so I had to go back to Counting As. I think if I can figure this out a bit better I will go back to set times.
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In addition to my last message:
Well today is definitely different. It's her birthday so she had presents and sweets before her nap plus she was looking really tired and hyper so I put her in the crib really early at 11:30am now it's 12:30 and she keeps jumping up and down, screaming for me, damanding to get up etc. She is probably really exited and has a sugar rush or both. She doesn't take APOP car nap or stroller nap so crib is our only chance.
P. S. I just left her in the crib and she finally passed out at 1pm. What is over excitement or the fact that I put her in the crib really early at 11:30am? I don't know but now if I give her at least 1.5hrs that leaves her with only 4.5hrs of A before BT (she usually needs 5hrs) and a 13.5hrs day. And we had an outing planned to the playground after her nap wich will make her even more OS. She gets OS so easily. Does anybody else's LOs get OS so easy? What do you do about it?
For example, she loves to dance and in December I took her to a ballet class to see if she would follow teacher's instructions. She loved it (and wasn't following any instructions but just dance and danced)but was going crazy after the class and tbh after that day her sleep went down hill till today! She keeps asking me to take her there again and I don't know what to do about it. I would love her to go but I'm scared because I know she will get super OS.
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Hugs, being excited does really throw things off sometimes doesn't it? Happy birthday to her :)
How did the day turn out? I would have probably done the shorter A to bed, the longer morning hopefully would have meant she didn't struggle to settle. But you know her best!
I think 11.30am may have been too early, 6h A would have been on the short side for my DD at that age. Don't underestimate the birthday leap silliness that can happen too.
How was your night?
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Thanks for the birthday wishes. At the end it wasn't too bad, she was acting hyper by the end of the day but I put her in the crib at 6:15pm and she was asleep by 7:10pm then up at 5:30am. For some reason 1.5hr nap always gives us 10hrs20m long night which is the best in a while but it's always exactly 10hr20m.
Today I'm sticking to 1.5hr nap and 13.5hr day.
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Good luck, I hope you have a nice day planned and something you can enjoy even if sleep ends up being less than ideal xx
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Thank you :)
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Hi Eva's mummy. Thanks for your reply. I tried moving her nap later but it seems that it only makes her OT. Recently I moved her nap a bit earlier, therefore increasing her last A and that seemed to help a bit.
But I will definitely keep your suggestion in mind just in case an earlier nap stops working.
Thanks :)
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An update:
So just like always after about 3 days of 1.5hr long naps and 10hrs20m long nights she gets more and more OT and then takes ages to fall asleep and is up early. And then I'm back to giving her a long nap cause she is just exhausted, but this time I gave it pretty early at 11:45am , she WU at 5:10am, and then she slept for 1hr50m and woke up on her own at 1:40pm then crib at 6:15 and BT at 7:10. So I thought by giving the nap early this will leave us with a longer A before BT and it could be what she needs but now she is up at 12:40am(usually she is up closer to the end of the night at 2:30 -3:00am) and it took her 2hrs to fall back asleep! Then up for the day at 6:30am. Just 15/20m longer then 1.5hr nap gives a NWU or 8.5/9hr night, but a shorter nap gives Ot and EWU (also 9/9.5hrs night) .... Hmmm which one do I choose????
Maybe I should try a later nap like Eva's mummy suggested but I feel like she needs a longer A before BT. Or maybe give her even earlier nap therefore making the morning A shorter then then evening A? I really don't think there is anything else I could do.
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Sorry, I've been away for ages. Things have been really hectic here. Sorry to hear you're still struggling though :(
So just like always after about 3 days of 1.5hr long naps and 10hrs20m long nights she gets more and more OT and then takes ages to fall asleep and is up early.
I wondered, what makes you think she's getting OT? I would have thought that after 3 days of good nights and long naps that she'd have caught up on any OT, and any further short nights would be UT. Certainly Jack would be. I know you're capping her nap slightly, but if 15/20 minutes more sleep means she takes an hour and a half off her night then she must be right at the maximum of how much day sleep she can have, so I'd be very surprised if she was getting OT from missing that amount of sleep each day.
When Jack has done this in the past, he's needed a few days to catch up (so three, for your LO), and then when he starts shortening his nights it means he needs a further tweak to maintain a proper amount of tiredness. I tend put him down for his nap at his normal time if he EW's (so he has a longer first A), and then cap slightly further. I know that sounds scary, but it's about getting enough tiredness into a well rested toddler to carry it on into the night, without allowing a shortened A, or longer nap to be the way they catch up. It looks to me like you're in a classic UT/OT loop, where she has short nights, gets OT, catches up with longer naps for 3 days, then shortens her nights due to UT, then gets OT due to the short nights....
I'd take from that that a 1.5 hour nap is good for catching up on OT, but too long for every day. I wouldn't draw any more conclusions than that. So then you need to cap at less than that to see what works, bearing in mind that it might be she needs her nap capped by quite a bit. For example, Jack needs to nap for 1hr 20 or more if he's OT, but once he's rested I need to cap at 30 minutes to maintain good nights. If I let him sleep 1.5 hours for 3 days, and then still let him sleep even an hour on the days after that, we'd be getting short nights due to UT, not OT.
What do you think about it all possibly being due to UT and not OT?
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Hi no worries :) and thanks
The reason why I think that she is OT is because her behavior is totally different from when she has a long nap. It's hard to explain it but I can see that she is very different. Also when previously cutting her nap to 1hr15 and 1hr she would be just so exhausted that she would just sleep on my shoulder, can't open her eyes, can't sit up, then by the evening just plain hyper. With a long nap she is very sensitive, cries for every little reason, hysterical. It probably sounds very similar to you but it looks very different.
What you are saying totally makes sense to me but she just can't pull through. I'm loosing my mind over this and EWUs are not helping.
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The EW is horrible - we had it for a long long time with both Lily and Jack. In fact, with Jack I got to the point where I considered a 5.30am WU as fairly standard for a long time and didn't even try and change it cos I wa so sick of thinking about it. Although he hasn't EW'd regularly for months, I still consider 6am to be a good / normal WU time after such a long spell of EWs.
I guess you are back to her having a long, uncapped nap then. I'd probably move BT later then, just to get WU after a 9.5hr night at a reasonable time. I think some LOs here have dropped their nap like that - by keeping a long nap and shortening nights until they could manage without a nap at all. Maybe you've got one like that :) Jack is happier on an uncapped nap and shorter nights too, but his temperament is generally very sunny and chilled, so I can put up with a slightly more grouchy child from capping - he's still a really happy boy. If he wasn't coping I wouldn't cap either, and some just don't suit capping. At least with an uncapped nap you'll know she's getting the sleep she needs...
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At this point 5:30 seems good enough since yesterday she was up at 4:40am.
Right now I'm doing 12-2 nap where she is asleep at 12:15 and then asleep at 7:30 it's only been few days like this but she is already grumpy and she is hnot copping with it well. Tbh she is not coping with either. I really don't know how to go about anymore. Just feel like giving up
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How short would you suggest to cut her nap to?
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Ooh, she's a tricky one, isn't she?! :) I think I'd be tempted to try one or both of two extremes, just to get a clear reaction. If she's getting OT then I guess you could go all out on fixing that, try a day or two of a completely uncapped nap at 12 and an early bedtime of asleep by 6.45 or 7. I know you're worried about what that'll bring, but if she's OT then the long days are going to be contributing to that, no matter what you do with her nap. I'd get an early night myself, prepare for the worst and cross my fingers....!
The other extreme would be to cap at 45 minutes for a couple of days and see where that takes you. If she'll nap in the car or buggy you could even have a day out as a break from all this and try and distract yourself! I'd probably bring BT forward in that scenario, too - maybe aim for 7ish there as well.
If neither of those work I don't know what to suggest I'm afraid! I think you've tried everything else, so I'd probably push BT right back in the hope for a more reasonable WU, set a nap and BT and just observe her for a bit to see if anything emerges. Sorry, I know none of those will feel like options but like I say, I think you've tried everything else...
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I'm assuming she's not teething any more, btw?
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Yes it seems like I've tried everything! Your plan sounds good. Thanks so sticking with us! I'll give it a try. And yes she is not teething anymore
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Good luck xxx
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Thank you I need it!
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Good luck from me too, great advice there xx
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Thank you :)
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Just wanted to update you with what as happening for the past few days. We are on day 4 of set nap
12 in the crib,
nap at 12:15/20
2 pm I wake her
crib at 7pm
7:30pm BT
First 2 days didn't go good. The third day wasn't too bad but because she was up at 4:40am her day was really long so she ended up having a pretty much very silent NWU from 11:50-12:50 and then up at 6am. That's a very good WU for her aside from the NWU.
Tonight she had another NWU at 2:30-3:40 but this one was a chatty one. But then she WU at 7am!!!!!!!! This never ever ever ever happens. From 7:30pm to 7am with an 1hr10m NWU- I'll take that.
Today I still put her in the crib at 12 for a nap but it's 12:50 and she is still talking which doesn't reallly surprise me cause it is only 5hrs of A from 7 to 12. But now I don't know when to wake her because I don't know how long of a nap she needs to be able to stay up till 7/7:30pm. I think if she naps for 1hr45-2hrs she needs about 5.5hrs of A and if she naps for 1.5hrs then it's closer to 5hrs of A. What do I do???????? Help
P. S. She finally fell asleep at 1:22pm. Should I still wake her at 2? Or maybe give her till 2:20 so she naps for 1hr?
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Sorry, I've only just seen this :( What did you do? I tend to stick to pretty much the same times as possible with a set nap and BT, plus or minus 15/20 minutes, as it sort of evens out. If she was UT going down for her nap, then she can probably cope with a shorter nap cos then it's just normal A til bed and she can catch up at night. With Lily at this age, if she took longer to go to sleep I would still wake at the same time cos she'd probably need less sleep if she wasn't that tired. She was OK with that as she got the chance to go to sleep sooner and sleep longer the next day if she was tired. The most I would have allowed would be an hour I think, and then I probably would have moved BT back 10-15 minutes as well.
But, but, but.... 7am WU???!!!! That's amazing!!! :) :) :) I really hope it continues for you - or past 6am at least! Maybe set naps will suit her then? I'm so pleased you've had a couple of decent WU's :D
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Hi
I ended up wakig her after 1hr so at 2:25. She didn't seem too bad for the rest of the day but was getting too hyper by the evening so I had her in the crib at 6:30 and she was asleep at 7:10pm then slept through and WU at 5:25 :(. I was secretly hoping for a better WU. I don't know what to take from this. Maybe with a 45m nap like you suggested she woudl've had a longer night so maybe next time I get a 7am WU I would give her a later 45m nap and see how that turns out.
Yes I know 7am seems unbelievable! I hope that continues and NWU mysteriously stop
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Hi I hope I can catch you here today :)
The next day after my last post DD WU at 5:25am and then crib at 12:15 and nap at 12:20 -2pm (I woke her) then crib at 7 and BT at 7:35. Today she WU at 5:45am and clearly looked tired before her nap so as usual crib at 12:00. She looked like she fell asleep at 12:20 (or maybe she just laid really quietly) but then started to cry at 12:23 and after that chatting, singing, sitting etc. It is 1:45 and she is still at it. I guess I should get her up at 2 and then EBT? But what time?? She never missed a nap.
P.S. She just fell asleep at 2pm after 2 hrs of chatting and singing. How long should I let her nap for and when to do BT ? ???
I tried getting her up at 2:30 but it seemed that she was in a deep sleep so I waited till she moved and then woke her at 2:35/40 ish.
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She was pretty good after the nap just a bit whiny but after dinner and during wind down she was pretty tired. I had her in the crib at 6:30 but she fell asleep at 7:15pm which surprised me cause I thought she will be asleep in minutes.
What I wonder if she would've fallen asleep sooner during nap time if I had her in the crib let's say at 12:30 or 1 instead of 12?
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Sorry I didn't see this - I tend to log on at the beginning and end of my day. I'm not sure what the time difference is but if I'm in time, what are you doing for BT? I'd try and stick to a set BT if you can, just to see the impact it has on your night.
Good luck!
Oops - posted with you. I was going to suggest moving her nap back bit, but you'll need to keep her A til bed the same so her nap doesn't get too close to BT.
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Hi no problem. We are in Serbia at the moment so your and mine time difference is probably not that much apart. It is 8:45pm here now.
Sorry I don't understand, do you mean giving her an earlier nap? Earlier then 12? What time?
Her last A ended up being only 4hrs45m but I was afraid that since her nap was so short she would not be able to stay up full 5 or 5.5hrs
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No, sorry, I meant a later nap - maybe 12.30 or 1 like you suggested. You could try 12.30 for a bit and then try 1 if you get any more mucking about at nap time.
It's 7.50 here now, so pretty close, yes :)
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Oh ok yes that makes sense. I will probably give her 12:30 nap tomorrow but she usually takes about 15m to fall asleep so would probably be asleep at around 12:45 then and awake at 2.
Thanks a lot. I'm in crazy panic when she does things like this and totally loose my mind and don't know what to do. Only after I think it through :)
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I think if you can find a set nap time that works, that's where they can really help cos it take a lot of the tweaking / panic away. You just offer the opportunity to sleep and it's up to them what they do - it all evens out over a period of days. Plus, I find it a lot easier to figure out what's going on that way too!
How did last night go after that short, late nap?
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Yeah that would be perfect. I already feel better and calmer after setting 12-2 nap.
She was tossing and turning for about fist 1-2hrs after she fell asleep but slept through till 5:20 so 10hr night is not bad!! Also she had little sniffles for the past 2 weeks but now she has a pretty bad cough too so maybe that's what was bugging her.
I have a feeling that if I offer the nap at 12 today she will take it because of a short nap yesterday and then tomorrow she will probably need a later/shorter nap. So I'm debating now if I should do 12-2 (where the actual nap is about 1hr40/45m) today or 12:30-2 (and she woul probably nap for 1hr15m).
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Hi Ladies. how are you?
Here is what was happening with DD in the last couple of days. After the day when she took 2hrs to fall asleep at nap time and then I woke her after 30m at 2:30pm, she seemed very tired for few next days and here I'm pretty sure she was tired from the way she was acting. I tried giving her a longer nap but she was taking about 30m to fall asleep so I had to get her up after 1.5hrs so she doesn't nap past 2pm. EBT wasn't helping cause she was taking forever to fall asleep and then up early in the am. Yesterday I put her for a nap a bit earlier then usual , and that way she was able to nap for 1hr45m. After that she was a totally changed child! She was my wonderful sweet girl. That night she slept for 10.5hrs and was up at 6:10am. But I guess because of a longer night she wasn't ready for a nap at 12 so fell asleep at 12:50. I woke her at 2:20 and she is back to being "crazy". Then BT at 7:30 and I'm pretty sure she will have an EWU.
From the above I think that to catch up she needs to nap for 1hr45m from 12:15-2pm. Then she has a better night. But I can't figure out what to do with her nap on the following day because she takes a long time to fall asleep at nap and then 1.5hrs/1hr/30m nap is making her hyper/OT? So then what is the right nap? and at what time? ARrrrr this is so frustrating!
P.S. Surprise Surprize! She had a great 10.5hrs night and WU at 6:00am. Then I gave her another 1.5hr nap from 12:45-2:15 so let's see how the BT and te night goes.
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If jack is OT then he tends to need a nap around 20-30 minutes earlier than usual, so working back from that, I'd have thought a nap at 12.15 when OT means a normal nap time of 12.35 - 12.45 should be about right? A few months ago jack would nap at 12.15 when OT but 12.45 normally, so you could try putting her down half an hour later after a catch up day?
Sorry, just seem your edit. How did it go?
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Yes I think that about same for us!
We had 2 nights of 10.5hrs long and this night was supposed to be the third night which usually when everything goes wrong. I was anxious to see how it was gonna turn out but thInge didn't go as planned at all. At 11 she woke up screaming bloody murder cause she lost he bunny. I ran in this bling she go her arm or leg caught in the crib railings or something. The bunny was in the corner of the crib were she couldn't see him. She calmed down as soon as I found him but then couldn't fall asleep for a very long time. She just laid there quietly. After 2hrs I went in to cuddle her thinking that would help her feel better but that just made things worse. She started calling for me after I left and asking to potty and to get up, cryin etc. anyways she ended up staying up for 3.5hrs! So we have to start over tomorrow with a catch up nap again and then back to 1.5hr nap from 12:45-2:15 and stick to it for few days
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Urgh, a 3.5 hr NW?! I think that beats even jack's record! Hope you get a better night tonight and both get to catch up a bit x
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Hi we've been getting long NWUs almost every night since that incident with "lost" bunny. But she is teething now and doesn't seem in pain but like the usual grumpy etc. I give her meds of course but don't really see much change in her behaviour or sleep.
I thought I was onto something trying out 1hr45m nap to catch her up and 1.5hr on any other day since it gave us 10.5hrs night for few days but now with teething everything is upside down again and it feels like I'm back to square one. She is taking 25-30m to fall asleep at nap ( I try to have her asleep at 1:45pm and wake at 3:15pm) and then takes about 40-45m to fall asleep at BT( I try to have her aleep by 8:30 the latest). Oh yes her day moved by 1hr later because she is having long NWUs and that brought her morning WU to about 7/7:30am. She won't go to nap earlier. If she needs a catch up I have her asleep by 1:15 and then up at 3:00pm and BT at 8:30pm.
Tonight she WU screaming again for me. This is a second time. When I woke up I looked at the baby monitor to see if she lost her bunny again but he was in her hand. She said : my bunny! I pointed out that he was in her hand and she said: yes. She ended up staying up for 1hr20m. So I'm not sure why she WU scared but do you think she can be having nightmares? I'm worried if this continues she will loose lots of sleep due to this.
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It could be developmental (she just had her birthday right?) but whenever my DD took a long time to sleep for nap/BT it was almost always UT and I needed to put down later. We had a period of lots of sleep right around 2nd birthday for a couple of weeks, then sleep needs just dropped and we started having 1-2 NNDs per week with max 1h30 sleep on the other days, usually less. I'd be tempted to either lengthen your day deliberately or cut the nap to an hour, slightly more if a catch up day needed. What does your day actually look like right now then? WU? PD for nap 1.15?? Or 1.45?? Sorry not sure if you are taking account of the to she takes to fall asleep or now. And what time do you PD for bed?
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hi, yes she turned 2 on April 7.
her day is about 13.5hrs long now.
On the day she needs to catch up:
WU 6:30/7am
A 6hrs15m/6hrs45m
Crib at 12:50
Nap at 1:15 for 1hr45m (lately she falls asleep closer to 1:30)
WU 3:00 I wake her
A 5.5hrs (before started teething needed about 5.5hrs after a long nap)
crib at 8:00
BT 8:30 but now closer to 8:45
On other days this is what seemed to work before teething
WU 6:50/7am
A 6hrs45m
Crib 1:20/1:30
Nap 1:45 for 1.5hrs
WU 3:15 I woke her
A 5hrs15m ( she did better with this A after 1.5hrs nap)
Crib 8:00
BT 8:30 but now closer to 8:45
Plus we've been having those NWUs every other day. Few were due to lost bunny.
Also I'm wondering if now 1hr 45m nap became too long even for catching up and 1.5hrs is enough for her to catch up. Although yesterday she had a 1.5hr nap (that's after a NWU) and the following night was only 10hrs.
When you said to deliberately give her a longer day how long do you mean? 14hrs long or longer?
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Ah ok, no I wouldn't lengthen your day. Your day is very long already. I would cut the nap shorter and try to bring the day shorter again, I think as you said the longer naps are robbing your night sleep again x
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I'll give it another go!
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Good luck!
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Thank you :)
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Hi there again. How are you all? I'm loosing my mind!!
About a week ago DD had great few nights of 10.5-10hr40m with 1hr15m nap but then suddenly she had a 9hr night and since then it's back to long NWUs or EWUs. She is actively teething and I do give her meds but when I ask if she is in pain she says no. Only once she said that her face hurts exactly where her teeth are erupting.
Yesterday I planned to give her a long catch up nap of 1.5hrs but she WU on her own at 1hr8m and then took 1hr to fall asleep at BT and ended up having a long days agin. Tomight she was up at night for 2.5hrs. I don't know what to do again. Wait it out till she is done teething or cut the nap again? Previously the only way cutting her nap short worked is if she had a nice long nap and caught up on her sleep and then the following day I would cut her nap but now it's dificult to give her a long nap cause it could cause a long NWU plus she wakes up at 7am cause of of the NWU so if she has a long nap her BT will be 9pm
Her EASY on a good day was
WU 6:45
A 6hrs30m (shorter A after a bad/short night)
Nap at 1:20(1hr15m)
WU 2:35 I woke her
A 5.5 hrs
Crib at 7:15
BT 8:00
WU 6:25 (10hra30m night)
A 7hrs but planned for 6hrs45m
Nap at 1:22 (1hr15m)
WU 2:37 I woke her
A 5hrs10m
Crib at 7:15
BT 7:52
WU 6:30 am !!!! 10hrs40m night
The next day was very similar but she took 45m to fall asleep at BT which was 8pm and then up at 5am! It never was the same again.
Thanks in advance
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(((hugs))) you must be going mad with these short nights :(
To be honest I'm not sure what new things to suggest. If I remember correctly, she does ok if you offer a long nap, but after a day or two her nights shorten, and same for if you cap at an hour or more? I do think it's really hard to tell what's going on when she's teething so I'm afraid I'd probably leave it til that's done, but otherwise I think I'd try capping at 30 - 45 minutes or something, and doing an EBT of 7ish, just to see how she goes. I still think your day is too long, but I know that's only cos of the short nights. But you'll have to do something different to break that.
Sorry, I know that's only really an amalgamation of stuff I've suggested before but I'm running out of ideas I'm afraid :( And I think you do need to wait til her teeth are through too :(
Katherine - what do you think? Do you have any other thoughts or shall I see if anyone else can pop in?
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I am going mad and a few good days give me a ray of hope and I start going over my EASY logs trying to figure out yet again and again some kind of a patter. Thanks for support anyways. I guess I'll wait it out and play again with cutting the nap shorter. :)
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Always here with support :-* (even if I am out of ideas!).
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Sorry ladies I've been away for a few days. Ok just a couple of thoughts - and sadly they are completely opposite ones so not necessarily helpful ::) but here goes......either the nap just completely keeps robbing her nights, and she needs a drastic cut, even some NNDs to get a better night, OR she is permanently OT. I have no experience with *really* LSN kids though mine have been on the lower end in general. DD was having some NNDs (maybe 1-2 per week) by this age so it may be worth a try. Looking at your days though I would have said that my DD at least would have been OT on your routine, we got to the point of 6.5-7h pre-nap but would never really have had more than about 4.5h post-nap. I agree that your days are too long right now, I know short nights aren't helping this but an earlier PD for bed might hell. So either - keep the nap as is but try a significantly earlier BT, I'm thinking for around 11-11.5h total A time for the day. Or if she really genuinely won't go down for bed before 5.5h A whatever her nap I think you need a drastic nap cut to shorten your day up.
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Hi Katherine.
She is definitely not really LSN but she is on the lower side. I'm not sure if she is OT but maybe UT/OT. Or the cause of this is teething or developmental (she's been talking a lot lately). Also she doesn't seems ridiculously tired most days (just really really whiny) but she seems to want to play all the time. She doesn't want to go home when we are outside, she doesn't want to stop playing and sit down to eat etc. This makes me think she is not tired.
yesterday i tried cutting her nap to 1hr
WU 6:30 am ( BT ended up being really late)
A (7hrs10m)
crib 12:55
nap at 1:40 ( 1hr)
2:40 WU I woke her
A(planned for 4.5/5hrs but ended up being 5.5)
crib 7:00 ( I hoped she would be asleep 7:30 the latest)
BT 8:10pm !!!
WU 5:40am
So another unsuccessful day and night. Why is she taking so long to fall asleep?
Thanks for your suggestions. I will try them both but i don't think she will fall asleep earlier then 5/5hrs15m after 1hr15m nap
P.S. With regards to NNDs I'm afraid of offering that because during 2-1 once we tried that she started to refuse the 2nd nap every day but couldn't handle the whole day on 1 nap
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Personally I think she has got a bit of an UT/OT thing going on, with the OT caused by the long days, which are in turn caused by the long nap. She's about 25 months now? Lily has always been only slightly LSN (she currently averages around 10.5 - 10.75hrs sleep and the average for a 5 yr old is 11hrs, for example). She was only sleeping 30 - 45 minutes at this age, with some NNDS too. Her BT was earlier though.
She used to take a long time to settle for naps and BT too if she was UT, so by this age I set WU time from her nap at 2pm. I'd put her down at 1 every day and if she was tired she'd fall asleep earlier and get a longer nap. If she wasn't she'd fall asleep later and get a shorter nap. It was a way she could self regulate. Might be something else to try if you are nervous about cutting her nap too much? I think BT for lily was around 7.15 at this age, asleep by 7.30, which gave her around a 13 hour day. By 27 / 28 months her nap had gone so her day obvious shortened again.
I agree btw that teething / development could easily be the cause as much as any of the above! You can only try things out, and if they don't work, then try them again once the teething etc., has finished. One thing to be aware of is that both my LOs had an A time leap when they turned two, so that could be part of it too.
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LovelyLilyandJack, yes she is just over 25 months.
Thanks for all the valuable advice and Katherine as well! All of it makes complete sense. I will try cutting her nap shorter. Only she is not very good at catching up with an EBT and I'm afraid of getting her OT or more OT. Usually EBT just makes an even earlier WU. A long nap worked better to catch her up but lately even that is not working. Ideally she would need to take an early nap to make it a long one and to let her still have a long enough A before BT while still keeping the day short (13/13.5hrs top). But she is not falling asleep early.
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Let us know how you get on :)
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Good luck xx
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We had an 11hr night last night!!!!!! Wow
The day looked like this
WU 6:05 wich some stirring from 4:30-5am
Crib 12:15 ( after I woke her up I realized that she pooped so it could be the reason she took so long to fall asleep)
S 1:15 (1hr I decided to give 1hr nap another chance)
WU 2:15 I woke her
Crib 6:15
BT 7/7:10 pm
WU 6:00!!!!!! I'm so happy you don't even know. She only had a handful of 11hr nights.
I'm trying to give her a simillar day today but she is acting hyper before nap (got her in the crib at 12:50 to have her asleep at 1:15 the latest so we will see when she falls asleep). I also wonder if 1hr nap became a catch up nap or not and maybe she does need a 45m nap on daily basis. Or if the 11hr night was just a complete fluke all together. Gosh I'm aftaid to screw this up.
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She is still up and it's 1:40 pm so she's been chatting in her crib for almost 1 he again. I don't know what to do with her nap. She was tired before the nap, had a little meltdown and I was thinking maybe that maybe I should've giving her 6hrs45m A instead of 7.
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By this age I gave up on the nap and got DD up after 45 mins-1h if she hadn't gone off. Can you AP a quick catnap in the car or something later on?
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I wish but she won't nap anywhere but her crib. She is too used to the darkness of her room, white noise and crib. That's why travelling is very difficult with her. She will only pass out in the stroller from a complete exhaustion if she didn't sleep half of the night for example.
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Hugs, I do get it. DD was very similar - however it seemed that nap transitions were the time she broke her 'golden rules' lol! (Btw I do think some of your troubles are likely 1-0....) So I would try getting her up, playing for a bit and then following sleep cues if you see any for another try in bed. If it's a no-go, then what's to be lost by trying a quick drive? If she's not going to nap in bed anyway it won't do any harm and she may just surprise you with a doze. If she does I'd wake after a short CN of 20 mins or so and then maybe 6.30/7pm BT. If not, then it's going to have to be a NND and I would be brave and try a 5.30/6pm BT xx
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Oh Gosh 5:30/6pm BT, I'm scared.
But yes you are right, it won't hurt to try! Did you LO start to sleep 12hrs at night when NND happened. Or let's say after completely dropping the nap? I'm just not sure how long their nights supposed to be when they drop the nap..
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Yes 12h when nap dropping, still does 11.5 +/- 30 mins now a year later on xx
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Thanks, let's hope today goes good for us.
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Darn she pooped again. I didn't think that poopy diaper would happen two days in a row at nap time. I don't believe it.
What do you think I should do with her nap tomorrow after NND? Thanks
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If you get a NND today I would continue to offer nap at your usual time tomorrow, she will probably go for it as she will be very tired. So usual A time/clock time whatever you would do normally xx
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Ok thanks so much again for quick replies :)
P.S. Just checked her mouth and it looks like 2 cusps of her molar cut through the gum, probably that's why the poop.
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Sorry, only just caught up. What did you do and how did it go? X
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No problem!
She refused the nap completely and definitely was OT. After trying in the crib and in the car she had a quick dinner, 5:30 crib and asleep at 6:10. Then she WU at around 12:25 pm (maybe earlier but she was so quiet that I barely heard her on the monitor) and stayed up for whole 3hrs!! Painful 3 hrs. I gave her meds when she WU but I'm guessing pain wasn't the problem. Then up for the day at 6:50am.
I know Katherine you said to offer a usual day after a NND but do you still think I should give her a 1hr nap considering she was up so long at night? BT? What do you ladies think? Plus I would have to offer her the nap at 1pm but that's only 6hrs of A so even though she had a bad night I'm not sure if she will take it.
Thanks
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Oh no, poor you :( I think I would offer the nap at the normal time, and I'd probably cap it too and offer a slightly EBT instead, but jack handles OT well, so that might not suit your LO. It's just that I'd take it as an opportunity to see how she behaved when I knew she was tired - whether she went to sleep quicker at BT for example. Otherwise you're always compensating for her and not giving her the chance to self regulate. But like I said, I'm mean like that cos I know jack handles OT well and just sleeps it off. The reduced A times and day length would be enough for him. If your LO doesn't handle OT well, then you might want to offer an uncapped nap, which is what many LOs need after a NND.
Sorry, not loads of help, I know. Katherine - I don't know if you'll see this today but what do you think? (seeing as I barged in on a question for you, lol!)
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Last night before BT she was tired and a bit crazy. She took 40m to fall asleep so that's about how long it takes her lately, sometimes it takes her 1ht to fall asleep. If she falls asleep in 30m I consider it a good time.
With regards to today's nap I would like to give her a long nap to catch up only if I let her sleep as long as she wants it will probably be closer to 1hr45m/2hrs nap although I haven't done that in a long time so I'm not 100% sure. Another thing is she might need a later BT if I give her an uncapped nap so I'm thinking I might need to cap it at some point. Thanks for suggestions though I know it's difficult because every LO is so different.
Also I would assume that this NWU was OT but it didn't differ much from an UT NWU. It was 30m longer and it was less chatty but no crying or whining she just was laying there quietly curling her hair and letting out random high pitched words. Confusing
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For DD I wod just have done normal nap and capped at whatever I usually capped at. Catch up naps always backfired spectacularly here, it was better to cut the nap short and use EBT if needed. I think your DD may well go down at 1pm or even earlier tbh, after a NND DD would sometimes be happy to go down as early as 4.5-5h :o
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So yesterday we did 1hr10ish nap( I wu her at 1hr but she couldn't get up).
But again we had a horrible night. First she was up at 8:45pm because of a heavy rain and thunder. We are on the top floor and we have slanted windows in our bedrooms so when it rains it is very loud. She never was bothered by it before but tonight she was screaming and crying and was really scared.
After a few cuddles and WI/WOs she was back asleep at around 10pm. But at 2:40am she was up again screaming. I ran in and she was saying that her bunny fell although she had him in her hands. Another dream about losing her bunny. She fell back asleep at 4:45am and was up for the day at around 6:45am.
Gosh she becoming more and more aware of her surroundings and noises around her. Now she is really OT I think. I have a feeling she needs a longer nap to catch up but the trick is to cap it at the right time and not overdo it
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They're changing fast at this age, aren't they?! It takes a while to figure out how best to balance a NND - partly cos they only come round every now and again! If that didn't work you can always try something else next time :)
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yes too fast, so much changing with her right now, she is like a real human being that talks a lot and understands so much more now.
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Hi ladies. We are in trouble.... Still but there is more to it now then it was previously. For the past few days DD was awaken by the sound of heavy rain and thunderstorm. We live on the top floor and we have slanted windows so when it rains it is loud. She never was bothered by this before but I'm guessing now that she is older she is more aware of her surroundings. She notices every noise in our place and asks " what's that noise". I always tell her it's our neighbours or something like that. It's been raining almost every night here for the past little while and she's been awaken because of that every time. She screams for me and is very afraid. I sit with her in a rocking chair to help her calm down for a bit but after I lay her in her crib she takes anywhere from 2-3hrs to fall back asleep. Tonight she woke up on her own I think from OT and was ok for about 1hr but then heard some noise and called for me. Again I said it must be the neighbours etc and she was fine with it. I left. In a little while she called for me again crying that there is a fly in her room. I didnt think there was a fly otherwise she would've noticed it earlier. Also I didn't want to turn the light on to look for it so o don't get her to excited, plus she sleeps with a mosquito net over her crib. Aside from rain waking her I think she keeps coming up with different things in order to sit with me in a rocking chair. It probably became a prop. I try to keep conversations to a minimum now and tell her she is safe and everything is ok and she needs to go back to sleep.
Because of all this I can't cap her nap anymore because she is just too tired already and I feel I need to give her a longer or uncapped nap to catch up from being awaken by the rain.
We are moving back to Canada in 3 weeks so the problem with the rain waking her because of slanted windows should be solved (although we are going to be staying at my parents for a while and their house is right by a busy street and the traffic gets pretty loud early in the morning :( plus not to mention all other new sounds ) but till then do you have any suggestions on how to handle this? I'm exhausted. And it's not the best timing since I need to pack everything and etc before the move. And the weather channel says that it will be rain and thunderstorm for a while longer :(.
Thanks in advance
P.S. She is still teething but it looks like it the teeth are almost erupted so shouldn't be much longer.
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Oh poor you :( I think I'd try gradual withdrawal to deal with the NWs if she's genuinely scared, or WIWO has worked better for us for monkeying around. It does sound like it starts with genuine fear though.
I'll try and find the relevant links but with lily I used to walk over to her, say a reassuring sleepy phrase, and then sit by her cot (or in your chair if that's what you're already doing), not look at her and not talk. If she got really upset I'd repeat the sleepy phrase without looking at her, and talking in a really boring voice, if you know what I mean?! Then the next night I'd do the same but move slightly further away, til I was at, and then outside the door.
The only trouble is, that'll take a while and may not shorten the nws in the meantime. I don't know what else will though - we used to have 2-3 he nws with Jack and I never found anything to shorten them except WIWO and a serious cut in the amount of day sleep he had, which stopped them altogether.
I understand you not wanting to cap your LOs nap while this is going on. Are you able to make sure she gets a good long A before bed? Our nws come back if J naps too close to BT (he now needs about 6hrs A after a 30 minute nap), so that could be contributing to / lengthening the nws. That's the only other thing I can think of suggesting.
Hopefully in a few weeks time you'll be away from the situation, her teeth will be through, and things will be more stable. Hang on in there!
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Yes she is genuinely scared that's why I felt that I needed to cuddle her.
Last night after she called me for the final time saying that there is a fly in her room, I was very firm with her saying that she is safe etc and told her no more calling and its time to sleep. She started to cry when I was leaving but calmed down within a minute and fall back asleep about 15/20 minutes later(total awake time was 2hrs though). So I think WI/WO is working so far. Thanks for explaining what you do! I tend to forget those things.
So you are suggesting to shorten her nap even more in hopes that even if she wakes at night from fear she will be able to fall asleep much faster? I'm just so scared because tonight it supposed to rain and thunder all night and I'm afraid to give a short nap because I know that she will be up at night. It seems impossible to figure out the nap and A length while she wakes from being scared. It would've been much easier to try and cap her nap if she didnt have fearful NWUs (because I don't know of she is up for so long because UT or scarred) and then see what it leads to and go from there.
I think that after 1hr nap she did about 4hra45m A (if I'm not mistaken) but when I give her 1.5hr nap to catch up she needs closer to 6hrs unless she fell asleep at that A time because her day was already long. I tried puting her to bed earlier thinking if she is really OT she will still need an EBT even after a long nap but usually she just takes a long time to fall asleep.
it does makes sense that you are saying that long nap makes her NWU longer (even if they are from fear) but she needs some way to get her needed sleep and I'm afraid that the only option right now is the nap.
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Personally I feel from what you've said you/she are losing more sleep by giving the longer nap though? Yes she may wake if it rains really loud or thunders (though I would have thought heavy rain would be good white noise no?) but if she is appropriately tired it shouldn't take her hours to go back off. Promoting the most night sleep has to be the better course overall, that's where you're headed once the nap is dropped right? Am guessing you're not going to keep her napping forever in case of thunderstorms ;). I guess though if there's a big move coming up soon maybe just follow your gut for now and reevaluate once the move is done? ((Hugs))
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I know right I would think that it would be nice to sleep to rain white noise but I think what scares her is when the rain changes from light to very heavy. The change in loudness wakes her. To be honest I wake up to from that but I am able to go back to sleep.
Ok I'll try capping it then for few days. I'll be brave :) thanks so much
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Holding your hand. Be brave! :-*
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Thank you
I just have to say this... I think both of you ladies are right. We both are loosing sleep from long nap. Yesterday I felt like I needed to give her a 1.5hr nap but by the time she fell asleep it was too late so I gave her 1hr. She had a 10hrs50m night. She had trouble falling asleep because it was raining and thunder ( we talked about and and thunder a lot before bt) but she managed to fall asleep in 30m! And slept through the night of rain and thunder! I think being able to fall asleep when it rained and thundered was helpful for her to.
Today it looks like is going to be a NND again just like last time after a great night. But I wonder if I would've offered her nap today at a much later time maybe she would've taken it?? She does about 6:45/7hrs of A (6.5 if really tired) so today I planned for about 7hrs15m so she is a bit more time but she is still chatting. Maybe next time I should just offer a nap at 8hrs of A and forget a set nap time.
P.S.Yep NND it is!
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Good luck! Glad you got a good night x
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yeyey another 11hr night after a NND!!!! She took about 1 hr to settle for BT yesterday but was asleep at 6:20pm which made her day 12hrs and slept till 5:25am. But now I'm not sure what to do to bring her BT back to7/7:30-pm? Would you just keep the nap at the same time(around 1/1:15) and keep it 1hr or 45m long? and then 7pm BT?
and I hope she takes the nap today
thanks
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Yay for two good nights! I'd offer a nap, but keep it short. Maybe up to 45 minutes at 1ish? I wouldn't go over 45 minutes (actually personally I'd do 30), cos if you want 11hrs at night you can't afford to give away too much in the day. Actually, this might be a good time to try and reset her body clock and stick with a capped nap at 1ish and BT at 7.15 / 7.30 for a week, no matter what she does. What do you think?
Just for comparison btw, Jack is about 6 weeks older than your LO, from memory, and he's reached the point where any nap takes away from his night now, so I'm not offering naps any more. He's 26.5 months and my daughter stopped at around 27 months I think.
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yes I agree. And I think 45m nap probably is better instead of 30m today just because her day will end up 13.5hrs long at least (if 7pm BT)because of 5:25am WU. But I don't think she will last till 7:15/30pm (that would make her day 14hrs). Last time she did only 4hrs45m of last A after 1hr nap.
TBH I would like to see how she does today and tomorrow first and then set her nap and BT. If she manages to have another 11hr night tonight that would bring her WU till 6am for tomorrow and then I can cap her nap at 30m and make her day 13hrs instead of 13.5hrs so BT would be 7pm.
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Sounds good :) Hope you get a good night tonight.
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Yesterday She was pretty tired before the nap and took 30m to fall asleep which made it 1:30pm. I woke her up at 2:15 but she couldn't open her eyes and wasn't tesponding at all so I left the door open to her room and gave her till 2:30. She didn't even move while I was making noises right by home room. She had really hard time staying up during the last A as well. Rubbing her eyes, yawning, starring into nowhere, she was very irritable. By the time we made it home I was able to get her in the crib at 6pm but she fell asleep at 7pm. She had a very short 40m NWU at 3:55am and then up for the day at 6:15am.
So I guess that after a NND she needs a longer nap? But how long? Where your kids able to do a regular capped nap after a NND? When did they needed a catch up nap and how long was it? Thanks
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To be honest my memory is a little hazy cos J started nnds at about 18 months and with various things like teething and colds since then it feels like we've done a bit of everything! But I did start with offering an uncapped nap after a nnd I think, though J has never napped for long - rarely over 1hr 20 - so I did it knowing we wouldn't get mammoth naps.
You could try an earlier nap after NNDs, so she can nap longer but still have a decent A til bed? Maybe pd at 12.30 so she's asleep by 1, if you think she'll do it? Then let her have up to 1hr 30 if it felt like 1hr wasn't enough. If that gives you a worse night then you'll know to go back to a capped nap next time at least. And I'd only offer one catch up day and then go back to capping...
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I agree I think 1.5hr tops after NND because she might actually have a mammoth nap, like you said lol!
Today she seems in better spirits even after a NWU compared to yesterday's 11hr night that happened after a NND.
Thanks so much!!!
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:-*
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Ladies I need your help ASAP please. DD had a 1hr nap yesterday (thanks DH :) ) and today she is up at 4:15am (BT yesterday was 6:50/55pm). I left her in the crib till 6:30am in hopes that she would fall back asleep but she started calling me and it was obvious that she was up for good. I have no clue what to do with her nap and BT today. I would like to get her till 7pm if possible. Please help!!
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If it were me I would have done normal nap time and length, possibly 15 mins earlier/longer if really struggling but not more. And then EBT if needed. Quickest way to get back on track here was not to over-compensate for a short night and make up lost sleep with nights not nap time x
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I would do an hour at 12.30ish I think. Definitely no more. Were you capping at 45 minutes before yesterday? If so I'd actually do 45 minutes again today and do a slightly EBT (6.45?) if you think she's not coping. If she EW today cos her nap was too long yesterday she probably needs (and can handle) a tougher day today to get her back on track....
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Ha! Posted with Katherine - great minds and all that!
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Thank you thank you thank you ladies. I was thinking the same thing but needed your advice. I'll do that today. :)
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Great we are all on the same page!!! Trust yourself, sounds like your instincts are great :D
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Thanks :)
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Hi we are still having short nights most of the time and sometimes NWUs. Her nap is 45m long most days but she is taking forever to fall asleep for both nap and BT and she is just impossible to wake up after the nap. She just can't open her little eyes. Yesterday I capped at 30m because she took a long time to fall asleep and she still slept only 10hrs20m with some stirring 2 nights in a row in the first part of the night( yesterday she had NWU for 1.5hrs in th second part of the night).She is acting tired and hyper at the same time before nap and BT, like really tired, but every time she tells me she is not tired and doesn't want to sleep and wants to play or read more books. Because of EWUs (5-5:30am)her days become long again( BT usually around 7-7:15). Are we back to OT/UT cycle?
Today she fell asleep pretty quick at nap time (in 15m which is good time for her) although she kept telling me that she is not tired and wanted to read more books. I woke her at 2:00 pm which made her nap 50m long.
P. S. Yey she had 11hr night! Finally. BT was 7:10pm and WU at 6:00am and she kept telling me again that she wasn't tired before bed. Now I know that I can't rely on her knowing if she is tired or not. This makes it even harder. Gosh I feel son bad puting her to sleep when she is asking me to play/read more etc.
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Hi AMJ,
I ve replied to your posts before.
My DD is 2 years 4 months and has had sleep issues for months.
She never has more than 11 hrs of sleep at night- regardless of what we do with routine- she has never slept for 12 hrs at night like a lot of kids do.
She has terrible NWs- 3 hrs easily- when OT and occasionally when she is having developmental leaps.
Only the other day I realised that no matter what I do with her nap- she will not tack on at night.
And like your DD she can be very hard to wake up from nap.
She is starting to refuse nap and then ends up OT on NND with NWs.
So I ve decided to let her have a nap for as long as she wants- usually she will sleep 1 hr 20 min and just accept that her nights will be short until she stops nap completely- even if this takes months.
Because I cannot deal with long NWs anymore. So her sleep just had to be spread over 24 hrs rather than aiming for long nights.
And if I have to put her to bed later on nap days so be it.
Also I think that it's ok for her to have a longish nap on days when she does nap to compensate for when she doesn't.
But solving her sleep issues has been the hardest thing for me.
She is now potty trained and wakes up at night for a wee most nights- which is yet another cause for wakening and then struggling to go back to sleep :(
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Hi Maria yes I remeber you and I remember that out LOs are very similar. For DD though it is much worse having an uncapped nap then capping it. Her behaviour is much worse with a long nap/short night. Also for her I think 2-3hrs NWUs are usually UT and I think 30m-1.5hrs NWUs are OT. But again I might be wrong. ::)
With regards to 12hrs nights- we never ever had those either lol but I'm am still hopeful for 11hr nights. Yesterday she ended up having an 11hr night so that leaves me hopeful. I am pretty sure that it is a matter of finding her "sweet spot" and it is so worth it. This am she is so pleasant and happy that I just can't give up.
I am happy for you that you found what works for you though. It is so exhausting. Thank you for sharing :)
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Yay for the 11hr night! If on balance she's doing better with capping I'd stick with it cos it'll help her regulate at night with nice 11hr nights like that! Are you going to stick with 45 minute naps for a bit then?
P.s. My LO has never done 12hr nights either, though since he's basically stopped napping we do get the very occasional 11hr 45 night. Like, once a month!
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Today, after an 11hr night I put her in the crib at 1:15 instead of 1:00. She was kinda hyper, surprisingly, but fell asleep at 2:00 so I gave her only 30m and will aim for a regular 7pm BT. On the days when she will have short nights I think I will stick with 45m or like you suggested before- crib at 1:00 and she can self regulate but up at 2:00. :)
Wow he is not napping anymore? At this point I completely understand you with regards to wanting him to drop the nap completely. I wish DD would just drop it too so we can have 11+hrs nights! Btw how do you do quiet time? In his room in a dark or with lights on? For how long?
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We get nap resistance starting from the moment I mention a nappy change after lunch (used to be first step in nap preparation), so our quiet time is actually him watching tv :-[ He has fallen asleep in front of the telly once or twice though, so I count it as self regulating still, kind of.... He's not napping really, now, no. He hasn't napped at home since he turned two really. Pretty much every 2-3 days we end up in the car after lunch and he'll often fall asleep if it's after 1 or 2ish, but that's all he gets now. I think he'd be fine with nothing if we never went anywhere.
Sounds like a good plan with your DD. If she starts to shorten her nights again I wouldn't be afraid of capping to 30 minutes either :)
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That's grea, that's exactly what you were waiting for - no nap
Now I'm
Not sure about 30m. After yesterday's 30m she only slept 10hrs15m. Maybe she didn't need a nap at all but she was tired and took it. Who knows, right.
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We get random nights sometimes, and often J catches up the next day or the one after. You might find the same...
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OMG she slept from 7:30pm to 6:55am with some stirring from 12:30-1:00am!! I think this is her first time EVER!!!!! WOW but I have no idea how this happened. HEr day looked like this:
WU 5:30 am
A(8hrs)
Crib 1:00
Nap 1:30 for (45m)
WU 2:15
A(
crib 6:45
BT 7:34
stirring from 12:30-1:00am
WU 6:55am !!! I can't make sense of this? HEr day ended up being 14hrs so I was sure it is not going to be a good night.
Today She was pretty hyper before nap. Originally I thought she will not be ready for nap at 1pm but since she was hyper I put her in the crib at 1:15 and of course she refused the nap.
Would you suggest BT at 7pm or 6:30? I'm not sure cause she WU for the day at 6:55am but then having NND and 7 is being her normal BT maybe 6:30 is better. TIA
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I'd do 6.30 :) what a great night you got!!
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thanks for a quick reply Katherine but she just passed out at 2:25pm. I was going to get her up at 2:30.
I'll give her 20m so till 2:45pm. Do you think 7pm BT is OK? or 7:30?
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I would do 7.30 with a nap at that time.
Yay for the great night btw! I guess that's the capping kicking in. We occasionally get a night like that randomly where jack needs to catch up. That's great she's starting to use overnight sleep to do it too :)
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Thanks LL&J I planned for 7:30 like you said but she got tired much sooner so 7:05 BT.
Oh I sure hope this continues and she keep using the overnight sleep to catch up!
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How was last night?
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Not bad, she was up at 5:30am so 10.5hr night. I wonder if she would have had an 11hr night if she didn't have that 20m nap yesterday. Thanks for asking
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Could be worse :) up at 5ish here today - ugh! Hope you have a good one x
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That's right, I'll take 10.5hr night!
And I feel you pain, 5am WUs are no fun :(
You have a great day too
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Yep, we had a 1hr NW last night, and then Jack was up every hour afterwards... I'm very very tired today - it was like having a newborn. All because we let him have a long catch up nap yesterday cos he was ill. Obviously he didn't need it as much as we thought. Not doing that again!
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Oh no, sorry to hear that. I hope J gets better and you both have a good day and some rest tonight!
We also had a NWU today although I'm not sure when she woke up. I heard her lovey making a noise just after 12 and then she was laying very quiet and back to sleep at 12:30. If not for the lovey (it has a little chime noise to it) I wouldn't even know that she was awake. She also is back to taking longer to fall asleep at BT (it's been 7:30 instead of 7pm lately with a 45m nap) so I think I'll try a 30m nap today.
P. S. I just realized that the name of my post is " Quick question about nap length" and my post is 15 pages long.... Haha
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Hey AMJ
We're also capping at 30 mins these days otherwise K's not going to bed until 9pm and only sleeps 10hrs with a NW.
Seems to have stopped since capping further and she seems to be self regulating more. Some days she might only have 10hr 45 ons and then sat night she pulled a 12.5hr night!!!! Couldn't believe it, that hasn't happened since she was tiny!
I'm hoping for a steady 11hr night once we drop the nap...
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Nice Lauren I'm glad you found what works for your LO! What does your day look like? What time is the nap and BT?
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P.S. Darn her nights are slowly getting shorter again. After few days of 45m nap the nights got to 10hr15m. Yesterday I gave her 30m nap and she had a 10hr night. Today she is just a mess. I was sure 30m nap would give us close to 11hr night :(
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Dear ladies. We are back in Canada now and it seems that DD is getting adjusted to this time zone pretty well. No more NWUs. But the nights are still short and I don't seem to be able to lengthen them with a 45m/30m or even 20m nap. Originally I wanted to have her got to sleep at 8pm therefor her nap should've been around 2/2:30. But she keeps waking up at 5:30am so it's just not happening. How does she know it's 5:30???? It seems that doesn't matter were in the world we are she wakes up at 5/5:30am ???
It seems that she likes longer morning A (at least 7.5hrs)and shorter evening A but I'm not exactly sure how long. I think that with a 45m nap she used to do 4hrs45m-5hrs/5hrs10m.
Yesterday her day looked like this
5:23 am WU
A(8hrs45m)
2:05 pm S(45m)
2:50 pm WU
A(4.5)
7:23 pm BT
5:23 am WU
What would you do here? She is also so excited to see her family that she just wants to play all the time and doesn't want to nap. But I'm afraid to give a NND because her Bt would be to be at 5:30 pm since she is up at 5:30am and that's very early. Would you bring her nap back to 1/1:30 and do 7pm BT? Gosh I just want her to drop this nap
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I think you need to do some NNDs I'm afraid. If you don't think a 5.30 BT will work then I'd just do a normal BT but about 20 minutes earlier than usual. I know that probably sounds scary, but I found that J wouldn't tack on (partly cos he only needs 11hrs 15 sleep in 24 hrs so we were never going to get a 12hr day/night) so that's what we did and it worked out fine. He handles OT very well though... But basically that will wipe her out, then next day she can nap (I'd still only allow around 30-45 minutes though), and use it as a catch up day, and hopefully still sleep well the second night cos she'll be catching up from her NND. That worked for us for ages. We did have some very long NNDs after 5.30am WUs, which I know is against usual advice, but if you can't do 5.30 BT / you don't think it'll work then it's another option. It wouldn't be a long term thing either - just the odd day to try and get some later WUs and therefore shorter days.
What do you think? Too radical?!
ETA: I was just thinking about how long you've had these short nights and I wonder if it's cos she needs much more of a push than she's had so far? I wonder if doing something extreme might actually be the way to go, cos you might discover it suits her better.
P.s If you want to continue down the nap route - by the time J needed 7.5hrs morning A , he needed about 5.5hrs after a 30 minute nap and we'd still only get a 10 - 10.5hr night. Some nights he'd take longer to settle (unheard of here - he's usually asleep within 5 minutes), and he'd do 6hrs after a 30 minute nap. Just to give you an idea of where your LO might be at.... When we got to that point, we'd AP a nap at 1/ 1.30pm (after a WU of 6ish usually) and do BT at 7.30.
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thanks LL&J yes it is a extreme change but you might be right. TBH we didn't try 30m and 20m for long enough probably just some random days when she took long time to fall asleep at nap and we couldn't fit a longer nap in. She seems tired after about max 5hrs of evenig A that's why i'm afraid to try a longer A but on the other hand her tired signs have always confused me. She might be just OT from being UT. But thank you for suggestions and we will be trying for another NND!
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Good luck! You could always move her nap a bit earlier (to 1ish again) and let her lead it. If she's tired earlier, she'll nap, if not then she won't :) Though having said that we did have to force NNDs at first cos J would always nap ok, but then EW the next day. But I think your LO will refuse a nap on less morning A time if she's not tired, won't she?
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Yes she might refused it Ithe nap is too early but she might just take a long time to fall asleep.
Darn yesterday she had a 9hrs morning A then 3 then 4hrs A and BT at 7. Today is up at 5 so now it's even harder to do a NND. I'll try tomorrow, hopefully she'll have a better WU
Thanks
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Hi yesterday I was brave and did NND. She was up at 5:40 am so I thought "this was the best WU in a while so I should do it today." For BT she fell asleep in 10m! (BT 5:40/45pm)Last time she fell asleep so fast was probably a year ago. And I heard her at 5:25am ( although I have a feeling she WU earlier and was laying queitly). But she slept from 5:40/45 to 5:25ish!!!! That's amazing!!!!!
Today I'm gonna try for a nap but I'm not sure how long to give her. I know you said 30-45m but few weeks ago I tried for 45-1hr and she was barely making it to BT after that. So I'm debating if I should give a longer nap or not since it was few weeks back so by now she might need less. I think last time we decided to give a 1.5hr nap after a NND. I just can't decide what to do. What do you think?
Anyways thanks for you advice LL&J!!!! How often should I offer NNDs? Every other day, every 2 days? And didU/do you kids sleep about 11hrs at night after a nap day?
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We had a NND yesterday too and because of the decent night she had all I allowed was 20mins at about 1.45. If we'd stayed at home she'd have gone for another NND I think but she had to go in the car and it's a guarantee she'll fall asleep in there.
I would try 30mins after a NND and see how she goes. Although probably too late for today now? How'd it go?
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Hi Lauren, it was too late but thanks anyways! Gives me an idea for next time. Although I think your DD is more LSN then my DD since yours can handle 2 NNDs in a row. My DD was pretty tired all morning even after an amazing night. I gave her from 1:00/05 to 2:25. She fell asleep for BT at 7:50 and now I'm scrated that it was too long of a nap and she will either have a NWU or an EWU. Not sure what to do with her day tomorrow either.
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How did you get on? I would probably stick with a shorter nap after a NND, but seeing as you're at the start of the 1-0 it'lll take a bit of trial and error I expect. It sounds like she handled the NND really well though :) If you're doing NNDs more often you can experiment a bit with nap lengthen the following day. If you had a short night after that long nap, that probably says that you need to try something shorter as a recovery nap next time. If she had a long night after that long nap then probably you got it spot on :) We started off doing uncapped naps after NNDs but J will only sleep up to 11.5hrs in 24, so it wasn't long before the naps were taking away from the nights and leaving him more OT overall.
WRT how often to do a NND, I'd move your nap a bit earlier and let her lead the way if you can. If she's not tired, then she won't nap, so you get a NND. If she is, then she'll nap earlier and you get a nap day. Having said that, J needed more direction as he'd EW if he napped too early or too late, so we ended up with a really small nap window which he would more often than not nap in, and then take ages to setttle at night / EW. So with him I started off with a NND every 2-3 days and increased to every other day, then every 2 days etc., until naps started giving less sleep overall in 24 hours, at which point I stopped offering a nap cold turkey. Basically, as soon as he started taking longer to settle at BT, or doing a shorter night following a nap day I increased the frequency of NNDs so we were maintaining 11hr nights as a minimum. Does that make sense?!
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Thanks for explaining everything! It all makes complete sense.
DD had only a 9hr night after a NND With a WU at 5am so I know that 1hr20m nap was way too long. Next time ill try 1hr and then 45m. The only thing now I can't really give another NND today cause 5am WU means she would need a 5pm BT and that's way too early. now I need to try and bring her WU closer to 5:45/6:00am cause she only can handle 12hrs of A on a NND.
Thank you!
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Yes, 5am is a very early start for a NND! Hopefully if you go back to shorter naps again you'll get a more reasonable WU again. Definitely worth keeping those NNDs coming I reckon :)
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Thank you!
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Hi ladies
Need you help ASAP.
DD has a NND yesterday from 5:45am WU and 5:53 pm BT. At 3:50am she woke up crying our "mommy" but as soon as she was awake she wasn't crying.( she had her 10hrs of sleep so it's just too bad it happened when she got most of her sleep).She WU crying for me a day ago but that was after a nap day( bad dream?). So today I have no clue what to do with her day????? 3:50am start!!!!!!! We had 4am WUs during 2-3 transition and believe me it's not fun. HELP when to offer a nap, for how long and when BT?
We still didn't figure out the length of a nap that she needs after a NND. Last time I gave her 50m after a NND but she was quiet tired after it so I'm not sure if it was too short or too long. That night she had a 1hr40m NWU but again I'm not sure if it was just because of a bad dream or something else like OT or UT.
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Yowsers, I'm sorry hun, that is early. I have to ask...what do you do when she wakes that early? Do you try to resettle? At least keep her in her room until an acceptable WU time? Do you have a gro clock, I'd strongly suggest one if not. I honestly wouldn't know what to do with the day, play it by ear is all I can say really as she will likely be seriously tired :(
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I keep her in the crib till at least 5:30/6am. Resettling never works so I go in to check if she has a leaky/poopy diaper etc, tell her it's night time and she needs to go back to sleep, and sing a sleepy song. I did that twice today. Then she called me at 5:10 and I did the same thing. Since we recently moved and are staying at my parent's for a visit I still didn't unpack her gro clock. I should do that thanks for the reminder.
Would you offer an uncapped nap? But it could be 2+hrs
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Hello, sorry for the late reply - I've been away for a few days without access to the Internet. What did you do in the end? How are things now?
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Hi LL&J no worries.
I ended up giving her an uncapped nap and she slept for 1.5hrs and then she had a short night.
For the past 3 days I gave her a 30m nap and she had 10.5hrs nights. I tried waking her at 20m but she was in such a deep sleep that even the noise of cartoons and me rubbing her head and face didn't wake her. She woke up at 30m from the noise. She keeps waking consistently at 5:30am the latest so it's had to keep a 7pm BT. I'll try to wake her at 20m today again but then probably will try to give a 6:30 BT so her day is max 13hrs long. Any ideas on how to wake at from a deep sleep at 20m?
Gosh I just wish I could move her BT to 7/7:30pm and WU to 6/6:30am
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The only way I've had luck waking at 20 minutes is from a car nap where J doesn't seem to sleep as deeply (and I know exactly when he went to sleep), or by waking a few minutes before 20 minutes to catch him before he heads into a deep sleep.
What do you think about trying a NND, even with an early start? We've had a few NNDs from a 5.30am start now (had one today in fact). Jack has always handled them OK, and makes it to a slightly EBT, albeit being a bit touchy / grumpy during bathtime. It often works as a means of resetting him, and it sounds like your LO needs some more NNDs but you aren't getting a late enough WU for them to happen naturally...?
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She won't nap in the car (weird, right!?) but waking few minutes earlier then 20m might work. Thanks.
With regards to NND I've tried giving them every other day, every 2-3 days but for some reason she was a mess at the end of the day and next day, and we had that 3:50am WU. I'm not sure why NNDs worked before and lately they don't but maybe it's because I can't get the right nap length after NND or maybe she is OS from being around so many family memebers and seeing so many new things. I will definitely give them another try.
Also a month ago or even longer she had a NND and stayed up for either 12.5 or 13hrs long and after had a short night. After that I'm trying to keep her NND 12hr long. But now that she is older maybe she could do it? Tbh she is not handling OT very well and doesn't tack on ::)
Thanks we will give NND another try
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P.S. Yesterday I managed to wake her at 20m but she only slept for 10hrs the following night where with a 30m nap she slept for 10.5hrs, go figure
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Hmm.... It's hard to know what to suggest - it is strange that NNDs aren't working now. Unless that really early waking was a one off thing? I can understand why you might be nervous to try it again, though I can't think what else to try. Could the EWs be because you're away? We've just had a run of short nights cos we were away (he always EWs when we're away), and then J got OT from them, then UT cos I let him nap one day, which all prolonged it.
Also... Seeing as you're properly into the 1-0 now, I wonder whether you might be better off starting a new thread specifically about 1-0 help? I'm happy to continue to support you, but you might get more people chipping in with ideas than on here, cos people won't read a 17 page thread, or know we're talking about the 1-0 now from the title. I only have one way to deal with the 1-0 and that's to keep the NNDS going at a steady rate, even after a short night if need be, and only to offer a very capped nap if I see J really needs it. I don't know if you ever moved her nap earlier but I'd do that too, and let her self regulate by refusing it every now and again. But J handles OT extremely well and others will have other things to try for LOs who don't so well.
What do you think? As I said, I'm happy to continue to support you - I just feel like I'm giving the same advice over and over and if it's not working then perhaps it's worth seeing if anyone else has anything to try?
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I'm in kind of the same place really, very very happy to support you :-* but I did the same with J and the 1-0, just set BT, kept up the NNDs and threw in a 20 minute CN here and there if she was struggling.
My only other thought.....and please do ignore me if I'm completely wrong.......is just I have a niggling question about whether there is something other than routine encouraging those EWs :-\ I mean, 10h in my mind is not sufficient night time sleep. Always 10-10.5h was OT here. There's no way either of mine would ever have stayed up from 3.30am without resettling, even if they had slept 10h already by that point. I mean their body clocks just wouldn't have allowed it yk? Do you think her short nights are habitual? Is there anything, anything at all that you can think of that might be encouraging her to wake/stay awake? I'm wondering if even the small amount of interaction you have with her when you go in is enough to make her wake and look for you rather than just going back off??
Do you wait until she really needs you? What if you do silent WIWO, or at least just one key sleep phrase and straight back out? No checking the diaper, that could be really stimulating. Cover her in barrier cream before bed if that's a worry for you. I'd cut the song too, songs are for bedtime not for NWs. And have you got the gro clock out yet?
(((Hugs))), I know this has gone on a long long time x
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LL&J, EWUs could possibly be due to us being in a new place with so many family members around and so much fun stuff to see and do. We are not sure yet how long we will be staying at my moms but after that we will be moving to another province for good. Until then I hope she gets more used to all this chaos.
With regards to moving Her nap earlier, I don't really understand how that would be helpful, sorry.If she does fall asleep early for a nap that means that she will wake up early too and then that would make her last A longer then usuall so I would either have to give her an EBT(wich will shift her day even earlier) or she will get OT.
Katherine, it is very possible that her short nights are habitual. She's been having 10hr long nights almost every night since she was a baby. 10.5hrs nights are considered amazing here! With regards to me going in to her when she wakes,I only go in if its a NWU not an EWU usually unless she calls. This started few months back when she would wake up at night and poop at night but wouldn't call for me so I would wait for her to fall back asleep but she wouldn't. Then when I would eventually go in she would have a poopy diaper. So now I go in and check her diaper by just smelling it not taking it off. Or she was teething and I would go in to give her meds. Before that I never used to go in until she cried for me and she would still take a very long time to fall back asleep. Now it does seem that she calls for me right away during NWU or soon after she wakes if she wakes up crying. Then she might call again to ask for water. For the past 2 nights she's been waking with a cry in the middle of the night( once because she lost her bunny in the crib and the other time I don't remember why she called me cause I was half asleep, but she did). She ended up staying up for 2hrs one night and 1hr20m ish last night. Please tell me what should I say/ask when she calls me during NWU/EWU (not so much EWU, she usually stays in bed until I get her but sometimes she does call for me but it's very close to the time I get her up anyways)When I try to leave the room at NWU, I don't sing our song to her- she asks me to sing it to her by crying/whining. So I feel like if I don't it will take longer for her to calm down. The song is very short, maybe 30 seconds during NWU, for BT I sing it few times over and over so it might take 1.5 minutes. What would you suggest I say to her when she asks me to sing to her during NWU?
Another thing what might be waking her is the traffic noise in the early morning hour. We are by a busy road and at 4/4:30 the cars and trucks get very loud plus there is a busy intersection right by mom's house. I'm not 100% sure that that's what waking her but it could be since she always asks me" what's that noise and what's that noise, and I don't like it because it's too loud." She has a white noise on max in her room and two small fans going but the fans are made pretty quiet nowadays. But she used to EWU before we got to mom's house too.
LL&J and Katherine, I will start a new post then. Thanks so much for both of your wonderful help!
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((Hugs)), I really hope someone has some insight for you, it is very draining to be up so early for so long.
I guess you have to trust your instincts on the NWs. I would say if you feel she settles quicker with the song and that doesn't increase the number of wakings or prolong them, then go with it.
Good luck and still here with support whenever you need it xx
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Yes, good luck from me too. I'll keep an eye on Sleeping for Toddlers for your new post to see if there's anything I can add to what the others are saying :)
X
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Thank you :)