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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: *foxy* on January 09, 2015, 20:54:08 pm

Title: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 09, 2015, 20:54:08 pm
Hi

DS is 7mo. Has MPI and EBF so both of us are df. Taking weaning slowly as not sure what's going to upset his tummy. Atm things seem fine it that area - normal poos!

His routine is:

Awake 6.15-6.30 bf
Breakfast 7.30
Nap 9.15 (after school run)
Awake 10.30-10.45 bf
Lunch 12
Nap 1/1.15
Awake 2.30/2.45 bf
Tea 4.30
Try for a CN at 5 doesn't always happen but at least have some quiet time for half an hour
BT 7 bf

My problem is is he only has those good naps bc Im with him! He'll wake after 30-40mins, sometimes 20 and he'll need a cuddle or to suck my finger to go back to sleep. I'm working on getting him to independently sleep - he used to feed to sleep last week but I've stopped that now. Now he has a cuddle until drowsy, put in cot/bed and I pop his thumb in his mouth. This is quite new so it doesn't always work but it's getting better. I'm trying to put him in his cot more awake but it's going slowly.

At night he'll wake about 3-4 times between 7 and 10. And then after that about every 1.5 hours. He just doesn't seem to ever properly go into a deep sleep. Is he very OT maybe? Or just very dependent on me? He's very cuddly, loves contact and social interaction.

I'm not sure how to fix this. Even if he woke twice in the night - that would be great!!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 10, 2015, 18:05:27 pm
Hi there, I think it may be a combination of prop and a UT/OT loop.  At 7mo, I would expect him to have an A time of around 3hr, maybe a touch more. He's sort of doing that in the morning, but maybe not always and even with your help the nap is not always a full one (naps of 1h15min are often UT at this age). His second A time is also short at not quite 3hr. So, as you're working on independent sleep, I'd start pushing those A times out to 3hr and just get rid of the CN (he can still have a rest if you think he needs it, but hopefully with the longer As and more restorative naps he'll manage better in the early evening).

How do you settle him at night? How many times are you feeding?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: Ima shel Alon on January 10, 2015, 18:06:44 pm
It sounds to me like UT actually and not OT. His A times are just too short for his age.
In the morning you don't even get a full 1.5h nap out of him and before his second nap he is doing 2.5h A time, which would be suitable more for a 5m old, not a 7m old.
I would work on gradually increasing A times. The first A time needs just like 10min more for now to see if that helps. The second A time I would increase by 10-15min every 3-4 days till you are at at least 3h A time.

NW are often connected to the first A time of the day (don't ask me why) so I think the frequent NW might be connected to the shortish A time he has in the morning.

Because of the big change you did transitioning from BF to sleep to not I think it's ok you are with him but you should start and work in the next few days and leave him to fall asleep by himself and as well to stay asleep. If he refuses the nap, wakes up too early from a nap or wakes up at night you can use PU/PD for that.

LOL, posted with Katie :D
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 10, 2015, 19:09:55 pm
Ok great. Thanks. The school runs are tricky to work around - not the first one but the pick up at 3.15. We have to leave at 3. I did a 3 hour A time today and he did a 1.5 hour first nap. Did another 3 hour A time after that and he did an hour on his own. Hes had a 20 CN also.

So if I do a nap at 9.30am - hopefully with a 1.5 hr nap time, then up for 3 hours. I can only squeeze in a 1 hour (2-3pm) nap before needing to pick up my dd from school. Would I then need a CN later on?

At night I try to settle him in his cot, if that doesn't work I pick him up until he's calm then put him back in his cot and help him find his thumb - stroke his back until asleep. If he's still not settling then I feed him. I do co-sleep with him as he wakes so often. I can feed him maybe 5 a night sometimes.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 11, 2015, 07:27:05 am
Oh, that darn school run! I've BTDT! :P Yes, you may have to try for a short (15-20min) CN to get through to BT, or pull BT earlier. What's your mode of transportation? Any chance he would drop back off to sleep on the way?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 11, 2015, 09:06:54 am
I know! It's so hard trying to organise things around it! I walk if the weather lets me. He won't go back to sleep in his pushchair once he's awake Im afraid.

He was up at 6 today so nap is at 9 - he was ready for it
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 11, 2015, 18:55:46 pm
If he's napping 2-3 and I'm having to wake him for the school run - he needs a CN doesn't he? 20 mins? Or at least some quiet time? As BT is usually 7pm so 3-7 is quite a long A time before bed don't you think?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: goldmom on January 11, 2015, 19:10:48 pm
3-7 is a pretty typical stretch for my LO before bed, though occasionally I do bring it to 6:45 (or on the rare occasion of two terrible naps it'll be 6:30). The cn is usually refused by my LO.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on January 11, 2015, 19:58:31 pm
I think 3 naps can really backfire at this age, even if they are not perfect naps, unless your LO is HSN.

Obviously it can be really hard to know if they are low or high SN when they are rubbish sleepers though  :-\.

You certainly have some dependence issues though  :-* :-*. Obviously  ;). I know it hasn't been an easy one for you, and it was nice to see your post as I was wondering how you were a few days ago  :-*.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: weaver on January 11, 2015, 20:01:33 pm
I think 3 naps can really backfire at this age, even if they are not perfect naps, unless your LO is HSN.
Totally agree.  I would shoot for an EBT if you need to rather than a CN, maybe 6.30 ish.

Glad to hear about the normal poos!  ;)
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 11, 2015, 22:10:19 pm
Thank you for thinking of me Liz :)  went off the radar whilst trying to get to the bottom of why he was so unsettled. Think we know now for sure but weaning is a bit of a minefield.

Yes. Definite dependence issues. I guess I'd like to know how to a) help him take a good nap without me and b) help him to not rely on a feed or cuddling to sleep during the night.

I'll aim for 2 good naps in the day then. Would you start with trying for better sleep during the day or the night? In terms of him being more independent?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 12, 2015, 21:53:17 pm
I'll aim for 2 good naps in the day then. Would you start with trying for better sleep during the day or the night? In terms of him being more independent?
I think it's always easiest to start with daytime, as you're already awake and have a bit more patience. ;) Plus, if you get him independent during the day, some of that may follow through to the nights (although my experience is that at this age, you'll probably have to do some work overnight too, but hopefully it will be easier if he's used to you settling from the daytime).

I guess I'd like to know how to a) help him take a good nap without me and b) help him to not rely on a feed or cuddling to sleep during the night.
I think what you're doing is a good start. Now, like Noa mentioned earlier, you need to work on reducing your help a bit and getting out of the room. So, try to put him down before he's fully calm and get him to settle more in the crib on his own, etc etc. Have you read the PUPD guidelines? How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 13, 2015, 07:44:43 am
Thanks Katie. I'll work on independent sleep during the day. If he wake a early say 30-40 mins in, I'll try the same as I did for getting him to sleep but what if that doesn't work? Do I get him up and then try another nap say 2 hours later?

He was up at 5.30am this morning :( managed to keep him very quiet until 6.10.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 13, 2015, 20:55:45 pm
If he wake a early say 30-40 mins in, I'll try the same as I did for getting him to sleep but what if that doesn't work? Do I get him up and then try another nap say 2 hours later? 
Yes, try to resettle for about 15-20min... usually you can tell if it's going to work in that time frame. The A time after a short nap depends on the baby. I'd start with 2hr as a minimum, but it may be closer to 2.5. It takes a bit of guesswork, but hopefully you won't have to do that too much!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 14, 2015, 10:36:00 am
Thanks Katie. He's had a 3 hour A time this morning. Followed by a 1 hour nap - no intervention from me :) tried resettling but he was wide awake and having none of it. I'll just see how it goes for his second nap I guess?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 14, 2015, 14:14:14 pm
Did a 3 hour A time as he seemed fine. But he only took a 30 min nap! Wide awake again. Do I try for a little CN later?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 14, 2015, 17:16:46 pm
Great he made it an hr on his own, that's progress! I've always struggled to resettle after a nap that length. As for a CN, I would probably try. As was mentioned earlier, 3 naps can often backfire at this age, but until you know for sure I think it's worth a shot. Two out of my three would've done better with a CN than without.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 17, 2015, 05:34:05 am
Hi

How do I stop feeding during the night? He's waking so often and will only settle with a feed. Im so tired that I let him but I really want to stop as I go back to work in a few weeks and won't cope on this little sleep!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 17, 2015, 16:07:32 pm
His sleep has gone really wonky. He had a 1 hour nap in the morning yesterday and then only 40 mins in the afternoon, no CN. Last night was awful! Only breastfeeding would settle him. I lost count how many times he woke up. Then he was up at 5.30am. This morning he napped 8.20-8.40. Woke up really upset and I couldn't resettle him no matter what I tried. He remained upset for another 20 mins or so once downstairs. OH got him to sleep from 11.30-12.30. He looks exhausted. This afternoon I really struggled to get him to sleep. Had to walk around playing white noise on my phone before he'd settle. He's very unsettled for his nap - just wants boob.

I'm wondering if it's teething or he's not very well?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 17, 2015, 17:56:34 pm
I'm wondering if it's teething or he's not very well?
Yes, my guess would be discomfort. There's a chance it could be some regression, as you've recently started ST, but the waking constantly at night and the 20min nap sounds like discomfort to me. Have you tried meds to see if they help?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 17, 2015, 19:39:08 pm
Yes, we've given him calpol. Not sure if it's helped or not really. It definitely feels like regression - our new routine isn't working but the old one is. He's hard to settle. But he's clingy and tearful when awake so Im thinking discomfort too. Nappies seem ok so I don't think it's his tummy. Do I just get through this, go back to the old routine and hope it doesn't last long?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 19, 2015, 00:15:17 am
Well, if it's regression from the ST, you want to stay as consistent as possible. If it's discomfort, then you want to do what works best within reason. We were thinking that some of your issues were down to routine, so going back to the old one may not really solve things. :-\ But, you don't really want him miserable either, so yes you might just need to do what you can routine-wise, still trying to settle him on his own as gently as possible and crossing your fingers it passes reasonably quick. (((Hugs))), I know it's frustrating. :(
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: Edesanja on January 19, 2015, 05:09:19 am
Hi Kate, just a thought... he doesn't have any signs of sleep apnoea??
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 19, 2015, 12:42:05 pm
Hi

He's poorly :( horrible cough that has made him vomit this morning and lots of snot. No temp though :)
He's miserable and looks exhausted. He's only managed a 2 hour A time between 1st and 2nd nap. Guess we just ride this one out until he's better.

Jenny - I co sleep with him and haven't noticed any signs of sleep apnoea. What are the obvious ones just to clarify?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 19, 2015, 13:28:23 pm
Guess we just ride this one out until he's better.
Yes, that's the best course. Lots of snuggles and as much sleep as he needs. (((Hugs))), hope he's better quick.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: Edesanja on January 20, 2015, 01:25:00 am
Was just a thought as I have had the same thought about ds2. We have noticed that when he is snotty he doesnt get into a deep sleep properly as hdstops breathing then jolts awake with a snort. for him though he seems to get less air in than normal (squashed nose cos of clefts) so think it is just extra hard when he's snotty.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 25, 2015, 05:37:09 am
Hi

So I think the worst of the cold is over but his sleep is awful!! He's been up at 5.15am for the last 3 mornings and is getting more difficult to resettle at night. I'm struggling. Im so so tired.

I'm sticking to the 3 hour ish A time depending on what he can manage. He's been doing 1hr 15min naps but one morning did 2.5 hours! Do I let him sleep that long? Also what time should BT be if he's up at 5.15 ???

Im also trying to get him to suck his thumb to settle. I'm back to work in a month so I really need to sort this out. I can't work on this little sleep!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 25, 2015, 09:39:19 am
Hey Hun,
I also wondered sleep apnea reading your thread. Otherwise such frequent NW IME were always pain, always. I know he's DF but could there be something lease causing tummy digestive discomfort. Even at 2 with T he seems fine if he has some dairy for a day or two then bam...terrible terrible frequent NW night. Even though he's ok during the day.

Gluten or wheat, soy and fructose are all possible intolerances really (among others). :-\ any reflux symptoms back? I can't remember is he on any meds ATM?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 25, 2015, 10:05:44 am
Hi Sara

I was wondering what could be bothering him. He was up for 2 hours last night - well, would wake up every 5-10 mins. He's not on any reflux meds atm. We've tried neocate but he won't take it - tried adding flavourings etc. but he just refuses. He's really gone off food since being poorly, won't have more than a mouthful or two. Could it be something through me maybe? His poos seem ok. We're seeing the paed on Tuesday. I wish Finn could tell me what was bothering him!!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 25, 2015, 21:56:39 pm
Poos not ok :( mucous and awful smelling this afternoon. I don't know what's caused it ???
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 26, 2015, 00:57:56 am
Oh (((hugs))), definitely something bothering him.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 27, 2015, 07:43:27 am
I'm wondering if he needs to go back on omeprazole. The nights are unbearable :(  I can't remember if it takes a while to kick in or if it's pretty quick - sorry, I know that's a reflux question on the night waking boards.

He's also up at 4.50am. Very unsettled. I've given him calpol which seemed to help ??? He went back to sleep for half an hour.

Im just so very tired
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 27, 2015, 08:20:35 am
IIWM I would pop him back on the reflux meds and see if it helps. I know it's a difficult call Hun. I just had to put T back onto losec while he is teething molars, his reflux has returned ::)
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on January 27, 2015, 21:14:32 pm
Usually see an effect in a few days - maximum effect in a week or so.

I would try it and see and well honey  :-* :-*. It really can't hurt.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 27, 2015, 22:28:53 pm
Thanks guys. I gave him omeprazole tonight. Paed wants me to try formula again. Nutramigen 2 or Soy Formula. He reacted to Nutramigen last time though. We still have neocate so I was wondering about giving that another go.
Here's to hoping tonight isn't as awful - there's always hope!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: weaver on January 27, 2015, 22:50:06 pm
Hugs Kate, following along and hoping things look up for you. great advice from the ladies
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on January 28, 2015, 00:40:15 am
It really can't hurt.
I don't really know anything about reflux, but this is what I was thinking as I read through. If it can't hurt, I definitely think it's worth a try. Lots of (((hugs))), hope you see improvement soon. :-* Any chance you could get an extension on your mat leave?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: ZacsMumme on January 28, 2015, 09:06:51 am
Fx for the night Hun. Maybe see how the reflux meds go for a week then reconsider adding neocate into the mix if you need to?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on January 28, 2015, 10:20:17 am
There is a decent cross over between milk and soy protein sensitivity, so I would try the neocate first. Main issue is whether he will accept it at this age due to the taste. Soy will def be more palatable, but some say nutramigen is more bitter than neocate. I find them both foul myself  :-X :-X. My DS is currently on nutramigen.

Does he take a bottle? In my head he is BF  ???, but I may have that wrong.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on January 28, 2015, 10:53:47 am
Katie - no chance of an extension Im afraid. Mat pay runs out in 2 weeks and we can't afford to live just on OH's income.

We have tried both before. Nutramigen made me gag! I thought neocate was very slightly better! We've tried adding vanilla extract to sweeten it but he still refuses. He accepted it for about a week and was doing well with the bottle but then suddenly refused it completely.
Liz - yes he's bf. So Im df atm. He likes oat milk but of course that's not nutritious enough for him atm.

The night was bad again. He just won't settle. Gave him calpol again which definitely helped. He was better in the evening - managed 2.5 hours straight but wasn't good after that :(
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 05, 2015, 13:22:16 pm
So we're back on max dose of omeprazole - no change yet. He's decided he will now take a bottle so he's currently having 50% neocate to 50% oat milk and I'll gradually reduce the amount of oat milk. Im only breastfeeding at night - it's only been one day of no BFing so my boobs are adjusting!

I have been co sleeping with him for a while but I need him back in his cot - he's 8 mo and will soon be moving so the cot will be a lot safer. Plus I'm not sure if Im disturbing him during the night along with everything else! Last night he started off in his cot. He woke 12 times between 6.30pm and midnight. Im already exhausted so I just couldn't keep going and he came back in with me and slept ok.

Am I changing too much all at once? Im back to work at the beginning of March so need some improvement before then! How do I tackle getting him back in his cot? For naps he again started there but wakes after 30/40 mins - do I try to resettle and put him back in his cot?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 05, 2015, 20:57:36 pm
Am I changing too much all at once? Im back to work at the beginning of March so need some improvement before then! How do I tackle getting him back in his cot? For naps he again started there but wakes after 30/40 mins - do I try to resettle and put him back in his cot?
I don't think so.  I mean if you want things to change, you need to change them right?!  Easier said than done, believe me, I know.  I would start by working on the day time for a week to 10 days, and then tackle nights.  I think it's a little less daunting on all accounts if you do one thing at a time. 

So, all naps in cot, resettling and keeping him in the cot.  His A times may need a bump again if he's continually waking at 30/40min.  At night, I would resettle until you go to sleep and then if you need to for the first week, bring him in with you.  Ultimately, though, you are going to need resettle and keep him in the cot if that's where you want him to sleep.

(((Hugs))), it's so hard to be so tired.  Do you have some help you can secure so that you can get a break here and there during this time?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 05, 2015, 21:20:21 pm
Thanks Katie. He's on around 3 hours atm but I'll increase that a little. The pesky school run at 3pm throws a spanner in the works. If he's up around 6.30am then nap at 10? For 1hr 20 ish. Then the school run gets in the way.......

In terms of dropping BFing. I'm not feeding during the day but am at night atm. I'm hoping that will change. Neocate isn't very filling though!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 05, 2015, 21:56:39 pm
Neocate is filling honey - as long as they take a full feed etc. it's fortified with oils and fats the same as any formula suitable from birth.

If it doesn't seem very filling is it because of the oat milk? That is super low in fat and if it is half of the feed.... I have heard of mums using vanilla extract to sweeten neocate. You can get flavouring modules as well (on prescription). They are things like tropical fruit flavour and designed for toddlers who won't take it with developed taste buds.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: ZacsMumme on February 06, 2015, 10:21:59 am
T drank less neocate because it was so filling, I was worried he want getting enough but so much is absorbed and little waste.

We sweetened neocate for t. Some people disagree but our lead advised us too if he wouldn't take it because he was refusing to feed and getting dehydrated/FTT. We initially used golden syrup and after 10 days or so we weaned him off it completely. Vanilla also works for some but initially it didn't for T. You do what you have to in these circumstances I believe :-\  given he is accepting the transition though you prob don't need to sweeten at all unless you want to ditch the oat in one shot.

Personally I would wait for him to be on neocate only for a week then try st if you feel he is more comfortable.

What solids is he on?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 06, 2015, 14:12:10 pm
Hi. Thanks for your posts. Good to know it's filling :) some other mums who's lo's are on neocate said they thought it wasn't. Today he's had 75% neocate to 25% oatly. We have vanilla extract too - I add some to his omeprazole! Otherwise he won't swallow it.

He's been up and down with solids the last couple of weeks due to teething and colds etc. He has a combination of purées and finger foods. He's likes feeding himself but hasn't got any teeth yet so struggles to actually eat anything properly - its more sucking really.

He wakes about every 1.5 hours atm. Im still BFing during the night but not during the day. I was hoping he'd start doing longer stretches at night so I could drop BFing during the night. I can have it all prepared to make up a bottle during the night but not every 1.5 hours!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 06, 2015, 14:52:56 pm
How much is in his daytime bottles???

You may have to proactively drop the night feeds - he may wake for love of them if he isn't having any in the day  :-\. Are you weaning completely to start work??
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 10, 2015, 05:25:55 am
Hi Liz. Sorry, I didn't realise you'd posted. I make up 2 6oz bottles during the day - it's all Neocate now. And an 8oz bottle at BT. He's having a lot more now. Im weaning for a few reasons really - going back to work, the awful nights (is he still reacting to something in my milk??), so that someone else can feed him, had enough of df diet (selfish but I have, I'd like my body back)

We had 2 okish nights during the weekend - I don't know why!?! He only woke 4 times. On both days he had a later pm nap as I wasn't restricted by the school run. So he napped from around 3.15-4.15. I just can't do that during the week though as I have to leave to pick up dd at 3. And DS wouldn't nap with all that noise at the school. His morning nap is 9.30 ish until 10.45/11.

Last night was awful again. He just wouldn't settle and was up at 5. His pm nap was 2-2.45 so it was short. BT was 6.40 so maybe OT? He had a soya pudding for tea but he's had then before and seemed fine. He had calpol before bed.

I was really hoping we'd turned a corner :(  Im so fed up of being this exhausted. Work is going to be such a struggle if it carries on like this
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 10, 2015, 15:33:30 pm
(((Hugs))), Kate.  Any chance of getting some help picking up DD from school for a week or two, so you can get his routine going before you go back to work? I'm assuming that won't be an issue once you do go, as he'll be at a nursery?

Otherwise, would you like to post what the school runs look like for you? Maybe we can come up with a routine that could work around them...
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 10, 2015, 16:07:06 pm
Hi Katie. I can't get anyone to do school pick up every day unfortunately. I'll be working 2 days a week. One day he's with his grandparents so that will be fine and the other day win a childminder - who will be doing the school run so she can pick up dd.

The school runs are: am - leave at 8.30ish back at 9ish.
                               pm - leave at 3 back at 3.30ish

Today he was so tired that he fell asleep on the way to school in the pushchair (8.50am) woke at 9.20 back to sleep at 9.40 woke at 10.15, straight back to sleep until 11.25.

He fell asleep again in his pushchair 3-3.30. I was hoping for a longer nap but it wasn't to be. He was up at 5am so I was thinking EBT? 6pm? Or earlier?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 10, 2015, 20:55:44 pm
How many times did you feed him overnight when he woke up?

I think you will have no choice but to accept that it will always be a haphazard pm nap, and focus on getting a nice long am nap. Once that nap starts at 10.30/11 ish then the pm CN would be after the school run anyway.

I think we ideally need to fix the nights to improve the day rather than expect the routine to fix the nights. Once you are well into weaning the BF it might be worth doing bottles at night to see what effect that has  :-\. It was pretty dramatic for both my older 2. DS1 started to sleep 7 - 4pm on a bottle, and then to 6/7 after a quick feed. He would have been awake by 9pm before  ::) >:(. DD was waking every 3hrs for a feed and once on a bottle STTN within days. I think chronic tiredness was having a very negative effect on my milk by then  :(.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 10, 2015, 21:29:11 pm
I think I fed him around 4 times during the night. Sometimes I don't remember exactly as he ends up next to me so I don't properly wake up. It's usually around 4 times I think - never less!

How long would a good am nap be? Just wondering what to aim for.

He's had 6oz of just Neocate (no longer adding oat milk) at BT (6.40) But woke at 8.30 and wanted a feed - had to bf as didn't have a bottle ready. I'm not BFing at all during the day so I can try bottle feeding at night too to see if that helps.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 10, 2015, 21:32:42 pm
I wonder if it is worth a go  :-\.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 11, 2015, 16:05:57 pm
I think you will have no choice but to accept that it will always be a haphazard pm nap, and focus on getting a nice long am nap. Once that nap starts at 10.30/11 ish then the pm CN would be after the school run anyway.
Yes, I was thinking this too.  When there are school runs involved, you just can't help it being messy for awhile.  Until you get the first nap pushed out, even a 2-3pm nap would likely get him to a 6:30pm bedtime at this age. :-\.

Could you do something like this...
WU 6/6:30am
Nap 1 9:30-11am
Nap 2 2-3pm
BT 6:30pm

Or, start pushing the morning nap...
WU 6:30am
Nap 1 10-11:30/12
Nap 2 3:30-4 (might be OT from long A time, but that's ok)
BT 6:30pm

He's had 6oz of just Neocate (no longer adding oat milk) at BT (6.40) But woke at 8.30 and wanted a feed - had to bf as didn't have a bottle ready.
I think it's worth trying the bottles at night as well, but surely he wasn't hungry at that time. :-\ I've ended up with NFs for longer than I wanted with both my DSs as well (still have a couple with DS2 ::) :-[), but I think a good way to start working on settling them is to start at those early wake-ups and then keep pushing it later.  If you're persistent in settling the 8/9/10pm wakes, they seem to get the idea a bit and then it becomes easier to settle the later you get. I also think it's easier to be persistent before going to bed yourself, so that's another reason to start then. What do you think?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 11, 2015, 21:23:21 pm
Valid point - he couldn't have been hungry 2hrs after 6oz formula. He wanted a BF  ;) ::).
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 12, 2015, 08:22:07 am
I completely agree. He's not hungry, he just wants to bf. Should he last say 6.30pm - midnight? After having a bottle I mean. Then I'll offer another bottle? I will definitely try starting with settling for that first wake up - no bf!

That first routine you posted Katie is pretty much what we're doing atm so I'll stick to that for now and work on the nights.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 12, 2015, 14:44:57 pm
I would say at least 4hrs to start, then offer a bottle.

Will be interesting to see what he takes in oz at that point.

In theory that is DF time as well.

I think he will stop waking pretty fast once you get through this  :-*.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 12, 2015, 17:48:17 pm
^^^ I agree... I'd start at 4hr, then after a few days or a week move to 6, then 8, etc. If you get lucky, he might do it on his own without the BF. Holding your hand! :-*
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 12, 2015, 18:33:21 pm
Thanks so much Liz and Katie. I really need the support atm! I'll be staying strong!!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 12, 2015, 19:14:17 pm
(((Hugs))), hon... weaning extra BFs at night is never easy (have had to do it with both boys and still not all the way there with the baby ::)), but keep reminding yourself how good the long stretches of sleep that are in your future will feel. :)
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 13, 2015, 09:31:31 am
Hi. He had a high temp last night :( did well though considering. Had 5oz of formula at 10pm - he was very keen. He had wanted a bf before then so was very unsettled from 8.30-10 plus he had the temp. He was wriggly from 3.15am but not upset. Became more agitated at 4am and was hot again so offered the bottle and calpol - he only took 2oz of formula. He wanted a bf so he was unsettled from 4-6.30.

I don't think that's too awful for our first night of dropping the breastfeeds?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 13, 2015, 15:02:04 pm
Not too awful at all honey  :-* :-*.

He def fed less though didn't he??

He is used to quite a lot of night calories isn't he?? But we can soon change that I think  :).
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 13, 2015, 16:46:56 pm
Yes. He definitely fed less. And yes used to take on a lot of calories at night. He's off his food today due to this cold but have given him an extra bottle instead.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 13, 2015, 18:02:45 pm
Yes, definitely a start! It's really tough to make changes when they're not feeling well, too. Hope he comes around soon. (((Hugs)))
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 14, 2015, 10:54:05 am
Thank you :)

Not the best night. But he has got a bad cold bless him. He napped 9.30am - 12! With my help. I let him bc of him being poorly. But it messed up the rest of the day. He had 10 mins in his pushchair with his granny whilst I picked up dd from school. And that was it! I tried putting him down again but he was having none of it. BT was 6.30 as he seemed fine. He only took 3oz of milk. Then he woke 5 times between 6.30pm and 8.30 and was wide awake from 8.30 until 10.15! Gave him a bottle at 10pm - he had about 3oz. He woke at around 1.15 I think. And needed a little drink. Offered a bottle at 3 and he had 4oz. Up at 6.30. Very unsettled all night!

He is still waking at around the 30min mark during naps. Wide awake. Am I not helping by resettling him on me? Otherwise he won't go back to sleep. I try transferring him back into his cot but he wakes up. Do I just get him up after 30mins if he won't resettle in his cot or try and get a good nap as best I can? He only wants to suck my finger atm. He was doing well with his thumb before this cold. Sucking is his real comfort.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 14, 2015, 15:07:22 pm
Is he congested? That will make it hard for him to suck and feed and reduce the amounts he takes.

I'll let Katie offer her opinion on the resettling of naps - that is something I am struggling with at my end as well. I think *I* am Thomas's bed....... And common sense says at some point that will habit form doesn't it??

What does he do to resettle on you? T thrashes about but I hear him gulping and swallowing and being very 'fluxy so I guess that is why he doesn't stay down in bed  ??? ???.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 14, 2015, 20:10:33 pm
Yes he's pretty snotty. We've got olbas going which helps a bit.

He sucks my finger and lies on my chest to resettle on me. He just loves sucking and uses that to get back to sleep. That's why I'm trying to get him to suck his own thumb.  He's always refused a dummy.

Another unsettled evening. BT at 6.30, it's now 8pm and he's woken 3 times
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 14, 2015, 20:29:31 pm
Bless him  :-* :-*. Does he suck your finger to settle for a nap in the first place?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 14, 2015, 20:51:25 pm
When he's not poorly, I give him his bottle, cuddles and sing twinkle twinkle until very settled then into his cot on his left side and help him pop his thumb in his mouth. The last couple of days he's refused his thumb and would only suck on my finger. At BT tonight he was ok with his thumb
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 14, 2015, 21:02:52 pm
There is a bit of a prop weaning element to this as well isn't there? Have you posted in props and asked if anyone else has managed to get a LO to accept their thumb at this age? I just wonder if he actually won't and will take something else instead e.g. lovey. They often don't do what we think they will do.

I don't know how you feel about this, but it *may* be worth retrying the dummy now he is having a bottle. I think it does help them accept the plastic teat aspect.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 14, 2015, 21:15:49 pm
Good idea Liz. I'll post in props. I have tried a dummy again recently just so if he's with someone else they can use that to help get him to sleep if he won't take his thumb but he just chewed on it!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 14, 2015, 22:43:49 pm
He wakes loads between BT at 10pm. I can't get him to have a really good feed at BT. Once he's had a bottle at 10ish he's much more settled. Do I keep going with 4 hrs between feeds or do I try another bottle for his first wake up to fill him up? He pushes the bottle away at BT and won't have anymore - he's only taking around 3oz. Tea is usually 4.30pm ish so by 6.30pm he should be hungry?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 15, 2015, 01:55:39 am
Can you post your feeding routine again??

You could always try. Sometimes different approaches suit different babies regardless of what they 'should' be doing.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 15, 2015, 04:48:19 am
There is a bit of a prop weaning element to this as well isn't there? Have you posted in props and asked if anyone else has managed to get a LO to accept their thumb at this age? I just wonder if he actually won't and will take something else instead e.g. lovey. They often don't do what we think they will do.
I agree with this. I wouldn't try to change anything right now as he's full of cold, but I think if he really likes to suck that much, then he will find a way to do it... either his thumb or a lovey. I think if you want him to be an independent sleeper and resettle him in the crib, then you need to help him do that and not give him your finger. :-\

Is the bottle refusal at BT part of the congestion, do you think or was it like that before? My DS2 has a cold right now as well and is struggling to feed at certain times of the day. BT is one of them, I think because he's so tired and also can't breathe as well.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 16, 2015, 21:47:14 pm
Hi

He's better now :) still got a cough but much less snotty. He's still won't take a full feed at BT. Tonight it was only 3oz. He'll sleep for 2.5 hours (good for him!) and then wake and have 5oz. I'm trying to leave a good gap between tea and BT - about 1.5 hours but atm it hasn't changed anything.

He's still waking in the night, obviously, but less :) it was about 4 times last night which is really good for him. Last night he woke about 1.30am and only had a couple of oz's and the other couple of times he had a quick drink and went back to sleep - maybe this is from when he was bf all night and woke for a quick comfort drink??

I think things seem to be going in the right direction. Still working on the finger sucking thing. I posted in props but no one has replied yet.
For his naps he seems to be doing a longer am nap - nearly 2 hours! And then a shorter pm nap - about 40 mins. Trying to keep BT around 6.30pm

So WU 6.30 ish
Nap 10ish - 12
Nap 3.30-4.10
BT 6.30

How does that sound?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 17, 2015, 05:43:40 am
The routine looks good, I think. Sorry you haven't gotten any replies on Props... we can ask around for you and give you a bump.

I'm not sure what to say about the bedtime feed, maybe Liz will have some ideas. How many solid meals does he have? Could you cut back on what you offer for tea and see if that helps?

As for the NW/NF, now I think you'll want to start consolidating into 1-2 decent sized feeds and then stop offering a bottle at all wakes. What do you think?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on February 17, 2015, 12:11:08 pm
I struggle with the bedtime bottle as well - he only wants it when he is fully hungry. I got 1oz into him last night  >:(.

What time is his previous bottle? Is he good with solids or not yet? You might need a bigger gap on either really.

It might be something we just have to ride out until he is 9ish months and on 3 bottles and 3 solid meals.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 18, 2015, 10:18:44 am
He always refuses breakfast - probably bc is feeds all night! Lunch is usually better. He's on smooth purées as he gags with more lumpy things. Although we are giving him more textured food and he's doing better with finger foods. Tea is usually at around 4.30 and again he'll eat quite well. His bottles are at 9.30/10am and 3.30pm Then BT bottle at 6.30.

Last night was quite good apart from the start. He coughed from 7-9pm. Had another 4oz at 9. Woke at 12.30 had maybe a couple of oz's then woke again at 3.20 had another drink. Up at 5.50am.

How do I consolidate the feeds?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 19, 2015, 01:13:16 am
Does he have a morning WU bottle?

How do I consolidate the feeds?
Only offer them every 4hr, resettling other wakes (making sure you don't stop resettling to feed, but get him all the way to sleep and then feed at the next wake). Then, stretch out to 6, and then 8hr.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on February 20, 2015, 12:56:30 pm
Ok so resettle without feeding until he's gone 4 hours without a feed? He's not having big feeds at night. Managed to get 6oz into him at BT last night and he slept 7-10.15pm. But only had a couple of oz's. I'll try to push him out to 4 hours between feeds

He's now wanting a really long nap mid morning. Today he was up at 7am. Nap was 10.30 - 12.50! Is that too long?? Did a 30min CN yesterday 4.30-5. Don't want to mess up the nights with too much daytime sleep!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on February 21, 2015, 14:41:59 pm
Ok so resettle without feeding until he's gone 4 hours without a feed? He's not having big feeds at night.
Yes, I think to get him from waking to take just a few drinks you'll have to resettle.

He's now wanting a really long nap mid morning. Today he was up at 7am. Nap was 10.30 - 12.50! Is that too long?? Did a 30min CN yesterday 4.30-5. Don't want to mess up the nights with too much daytime sleep!
It's hard to know at this point. It's probably ok, since the other one is only 30min, but if he continues to wake at night or starts to EW, you'll probably have to cap it to 2hr.
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on March 18, 2015, 21:45:47 pm
Hi

I really need some help in regards to promoting self settling.

Update: Im now back at work - which is great for me but maybe not so much for DS. He's doing well though, it's only been 3 weeks. His grandparents look after him for 1 day and he's at a CM the other day.

He is still waking a lot during the night. On average probably 5 times. He is not an independent sleeper. He loves to suck on my fingers! BT is bottle, cuddle until asleep and then into cot.

Naps - 9.30ish - 11.30am (sometimes longer!)
          3ish - 3.45pm

BT 6.30/7 - usually wakes 7.30, 9, 10, 12, 2 maybe 4ish and then up at 6
He starts off in his cot but out of pure desperation to sleep he ends up next to me. He needs settling with either cuddles, milk or sucks on my finger.

When he's with his grandparents - currently staying with him at our house until he's more used to them looking after him - he naps as he usually would with me. At the CM's he does around an hour in the morning and then 1.5 hours in the afternoon. The problem is is he's not eating much during the day so is starving at night!

He's been ill on and off for a couple of months with the usual colds etc. he's now cutting his first tooth - finally!
I've let things get out of hand really. I need to get on top of his sleeping!

My question is - how do I stop him sucking my fingers for comfort? Do I go cold turkey? I guess I need to try him with his thumb again and only get him to suck that not my fingers?
Do I start with that and then work on helping him to self settle with him sucking his thumb? He completely refuses a dummy. Sorry if this post is all over the place - Im trying to give you all the info but it might just sound like me rambling!
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *Liz* on March 19, 2015, 09:52:13 am
Yes - if you want to remove the prop you have to stop offering it. Sorry  :-\.

I really don't see another way.

I wouldn't encourage the thumb as such either - he's old enough to figure out what sort of self settling he is going to do  :).
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: *foxy* on March 19, 2015, 09:55:12 am
Ok. Thanks Liz. Would pu/pd be ok to try do you think?
Title: Re: He never seems to completely konk out!
Post by: katie80 on March 20, 2015, 00:57:10 am
I agree with Liz, hon. He's really too old to try to gradually help him through. You need to stop offering your finger. He will either find his thumb or suck on a lovey or do something else all together (my DD pulled/twirls her hair, my DS2 grabs his lovey and stuffs it under his tummy).

Yes, PUPD would be appropriate, or you can just sit by his cot and soothe him with your voice and a light touch when needed. At this age, there's really not much picking up anyway. Is he pulling up to standing? At that point, you would just do PD. This is a great link on the age adaptations... How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)