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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: jakobsmom on January 13, 2015, 13:12:58 pm

Title: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 13, 2015, 13:12:58 pm
We are still struggling here.  I have determined that DS is lower sleep needs but not drastically low.  This is the new routine that seems to be working for the day but not for NWs.  Some days DS will do a long pm nap others a long am nap.

This was our day yesterday where he had a long am short pm.  I did try to decraese A times a touch to see if this helped, but he wouldnt fall asleep until his normal A times.

Up 715
3 hour A time
Nap 10-1145
Ended up with 4 hour A after long nap, but tried to get him down starting at the 3.15 mark
Nap 345-415 (had to wake due to an appointment)
3.5 A
BT 730

First NW at 930
Second NW 130 am
Very unsettled until around 4 (not awake but not a good sleep)
Up for day at 650

DS has recently had several huge milestones he claps, waves, crawls and is trying to oull himself up on everything!

Also a coupke teeth getting ready to make their appearance.

Thanks for any insight.

Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 14, 2015, 12:37:36 pm
Just an update on yesterday.
Awake at 7
Tried 3 hour A to nap, but big time resisted nap eventually went down at the 3.5 mark
Nap 1030-1230
Took DS into room at 3.75 mark fell asleep easily at 4 hour mark
Only let sleep 40 minutes
A time to bed was about 3.75
Bed was 830
First NW at 1100 then continual NW almost every hour.

I do not like how long our day is getting and am going to do my best to avoid a 14 hour day but this is getting exceedingly harder with the long A time.

Should I cut second nap to 20 minutes, maybe this will help preserve BT?

Thank you for taking a look, one tired mommy here
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 14, 2015, 13:02:25 pm
Hi Hun, we are a mess too as you know but thinking back to DDs routine at this age, she'd have probably done a much shorter last A by the time earlier A times were hitting 4h.  I'm thinking more like 2.5h after a catnap.  The pattern of NWs yesterday suggests OT to me.  Do you think he'd have gone down any sooner for bed?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 14, 2015, 13:32:28 pm
Hi Katherine
Thanks for taking a look.  I could give it a try worse case it doesnt work and we reattempt a bit later.  I could have easily missed his sleepy cues as I was expecting at least 3.15 to 3.75 A.  Will see how today pans out.  We had an early wake at 630 so a very short night.  I am going to push him to normal nap time of 10 and see how the day goes from there.  He is one grumpy soul this am.  Hope your day is better too :). So difficult, I return to work tomorrow - only teo days a week but would like a bit better grasp on things.
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 14, 2015, 14:20:23 pm
Hugs Hun, it's hard working on less-than-ideal sleep.  I hope your first day back goes well xx
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 14, 2015, 15:21:42 pm
Well we made it to 940 no way we could make it to 10 for first nap :(
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 14, 2015, 15:26:20 pm
:( we've had plenty of days like that, hope things get back on track the rest of the day xx
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 15, 2015, 11:39:47 am
Ok so here was yesterday.
Up 630
Nap 945-1130
A 4 hours
Nap 330-4
A 275
BT 645

Then many NWs firstone being only after 45 minutes.  He was happy trying to sit up about every hour and finally crashes at 2 am.

I am thinking not enough A until BT and he was UT - thoughts?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: newkidontheblock on January 15, 2015, 11:42:47 am
It could be residual OT, Kristen, and nothing to do with the day in question. Doesn't he usually put up a fight if he is UT at BT?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 15, 2015, 13:06:44 pm
I'd still say the pattern was OT, not UT.  Maybe less OT than usual so didn't crash so hard?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 15, 2015, 19:31:22 pm
Im starting to wonder if I am reading this poor guy completely wrong.  He slept during the night at three months and even after 4 months we had only one NW.  At this time his sleep was good so I didnt focus on A times and nap lengths.  Im wondering if I have pushed him too far with trying to correct the NWs and have made him more OT in the process.  I know the A times are ok because he falls alseep really easily, but maybe I shouldnt be waking him from his long nap at the two hour mark.  With capping daytime sleep to 2.5 hours he is still only getting max 10 hours of sleep at night and it is so broken up that it cant be restorative.....  Starting to think I should let him sleep and have a later BT... I know this isnt necessarily BW routine, but we have been struggling for months with no improvements :(.  Maybe I am going about things all wrong?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 16, 2015, 13:05:01 pm
Big hugs to you hun :-* I have been thinking exactly the same things with DS, I just don't feel like I've 'got' him and his sleep needs at all.  One minute I think he's lower sleep needs, then he gets major OT and grouchy because I misjudge a BT or something (he seems quite touchy about that and anything will throw his nights off).  And then I'm stuck wondering if in fact he is just horribly chronically OT.  Keep posting hun, I find that an outside perspective really helps in looking at the 'facts' as when I can see the grouchy LO in front of me, it's hard to consider anything other than OT as a possibility.
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: newkidontheblock on January 18, 2015, 03:48:36 am
Kristen, a few more thoughts. Please disregard if I don't make any sense.

Okay, firstly, I think that there is just so much accumulated OT that you can't really go by the A times as they are all over the place. And you are getting different nap lengths even with similar times - eg: One day after 3.5, you have got a 2 hour nap but then that hasn't repeated. I agree with what you said -- I think for a few days, if possible of course -- just let him nap for as long as he needs for the first nap and then you can reassess the day based on that. If nothing else, he can catch up on some OT.

Another thing I found with E, if I go in too early, I get massive resistance and then she gets super OT by then end and crashes, and I inevitably get a short nap and a cranky baby.  I am mainly speaking about this --> Ended up with 4 hour A after long nap, but tried to get him down starting at the 3.15 mark. So his A time isn't 4, it just took so very long because once they get into that mood, it is hard to snap them out of it.  Whereas here you did not have a problem ---> Took DS into room at 3.75 mark fell asleep easily at 4 hour mark.
I think L needs a short wind down otherwise like E, once he starts resisting, it becomes hard to get him down and more OT buildup

I like your idea of just going with the flow and letting him sleep in the day (for a day or two, at least) and pushing BT a little to adjust. It will at least help getting ahead of the OT a bit and then you can better assess his A time.

FWIW, L & E were doing similar times previously and right now I believe her A is 3.50, so I don't think you are wrong in thinking his is 4 hrs. But as Katherine said, the A before bed shouldn't be too long otherwise the OT monster is back.

Is he still waking every hour in the night? Could you post what the last few nights have looked like?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 18, 2015, 09:43:44 am
Dropping by with more hugs, and hoping things are ok xx
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 18, 2015, 13:04:59 pm
Thank you.  Yesterday was the first day of not capping naps and this is what we got.

WU 645
A 3.15
Nap 10-1145
A 3.5
Nap 330-450
A 3.75-4
BT 845
Then he slept until 6!  I was able to resettle until 715 then up for the day.  I know this is a long day and could be a one off, but if it works for him I can deal with a later BT.  What are your thoughts? 
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: newkidontheblock on January 18, 2015, 13:22:33 pm
Progress! Hurrah! Good that he is getting to catch up on OT.
What we are doing here is capping the second nap at 1 hour but that is mainly to leave enough time till bed. Does he need such a long A till bed? Whenever we get EWs, it is OT. Do you think that is why he WU so early? It would explain how you were able to resettle him. In which case, bed a bit earlier would help.
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: Martini~ on January 18, 2015, 13:29:54 pm
Just popping in!

He slept more during day, he had two restorative naps and still he slept full night. This somehow confirms the OT theory girls had which I agree with.
So... You probably won't get two full naps every day but could you go with much earlier BT when you have one long-one short A? So even 2,5h after last nap? I have to say that my DS is going up to 5h in the morning but if I do a short catnap at 4pm, he can easily go down at 7pm even after 2,5h A. I think it's not A time but just "end of the day" for him and around 7pm he is just sleepy little buba:).
So if you have long/short nap pattern I would go for 12h day as max or even would try 11,5h to see if that helps. WDYT?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 18, 2015, 13:39:32 pm
Thanks for the thoughts.  I took DS into his room at 730 to try and do an earlier BT and it did not work.  This LO seems to need a longer A to bed after a good nap.  We were in his room for almost an hour and a half before he settled.  Totally agree about OT and am very thankful for a bit of sleep!

Martii we were capping the pm nap at 30-45 minutes and DS was waking up almost every hour after early BT and sometimes woyld be up for over an hour until he would finally resettle.  We tried the capped nap then 2.5 to bed but he would wake up within 45 to 120 mintues later then was up forever before we could resettle.  And then multiple NWs.  This is why I am so lost with this guy.  And TBH DS1 goes to bed at around 730 asleep for 8 and atouch later BT for DS2 works better for everyone.  DS1 is very loud and we live in a bungalow, when DS2 has EBT I feel like a horrible mom because all I do is get frustrated with DS1 and keep asking him to be quiet.

We had similar issues with DS1, but it was easier to tweak his routine since he was our only LO.

I agree with the OT thats why I stopped capping the naps.  At night it was like he could never get into a restful sleep.

Ugh so confused.
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: newkidontheblock on January 18, 2015, 14:08:54 pm
One more thought -- I still think the BT resistance might be OT. Is DH around at that time? Next time, try parent switch. When DD is very OT at BT, it takes ages for me to settle her - she will keep crying or settle-WU-settle-WU -- then we switch and she snaps out of it. It works the other way around also when DH can't settle her.

The reason I am saying this is, DD and L seem similar in their sleep needs and I have noticed this happening with her. Day Before with A of 3.50 -- 1.20 am nap followed by 30 minutes pm nap ending at 4.30. I aimed for BT at 6.30 - 2 hours seemed fine. But nope-- very OT and needed help. Yesterday am nap of 3 hours, 30 min CN ending at 6, BT at 7.30 - slept off so happily. Today again, WU - 7.30, am nap of 1.5, CN 30 mins ending at 5, BT 6.30 - no issues (yet)

So, yes, completely agree with Marta, that the resistance is probably due to him already being over tired by that point rather than UT. You mention that after capping the nap he would WU soon after BT, that usually means OT.

You can of course push BT to 7.30. In fact Tracy even recommends a 7.30 - 7.30 sleep cycle (I think) Totally agree with Marta about the 'end of the day'. In fact, I remember talking about this in the BC. That as long as she is rested enough, she will switch off at that time because it isn't just the A before bed but rather accumulated tiredness of the day.

FX that the good nights continue!
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 18, 2015, 14:45:04 pm
Thanks Fleur.  Im not completely convinced the issue last night was him being OT.  He had an am nap of 1.45 and a pm nap of 1.5.  I do think that I missed his window though with him being silly, but he was not at all ready for bec at the 2.5-3 hour mark.  He also went down great for both of his naps.  The funny thing with this guy is I do early BT after capping his pm nap and he goes to bed easy but then is awake 45-60 minutes later.  And then has a LONG NW bevore he finally settles and then the consecutive NWs start.  I think in those situations he is UT at bed then gets OT with the long NW.
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: Martini~ on January 18, 2015, 18:18:05 pm
If that suits both you and him Hon I would go for it. It makes me realize that some LOs just don't like capping naps, YK:)? Like when you are later in 1:0 transition some will have a 2h nap until the very last moment and just shorten nights and switch to no nap cold turkey? So maybe your little L is similar and should continue with two uncapped naps and maybe nights shorten to min 10h and when you are there do a cold turkey switch to one nap? Btw it's what's Tracy suggests if I am right. She says LOs nap at 9:30 after 7am WU until 2:1 transition!
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 18, 2015, 18:29:58 pm
Thank you so much for the support!  It has been such a struggle with this LO and Ive been afraid I have been reading him all wrong - trying to put him in the same box as his brother so to speak.  I had a bad evening myself - just blaming myself and getting upset that I cant figure out my own baby.  Once I settled down a bit I thought maybe I am going about this all wrong.  So will give this new approach a try and pray that I have found something that works for him.
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: Martini~ on January 18, 2015, 19:12:50 pm
Keeping fingers crossed for you and keep us posted:)!
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 19, 2015, 13:30:25 pm
Thinking of you and hope the good night was repeated x
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: athenasmom on January 19, 2015, 15:12:26 pm
Kristen - EBT does not work for us either. We would also get an NW about 45 min after BT which would take about 45 min to 1 hour to settle, so we have abandoned EBT as well. I'd rather do a short CN if it seems that DD cannot handle the A time until BT but would keep her BT between 7:30 and 8:00. For us that seems to bring the best night sleep. Later than that and she will have OT wakings, earlier than that and she will have UT a waking. Luckily she does not do the multiple NW's though. I'd say if you find the right BT that works for you then stick with it. Also, it would make life much easier for you if you could put both kids down at the same time. I would shoot for the later bedtime no problem. You might have to keep it for a few weeks though before he gets used to it and you start to see some results.  ;)
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 20, 2015, 20:28:35 pm
Thanks Suzanna,
On a day when naps didnt add up would you do a 15-20 minute cat nap to get to BT?

Thanks for the help :)
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: athenasmom on January 20, 2015, 22:40:33 pm
I look at the baby and if I think she needs a CN until BT then I would do one not more than 30 min though. I would APOP if neccessary to keep the BT. As I said EBT does not work for us too well.  ;)
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 20, 2015, 23:55:39 pm
Thanks, he refused the CN so we abandoned it.  Going to be a long A until bed will see how he does.  He had a 140 nap this afternoon though so hopefully enough to get him to bed.

Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: athenasmom on January 21, 2015, 03:16:04 am
LOL just after I posted I had to make the same choice ... DD woke from her 45 min 2nd nap at 4:15 and was ready to sleep at 6:15. I could have opted to keep her up a bit and then put her down at 7 but I knew that would end up in an NW 45 min after BT. So I popped her into the sling and went for a walk with DS who wanted to go out to fly his helicopter  ;D So it worked out well. She took a 15 min CN then had solids then bath BT bottle and bed by 7:50. BT wad a bit rough as she needed some help to settle but has been sleeping since.
How did your BT go? Did L get very OT?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: Martini~ on January 21, 2015, 06:10:37 am
Here also CN was a godsend. We were doing 3 naps up to 8mo as they were all short and it didn't affect his nights. I never went for EBT as it never worked for us in the early months.
However it depends on a kid - mine rarely fights BT, we do it at 7pm for ages and even if his CN was at 4:30 he will go down at 7pm. However I adjust the length (sometimes it's hit & miss) and do notes anything more than 45min.
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 21, 2015, 14:53:16 pm
Is it possible that my guy needs a longer A until bed time?  It seems like we get better stretches when DS has 4-5 hour A time before bed (after a good afternoon nap).  I am ok with this as it put BT around the 8 pm mark which works great for us.  Kind of dumbfounded by this.....
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 21, 2015, 15:14:44 pm
Kristen - DS also started doing a better night with a long stretch before bed. However it very quickly unravelled :( :( and he seemed exhausted in the morning despite a seemingly better night.  I guess you could try it a few days and see what happens?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 21, 2015, 15:31:57 pm
Thanks Katherine, I am going to give it a few days for sure.  I do not think I would attempt this with a short afternoon nap though.  He has been doing anywhere from 1.45-2.5 for afternoon nap, so I think he is well rested.  However like you said it could all unravel with OT.  Will keep plugging on and see how things go, thats all we can do at this time ;)
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 21, 2015, 15:50:44 pm
Suzanna, he did go to bed well.  Slept until 11 was up for an hour then finally settled until 6.  Its an improvement, at least he wasnt up every hour.
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 21, 2015, 16:01:11 pm
Good luck hun, keep us posted.  Although it's no help, it's good to know that we're in thus rubbish sleep thing together xx
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: athenasmom on January 21, 2015, 18:15:50 pm
Yeah, the hourly NW's are killer for sure  :P We had those at the 4 month sleep regression for a while. I would take an hour NW over that any given day. I don't want to be sounding negative but it might be that your little guy is just a sensitive bad sleeper and you might get NW's for a while no matter what you do.  :( In my previous birth club we had a little girl who was like that and her mom always said she blamed the position of the Moon, the Sun and the stars for her NW's  ;D

BTW I think he can do that long A time after a nice long nap (I mean 2.5 hour sounds heavenly to me, it almost never happens here) and that would mean he is really close to the 2-1 switch.  ;)
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 21, 2015, 18:45:03 pm
Well he did a two hour nap this am, I will put him down just before 3 but wont let him sleep past 4.  That way we can easily aim for 8-830 BT depending on his mood.

DS1 was a very sensitive sleeper, was hoping to get a break this time around lol.  Im still holding on to the hipe that I havent quite figured him out yet :)
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 21, 2015, 20:28:16 pm
We got a 30 minute nap after a 3.75 A following the long nap this AM.  So we wont make it to 8.  BT will have to be between 7-730 ish.  I was going to do 4 hour A tomhis second nap as he was quite happy unitl around the 3.5 mark started rubbing his eyes so took him into his room and he was asleep just before the 3.75 mark.  That and the four hour mark wouldve been at the time I get DS1 off the bus.  Any thougts about BT - knowing the EBT doesnt work.  He almost treats EBT like another nap.  Sleeps 45-60 minutes then up And ready to go...
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: Martini~ on January 21, 2015, 21:40:22 pm
Just wanted to post Hon that probably after 2h morning nap he wouldn't like to nap for more than 1h so you will not have to wake him:).

Jut a thought, maybe you could consider capping morning nap if he decided to sleep longer here on let's say 1,5h or other minimum which is giving you at least 1h nap in the afternoon. WDYT? I know you don't want to cap naps but I guess that maybe capping first but letting him sleep as much as he wants on second nap + BT at 8pm even if it is 3h after WU from a previous nap. He should be tired as the day was long, WDYT?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jakobsmom on January 26, 2015, 13:49:28 pm
Hi me again,
So Marta we tried what you suggested.  We capped the am nap to 1.5 hours and the second nap is roughly 1.5-2 depending on the time of day.

We have stuck with the 3 hour A in the am
3.5 after nap
Then we have to do at minimum 4 hours to bed.  We tried bed sooner but it just doesnt work.  He screams and cries etc with an earlier BT but if we go back into his room at the 4/4.5 hour mark BT is easy.  And TBH we get the best nights with a 4.5 hour A until bed.

I was going to cap his am nap to one hour today to bring his afternoon nap a bit earlier.  I was going to try and push out am A time to see if this works but honestly we are having better nights not perfect but better and I do not want to start playing around with things even more.  Is it possible he just needs a really long A to bed?  He is a very busy baby crawling, pulling himself up on everything and trying to stand independently.  He can get up on both knees by himself already and maintain it for a few seconds!

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: athenasmom on January 26, 2015, 14:24:55 pm
My thought is that every baby is different. You know him best  :-* Also, if it ain't broken do not try to fix it. If he is getting better nights with 4-4.5 hours A time to BT then keep it. If it means that you have to cap his morning or afternoon nap then do it. I am glad that nights are getting better for you and keep my fingers crossed that it sticks. And WOW on all that movement ... he really is busy  ;D
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: Martini~ on January 26, 2015, 17:02:42 pm
Hi Honey! That's great that his nights are better!
Can you post your rutine right now? If I am correct you are now on 14,5h days so a long one! If it suits him, I wouldn't change! The question is if it suits you. I like to have some time in the evening for myself:).

If you decide to shorten first nap, I would be tempted not to cut/prolong any A time in the morning or after nap. I would go for the same routine as you have but shorten nap by 0,5h and than go for 3,5-4h after second nap. And I would tweak until you find a good, suitable for you and tour family balance between WU/BT.

Than you know to which strategy you will go when approaching 2:1 transition. Shortening first nap:).
Title: Re: Help still struggling - 8 months old now
Post by: jessmum46 on January 26, 2015, 19:20:30 pm
Sounds good hun, if it is working for you all then go with it, don't worry about what he 'should' be doing or what others are doing.  If he needs the long A to bed, he needs the long A :). If you want the day a touch shorter maybe do as Marta suggests, shorten the first nap, keep same A time before second nap and then he may be willing to go down a touch sooner in the evening x