BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Mackjack on January 30, 2015, 23:04:05 pm
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Hello,
DS is an independent sleeper, controlled silent reflux and STTN -except recently where we've had one illness/reflux episode after another.
3 weeks ago, it became clear that 2 naps wasn't working anymore. The 2nd nap was a real fight and was getting as late as 5pm -ridiculous. I was sick of guessing A times, forcing/cappinh naps so I bit the bullet and went to 1 nap with a set nap time - 12pm - and set BT - 19.00. Tricky at first - EWs etc but it seemed to be working much better.
He was ill last week and was unsurprisingly NW a lot. As he's got better (just seems a little snotty now), the NWs are less but they're still happening and lasting about 1.5hrs. Typically, he will cry, we go into him, he settles quickly but wakes again about 5/10mins later and so it goes on.
I wondered if after the illness and still adjusting to one nap, he might be OT - especially as the other day he played in his cot for 20mins before his nap before passing out for 2hrs and the same day, he cried at BT and I had to go and resettle him.This, to me, indicated he might be OT and a bit worked up -he usually goes straight down. So last night, I tried a v slightly earlier BT - 18.50. He woke at 22.30 - on the monitor I could see him standing up and crying. As soon as I walked in the room, he laid down and started settling himself, without me even touching him. I stayed about 10mins while he fell asleep, he woke when I left the room so DH went in and he settled a few mins later. Then he stood up and cried at 5am but went back to sleep with no intervention from us. Then he finally woke at 6.15 HAPPY which rarely happens these days.
Today he had a great nap (2hrs 45 - had to wake him to pick up DD) but I thought I'd try EBT again (18.50). He's just woken at 22.00 and done basically the same as last night - laid straight down as soon as I walked in though I did put my hand on him briefly as he was moaning. So I was wondering if I should maybe try an even earlier BT - about 18.30 - although I'm scared of getting an UT NW!! What do you think? Here's the last 2 days EASY to clarify:
THURSDAY
WU 6.15am
NAP 12-14.20
BT 18.50
NW 22.30 (as described above)
NW 5am (as described above)
WU 6.15
FRIDAY
WU 6.15
NAP 12.-14.45 (had to wake him)
BT 18.50
NW 22.00 -as described above
It just seems if I put him to bed at 18.30 that will be a really short 2nd A time compared to his first really long A time? Having said that, DD used to WU at 6.30, nap from 13.00-16.00 then BT at 19.00 so it is possible I guess.
My experience with him is that NWs - even really long ones - are usually due to OT (or reflux - we've had some epic 3hr ones - yuk!). But I don't think I've ever experienced an UT NW with him as he's never done that thing where he wakes for ages happy and chatting in the middle of the night - had these a few times with DD and I'm so scared of causing them with DS!!
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Last night was rubbish but before I tell you about that I should add when he was ill he had mild tonsilitis. He also deceleration a weird nettle-like rash which the Dr said was an allergic reaction to his illness and gave me Piriton.
So last night after that brief early waking he woke at 3.20 am with a leaked nappy. He looked really tired. I changed him and noticed the rash had flared again so gave Piriton. He started to settle by himself but kept fidgeting. Just after 4am he said "Dad Dad" - I thought he was going to stay playing and felt myself getting annoyed so left the room in frustration. I watched him on the monitor and he stood up, started doing a tired-sounding moan and then just laid down and went to sleep! But he woke at 5.50am. I hadn't got back to sleep since his waking so in exhaustion I put him in our bed but he just laid on me chatting so we got up. So I don't know what to make of that???
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"Deceleration"?! Should say "developed"!
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He does sound a bit OT but also possibly still ill - what with that rash coming back and all. It sounds like you're on the right track, I think, with one nap for him but given that he's ill and still adjusting, I would go for that earlier BT and also for trying to keep his afternoon A time low key if you can. Sounds like he's doing a great job self-settling!
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Thank you. He's been acting tired this morning since that 5.50 wu but im holding him out til 12. So do you think try a 6.30 BT even if he has a good nap?
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Yes, I'd go for that or earlier if you need to. I think he's LSN? But that EW tells me he's really OT!
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Ahhh I really can't work out if he's LSN or not but I'll give the EBT a crack - wish me luck!!!
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Hello Hun, just chipping in with extra support. I agree it does seem that illness is still playing a part and he is still recovering. Obviously he will be more tired, and need to sleep himself well.
Have you considered leaving the nap uncapped but going for a 13 hour day ??? If he sleeps on. It might help zap that OT, as it sounds like he is napping really well, which is super considering he is quite new to the 1 nap routine :)
Alternatively, bring the nap forward a bit making it more restorative and leave length and BT the same ??? :-\
((HUGS)) Hun. Remember Piriton is a drowsy medicine so if he needs this it may not be indicative of what will always happen :-X :-\
x.
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Hi Sammysmammy. I dont cap his one nap unless I need to wake him for the school run. So do you mean if he wakes at 6.15 am, do BT at 19.15 regardless of nap length?
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Hi Hun,
No, not whilst he's probably still recovering from illness, I was just thinking that a super nap with a longer day might be better than the alternative.
How's it going ???
x.
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Thanks Sammysmammy. He had a decent night on Saturday - just a bit restless. Woke up last night with a leaked nappy (again!) at 11.30 and cried for about an hr. Seemed v upset and his face was blotchy so I gave him Piriton. Woke up early from nap today upset again but no sign of rash. It's odd because other than the rash popping up mildly now and then he seems really happy. Spoke to Dr today who said the rash can hang around but to be assured it would go soon. It's so hard when he's not v obviously ill to know whether it's discomfort disturbing his sleep or a routine problem but I dont want to mess with his routine without being sure. After his short nap today (1hr30) I put him to bed at 19.00. He seemed v lively but I settled him fairly quickly. Just see what tonight holds I guess. .....
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Weaver -just realised I totally failed to put him down early for BT as you had advised - especially as he woke early from his nap today. Argh, I don't know what I'm doing anymore - losing the plot thinking about this all the time!
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It's so hard when he's not v obviously ill to know whether it's discomfort disturbing his sleep or a routine problem but I dont want to mess with his routine without being sure.
Hi Hun, this is the theory I always hold with, otherwise you can end up tweaking unnecessarily :(
In these instances I would always go with an earlier BT if the nap was short, but DS would tack on sleep as a general rule, so we could go with SEBT and it would pay off. I do know it doesn't for others though, so IME they would stick hard and fast with set nap and BT regardless. It really does depend on his ability to tack on sleep, and whether he is a LO that responds to routine and sets his body clock hard and fast.
For NW it might be worth going straight in with APOP at the moment too, to try and settle him before he wakes up completely, shushing and a back rub or whatever works for him. With a wet nappy I would always change in the dark with a very low night light and talk as little as possible so as not to stimulate DS too much. Sorry, these are probably very obvious things to you ::)
x.
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Thank you. I agree with all you said. But last night has thrown me. As i said, after his short (1.5hr) nap yesterday (woke at 13.30 crying) he went to bed at 19.00. He actually had a really good night which I wasn't expecting - he woke at 3.50am but settled as soon as I walked in the room then slept til 6.40 am and woke happy. Today I've just put him down for his nap at 12 as usual and hes up there playing. So do I need to start putting him down for his nap later - even though he's only been on 1 nap at that time for a few weeks? Or should I nap him later when he wakes in the morning later? Does he only need a short nap now ( even though he woke from that short one crying?)Or is this just a glitch? Or do I just stick with 12pm nap til I'm sure he's better? ( seems fine today so far). So many questions!!
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Hi,
Can I just ask if there is anything else going on developmentally at the moment Hun ???
With Movement, language, food and drink habits ??? I'm just wondering if there's something we're missing that is affecting sleep other than routine and recovering from illness.x.
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Hmm I don't think so. He's been walking for months, eats and drinks well, not really talking but he does seem to understand more and more of the things I say to him.
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By the way he played at nap time for about 15 mins and is still asleep now (14.25). I'm going to have to wake him to get DD from school. Considering he had an almost 12 hr night ( minus 10 min wu) and is having a good nap, shall I do EBT or go for 19.00 ?
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I'd go for 19h. Sounds like things are getting back to some sort of normal :)
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Thanks Weaver. Yes, I'm hoping so - will go for 19.00 and report back!
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So I did 19.00 BT and he woke at 4am....with ANOTHER LEAKED NAPPY!!! ARRRGH!!! Finally went back to sleep and slept til 6.50. So it's hard to tell if he would've slept all night or not. Nappies are doing my head in - I always get leakages - I've tried changing size and everything!!
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Nappies are doing my head in - I always get leakages - I've tried changing size and everything!!
Have you tried doubling up Hun, it has worked for some :/ x.
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Hey Mackjack, why not start a thread on the problem? I'm sure you'd get some great ideas.
Otherwise - brilliant night! FX for another one.
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Yes I was doubling up for a while - such a waste of nappies though! A thread sounds like a plan!
Will keep you posted on how tonight goes. Always wishing for the day when i can go to bed without "the fear"....
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Ha! Me too ;)
It comes, don't worry.
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So last night he woke at 4.20 - that magic hr. His nappy hasn't leaked ( at least I don't think so) and I settled him quickly but he woke a few mins later and this time he was soaked!! So I will start a thread on nappies ( bought some different ones today) but I still can't work out if this 4am-ish waking is habitual or not. It's just weird that it normally coincides with a leaked nappy. Again he went back to sleep til 6.50. Usual nap today then I got him to bed ever so slightly later at 19.10 and he needed resettling after 45 mins which is a new one - OT?
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Hi Hun,
It could be that the nappy leaked much earlier and this is HW, so I definitely think it's something to bear in mind. Have you considered 'wake to sleep' ???
x.
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I said to myself that if he woke at 4am again last night I would do WTS tonight. But he didn't. So after that WU after 45 mins, he slept til 6.45 am. I'm sure he's probably lulling me into a false sense of security but let's see what happens tonight. ...!
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Fingers very cautiously crossed!
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Hi. Its been a while since I posted on this subject as DS got ill AGAIN. That's what the 45min WU after BT (4 posts up) was about.
Anyway, he seems to have recovered now (oh I hope so!) but we're having some more sleep problems. Namely nap resistance, BT resistance and we either get a short night with no NWs but an unhappy EW or an approx 12hr night that is restless with a few short NWs but a happy EW. I just cannot win!! And I can't figure out if it's OT or UT.
Usually I settle him to sleep by holding him for a few mins til he starts to settle on my shoulder but recently I've had it where he's just laughing and screeching or he's laying on my shoulder but his eyes are just wide open, with no sign of sleepy droopiness - for ages. Some nights I've put him down only for him to start crying a few mins later and I have to go back in.
Here are a few days' EASY:
THURS
WU 5.45 - slept again til 6.15 in my bed
Nodded off on way home from school run about 9am for 5mins
S really resisted nap at 12 - finally went down at 12.45 til 14.15 (1.5hrs) - woke up grumpy
BT 19.00 took a long time to calm him
WU 4.30 - v brief. Had to pick up and cuddle him - put him straight down and he went back to sleep
FRI
WU 6.30 - crying but didn't want to sleep more
S tried at 12.00 but he was just laughing at me so took him back downstairs. All of a sudden at 12.20, he got really tired so I put him down then. Can't remember how long he slept.
NW 22.30 - settled v quickly
SAT
WU 6.00 - woke crying but would not go back to sleep
S 12.05 went down easily. Slept til about 14.45/50 (2hrs 40ish)
BT 19.00 would not go down. Took 40 mins of going in and out of his room. Went down 19.40
SUN
WU 5.40 crying but wouldn't go back to sleep
S nodded of at 11am in his pram for 5mins
S Had a fight to get him to nap at 12 - finally went down at 12.45 - slept til about 14.25 (1hr 40)
BT 19.00 went down fine
MON
WU 5.50 crying but wouldn't go back to sleep
S fought at 12. Tried again at 12.30 - finally crashed at 12.35. Woke him after 2hr 10 (14.45) as I was scared a long nap like the other day would make him fight BT
BT 19.00 seemed calm so I put him down but he cried when I left so I had to go back in and hold him for ages to calm him down - went down about 19.30
TUES
WU 5.35 - crying, wouldn't go back to sleep. Tried for an hour.
S fought nap at 12, went down 12.30 - woke him 14.30
BT 19.05 went down fine
NW 12.30 - had to pick him up for 30secs, then put him down and he went back to sleep
NW 4.15 - put my hand on his back, settled in 30 secs
NW 5.30 cried out for a min, put himself back to sleep
WEDS
WU 6.50 happy
S - he just started crying like he was really tired at 11.30 so tried putting him down (Even though I didn't want him to go down that early) but he was just sitting crying in his cot. So going to try again in a minute as he's really whingy
Sorry - this is quite a lot of info but thought a good few days might help you to spot a pattern. Sometimes when he's fighting naps/BT, he's just so lively, I can't believe he's not UT but I really don't know. So sick of spending ages settling him and never getting a good night's sleep.
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Oh. god, oh god, Oh god, I just tried again. He will not go down to sleep. I am totally losing my temper and I am really not proud of myself. I've tried for over half an hour. He just keeps sitting up and crying so I keep going in and laying him down, saying "it's sleepy time" and leaving the room but he will not go to sleep and although he's crying and yawning, he also seems quite awake. What the hell do I do???! And if he does eventually go to sleep I don't know how long to let him sleep for, when to do BT. I am in such a mess with this kid. I really cannot take anymore. I'm going to end up putting him in the shed.
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I've had to give up. It's 13.30 and he will not nap. He's just going to have to go without sleep today. It's ridiculous but I don't know what else to do.
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Sorry to keep posting. He couldn't' possibly be dropping the nap could he?!! That seems such a ridiculous question but seriously, since he was born, his routine has changed so fast, I cannot keep up with him. He will have the same routine for maybe 4 weeks tops, if I'm lucky, then it changes. He's sitting on the floor now playing with his toys happily. How can that be?!?!? I know I'm going to have to put him to bed early and I'm dreading it as I don't know how early to go and I know that there's just no way he will sleep right through or wake at an acceptable time after such a ridiculous day.
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Hey hun, sorry you've been through the mill today! I would definitely have been heading to the shed at various points :P
What time did you put him to bed in the end? I remember on another thread having the strong feeling that LO was probably LSN.
To me, what has happened looks like this. Earlier in the week, he woke at 6am or earlier and napped at 12.30, and generally doing an under 11 hour night with at least a 1 hr 30 nap. He had a great sleep on Tuesday night, just shy of 12 hours, with only very brief NWs and woke up at 7am. And then he didn't want a nap at 12.30, trying for an hour probably gave him a chance to rest a bit/get determined not to have a nap.
I stick to my theory that he's on the LSN side. I wouldn't say he's nap dropping, I'd say you need now to consider where his nap falls in the day - clearly it needs to be about 6 hours after WU, and might well need to be capped to preserve night sleep on days he wakes up at 7am.
On the NWs, if he's settling in seconds, is there a chance that you don't need to intervene? I would try to reduce the amount of time you have to spend out of bed.
Hope you've got some nice treat for yourself after a tough day.
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Thanks so much for looking at this. Yes you mentioned LSN before and it certainly looks like you're right. I got him to bed at 17.55 in the end - he went down with no fuss.
I've just looked back at the EASYs that I posted. On most days he generally eventually went down at 12.30 which seems a stupidly long A time on the days he woke at 5.30ish but its almost as if he's trying to assert a new set nap time. When he went to one nap I set it at 12pm regardless of A time because he had no sleepy cues. Could it be that - do I just need to attempt his nap closer to 12.30? And like you say try to work out if it needs capping?
Its ridiculous how happy he was this afternoon with no sleep....
As for the NWs I always try not to go to him - sometimes I get away with it, sometimes not. Normally if I can see on the monitor that he's sitting up, I know that means I'm eventually going to have to go in there.
Have you any theories as to why he has NWs during a long night but eventually wakes up happy but no NWs during a short night but wakes unhappy?
Must say I'm dreading tonight. ...
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I'm back. I know we concluded LO was LSN but I'm so confused....
So now, we are getting BT resistance and EWs. We get the occasional NW but they tend to be short and fairly easily settled. He goes down easily for his naps, rarely resists but every BT is a battle with us going in and out to his room. So he's going to bed around 7ish and waking between 5-5.50am with 5.50am being his favourite time.And I can't work out if this is OT/UT or something else.
His nap has gone back to happening around 12pm. He does around 2hrs - sometimes we cap it as we've really got no idea if he's fighting BT due to too much sleep. And then sometimes I'm not sure if the BT fighting is due to OT so I try to put him down earlier but that doesn't work either. The thing is, the other morning, he was really obviously tired - whining and yawning - but when it came to nap time he fought like he does at BT which he doesn't normally do. As I knew he was tired, I figured this was OT behaviour - and as he demonstrates that behaviour at BT , I'm not convinced the BT behaviour isn't OT too. Make sense??
This has been going on for a few weeks - too long for it to be teething-related I think. And I think the BT fighting started one day when he had a nap of around 2hr45 which made me think that too much day sleep was the problem (hence why we sometimes cap the nap) but we have experienced BT fighting on a nap as short as 1hr30 so...?
Here are a few days EASY (just to point out, he had a very sore bottom over the past few days and some of these wake ups were due to that - I've noted where)
WEDS
WU 5.50
S 12.05 woke crying at 13.40 - couldn't attempt to get him back to sleep as someone was at the door. So he only had 1hr 35
BT tried a bit earlier due to short nap. Took WIWO from 18.30 til 19.15 to get him to sleep. Mixture of playing and crying
THURS
WU 5.50
S 12.05 Woke himself at 14.05 (2hrs)
BT Tried at 18.30 - took 35mins - lots of crying with me in the room (turned out to be sore bottom)
NW 45 mins later (he had pooed which had irritated his sore bottom - this caused the crying at BT) Took 20mins to change and settle him
FRI
WU 5something -(can't remember exact time)
S 12 - woke at 13.20 due to sore bottom - DH changed him and he went back to sleep. DH woke him at 14.30
BT 19.10 - DH said it took 3 short returns to his room
SAT
WU 5.20
S DH was out with him at nap time so he went down slightly later at 12.15 and woke after 1hr 35
BT DH tried from 18.35. Went down at 19.00
NW 4.30
NW 5am
SUN
WU 6.50
S DH took a while to get him down at 12.15. Woke at 1hr 30. DH got him back to sleep and woke him at 14.40
BT tried from 18.45. Settled for 10mins then started crying again. Finally settled at 19.10
NW 2.15 leaked nappy. Didn't settle til around 3.30.
MON
WU 5.40 - put him in our bed and he slept until 6.40
S put him down slightly later (12.35) due to late WU. Bit of laughing and slapping me in the face but went down quickly
I think if he was going to bed with no trouble at 19.00 and waking at 5.50, I would probably accept that that is how long he sleeps at night. But why the fighting at BT if that's the case? And the occasional NWS?? Does his nap need to be pushed later ?? (Bare in mind the latest he can sleep til is about 14.45 as I have to do the school run). Any more help very much appreciated!!
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Well, all LOs wake up sometimes, so there isn't always a clear explanation. And bless his sore little bot, hope that's better now.
I think it's maybe time to take the guess work out of it. On the previous page, he was getting some solid later WUs, and that was with his nap at 12.30. If I were you, I would set his nap at that time. I would try to keep the nap at the same length for a week (I would try 1.5 hour) and see what happens. Be rigidly consistent, as much as you can, and see what impact it has.
If there is a day on which he wakes later, say 7ish, then push the nap later too, and shorten it to maybe an hour.
In the end, it depends on what's important to you as a family. I'm very keen on a predictable BT, but not everyone is as devoted to it as me.
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Hi. Yes I like predictability too! I've let him sleep today as late as I could( read this post too late) so he's had 2 hr 15 nap starting at 12.30. Do you think I should start with capping naps at 1hr 30 with a view to lengthening them if needed?
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Sorry talking nonsense. Thought it was later than it was when I was reading your post and was about to wake him but actually it was 14.35 and he woke himself. So he did 2 hrs exactly.
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Yeah, if it were me, I would try capping the nap at 1 hr 30 and see how he fares for a few days. You can let him sleep longer, or wake him earlier depending on results :)
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I agree with the above Honey, good luck!
((HUGS))
x.
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Thanks both. I will report back - or, more likely, come back with more questions!
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Thanks both. I will report back - or, more likely, come back with more questions!
LOL, we'll be here ;) x.
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I'm back :( DS is now almost 15months.
Ok, so we've had *some* success with slightly later WUs and we only get NWs on the odd occasion.
We are at the point where we are capping naps at 1.5hrs BUT we do still get some EWs plus now he's started to resist naps and BT and I don't know why. I still don't think I'm getting his sleep "right" and I just can't figure it out. His wind down routine used to be we would take him up to his room, cuddle him, he would snuggle into our shoulder getting drowsy, then we'd put him down and he'd go to sleep. But now (and this started just as Granny started looking after him 3 days a week although I really don't think it's anything to do with her as he's doing it no matter who puts him down) we take him up and the second we are in his room he is literally diving over our shoulders and struggling to get straight in the cot. We put him down, leave the room and he stands up and shouts/cries. We go back, lie him down, then he settles himself to sleep. This happens 95% of the time and is quite quick- rarely he will just go straight to sleep, sometimes we have to go back in a few times and this can take some time.
We've tried lots of things to help the EW - later/earlier nap, later/earlier BT. Seems if he wakes anytime from about 6am he seems fairly happy. If he wakes 5-something, he seems like he's still tired but he is IMPOSSIBLE to get back to sleep. Weaver, you suggested capping the nap at 1hr30 - I must admit I was reluctant to do that at first as it seemed such a short nap so I started capping at 2hrs. We were getting some OT WUs during naps at 1.5hrs where we could get him back to sleep. This made me think that capping at 1.5hrs would be too short but we were still getting EWs at this point so I thought maybe he's OT because he's having EWs and if the nap was shorter, he would sleep more at night and be more restored. So we've started capping at 1hr 30 but like I said we are getting this resistance and occasional EWs. He gives me absolutely no sleepy cues so nap and BT is total guesswork. I'm trying to stick to a BT of around 18.30 (that's the time we take him to bed).
I've searched this forum and anyone else who is having similar problems at this age is still on 2 naps but as we're on 1 I just feel like we've got nowhere to go!
So to recap - please (if you can!) any suggestions as to what the sleep resistance is about, is his routine ok, is capping the nap at 1.5hrs the right thing? Anyway I can get him to wake up later? I'd love to just let him sleep but that's not going to happen is it?! Just to note, not sure what you're going to suggest but nap time can't end any later than about 14.30/40 as we have the school run to do.
Here's our EASY for the past few days:
SUN
WU 5.50am
S messed around at nap time although looked tired. Asleep by about 12.30. Woken by knock on door at 14.05 (1hr 35) but happy
BT 18.30 - stood up and cried when I left the room, Realised he had a dirty nappy, changed him, asleep 1915
MON
WU 6.50 (this is V late for him and NEVER happens unless he's had a NW)
S took up at 12.30 - messed around a little, asleep 12.40ish. Woke at about 1hr 15, v upset. This was a strange day as he was upset a lot - possible tteething
S Stood up when I left the room as usual. Had to go back in. Asleep 19.00
TUES
WU 6.05ish
S stood up once but laid back down himself without me needing to go back into the room. Asleep 12.35. Woke him after 1.5hrs
BT in bed 18.45 but kept standing up and crying on and off. Had to keep going into him. Asleep 19.30
WEDS
W 6am
S 12.15 -went straight to sleep
BT 18.30 straight to sleep
NW 2.20 - 3.30 am. Kept settling then crying - gave meds and had to keep going into his room
THURS
WU 7.10 am - VERY Late for him but due to NW I think. But think this late waking may have given us problems over the next few days (?)
S 12.20 - cried for a bit then straight to sleep. Not sure what time he woke as DH had him this day but I do remember he didn't have a good nap (so less than 1.5hrs)
BT DH tried to get him to bed early due to short nap but he filled his nappy which delayed BT. Asleep about 18.50
FRI
WU. 5.55 sat quietly for a little while
N 12.30 v upset. Had to hold him for a little while. Woke him at 14.00 (1.5hrs)
BT 18.45ish
SAT
WU 6.10
S DH took him up at 12.15 WOULD NOT GO TO SLEEP. Was laughing and messing about in cot. Took 50 mins. Finally asleep at 13.10. Woke upset at 45mins, DH got him back to sleep. Woke himself about 14.40ish happy
BT Messed about again. Stripped his clothes and sleeping bag off. Asleep about 19.20
SUN
WU 5.15 grumpy, wanted to go back to sleep. Tried for a while - was falling asleep on me when holding him but wouldn't go back to sleep in cot. Took in our bed (rarely do this nowadays) and I think he nodded off for about 20mins. WU 6.05
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He's done exactly the same today. Took him up for his nap at 12.15 - 45 minutes of taking his sleeping bag and clothes off (had to redress him 3 times). No crying until right atthe end. Finally asleep at 13.00. Woke him after 1.5 hrs. He was a bit grumpy but ok this afternoon.
So tonight i thought ok, will try BT a little later - 18.45 - has taken his sleeping bag off once so far. Started whinging so just put him back in it. He was smiling at me but rubbing his eyes. I didn't engage with him at all other than to say goodnight. Standing and whinging at the mo. Seriously what on earth is he playing at??? There's always something with this kid! !!
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He's with granny tomorrow and I've got no idea what times/duration to tell her for nap and BT. I am totally at a loss.
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No advice here Mackjack but just wanted to say my DS went through that phase two weeks ago. So much earlier than yours but still it was tiring. Looked liked UT for me but I just kept WIWO or shhh and pat and after 1-2 weeks it solved. So I guess it was just a kind of developmental phase firstly, than time change and finally teeth here.
Maybe it's connected with time change?
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thanks Martii. Did you stick with your usual BT and nap time as well? Even if the nap ended up later because of all the messing about? By the way, i went back in and laid him down and he settled - asleep about 19.15.
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Hello Honey,
((HUGS)) at this tricky time :(. I have had a good read through and TBH my line of thought followed Marti's:
So I guess it was just a kind of developmental phase firstly
To me his behaviour screams some kind of development leap at the moment. With a varied WU I'm not sure there is much more you can do than you are already doing, because I feel like tweaking left right and centre would be unlikely to give results. I'm sorry, I know that is not what you want to hear :(.
Sorry, did you say he was teething ??? Any speech development ??? Growth spurts etc ???
Hang in there Honey, I have a feeling this will just pass, try and stick with his routine that was working best as much as you can.
But one thing, does he ever tack on sleep with an EBT ??? I am wondering if that is the only option to help him counteract OT build up.
x.
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He played the most with his BT and yes, I was waking him at 7am. His nights were shorter, we had some OT but still I couldn't thought of anything else I might do.
You know, it's also about knowing your child. My DS never refused BT or his main nap - or almost never. He fights catnap early, he will shorten his nap, he will wake occasinally early in the morning, but no such refusals. That's why I thought I will just try to go through that phase. It seemed strange to me that he refused BT no matter if his nap was 1.5 or 2.5h so... I understand that after 2.5h he may be protesting but really after whole day in the nursery and 1:30 nap he should go to bed without ANY protests.
But as I said, it took about 2 weeks. I just persisted. I guess that's the biggest difference for me now when DS is becoming a toddler is that routine is key. Like when they are younger is more a play of UT, OT, stimulation and so on - now DS will sleep well at night even when slightly OT but he starts to think:) so if something doesn't suit him, he just tests how it works:).
Persitance & consequence...:).
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Thanks Martii. I agree with you re consistency and routine but it's so hard not to start tweaking when things are going wrong!
Sammysmammy - he could be teething but I've thought that most of this year and there's nothing to show for it! He has started to sign a bit and "talks' to us a lot in gobbledygook!
EBT - recently on his 1.5hr nights he's been going to bed about 18.30 - that doesn't really make him wake much later though . I've tried EBT in the past when having issued as it used to work great with DD but quite often it *seemed* to cause NWs - although I'm not sure if they were caused by the EBT or whatever particular problem it was we were trying to solve at the time! Do you think EBT would help seeing as - like today for example - he had the same length nap he usually has but later in the day? Plus yesterday when it took D from 12.15 til 13.10 to get him to sleep and he slept 1hr30 is ( with a 45 min waking ) D tried to put him to bed at usual time 18.30 - so fairly early - but he messed about til 19.20. Do you mean a SENT?
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Sorry lots of typos - i meant SEBT.
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Morning,
I didn't mean to recommend EBT as a possibility for every day, just if the nap was early and short, to try and help him feel better. But DS always tacked on, so it was a good option for us. Hang in there, hope this passes sooner rather than later!
x.
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Ah that makes sense.
So today Granny stuck with usual nap time and took him up to bed at 12.15. He stood up and whinged and she had to go and lay him down. Said he got really upset but was asleep by 12.35. So no stripping off today!She woke him after 1.5hrs and he was happy.
DH is wondering if we should be putting him down for his nap later? This "standing up and whinging" thing has been going on about 2/3 weeks. The stripping off happened 2 days over the weekend. How long shall I give it to see if it's just a phase before i try some tweaking, do you think? Keen not to tweak unless necessary as Sammysmammy suggests as i know that can just confuse things.
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Spoke too soon...He stripped at bedtime. . Granny said he stripped twice but was asleep within 20mins
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Spoke too soon...He stripped at bedtime. . Granny said he stripped twice but was asleep within 20mins
What's going on with the stripping thing Honey ??? Do you think he is hot, or has he just learned to do it, so it developmentally chuffed with himself ??? Have you thought about dressing him in something else to see if it helps :-\
I would hang in there with the current routine a while longer Honey, this all sounds so developmental ::).
((HUGS))
x.
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I don't know what it is with the stripping!! Although he does sometimes take his top off or get his legs out of his sleep suit during the day when he's not in his cot. So maybe it is his new "thing". He stripped last night for Granny at bedtime but was asleep by about 19.05. And he slept all night til 6.30 which is an amazing wake up time for him! So like you say it might be dangerous to start tweaking. I dont know what else to dress him in as he takes tops off too?
Granny just texted to say she's put him down for his nap and he has stripped and is now singing...
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LOL, oh my goodness, I'm sure it's not funny to you but:
Granny just texted to say she's put him down for his nap and he has stripped and is now singing...
But I can just imagine this scene :) Sounds like a new skill he is chuffed with himself about to me then.
He stripped last night for Granny at bedtime but was asleep by about 19.05. And he slept all night til 6.30 which is an amazing wake up time for him!
Great news, more of the same please! x.
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Oh don't worry - it makes me laugh too even though it's frustrating! When I go into his room to put his clothes back on i do my very best not to make eye contact but he always tries to look me straight in the eye and grin like a loon! He knows I'm trying not to laugh!
So just ride it out, you think? Give him a bit of naked time during the day? Or even encourage him to strip during the day to get it out of his system???
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Still getting the strip tease every sleep time - nap time is the worst when he can keep it up for 45 mins before going to sleep. BUT he's still sleeping well at night and we are getting happy post 6 am wakeups (touch wood touch wood touch wood!!!) as opposed to unhappy pre 6 am wakeups. Just keep riding out the stripping you think? ?
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Hi Honey,
How are things ???
x.
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Still the same. Put him down today at 12.15 and hes been up there for 30 mins quiet as a mouse, taking off his sheepfold bag and playing with it. Just starting to shout now and blow raspberries and it's nearly 13.00. Tried putting him down 15 mins later yesterday and it was still 45 mins of him taking off hours bag, playing with it, me going in and putting him back in it 2 or 3 times then he went to sleep.....
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Ooh the little monkey! I'm sorry Hun, can you remind me of the routine you're shooting for right now, I don't have time to read back over the thread properly. x.
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Sure:
WU about 6.10 ( wakes happy - used to wake at 5-something unhappy til we cut nap to 1hr 30)
S take him to bed at 12.15 then 45 mins of taking sleeping bag off and playing with it - asleep at 13.00, wake him 14.30)
BT take him up about 18.30 - takes off bag etc, usually asleep between 18.45-19.00
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The routine looks good Hun, despite DS going off track from exactly what should happen ;) what you are shooting for looks good to me.
However, do you think there is ANY chance that he is UT at nap time ??? hence all the faffing about, which I do believe to be developmental, but I wonder if it is worth shooting for the nap even later ??? :-\ I do say this with some hesitancy :-X Do you think if you added morning A time on and it failed to make a difference, he would end up in melt down for the afternoon ???
Thoughts ???
x.
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I've thought the same. I wondered if i should put him down closer to 13.00 as that's the time he's falling asleep anyway. I'm just worried that if he does the same thing and messes around for 45mins it'll get too late for him to have a full nap. Think i should just bite the bullet and try it??
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I would give it a try, if you need a hand holding. One day of later nap shouldn't have some terrible consequences.
But on the other hand, is it so bad that he is going down with such a long time? I mean maybe he just starts to need a longer wind down and you should just make sure he is winding down on his own not with your attendance needed.
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I think I'd give it a shot Hun.
But on the other hand, is it so bad that he is going down with such a long time? I mean maybe he just starts to need a longer wind down and you should just make sure he is winding down on his own not with your attendance needed.
That's a good point made, it's a very good thing that he's not upset, but I understand what it's like when you're stressed about your LO's sleep and you're just observing and waiting to see what's going to happen and when!? ::)
x.
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Yes you're right its not the worst thing in the world.... but I will give the later nap a try. If that doesn't work I will just accept that he likes a good faff around before sleep time! Wish me luck - will let you know what happens!
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Good Luck!!!! x.
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Keeping my fingers crossed:)!
If he still needs the same time - I would consider just making a nice & cozy atmosphere for him for a wind down in his cot:
- maybe eliminate sleeping bag or find one which he cannot unzip, maybe use a duvet only for naps?
- me fluffy toys to put in his cot (I guess it's safe at that age)
- think of some sleeping suit he can't take off him?
and even start to communicate to him that's fine he needs some tossing and waffling before nap time, but he should stay quiet in his cot as this is rest time.
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Ok tried a slightly later nap today - put him down at 12.45 (usually 12.15). He took his sleeping bag off as usual but was asleep by 13.15. So it took 30 mins instead of the usual 45 mins - not sure if that's a significant enough difference to tell me anything. ..??
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Hi Hun,
How long was the nap? If a decent length I'd try the same again tomorrow.x.
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Well to be honest I woke him at 14.30 as a) I'm a bit scared to let him sleep later than that and b) I have to leave for the school run about 14.50.
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That's good, I was just checking it wasn't a crazy short nap. How did BT go, and are you shooting for the later nap today ???
((HUGS))
x.
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BT was fine. He took his bag off one but was asleep by 18.50. He was up a little bit earlier this morning - not sure when as i woke at 6 and he was already sitting up in his cot. But he was happy.
Yes am going to go for a later nap again. Do you think i should let him do the full 1hr 30 even if it means waking a bit later than 14.30? Because he did look tired when i woke him yesterday afer just 1hr 15?
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Do you think i should let him do the full 1hr 30 even if it means waking a bit later than 14.30?
What did you do Honey ??? TBH I would have said to go with your gut, suck it and see so to speak. Finger's crossed it works out well :-*
x.
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Hello. Well i went for the later nap again. Same nonsense - took bag off twice. After the second time i just spoke to him through the door and told him "lay down, sleepy time"(er, quite sternly i must admit....alright i shouted. Not proud). He laid down and went to sleep about 13.20. To answer your question though I did let him sleep a little later - 14.45 - as he'd gone down pretty late - hope i don't get an EW. He's just settling for bed now - he took his bag off once which is the usual at BT.
I know this is not the worst sleep problem in the world but it is starting to really get on my nerves now. Why can't he just settle? He won't even entertain the idea of letting me help him wind down by holding him and singing a lullaby which is what he used to do. He is just desperate to get in the cot but then messes about when he's in there.
Interestingly, when granny had him the other day he was in the car at nap time and had a micro nap so wouldn't go down for his nap at all when she got home. So she put him to bed at 6 pm - he went straight to sleep and didn't wake til 6.20 am. Although she did at he got tired late morning the next day. He's going to do the 1-0 at a really young age isn't he?!
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She did *say*
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After the second time i just spoke to him through the door and told him "lay down, sleepy time"(er, quite sternly i must admit....alright i shouted. Not proud).
BTDT, forgive yourself, you are human, and this nonsense is stressful!!
Interestingly, when granny had him the other day he was in the car at nap time and had a micro nap so wouldn't go down for his nap at all when she got home. So she put him to bed at 6 pm - he went straight to sleep and didn't wake til 6.20 am. Although she did at he got tired late morning the next day. He's going to do the 1-0 at a really young age isn't he?!
That is very interesting Hun. The fact that he seem really tired the next day isn't a bad thing, because that is what happens after a really good night, they get more tired because they are opening up the gates to be able to sleep more, as in 'sleep begets sleep' I am wondering about a really long A time to start with, so pushing the nap out further and capping at 1.15, initially seeing what happens at BT, and if no change, capping again 15 minutes at a time. Hmm TBH I think IIWM at this point I may even start capping at an hour now, it seems that maybe what he needs is a short nap and a good long night, what do you think ???
Faffing about without being upset is almost always UT, even though of course he can be holding accumulated OT at the same time ::).
What do you think Hun ???
What time was WU today and night length ???
Many ((HUGS)) when these things go on for so long it really does try your patience.
x.
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Hi Sammysmammy. Thanks so much for your support. He was asleep last night just after 7 and woke 5.55. He did seem really tired this late morning today. I'm not sure if the later naps are making him a but tired. BUT more importantly than that i just put him down for a nap with a blanket instead of a sleeping bag and although he sat headbutting the blanket for a while (?!) he was asleep within 10 mins with no intervention needed!!!! Now I'm not sure if this was just a fluke because he was tired - or could all this just be that he simply doesn't like his sleeping bags anymore??! What do you think - keep trying a blanket and see what happens then if that doesn't help, cut the naps as you suggest?
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I would definitely go with the blanket for naps. Maybe is not that he doesn't like sleeping bag but sometimes kids think of that kind of gadgets as a thing to play...:).
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Ooh interesting! I think like Marti says stick with the blanket and you'll soon have your answer Hun.x.
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Ok so the blanket thing is going well. He does throw it out the cot sometimes but he is settling much much quicker - within 5-10 mins and without me having to intervene at all. All im having to do is go in his room and cover him over once he's asleep.
BUT
EWs are back!! He's woken between 5.40-5.50 the last 3 days. It's like he's saying I can either have him settling well or walking up at a decent time but not both! Aaargh! !
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*waking*
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Hon so probably time to cut the nap or putting him down slightly later? It worked last time?
I would still stick to this routine up to a week. He might hit used to new length of night and maybe he needs couple of days to get back to "normal"
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((HUGS)) Sweetie, agree with Marti.x.
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Sorry do you mean stick with what I'm doing at the moment for a week before I think about cutting the nap?
We did have a couple of weird nap days admittedly - one where he woke upset after 1hr 20 and when I brought him downstairs he fell asleep on me for 20mins which has never happened before and then one day where he woke at 1hr 15 but he went back to sleep v quickly when I went in to him but I only let him have another 15 mins. But yesterday was a normal 1hr 30 nap day but he woke at 5.50 am this morn.
It's just really typical of him to finally get into a good routine and then within about 3 weeks it needs changing again. ...
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Still getting EWs. Can his sleep needs go up? ?? Because he seems tired. I'm putting him down for his nap about 12.15 and there's a little messing around but hes settling fairly quickly but when I wake him at the usual 1hr 30 he is really grumpy and does not want to get up. BT - I've tried to get him down early but the best I've managed is that he's asleep by 6.45 (usual faffing about with sleeping bag but not that much). Then he is having a 2 second moan about 5am and then waking at 5.55. When he wakes he sounds grumpy and doesn't just sit there quietly like he has been. Once I go into him he's ok but the initial wake up is grumpy.
Could this kid keep me on my toes anymore??? Any (more!!) thoughts??
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Also he's been acting tired mid mornings. He was falling asleep on DH yesterday about 9.30/10 am.
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Hi Sweetie,
In a rush just sending some ((HUGS)) for now, so sorry for the late reply, I will be back, maybe with fresh eyes.
x.
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Don't apologise - appreciate your help so much!! Thank you so much - hopefully hear from you later!
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Just a quick thought. Are you going into the last WW or is it too early? We always have a period of very tired kid just shy of stormy period.
Of course he might be also OT after shorter nights and 1.5h naps.
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TBH, I've never really looked into WWs and don't really know much about them! so it could be, I don't know!
He's actually poorly tonight and has just woken a couple of times. So i guess all bets re sleep are off for the moment.
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Hi Hun, I'm sorry things are a bit rough right now. I'm just popping in as an extra set of eyes to see if there's anything different I can offer. I've read back through but it's a long thread so I wonder if you could just briefly tell me how old LO is right now and what the current routine looks like? ((Hugs))
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Sure - sorry I know this thread has dragged on!
He is 15 months.
WU about 5.55 - when he was waking after 6 he would be happy to sit in his cot but since he's started EWing again he wakes moaning.
S asleep by about 12.30. I wake him at 1hr 30. Again he used to wake happy but has been really grumpy recently.
BT asleep by about 18.45
He's still taking his sleeping bag off and messing around a little bit at sleep times but nowhere near as much as he was - he can settle within about 10 mins.
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Is he teething right now? Have you thought about trying a dream meds (sneak in around 3am?) to see if it helps?
My feeling would be in this situation to rule out overtiredness first. If he was really LSN I would have thought his EWs and waking from nap would be happy, and since his nap is pretty short for an average 15mo (bear in mind many are still on 2 naps at this age) I would think a trial of an earlier/longer nap may be reasonable, even if just for a few days. How about putting him down 15-30 mins earlier, you can still cap by waking at the same time as usual if you want but he would have had 1h45-2h nap instead of the 1h30. Maybe try for a few days and then reassess? If things get drastically worse you'll know to go in the opposite direction.
Just to compare my DD was by no means high sleep needs, dropped to one nap from around 10/11 months on most days. But at 15 months was doing WU 6.30/7, nap at 11.45 for anywhere 30 mins (thanks nursery....) to 3h, with a 6/6.30pm BT. Probably averaging closer to 2h over the week. So although certainly true LSN babies are around, I would have thought ruling out overtiredness first would be sensible. It's always easy to cut sleep back again :)
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I'm back And I'm a big ball of bad-tempered frustration.
Firstly, Jessmum - so sorry I didn't respond to your advice. TBH, things had levelled out a bit and he was waking happy so I didn't attempt giving him a longer nap. Completely understand why you're suspecting OT but as I say, things seemed ok for a while (and I'm scared of a longer nap causing extra problems!).
Reason I'm back is that he is still fighting/messing about at nap and BT. And he's EW too. I put him down for sleep and he strips, throws his duvet out of the cot,blows raspberries etc. In fact, when I put him in his cot he won't even lay down, I just have to leave the room with him standing in his cot. The messing about is sometimes over fairly quickly at naptime but at BT it can go on for up to an hour. He is definitely teething at the moment as I can see two molars but I don't believe this is down to teething as it started ages ago and has been going on forever. Recently on some nights he has got quite upset at BT and when I've gone into his room, he's wanted a cuddle, which I've given because I know he's teething - on these occasions, usually the cuddle works and he will go to sleep once I've put him down. There has been the odd night/nap where he's gone straight down easily or just laid there chatting for a few mins before nodding off but this is v rare.
And he's EWing about 5.40/50 in the morning - he seems happy when he wakes though, even on nights where he's not fallen asleep til 8pm because he's been messing about so much.
So I tried cutting his nap from 1hr30 to 1hr 20. He went to bed easily the first night but over the next few days, it made no difference. Then one day, I tried giving him just an hour for a nap but he woke the next morning at 4.40 and I couldn't get him back to sleep til almost 6am. But like I say he was definitely teething then so I don't know if that was the culprit. BTW, I always have to wake him from his naps and he usually seems v tired and sometimeswhen I take him downstairs, he tries to go back to sleep on me.
The routine that seemed to work for a while was:
WU 6.15ish
Nap 12.30 for 1.5hrs
BT 6.30 - asleep about 6.45/7
This is still what I'm aiming for but the messing about makes the S times later. And the WU time is earlier.
I thought I'd try cutting the nap to an hour again so I did that today and he's been messing about for about 40mins. Mix of stripping off/crying.
I don't know what to do but I can't spend every night/nap losing my temper and shouting at him like some sort of monster.
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To be clear on that last bit - What I meant is, he had an hour's nap today and I've just put him down for BT and he''s been messing about for about 40mins but is asleep now. I think.
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So he went to sleep about 7.15, brief NW at about 21.15 and woke this morning at 5.50am.
Nap today was the usual struggle. Didn't play and mess about really but started moaning as soon as I put him in his cot. Threw his duvet out and started doing a moaning intermittent cry. As it wasn't a distressed cry (and I'm fed up of going in and out of his room) I left him to it for 10 mins. Eventually got fed up and annoyed so went into his room - he looked red and upset but would not lay down. I got annoyed, laid him down and shouted and left the room. He moaned twice then went to sleep. I feel awful about losing my temper yet again. Only let him sleep an hr and when I woke him he was really upset to be woken and has fallen asleep on me. I'm not sure 1hr naps are the way to go are they? I'm just giving in today and going to let him sleep as long as he wants What's the worst that can happen?? He fights BT and wakes up early in the morning anyway!!! I guess he could really give us a treat and throw in a nice long NW....
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Hi Sweetie, I'm away visiting family at the moment, and pushed to get on. Some of my fellow mods are going to keep an eye out and I'll be here whenever I can, I will ask them to take a look at this thread, but maybe a summary would help in the meantime.
Sorry Hun, I'll be back :-*
x.
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I would think he needs some more sleep now so let us know how long he napped and how the night went Hon.
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I agree, I do think it all sounds like OT right now. If it's all a mess anyway I would go right back to uncapped naps for a while, keep track and then let's see what comes of it x
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Hi all. He slept til 14.50 in the end - so about 2 hrs (minus the short period when I woke him after an hr and brought him downstairs and he fell back to sleep).
DH took him up to bed at 18.50. He said he seemed like he "wanted" to go to bed as he picked up a book and lifted his arms to be picked up. Messed about and stripped off once in his cot - DH had to go in his room about 3 times. Asleep just before 19.30.
He's 16 months now, BTW. Happy to summarise as Sammysmammy said (this is a long thread! ) - what info would be helpful?
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Typical WU, nap and BT, what time you pd and what time he actually sleeps. How you respond when he's not settling. What he does when he wakes (plays/screams etc) and any issues with NWs xx
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Sorry for the silence - he has chicken pox so I've been a little preoccupied! Obviously while he's ill, I'm just letting him sleep when he can so I won't be trying to implement any new routine you suggest til he's better.
So to answer your Qs - for a few weeks, I was letting him have just a 1hr 30 nap. This seemed to help with grumpy EWs he was having. He would maybe mess about a little bit at nap time but be asleep within 10mins. BT he would mess around for longer but it wasn't too bad.So typical EASY looked like this:
WU 6.15
S 12.30 asleep by about 12.40, wu about 14.10
BT 18.30 - asleep by 18.45/19.00
No NWs
But now he is messing about at nap and BT and is WU early (happy) in the morning (around 5.45). BT is the worst and can take sometimes an hour for him to settle. I put him in his cot and he just stands there so I leave the room. He will then throw his duvet out the cot and take his pyjamas off. He'll blow raspberries, start shaking his cot bars. Eventually he'll start doing a whingy cry until I go in - like "whinge, whinge, pause, whinge, whinge, pause" etc. Often I can see on the monitor that he's rubbing his eyes too as though tired. When I go in, I dress him, try to interact as little as possible, no eye contact and tell him to lay down - he WILL NOT lay down and is often smiling at me so again I just leave the room and the whole thing repeats. I've tried ignoring him when he's doing the whingy cry but it always eventually leads to a proper cry.
When DH goes to settle him, he more often than not lays straight down and sometimes DH can settle him quite quickly. DH tends to go in as soon as the whinging starts (this doesn't work for me) but I think he should try to wait as long as possible til he does a proper cry as otherwise it's like it's becoming a game i.e. "I whinge a bit and mummy/daddy come running".
I tried cutting his nap to an hour for two days running. The first day it made no difference to BT/WU time. The second day, as I mentioned in a post above, he was absolutely shattered when I woke him and fell back asleep on me BUT it was the next day that he came down with chicken pox so I don't know if that played a part.
So EASY at the moment looks something like this
WU 5.45
S PD at 12.30 - asleep by about 13.00 for 1hr 30
BT PD at 18.30 asleep by about 19.30
I just don't know what else to do. Is he OT after all these weeks of being fine on a 1hr 30 nap? Does he need to nap longer? Does nap/BT need to be later? Honestly, I get so, so frustrated by it, I've considered not letting him have a nap at all but I know that he can't possibly be dropping his nap so young.
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Just an idea Hon - I see periods when my DS needs longer naps/nights. Usually it's 1-2 weeks, and id driven by teething, growth spurt, getting on track after illness or wonder week. So maybe when you were capping you missed this part and that's why he became so OT. It happened to me during Xmass 2014 when I was capping DS's first to 1.5h to squeeze in another nap in the afternoon. And out of a sudden despite doing 1.5h first nap, he was ready for his afternoon nap much earlier and after sleeping 30min, he still barely managed to get till normal BT. Now with being on on uncapped nap I also see this. Weeks on 1.5 with sporadical 2h are fine, but out of a sudden he did 2 weeks of almost only 1:45-2h naps at 14.5mo. WDYT?
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I'm willing to consider anything! So are you saying that you think hes OT and that's what's causing the messing about? So I should try longer naps?
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I would x
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So if I put him down at the normal time ( 12.30) how long do you think I should let him sleep? And then should i put him down for BT at the same time (18.30)?
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i would let uncapped and normal bt for once.
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Hi. Just thought I'd tell you - yesterday he fell asleep in the car in the morning for about 30 mins and then just would not go down for his nap later (unsurprisingly). By about 3.30pm it was a fight to keep him awake. So we put him to bed at 6 pm, he mess about/ stripped off for 10 mins but was asleep by 6.15 and bar a 2 min WU at 11pm that just required a quick cuddle, he slept all night til 6.15am. Should I/do you read anything into that? ??
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Sorry to keep posting. He's in his cot now (bt) and hes thrown his duvet out and is whinging on and off and then throwing in a few raspberries. I'm so fed up of this. I dont know how to deal with it. If I go and give back his duvet he will just throw it out again, if I leave him he will eventually Start crying and I will have to go in - either way it's like I'm giving in to his "game". It just makes me feel so angry and frustrated because I can't break the chain. It's every night and slightly less at nap time and I spend all day dreading BT.
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Hi Hun, sorry I've been AWOL. I'm not up to speed, but just want to send ((HUGS)) and to say I have BTDT. IIWM right now I would be sitting sideways by his cot with no eye contact, saying nothing but 'sleepy time' every now and then, and only if you feel you need to. If he throws his blanket just leave it on the floor, the way I used to do with blankies when DS would throw them. If he actually wants it back leave it for an extra minute every time before returning it, and just be there but don't interact. Even if he cries, it's okay, don't worry, he will be fine as long as you are there, just try and break the chain by not interacting at all.
I'm so sorry you're feeling so frustrated Hun, it is so hard. Remember this too shall pass. Maybe take a cheeky glass of wine in there with you ;).
Many ((HUGS))
Vicki.x.
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Hi Vicki. Thank you so much. It actually wasn't too bad in the end. I let him whinge and when it started to turn into more of a cry I went in his room. I expected him to just stand there messing about like he usually does but he laid down and was snuggling into his cot. I put the duvet back over him, stroked his head a little and left the room. Then he went to sleep.
So do you think staying in the room is better than going in and out ( as I have been?). I'm at that stage where I worry that any/everything I do is going to lead to some new annoying habit!!! X
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If that help or reassure you Mackjack, I really like Vicky's advice and believe that could benefit for you.
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So do you think staying in the room is better than going in and out ( as I have been?). I'm at that stage where I worry that any/everything I do is going to lead to some new annoying habit!!! X
On the face of it, it seems to me that WI/WO is winding you both up, so maybe a change of tack is needed, but it's only a suggestion. If he settling well without you there, then it could be more than needed. I think he already has created an annoying habit ;) and what you are doing is help him break it.
I totally get that it seems like a 'game' as DS is 5 and I still feel that way, but remind myself there is always a 'reason' behind the nonsense, and once that reason is dealt with/goes away the nonsense stops. I mean, when I am tired and go to bed I wouldn't 'choose' to throw off my duvet, blow raspberries and cry ;) ;D.
x.
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You're right, WIWO is driving everyone involved mad but you're also right that I need to find the root of the problem.
I tried giving him an uncapped nap the other day, like someone suggested - well, I say "uncapped", I actually woke him just before the 3 hr mark. BT that night was a disaster. He took 1hr 40 to go to sleep - the usual throwing his PJs, duvet out the cot etc. So that day looked like this
WU 6.20am (he had a NW for 40mins from 3am - think this was just a hangover from where he was getting over the chicken pox)
S nodded off in the car, managed to get him in his cot and he slept from 12.40 - 15.30
BT took him up at 18.30 and he didn't go to sleep til 20.10
He woke the next morning at 6.45am
So in the meantime we've gone back to our usual routine of
WU between 5.30- just before 6
S take him to bedroom about 12.30, messes about a bit but can sometimes be asleep by about 12.45 and we wake him after 1hr 30
BT take up to bed at 18.30 - asleep between about 18.50-19.30 after he's messed around
Do you think an earlier nap might make a difference? Think someone suggested this in an earlier post. There just seems to be so many combinations of nap length/time and BT time to try that I don't know what to try first. My mum (who looks after him when I'm at work) says she sometimes thinks he looks tired between about 10.30/11am and suggested I put him down for a nap then. What do you think - try it? And if so, should I cap or not? Or would this encourage EW? It does seem a shame that when he naps he could seemingly sleep for hours but we're usually waking him at 1hr 30.
It's just odd that having a nap at 12.30 for 1hr 30 and BT at about 18.30 seemed to be working for quite a while and we were getting morning WUs of about 6.15 with that routine (which suits me fine!). But the messing about at sleep time is getting worse and the WUs are getting earlier (although they are happy WUs). I also mentioned in an earlier post that he fell asleep one morning in the car for about 30mins and then wouldn't nap. He was shattered by about 15.30 but he went to bed at 18.00, asleep by 18.15 and except for a couple of minute NW at 23.00, he slept til 6.15am. I don't know what to make of that (if anything?).
Be honest, do I just need to give up, stick with things as they are (messing about for ages at sleep time, capping nap at 1hr 30 and EWs) and hope they improve???
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Ugh, it really is messy isn't it Hun. Please don't think that I don't know how that feels, it literally drives me loop the loop! Forgive me, as I haven't read back over the whole thread, but just reading your last post, I am wondering if his nap is too late :-\ and could do with moving earlier, even if it's just while you try and get things back on track. My thinking is this: A long nap results in a worse BT. However, the later the nap the longer the LO needs to/will sleep. So if you aim for something like this:
WU 6.00 (if that is when he wakes naturally right now ???)
Nap 11.00 to 12.30.
BT 7.00
Maybe it would work. All depending on if he will take the nap that early ??? It will be more restorative and if he doesn't wake naturally he will be easier to wake. It gives him a good long afternoon of 6.5 as opposed to his 5 hour morning, which would hopefully mean BT is less of a struggle.
I have done this with DS successfully during regressions while he was still on one nap as he was always willing to nap earlier when OT.
Thoughts ???
x.
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Thank you, that's exactly what I've been wondering so it's great that you've tried this with your LO and had results. Right - I'm going to give it a try! Will report back! !
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Good luck Hun, I'm glad we were thinking alike.x.
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Me too me too:). I also think the same if that encourages you to do it Mackjack. Some good sleep books I read don't even suggest nap moving/pushing further than 12noon. Between 1 and 2yo this nap is going to be shorter and shorter but that's fine as that makes kiddos ready for BT at 7pm.