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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Molliesdaniels on February 05, 2015, 15:39:42 pm

Title: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 05, 2015, 15:39:42 pm
Hello - So, when our daughter was 9 months, we did CIO with great success and she has slept well ever since.  She went down awake, we left the room and she was asleep with no crying in minutes.  She's 20 months old now and a few weeks ago, she started waking up during the night and we would pick her up and settle her and she'd go back to sleep.  This progressed to us basically holding her all night, every night for a week.  We went to the dr and she had a slight ear infection and is starting her 2 year molars.  The ear infection is clear now and the molars are settling down, but the inability to fall asleep alone is still there.  We've stopped picking her up during the night and only go in and sit on the floor until she goes back to sleep.  I know we need to get her to go back to sleep on her own without us there, but I'm not sure how to make that leap.  She seems to be having some separation issues as she clings to me all day and has started crying again when I leave her at school (which she hasn't done in months).  Any advice would be appreciated!  Thank you
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: weaver on February 05, 2015, 20:57:35 pm
Hello and welcome to BW.

We do not condone or support CIO in any form on this site.  Tracy Hogg (the Baby Whisperer) felt strongly that it broke the bond of trust between parent and child. And I think you can see in the current situation that it does not provide tools for you or LO to deal with what's going on.  Here is some very recent research on it that might assist you in seeing why:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201407/parents-misled-cry-it-out-sleep-training-reports

If you wish to try gentler methods, we will be very happy to help.  But I must reiterate that CIO is not part of the ethos.
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 05, 2015, 21:02:13 pm
Hi and welcome to the site :)

I'll ask someone to move this over to the toddler sleep board for you as your LO is over one.

Sorry to hear you've had bad nights recently.  Could you perhaps post her normal routine with WU, nap and BT for us? 

Has the ear infection settled and have you been giving pain meds for teething?  Those 2y molars can be brutal, my DD had some real separation anxiety like behaviour including at night while they were coming through.  I even ended up sleeping on her floor at one point just to get us both some rest.  To be honest with a previously independent sleeper if there is pain/discomfort at play I would do what is necessary to help her settle until you are sure the pain has gone.  In my experience LOs go back to settling normally once the pain has resolved. 

That said, I'm not sure how familiar you are with BW but we don't support CIO as a method of sleep training as there is good evidence to show that it can damage the bond of trust between LO and caregiver.  Not said to judge as we all make different decisions in our parenting and what is right for our families.  But from our point of view it would affect how we would suggest you go about getting her to settle alone again.  Given she is showing some separation anxiety as well then gradual withdrawal would probably be the best method to choose - Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE) (ignore the info on WIWO for now).  This is a gentle way to maintain her trust that you will be there if she needs you but to gently encourage her to have the confidence to settle alone again.

What do you think?

(Posted with Weaver)
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 06, 2015, 20:22:48 pm
Great!  I don't want her to cry 😞 she wakes up around 6, naps from about 12-1:30 and is in bed around 7. Her ears are clear now. Thanks!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 07, 2015, 19:18:09 pm
Routine doesn't look bad for her age, I wonder if it may be worth trying out an earlier BT for a while though given she has been having disturbed nights?  Let us know if you need help coming up with a GW plan :)
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 08, 2015, 02:43:52 am
I will take all the help I can get!  Tonight we started a bath at about 6:15 and then put on pajamas, prayed and read from 6:40 - 7.  I sat with her for a few minutes while she settled down and then I put her in her bed.  She cried for a minute and I rubbed her back and stepped away.  She settled down and I kept moving closer to the door.  I stayed for about 10 minutes total, but when I walked out she started fussing.  I watched her on the monitor and she was just standing in her bed calling my name.  I went in when she actually started crying and settled her again very quickly and then sat by the door until she was asleep.  She stood up a few times while I was sitting there, but laid herself back down without me having to say anything.  The whole process took about 40 minutes.  I'm worried about what will happen if she wakes up during the night because that's the part that is proving to be most difficult.  She either wakes up and stays awake for a long time or wakes up often during the night. 
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 08, 2015, 09:17:21 am
That sounds like a great start. For now I would try just sitting by the door until she goes off seeing as she was able to settle like that last night.  Same at NWs. Then in a couple of days when she is hopefully settling a little easier you could move to sit in the doorway, then a couple of days later outside the door, then finally outside with door closed. How did your night go?
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 08, 2015, 12:21:21 pm
Thank you. Our night was not the best or the worst. She woke up at 11 and I sat by the door for about 20 minutes while she styled back down. She woke up again at 1:30 and my dh did the same. She woke up about a half an hour later and he did the same. We've been sitting by the door for 3 nights with the door shut. Should we open it and move into the doorway or just outside?  I feel like this won't resolve until she sees us leave the room while she's awake. i just want my IS back 😉
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 08, 2015, 12:28:13 pm
I just woke up and realized that at some point, he went back in and slept on her floor with her and they're still sleeping.
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 08, 2015, 13:12:48 pm
They must both be tired!

Yes if she is settling well with you sitting by the door and door shut then I would move on to sitting in the open doorway.  It's not a big move and you should be able to sit outside the door with it part open in 2-3 days, followed by being outside the shut door.  Remember the aim of this is gradual changes to build up her confidence and maintain trust.  To me it sounds like you are doing really well :). Consistency is key though so maybe a gentle word with DH ;)
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 08, 2015, 16:42:29 pm
Thank you. We're all miserably tired. My dh tried to take her for a run this morning and had to come back because she was falling asleep in the stroller after a few minutes. Do you think I should try to put her down a little earlier tonight to where she might be asleep by 7 instead of just getting into bed by 7?  She seems so OT. Are there any threads about success stories for this method with toddlers?  We could use a little encouragement today!  Thank you again
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 08, 2015, 16:43:22 pm
Also, our gro clock should come in tomorrow. Should I implement it right away or wait a bit?  Thanks!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 09, 2015, 12:19:55 pm
Yesterday for her nap, she talked and played in her bed for 30 minutes and then slept an hour. I went in and rubbed her back for a second and then sat again by the door. She slept for 2 more hours. Last night went well. She was in bed at 7 and sang and played until 7:30 while I sat in the door with it open. She slept until 5:30. I guess we will try the same for nap today and bed tonight. Could you tell me what to do if all continues to go well with this step today and tomorrow?  Thank you so much!!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 09, 2015, 13:14:35 pm
You are doing so well!

I would suggest next move should be you sit outside the door and either have it partway closed or open but sit out of her line of sight.  That was a good night considering she had a 3h nap - at that age anything more than 1h45 or so robbed our nighttime sleep so just something to bear in mind as you move forwards.

I know one of the TS mods has used GW many times with great success so I will flag up this thread to her if you need more help/encouragement - she's away at the moment but should be back in the next few days :)

What's your feeling on the gro clock?  I would probably suggest waiting until the next stage of GW where you are putting her down then leaving her room (at that stage you are then into WIWO if she is not settling well) and then you can implement it.  It's important to set up for success, so if typical WU at the moment is 5.30am set it initially for that time so she succeeds right away.  Then gradually move it forwards a few minutes at a time until it's at what you would think of as a reasonable WU time :)

Any questions on the clock - I use something similar for my DD and love it! 
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: weaver on February 09, 2015, 13:29:03 pm
Does look like a very long nap to me.  She might be making up for OT, as you said she was very OT before.  I'd watch for a pattern developing of these long naps followed by NWs, particularly if they are long NWs, that'll tell you that she's getting too much day time sleep. Mind you, you're generally aiming for a 13 hour day (I think?) so perhaps she might need a longer nap than LOs doing 12 hrs as standard.

GW sounds like it's going really well, as Katherine says.  Key word is 'gradual' so if she's getting upset about something, try going slightly backwards (iyswim).
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 09, 2015, 13:34:49 pm
Thanks!  I guess I just didn't know with being out of her sight, how will she know I'm there?  I don't typically say anything to her while she's settling. I guess I'm a little confused about when it goes from gw to wi/wo?  What do I wait for before I go in?  Sorry so many questions, I just want to avoid a set back.

My feeling on the clock is to wait until she is back closer to be an IS again and then use it to teach her about staying in bed longer. 5:30 is not her typical wake up time. It's usually 6, which is fine. Her typical nap is 90 minutes. I let her sleep yesterday due to the massive sleep deficit she's accrued.  She always responds to a regression by waking early. Typically, she extends her wake time as she gets back to normal. She's never had a regression this severe either.

Thank you again!

Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: weaver on February 09, 2015, 13:42:10 pm
how will she know I'm there?
If she needs to you respond because she's upset, you can speak to her - in a calm quiet (really monotonous :P) voice.  My LO2 liked to throw in all kinds of crazy questions, sometimes the best thing is not to respond to what is being said, but to say 'I'm here for you', or even, just 'yes'.  If she is upset because she can't see you, then edge yourself back inside the door for a night or two.  Then try being outside again.  Trial and error!  You'll get there.

Here's a refresher on WI/WO for you.  IMO, it's not yet the appropriate tool for you to be using, I think she needs to be a bit more settled in herself and comfortable about the bedtime routine.  So this might be some weeks off.   In essence, it's just reminding them 'hey it's time to go to sleep' and then leaving.  Up to you of course.  Have a look and see what you think.
Getting back on track using Walk In/Walk Out (WI/WO)
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 09, 2015, 13:59:36 pm
That's fine. Should I wait until she's sleeping solidly through the night before I do WI/WO or will one probably not happen without the other?  The bedtime routine of sitting with her is not that bothersome to me, it's the NW that are killing me softly!  Can't thank you enough for your time 😊
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 10, 2015, 15:12:22 pm
UPDATE:  Yesterday she went down for her nap in about 10 minutes and slept for about 1 hr 15 minutes.  She was very tired in the afternoon and went down to bed with no crying in about 10 minutes.  She slept until midnight and woke up sort of crying.  I waited a bit and then went in when it started escalating.  When I walked in, she immediately laid down on her pillow and started laughing.  She went to sleep in just a few minutes and slept until 6 am.  I think we are making progress!  Knock on wood!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: weaver on February 10, 2015, 15:44:53 pm
Sounds great :)  Well done LO and mama!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 11, 2015, 09:33:20 am
Great job!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 11, 2015, 18:34:27 pm
Thanks - Last night was the same, but this morning she is super hyper and wired.  She's been laying in her bed singing for an hour fighting her nap.  I'm not sure what's going on with that?
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 11, 2015, 19:39:05 pm
If she's had a better night than she has for quite a while, perhaps UT?  Whats your instinct?
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 11, 2015, 21:16:11 pm
I think she's just feeling good and having fun for the first time in awhile.  I think it'll level out.  She did end up sleeping for just under an hour after singing and talking in her bed for an hour. 
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 12, 2015, 09:51:07 am
Ugh so she took forever again to go to bed last night (40 minutes). She woke up at 10:30 and I went in and laid her down and she went right back to sleep. It's now 3:45 am and she's been up since 2:30. Last night I moved out of her line of sight. Is it normal to feel like you're starting all over when you take the next step away?  Lord have mercy I must have said shh 6,582 times in the last hour and fifteen minutes!  I even gave her some tylenol about an hour ago.  ::)
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 13, 2015, 10:40:27 am
Tonight has been one of the worst nights so far 😞 I feel like we're moving backwards. She's woken up every 2 hours calling for me. I try to let her alone but it escalates quickly and she's trying to climb out of her crib. I go in and lay her down and shhh her for a second and walk out. A couple of times I've had to go back in, but she seems to be going down ok as soon as she has a little pat. I did give her some ibuprofen after the 3rd wake up and she slept her longest stretch (3 hours) after. Any advice/help would be appreciated. Thank you!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 13, 2015, 13:04:57 pm
It could be regression (very very common after a few nights - it's like their last-ditch attempt at seeing if you're serious about it) or it could be she's caught up on sleep debt and needs a routine adjustment.  What's her day looking like now?
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 13, 2015, 13:16:10 pm
Ok - her day looks like this
6 up - this doesn't really vary no matter how much or how little she sleeps
Breakfast shortly after
9 am snack
11 lunch
11:30-12 down for nap and naps 1:15-1:30 hours
2:30-3 snack
5-5:30 dinner
6:15 start bedtime routine / bath, books, prayer and bed
In bed at 7 and it's been taking her 15-30 minutes to go to sleep
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 13, 2015, 13:19:56 pm
You could try pushing her nap to start a little later, we had to do that around the 18 month mark (common time for sleep regression too).  The longer awake time in the morning may make her more tired for bedtime x
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 13, 2015, 13:28:35 pm
Ok, I'll try that today. I try to stick to a time close to the one they use at school (she goes 2 days a week). I think I may be going in too quickly at night. I try to wait until she's actually crying, but head her off before she gets really upset. Am I on the right track?  Last night I slept in the guest room, which is right next to hers. I was able to just call out to her a couple of times when she woke up. Is that ok for now?  I'm just trying not to linger too long in one step/phase of training that makes another association to have to break later. Such a fine line!  Thank you again for all of your help!!!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 13, 2015, 19:45:08 pm
If anyone could help me before bedtime, I would be forever in your debt  :) :) :)
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 15, 2015, 14:51:42 pm
Sorry not to have got to you before now, how are things?

It sounds like you are handling the night wakings fine x

Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 18, 2015, 09:33:39 am
Things are still a little up and down. We went to walk in/walk out about 5 nights ago and it worked great. She actually even slept through a couple of times. She even told me bye a couple of times before i walked out. That was nice!  She's still having at least 1 nw though. Most of the time I can walk in, lay her down and walk out and that's it. Tonight has been harder. I had to sit by the door a little bit for her just a bit ago (it's 3:30 am) and I'm out of the door now and listening to her try to settle. Her top molars are breaking through and she has no other illness. Oh and she's also gone to waking up at 5:15 am or so, so she's now sleeping from about 7:30-5:15 with at least 1 nw. Thanks in advance for any advice 😊
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 18, 2015, 13:08:28 pm
Are you medicating for teeth?

What's her naptime now?
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 18, 2015, 13:18:55 pm
Yes. We alternate between tylenol and ibuprofen for teeth at night (she's fine during the day, just chewing on everything). She's napping from about 11:30-1 when she's up at 5 and about 12-1:30 when she's up closer to 6. She goes down pretty easy for her naps (knock on wood!!!!)
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 19, 2015, 13:10:17 pm
I would set her nap time actually, if you let her nap early on EW days it may well reinforce the early starts. I'd be tempted to set it at 12, no more than 15 mins early for an EW, and possibly start to shift it out later to 12.30pm.  I would also bring her BT temporarily earlier while she is EWing - to more like 6.30pm for now and then move it back out when WU improves.  Sounds like a bit of an OT loop right now - what do you think?

Also just wanted to say - annoying though it is, one WU a night isn't actually bad. It's pretty common for my 3yo to wake at night. Sometimes for the toilet, sometimes a bad dream, sometimes lost her lovey. In a way if its a quick walk in, tuck in and walk out again then honestly that's not so awful. If molars are coming too she may just need that extra bit of help x
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 22, 2015, 15:47:27 pm
Thank you again for your help!  The 5:30 wake ups continue and she's falling asleep at the table at lunch at 11  :(  I have been trying to read to her after her lunch to get her to stay up as long as I can.  I can stretch her out until about 11:45.  We've been getting her into bed between 6:30 and 7 and she's falling asleep well and pretty much staying asleep all night.  I'm hoping the early wakings work out soon, but it's 9:45 right now and she's laying on the floor ready to fall asleep lol.  Thanks again for the help!
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 23, 2015, 13:12:45 pm
If she's that tired will she do a quick CN (wake her after 10-15 mins) and then put down for long nap as normal?  Just thinking you may need to break the cycle somewhere.  Or would you be willing to try a very early BT as a one-off?  5.30/6pm??
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: Molliesdaniels on February 23, 2015, 17:04:43 pm
Well, it just so happened that she fell asleep at 9:30 in the car this morning. I let her sleep 25 minutes. I guess we will see how today goes. I will try an even earlier bedtime tonight!  Thank you again
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: jessmum46 on February 24, 2015, 13:06:36 pm
Good luck x
Title: Re: 20 month old suddenly stops being able to self soothe
Post by: weaver on February 24, 2015, 14:28:56 pm
It may be that she needs to catch up on some OT and find a new pattern.  Hope today works out well :)