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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Love, laughter, & PJs on February 13, 2015, 18:08:28 pm
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Ok, starting a new thread since I'm ready to think about nights as well as naps.
C is 15m and honestly sleeps as well as she did at 2 weeks old. She nurses and I work and I really don't expect/need her to completely STTN. I'm ok with nursing once or twice a night. But last night she was up 7 times between 630 and 620. NOT ok. I'm just not sure what to do about it. I am this close to letting her cry, even though of course that is not my style at all and we have never done it. I don't really think I would but i haven't been in this situation with SUCH bad sleep at this age and I don't know what to do.
I'm sure nursing is a prop. But we have tried me sleeping in the basement (I think she can smell me from her room next door!) and DH goes in there with a bottle of cold coconut milk. She usually doesn't drink that much of it but still wakes an hour and a half later. Even if we do this for a week she will continue waking.
EASY right now looks like this most days:
6-630: A
1130: S
1245/1: A (I sometimes nurse her and APOP a few extra minutes if I can) - I have been hoping she will extend this since I think she really needs closer to 2-2.5h but she has not done so
6/630: S
She usually does a 3h stretch or so at the start of the night and then the 90min-2h wakeups begin. Sometimes as short as 45 min. I will usually go in an nurse her the first waking and then DH handles the rest with the bottle. I go back when she wakes at 6. But it's hard because on average 3 days a week I work evenings and get home around 1am and she almost always wakes right after I get home. I don't have time to pump at work much anymore so I'll go and nurse her then.
Help me find the strength to deal with this! I know nursing is the prop but I don't want to push her to wean and i work so I feel like it's a fine line. BUt I can't keep up like this. Thoughts?
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My first thought is to actually get rid of all milk at night, totally. No bottles as alternative, no once or twice a night feeds. She doesn't need it nutritionally and I suspect all you've done by offering the bottle is replace one prop with another. I would talk to her about no milk at night, boobies are sleeping etc (she will understand more than you realise) and then when she wakes just sit with her and tell her it is sleep time. It will probably take hours and lots of crying but at this age no milk and total consistency is probably the way to go. Hugs, I will hold your hand through it if you want to go for it xxx
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No bottles as alternative, no once or twice a night feeds. She doesn't need it nutritionally and I suspect all you've done by offering the bottle is replace one prop with another.
:'(
I know you are probably right. That is SO hard for me. I know I've made this happen. I just want a middle road, yk? I feel bad that I have to work and leave her. I don't want her to wean (although she LOVES nursing so that really is unlikely) and a part of me does love nursing her in the dark and she's my last baby. Ok, there's the truth!! ;) But I can't go on like this. DH and i are exhausted and cranky all the time. It's not fair to anyone.
Sigh. Will talk to DH. Do you think it's better for him to go in there and sit rather than me? He;s not as patient, though.
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Big, big (((hugs))) Kate. I know this day is coming for us too and it is so hard. I do agree with Katherine (and I'm saying it to myself too), but I think all NFs need to go. I kept one EW feed with G until 16mo, but I don't think that's going to work with C and it's really a bummer. It will be an awful few nights, but will be so much better when it's done. And, her nap may improve too if she's getting more consolidated sleep at night. I think it doesn't really matter who sits with her... yes, it might be a tad better if it's DH, but it has to be the one who won't cave and if that's you, then it's still possible.
Holding your hand! :-* :-*
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You know what needs to be done Kate :-* :-*. It won't lead to early weaning either....
My refluxing premature 10 week old wakes less than that ;) (to give you resolve.....).
Lots of hugs xxxx
I always do sleep training here.... DH gets mad in the middle of the night :-\. I'm more patient, and have better intuition/ resolve with the process.
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Sigh. I know you girls are right. DH wants to wait a bit since we have family in town this weekend for the long weekend and then he goes out of town next week. He's probably right. But that will give me time to adjust to the idea.
I will be back when we are ready!! Might need a reminder or two before that as well ;)
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(((Hugs))) Kate
I could write pretty much the exact same post for H too. She sleeps about 3-4 (occasionally 5) hrs at the start of the night, then she's up pretty much every 90-120 mins after that. She comes into our bed too when she wakes so it's less disruptive but I know that's something else I need to stop.
As I say, we're in a v similar boat, so I can't really advise. But I had a few qns/thoughts:
Does C fall asleep independently at BT? If not then you could perhaps start by working on that until you're ready to also tackle NWs. It might make the NWs easier to tackle when you do.
Have you tried pantley's gentle removal plan? You could try that as well in the meantime until you're ready to attack the NFs more decisively. WDYT?
We used to have a bf prop at BT but I got rid of that several months ago using a combination of gentle removal and PUPD. After a couple of weeks of GR I switched to PUPD and I think it worked quicker because I'd spent some time doing GR first.
At the NWs does C feed until she's asleep or just for a bit and then when you put her down again she actually nods off?
Ita with PPs that just going for it is prob overall the quickest way. I just wondered as you're not quite ready yet, whether there might be a few gentle changes you could make that might make it easier to stop the NFs altogether when you are ready.
(H is teething quite badly here ATM so I'm not ready to work on dropping the NFs+co-sleeping just yet, but I'm trying to use GR to hopefully put us in a better position when we do).
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Dropping off some extra hugs and support as you decide the best way forward for you all xxx
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Does C fall asleep independently at BT? I
Yes totally independent for naps and BT. Sometimes whines and fusses and I need to talk to her through the door but she goes into the bed awake.
Have you tried pantley's gentle removal plan? You could try that as well in the meantime until you're ready to attack the NFs more decisively. WDYT?
At the NWs does C feed until she's asleep or just for a bit and then when you put her down again she actually nods off?
I haven't mostly because of the second point. She never seems to wake up fully, or goes straight to sleep when she starts nursing. I thought i was going in there too quickly so I try waiting and then she'll scream like crazy. But if I go and nurse her she is asleep in moments. :/ I usually wait for her to pop off but I could try puling her off earlier and see what happens. Thats' a good idea. I haven' read EP's book in ages but I remember the general principles. Might give that a try, at least, while DH is OOT. Good thought. :)
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If she's asleep straight away I'd def try taking her off much sooner. Even if it doesn't help the NWs it will at least get her used to having less milk at night.
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Tried it last night and no big battles. One time she cried for maybe 30 seconds but that was that. She woke up only 4 times total :P That's a pretty good night for us! She napped 2h though and I bet that helped as well. Anyhow, will keep at it tonight and hopefully it will help!
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Hey, that's a start! And yay for the good nap! :)
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Great start, well done :)
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:D
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Aaaand a 65 min nap yesterday and 2 wakings before 9pm. :P The rest of the night followed about as well. One day at a time, huh?
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Argh... hang in there!
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Oh dear :( hope it goes better tonight x
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Yeah not much better at all. I just can't get a good nap out of her so she is SO overtired at night and just wakes up constantly.
Today she was up at 620 and I decided to try a nap at 11. I figured she is waking up by 1245 when I put her down at 1130 maybe she would at least get a half hour more. She woke, mad, at 30 min. :( I patted her back so we'll see what she does from here and if we have to add a second nap today. But I really thought that going to one nap and sticking with it that she would extend but it's not working at all and I know it's part of why the nights are so bad. I know nursing at night is a prop I have to deal with too, but it's not going to get a ton better when our routine sucks. I just don't know what to do. :(
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How did the nap go in the end? Did she sleep much longer?
Does EBT help when she's OT/not napped so much?
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I know nursing at night is a prop I have to deal with too, but it's not going to get a ton better when our routine sucks. I just don't know what to do. :(
Ugh, this is so us. We have a good stretch of one nap days and then he tanks and wakes at 5:30/45 and we have to scratch our way back. ::)
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How did the nap go in the end? Did she sleep much longer?
She actually did! Total of 2h15, which is the longest nap in quite a while. Up maybe 4 or 5 times instead of 8 last night? Still with the early evening NWs, though, whch I always think are OT.
Went for 11am nap again today. Didn't wake at the 30 min mark but woke at 1225. I nursed her for 15 min extra but that was that. I just don't know what to do with her!
Ugh, this is so us. We have a good stretch of one nap days and then he tanks and wakes at 5:30/45 and we have to scratch our way back.
Hugs, Katie. This is so rough! I've dealt with my share of sleep issues through the years but I'm not usually struggling this much at this age, as far as I can recall. It's awful! Two of my closest friends have had babies this week and while part of me looks at them and is a little sad, mostly I'm like I AM NEVER DOING THIS AGAIN AND I AM SO HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!! I would go back for a couple of hours and snuggle my babies as newbies but I can't fathom going through this again. It's been so, so hard. I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, either. Every time I think I do, it gets farther away. :(
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It does sound like the extra NWs are OT related. Tricky then to know how to deal with them when there is OT. Does EBT help?
Still with the early evening NWs, though, whch I always think are OT.
For us early eve NWs are OT (rare as H is LSN) or teething/illness. The rest I think are prop related.
What if you treated the early eve NWs as OT and fed to resettle, then after that any NWs try not feeding?
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It's been so, so hard. I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, either. Every time I think I do, it gets farther away. :(
Oh Kate, lots of (((hugs))). It is so frustrating to still be struggling at this point of the game. Wish I had some magic advice to make it all better. :-*
What if you treated the early eve NWs as OT and fed to resettle, then after that any NWs try not feeding?
Interesting... I have always preferred to resettle the early eve NWs as I'm still awake and have more resolve, and then feed after I've gone to bed. Neither way is right I'm sure, but good to have that perspective (I hadn't thought of it before!). We're currently on a midnight-ish feed and 3-4am feed. ::)
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It does sound like the extra NWs are OT related. Tricky then to know how to deal with them when there is OT. Does EBT help?
With the one nap disasters she is asleep by 615 most nights, sometimes earlier. i can't really see BT much before that since with this she is up 6/615 and I can't handle earlier!
What if you treated the early eve NWs as OT and fed to resettle, then after that any NWs try not feeding?
Hmm definitely worth a shot
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Interesting... I have always preferred to resettle the early eve NWs as I'm still awake and have more resolve, and then feed after I've gone to bed.
TBH this is what I do too. I also find H re-settles more easily early eve. I assume it's because she's more tired but perhaps it's habit. The reason I suggested kind of the opposite is that I just this week was reading a suggestion/plan for stopping night BFs in toddlers where the suggestion was to choose a certain period (e.g. 11pm-6am) where you don't feed. Any other time you can resettle with a feed but that time you don't feed. The idea being that the toddler learns to associate that period with no milk and so doesn't ask for it.
I just wondered if your early eve NWs can be eliminated by the right routine/long enough naps, then you might not need to "teach" your DD to associate that time with no milk. SHe'll perhaps just stop waking then when she's no longer OT. It's the NWs during the rest of the night that it would be more worth focusing on?
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I just this week was reading a suggestion/plan for stopping night BFs in toddlers where the suggestion was to choose a certain period (e.g. 11pm-6am) where you don't feed. Any other time you can resettle with a feed but that time you don't feed. The idea being that the toddler learns to associate that period with no milk and so doesn't ask for it.
I think this is what I was ideally trying to do when I started nursing her at the first waking (Which awhile back was 10pm ish) and then going to sleep in the basement. DH was bringing her cold coconut milk and she didn't seem to like it much at first so we figured she would decide it wasn't worth it and sleep. Instead she decided daddy and the cold bottle wasn't so bad! So I think we need to ditch milk between certain hours for sure. I feel a little bad since I work 2-3 evenings a week so I can't be consistent that she will get milk at the 10pm waking, for instance. But she'll have to get used to that, I guess. It's also hard because when I work an evening shift I often don't have time to pump and I don't stress abotu that anymore. But then I get home at 1 or 2am and feel so full so when she wakes I'm actualyl glad to feed her then. but I can go back to pumping in the car on my way home. I think we just need to block out that time and stick to it. I think 11-6 is a good goal for now. 7 hours of sleep uninterrupted sounds pretty amazing, lol.
I just wondered if your early eve NWs can be eliminated by the right routine/long enough naps, then you might not need to "teach" your DD to associate that time with no milk. SHe'll perhaps just stop waking then when she's no longer OT. It's the NWs during the rest of the night that it would be more worth focusing on?
I agree about the early wakings. I think they are totally routine related and have gotten significantly worse since we've been trying to manage the 2-1. I do think/hope those will get better with time and routine tweaking. Not thsat I know how to tweak! :P
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Well that was a disaster. She napped in the carrier from 1115-12 since we had to be somewhere with the big kids. Tried for another CN in the afternoon but she was having none of it. Asleep at 555 but the night was a DISASTER. Up probably 8 times, for almost an hour at 4. Then for the day at 540. Idon't know how I'm going to make it through. I've already yelled at the bigs before it was even 7. I don't even know when to nap her today. She was up so early that she's going to be exhausted by 11, when I had been napping her, but I feel like earlier and she won't sleep long enough. I just can't get this nap right. :(
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Oh (((hugs))), hon. BTDT with the yelling at the big two... such a rotten feeling! :( Is your DH still gone?
It's too late for this advice now, but could you do a 20min CN around 9/9:30 and then a longer nap about 3hr later? That always worked for my older two... not so much with Charlie.
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Oh (((hugs))), hon. BTDT with the yelling at the big two... such a rotten feeling! Is your DH still gone?
Yeah he's gone until Tues. :(
The day has actually gotten a lot better. C had her best nap in weeks - almost 3h! :D I knew she was exhausted so I put her down at 1050 thinking I would deal with trying 2 naps if she short napped and she slept all the way until 135!! I couldn't believe it! Now I'm not sure if this is indicative or just because she is so tired? Not sure how to read it. I am also not sure about BT. 630? I have no idea what to do since I've had maybe one good nap since we started the 2-1!
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Yeah, I think I would've gone anywhere between 6-6:30 depending on her mood. FX for a much better night for you!
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So she went down nicely right around 640. She was SO hard to read. She was acting silly, kind of punchy, starting at like 545. Running back and forth between me and her sister, flopping and giggling. What the heck?! I wasn't sure how to take that, lol. So I guessed. Hoping it was right!
Now I have to decide about this brunch/art class thing tomorrow. It's from 10-12. Grr. It's only once a month so the bigs are SO excited. They would be so sad to miss it. I feel like I have to do it for them. I'll be sad if we have a decent night tonight and I screw her up again but I guess that's life, huh? :/ Maybe I shouldn't let her carrier nap a whole 45 min? Although she's pretty tough to wake up in there! I could try to wake her after like 20 min. I'd love to CN her before we go but I just don't think she will sleep that early. Every day is a challenge, huh?
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Stop the presses!! She was only up twice last night - 1030 and 515 so she slept over 6 hours in the middle!!!!!! Ah, sleep begets sleep! I am SO excited. Still have residual exhaustion here but I feel so much better. She is in the sweetest mood. :)
She woke at 635. Yesterday it was 5h A time (after a horrid night) that got me the long A time. I'm thinking I'll try to duck out of the class a little early and aim to get her asleep at 12 and skip the CN during the class. Do you think that's too risky? Eeek! Don't know what to do. Either way, even if today is a disaster at least I know good sleep is POSSIBLE!
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Ok, me again lol. Art was cancelled due to weather. So I can do whatever. Still not sure, though! So 5h A time in AM worked yesterday after a bad night, maybe just a bit more? 5h15-30? I'll try to read her but she is stinkin' difficult! ;) Any thoughts if you girls see this this AM?
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IIWM I think I'd go for 5hr15 unless she really doesn't seem tired.
So pleased to hear about your great night :D
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Ok will try. Thanks!
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Ok so it was a moderate success.
635 - A
1145 - S
115 - A
125 - A (after sleepily nursing)
6- S
So we will see about tonight. Maybe I just stick with 5h again? I thought that would be a little short but maybe that's what she needs? I was sad I didn't get tht super long nap out of her again. The tweaking continues!
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Wow, yay for the great nap and night!!! ;D My guess is she crashed for that long nap. I'd keep at an even keel 5hr A for awhile and see what happens. Or, you could try a set time. :-\
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Yeah now I'm not sure what to do. leaning towards a set time. Yesterday was a middle of the road nap again and then we had a long 2h NW from 815-1015. I realized I had some caffeine in the afternoon so maybe that was it? Lots of NWs after that and up for the day at 610. :P So I'm going to do nap on the early side again and hope for a long one to catch her up. Sigh. At least DH is home this afternoon!
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I'm thinking of trying a set nap time too. There seems to be too much guess work in A times at this age, ESP with nights being so variable. At least with a set time they can perhaps start to regulate a bit.
Hope you got a long nap today.
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Well since it was a bad night and she was up early I tried 11. Got 1h15. :P I think I need to stick with something for a while as you guys said. Not sure what, though? 1130? Seems late if the best nap I got happened at 1050.
I'm going to try to catnap her in the carrier this afternoon. We'll see if she does it. I know she's tired and I know it makes her nights better when she's not OT.
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Not sure what, though? 1130? Seems late if the best nap I got happened at 1050.
Yeah, but that was partly because she was just so tired she crashed, don't you think? I think 11:30 is a good starting point.
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Ok well DH got home and had the resolve to say no more milk between 11 and 6. I was waffling SO much so it was good he was totally decided. She woke and nursed at 930 and then it was 1045 so I went to sleep in the basement. DH says she woke about every 45-120 min all night. He went and sat in there for about 5 min and talked to her. Said she never got hysterical, so that's good. It actually sounds like it went better than I expected. I'm hopeful if we do this for a few more night she will decide it's not worth it and sleep. Fingers crossed.
He did say he doesn't think she ever really went back to sleep after she woke at 5. She actually seems pretty chipper this morning, surprisingly. As usual I have no idea when to do nap. :P Seems like 1130 might be awfully late after the wakeful night and early morning? Guess I will just try to watch her. I work this afternoon so she won't get a CN if it's a bad nap. :( I do think that helped us yesterday. Stupid work!
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Gosh that does sound like a really good start. I know she woke lots but the fact she didn't get hysterical is great! And she resettled so quickly each time too.
Maybe try a nap at 11 if she's been up since 5?
Hope you had a good night's sleep too x
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Ladies
I havent read through the whole post, but set naps and weaning saved us!
os is 16 months now its been a month since we stopped BF, im not encouraging stopping it alltogether, but night feeds need to go. I actually weaned because im pregnant and it was unbearably painful to feed him.
It took 2 rough nights and 3 better nights until we were all comfortavle with no milky. We never looked back.
We do set naps now when he is at home and considering that he can go without a nap all day, he has done that twice at the childminders! I find set nap easier to deal with and he settled without me in the room niw very well.
We started off with 5 hours A time each side.
Only ever moving BT by 15 mins if he had a very rubbish nap.
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Gosh that does sound like a really good start. I know she woke lots but the fact she didn't get hysterical is great! And she resettled so quickly each time too.
That's what I'm thinking. It's a good start, hopefully! I still have such guilt about it. Last baby is so hard! I was always good at committing to this sort of thing in the past but this time I'm just a pile of mush. :'(
It took 2 rough nights and 3 better nights until we were all comfortavle with no milky. We never looked back.
I reminded DH this morning that Tracy always said 3 days and things should really start to get better. FX!
We do set naps now when he is at home and considering that he can go without a nap all day, he has done that twice at the childminders! I find set nap easier to deal with and he settled without me in the room niw very well.
Good to know! I think we will have to try this as we are settling in.
I think probably around 11 today is going to be good. I realized I can try to put her in the carrier to extend if it's really a rubbish nap. Not ideal but since DH has them on his own for the afternoon and BT along with dealing with the NWings I feel like I have to maximize her nap.
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Yes, definitely a good start... well done all of you! :) :-* Hope the nap goes well.
Viktoria, thanks for sharing your experience. I agree Kate, I've got the 'poor last baby' syndrome too, and have been making excuses for teething, etc. But, more and more I'm thinking I just need to do it, because I'm starting to think once this last of the first eight teeth is through (the gum is currently bulging), I'm sure the first molars will be right behind. ::) And, a feed isn't helping C to go back to sleep in the morning when he's OT, so there's really not much point anymore (besides us both enjoying the cuddle ;)). Anyway, this thread is not about us, but it's always good to know others have gone through it, so thanks. I did it with G of course, but he's super textbook and easy-going where as C is feisty, a mixed bag of temperaments, and such a screamer!! :P :-\
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Babies and sleep will never be perfect, i have made excuses for a while, oh he is teething, under the weather, but he just need some comfort. If im honest, i loved breastfeeding, closeness witj tje baby, everything that comes with it. What i have found is that actually Os is much more cuddly now! He will just come up and cuddle, ask to sit next to me on the sofa and will put his head on my growing tummy and stroke me. Its a different type of closeness, but you know what its even better, he is doing it conciously not just because he is in a habit of sucking on my boobie.
Btw when weaning all feeds, i have put plasters on my breasts and during the day showed him that no more milky there and mummys boobies are sore. Day times were no problem at all, he found the whole thing amusing.
Btw he sttn first time in his life last nightx
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I'm losing track of the days (and nights) here, esp with the time difference :P
Have you had a second night? How did it go?
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I'm losing track of the days (and nights) here, esp with the time difference
That always happens to me around here!
So last night was the second night. I was at work until 1am. He said she was unsettled a bit at BT (we have just run out of frozen breast milk) so when she woke at 1140 he gave her some coconut milk. He went in one other time at 3am for just a couple of min and didn't have to pick her up or anything. Which all sounds good. I slept in the basement.
Trouble is, he's not 100% sure she didn't wake any other times. :'( I just hope she's not crying and he doesn't wake up. i'n not sure how to handle that. I really don't want her to CIO but I know sometimes he's hard to wake. He thinks if she was really crying for more than a min or two that he would wake up. The monitor is on full volume near his head.
Nap today I went for 1050 (can't remmeber if I wrote about nap yesterday but I did 1050 and she slept over 2.5 hours!) and it was only 1h20. Clearly too early if her night isn't bad. So hard to get it just right! I put her in the carrier for another 40 min at least.
We shall see how tonight goes! Overall I think we are headed in the right direction, anyhow
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That's great :). If she really needed you I'm sure she would have kept crying until someone came.
I'd set nap at no earlier than 11.30am - set times are the way forward for many LOs by this age rather than thinking A times x
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Sounds like night 2 went really well too! Hope it's continued :)
I'm sure your DH would wake if she were crying really loudly for more than a few secs. Now she's sleeping better though, would you consider not sleeping in the basement if it helps put your mind at ease?
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Phew. So I spent a couple of nights on the couch performing the role of human baby monitor. He was definitely not waking every time she woke. :( I went up there a million times to tell him she was crying and he was dead asleep. Sigh. She did a 2h NW for a few nights in a row.
Last night she only woke twice. We decided to put the futon mattress in her room and I would sleep in the bedroom and DH in her room. But when she woke at 3 I went and fed her. Whoops. I was half asleep and didn't realize what I was doing! So tonight we will go back to no milk between 11 and 6. But at least she did a little better.
I didn't think this would take this long. :(
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How many nights has it been? What does your daytime routine look like?
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Hang in there. I'm sure if you're consistent with not feeding you'll get there. Have you fed before 11 much? Dyt that could be confusing her?
X
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Hugs, you must all be tired and >:( to DH snoozing so soundly - how do men do that?!
I still feel no feeds at all is the least confusing at this age (she doesn't know what time it is - no feeds at night is just more consistent yk?) but you have to do what you think is right. Here to support either way xx
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(((Hugs))), Kate. It's so hard. Is she still getting molars? Is it possible those are playing into some of the longer NW?
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Ugh. So it's been I think 8 nights now?
We have been feeding before 11. Maybe that does need to go. Argh.
Daytime looks like:
550/620 (anywhere between)- A
11/1130- S
1h20 nap, almost always. I try to APOP a bit more when I'm home and usually get maybe another 20 min
6/615- S
Up anywhere from 2-a gazillion times a night.
Last night she slept until 12. DH fed her then (not really sure why, I was at work :/). Then she slept until 330. He went and laid on her floor and she pretty much cried on and off until close to 6 when I went in and fed her and tried to get her back down but no dice. She nearly fell asleep nursing at 1020. :( Just put her down at 11.
I think teething has to have something to do with it at least, although it seems like she is ALWAYS teething. She has one that just broke through the other day and the same one on the other side is bulging like crazy today. He gave meds at bedtime last night but didn't remember to redose.
DH is SO frustrated. He's so sleep deprived and is just SO cranky. I really don't know what to do. Maybe we do need to just drop all feed between 6 and 6. That' going to be so hard for her (and hard on my work days since she doesn't get as much milk in the daytime) but we can't go on like this. He's struggling to be nice to her now. :( It makes me sad. I work today and tomorrow, evening shifts, and then I'm off a couple of days. I think I'll tell him I'll do the NWs for a few nights. I'm hardly sleeping more than he is anyhow. Although he does let me sleep in in the mornings for a while when I need to work since I honestly need at least some sleep to feel safe at work. :/
I just thought she would be getting better by now. It was already bad to begin with and now it's worse with no end in sight. I know we haven't been perfect (like I fed her at 3 the other night in my half asleep state, forgot to give meds last night etc) but still.
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Hugs Kate
I know its hard work and sleep deprivation isnt easy. If im honest i would abandon all night feeds, at this age they dont understand time and as far as she is concerned you are feeding her. Its a bot easier with a smaller child in terms of time, as technically you are just stretching out feeds, but your LO doesnt actually need to eat at night. I think you will make progress if uou dont feed. There is no guarantee that she will be sleeping through the night and u will still het night wakings, but then you can safely say that she isnt waking for food and have a play with a routine. I think with the bad nights you are all tired and its difficult to adjust your daytime routine.
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((Hugs))
i think you should drop all the feeds after you put her down (assuming you BF her at bedtime)? When i was weaning night feeds, I would nurse and then read a book or brush teeth so my kids would not associate it with sleep anymore.
when she cries during the night, how quickly do you run up to settle her? if you aren't feeding her how are you settling her? (sorry if you've already asked this)
in all honestly, i tried all sorts of nice ways to get my kids thru sleeping issues (GW, WI/WO, etc) but being firm, consistent and dropping feeds cold turkey was what worked. my kids are like those books "if you give a mouse a cookie" and then i'm doing all sorts of crazy things to get them to sleep.
another thing - I was able to work on my DD STTN when my DS was OOT - staying with the grandparents. could grandparents watch your other 2 for a few days? it made it so much easier.
(just so you know, i'm having nap/BT issues with my 3 yo now so things aren't perfect over here! things are about to get serious!!!)
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Not much more to add, but just (((hugs))), for you and DH. I get the frustration... I've felt the same with Charlie and after I've finally gotten him to sleep have gone back to bed and cried for forgiveness because I've felt so angry. :'( Sleep deprivation is awful!
I do think cold turkey is likely the way to go, if you're ready for it. Some kids obviously go for keeping one feed and not waking other times, but seeing as you haven't had much progress yet, that may be a reason. I also think it's almost impossible to get rid of all NWs when teeth are erupting. I struggled to do it with G, and he is very easy-going/textbook. Once the teeth were through, it was quite simple (the 2-3 day struggle and done). So, I agree with Viktoria, you may be able to get rid of the feeds, but not all the NWs. I've been up with C for over an hr the past couple nights and he really tries to settle (goes quiet for long periods of time), but struggles to actually get himself to sleep. Then, a few times he laid down, he started trying to chew my hand, so I know he's having trouble settling because his teeth hurt (he's also quite whiny during the day :P).
That was a ramble, I guess, but just wanting to support you. :-*
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More (((hugs))) from me too. It is sooo exhausting. I agree with all the PPs have said :-*
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Hugs for today and sending lots of strength vibes ~~~~~~~ to get through this x
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If im honest i would abandon all night feeds, at this age they dont understand time and as far as she is concerned you are feeding her. Its a bot easier with a smaller child in terms of time, as technically you are just stretching out feeds, but your LO doesnt actually need to eat at night. I think you will make progress if uou dont feed.
I think you are probably right. DH is really struggling with the idea of her not eating at all all night. He thinks she needs some calories. Funny since he is the one sleeping on her floor, you'd think he'd be all over it! But he's a softie at heart and doesn't want her to be hungry. I do think she would be hungry for a couple of nights but I would hope she would shift those calories to the daytime.
When i was weaning night feeds, I would nurse and then read a book or brush teeth so my kids would not associate it with sleep anymore.
That's a good idea
when she cries during the night, how quickly do you run up to settle her? if you aren't feeding her how are you settling her? (sorry if you've already asked this)
Well we had tried waiting but she just escalates. The last couple of nights DH is on her floor so not long at all. Since we've stopped the MOTN feeds he has been laying on her floor and talking to her, which usually works ok but she goes back to sleep for only 30 or 45 min before she wakes again, if that.
in all honestly, i tried all sorts of nice ways to get my kids thru sleeping issues (GW, WI/WO, etc) but being firm, consistent and dropping feeds cold turkey was what worked. my kids are like those books "if you give a mouse a cookie" and then i'm doing all sorts of crazy things to get them to sleep.
Haha. That made me laugh, at least! My others didn't do this. DD1 would nicely take one feed at night at this age and DS was sleeping through the night. C is just holding on!
I was able to work on my DD STTN when my DS was OOT - staying with the grandparents. could grandparents watch your other 2 for a few days? it made it so much easier.
I wish but no one lives close by. I've honestly thought about hiring a sitter to come over for the nighttime for a few days! But I can't imagine who nor how much it would cost. :P
I get the frustration... I've felt the same with Charlie and after I've finally gotten him to sleep have gone back to bed and cried for forgiveness because I've felt so angry. Sleep deprivation is awful!
It really is. We just aren't close to our best selves when this is all going on. :(
I also think it's almost impossible to get rid of all NWs when teeth are erupting. I struggled to do it with G, and he is very easy-going/textbook. Once the teeth were through, it was quite simple (the 2-3 day struggle and done).
I do think you're right. The teeth cause so much trouble! C is just an epically slow teether so it's so hard to know when that is the main issue. Although we did have a new one erupt the other day and I think the one on the other side is right behind. Last night we remembered to redose meds at midnight and she did seem to be less unsettled (nice double negative! lol). I hate medicating her twice every night but it does seem to help some.
Thanks for all the hugs and vibes. I am ready to be through this stage! If I was going to be sad about not having another this is really helping so maybe the universe is setting me up for a reason! :P
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ugh! exhausted for you :(i i don't know how you are managing...sorry i know that is not helpful. when i was having issues with my DS (as a toddler) i was very depressed about it. you can only survive on broken sleep for so long.
have you read the book Pantley's no cry sleep solution or Healthy Sleep Habits Healthy Child (in all your free time?)? i got useful tips out of those books as well as BW.
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you can only survive on broken sleep for so long.
Exactly! :P
have you read the book Pantley's no cry sleep solution or Healthy Sleep Habits Healthy Child (in all your free time?)? i got useful tips out of those books as well as BW.
I did back when A was a baby. I think I read every sleep book out there, lol. I tried it but never could get the "no cry" thing down. I thnk she does have a toddler book. I should look for it.
Last night was better. I did feed at 930 when she woke. But not after that. DH slept on her floor and I herd her at 445, pretty mad, but she went back with just him talking and then slept until 6. He doesn't remember her waking another time, so that's promising. Maybe we are getting somewhere!
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yea that does sound like progress. her sleep habits are not going to change over night.
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Yeah , it does sound like huge improvement compared to where you were coming from xx
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Ok last night she woke at 7, 45 min after going to bed nicely. Not sure what that was about. I went to pat her but she was flopping all over so I just sat by the door and she went back quickly. Weird.
Woke at 930, fed her and right back down.
Woke at 3, DH went and laid on the floor and she went back.
We think she didn't wake again until 625! Neither of us remember another waking and he was in there. :)
Progress!
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Great! Definite progress... well done for sticking with it!! :) :-*
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Well done! Maybe you can take confidence from that to get rid of the 9pm feed too? Xx
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awesome!!!! how are her naps going now?
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Great ;D
I agree with Katherine - I think you could try ditching the 9.30pm feed
Xx
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Maybe you can take confidence from that to get rid of the 9pm feed too? Xx
Eeek! Maybe. ;) Definitely thinking about it, I promise!
how are her naps going now?
Better, overall. Still trying to find the right time. Since last night was better I did 1115 today and she woke at 105! So that was pretty good. I think that's pretty close to the right time, now. She always seems to need to be down a little bit earlier than one would expect for her age. Going to stick with this for a bit with 6pm BT. Well, until time change this weekend anyhow. :P I'm hopeful we might shift to 7-7 but it never seems to work out as planned!
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You can totally do it Kate!! She can settle without a feed, she's proven that :). And she doesn't need it nutritionally, just think how nice it would be to have the option to have the whole night to yourself :D
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Well last night she didn't wake until 5am! 5-6am she was really crabby and I eventually fed her and figured she would go back but no dice. :( But she did take almost a 2.5h nap on her own today! And went down nicely. I'm hoping we are onto something, finally! :D
(Of course since I posted that she will be up a dozen times tonight ;))
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did she go to bed at 6pm?? that's amazing!! sleep begets sleep!
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Woohoo!!! ;D ;D
(Of course since I posted that she will be up a dozen times tonight ;))
FX that's not the case, but just call it regression if so and keep going! So happy for you guys!!
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That's fantastic Kate! ;D
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So we have been up and down.
Yes, Heather, 6pm has been a pretty regular BT for us through all of this. She just can't make it farther than that.
We have had a couple of nights where she goes 9p-5a but it's not consistent. I was out of town for a night. Got home last night at 1am. She woke at 130 and for some reason in my sleep deprived state I thought it was 6 so I nursed her. Whoops. So then when DH went in at 4 when she woke up she was SO mad. I think because I was gone for 36 hours and then she knew I was there and she wasn't getting nursed again. :( So it was pretty bad until 630. Sigh
Two steps forward and one step back, right?
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Oh shoot, I bet that was a bit confusing. But, you know she can do it and you're right, there's often some back and forth.
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Ok so we are ticking along, still haven't dropped the evening feed. :P I know we need to but it's so much work to get her through it and either DH is here alone or we are trying to relax together and it's easier just to feed her. ::) Nights are about the same with a varying number of wakings and DH settling her by being in her room.
The biggest thing right now is that she is waking at 5am and SCREAMING until it's time for me to feed her. So at least an hour. And this isnt, oh I'm awake and I'm babbling and then mad I'm in here on my own, it's zero to sixty screaning the second she stirs. I imagine since she hasn't nursed since 10pm. But it's horrible because then I wait to nurse her (listening to DH try to settle her, which never works at that hour) until at least 6 but by then she won't go back to sleep and the big kids are getting up, etc etc. So DH and I are starting the day (with screaming) at 5. After some tough nights. It's terrible.
EASY is like this:
5: A (screaming)
1130: S
130ish: A (sometimes shorter and APOP to lengthen if I'm here, DH just gets her up if I'm not)
6ish: S
I know she's going down early but she often has 2h of nap at best and it's not like she's waking happy at 5am to make me think she's done sleeping and the EASY is off.
I don't know what to do. Thoughts?
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(((Hugs))), sorry it's still rough. I will be honest though and say I really think you have to tough it out with no feeds at all overnight. She is old enough now that anything but complete consistency is going to get resistance. She doesn't know what time it is so why does screaming now get me a feed, but screaming then doesn't?? Can I also ask what APOP you do to lengthen the nap? Because if that's nursing again I think you are probably continuing to shoot yourself in the foot......my suggestion would be (if you think she is OT) give her a one-off early nap e.g. 11/11.15 or go for usual nap time but in the car/stroller (if she will sleep a longer nap that way) so you have the option to extend but not nurse. Or even throw in a late catnap one day and push BT later. Then no feeds at all overnight. Keep her in her room until a reasonable hour in the morning (so 6am if needs be) then lights on, out of room and hang fire on nursing for a few mins. I just think now there has to be a clean break between nursing and sleep with no exceptions so you can actually see if there are other issues ie routine that need sorting.
I hope that doesn't come across too harshly, it certainly isn't meant that way :-* but if nursing is the 'easiest thing' then it's very likely the issue too xxxx
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(((Hugs))), Kate. As hard as it is, I agree with Katherine.
IIWY, however, I would start with a two nap day (or even a couple), as my guess is that she's OT seeing as she was sleeping more on two naps (even though her night sleep was quite broken). Then, you can get a later BT and hopefully help her catch up a bit, so she might wake later. I don't know, this is what I did with my older two and it worked so well (up until about 18mo for G and almost 2yr for C, as she was an EWer when teething and never slept long naps). It doesn't seem to work quite as well with Charlie though, so it may not be something you want to try or do. It's just my first thought. Ultimately, though, I do think complete consistency and no feeds will be the ticket.
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I hope that doesn't come across too harshly, it certainly isn't meant that way but if nursing is the 'easiest thing' then it's very likely the issue too xxxx
Not harsh at all. Very nicely said, actually. :) And I do know you're right. Not sure why it's so hard this time around. But we did do no feeds at all last night! She woke first at 8, which is early for her, so we just said forget this and DH sat on her floor. She was MAD. Took about 20 min to settled but she did do it. He slept on her floor and I slept in the basement so I wouldn't feed her by mistake again! She woke for a bit at MN and then not until 5. Not sure how llong she was up but she was asleep when I Came upstairs at 6, woke and ate and was up for the day at 615.
I am APOPing the nap with nursing in the carrier. ::) I see your point about that one too.
IIWY, however, I would start with a two nap day (or even a couple), as my guess is that she's OT seeing as she was sleeping more on two naps (even though her night sleep was quite broken). Then, you can get a later BT and hopefully help her catch up a bit, so she might wake later.
This may be the solution to the above problem as well. Maybe I'll give it a try tomorrow. She did 90min on her own today and slept another hour on me. So she didn't wake up until 2pm, which means BT can hopefully be a bit later.
Constant tweaking, eh?
Thanks for all the support, girls. I really appreciate it. Hope I haven't driven anyone too nuts by my inability to listen. :P
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Wow you did great!! :D well done hun, you can totally do this. Here holding your hand all the way xx
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Wow you did great!! :D well done hun, you can totally do this. Here holding your hand all the way xx
Thank you!! Fingers crossed for a good night tonight.
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Hope I haven't driven anyone too nuts by my inability to listen. :P
No way... I've never been as wishy washy with sleep, props, etc as I have been this time around too. I think it's something to do with knowing these LOs are the last babies and it's not easy to let that go. I definitely want to be out of the stage of nursing at night, but there's something kind of final about that too that makes it hard. Plus, life with three is no joke (well, it's not with one or two either, but it's just that much crazier now). DH and I did the same thing in the early evening sooooo often because we just needed a little time together.
Yay for being feed free last night!! FX for tonight too! :-*
As hard as it is, I agree with Katherine.
BTW, I hope this didn't come across wrong... I meant as hard as it is to do, not that it's hard to agree with you, Katherine! :-[ Just wanted to make that clear. :P
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Lol Katie no problem at all!!
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Hey!! Just dropping by for support! My DD slept attached to boob until she was 15 months! I know what you're going through. They are just so cute at this age, it's hard to say no!! Hugs!!! You'll get through and 8 hours of sleep will feel amazing!
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I've never been as wishy washy with sleep, props, etc as I have been this time around too. I think it's something to do with knowing these LOs are the last babies and it's not easy to let that go. I definitely want to be out of the stage of nursing at night, but there's something kind of final about that too that makes it hard. Plus, life with three is no joke (well, it's not with one or two either, but it's just that much crazier now).
It is SO crazy, isn't it?? It really is hard knowing that she is the last. :(
I meant as hard as it is to do, not that it's hard to agree with you, Katherine! Just wanted to make that clear.
Ha! I totally read it how you meant it. ;)
They are just so cute at this age, it's hard to say no!! Hugs!!! You'll get through and 8 hours of sleep will feel amazing!
Thanks! :)
Today was an odd one. She did wake at 5 something but went back, up at 615 for the day again (despite going to bed almost an hour later last night). But before 5 she slept through! So exciting.
Took a 2 min stroller nap during our run (would have slept longer but I noticed and woke her up, poor thing!) so was all crazy for an 1130 nap. Went down with patting at noon. But then she slept until 215 on her own! So exciting, also!I guess I need to move naptime back as her nights get better.
Thing is, it's nearly 8 and she is up there babbling. Just started crying outright so DH went up. I guess she needs more A time if she's doing better at night and taking a decent nap? This is all so weird to me! ;) I hope, I hope she sleeps a little later tomorrow. But then, of course, I have to leave for work at 630 so if she does sleep in for the first time in weeks (months?) I won't get to nurse her. :'( It's always something, huh??
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Ugh, it is always something. I'm not sure what to hope for you, but I'm definitely happy to see the great progress you all have made. Well done!! :D
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Sounds like great progress! :D
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Definitely progress! I never thought we would get there. Last night she slept through until about 445 and DH said she was unsettled after that. I fed her at 615 and then she went back down. I woke her at 740! Crazy!! I really want to get her onto 7-7 and it seems like we are getting there. Yay! Of course we have a pedi appt at 230 today and since she woke up so late, nap will be late. Argh. I'm going to try to move the appt later but not sure they will be able to do it. I'm tempted to cancel it altogether since we are just getting into a good rhythm but DH says there will always be something so we should just deal with it. I do think he has a point.
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Hope it all went well! I think your DH is probably right that there is always something, especially with subsequent children.
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Ended up being able to move the pedi appt to next week. Yay!
Things generally a lot better. Taking decent naps. Sleeping 7-7 or 730. Waking up still a couple of times in the night but settling quickly. DH is still on her floor. I am nursing her around 6 but she is going back down. Slow progress but moving in the right direction. I have been sleeping in the basement so actually getting decent sleep! Whoo hoo!
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:D
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that's great news!!
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I have seriously felt like a new person this week! It's amazing. Last night I didn't get in bed until almost 2 because I was working and then up and down with kids etc in the early morning and up at 830. Felt like I have for the last few years all over again! So incredible what a difference it makes. Early to bed for me tonight!
Not sure at what point DH stops sleeping on her floor. It's so much easier for him since then he doesn't have to get up to settle her, and I don't have to worry he won't hear her. But it could be a prop at this point? Not sure
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Is she still waking often? I guess I'd have him start moving away toward the door until he's out and then see what happens. :-\
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Is she still waking often? I guess I'd have him start moving away toward the door until he's out and then see what happens. :-\
Once or twice a night. Last night not until 5. He's basically laying there and saying a sleepy phrase and she goes back to sleep really quickly.