BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: Hester on February 27, 2015, 21:20:35 pm
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Hi all, it's been a loooooooong time since I've been on here! I am posting a question for my sister, she might peek in as well, but her English in not such that she wants to type up the original post. So here goes;
DS is 10 months old. A happy little BIG boy.
He has never slept well, there are the odd nights and naps that he did well, but not amazing. But hey, he's the third, so you wing it and wait it out. But now he is 10 months and HEAVY and it's getting out of control.
8am he wakes, BF, then a cracker or something like it.
10am nap ~ sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he doesn't. If he does then he complains twice or so and then falls asleep. If not then he screams. My sister takes him out, he falls asleep in her arms -> back in bed. (This doesn't always work)
12pm wake, BF, fruit or something like it
1.30 or 2 pm Sleep, which he usually doesn't do
4pm BF
5.30pm Dinner
6.30/7 pm pj on, sleeping bag on, BF to sleep and put away sleeping.
Right now he just had an ear infection. Before the earinfection I would BF him till tired, read a book, sing a song, put him to bed. Usually he would go to sleep without complaining, but since the ear infection that doesn't work
Lately he wakes at 9pm. I try to nurse him to sleep, but that usually doesn't work. If it doesn't work, my husband will sit with him downstairs in the dark, he will then fall asleep after 2.5 hours or so... (so fun sitting in the dark together, we decided to not let him interfere anymore with our nights, since we didn't have any time together anymore. Not right, but sitting upstairs with him for hours with one of us was ruining our relationship. When he falls asleep, we put him away to bed sleeping.
Then he wakes around 1 or 2am. BF. Sometimes I can put him in bed again, sometimes I can't, he'll scream, my husband sits with him till he sleeps. Usually 30 minutes. He won't sleep in his bed then, we take him downstairs and he sleeps in his pram. (which is like a bed)
Then I BF at 6, back to sleep, usually no problem. Because he's already downstairs in his pram, he will sleep.
It looks like he hates his bed. His pram works most of the time, but he is outgrowing it.
Advise???
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Hi Hester! Lovely to see you!
The first thing I notice is that if he's waking at 8, a nap at 10 seems a bit early, he should be able to go 3-3.5hrs at this point. Same with the afternoon nap, if he's waking at 12, putting him down at 1:30 or 2 will be too soon for him. And so it looks like he has a really long evening so he's probably overtired by bedtime. So first of all I'd push out those A times, Does that make sense?
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It does, and I suggested that, but she said that if they miss his window there is NO way he will go to sleep. She has to watch him like a hawm to make sure she doesn't miss his first tired signs, if she misses it, he'll play happily, but then when it's bedtime won't go. So, I suggested to push it slooooowly, by 10, even 5 minute increments. Any other tips? What would an EASY look like then?
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There are some examples here chronological EASY samples, 10-12 months with differing as times.
Could she keep it very low key when she extends his a time, lots of cuddles, calm stuff. I find it very hard to push a times too especially when they're shwoign tired signs but his A times do seem very low, except for that last one.
Is his bed very different from his pram, is there an obvious reason why he'd prefer it, or the room...?
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I was wondering if he prefers it because it's more cocooned. IYKWIM. What are safe ways to make his crib more closed in?
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Does he have bumpers? I think it's not advised for smaller babies but probably ok now...? We use them...
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They could roll up a sheet and then place it under the cot sheet in a 'U' shape to make like a little nest for him to sleep in. Does he have covers tucked over in the pram? That might help in bed to add to the feeling of security. When they put him in the pram do they rock it or literally just treat it like a bed?
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Does he have any independent sleep skills? That likely plays a big part in sleep at this age.
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Hi!
Thanks so far! I'll try to reply to the questions in English.
Yes, his pram is totally diffrent. It's smaller, actually to small by now but since he's is somewhat and kind of sleeping in the pram, I still shove him in there :)
No bumpers in his crib yet, working on it. Since he is sleeping in his -to small- pram but not in his crib so the bumpers make sense. Also looking for a woolen topcoat, they say this gives a lot of comfort. Like a nest.
We have tried de U shape but he climbs on/over it. AND he can stand up in his bed since yesterday, ugh... not helping!
He does have independent sleeping skills, if I do NOT (I repeat: do NOT :P) mis his window that is...
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Hello! :)
So, if he's been sleeping in his pram for awhile and you nurse him every time he wakes at night and you have to get his window *just right* for him to go to sleep in the crib, my guess is that he needs to re-learn how to get to sleep on his own (especially now that he's pulling up to standing). If you get the things to set up his crib how you want, do you have a chance to work with him on independent sleep? What is his routine looking like now?
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My sister wrote his routine in her first post.
At night I don't have to pay attention to his window, that is just during daytime. By pushing his A time he can be awake for 3 hours now so that is working.
At night I BF him and he drinks himself to sleep again but when I put in down he starts screeming....
So he definetly needs to re-learn how to get to sleep on his own. But how?
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Now he wakes at 5.45am. Yesterday he went to bed at 9am and I had to wake him up at 11.45am to pick up his sister from school... But since he goes to bed at 7-7.30pm and he isn't sleeping the full 12 hours he should be tired, right?
He looks somewhat confused sleep-wise :)
Maybe I should wake him up after lets say... 2 hours? What is 'normal' at 10m nap-wise?
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2 hours would be luxury here :)
If he naps too long that will steal from his night sleep, looks like he sees that 9 am nap as the rest of his night sleep...
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this morning he was awake at 5.45am, put him in bed at 8.30am. Woke him up at 10.30am, put him in bed at 1.45pm and woke him up at 3.45pm. Bedtime tonight is around 7pm-7.30pm. I can't wait to sleep aaaaaaaaaal night! ;)
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Hon, I think Kayra is spot on and that's too much daytime sleep for him and that's why he's waking so early (robbing from his night sleep). 2x2hr naps is more of a routine for a 6/7mo old, not 10mo. Even for a high sleep needs kid, I would think 2x1.5hr nap or more likely 1x1.5 and 1x1hr would be more appropriate.
Have a read through these links and let us know your thoughts...
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
chronological EASY samples, 10-12 months
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So would you wake him after 1.5 hours and then move bedtime earlier to avoid OT? Am I assuming correctly that you feel he is UT right now? UT turning into OT?
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In the first routine, yes I think it was UT leading to missed naps and then OT. Maybe the last couple days were catch up days, but I would say if he continues to wake at 5:40, it's plain UT now. That's still 10hr overnight and 4hr day sleep, so 14hr total. I don't think you could expect any more.
I would start pushing him to 3/3.5hr A consistently and 2x1.5hr naps. If he's still NW/EWing, then he may need one of the naps cut to an hr.
Maybe (eventually) something like this...
WU 6/6:30am
Nap 1 9:30-11am
Nap 2 2:30-4pm
BT 7/7:30pm
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Apparently it's a boy thing? With my two older girls I never had to wake them up, it worked the other way even. More sleep = more and better sleeps.
I'll try to let him have longer A time and shorter naps.
So:
A: 7.00-10.30
S: 10.30-12.00
A: 12.00-15.30
S: 15.30-16.30/17.00
A: 16.30/17.00-19.00/19.30
S: 19.00/19.30-7.00 (non stop please ;) )
Sorry if my posts sound (read) somewhat harsh, that is not my intention but just my lack of typing English and Dutch discourtesy :)
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Your posts are fine and I agree with everything Katie suggested :). I have a boy who loves his naps too, it's horrid to wake him but needs must!
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Today he woke up at 7.30 (thanks to his sister), went to bed at 10.30 and slept for two hours. This afternoon he did not want to sleep. We tried 4 times.
He went to bed at 6.45pm, woke up screeming, I bf him, put him back in bed. For 5 minutes he was a sleep and now (it's 11.19pm) my husband is sitting downstairs because he is trying to screem out his lungs.... :-/
Will this EVER stop? We are sooooooo tired. Not just only tired but also mentally. Just done. Can. Not. Do. This. Anymore.
Now What? Just keep on going?
I'm considering CIO. I hate CIO but for now it looks like the only and last option....
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Many, many (((hugs))). I totally get it. My third has not been easy either and there have been so many days I want to throw in the towel and say forget it, because we're so tired: physically, mentally, and emotionally. It's tough, so tough. :(
But, CIO will not solve anything for you, dear. You have a routine issue. He went to bed OT because he didn't get a second nap and that's why he woke screaming a couple times. Take a few deep breaths and let us help you find a routine that works for him (keeping in mind it still might be messy for a week or two). I'm sure you know that we don't promote CIO in any way on this forum. Here is a recent article that may help you stand firm against it (I don't think you really want to do it, I know you're feeling desperate and at the end of your rope... again, I understand... (((hugs)))): https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201407/parents-misled-cry-it-out-sleep-training-reports
So, he woke at 7:30, napped from 10:30-12:30, and then what... what time did you try for the second nap? What happens when you put him down? Do you have any way of settling him? On a day like today, if you try for a nap a couple times and fail, can you take him out in the pram for at least a CN, so that he doesn't go to bed quite so OT?
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Thanks for the hugs <3
It is really exhausting. I can handle the physical tiredness but the mentally and the emotially tiresness are killing. You're right, I do know that CIO is VERY bad and I really do NOT want to do it. I would'nt even know how. Him screaming for 2 minutes feels like 1 hour... So, never did that. Also don't think it will work except damaging him and of course we don't want that.
Ok, let's fix this! :)
Second nap, first attempt: 3.45pm. We did as always. Sleepingbag on, soft music and put him in bed. (he sleeps on his belly)
He stands up, fall down, plays, plays al little more, stands up again en starts screaming. Me coming in, placing him back on his belly, he screams more. And more, and more etc etc. Untill he is REALLY mad. So we'll take him out en try again after 10-15 minutes. Than the same story again...
He is not responding to settling. Stroking on his back will only make him more mad. Singing, talking, put hand on back does not work. Only picking him up will calm him down. When we do that and wait for him to calm down (what happens pretty fast) we can't put him back in again. As soon as we moving towards his bed he starts screaming again.
What is CN?
Today he woke up at 7am, slept from 10.30am till 11.45am (picking up sister from school so woke him up) and slept from 1.45pm till 2.45pm.
He was tired so I took him upstars at 6.10pm to BF him to sleep. He wwas asleep at 6.40pm.
Now it's 7.55pm and he is still sleeping.
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9.04pm, still asleep :O ;)
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Ugh... woke up at 9.15pm, BF 1 breast, put back in bed, scream, me waiting... scream some more, me waiting some more, scream really loud! Me picking him up again, BF other breast, him sleeping, pull breast out of mouth, walk a second, punt back in bed aaannnddd YES! Sleeps :D
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At least you got a 2nd nap ;) maybe the afternoon nap could be a bit later, when my babies do a nap like that I'd do the 2nd nap closer to 3pm.
All in all it sounds like there's improvement, well done :) I would try to be aiming for 2.5-2.45 total nap time.
Cn is catnap, so a short nap of about 30minutes.
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A later nap was not possible, we had to pick up his sister at 5.15pm. Maybe he could go to bed after we're back at home, around 3.30pm.
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Goodmorning! :)
A lot of drinking last night (0.00, 02.00, 04.00, 06.30) but he went to sleep after every BF.
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Poor you that's a lot of wake ups! I'm guessing he just quickly nursed back to sleep rather than having s proper feed? Does he take a pacifier?
If he woke at 11:45 from a nap I would try a 3:30 nap rather than an earlier one, it just brings you closer to bt so he's not super tired by bedtime.
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Nope, tried the pacifier, he just bites it and gags.
That would be my idea too (about naps yesterday), the babysitter was here and she is still learning ;)
This morning he would not sleep at all. Screams an screams. Picked up sister en was in bed at 12.30pm. He slept for only an hour but it looks like he needs to poop :)
I will try again this afternoon, hoping that he is not OT tonight....
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In bed at 3.30, slept from 3.50-4.30, was in a baaaadd mood and won't sleep now (7.30). OT?
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Yup, OT. BF him, read book, sing song, put in bed aaaaaand scream.
Let him be for a while but he could not calm himself down so I took him out and sat with him in his room (dark) in the rockingchair. He fell asleep so back in bed. To soon apperently because he started screaming again. Husband sat with him till he fell asleep again. He slept for an half hour and screamed for 3 minutes in his sleep (??), he calmed himself down and is sleeping again.
Probably not for long... *sigh*
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BF at 11pm, 2am and 6am, no screaming after. Not bad!
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Does he bf when he goes down for naps too?
Did he poo, it does seem that he was in discomfort if he was screaming like that :(
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No he does not BF before naps. Usually after the nap.
He did poop :)
I don't think he really needs the BF at night, he is 11kg and 86cm so he's certainly not skinny ;)
Still, BF is the only way to get him back to sleep. Without BF he will just keep on screaming...
Today wasn't bad! Woke up at 6, nap at 9 till 10.30, nap at 2 till 3, in bed at 7. He did scream so my husband sat with him. He is still asleep now (almost 10pm)
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Terrible night. Awake at 10.30, Bf, scream, bf, scream, me sitting wit him, put back, scream, husband sitting with de him for 1,5 hours, put him back in bed, sleep, woke up at 2, bf, scream, sit, sleep, woke up at 6, bf, day. Goodmorning...
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Oh dear :( that's disappointing after a good day :( it could be wonder week related but that doesn't make it easier. Does he seem to be in discomfort when he's screaming? Gas? Teeth? Have you tried medicating? Is he upset at all during the day?
Are you able to rock him to sleep or rub his back? Sorry if you've answered these already I can't remember.
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Yeah, it is... :(
Wonder week related? You'll have to explain that one ;)
Yes, he does seem to be in discomfort. Don't think its gas, teeth maybe. Is have tried medacating him with homeopathic paracetamol. At the time it seems to be helping. Tonight i've given him this again. During the day he is fine, just the happy little dude he always is :D
When he wakes up too early my husband goes in first to try and settle him. If that does'nt work me and my boobs come in ;)
Rubbing his back makes him even more mad. He just wants to be picked up, preferably by me (or my milk...)
The biggest problem after these horrible months is that it becomes so hard to not be irritated by him even during the happy days. We are so tired, so exhausted that it's hard to keep up the happy spirit.
We know that he is not doing this on purpose, that he is just as unhappy with this as we are but.... aarrgghhh!
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I completely understand, it's exhausting and it makes you anxious about what the night is going to be like etc, so many hugs.
Wonderweeks are development times in the baby's life. They're roughly a month apart and at this stage last for around a month during which generally one week is extra bad. The difficult time is the time when their brains are getting ready to learn a new skill so they tend to get cranky, clingy and sleep badly. So your ds might be in that time, but he does have prop issues too it seems. If he can settle for naps he needs to be able to do it at night soo so I would say that you somehow need to be super consistent about not offering the breast at night till he gets it. Maybe on the weekend could you dh be the only one to settle him and breastfeeding is just not an option, then you let your dh sleep in the day-assuming it's a rough night? I didn't bf that much so can't give tips on how to do it but I do think that if he's eventually getting the boob he's going to scream until he gets it-unless he never gets it. Does that make sense?
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I totally agree with Kayra, hon. He screams for the boob because he eventually gets it. If you want the nights to get better, you need to stop feeding. You're right in that he doesn't need it at this age, it's become a prop. I also agree with how Kayra has described to get rid of the prop. If you want to do it more gradually, you can extend the first feed out by not feeding before a certain time every night or couple nights (so, if the first night you don't feed him til 11pm, the next night you wouldn't feed til 12am and so on).
I've gotten into the NF prop with both my boys. It's not a fun thing to break, but it does help everyone to finally sleep better. I have a hard time doing it when I know there are teeth breaking through, but otherwise I think the earlier you can do it, the better. (((Hugs)))
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Prop? What is prop?
Yes that does make sense BUT...! Isn't is also CIO when he is screaming (REALLY LOUD!) when dh is sitting with him? Really, ds will. not. stop. He screams, gags, puke eventually. Off course, he will fall asleep in the end but not because he can self settle, it will still be because he is simply to tired to cry more. His troat will be sore. When he did al lot of crying in a night, his voice is hoarsely (is that a word? Google translate... ;) )
So that still does'nt feels OK to do...
The past two nights I've taken him with me in bed, as he is drinking we both fall asleep. This is fine but my body can't really handle the co-sleeping. I get allot of pain after these nights... :(
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(((Hugs))), that's a tough situation. :(
A prop is something a LO relies upon to get back to sleep. In your case, it's the boob at night. It is not however, CIO if you're DH is in the room with him. Yes, he will be upset, likely furious, but CIO is leaving a baby alone to cry. Your DS's cries won't be because he is feeling abandoned or afraid, but more that he is just communicating his frustration for not getting what has always happened for him to get back to sleep in the MOTN.
I guess this is a call you'll have to make. I'm sure it is distressing to see your DS cry like that. Unfortunately, even with the perfect routine, I don't know that you would be able to get him to sleep through the night on his own. By his age and by the sounds of his reaction, he has gotten used to being fed at night and that's not often an easy fix.
If I were you, I'd work on getting a consistent routine going (it may even be appropriate to try to set his naps at certain times so he has a chance to regulate a bit). Then, hopefully the NWs will even out (you won't get the early OT NWs) and you can make a plan to tackle the nursing prop from there. If he starts to wake at a habitual time (or two) to feed, it may be a bit easier to get rid of them by trying a different technique.
What do you think?
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Ok, that's not CIO but is it still ok to ignore his needs? Would'nt it affect his conecction to me? To dh? I am not responding en DH is trying to comfort him but is'nt actually listening to him, also by not responding. Isn't that harmfull?
We are now 1,5 week working on his day routine. 3,5 A time, morning nap max. 2 hours, 3,5 A time, aftenoon nap max 1,5 hours.
Any thoughts on that no-more-bf plan? :)
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Bweeehhhh, bf at 7.15pm, put down sleeping aaaaannnnddd there he was AGAIN at 10.30pm. I'm soooooo DONE with this.
I went to bed early because I'm so tired and my body hurts and the little prince didn't settle for one boob, noooooo he needed two. And now I'm too wired up to sleep. This make me so frustrated, mad and tired.
Bring on THE plan! This has to stop!
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Just popping in to say there is a big difference between ignoring his needs, and ignoring his wants ;). He wants the boob to settle back to sleep overnight but that doesn't mean he needs it. In the same way a toddler might want an ice cream right before dinner but they don't need it - does that make sense? What he wants and needs is comfort and a way to get to sleep - and that doesn't have to be the boob. In fact you will probably give both of you the gift of better sleep if you can reassure him that he can go to sleep another way :).
Also what's your routine looking like right now? 2h and 1.5h is still a lot of daytime sleep for a 10/11 month old and might not be helping the nights x
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Yeah 3.5 hours of day sleep does seem a lot, I would have thought max max 3 but more like 2.5-2.45min.
Might it help to think of him crying in a 'I'm cross, give me what I want' way rather than a 'I'm scared/sad help me' way...?
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Thanks Jessmum, that does make sense.
Tonight bf at 7pm and he was awake again at 9.30 pm.
After bf still not ok, dh is now downstairs with screaming baby. He screams his sisters awake otherwise....
Ok, less sleep in daytime. First nap 1,5h and second nap 1h?
I'lI start tomorrow.
What about the NW? Leave him in bed? Or is on lap also ok?
When leaving in bed; hand on his back? Talk/no talk? Can I do that to? Or is that not smart to do. Don't want to dump this at DH only, he is just as exhausted as I am...
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Nap plan sounds good.
If he's on his tummy, I personally would be fine with a hand on his back (that's what I do if mine are having a hard time settling by themselves, I also rub their back if they're really worked up) I guess you'll need to judge what's best. You could pick up to calm him down but then he might get more upset when put back in bed (b/c he was expecting to be fed) so it might work better for him to stay in bed...?
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Today wasn't bad. He slept longer this morning because I had to take his sister to the lab for blood samples. The neighbours had the babymonitor :)
He slept 2,5h. This afternoon he went to bed and I had plannend to wake him after 30 minutes but he woke up himself.
Tonight bf him to sleep and he is still sleeping (10.03pm). Tomorrow I will change his room a bit so that we can put a extra mattress next to his bed for one of us.
The first two nights my dh will go to him when he wakes up. The third night it will be my turn :)
No bf anymore! (at least no bf during the nights ;) We're keeping up the daytime bf, still loving it <3 )
He does sleep on his tummy so the hand on his back will do.
I think you're right about him getting more mad when we will take him out and put him back so thats not what were gonna do.
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Fingers crossed! Hope you have a good night! :)
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My fingers are glued crossed ;)
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Oh, and by the way; you people are awesome! The Dutch forums give advise like CIO or co-sleeping en bf on his request because they think it's normal to need bf for so long at night. Not really helping...
You are all helping in a good way, giving tips that I really can work with.
So... thanks! :)
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I totally agree with all Kayra and Katherine have advised. :) Sounds like you've got a great plan!! Here to hold your hand the whole way!! :-*
BTW, I am also planning on stopping NFs in the next few days. We've just returned from vacation and it's long past time for us to be done. :-[ Hope we're both STTN soon! ;)
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Good luck both! Katie - point us in the direction of a thread (if you want one) where we can support you too xxx
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Thanks!
Whats you're opinion about the bf to sleep at 7pm? I think we're gonna tackle that one later.... ;)
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We still have a bedtime bottle, I don't think that's a problem at this point.. all the best tonight!
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Ds woke up at 9.45pm and dh is with him. Ds is MAD! He is now (10.25pm) still screaming. Aaahh, this is HARD!!
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Hang in there, hon. Yes, it is hard but will get better (I promise). Wear earplugs or listen to some soothing music. If you cave and feed him, it will only make it that much harder the next time! (((Hugs)))
I think there are differing opinions on falling asleep at the BT feed. It's up to you, really, but it might be easier to get rid of the night time prop if he didn't fall asleep that way. Mine still often falls asleep nursing because he's not a great napper and is so tired by BT. :-\
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Hugs! I hope the rest of the night wasn't too awful.
We have the bedtime bottle but they don't tend to fall asleep at it unless they're extremely exhausted, but I realise that breast and bottle are a bit different. Maybe you could unlatch him when you think he's had enough and is just staying on to fall asleep...? It may not be that easy to differentiate though I expect,..
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Hope you all fared ok! Thinking of you this morning.
Katherine, thanks! I started a thread in TS. :-*
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It took ds 1 hour and 10 minutes to fall asleep again. Then he woke up again screaming after 5 minutes of sleep. He cried for 10 minutes then and fall asleep again. He woke up again at 3am and cried for about 45 minutes. When he woke up again at 6am, I picked him up for bf and we started an early day :)
Good luck to you too Katie!
Today he slept 1,5h and 1h. Nursed him to sleep. I could unlatch him when he is done with the real drinking but so far, this works fine. He does know how to fall asleep by himself at 7pm, he did a few weeks so I think he is going to do that again. Later ;)
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That doesn't sound too bad Marianne, what do you think?
All the best for tonight! And to you katie! Xx
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Well done!! I don't think that sounds bad either, really pretty good for the first night. We were up an hr at 1am and 1.5hr at 5am and I was decently pleased. :P FX for your night tonight. Stay strong!
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Not to bad indeed :D
He just woke up (10pm) and dh is with him, he settle's pretty fast! He learns fast? :)
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That's not to bad either Katie! Let's stay strong together! We can do this!
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WOW! Dh stayed with him for only 20 minutes en ds cried only a few minutes! I'm shocked! :O
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Super!!! ;D Smiling for you over here and hoping to have a similar story in the morning. ;) You guys are doing great... keep at it! :)
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Yay! Well done all of you! :)
Hope things are going well for you katie xxxx
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Look at me! I even had time to make signatures with that sleeping baby! Whoeiii! :D :P
He did wake up again last night but also settle pretty fast!
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And during the day? Fingers crossed for tonight again... Joas = cool!
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Had to work today and this afternoon we weren't home so no nap. This morning he slept 1,5h I think...
On the way back home he slept 20 min. in the car. Woke up at home but was grumpy. Hop, bf and in bed :)
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Cute tickers!! ;D Yay for a great night, FX for another one...
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Thanks! :)
1,5h of screaming (1-2.30) last night....
What to do about waking up? He now wakes up at 5.30am and doesn't settle easy. Bf and early day? Try to change wake up time later?
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Love the bright colours :)
Was that the 3rd day regression maybe? Stay strong!
I'd try not to start th day at 5:30-unless that's ok for your family rhythm. Kind of depends on his bedtime too I guess, So I'd try to aim for an 11-12hr night.
Hope tonight goes well!
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Whoohooo! We spend the day at Hesters yesterday, he didn't sleep that good during the day. BUT! He only woke up at 1am and dh didn't even had the time to place his hand on ds back, he was asleep again. Woke up at 6am.
It looks like its working! :D
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I'm super proud of you. And Joas. Aaaaaaaand DH, since he had a rough rough job! Hang in there though, there might be some bumps in the road still...
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Wonderful!! Totally agree with Hester :)
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I totally agree with Hester too! As usual :P
Don't agree with the bumps though ;)
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Yay, happy to check in and see your good news, Marianne! FWIW, we had a really difficult 3rd night as well... must be the regression. ::) Hope things continue onward and upward for you! :)
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Ds slept all night!!! 7-7!!
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WOOHOO!!! Fantastic!! :D ;D :D
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AND... tonight he fell asleep by himself. He did cry but I had to put him down, his sister is sick and needed me just al little bit more than he did ;)
Fingers crossed for another good night!
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That's amazig Marianne! You must feel like a new person :)
Sorry to hear about your hard night katie, hope tonight's better! Xx
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Not yet ;)
How are you holding up Katie?
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Oh, we're ok... thanks. Rough night last night, but I'm hopeful we'll continue to get better ones. :)
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Marianne,
I'm new here but wanted to say hooray!!! Congrats on the success!!! I know it's a looooong and hard road to drop all those feeds. I've had to do it more than once. I still have one at 2 or 3 that I want to drop soon. And while skimming through the start of your thread, I felt/feel your pain. For other reasons my son is waking and screaming multiple times at night and I haven't had a decent night's sleep in so long. Hope your daughter gets better soon! She and your son are blessed to have you!
Katie,
Hello... do you have a thread somewhere?
My thread's here under help with 11 month old sleep. Figuring out the 2-1 nap transition and OT before dropping the last night feed. Or should I just drop it while everything's a mess?
Best wishes everyone and yay for progress!
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Thanks Ginger! Dd is getting better by the day. Now my other dd is sick, high fever! (almost 40!) :(
Ds is still going strong on the nights! YAY! Now we're trying to fix the evenings, he can't fall asleep by himself. Any tips on that one? :)
Hang in there Katie! Look at us! If we can do this, so can you!
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Thanks, ladies. Our nights are great until about 4:30/5am, then I have a really hard time settling him and if he does go back to sleep it doesn't seem for long. I'm pretty sure he's quite OT by now. :-\ Ginger, welcome! :) I have a thread on the Sleeping for Toddlers board.
Marianne - How did you get him to go to sleep for naps independently? Maybe he's too old for that now? What happens when you try to put him down awake at BT? I guess the options are to do PD and WIWO or stay in the room while he settles and do GW. I'll attach some links...
How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)
Hope your DD gets better quick and nobody else gets it!
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I didn't Katie, he just fell asleep by himself. All I had to do was keep a close eye on his window ;)
Tonight bf and he did'nt fell asleep so I read him a book, sing a song, put him in bed and.... he fell asleep! Huh? I have NO idea how and why but hey, I'm not going to ask ;)
What do you mean; he is too old for that now?
And oh my.. what do you mean with WIWO and GW? BT = bedtime and PD = put down, right?
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Sorry Katie... I don't have any advise for you accept the advise that you have given me ;)
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WIWO is walk in, walk out - a sleep training method for older babies and toddlers who know how to sleep independently but have gone off track for some reason or at a particular time. GW is gradual withdrawal, a different sleep training method where you gradually reduce the amount of help you are giving and slowly make your way out of LOs room over a period of days :)
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Thanks!
Yesterday I just did what dh did the first nights, that worked!
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Agh, sorry for all the acronyms... I thought the links would define them well, but maybe not. :-[ When I said too old for it, I meant the original method you used... if it was something like shh/pat, that likely wouldn't work as well on a 10/11mo old, it needs to be adapted. But, it sounds like he just learned the skill by good timing, which is great. And, it sounds like you've got a good start on BT already. :)
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BT is goning fine, yay!
But now he wakes up at 5.30-6.00am...
What can we do about that? He wakes up at 6, nap at 9-10.30, A 10.30-2pm, nap 2-3, BT at 6.30-7.
How are you doing Katie? Any progress?
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He won't sleep longer than 3? Otherwise I would try nap: 2-3.30 and BT 7/7.30. A nighttime sleep of 11-12 hours is good unfortunately, so 5.30/6 makes sense with that bedtime.
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Yes that wouldn't rally count as short night.. Could you push the morning nap out a bit? Maybe you could push your day out a bit and have a later bedtime and hopefully later start to the day. You are getting 2.5Hr day sleep so that's not bad with an 11hr night..
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I would tend to agree with Kayra, DS is a bit younger than your LO (10.5 months) but with a gentle nudge or two ;) is now handling upwards of 4h first A time. You may not need to go that far but if you could push out to say 3.5h that could help you nudge the day along a bit. That said, your routine is actually fine if you are getting STTN, it's just all too early. In that case you could keep A times the same and just adjust your whole day forwards in steps as you would to adjust for daylight saving x
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Still... it doesn't looks like he is done sleeping. In the 3h A time in the morning, he is really grumpy. I'm glad he can even make it till 3h. If I look at him he could go to bed easy after 2h.
I'll try to stretch the A time.
Today he slept more because he looks OT. This morning he slept 2h, the afternoon 2.15h and I woke him up.
The past week he woke up by himself after 1h, sometimes 1,5h an woke up several times in the night and was grumpy aaaalll day, ugh...
Hopefully he could catch up on some sleep today en he will sleep better tonight. Maybe even till 7.30am ;)
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We can hope!
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How are you doing Katie? Any progress?
Not much... :-\
I agree with the others, regarding your routine. Happy to hear BT is going well! :D
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Aaahh Katie :(
Ds did not wake p last night, yahoo! He did wake up at 5am...
What shall we do when he wakes up? Just start the day? This morning dh did what he usually do, lay beside him. But then he screams till 6/6.30am en then is actually IS daytime :)
Don't I still 'reward' his screaming when bf him at 6.30am?
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Hmm... this morning he slept 1,5h (woke him up), this afternoon 50min.(woke up by himself, screaming...) and now (10pm) he is awake and screaming...
Could it be that he needs more sleep during the day?
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Ok.. I'm a wimp... After almost 45 min. of screaming I bf him. He was SO mad, sounded like OT.
After feed I sat next to him (he was in bed), stroked him and he fell asleep...
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(((Hugs))), it's not easy when they scream. He was maybe a little OT today after the early start, which was probably caused by all the daytime sleep yesterday. I think it's just a matter of finding the sweet spot with his routine right now and then you'll be set. :)
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Sounds easy when you say it like that Katie ;)
this morning woke up at 6.30am. Nap 9.00-9.30, woke up screaming. Nap 1pm-3.30pm. BT 7.30pm. fingers crossed!
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I know... if only, right?!? :P ;)
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No NW, yes EW: 5.20....
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Oh boo... my guess is that 2.5hr nap was a bit long and stole from the night sleep. Does he wake happy at the EW?
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He always wakes up crying. In the morning I give him bf in my bed, when he is done he is grumpy so we bring him downstairs so that he doesn't wake up his sisters.
This is a difficult decicion to make! If I let him sleep less (max. 2,5h in total) during the day, he wakes up in the middle of the night and wakes up at 7-7.30. When I let him sleep as long as he wants during the day, he sleeps better and does not wake up but wakes up between 5-6.
I think I prefer the EW in stead of the NW....
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Interesting... I would prefer the NW! But, that could be because I'm stuck in an EW rut right now. ::)
I do think you can find a balance and get a STTN with no EW, but again it takes some trial and error and again it's not always as easy as it sounds. We're always here to help though, if you'd like to try. :-*
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STTN? :)
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AH! Sleept through the night! GOT IT!
Of course I like to try!
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;D ;D
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BW-sister Hester :P suggested that I'm gonna feed him at 5 when he wakes up, in his room and in the dark. After that put him back in bed and wake him up at 7/7.30. Hopefully he get's it after a while and sleeps till 7/7.30.
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If it works!?! ;) I kept that early morning feed with my DS1 until he switched to one nap around 16mo, and he's never been an EWer! It did take 2-3 days of an hr+ settling in the early morning to get rid of it, but it was worth it for me. I'd do it again with DS2, if it worked. :P
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I'm gonna try!
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Well???????
It's not working is it...
otherwise you'd be singing of joy on here... :P
What did you do Katie to get rid of the EW. Just being with him for an hour+? Like what Marianne did at night? Being with him, but not getting him out/nursing him?
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What did you do Katie to get rid of the EW. Just being with him for an hour+? Like what Marianne did at night? Being with him, but not getting him out/nursing him?
Yes... I sat with him and just talked him through it. I made sure he wasn't teething at the time and it also coincided with the final push to one nap, so that helped as well. He was 16mo... HSN.
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Mwaahhh... it did work a few times but last night I nursed him at 3.30 AND 4.00. On the upside... I did put him back in bed, he did cry a little but fell asleep again till 7.00/7.15.
So... I don't know, did it work or not? :) You tell me! :P
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LOL... I think actually only you can answer that, depending on what you want. It's kind of a slippery slope adding feeds back in when you've worked hard to get rid of them. If just one would do it, it might be worth it, but if you're having to feed multiple times, he might start waking more and more. :-\ I still kinda think it's about finding the right balance in your daytime routine, but ultimately it's a call for you to make. What do you think?
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Aahhh! Now back to zero. He just (00.15) up screeeeaaaaming! Only option was nurse him... oh no! This REALLY s...s! Now what?!
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Oh dear. :( Is he getting teeth at all, could that be why he's waking more? I really wouldn't feed him before 4/5am, if at all, otherwise you could end up right back where you started. :-\ Is his daytime routine generally the same?
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Oh dear indeed :(
I checked his mouth but I don't see anything. He is wearing a amber necklace durig the day. His daytime routine generally the same. He sleeps as long as he needs during the day because that prevents NW. Usually he sleeps around 3-3,5h. That is a lot for a 12mo, I know. But if I wake him up, the NW starts again.
I know I should not feed him but just as I think I am recharged.... within the first screams I'm totally done with it again. So far for the recharge :(
So far so good, he is still sleeping. The bed for me or my dh is ready, just in case...
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Cry at 4am, dh next to ds, cried for 1h, slept till 7.15am. Had to wake him up!
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Not bad!^^^
His daytime routine generally the same. He sleeps as long as he needs during the day because that prevents NW. Usually he sleeps around 3-3,5h. That is a lot for a 12mo, I know. But if I wake him up, the NW starts again.
But, he's NWing still, right?! What does the day generally look like?
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No he is not NWing, except that one terrible night ;)
Routine is now: A:7am, S: 10/10.30am S:2-2,5h A-time for 3h, S for 1h or so. BT at 7pm.
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One step back, two steps forward!
Last night he slept from 6.30pm till 6.20am!! Without NW!
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Great night!! Maybe a catch up though after short nights/EWs....I would say you will need to (slowly) reduce daytime sleep to stop those EWs coming back x
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Working on that today!
This morning he went to bed at 9.45. I'll wake him up at 11.45 to pick up his sister. Then back to bed at 3.30pm (back home from picking up sister again) for 1h nap. Then BT when he is tired (7?)
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Second nap did not happen...
BT at 6.30, he did complain a bit but fell asleep after 15 min. complaining :)
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Yes no way would my DS have gone back down for a nap that soon after a 2h nap. It would have to be 4h or more later here, and even then might be refused....
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Thats kind of the prolem... he sleeps when he wants to, not when I would like him to ;)
Last night NW at 2am, REALLY mad and screaming. Probably because he's OT/not enough sleep during the day...
I did feed him because I know the reason for the NW. Had to wake him up at 7.30.
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He won't sleep when you want him to if he's not tired enough ;). Feel free to post your routine here if you want us to see if we can help x
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I tried to get him in a routine that fits his age but then the NWing starts again... :(
He just needs to sleep as long as he wants during the day, then he sleeps ok during the nights. The ideal routine is
A: 7am
S: 10.30
A: 1pm
S: 4
A: 5
BT: 7
The 'problem' with this is that he has to adjust to the school-time of his sister (pick up/bring back). When he is put to bed too late, he wont sleep. When he is put to bed too early, he wont sleep.
Today he slept once 11.45am-2.45pm and went to bed quite fine. Don't think he will NW tonight.
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Today he slept once 11.45am-2.45pm and went to bed quite fine. Don't think he will NW tonight.
I'd say that's an age-appropriate routine. I think the first one is going to lead to lots of pm nap refusal. :-\
Can you keep track of the daily routine for a week or so (including NWs) and then we can try to fine tune it, so it works for both of you?
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Yes I agree with Katie, the first one is expecting far too much sleep for his age I would say. No way on earth would my DS sleep that much and he is a month younger, yesterday he slept 1h40 in the morning and refused all afternoon. One solid nap or one nap of 1.5-2h plus a very short CN (20-30 mins) would be far more reasonable for a 1yo.
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I'll keep track for a week (Y)
As I said before; I know that he sleeps a lot for his age but when I try to make him sleep less, the nights are a disaster.... :(
Today he only slept 1h so I'm kind of scared for upcoming night, brrrr ;)
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Is one nap a day enough for a 1 year old?
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Is one nap a day enough for a 1 year old?
Yes, if it's long enough. He seems HSN, so I'm guessing if he's only going to do one nap it would need to be about 3hr... there are definitely 1yr olds that do that.
As I said before; I know that he sleeps a lot for his age but when I try to make him sleep less, the nights are a disaster.... :(
It's ok for him to sleep a lot for his age, hon, that's not the issue. I think the problem is you haven't hit the sweet spot so his days kind of seem all over the place in terms of naps. Some days he does two longer ones and sleeps fine at night (probably catching up) and some days he's refusing a nap or having NWs. It's all very normal for the 2-1 transition, just need to find the right balance.
How was the night after the 1x3hr nap the other day?
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HSN? :)
You're right about being all over the place with his naps ;)
The night was ok. Woke up at 4.30 (no NW before that), nursed him and put him back in bed. Had to wake him up at 7.15.
Last night he woke up several time's but he could settle himself. Nurse again at 5, woke him up at 7.30.
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High sleep needs :)
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High sleep needs :)
Ah, thnx! :)
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Sorry! :-[
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Sorry! :-[
Doesn't matter! ;)
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Well... the nights are a little bit better. He always wakes up between 11pm-1am but settles with PUPD, we go in about 4 times.
The EW we can't get under control. He wakes up between 4-6am and oes NOT settle whitout nursing. What should we do?
Also PUPD en stay strong? What if he screams till 7 and I nurse? Don't I 'reward' his 2h of screaming with nursing?
The PUPD in the late evening he accepts pretty good. His head is relaxing on my shoulder.
But with the PUPD in the early morning he stretches, is mad, screams, throws himself backwords. Then what should we do? Hold him firmly? Put back in bed?
Just a little more help needed please :)
Thank you in advance!
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I would probably say do up/pd in the morning too. Could you install some kind of groclock or light (we used Xmas tree lights that we put on a timer, so they'd come on at a certain time), so set the lights at when you're willing to feed and start the day so that he associates the nursing with that rather than a 'reward' do screaming, have you tried offering water, or patting his back or sthg? Maybe pu/pd is too stimulating when his sleep is too light? Hugs!
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The light is a good idea!
Patting or sthg didn't work anymore, maybe we can try again now. Do you think that he is so mad because he is still to tired to be picked up? That does make sense though...
Haven't tried water yet.
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What's the routine like now? PUPD won't work if the routine is off.....
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Routine is off so PUPD should work :P
Because he wakes up at night en early, he is sooo tired during the day. I'm trying to let him stay awake till 11.30-12.00 but usually that doesn't work and he is in bed by 10, sleeps for 2h and hopfully in the afternoon another half hour/1h.
Than he's not OT en at least goed to bed okay :)
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Oh sorry; WON'T work you say? Why?
and what should we do then? :O
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You need to sort the routine out ;) he won't go back to sleep in the morning if he isn't sufficiently tired! For a long am nap 10am is too early I would say, he will wake early because of that relatively early long nap, and possibly also because of too much daytime sleep. You don't say when BT is so I'm not sure how long of a day you are having but I think to get consistent longer nights you need to work towards one nap. So push out the morning nap 15 mins every few days regardless of wake up time and give a catnap if necessary until the nap gets closer to 11.30am. Or let him have the nap at 10 but wake him after a short nap and aim for a longer afternoon one.
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Yes with ds1 I made the mistake of letting hi have his am nap too early and it encouraged the early wake ups since heirs body 'knew' he was going to get a nap soon.
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I get what you're saying Jessmum! Wake him up isn't working though. Mostly he does take one nap, thats why I''m trying to make the nap later but I'll have to push it by a minute at the time almost. If I mis his 'window' he only sleeps for an hour en no more naps for the whole day.
Than he will be OT an won't go to bed whitout screaming. He goes to bed at 6.30/7pm, depends on how the day/naps went.
It's really hard to get him in a routine that works. If he sleeps to short during the day, he is OT and wakes up A LOT at night. If he sleeps to long (what he doesn't seem to do, HSN ;) ) he wake's up to early.
Well... he always wakes up to early actually...
I'm really trying to let him take one nap and try not to put him in bed before 11. Sometimes that kind of works but then he is in bed when I have to pick up his sister from school. Ugh...
When I'm keeping him awake untill his sister is back at school, he will be in bed at 1.30pm and I have to wake him up at 3 to pick up his sister again.
Oh the struggles ;)
Sister has another 4 weeks at school, than vacation! I hope that helps, than we can work on his naps easier.
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What are your pickup/drop off times? You really don't want to be waking him up on one nap....not for some time anyway ;)
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School times are: Monday 8.30-12.00 and 13.15-15.30, Tuesday and Thursday 8.30-12.00 and 13.15-15.15. Wednesday 8.30-12.30 and Friday 8.30-12.00.
No, not really ;) Sometimes we're lucky and the neighbours are at home so that I can bring de babymonitor :)
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Oh wow that is really tough to work round :(. I guess you will have to keep a (short?) morning nap with afternoon nap roughly 1-3pm or as much of that as you can manage until he can make it to 1pm without the morning nap?
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I know!
He can't make it till 1.30pm to stay awake.
Today I've let him sleep from 8.45-9.45 (woke him up) and he is in bed now (1pm). Yesterday this worked quite fine! :)
He slept in the morning 1h and in the afternoon 1,5h. The night wasn't to bad either.
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Ok... the NW are over. He does wake up sometimes, screams a few times and falls asleep by himself. YAY!
But... still EW between 4 and 5.30. PUPD doesn't work. He keeps on screaming for 1,5h easy. Gags etc.
If I nurse him, he will go to sleep after that.
What do you think? Nurse him and hope that he eventually will STTN? Or keep on going with PUPD?
Next week we're going on vacation, in a tent. Other people close by an his sisters in the same tent. We can't let him scream then right?
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I'd do what you need to on holiday, then consider cutting that morning feed when you get back x
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And by cutting the morning feed you mean by using pupd?
We still have a week at home so we can and try to let him drop the morning feed but the pupd doens't really works right now. He keeps in screaming as we put him back in bed untill it's time to get up and start the day.
That's what worries me. He wake's up, we do pupd and so on untill he is screaming for 1,5-2h and still get's his feed after that screaming period.
What's the point..?
AND he is SUPER tired in the morning. He than takes 2 naps during the day for 1,5-2h.
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Well I think we are back to the point he's having too much daytime sleep if that's the case....no way will be sleep more than a 9-10h night at this age with those naps. Can you post the routine? I really think you are going to have to start waking him from one of those naps now.
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Let him take one nap of 2-3h? Is that acceptable?
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Yes one nap of 2-3h would be good, or one nap of 1.5-2h and one shorter nap, usually just a catnap by this age x
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Ok!
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Ugh.. how long do we have to do this routine before the EW stops?
He STTN now but is still waking up at 5.30! Nurse and put him back in bed isn't working, he is just awake. Playing, chatting, blablabla, poking in my eye and so on ;)
During the day in the past week he took usualy two naps. The first nap he sleeps 1h (I would wake him up) an the second 1.15/1.30h max.
Yesterday he did one nap of 3h.
Still to many? Now, because he is awake to early he is SUPER tired in the morning. Sometimes starts his first nap at 8.30...
Help? I really don't know what to do anymore to get him to sleep longer in the morning.
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What time is he going to bed? Tbh it sounds like he's just had enough sleep and is ready to get up so its not exactly an EW just him waking up earlier than you'd like :( my guess is that putting him down for a nap at 8:30 is just going to encourage the early wake up. If at all possible I'd aim for a short nap of about 30min (a cat nap like Katherine said) and then the longer 1.5-2hr nap in the afternoon until you can push him to have just one 2hrish nap in the middle of the day. Can you fit sthg like that round your school runs?
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His BT is between 6.30-7.00, always.
The good part is; it's vacation! No school-times for 6 weeks!
Good idea of trying the catnap in the morning.
I'm gonna work on that!
Thanks again! :)
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With a bed time then 5:30 isn't a super early wake up really if he's getting a good amount of day sleep..
Yay for vacations! Hopefully you can freely work on his day sleep now :)
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It is super early for us! :P
Last night he woke up at 3, we gave him some water and he slept till 6.45!
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Oh I know, that would be early for me too, I'm just saying that when you count the hours that's an 11hr night, it's not like he's going to bed at 9 and waking up at 5:30 ;)
But last night sounds great! what had his day been like?
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Back home from the holiday. Unfortunatly the nights were a complete disaster. We went back home a day early because of his bad sleeping.
Last night he also woke up screaming but now we could go back to pupd whithout having to worry that he is waking up his sisters or anyone else in the tents.
He screamed for 1,5h, with pupd.
Today he went to bed for a nap at 11am, we woke him up at 2pm. I'll let you know how the night went!
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Good luck! Once things have settled a bit post-holiday do feel free to post your routine and we'll see if we can help x
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Thanks Jessmum!
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Not a bad night...
He did woke up, pupd for 1,5h but did'nt scream the whole time. Woke him up at 8.30am. A bit late, I know but everybody was awake late this morning :)
He went to bed at 12.30pm for his nap.
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Looks like we're back on track!
Last night he only gave one 'aahh' at 10.30pm, woke up at 6.15am!
Routine is 1 nap during the day of 2-3h. The better the night, the shorter the nap. We never let him sleep longer than 3h during the day. Today he woke up by himself after 2,5h nap.
We try to let him stay awake untill at least 11am, if possible even later than that.
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Sounds great :D
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I know! :)
Yesterday he woke up after 1,5h nap and the night was a disaster again. Really... as soon as his nap isn't long enough, he is OT and sleeps terrible at night!
Is this going to get any better soon? Or do we always have to plan the day around his routine?
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OK... now he is starting all over again with the NW. He takes one nap during the day for about 2,5-3h. BT at 7.
He starts his nap around 11.30/12.00.
What is this? Aaahh!
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Can you post the full routine with WU and BT and what's happening at NWs? Any teething?
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Bt 7pm
NW isn't always at the same time, always screams.
EW at 5am sometimes nurse and back in bad if pupd doesn't work.
WU 7am/7.30am. Sometimes we wake him up.
Nap at 11am/11.30am for 3h.
He was teething but as far as I can see the teeth is showing so the pain must be less?
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Oh wait.... I see more teeth coming!
Hmmm, that's probably it. I guess we just have to go with he flow now right? Nursing is okay if he wakes up in the middle of the night??
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I wouldn't......but it's up to you. Can be a tricky habit to break x
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He switched to EW. If I nurse he wont go back to bed. Maybe keep the pupd.
The worst part is; we will do pupd untill it's time to wake up, ugh...
Thanks!
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For how long is it okay to give him a chance to self settle? In the middle of the night I think we're picking him up to fast. After how long will it be cio? Or what I actually want to know; how long does he have to cry before his stress level gets to high?
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PUPD may well be rather stimulating at this age, how are you doing it? My inclination would be to interfere as little as possible really. Certainly almost no picking up. I can't give any time guidelines, you need to listen to the cry and decide if it is a fuss, I'm tired, can't sleep annoyed kind of cry (ok to leave) or an 'I need you right now' cry which you should respond to immediately.
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I pick him up and if he isn't to mad he will lay his head on my shoulder. I will stand like that for a few minutes untill he is calm and than put him back in bed.
Lately he is really mad at first, points at the door. I'll wait for him to be done with being mad, next he settle's like above.
Listening to his cry doesn't really help. He mostly screams as loud as he can. A boy thing? He is LOUD! :o
Maybe just a stroke over his head when he is really mad? I've tried to not go to him but he can keep up the cry-quiet-cry-cuiet for a loooonnnng time.
Its a constant battle between giving him a chance to settle/don't go to him and go and let him know he isn't alone. A motherheart kind of thing... ;)
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Last night he woke up at 3. Went a few times, didn't work. Gave him some water and after that he fell asleep again (after 1,5h of pupd/crying) untill 7am :)
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Yay! He STTN! Still EW though....
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Yay :) if you want any help do feel free to post the current routine x
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EW at 5.30, nap for 2-3h at 12.00, BT at 7-7.30. Bf at waking up, after nap and before BT. He falls asleep by himself.
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04.45!! :O
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How are things?
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Still a disaster. He wakes up between 5-5.30 and I have absolutely NO IDEA what to do....
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Given LO is much older now and things have moved on from your original post, do you fancy starting a new one over on sleeping for toddlers? There can be things other than routine that come into play at this age and some new eyes on your situation may help :)
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Done! :)