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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: katie80 on March 26, 2015, 13:54:43 pm
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Up until last night, I have fed C at least once or twice (mostly twice). I've wanted to stop for awhile now, but he got teeth pretty constantly (one after the other) from the beginning of the year til a couple weeks ago (and I'm not good at staying strong if I know he's in discomfort). Last week we were on vacation, so the time has now come to stop. I know he's working on his molars, but I don't see them yet, so I'm going with it and hoping we're through in the next week or so.
We made the it through night one. I was on his floor from 1-2am, quickly at 3am, and then from 5-6:30am. I was about to get him up at 6:30, when I realized he had actually fallen back to sleep! I think that was pretty good for the first night, but it was so hard not to feed at 5am, knowing he'd likely to back down. The only thing that kept me going was that I'd don't want to have to do this again in a few months. I kept that early morning feed with G until he was about 16mo, and while it was nice to not have any EWs, it doesn't always work for C and I think sometimes he wakes more during the night just waiting to get to a feed. :-\
So anyway, would you help me be strong, please? I'm tired today, obviously, but not that much more than normal. :P I know that after a few days though, it won't be quite so easy to stay upbeat.
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I am here for you Katie :). Huge pat on the back for night one, that's amazing!!! Stay strong, holding your hand xx
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Here to support you, Katie!Great start with night 1! :-* :-*
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Here to hold you hand and cheer you on - I remember this point with E and X and it is definitely worth pushing on through.
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A great start - remember there can be a regression at day 3 but be strong!
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Here with another hand!
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Me too. You can do it!
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Thanks, ladies. I really appreciate the encouragement! :-* He's just made it over 1.5hr in his nap, so that helps (I've hit the afternoon wall of tiredness and am eating my fair share of cinnamon popcorn ::)). Keeping my fingers crossed we could be lucky enough not to have a regression. :P :-\
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Just think how great it will be when it's all over :).
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Holding your hand katie! Cinnamon Popcorn sounds yummy and well deserved :)
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Hey, guess what?!? He woke once last night at 4:45 and I was back in bed at 5:06!!! Kind of unbelievable! :o ;D
My BF and I go to the big city near us for a weekend every spring (usually in April or May). This is the only weekend that worked for awhile though, so we were planning on just going for the day on Sat. DH encouraged us to go this afternoon, when he's home from work, so... we're going! I know and have warned DH that tonight may go backwards again (he doesn't do real well on little sleep), but I'm crossing my fingers it will be ok. Wow... freedom!! 8)
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Wow that's fantastic!! :D
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Just seeing this Katie and so pleased it's going so well ;D brilliant! Hope you have a fab weekend to celebrate it too! :D
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So pleased to hear about the goodnight and about you weekend away!!:) :)
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Have a great weekend away! Fingers crossed that C isn't too bad for Daddy...
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Have a fantastic weekend away!
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Hope you had a great time, Katie!Was DH okay?
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Oh, Hon! So sorry to be here so late. Happy for you!!!;)
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Thanks, Marta! :-* And no worries, if I could ever keep up with the BC, you wouldn't have to come find me! :(
So, it was a rough night for DH on Fri, but he made it through and felt it was good for both of them. And it was, now DH knows he can do it and that C will settle for him and C is more used to him doing it so he can help.
The last two nights have been much better, though. I got home at 1am on Sat and did a DF, because I didn't want to pump. C woke again at around 4:30 and I thought, 'oh no,' but he cried out and then settled himself! I've never heard that happen at that hour, so was pleased. Last night, he woke at 4:15 and took awhile to settle... not sure how long, because I fell asleep, but he slept til almost 7, so that was good.
Thanks again for your support and encouragement. Hoping we may get a STTN soon!
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YAY!!! Hope you had a good time away, too!
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Sounds like it went really well!
And this is great:
So, it was a rough night for DH on Fri, but he made it through and felt it was good for both of them. And it was, now DH knows he can do it and that C will settle for him and C is more used to him doing it so he can help.
FXd you get a STTN soon!
Just wondering if you've noticed a change in his daytime appetite now he's not feeding at night?
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Yes, I'm quite proud of DH. Every other time he's tried to do that with the kids, he's ended up bringing them to me (more because he feels helpless rather than giving up). But, this time I wasn't there, and even though it was a bad night it was a success, iyswim.
He does seem more hungry, Cath. Although, I was only really full once, so I don't know how much he was really taking at the end, just likely using it to get back to sleep. :-\
Really bad night again. I was thinking we might be over the hump after DH's bad night on Fri. He was up for awhile between 1 and 3, I'm not even sure for how long because I fell asleep on his floor again. Then, up at 4 something again and was in and out of sleep until 5:30ish when he just got mad... I got him up at 6:15.
Nothing to do but keep going, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed about it. :(
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Aww hugs katie, it's so natural for you to feel disappointed :( but don't give up, I hope dh can take a turn again soon, you guys will get there eventually, look at the good nights and take heart! Xxxx
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Keep going hun :). It's hard when things seem to go backwards (been there.....) but remember there are plenty of reasons for him to wake, it doesn't just have to be feed-related. Stick with the settling and if the NWs persist get a post up on TS to see if we can help you tweak them away xxx
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Hi Hun,
Just wanted to pop on with more support and ((HUGS)) for sure you are doing the right thing, and I know those regressions are really hard to take :( but oh soooo worth it when you wake in the morning and you're like this: :o :o :o "OMG no NW, there must be something wrong aaagh!" Mammy goes running into the nursery and guess what, nothing wrong, just the first STTN!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Hang in there Sweetie!
x.
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Thanks so much, ladies. He was up again from 4:38-5:57 and then slept til 6:30. I was glad he went back to sleep, but it's such a long time to be awake. Hes definitely OT, so that isn't helping, and I can only do bedtime so early on some nights. :-\ Feeling sorry for myself today and in tears because nothing I do seems right with this little guy. :-[ :'(
I'm afraid I've now created a hand prop. When I settle at night, I go in and lay on the floor and rest my hand on the crib mattress through the bars. I've done this for awhile, even when I still had the feeds and resettled early NWs. It also helps to resettle during naps. This week, when he's had the looong NWs, I've also sometimes ended up rubbing his back. Yesterday and today, he wouldn't settle independently for his nap. Yesterday, I figured he was OT (he'd been up on and off since 4:something), and slept 20min in the car around 9:30. He got quite upset when I put him down again around 1, so I ended up staying with him with my hand in the crib. I'm sure he's still OT today (tried for nap at 12pm), and he cried when I left. I did WIWO for 40min and he didn't go down. I could tell he wanted me to put my hand in the crib. :-\ We took a break, so I could feed G lunch and then tried again at 1. It took 40min of WIWO, but he did go down.
So, what do I do now? Remove my hand when I settle at night and only lay on the floor? Can I still resettle naps that way? Should I start a different thread for prop help? Sorry, I'm tired and frustrated. :-[
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Oh Katie I only have a second now but wrapping you up in such big (((hugs))), I will be back to post as soon as I can xxxx
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Oh I'm sorry things are so rough and you're so down Hun, I can only imagine as a parent of 1 how these difficult times affect you with other LO's to care for too.
From the outside looking in (always the better view) I wouldn't focus on your worry about the 'hand prop' because there's only so much you can do right now IMHO. If he is OT in addition to recently dropping the NF he is going to need the comfort right now, and I would also be giving it. Plus it seems as though it is conducive to getting the most sleep out of him right now. I would however maybe try and just place your hand on his back without moving it (even though I remember this is a killer eventually, arm cramp!) rather than rubbing etc, and hopefully that will be enough.
Is it worth shooting for a really early nap, following his first sleepy cue for a couple of days ??? Worst thing that can happen is you have to abandon it and try again later.
Thoughts ???
((HUGS)) Honey.x.
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Hugs katie, I had simillar thing with ds today, he *can* settle himself but sometimes he just wants help and wants me to rub his back, today I fought with him quite a bit to just have my hand and not rub and he just did not like it, in the end I figured him getting to sleep was more important so gave in. I don't know if I did the right thing but with you when you know he's that ot I'd probably just do all I can to help him (apart from nursing which you're trying to stop obviously) with the hope and assumption that when he's in a better place eat-wise he will settle himself.....
Biiiiig hugs! Xxxx
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My experience would say that you should go with what works for the time being, since you can sort out props later when you (and he) are more ready - I had a couple of props going with mine, and when I was in the right place emotionally it was easy to get rid of them. And in the intervening period we both got sleep and were much happier!
Big (((hugs))), and lots of strength vibes to keep going. You are doing great, and it will pay off.
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Thanks so much. I appreciate all your thoughts. As I was doing it, I was wondering what I was doing and why I didn't just plop down and give him my hand. But, at the same time I've done so much PUPD/WIWO with him that I got fearful, as I don't really want to make more work for us in the future. I'm very glad you all didn't say I should start doing WIWO in the MOTN, because I don't think I can handle that. :P I'm happy to give him my hand in the middle of the night (he doesn't really do anything with it, just basically flops down over it and falls asleep). And it really helps that I can often extend naps that way. But, I'd like to keep his IS for going down at naps and sometimes BT (because we've already worked very hard to get that). I guess I'll see how the next few days go. :-\
Oh I'm sorry things are so rough and you're so down Hun, I can only imagine as a parent of 1 how these difficult times affect you with other LO's to care for too.
Yes, that is probably the most difficult part. I don't know how many times Graham has heard, "I'm sorry I can't be with you now, I have to go help Charlie get to sleep." Too many! :(
Vicki - What time do you think I should nap him? I almost put him down for 11-11:30 today, but thought if he only did an hr, we'd have such a long time til BT. :-\ I had to wake him today after an hr to go get Claire from school, but since he went down so late hopefully the shorter afternoon will help.
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Dropping by with more hugs for today Katie :-* :-* you've had great advice already so I don't think I can add anything really. Do you think if you went for an early nap and it was a short one you could possibly AP a quick CN in the car to get you to bedtime?
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^^^ Only if the other two aren't in there, although it's still not a given.
Up again this morning from 4:45-5:45, when I handed him to DH and told him to take him for a drive. ::) It's starting to wear on me... I have a tired headache, which often turns into a migraine. But, Claire has Fri and Mon off of school, so I should be more flexible in naps and bedtime. I'm hoping we just need to break through the OT a bit. :-\
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Ugh that's miserable hun :(
Would it help to post a few days routine here just to see if there's anything leaps out? I know I always find it hard to see clearly when I'm in the middle of things, but if hugs and hand-holding are better for now I'm very happy to do that too xxx
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Sending hugs, that is rough!
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Thank you. I can post some routines, although I can't really remember them and I'm pretty sure the day is just getting too long. I'll start keeping better track today.
Although, I'm not sure what to do with today. He was up at 5:15 today (so, a little improved) after 6:30pm BT last night. I tried to resettle for an hr, but he wouldn't go. Got him up and fed him in my bed... I think we dozed from 6:30-7am. Normally, I would've done a CN in the car around 9:30 and another nap around 12:30/1. Wondering if I should still try that or just go for one at 11/11:30. Any thoughts?
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One at 11:30?
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Do you think if you went for an early nap and it was a short one you could possibly AP a quick CN in the car to get you to bedtime?
Sorry for the late reply Hun. I was thinking this also ^. With a 5.30 WU ( remember it at this age) honestly I just shot for a nap as early as I could, I also would have gone for 9.30 too. Then I used to judge 2nd nap by the result, ie: time and length, obviously. This often worked for DS, but usually in the short term, but sometimes short term is all you can focus on you know.
((HUGS)) Lovely.x.
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Not sure if you would be happy doing this, but x was a fairly consistent early waker and I decided that if it was after 5 then I would bring him into my bed and feed him back to sleep with me until it was an appropriate time to get up. That removed a lot of stress for me, and meant that we started the day at a consistent time (which helped with the routine) and was actually really lovely. When I stopped feeding him we just snuggled with him dozing, then gave him lights on a timer when he was old enough to understand. He still comes up to our room before we get up as he wakes earlier than the girls and it means I get a bit longer to snooze! I have decided that he has until he goes to school before I put my foot down on this, and I have to say that I am dreading that day arriving because it is pretty much my favourite time of the day - I actually really wish that I had done it with the girls!
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Ok, so nap was 11:18-12:30, with a wake and resettle at 11:58. :-\ Guess I'll go for BT at 5:30ish/6? ??? I totally ruined it with that doze, I didn't even realize it was happening... it would have been easier to do the morning CN and an afternoon nap. >:(
Clare - I honestly wouldn't mind that at all. It's basically what we did with G and we've never had EW issues with him. TBH, the last couple days, I've been thinking if I feed him early morning then at least we would have a chance to get out of this hole. But, then I think at some point the feed will stop and what do I do then? I don't know that I can really keep him in my bed, because sometimes DH is up between 5:45-6 and sometimes Claire comes in at 6:30 (although that is a completely acceptable wake-up for me). I'm just not sure it would help him get much more sleep. And, I'm afraid without the feed a cuddle may not get him back to sleep. He is not easily APd... G always just sucked his thumb and went right back, but C doesn't have anything like that really. :-\ I don't know, if I could get it to work, I think I'd be happy to do it... just not sure how.
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X has never been easily APOP'd either (although it has, bizarrely, got easier as he has got older!) and I wasn't sure how it would work when I stopped feeding him but it really wasn't a problem. There was a short time when he wanted to be awake rather than cuddling and we put him in the travel cot and let him play with some toys or watch TV while we dozed, but actually that phase didn't last that long and he was back in our bed happy to cuddle.
I found that (when dh was actually here) him getting up didn't make that much difference to what x did, and I have always got up to have a shower at about 6.40 so it isn't like he ever got a huge amount more sleep, but it was essentially an extra hour (for both of us) which did make a big difference to his day.
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Katie, I'm just wondering if you have tried any 'audio' assistance with him ??? Like white noise or music perhaps ???
It may help him to at least stay in his bed in the morning maybe :-\ Just so he is at least getting into the idea of resting until wake up time.
Other than that maybe a visual relaxer. I got Sam a 'pillow pet dreamlite' which projects stars onto the ceiling and an outline of the chosen animal :) (although he a lot older obviously) but he finds it very relaxing, and when I am lying with him doing songs and it is on, I can see why :).
For some reason I can no longer copy and paste a link to it :(
What is your plan for today if any ???
((HUGS))
x.
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Clare - thanks for that. I will have a think about it and maybe give it a try. These 4:30/5am wakings are just not helping anything. Last night he did 5:45/6pm-5am, and was still tired but there's just no getting him back to sleep after 11hr (or 10 ::)).
Didn't really have a plan for today, except to try to get him a decent nap or two and it went totally wrong. Ended up with a super long day and am expecting a bad night. My tired migraine showed up today too... bugger. I'm tired and frustrated and angry that after almost 14mo, I still seem to suck at getting him the sleep he needs. Just keep telling myself tomorrow is another day! :-\
He's got white noise and a nightlight... I really think it's the OT that's preventing him from going back to sleep in the mornings, although I also noticed his two right molars are pretty swollen and I can see one of the tips on the top one under the gum, so I'm sure that's not helping things.
Thanks for letting me hash this out here, ladies... DH is a super support, but still takes all of this in such stride, where I hang more on the stressed out edge. I just want to be able to be a bit more rested and happy with my big kids too! :-\
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Hi Hun,
Gosh, I definitely wouldn't rule out the impact those molars could be having! What would you advise another BW if they told you they were at play ??? ;) Maybe take some comfort that this may not be all about sleep ::). Good job he's so darn cute isn't it :).
((HUGS)) for today Hun. I am the 'stressed out edge' type too, sucks doesn't it :'(
x.
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I think you advised dream meds for us Katie :). Worth a go? Bs top two molars have now cut the gum and we are getting better mornings for the time being....(never say forever ::) ) we have also pulled BT half an hour earlier (well actually it's half an hour later but we had DST if you see what I mean) and that's probably helped too x
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Glad you are getting better wake-ups, Katherine! :)
I keep telling myself to try dream meds, but haven't yet had the courage to set my alarm to wake up another time in the night. Sun night I didn't fall asleep til 1:30/2am, as G called out every 15/30/45min from 9:30-12:30, when he vomited. Mon night Charlie was pretty unsettled. Tues night G was up with diarrhea at 2, I resettled Charie at 4 and then he was up for good at 5. Ugh, I'm tired and cranky and my kids have watched far too much tv. :(
I need some help going forward. We're still stuck in this OT mess, but I don't know how to get him out. I don't reliably get two naps that can help and his one nap days aren't long enough to make any headway. I'm feeling like we'll be stuck on a 5:30-6 routine forever. :P What is the best way forward?
Here are the last few days...
Mon 4/6
WU 5:52
Nap 11:15-12:25
BT 5:45/6
Tues 4/7
WU 5:30
Nap 11:50-1:35 (in car, I know he woke a couple times and fell back to sleep)
BT 7 (aimed for 6:30, which I'm sure was too late, but I wanted to try and push it a bit ::))
Wed 4/8
WU 5
Nap 1 9:25-9:45 (in car)
Nap 2 2:35-3:05 (tried for 12:45, but didn't settle; tried again at 1:45, and finally ended up holding him and bouncing him to sleep :-\)
BT guess I'll aim for 6
What a mess.... I tried to feed him back to sleep at 5 this morning, but he wouldn't go.
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Oh katie, so many hugs, I wish I had the magic formula to sort Cs sleep!
Monday looks like he had a 12hr day which seems to have worked ok, I guess Tuesday bt was too late like you said which caused an ot ew, do you think the nap that day was too long even tho he woke a few times?
So maybe aim for 12hr days? Could you or dh dream-med when you're going to bed so that you don't have to wake up to do it, I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to do that!
Another thought is after a 2 nap day-tho I guess the sleep in total for today was very low-would be to push out the bt, I guess you could only do that if the 2nd nap wasn't super short though. Sorry not very helpful just trying to think what I'd do if it were me... So many hugs!
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Thanks, Kayra... I appreciate your thoughts!
Monday looks like he had a 12hr day which seems to have worked ok, I guess Tuesday bt was too late like you said which caused an ot ew, do you think the nap that day was too long even tho he woke a few times?
I don't think so... he seems to be perpetually OT at the moment. I'm guessing he still needs at least 1.5hr day sleep, but I've definitely been wrong with him before! :P
So maybe aim for 12hr days?
I think this is probably the answer, but unfortunately it's a little unrealistic when he's consistently waking at 5-5:30. There are a couple days of the week when 6:30 is the earliest I can get him down. :-\
So, Wed night I did give meds at 3:15 (he'd been up since 2:15), but he still woke at 5:20 on Thurs, which makes me think the OT is stronger than the teething pain, but I'm sure one isn't helping the other. I can see one point of both top molars cutting through... it could be a long process. :(
Thursday routine was...
WU 5:20
Nap 11:30-12:50ish (in car, after G's gymnastics)
BT 6:30 (earliest possible on Thurs)
Gave meds at BT and have another set ready. Sigh, this is ugly.
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Dropping back in with more hugs Katie, it's messy over here too, back to 5.30am WU today :(. I'm not sure I have any more pearls of wisdom, things would be going a lot better here if I did ::) I guess you can only offer opportunities for him to sleep, you can't make him. Are you doing a set nap/BT now?
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Is he lsn? Have you tried a consistent week or so on one nap to see if it lengthens? Alternatively, could you AP a nap of about 15 minutes in the morning to get him through to a lunchtime nap and see if he can sleep a bit longer at lunch? Mine had a very short am nap for ages, almost pointless but it made such a big difference.
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Hun, I'm no expert on your DS sleep history, but I do remember that when Sam went through the awful OT EW periods, I would go with a nap in the morning as soon as he looked tired. This used to be the only way to get a decent one, so I would try at the first sign. Of course it doesn't always work, but when it does it can give you that one springboard you need to start to improve things. If you can just get that one super nap then you may be able to get to a decent BT and hopefully shift WU. Don't know if this advise is any good for you situation, but want to add ((HUGS)) and empathy too.
Vicki.x.
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(((Hugs))), Katherine... boo to 5:30! >:(
Are you doing a set nap/BT now?
No, but thinking this is the way I need to go. Our lives cannot revolve around getting him to sleep. I've done that before with Claire, but it's not really possible with #3. What would you set it at... 11:30 and 6:30? Or, 12 and 7? I do really believe in EBTs, but even with OT, I feel like I don't have a lot of hope getting him back to sleep at 5:30am if he went to bed at 6-6:30pm. :-\ Most people I know IRL would laugh at me for putting him to bed at 6pm if he's waking up at 5-5:30 (although I know they're not always right).
Is he lsn? Have you tried a consistent week or so on one nap to see if it lengthens? Alternatively, could you AP a nap of about 15 minutes in the morning to get him through to a lunchtime nap and see if he can sleep a bit longer at lunch?
He is on the lower end of the specturm... TBH, I'm not sure where as he's always had NWs. :-[ I've never consistently held to one nap because of the EWs. I can try the 15min AP (I'd really like that to work!), although it has to be in the car and I don't know for how long G will let me do that.
He woke at 3:45 last night, I gave him meds and he settled within 15-20min, but was still up at 5:20. Tried for a nap at 10 and he's just settling at 10:30. Will let him sleep as long as he can and go from there. My parents are home now after being away for a few weeks, so would happily take the big two so I can try a pm CN if possible today.
Thanks so much for sticking with me, ladies. I'm really grateful for your help and patience with me!! :-*
Posting with you, thanks Vicki! I've kind of tried that today... it's hard to know when to go for it as overall he's just so cranky. He was definitely ready at 10, but took awhile to settle. I don't know if it's because it's early or he's OT or he's just struggling with IS right now. :-\ Crossing my fingers for a good one.
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I don't know if it's because it's early or he's OT or he's just struggling with IS right now.
Sometimes it's all of the above Hun :( Did he have a good length nap? What time did he actually go over?
x.
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Fell asleep at 10:30, slept for 30min and I couldn't resettle. >:( ::) Only tried for 10min, because G came in and told me he was going to poop. :P Not sure what I'll do this afternoon...
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Ugh, 30 mins :( That's so rubbish! it's really difficult to make a good call when they're all over the place isn't it. IIWM I'd probably shoot for as early as 1.30 :/ if possible.
((HUGS))
x.
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Ugh, 30 mins :( That's not great it is, but hopefully it will help his mood until nap 2, it's really difficult to make a good call when they're all over the place isn't it. IIWM I'd probably shoot for as early as 1.30 :/ if possible.
((HUGS))
x.
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Hugs Katie, and thanks for popping over to my thread too :-* we should get these boys together some day!
If you are going to set times I would set bedtime at a time you can realistically do on a regular basis, with the option of 30 mins earlier if possible if things go wrong. So I guess that would be 7pm, with 6.30pm being your set early bedtime? So probably a 12/12.30pm nap. Do you ever get a shot at a later WU every so often in the morning? Just thinking you may need to use a day like that to springboard to the planned set times. Or go with the option of a quick AP nap around 9am, just 15 mins or so and then shoot for the planned time. You'd have to stick like glue for a good week though and really try to avoid those unplanned naps in the car, I know it's hard to do when you have to get out and about with the others but makes the set naps hard to 'set' if you see what I mean.
How was the afternoon?
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Still here to support you Katie.
I have to say aloud what I think... so with 6/6:30 BT, 5:30 WU doesn't seem to be an EWU Honey... 11-11.5h of sleep seems to be fine?
I would just push for a later nap, whatever you do right now. So if you ave 11:30, just push to 12 and push BT to 6:30/7:00. When you will start having a nap at 12, go for 12:30 if WU will still be before your ideal time. And with nap at 12:30, go for BT at 7:00/7:30. WDYT?
Btw we are also in a kind of a mess. I think 2h nap seems to be too much for DS now. And I am still being miserable that's happeneing! I need this ME time:)
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Afternoon was a mess. ::) Tried for nap at 2 and it looked like he was settling on his own (he didn't even cry for me when I left the room, which has happened every nap time for the past week). But, he couldn't get himself to sleep... I started WIWO at 2:20, but abandoned at 2:30 and went to get Claire from school (my mom was here so he could sleep, but I wasn't going to have her do WIWO). Tried again after the school run and he just screamed, so took him in the car and he slept from 3:45-4:15. Totally struggled to fall asleep at BT, so I finally picked him up and nursed him (again) at 8pm. I don't know that I can do two naps anymore. :-\
I have to say aloud what I think... so with 6/6:30 BT, 5:30 WU doesn't seem to be an EWU Honey... 11-11.5h of sleep seems to be fine?
Yes, I agree. That's why I don't want to get stuck there. I'm calling it an EW, although most days it probably isn't (we've just migrated to an earlier day ::)).
Do you ever get a shot at a later WU every so often in the morning?
Not in the last two weeks. :-\ I could try to feed him at a 4/4:30 waking, and see if that helps. Or, feed and then put him in the swing (I've done that before when I've been desperate, although he's much older now).
So, maybe I'll try the 15min morning car nap for the next several days and do a 12/12:30pm main nap? Or, should I just start at 11am and gradually move the nap later every week or so until I get to somewhere decent? I think most of Claire's late afternoon activities are done at the end of April/beginning of May, so that should help with EBT a bit.
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DS is an early bird, and was down on one nap at around C's age. He's lsn too is C, do you think?
We could never react to ews without it causing another one, or a series of them. Keeping nap time the same helped, I think ours was after lunch by this point. It gradually pushed back until he wasn't napping until 2p.m. - even after getting up at 5a.m.
Not saying they are the same, but do you see any similarities between them?
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I did set naps from a very early point with all 3 of mine, and it saved my sanity if nothing else! I fixed the lunchtime nap at 12.30, regardless of wake-up, and it fell into place once we reached one nap with x (the girls were fantastically good at napping from much earlier, so he was a bit of a shock!). We often had very early starts to the day, but I found that knowing when the nap was helped me enormously, and I believe that having it set at 12.30 from so early is why they have all napped easily until 4 (okay, x isn't quite there yet, but he is still napping at the moment and it is only 1 month till his birthday! :P). If I were you, I would focus my efforts on fixing that middle-of-the-day nap and work around it. If you think that a short nap in the morning will be necessary to get him to it from when he wakes up then try that. I also set bedtime at about 6.30, regardless of nap length, so although I had a complete monster on my hands on many many occasions, I knew what I was aiming for and we did get there.
Hang in there - it will fall into place at some point! :-*
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^^^ Yes, I think saving my sanity is where I'm at, Clare, thanks! Sometimes I feel like it's going against everything I 'know' about sleep begets sleep, etc. But, I keep trying to get him more sleep and it's just not working! ::) With the big two, I felt like I had a trick up my sleeve, so when they EW I used it and they were back to a decent wake-up within the next couple days. So, I've been doing the same with C, but he's obviously not falling for it. Old habits die hard, I guess. :-\
Helen - Thanks for sharing your insights. It seems he is LSN and yes, and I can't seem to break the early morning we've gotten into, so there are definite similarities. I guess what scares me off is that he's not the best of nappers either, so holding out for it will likely cause an OT, short nap, but clearly the other option doesn't seem to work either! :P Did your DS nap his regular, long nap even after the early start?
I got him til 7+am today by feeding at 4:20 and then APing the heck out of him til he was asleep. I put him in the swing near 5:30? and didn't hear from him til 7. Nap at noon for 1hr+ and settling for bed at 6ish. Probably shooting myself in the foot with that, but he's falling over tired, so I went with it.
That's the thing that will be so hard for me with a set time, as every voice in my head is telling me to get him to bed, and even if he wakes early he will have had more sleep (but I won't be able to resettle him! ::)). Oh well... I also keep telling myself to just accept it. I mean even if he wakes at 5:30, I can get up and do a workout before the others wake. But, then the rest of his day doesn't really line up with theirs, so it ends up getting messy. :-\.
Ok, will stop writing a diary now, just thinking out loud. Sorry to those of you who were just cheering me on to get rid of the NFs... bet you weren't expecting a super lengthy thread! ::) :-* Will give the set times a go, thinking I'll aim for 12 nap and 6:30 BT to start.
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Hugs katie, sounds like a plan! When the twins were going thru 3-2 we were an utter messX2 so i finally went for set naps and although initially it was hard eventually it really sorted them out and later I was able to be more flexible but at least in my head I knew the earliest times they were going down and that really helped. Xxxxxx
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Katie if that helps we are doing set naps for ages. On set naps it's the nap length which changes I guess depending on their tiredness so you also have to accept that sometimes they will do 1:15 and sometimes 1:45 and still will be more tired after 1:45:).
The biggest mistake I make/made is that when F's naps are going haywire I start to panic and mess with set times too quickly which ends up ... badly:). So if you want to try set naps, just remember that it will mean some pushing, having tired child etc until he settles nicely on some routine. And even then there will be some problems with naps here and there.
What I still do when first nap is a crap (shorter than 1h) is doing a quick catnap in a buggy around 4pm. 20min max usually. It helps him to get till normal BT, doesn't mess with nights yet and if first nap was short - F is not refusing it so much (but it is of course APed...).
By the way F is just after the illness and Easter and is napping ... strangely on magic set nap at 12:P. Just to show you how a "good" napper day look like... please have my diary for last 10 days, hahaha :):
Sat - 0:45 + 30min CN
Sun - 0:45 + 20min CN
Mon - 2:00h
Tue - 1:30
Wed 1:15+ 20min CN (fever)
Thu 0:05 in a buggy + 0:30 + 0:30 (fever)
Fri 2:00
Sat 0:50+ 20min CN (and tell me... why on Earth he napped 50min here??? day before with the same A he did 2:00 catch up)
Sun 1:00 and still napping... if longer than 1:15 I will not even offer a catnap and he will refuse for sure
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Yes, DS still took his long nap even with his early starts. In fact looking back I think we should have capped a bit, but we were so exhausted we were often known to nap too!
Our routine at around 18mo was something like this (forgive me for being hazy, but it's been a while):
Awake by six (still is), often earlier.
Nap 2-4pm
Bed at 7.30, asleep for eight-ish
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Gosh, Helen - you did have a nap at 2pm?? Late!!!
When you tried for an earlier nap, what was happening? Was he refusing a nap or rather catnaping?
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Thanks, ladies... I appreciate your replies... and your diary, Marta. It's good for me to remember not every other baby is doing 2hr every day. While I fully accept C will probably never do that, I just long for the consistency. And, I feel like I don't even know how to achieve that because I don't really know what he needs (a 2hr nap and 10-11hr night or a 1.5hr nap and an 11-12hr night... just no clue! :-[). I guess if I just keep offering the nap at noon, hopefully one day it might become clear. :-\
He was up from 4:30-6am this morning, then slept til 7 after a lot of AP and just did 30min nap from 12-12:30. I hate to say this, but he's so cranky, I'm tired of being with him and his whine. :-[ :(
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Hugs katie, I feel the same way when they whine and are cranky and I feel it's 'their' fault for not sleeping! :( is there any chance you can have people round or go out or sthg just to be able to share the burden while you Plod thru trying set nap times?
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Just popping on with some more ((HUGS)) Honey, the whining is hard to take, and it is a very stressful situation, my heart goes out to you :(.
How does he sleep when out and about ??? Do you ever wonder about just trying to have a nice day altogether and waiting to see if and when he falls asleep :-\ That may sound really silly, but it seems like that could be what you need right now. Maybe tuck him up in his pushchair and head for the park, and leave the rest to 'what will be will be.' If I'm honest, the reason I say this is that I did it once with DS, because I felt he was picking up on my stress. That is in NO WAY a criticism, as like I say BTDT, but when we headed out he did one of his best naps over the tricky period. Just a thought :-\.
Hope today is better.x.
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Hi Katie
(((hugs)))
I've been following along but haven't posted recently cos not really had much advice I'm afraid :-\ but I also agree that set naps can work well at this age, esp when all other tinkering isn't really helping anyway! L pretty much had a set nap at 12.30 from when she was on 1 nap until she dropped it. We just capped it more and more as it got too long and adversely affected BT.
With H we haven't quite got to that point yet though as she's still not STTN and, with recent colds etc, some days she's been more tired and has napped early (11/11.30), and then I've apod'd a short CN in the afternoon to get her through til BT. H also has a tendancy to nod off in the car so quite often she has an unplanned am CN (or sometimes it's planned if we're having a day out) and then her main nap is a touch later. However, if we stay in (so she doesn't nod off in the car!) and she's not tired due to illness, then nap is usually at 12.30.
(((hugs))) it can be so tricky. I like the ideas to relieve it a bit and take the "thinking" out of it all so much. I know I'm often guilty of overthinking nap times/lengths.
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Just seen your comment Marta - he just wasn't tired any earlier. He's always been a mile-a-minute boy but also needed long A times. He is literally impossible to wear out!
That's why I go against many here and advise more A time. It's so easy to think OT when actually there may be some UT at play.
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^^ my LSN DDs always did classic OT stuff (EWs, NWs, short naps..) when actually they needed more A time and less day sleep. Took me months to realise this with L though. I kept telling myself she *must* be OT (based on the averages I'd read here)
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^^^ Interesting... maybe I'm still getting it all wrong. Although, I'm pretty sure he's OT atm, as his sleep totals are quite low and he's displaying all the classic signs.
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your thoughts. Today was another rough one... I don't know if it's even worth writing about. :-\ He had a total of 11hr sleep yesterday and is likely on track for more of the same tonight. I've already been in to settle a screaming NW at 9:50 (took me 35min). :( I'm so tired of spending my day and night trying to get him to sleep... it's sucking the life out of us.
Vicki - The only way he reliably sleeps out and about is in the car and we do use that at least once a week. We plan to be out before his nap, drive home and then just leave the car running, parked half way in the garage. Not the greenest of options, but I'm surely not about to try and transfer him, when I know he'll stay asleep in the car. :P
Graham is getting a bit fed up with having to take little drives here and there and tbh, trying a small CN and main nap seems to backfire every time, so I think I'm just going to have to push through. I don't feel like there's anything left to push, though. Does every baby crash at some point and just sleep... I'm afraid he never will? :-\
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Hugs katie, it sounds really tough especiall with G in the picture too :(
If main nao and cn aren't working maybe just regardless of wu time set the nap to 12 or there abouts and stick with tha come what may. At least that way it's only 1 nap you're having to deal with and you're not constantly calculating.
So many hugs!! Xxx
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Hugs lovely. I do think the set nap and abandon the idea of doing two is probably the way forwards now. Like you say if it's not working there really isn't anything to lose, trying to get those CNs is such a pain anyway - and seems silly to put so much effort into such a tiny nap. Sounds like for the whole family it's time for Cs sleep not to be dictating how things run (hope that's not out of order to say that) and for you to claim back some sanity and you time :). I've just made a batch of chocolate brownies - if you were closer I'd bring you some of those too!
Fwiw with the idea of consistency, I had to change my mindset about that with J at that age and accept that consistency would come from knowing when nap and bedtime were, not from knowing how long the nap would be or expecting the same WU time every day. I would have loved the predictable 2h nap every day but it was never going to happen here with nursery in the mix too. Just something to ponder as you move forwards xxxx
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Mmm... brownies sound good! ;D
Fwiw with the idea of consistency, I had to change my mindset about that with J at that age and accept that consistency would come from knowing when nap and bedtime were, not from knowing how long the nap would be or expecting the same WU time every day. I would have loved the predictable 2h nap every day but it was never going to happen here with nursery in the mix too. Just something to ponder as you move forwards xxxx
Yes, that makes perfect sense, thanks.
Sounds like for the whole family it's time for Cs sleep not to be dictating how things run (hope that's not out of order to say that) and for you to claim back some sanity and you time :).
Not out of order at all... I've been thinking the same and wondering how I got to this point, as it's definitely not where I want all of us to be. But, I guess when you lie on the floor for an hr or two every night for a few weeks, you get desperate and try anything to fix it. :-\
I did actually resettle him this morning at 5am and he slept til almost 6 (still less than an 11hr night with the NWs, but a decent-ish WU). He napped 11:30-1, which was the best we've had at home in a couple weeks and did BT at 6:30. He was ready at 6, but I was afraid of another 5:30 start. Think I'll keep the nap at 11:30 for a few days and then go to 12.
Thanks again, everyone. :-* This pic came across my FB today and I burst out laughing... it's me! :P ;)
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Lol!
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lol
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Been there! It's no fun, I do feel for you.
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Up at 4:30, never resettled, ended up hysterical... :'( :'( Now what?!?
Sorry, I keep meaning to leave this thread be, but I'm frustrated and confused.
Yesterday was
WU 5:55
Nap 11:30-1
BT 6:30
He can't have been UT, right?!
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No I'd guess OT :( I would do a catnap around 9/9.30 to get him to that 11.30 nap xx. Hugs lovely, up at 5.30 here today xx
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Thanks, I think OT too... makes me question the set BT. :-\ Ok, will try for a CN. Was going to leave him with my mom for G's gymnastics class, but I'll take him with and pray he drops off in the car.
(((Hugs))) for 5:30... anything before 6 is just no fun. Still got those brownies?! :P
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Bucketload headed your way xx
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How are you this morning Katie?
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Ok, thanks. Day went fine yesterday, the two naps actually worked. But, I was on the couch with an upset stomach most of the day and found Charlie sleeping in vomit when he woke at 1am and Graham has just gotten sick again this morning. :'( Blah... and the weather has been so nice here the last two days! :(
So, I ended up nursing C in the middle of the night and then again at 5am and he slept til 7. Will just watch him today and probably aim to nap him around 12/12:30. He seems fine this morning and asked for breakfast as normal. :-\
Hope your WU was better today! :-*
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Ugh sorry for the illness :( better WU for us but sadly both LOs now have a fever and even DD has napped! Good luck for naptime. I'm planning on some wine to go with the brownies once my two are in bed!!
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Man, what is it with all these spring bugs?! ??? Hope J & B feel better quick... I'll join you for the wine and brownies! :-* Acutally, I've got some coffee flavored Haagen Dazs in the freezer I can bring along! :D
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Katie I totally don't know if that helps but we are (so you too) in 9th wonder week. And mind the mood, as always F is more tired. It means that out of a sudden he needs earlier nap, sleeps longer and even sleeps in in the morning. Or does OT wakings from nap even when put down after his usual A time. I am quite sure with F I haven't seen this sleep needs increase when he was younger and wasn't sleeping well.
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Thanks, Marta... interesting.
He keeps doing 10hr nights and there's rarely anything I can do to get him back to sleep. It leaves his sleep total under 12hr in 24. I don't think he's that LSN, but I could be wrong (would be quite a drop from 12mo to now). I'm going to keep a good log for the next week and then will come back here or start a new thread.
I guess I'm having trouble deciding if I should stick to the 6:30pm set BT or bring it earlier. I mean 5/5:30am-6pm has to be better than 4:30am-6:30pm, no?! And then push out the day. Or, is the theory that if I stick well to the set BT, eventually the WU will follow. I'm afraid it won't. :-\
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I would think his bedtime needs to go later, not earlier? In the end an early bed reinforces the early wakes. I know it doesn't solve the ot now, though - can you tackle that with naps and move bt as a result?
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Well, that's part of the problem, I guess... he's never been a great napper. Maybe because I haven't pushed him enough, I don't know, or maybe because he's just not. I also don't now at what point a long nap takes away from the night for him. :-\ Overhthink it, much?! ::) Guess I'll just have to try and see.
My last question is what I should do with him at the EW? I've been doing a mix of trying to settle, feeding, etc. I'm sure I should not try to feed anymore, it just doesn't work (I think my supply plummeted, tbh, and he's not getting much). But, I've been in there lying on the floor listening to him scream for 3 weeks now and it's kind of trying on the nerves. If I get him up, I guess that's just reinforcing the waking, though. Any suggestions?
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I would do whatever it is that works for you at the moment. It might not be the "right" thing to do, but it is more important that you are not stressed out about it than that you are following the rules - there is plenty of time to sort things out later when you are in a better place for it.
When we were at that stage, I had a mattress on x's floor and I would go and sleep on it when he woke early. Sometimes he would come onto the mattress with me, sometimes he would stay in his cot and I would just reassure him that I was there without having to hang my arm into his cot! I had a light on a timer that came on at a time that I was prepared to call the start of the day (6.20, which is what it still is now) so that he learned that when it was dark he had to stay in his room but that when the light came on it was time to get up.
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My last question is what I should do with him at the EW?
I pretty much did it all with EW Hun, and what I did depended on what Sam was doing. If he was upset and screaming I just got him up, because like you, it got too much to lie next to him listening to that, when I knew without a doubt he WAS NOT going to resettle. Of course before this I did the 'right thing' and kept him in his cot until a decent wake up time, then had enough eventually! ::) WRT re-enforcing the EW, of course that is the theory that we hold fast to when we can, but when there are various things in the mix and it is going to 'Hell on a handcart' I agree wholeheartedly that sometimes you just have to take the route of the least stress 'in the moment.'. I completely understand the place you are in, and wholeheartedly empathise. I remember being the worst of 'over thinkers' and I think its wise to factor in our own personalities when deciding what we can and can't do, because those decisions affect the dymanic of the entire family, ourselves the LO who is struggling, partners and other children who of course pick up on our own tensions, and it really can be 'all consuming.' As I mentioned earlier this week, when I suggested having a 'go with the flow' day, I remember just heading out of the house, and deciding "Today, if he sleeps he sleeps, if he doesn't at least we will have had a day out of the house with less stress, and it worked out pretty well on those days when I threw my hands up in the air and left it fate. Of course, I am not saying this is a good long term plan, but something to possibly think on at the moment. I am sure that Sam picked up on my vibes (from the day he was born ::)) and he still does. If I am stressed he is stressed, and I don't even need to vocalise it for him to know.
Also, with regards to APOP, I start out with the minimum and increase it in increments, so I can know I'm never doing more than needed, but enough so he knows I am there for him. I'm not convinced things would be any worse because you got him up at the moment, I suspect when he can sleep on, he will sleep on regardless of what you do. This was the way it was for us in the end anyway, as soon as the 'stage/teething/OT etc etc' righted itself, he did better. I know he is a tricky little customer with sleep, and maybe Sam was less so, but sometimes leaving it to the LO to do what comes naturally can work in the short term :-\.
Lots of ((HUGS)) Hun. I really hope things improve sooner rather than later.x.
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Honey, what you are going to do is your own decision but I guess that's what i would do based on my limited knowledge of Charlie:
- I would push BT as late as you can; I would stick to that BT for at least 2 weeks and I would be very stricked so he got used to it. I would probably go with 8pm or something similar depending what's Claire's BT --> that should give you a reasonable WU even with 10,5-11h night
- I would treat anything what is later than an agreed WU time a NW and would be very stricked how you handle those; stricked means consistent so it can be cosleeping or PUPD or WIWO or reassurance with voice or your hand;
- with 8pm BT I would go for 6:30/7am WU --> he does 11h night right now
- I would wake him at WU time to set the day
- I would wake/do the WU when he is not crying so for him to understand that you will come eventually and he doesn't have to cry for it; you will come as always in the morning
- I would make his cot a pleasant place to play and I would try to establish some play time in his cot during day
- with 7am WU I would go for a nap at 12:30 or 1pm - remember that did his first long nap when you finally pushed him in the morning?; if he does a OT nap, go for a catnap during evening; F is on one nap for months already but with OT first nap which is 40min he would go for a CN and is still OT at BT; I usually APOP a 20min nap around 4/5pm; but with later BT I would go for CN even at 6pm
- I wouldn't try the routine with short nap in the morning at all as I personally believe it's for those kids who nap in a predictable way and like long naps; with a kid who was on the verge of one nap weeks ago it will make second nap almost impossible to get
I hope that my advice is not too forceful. It's just what I would do as a person who always needs a plan:). I probably would go this way with F too and btw I do if he is OT or something goes wrong. I am not flexible with my son at all and I have to admit that I struggle with that but in the end I just think it's the best for him. He is spirited and very routine-followed. I probably made him a bit like that but I also know many friends who have children and a routine! and if the routine goes bonkers time to time, their children are flexibl. When our routine goes bonkers, F is suffering. It's also a kind of acceptance that there are kids who need something very predictable as they are too "smart":))) and will set their own routine in other way.
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Thanks for your thoughts. :)
Marta - I honestly don't know if I have the stamina and energy to do all that. :-\ :-[ But, I will think on it. The problem is, I can't reliably do a second nap in the afternoon/early evening... only on weekends when DH is home or Tuesday afternoons when my mom has the big kids. So, if I need to do two naps, the short morning one is really my only option. I've decided not to really try for that though, unless he's up close to 5am or earlier. I also can't push BT to 8pm, as I need some alone time with Claire. I guess that means I may have to accept the early mornings, and I'm kind of getting to a place of that, but I'm convinced he needs more than the 10-10.5hrs he's getting right now, so eventually it may get better.
Vicki - I'm in agreement with all you said. Trying to keep some stress out of the picutre, as I'm sure it's not helping!
Clare - So, did you have the lights on the timer up at this age already? I'm wondering if that might be worth trying, as although he's nowhere near being able to do it on his own, at least he could start to make the connection. Although I know he's waking and screaming because he's OT, sometimes I wonder if he does keep it up because he knows eventually I pick him up and bring him to my room to feed him. If the lights came on, that might help.
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Katie, all what you do is fine and the best of your family. It's sometimes good to realize some things (like why you cannot do late BT) as getting up early in the morning is hard and knowing that you have to do this BUT thanks to that his BT will be earlier and you have some time only with Claire is reassuring and can give you some strength.
It will get better someday Hon:) you know it! Hugs!
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We did have the lights from about this age as an easy cue, but he didn't understand how they worked until a lot later (probably nearer 2 - which surprised me as e figured it out in 3 days at 18 months! :P). What it did mean was that I could say 'the light isn't on, you need to stay in bed/we need to stay here' and then when the light came on it was morning and we could leave the room - he did need me there, but he could work that out.
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Sounds good, thanks Clare. :)
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Ok, started a new routine thread, as the NFs aren't really part of the issue anymore and didn't want to bore those of you who've had enough! ::) Thanks for all the support!! :-* :-*
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Lots of Love Honey, a summary is always a good idea, help you get your own head straight ::)
x.