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ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: AmieMeslohi on March 30, 2015, 08:52:24 am
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Hello.
I am really struggling with my 6month LG - I have been trying Sssh/Pat for a week in an attempt to get her to nap in the day for longer than 30mins,so far no improvement but I know it's early days and will continue with it. A kind lady mentioned in a response to my plea that her lack of napping May be down to her routine I was wondering if someone in this forum could help me address it.
Amber was EBF up until 5 months and was a very erratic feeder, so we didn't have much of a routine at all. She has now been on formula for over a month and I have been trying to implement a routine but it seems to change daily depending on how she sleeps at night and thus what time she wakes up along with what naps she manages to do. In fact on reflection the only fixed thing is her feeding time and bedtime routine.
Here is what we have been following for the last month;
Feed - 7am 6oz/7oz bottle
Activity
Nap no1 - 1.5hrs from wake up time (usually 20-30mins) Or when she shows tired signs
Feed - 11am 7oz bottle
Activity
Nap no.2 - 2hrs from wake up of last nap (usually 30mins)
Feed - 3pm 7oz bottle
Activity
Nap no.3 - 3.30/4pm (Usually 30mins but if sleeps on me will sleep for 1 hour)
Activity - 4.30/5pm Playtime with daddy
Bath - 5.30pm
Feed and bed - 6pm 8oz bottle
Night feed - Anytime between 10.30pm and 12.30pm (was taking an 8oz bottle but in last week has only been taking 4/5oz)
Will wake approx 4hours after last feed and struggles to settle,due to pure exhaustion I end up bringing her in with me which isn't something I wanted to do and must confuse her.
We have also just started weaning in the last few weeks but so far not very successful - she's not a huge fan of the food! But I have been giving her breakfast approx 8am and lunch approx 12pm.
Any help you guys can provide would be hugely appreciated-I feel like we are in a bit of a vicious cycle now and desperately want to break for both our sakes.
I'm not sure if this makes a difference but she also has a dummy when going to sleep but spits it out once asleep - however at night she will temporarily awaken looking for the dummy and will settle back down once it is put back in.
Thank you x
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Hi there :)
I do think this could well be an issue with routine and so very happy to help you here on EASY. I'm sorry to ask more questions, I hope this extra information will enable us to help a bit more.
30 min naps are often a sign that the LO is overtired (OT) and they wake up suddenly often at this 30 min point. When she does wake after 30 mins what is her mood? Does she wake crying or happy? Do you use shh/pat or anything else to try and get her back to sleep?
After a short nap (anything less than 1 hr 30mins) we would usually recommend trying a shorter A time so the LO doesn't get more and more OT during the day. So for instance after that first short nap, maybe try an A time of one hour to see if you can get the second nap to be any longer.
An average A time for a six month old would be approximately 2-2.5 hours.
What are A times and how do they fit into the EASY plan?
So as you can see that first 1.5 hour A time might be too short. I know that we might think this would lead to an undertired (UT) nap it might be that she has built up OT over time so still naps 30 mins even though she needs a longer A time.
This is what we call a UT/OT loop and I think it might be the case, you have recognised this as you've described a viscous cycle. Counter intuitively then I'm going to suggest that you try for a later first nap and see where that gets you. Would you be able to put her down for her first nap around 9/9.30 assuming a 7am WU? At this age tired signs can become a bit more unreliable, as yawns can be boredom or a need for a change of scene, rather than just tiredness.
There are some other things we can try but I think this might be a good start. Let me know what you think :)
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Hello :)
Everything that you have said makes a lot of sense - very grateful for your input :)
When she wakes after 30mins she always wakes distressed and upset. I always try to get her back to sleep when she wakes,I've been sitting in the nursery while she sleep watching for first signs of waking and use the Sssh/pat to try and get her back to sleep. Sometimes it's successful and she might do another 20mins and other times she's bolt awake and no amount of Sshing is going to get her back to sleep! I have also been using this method for night wakenings.
Yes very happy to try the longer A time in the morning -we will give it a go tomorrow for definite. I will let you know how we get on :)
Do you think that if we manage to sort out her routine and the naps that this in turn could help with the nighttime? She was doing 6-7 hours from bedtime not so long ago so I know she's capable of it!
Thanks again x
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It's great that you've been consistent in using shh/pat, this will make things easier when the routine settles.
It does sound like things should really change when you get the day routine settled, they say that sleep begets sleep, often nights going bad are a sign a routine needs changing, so once things are sorted I would hope that he sleeps through again :)
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Sorry no advice but just stopping by to say that your lg's routine looks v similar to my lg's at the moment, except being ebf on demand the feeding isn't as scheduled as yours. My lg is 5months (actually a few days shy of 5m) and her daytime naps are horrendous - I feel like I spend the whole day trying to get her to sleep :'( Like the advice you received, someone kindly advised me to lengthen my lg's first awake time..It really goes against my instincts because she shows all her tired signs by 1.5 hrs after wake up, but 2 days of 3x20/30 minute naps and I'm willing to try anything! So tomorrow we'll see.
I am also on day 3 of pupd and nights are massively improved (she slept 8 hrs straight last night, my boobs were like rocks when she finally woke for a feed ;D)... but despite being a 'gentler' sleep training method, it has involved more crying than I expected -from both of us - and is really tough. I'm only sticking with it so that the last few days haven't been in vain. So if you can sort your lg's sleep with routine tweak only I'd definitely try.
Good luck and my sympathies - I'm glad I'm not alone.. Please let us know how you get on.
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Hi there "outofherdepth" and welcome to you too :) ((hugs)) to you. PUPD can be tough, that crying is so loud, it helped me to remember that crying is just my baby "talking to me", they have no other means of communication and this stage. As long as you are with them it doesn't damage the bond of trust between mummy and baby. This doesn't make it much easier on you though, so hugs hugs.
Have you had a look at these survival strategies to give you a boost?
PU/PD Survival Strategies ~ How NOT to give up
If you'd like to post your EASY on this board in a separate thread we could take a look for you. :)
Thank you for popping on here too, this forum is staffed by volunteers, people like you who have come here to find help and have found a really supportive place. I too had help when my DD was small and I hung around, getting support from others, giving support back and eventually becoming a mod. This place wouldn't be what it is without people hopping on to support each other - so thanks!
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Hi 'outofherdepth' it's so nice to know I'm not alone in what I'm experiencing and can empathise with you so much, sending virtual hugs of support!
we had another awful night last night 4 wakenings and awake from 3am-5am despite my commitment to change I gave in again and bought her in with me as the Ssssh/Pat wasn't working and my back was killing me from bending over the cot! Woke up this morning feeling overwhelmingly guilty for giving in again :(
However a new day a new start as they say! She is 15mins in to her first nap, after a 2.5hr activity time sat here waiting to pounce with my Sssshing in case she starts to stir!! X
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Thanks so much for this, I will persevere :-) I will see how things go with this tweak and pupd for a few days and if no/little improvement I will definitely post our routine for further advice.
Thanks for the support at a difficult time and sorry for hijacking the thread!
Hahaha just wrote the above then saw your post...I too am 20mins into first nap of the day sitting by the cot expecting the worst in 10m lol. Sorry you had a bad night - don't feel guilty you are just being her mummy and it's natural to want to snatch her up and keep her with you! I know consistency is key to establishing good habits but at least your lo started out in her cot right? I think BW says that doing something 3 days in a row forms the basis of a habit/expectation for baby so one night shouldn't undo things (though what do I know!!).
Our night wasn't of as good as night before, I think due to OT. It is so hard! Good luck for the day :-) LO is stirring *sigh*
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Hugs all round xxx
This isn't easy and I would be the first one to take my DD into bed with me if I'm exhausted. Sometimes you have to do what's best for you all as a family to get through things. One nights won't create a habit, please don't feel guilty :)
Sometimes a bit of APOP is nevesaary to get you through and then you can focus on the next time - it is a new day!! :) good luck ladies xx
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Thank you for your words of support although I have to confess its been more than one night though hence the horrendous guilt :(
So results today,she did a 1hr nap at 9.30am which is a big improvement and she only needed me to Sssh her twice when she stirred. The rest of the day was a mixture of 45mins naps as we were out and about all afternoon.
As she had had a total of 2hrs 40mins napping I moved her bedtime to 6.45pm which went ok still carrying out the Sssh/Pat.
I'm wondering if I should maybe try a dream feed at 11pm and see if that helps her go through?I have just purchased the BW sleep book to read but I'm sure a friend mentioned that the BW suggests a dream feed in one of her EASY's???Or should my next step be to repeat the. 9.30am morning nap to get her used to it and then think about another change once that's settled?
:)
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According to the BW book, shh-pat may be more distracting than soothing for a child by six months. If she seems to respond to it well, then by all means keep using it, but at 6 months just a hand on her back, or sleepy "cue words" or pick up-put down might be more effective.
The book also recommends keeping the dream feed until the child is established on solids. Since she's already starting solids, I don't know whether it would be worth it to try to introduce it, then wean her from it in a month or two, or if you would rather just try to get her to sleep through at this point, especially since she's formula fed. But if she can only make it one 7-8 hour stretch at night, then the dream feed would be better than a feeding in the MOTN.
A further suggestion is that if she gets "stuck" in a cycle of napping about 30 minutes, you could try the "wake to sleep" method, where you go into her room about 5-10 minutes before she would normally wake from the nap, wake her slightly so that she stirs briefly and falls back asleep, then hope that she might fall back into a deep sleep and sleep another 30 minutes.
I found your EASY a bit confusing - if she's going down for a nap at 8:30, and sleeping 30 minutes, then she wakes at 9? So is she having activity time until it's time to eat at 11? And then two hours after her wake time would be 11, when you're starting the next feeding, and so on with the next few cycles. Am I misunderstanding something?
Also, at this point I would try to start weaning her from the pacifier if she's not too resistant, as she probably doesn't need that much sucking anymore and it will only get harder as she gets older. Especially if there's any chance that it's contributing to sleep problems. But that can wait until you have a routine established and things have calmed down otherwise.
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Amie it's spooky how similar our days are! My lo also napped for an hr this morning which is a massive improvement but she still woke up crying and wouldn't resettle and the next nap was a disaster with lots of crying and only 20mins sleeping. BW advises trying to get them back to sleep for 40minutes but I kind of give up after 10-15 as I know from experience she's not going back to sleep!
Due to 2nd and 3rd naps being short I put her to bed at 6.40pm and she settled without crying in about 5 minutes (result) but woke up after half an hour and cried for about 15minutes. She's been asleep since and I too am toying with the idea of a DF at 11ish but I'm worried as I have NEVER purposely woken her in her life..the thought makes my skin hurt!! lol so just don't know ??? I might give it a go..
I'm also wondering whether another reason my lg's naps are so rubbish is because she's sleeping too much at night - is that possible? I counted it up and she's actually getting close to 13 hours on some nights (I didn't realise this - I need to try to sleep in this time!). I can't stand the idea of waking her in the morning, especially since she always seems OT, but what do you reckon? Is it possible to get too much night time sleep? I can't find an answer on the net.
Hope your night goes well and your back isn't too sore. I have a chair by my lo's cot and put my hand through the bars to try to spare my back - it still aches but not as much.
Good luck, I'll let you know if I attempt the DF.
x x
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Ok so well done you for sticking with the 9.30 nap, keep going with that for a couple of days and I think then shift it a little later again. :)
As for those later 45 min naps, those sound like UT naps so you may need to lengthen those later a times a little bit too now. It is also ok to focus on one nap at a time if you find that easier.
We did a DF with DD until she was 8/9 months as she was weaned using BLW so not really on sufficient solids until then. But, we had started it around 2 months. You could give it a try if you like, you'd need to do it for over a week (between 10 and 11pm) to see if it works for you. But be aware, starting a DF later could actually disrupt night sleep more, so be prepared for that.
If it makes you feel better, my DD (3.5 years) was in bed with us last night. This made for a pretty awful sleep for us though as she's so big and wriggly now, sometimes needs must. You are starting to make changes now and work towards IS, but your LO is still small, please don't feel guilty for being there for her. Once you're on a better routine and you are a little better rested you will find it so much easier to work in the sleeping on her own thing.
I do agree with Domestic engineer in the main, the only thing I would say is don't feel you have to wean the dummy now. You do have quite a lot to tackle already. If once the routine is fixed a bit you feel the dummy is causing a problem then we can look at weaning it. But she will just be getting to the age where she can start to replug it herself and you may therefore get less disruption with the dummy. Many LOs do need to suck for a long time (particularly if they are bottle fed as mine was) once the comfort sucking of BF was gone for thwr she really needed that. We kept it to bed time and sleep times and this reduced the difficulty when we got rid of it to the dummy fairy this Christmas :)
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OOHD - would you like to post a separate thread of your EAS for us to have a look at? No pressure if you're happy, but please remember the option is there :)
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I chickened out of the DF lol! She woke at 12.30pm for a feed and went straight back down no problem. She then woke at 3.30am just looking for comfort,after a few Sssh/Pats she went back off (IN HER OWN COT!!!!) till 6.15am I couldn't believe it!!She played on her own blabbering away till my husband got her up at 6.45am.
We are 25mins in to nap as did 2.5hrs from WU - she went down easily so holding my breath for a good nap :)
Domestic Engineer thank you for your advice also - yes looking at my EASY you're right it's very confusing :( She would sometimes take a second 30mins nap mid A time and I would then feed at the normal time. I'm hoping cracking the naps will help us naturally find a new EASY that's better for us both. :)
OOHD - sounds like we have two peas in a pod!!! Did you brave the DF? I think I've decided that it might be more disruptive to start it now and going to stick with tackling her naps and routine in the hope the nights get better!! How was your night? X
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Good morning
I too wimped out of the DF but was then secretly pleased that she woke up herself at midnight thinking that was my chance to see if she would take a feed and sleep through. Well she took a feed, seemed to settle but within 10 minutes was awake crying and it took around 15 minutes to settle her. Then another waking 4am - tried to settle with shhing and pupd but after 20-30 mins (felt like an hour at the time) I got worried in case she was genuinely hungry. So I took her out and fed her...and yeah she wasn't really hungry! I hoped the oxytocin would at least make her drowsy but she was wide awake and mad at being put back in the cot. Another 30mins or so and she went back to sleep - awake at 7.40am. So I'm not sure about introducing a DF just yet!!
Morning nap she seemed to go down ok but then only lasted 40 mins :-( I got her up when it was obvious she wouldn't resettle and decided to stay in (we usually go out for a bit afterwards nap1) and watch for the first sleepy sign. It came just an hour later - she gets spaced out and sighs -and I started wind down and she is getting a bit drowsy and I am thinking I AM ON THIS - put in cot and she is wide awake babbling. Think to myself okay, maybe she's winding herself down...actually she was preparing for more tears :-( :-( 30 minutes later she falls asleep and we're 20mins into that nap. I don't expect a good one.
Thanks Naomi I would post our routine except that I wouldn't know where to start because we HAD a routine until a few weeks ago that was working well, though it was an AES routine which endd up part of the problem. Then my lo turned the tables and stopped sleeping with all the 'props' we had and things went awry. I tried some no cry sleep solution tips and shush pat and nothing worked so staryed pupd last Friday. Through I've tried to stick loosely to our old routine while working on fixing the eat before sleep and nap length, as you know it hasn't worked and day to day I'm facing short naps leading to shorter A times during the day and earlier bedtimes to compensate which = no routine to speak of. I have an ideal EAS but is there any point posting that? Just a bit lost at the mo :-( lo is now awake 30 mins into nap 2. Argh.
Amie - sounds like a better night for you - fingers crossed for another. I am with you on the DF issue :-)x
Just confused.com
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Amie, that does sound like progress, yay! Keep up the consistency and we can look at whether further changes may help in a day or so.
OOHD - when I say post your EAS, it doesn't have to be a routine as such, just post what happens in reality day by day, no baby follows "the rules" fully and the idea is to follow *your* baby. Don't be afraid of it looking messy, they all do :)
And remember everyone here is just a parent like you, you know your child better than anyone, we can just help with the objective overview stuff. I came here when DD was about 6 months old, and loved this place and so I hung around. Hope you love it too, and we can all help each other! Fingers crossed for tonight xx
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Hi ladies sorry for delay in responding our household got hit by the sickness bug :( So far baby hasn't got it I'm praying it stays that way!!!
I thought I'd post a little update to see what you thought our next steps should be. She is now sleeping for approx 1hr in the morning, 1hr at lunchtime and then 45mins in the afternoon - she still stirs after 20-30mins but will generally go back to sleep with a few Ssssh's,this is great progress for us but I'm wondering if she'll ever stop the stirring at 20/30mins???
Our EASY now sort of looks like this;
E 7am
A 2.5hrs Inc Breakfast
S 9.30am (1hr)
E 11am
A 2.5hrs Inc Lunch
S 1.30pm (1hr)
E 3pm
A 1hr 15mins
S 4.15pm (45mins)
Dinner - 5.30pm
Bath - 6.15pm
Bottle & Bed - 6.45pm
She is still waking twice in the night once for a feed and then once for comfort.
Any advice on what to try and tweak next to get even longer naps / better nights would be fab - I know this is a work in progress and will need changes :)
OOHD - how are you getting on? xxx
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I don't think that most babies need more total daytime sleep than 2.75 hours at 6 months old, so you will only get longer naps when she starts shortening and then dropping the late afternoon third nap. She's at the right age to do that soon, though they are all different! To me, your routine looks pretty much picture perfect!
If you actually try the dream feed, it might replace the MOTN feed. But she still probably needs to eat once more during the night.
Would you like to explain more about the comfort waking? Is it at the same time, or random times? How do you respond? How long does it last?
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I'm sorry to hear you've been poorly, I hope that it does avoid your baby and the rest of you continue to feel week :)
I agree with DE that this is around the time when LOs will start to get rid of that CN and move towards two longer naps. It may be that the waking at 20/30 mins is because of a build up of OT throughout the day as none of the nps are quite long enough to be restorative. You could try lengthening the A times between naps a little more. You might find this link a helpful read:
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
You'd need to lengthen the A times to around 3 hours and possibly being BT a little earlier overall, but you can towards that gradually. What do you think?
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Hi Amie sorry you were poorly, ditto this end!! It looks like your routine is headed in the right direction for sure. It's frustrating though isn't it that just when you start to get a routine established things start to transition and you have to rearrange things!
Things have been pretty horrendous here which is why I couldn't bring myself to post. Night times were starting to get better but naps were steadily going downhill last week and pupd was just not working and it started to undo the progress we'd made at night.One day, maybe Weds we had like 2 20 minute naps and loads of proper crying it was horrendous I ended up crying myself, rocked lo to sleep and she slept for 2 hours on me. I felt terrible for maybe confusing her and also bc it felt like she must just need me more during the day..The next day was awful again I was almost at breaking point when I came down with tonsillitis really bad :'( I was too ill to carry on with ST so resorted to old methods of nursing and rocking to sleep in the day which continues (epic fail I know). Thankfully lo is mostly going to sleep herself on a night with only a small amount of fussing so some progress has been made, but can't help feeling a failure..
I'm now on antibiotics and feeling a bit more human (lo has been untouched by it and is happy as a clam except for OTness at end of the days) but just need to figure out what to do going forward. My lo never managed any self-soothing during the daytime throughout whole 2 weeks of pupd and I don't think I have the stomach to return to it again...
Looks like you're getting good advice on the routine, do you think you'll try stretching A time further? My lo is still only early 5 month old but the last couple of days has really resisted that third nap, making BT tough. I do bring it forward in those instances but it's hard cos OH gets in from work at 615pm so doesn't get to see her really on those days. Sometimes I feel like this sleep obsession is taking over my life :-/ Sorry for the negativity, pleased one of us is making progress :-) :-) xx
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Hi everyone,
All healthy again this end thank you and thankfully baby managed to escape it :)
DE - with the comfort waking she wakes for a short time and after getting her dummy and a few bottom pats she settles back down almost instantly. Previously it's been just the 1 comfort wakening usually between 3-5am but the last few nights she's woken hourly from 3am :(
Iv been working hard to try and help her to self settle at bedtime and after the night feed,9/10 she does it very easily which has been great progress but sometimes I will still need to do the Sssh/pat to settle her in the cot. Naps are a whole different ball game!
After some progress it feels as if she's gone backwards the last few days, she's waking at the 20/30mins mark every nap and is harder to get back down. I do tend to get an hour out of her but it doesn't feel like a restorative hour as it's interrupted with crying and distress. She's also always tired an hour later so I put her back down and she mostly does another 20/30mins - so I'm exhausted with putting her down for approx 4 naps a day sometimes 5 if she has a catnap too!!!!
BB - thank you, I will definitely try lengthening the A time to 3hrs and see if that helps. Would you suggest bringing BT to maybe 6.30pm?. Thank you for the link will give that a read also.
OOHD - gosh it sounds like an horrendous time for you.Please do not feel like a failure if I've learnt anything the last week or so it's that you have to what's right for you all at the time,there will always be another day to start a fresh. And BB made a very good point to me not so long ago,you shouldn't feel bad for being there for your baby you know best and should follow your instinct. I hope things get better for you soon. You shouldn't feel embarrassed to post your routine mine was (and sometimes still feels!) a TOTAL mess but these wonderful ladies on here will be able to offer you some support and advice - I'm sure of it!! I can empathise with the ST taking over your life, I feel it's all I do is read about it and try and implement it he he! I have to say, I found BT much easier if I bought it forward on days she hadn't napped well, just the other day she went to bed at 6pm as had only napped 1hr 30mins all day!! It's very tough though if your OH doesn't get back till after that time but maybe he could spend time with her in the morning if she's an early riser?Bringing her BT forward for a few consecutive days may help sort her OT???Then you could extend it again slowly? x
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Glad to hear you're feeling better honey :)
I do think the routine issues could make a differences, give it a go and see what happens.
Have you recently introduced solids? I just wonder if there is an element of discomfort at all. Waking at 20 mins/30 mins into a nap can be discomfort as well as routine issues, so might be worth ruling that out. Any signs of teething?
I know it can sometimes feel as if ST is taking forever, I remember that feeling well. All i can say is to reassure you that once the routine is more age appropriate then whatever sleep training you do will be easier.
Ideally you want to aim for two naps after at least 1.5 hours each, this is two full sleep cycles for an LO of this age and is more restorative than a shorter nap. If you get a longer nap great, but anything 1.5 hours or longer is considered a good nap here at BW. If you are having naps shorter than that the idea is to slightly ahorten the next A time to put LO down a little earlier to prevent OT.
So for example, you are aiming for a 3 hour A time. So if WU is 7am, you go for the first nap at 10am. If she wakes/stirs do the shh/pat technique to help her resettle. Ideally you would continue to do this until she resettle or until the end of the nap time (so 11.30am ish). I found with my DD I knew that if I'd been shh/patting for more than 15 mins and she wasn't settling then she probably wouldn't. So if you have the same feeling with your DD then you could try for a bit and if she doesn't settle then get her up and start the next A time. So say she wakes at 11, this is less than 1.5 hours sleep so rather than doing a full 3 hour A time, try 2 hours 45 before the next nap - and put her down around 1.45pm (what level of reduction in A time is suitable involves a little trial and error so although I'm setting this out fairly mathematically, you would need to keep an eye out for sleepy cues etc and put down before she gets too tired. Then if you get a longer nap that time (more than 1.5 hours), you could go for another 3 hour A time and try for bed around 6.15/6.30.
If you get a short second nap you might put in a CN around the 2 hour A mark and then go for BT around 7.30ish.
I hope that makes sense. The "perfect" two nap EASY (if such a thing existed) would be:
7am WU
Nap 1: 10 to 11.30pm
Nap 2: 2.30 to 4.00pm
BT: 7p
Or some similar approximation. Some LOs like a longer first A time and a shorter A time before bed (like my DD), some like very equal A times and some like shorter first A and longer to bed. This is really the essence of BW, a flexible routine but based on each LOs needs.
There are some example six month routines here:
chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months
I hope this helps xx