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SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: Martini~ on April 07, 2015, 05:35:49 am
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Please continue from here!
Anyone want to talk about the 3-2 Nap transition? Part 2
If you ever wonder if you should post here or start your own thread:
This thread is a kind of a chat, sharing experience and moaning together. If you need a specific advice, it's always better to start your own thread so nobody misses your shout for help. However you can still stay here and talk with other mammas who are going through the same problem right now. With nap transitions the case is that sometimes nothing helps and you just have to ride it out. And that's when threads like this are so helpful.
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Please can someone help me :(
My ds is coming up to six months. He currently has two naps (1 of 1.5 hours and 1 of 2 hours) and a 30 minute cat nap. He currently does about 2 hours 25 minutes before each of the full naps, 2 hours 15 before the cat nap and then I put him down after about an hour and 15 for bed ( as otherwise the day seems too long). His nights are all over the place. Tonight it has taken 45 minutes of screaming to get him to sleep. He has never fought bedtime like this before. He has also been waking within the first three hours of the night plus early in the morning on some days. I thought that both of these indicated overtired but he is napping better than he has ever done before so I am now wondering if maybe he is getting too much day sleep or we are approaching the 3-2 transition and it is causing everything to go a bit wonky. I have been scared to push his a times up as I don't want to make him more overtired if that is the problem but I know that that is the only way I will be able to get through this if it is the 3-2. Can anyone shed any light? Do I need to push and just deal with the ot until we are through it? He has never been very good at tacking on missed sleep to his night so I am unsure that ebt will help us get through. I am considering capping his naps but am worried if I do this at the same time as increasing his a we are going to get into an ot hole that is difficult to get out of. It all just feels like such a mess.
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How long is your catnap Kfro? Could you post your whole day here in EAS format and I'll take a peek to see if there's anything to change routine-wise?
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Wake up time varies between 6 and 7. If he wakes up earlier than six I don't get him up and either leave him talking to himself if he is happy or try to resettle him if he is crying. For a day starting at 6 the eas would be as follows:
Get up 6
E 630
A 7-825
S 825-1025
E 1030
A 11-1250
S 1250-220
E 230
A 3-435
S 435-505
A 505-550
E 6
S 620 (put down in cot awake)
Sometimes the first nap is less than two hours and sometimes the second nap is longer than 1.5 hours but I cap the second one so that in total he has had 3.5 hours from the two.
Thank you for taking a look....I'm so confused ???
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I think probably UT from your routine....nothing there to suggest OT really :). I would start working on increasing those first and second A times, just 5-10 mins extra low-key activity every few days. That may mean BT becomes later for a bit until you are in a position that around 3h A time after your second nap would get you to a 'reasonable' BT, at which point you can drop the CN and see how it goes.
Do feel free to post over on the naps board too if you need any more specific advice x
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Would you advise trying a shorter catnap (20 mins) or just keep it as it is until we are at 3 hours a time?
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I think it depends on what your LO prefers really. Some do best keeping a 30/40 min catnap and accepting a later BT/shorter night, but if you'd prefer to limit how late BT gets then yes shorten the catnap. Bear in mind you may have to shorten the A time after the CN too if you choose that option as LO may not be able to handle as long awake after a 20 min power nap as they can after 30 or 40 mins x
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Thank you so much for your help :)
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I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right place, but I think I need some help with the 3-2 nap transition. If it needs to be moved back to the Naps board, then that is fine. I posted on the Naps board already and someone suggested to post on the 3-2 transition board to see if I can get some more help.
Here is a little overview: My LO is a little over 5.5mo, exclusively BF, doesn't take a pacifier, and uses a swaddle. I started using shh/pat a little before 4m to teach him to sleep independently. I would say we have made a lot of progress because for most naps, I now just lay him down and keep one hand on his chest until he starts to drift off and then I take it off and leave the room. For the most part, he is asleep within 5 minutes for naps (he has started to refuse and/or take a long time to settle for CN for about 3 weeks now, so I'm having to do some PUPD and holding him longer than I would like in order to calm him). He has pretty much always taken a good morning nap (about 1.20 - 2hr but most days its closer to 2hr. I always wake him at 2hr if he is still asleep). The second nap was usually short (30-45min). With the help from some ladies on another board, I pushed his A time some after the good morning nap and I'm finally started seeing longer naps (closer to 1.30hr). However, once he started taking 2 pretty good naps, the CN is now really nearly impossible. It's hard for me to APOP the CN because I also have a 2.5yo so it makes it hard for him to fall asleep with his loud brother around :)
He has always been harder to get to sleep for BT. Right now it is a real battle! It usually takes at least 30 min and sometimes longer than an hour to go to sleep. I have never let him fall asleep nursing for BT but I'm starting to nurse him more just so he will go to sleep because I know at that point he is very OT. It drives me crazy because he can fall asleep for naps easily and without BF, so I wasn't sure why it was so hard for BT. About 2 weeks ago, he just all of a sudden started falling asleep at BT like he would for naps. He also started having less NWs, and he even STTN once and had a couple of nights with an 8hr stretch. Well that didn't last, and I'm trying to figure out what went wrong. It seemed like when he was doing one good nap and two short naps, he would fall asleep easily at BT and only wake once at night to BF. Now that I am getting two pretty good naps, I can't really get him to take a CN so I try for EBT but it's hard because DH isn't home from work yet and I need help keeping DS1 occupied while trying to get DS2 to bed. Therefore he usually ends up OT by the time I can get him to bed. And if I do get him to take a CN, it is after at least 20min of trying and then it really pushes our day back. I'm then not sure how long to keep him awake before trying for BT. It seems like there is not enough hours in the day to fit it in. It seems like he is getting close to the 3-2 transition, but he cannot stay awake long enough to only have 2 naps. His first A time is still at 2.10hr. His second A time is at 2.30hr. Then if he takes a good nap the second time I can't seem to get him to take a CN any earlier than the 2.30hr A time. Therefore, the day gets really long. I really haven't gotten him to take a CN if his two naps are both at least 1.30.
I need help straightening out these naps and times so that hopefully he can start settling easier at BT. It sure was nice the other week when he STTN and had some long stretches of sleep, so I would love to figure out how to get him to do that again!! Before now, he had been eating only once in the middle of the night for the past month. Now I feel like I'm having to nurse him more. It might just be me taking the easier way out because I'm so tired. Can someone take a look at the last two days and see what you think? Are we ready to try for 2 naps? If so, how would I make it to a decent BT? Adjust any A times or the length of his naps?
Wednesday:
WU-7:15
E: 7:20
A:
S: 9:22-10:46 (A time before this nap was 2hr 7min; Slept 1hr 24min) This was shorter than normal for some reason.
E: 10:50
A:
S: 1:13-2:40 (A time before this nap was 2hr 27min; Slept 1hr 27min)
E: 2:45
A:
S: I tried at 5:05 (A time was 2hr 25min) but he would not go to sleep. I gave up at 5:20 since he showed no signs of going to sleep.
A: Low key activity until DH got home from work so I could get him to bed
E: 6:20-6:50; He wouldn't settle so I BF again around 7:30
S: 7:40
*He only woke at 10:40 so I went ahead and BF again and he slept until 6:45
Thursday:
WU-6:45
E: 6:50
A:
S: 8:53-10:53 (A time before this nap was 2hr 8min; I woke him at 2hr)
E: 10:55
A:
S: 1:20-2:20 (A time before this nap was 2hr 27min; I actually woke him at 1hr thinking he would be able to take the CN but I was wrong)
E: 2:30
A:
S: Tried for CN at 4:55 (pushed A time to 2hr 35min) but he wouldn't settle. I gave up at 5:15
A: Low key activity
E: 5:50-6:25
S: Went right to sleep at 6:30
*He woke right back up at 7 and cried for well over an hour. DH tried settling him but didn't work, so I fed again at 8:15 and he went to sleep around 8:40. Got up again at 10:30 so I fed again and then he slept until 6:30.
Thank you so much for any help you can give me! It's getting pretty hard around our house at BT with the 2.5yo and the baby crying! I appreciate your help and support :)
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If you are getting CN refusal then yes you need to start transitioning, unless you can APOP the CN in the car/sling/stroller? To be able to handle 2 naps your LO does need to be able to manage around 3h A time though so despite getting good naps you will need to work on actively stretching his A times around 10 mins every 3-4 days. Keep the extra A time low-key and maybe work on one A at a time if you think he is touchy or struggles with OT. I had a rule that if second nap ended at or after 3pm I skipped CN and went for bed 3h after waking from nap. If it ended earlier then I would try my hardest for a CN. Since you are getting refusal around the 2h30 mark for a CN I would try putting down at 2h45 and see if that makes a difference. If you can't get the CN it will be messy for a time but just do the earliest BT you can manage.
Your day with 2h30ish A could be something like:
WU 7
Nap 9.30-11.30
Nap 2-3.30
Skip CN and BT 6/6.30pm
Or if naps shorter
WU 7
Nap 9.30-11
Nap 1.30-3
Either skip CN and BT 6pm, or CN 5.45-6.15 and BT 7.15/30
Does that help?
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Thanks for your response! Like I mentioned, it's hard to APOP the CN because big brother is distracting. We do APOP the CN in the car when I take DS1 to music class one afternoon a week, but the last two weeks he hasn't been falling asleep anymore in the car. So, I'm thinking I'm going to have to try to start transitioning. I have two questions:
1. I am nervous to push the first A time since he falls asleep right when I put him down and sleeps so good, but if that's what I need to do then I'll give it a try. I did notice on the average A times bookmark that at late 5mo-6mo they are moving towards 3h and that A time for him is still right under 2.10. Do you think this is where I need to start? Maybe just push it by 10 min?
2. Another concern I have is getting him to bed after a CN. I have noticed in the last 3 weeks since he started resisting/refusing CN that he doesn't seem tired at BT if he takes a CN. So if I do 2 naps and a CN then I feel like he needs more A time before BT but there's just not enough time without making the day extremely long. I noticed you suggested BT about 1hr after CN, but I'm not sure he will do that. Any suggestions?
Take a look at yesterday. Well, last night was amazing!! He took a 2hr nap in the morning, but then woke at 30min for his second nap (he also took 20min to go to sleep - This was all strange for him). Since he took a 30 min nap I was able to get him to take the CN (also took 20min to fall asleep). Then I gave him A time of 1.40 before BF aiming for BT to be about 2.15 after he woke from CN. I used to aim for 2hr after CN but he just didn't seem tired. This actually worked! He was more awake BF which I think is part of our problem. When he doesn't CN and is up for a long time, he dozes off BF and I think gets mad when I wake him to get in bed. So last night he ate well, let me sing to him, and put in bed. He fell asleep in about 15min, which is great for what he's been doing!! He woke an hour later but DH settled him pretty quickly, and then he didn't wake to eat until 4:40am! I know taking two 30min naps probably isn't good, but we were able to fit in the CN and extra time before BT. He did have almost a 13hr day though. I don't know what to make of this! It could just be a coincidence that 1 good nap and 2 short naps = no BT battle and good nights sleep. Maybe it was the fact that he wasn't too tired for BF and actually fell asleep in bed an not on me. But I don't know how to do that every night if I can't get him to CN!
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Well I thought him taking 20min to fall asleep for the second nap and napping 30min was just an off day, but he did it again today. It took him 10min to go to sleep but it was all crying and fussing. Is that a sign he's ready for a push in A time?
I originally thought I would start with the morning A time since it's shorter but he's doing good with that nap. What do you think?
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:(
It feels so messy.
We are in the storm of wonder week leap five but I still feel like there is more to this. We were doing really well at 230 a time but increasing it to 240 seems to have turned everything upside down. I increased the a time in order to be able to get rid of the catnap soon as it is getting really hard to fit the catnap in but maybe I need to just deal with that for a little bit longer? Today he was difficult to settle for all naps and bt has been horrendous.... Full on screaming. Is this ww behaviour? Or typical of the 3-2?
Was thinking of reducing a time to 230 again as he has seemed so tired all day today but if this is 3-2 shenanigans then I don't want to prolong it and make him even more tired iykwim?
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Mom2012 - yes you will need to push that first A despite a good nap. I suspect he's tacking on night sleep at the moment because of the long A before bed and NWs. Just push 10 mins, keep it low key and hold for 3-4 days before increasing again. And push the second A too if he is resisting his nap. If he's not tired at BT after a CN, do BT slightly later :). It's normal to have a long day leading up to nap transitions. Sorry I realise I may have suggested BT 1h after a CN, I agree that may be too soon but 1.5-2h should be fine so with my second suggestion a 7.45/8pm BT after a 30 min CN, or closer to 7.30 after a 20 min CN. If that's too early again, cut the CN shorter or push BT later. I think the day with two 30 min naps he probably crashed at BT :-\. It works for a day or so but then OT gets set in very quickly, so pushing your As to get two decent naps well-distributed in the day will help.
Kfro have you got a post going somewhere on naps? If LO is OT you may need to pull back As for a day to allow catch-up, but usually then need to push on or you get stuck in UT/OT loops.
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Ok, he has done the longer morning nap and 2 short naps now for 3 days. He is going to bed easily at BT and only waking once or twice, but I agree he does need two good naps.
His morning nap the last two days has been shorter than normal (around 1hr 20min) so maybe he's ready for a push in A time. Do I just do 10min increase for the morning time or also increase for the second nap? The morning is 2hr 10 min right now and after that nap it's 2hr 30 min.
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I would push the morning A 10 mins, and if you get 1.5h or more then push the second A as well x
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Ok I'll give it a try today. Thanks!
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Good luck x
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Yeah I did.....but I didn't hear back so I thought I may not have been posting in the right place :-X
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He went right to sleep still this morning when I added the 10min but he still napped about 1hr 20min. I kept the second A time the same as usual and he's been asleep now for 45min. Let's say I'm able to get him to take a CN later and he has a later BT, how long do I let him sleep tonight? If he has a longer than 12 hour day, do I have him sleep less than 12hr at night?
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Kfro can you link your thread?
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I have found the post (although have realised it was started when ds was four months and then progressed until he was five months.... So a good month ago) but I have no idea how to link it?
4 month old sleep all over the place
Not sure if the above works?
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Ah ok if it's a month or two old I would start a new one with the updated info xx
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I believe I'm joining in here. DD2 is 5.5 months and has been a great sleeper since birth and naps easily. Lately she has been EW and having multiple NWs so I think we are at the 3-2. Below is our current routine I guess my only question is what happens to the food(E) when you go to two naps?
WU 645/7
E 7
A 2.5-2.75
S 930
E 11
A 2.5 hours
S 1330
E 1500
A 2.5 hours
S 530 CN 30min we wake her
A 630 bath
E 7/715
BT 730/745
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We did E at WU, after each nap and at BT. So not a strict 4h in between but still four feeds in the day. Solids will come into the mix soon and we gave those an hour after milk. If your LO can't last the 4h+ between the first two feeds particularly you can offer a top-up pre-nap x
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Right now I wake DD2 from her naps. I did that with my older LOs too. How long should the two naps be? 2 hours each. Total of 4 hrs daytime sleep?
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Two naps of 1.5-2h usually :). If naps are more like 1.5h, you will have a shorter day, if naps are 2h each you'd tend to have a longer day but whatever suits your LO best x
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Jessmum46,
Since my last post about a week ago, I increased the morning A time by 10min and he only napped 30min for two days. The third day my mother in law had him and she put him down 10min later and he slept almost 2hr. I decided to go with that the next day and again he slept 30min. He did that the rest of the week and all of his naps after that were short as well. It was hard to make it to a decent BT every day. It was a rough week with more NWs too. He also started rolling in his swaddle so we had to take his arms out so that probably didn't help, but I think he is used to arms out now.
So now A times are at 2hr 30min. Yesterday he finally napped better. He did 1hr 20min for the first nap and almost 2hr for the second nap. I had to do CN 2hr 45min A time but he took it, which put BT pretty late but it worked. However, he woke up a lot earlier than I expected. He went to bed at 8pm and woke at 6am. Not sure if that's normal due to the long day, but he only woke once in the night!
Now, do I continue to push the A time by 10min? I did the last 10min increase for 4 days. Is my goal to keep extending it by 10min every 3-4 days until we reach 3hr?
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Mom2012 - if you are getting good naps where you are, with no CN refusal or NWs/EWs then I would stay put. However if having the CN causes you to have a short night (I would consider 10h pretty short) then you may just need to do as you said and aim to push the A times just a little more so that an EBT becomes feasible rather than doing the CN. Once you get to about 2h45-3h across the day two naps should be fine. So you are nearly there!
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Thanks for the advice. I had went ahead and decided to increase 10min yesterday. First nap was 1hr 30min but second nap was only 35min and he had a harder time going to sleep. Again today, first nap was 1hr 41min and second nap only 30min and also hard to get to sleep. Do you think I shouldnt have increased both? Should I go back or stick with it? I had been doing that 2hr 30min A time for the second nap for almost a month and the majority of the time its a short nap so I thought he might need more A time. Now I don't know if he needs more or less! This is so difficult to figure out!!
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I tried for a third nap 2hr 20min later and tried for 25 min to get him to sleep. No luck!!! Is that an appropriate time after a 30min nap?
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Well I'm thinking the 10min increase was perfect for the morning nap. It's been 3 days and he's taking naps that are at least 1hr 30min. However, second nap is still about 30min. He's taking longer to fall asleep also. Does that mean I should increase again just for that nap? It seems like the A time increases so quickly.
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It really can at this age. 30 min naps can be OT, though sometimes we see them if UT. If your gut instinct is to push the A then try it for 3-4 days, if it backfires you can always pull back again x
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Hi all, we are trying to cut the third nap but I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing ???
Ds is 9 months in a couple of days, he started fighting the third nap between 6 and 7 months and it was getting later and later and we were having EWs. One day he didn't go down at all for the last nap, so we put him down at 6.30 and he slept till 6! we were pretty amazed so thought that was the solution. Then we went on holiday for two weeks (he was 8 months) and he could not stay up for more than 2.30 hours, so back to three naps, but it was ok, he slept till 6 most days.
Now we have been back for about two weeks and started increasing his awake time again. Some days we have only two naps and he goes to sleep early, other days we have to have another nap. The problem now is that he's starting waking at 5am again! I have read lots of posts in here and it seems that it's quite normal to have EWs during this transition.
Now my question is: do I keep giving him the nap if his second nap ends too early or do I try to cut the nap completely and try to stretch the awake time until we can get back to a proper BT (7-7.30)? As of yesterday we are on 2.55 awake time.
At the moment his routine is pretty much like this:
if he wakes at 6:
6.30 eat, then breakfast about an hour later
8.55 nap, usually about an hour
10 wake, 10.30 lunch
13ish nap, another hour or a bit more (we don't tend to get more than 1h20 apart from rare occasions when he sleeps for 2h, but could be also 30 mins here)
so now, if he sleeps till 2 or later I usually don't give him another nap and put him down by 6/6.15
Yesterday he woke at 5.15, kept him up till 8.10, slept two hours, but then he went down for his second nap at 13.05 and only slept 30 min ( I was expecting this because of his long morning nap), so managed to get another 25 min nap between 16.30 and 17 bed at 18.25
Also, what is the latest he should have the third nap, I'm thinking 4/4.30?
Thank you very much in advance!
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Hi LSM, you may get more replies if you post a thread out on the main naps board as this support thread is t very active right now.
But just in general I'd say push to get rid of that catnap, your LO can probably handle more awake time than you think especially as you aren't getting full naps (1.5h+) with the A times you are offering. I would push for a minimum of 3h first thing and then push that 10 mins every 3-4 days until you are consistently getting a longer nap. The 1h ish nap is probably UT, he goes to sleep easily because he is used to short A times but isn't tired enough to complete a good two sleep cycles. If you get a bit brave and push things I think you'll be done with this transition sooner rather than later as 9 months is pretty late to still be on 3 naps :).
I would tend to opt for early bedtime unless both the first and second naps have been a complete disaster. In which case offer a very short catnap to get you to a reasonable bedtime but only 15-20 mins. There's no absolutes about what time to offer it but you'll need a good 1.5-2h A time afterwards so bear that in mind x
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Thank you jessmum46 for your kind reply. I did post a thread and got some advice, pretty much what you said! As from yesterday no CN and 3h+ awake time. We'll continue on the other thread, thanks again!
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Hello,
my 2nd LO is having a hard time with the 3-2 transition…she is just a mess lately.
She is 9 months - just getting over a cold, and has just cut her first 2 bottom teeth. She is a spirited/angel type….my son was such a textbook, you could set a clock to his transitions/naps/milestones etc….she is throwing me for a loop!
She was sleeping 7-7 from 3-7 months with a dream feed - then when I tried to drop the dream feed, she went a bit off…but still made it most of the night (she is a thumb sucker at night, so she tends to self sooth) however recently she's started early waking
typical day right now looks like this:
3:30am waking (sometimes I feed her if she looks famished, otherwise try to identify issue play, teeth etc
4:30-6:00 - falls back asleep most days….Breastfeed
Breakfast - solids (cereal, fruit - 2-3oz)
8-8:30 Nap - usually 45min-1.5 hrs
10am - Snack - Breastfeed (fussy usually too busy to take much of a feeding, even in a quiet room)
11:00 - Lunch (3 oz solids, fruit, veg, protein, oats)
12:30-1pm - 2nd nap - 45min to 1.5 hours = waking around 2pm…..
3pm - Snack - breastfeed
(sometimes I still try to get her to take a catnap, but she usually just fusses and cries for 20-30 mins)
4:30 - dinner 3oz protein, grains, fruit, veg
6:00 - bedtime routine including breastfeed
* Some nights she will fall asleep right away at wish…other nights she flops and fusses until 8-8:30pm….
she has been pretty good at self soothing and putter herself to sleep, I've been doing sush-pat etc…trying not to accidental parent her out of her good sleep habits…bit with a 2.5 year old making noise and wanting attention…its so hard!
I'm hoping this is teething pain/9 month growth spurt issues messing with her….but It's been on like this for a few weeks now…I don't want it to become habit….any thoughts????
help appreciated!
thank you parents
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Have a quick look at the post above, I think you are in a very similar situation! I would just start pushing her two naps later in the day to even the day up a bit and stop her being so tired by bedtime. She doesn't need a catnap at her age, that is likely causing problems for you. So aim more like:
WU 6
Nap 9 ideally for 1.5-2h
Nap 1.30/2ish
BT 6.30pm ish
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thanks - but by 9, she is usually fitful and overtired…hard to get down for a nap that late…
I wish I could do naps at 9 and 1…that would make my early bed/early rise situation better…but hard to get it to happen, any thoughts on that?
as per her spirited/angle nature…when she's on, she is good as gold…then she snaps into spirited mode and bucks, screams for attention etc…when she is OT or OS…..is 0 or 100 with her…no in between! lol
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I'm a fan of the quick shift to be honest, so for daylight savings I just move everything 1h, meals, naps, BT all at once and deal with the mess for a day or two. A bit tough but kind of gets them there quicker than messing about! But you can do a gradual shift, so just extend first A by 10-15 mins every few days until you get to where you want to be x
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My little one is 5 months and 1 week and thanks to following EASY from 8 weeks she's been a great sleeper sleeping through til 7 since she was about 12 weeks. However the last 2 weeks she's been waking at different times chatting. First week it was short bursts up to 20 min at 1/3/4am which gradually shifted to a 5am chatty wake up. First night for 20 min, then 40, then an hr and then an hour and a half 2 days in a row. Tried lots of stuff over the 2 weeks to set her back but nothing seemed to work but the last two days she's only had 2 naps and it's got better.
Wednesday she had 1hr 45 nap in the morning and 2hr 20 in afternoon which i woke her up from at 3.40 and then she went through til bedtime at 6.15. Thurs morning was better as she woke up at 5.10 chatty til 5.30 then slept til 6.15 left her chatting and got her up at 6.45.
Thursday she had a 1 hr morning nap and I decided to let her sleep til she woke from afternoon nap and she slept for 2hr 45 waking at 3. I put her to bed at 6pm and she slept through til 6am 😃
So seems like she's aiming to drop the cat nap but she seems really young to do that and it also means bedtime is really early and I'd like her to start the day at 7am not 6am.
Any advice on the transition would b really appreciated. Also what would you do at the 6am wake up ... leave til 7am as she's happily chatting away? Even though she slept 12hrs??
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Hi Honey! 5 mo is not so early for a nap transition and if your two other naps are good it's possible. To make her survive you can either push A times so the nap are more equally divided through the day. The thing which I did as pushing A tired DS soo much and two looong naps gave him paradoxically more sleep (2+2) than 1.5+1,5+15-20min, was capping the first nap for a period of time and having short-long-short routine. When he was readu we move to 2 naps routine at 7-8 months.
Ahhh, and I would cap the first nap not the second. It better to have longer sleep in the middle of the day and shorter naps in the morning prevent EWU.
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She's now been asleep 1hr 45 for her morning nap. Was going to wake her but then decided to leave her and now thinking I should wake her.
Although wouldn't a
7am wake up
9am nap
11am wake up
1.15pm nap
3pm wake up
6pm bed
Be an ok routine? Although ideally I'd rather a 6.30/7 bedtime.
She did only have 1hr yesterday as her first nap and then woke later this morning so maybe I should have capped today's! ! Always feel like I'm 2nd guessing myself and never sure what to do.
Ideally I'd like to stretch the first nap to 9.30 start time as feel that would then push the day forward.
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The routine could be fine... but!!! Firstly try to sum up the total sleep during 24/h. With nap transitions, even with one nap less and some A times longer, overall sum of A/S shouldn't be shorter/longer than on 3 naps routine, IYKWIM? So with routine you proposed she would have (I will sum sleep): 2:00+1:45+13:00 = 16:45h of sleep per 24h. If that's similar to what she has before, that's fine. If more, I wouldn't go for that routine...:).
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Ta. That's a really good way to look at it.
Before her sleep became all muddled she was sleeping 16 1/4 hours 12 hours at night plus 4hr 15 from naps.
Utlimately I'd like to aim for a 6.30/7 bedtime so if I did that would work out the total amount of sleep aspect.
Today she's only had 3hr 45 nap time from 2 naps which is what she also had yesterday as well with 12hrs sleep so 15hr 45 total sleep.
So nap time total is shorter than previously.
She looks so tired now tho more so than this time yesterday not sure how she will stay awake till 6 but going to start bedtime routine at 5.15 so hopefully that will be a wind down for her and currently she is just calmly lying on her mat with some toys.
I could put her down now for a 30 min cat nap but 5.15 just seems too late for that?? Do u think I'm best off sticking with the two naps and earlier bedtime?
Recently when trying to put her down for a cat a she really screams and then when she's finally asleep she's tough to wake and stares daggers as if too say I'm down for the night thanks especially after hubby had her on Sunday and all the nap fighting meant she eventually napped at 5.30 and he woke her at 6 but she was not happy!
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It depends on you Honey. If she had 12+4:15 after that age I would go for 15:45 approximately so 30min less. It means that with two nap routine you would have lonooong A:
7am wu
9:45-11:45
14:30-16:15
7pm BT
with 3x2:45 A time. Is it feasible? It's much more than she had recently. But if you go with capping first nap and fitting a catnap there, she can be on a 3-nap routine for a tad longer and you will transit her to 2 naps when she it ready to handle 2:45 A times 4x times a day.
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Put her down at 6 last night so 3hr 15 awake time before bed and she slept til 6am then on off between 6 & 7.
Today she's had the 3hr 45 total nap time again
7am wu
9.45 nap (2hr 45 awake but went this long due to swimming lesson)
11.30 wu
13.45 nap (2hr 15 awake time)
15.45 wu
Going to aim for 6.30/6.45 bed time and see how we go.
Cheers for your help and insight
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Great:) keeping my fingers crossed!
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Anyone else still on this thread?
We're at an awkward stage of 3-2 where 2 naps isn't enough sleep & 3 naps is too much. DD seems to always be either OT or UT at bedtime and both are giving us EW- 5 or 5.30 every morning this week. Sometimes she resettles by 6 for another 40 mins or so sometimes not.
DD is 6mo & on 3hrs A time when well rested, 2.30-2.45 if tired. Her days vary but a 2 nap day is usually one of 45-60min in the morning and one of 1.5-2hrs early afternoon - finishing between 2.30-3. I then aim for 6pm BT but it's sometimes late if things get held up by older brother DS.
If DD gets OT or won't resettle on EW we end up with a 3nap day- usually similar to the above but with a catnap of 15-20min late afternoon.
It feels like DD gets OT on 2naps, catches up with 3 but is then UT, has 2naps and goes back to OT. Any suggestions on how to get out of this OT/UT loop? I'd love to sleep past 5.30 again!!
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Here are our last few days in EASY format:
Mon:
Wu: 5.40, wouldn't go back to sleep, in dark until 7am
E: milk at 7; breakfast at 8
A: 3hr20
S 9-10.15 (1hr15)
E: 11
A: 2hr55
S: 13.10-15.00 (1hr50)
E:milk at 15.00 tea at 17.00
A: 3hr30
E:milk 17.50
S: in bed 18.00, chatting, not settling, asleep at 18.30
(NW: 11 & 3 for feeds)
Tues
Wu: 5.40 back to sleep 6am
Wu & E: 7.00milk ; solids at 8
A: 3hrs
S: 10-11 (1hr)
E: 11
A: 2hr45 (tired as it had been DS' party that morning)
S: 13.45-15.15
E: 15.20milk; solids at 17.00
A:3hr30
E: milk 18.15
S: bed 18.30, asleep 18.45
(NWs: 10.30feed 1-2 feed at 2)
Wed:
Wu: 6.30
E:7milk solids at 8
A: 3hr
S: 9.30-10.10 (40mins)
E:11
A: 3hr
S:13.10-14.45
E: 15.00 milk, solids at 17.30 (running late!)
A: 3hr30
E:milk 18.00
S: 18.15 asleep immediately
(NWs 9,9.30, 10, 10.30(feed) & 2.30 feed)
Thurs:
Wu: 4,45 back to sleep 5.45-6.30
Wu: 6.30
E 7milk & 8 solids
A: 2hr40 seemed very tired
S: 9.10-9.30
E: 11
A: 2hr
S: 11.30-1.30
E: 13.45 solids, 15.00milk (solids earlier as tea would clash with nursery run)
A: 2hr55
S:4.25-4.40
A: 2hr20
E: 18.15
S:in bed 18.40 asleep 19.00
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Scottishmummy,
I could have written your post myself. We are in the exact same position with our 6.5 month DD! The early wake ups are killing me! Any chance you have made it through and have some advice for us?
It feels like as soon as we fixed naps, this happened, need to feel like things will eventually settle (but not too eventual if you know what I mean!)
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Hello Gully!
Apologies, I have only just seen your post.
We did eventually get past the EWs...after a while DD started consistently taking 2 good naps in the day but then also started refusing to go to sleep a night. We ended up pushing her last A time to 30-45 mins longer than her other A times and that seemed to fix the EWs.
How's your DD doing now?
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Hi all,
My LO is 23 weeks (5.5) months and I think she's ready to drop the cat nap.
Our current day looks like this:
WU 4 (resettle)
WU 5 (resettle)
WU 6/6.30
E 7/7.30
S 9-10.30 (she only sleeps 45 minutes then I need to resettle but she goes back over pretty easily)
E 11
S 1-2.30 (again need to resettle after 45 mins)
E 3
S 5/5.30 (about 40 minutes)
E 7/7.30
Bedtime 7.30 (aim for eyes shut by then)
She is getting increasingly difficult to settle after only 2.5 hours A time.
This morning we did
WU 4 (resettle)
WU 5.30 (resettle)
WU 6.20
E 7.15
S 9.30 (took 5 minutes ssh/pat) woke up 10.10 screaming, took 10 minutes ssh/pat and lots of crying!
If we do 2 naps when do I feed in the afternoon? I assume she'll still wake up at the same time and still take her first nap at 9-10.30 ish (hopefully)
So:
WU 6/6.30
E 7
S 9-10.30
E 11
S 1.30-3/3.30
E Just when she wakes up?
But then 3/3.30-7 is far far too long for bedtime. And she's still to get another bottle.
I'm so confused and I've done this before! ???
Any advice? My first wasn't as difficult as this little one, she was a typical "angel" baby. This LO is "touchy" to say the least!
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Hi! Sorry you've not had any replies yet, this chat thread is quiet at the moment.
Have you read this link: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
Re feeds- yes feed after she wakes from 2nd nap, then do a shorter CN, or an early BT if she won't take a CN (or if CN is affecting night sleep) & give BT milk early. Once little ones are on to 2 naps there are 2 milk feeds between end of last nap and BT.
She might need a slight A time increase to get past that 45 min resettle but it looks like the jump to 3hrs the other day was too much too soon. You could try pushing to 2hr45 to start with.
If more advice would be helpful, please start a thread on the main naps board.
Good luck xxx
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Hi there I think I might join in. DS2 is 5 months 2 weeks and naps are rubbish, I'm not sure if I need an A increase but tonight had 30 min CN 5-5.30 and at 8pm was rolling about in the cot blowing bubbles shouting about ::)
This child baffles me, I thought second time round it was supposed to be easier lol x
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It's funny how different a 2nd child can be. DD started the 3-2 at 5mo..I was so surprised as DS was still often still doing 4 naps at that age!
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Well today he's had 2 naps, last nap ended at 3.30 so wasn't enough time to get another one in but missed the sleep window at 6.15 by big brother being loud, so then had happy manic OT ages to settle baby ::)
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My first didn't do 3-2 until 6 months... ds2 started 3-2 transition at 4 months.... at 5.5 months we are just about done with 3-2. All so different!
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Hey ladies. Just started on the 3-2 transition today after some helpful advice received in my thread in the Night Waking section. I have a 4.30 am chatterbox! :D
Just went through the 3-2 post and figured out what I should be aiming for (based on a 6-6.30am WU and a 6.30pm BT):
A 6am - 9 am
S 9 am - 10.30 am
A 10.30 am - 1.30 pm
S 1.30 pm - 3 pm
A 3 pm - 6.30 pm
I know that makes the last awake time kind of long (baby is 5.5 months) but I guess we have to build up toward this over the next few weeks anyway. Currently on 4 hourly bottles plus 1-2 feeds of solids a day so hopefully he can stretch to 4.5 hourly feeds.
Anyway just wanted to say hi and will check in if I have any questions or can offer any observations :)
Nic
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hi,
My son just turned 7 month old and I have two older kids. Our days are quite busy with school runs and activities so we are not home much in the mornings. When we are home, my son has two 1.5/2 hour naps (at 9.15 and 1) and one catnap at 4.30, which is getting shorter lately, now around 20mins. When we are not at home our day looks like this:
7am wake bf
9ish sleep in the car 30 mins
10.30/11 sleep in car 30 mins
11ish bf
12.30/1 sleep 2/2.5 hours
2.30ish wake bf
4.30/5 sleep, was 30 mins now around 20
5.30 solids
6.30 bedtime routine, bf
7 sleeps til morning
My question is, since he's not having much sleep in the morning because we're out, should I still keep that catnap going in the afternoon? he does get tired but he's fighting it the last week or two. Thanks in advance :-)
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Hello welcome to BW forums :)
If your DS is adaptable to the different routines on different days (he does seem to be based on your two different routines) then I'd suggest a home routine where the CN is dropped - and if possible move the two naps a bit later so that it is not a very long A time to BT or do a slightly earlier BT. And a not-home routine where you keep the 4.30pm CN - and if possible drop one of the morning CNs instead so that the day becomes CN, long nap, CN. With one of the morning CNs dropped he might be more willing to go down for the late afternoon CN to make that easier but each A time wouldn't get overly long. It's just that if you reduce the late afternoon one and then drop it there is a very long A time between nap and BT and I assume you have the school run to fit in.
Many people have non-standard routines to fit around school etc, if you find something that suits you and your LO and the family then that's ideal even if it isn't two long naps every day.
hope this helps :)
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(I apologize for the english, I'm trying my best)
Hello, I'm from Brazil and me and my husband have applied Tracy Hogg's methods since our LO was 5 days old.
Now he is 5 1/2 mo, sleeps independently and is only breast fed.
For the past 10 days he has early waking ( by 5:20 am), I read about it here in the forum, so I'm trying the 3-2 transition naps for the last 3 days.
The problem is it doesn't seem to be working.
Our routine yesterday:
5:20 am woke up (not crying); I waited 10 min, I gave him his pacifier
6:15 am woke up, BF
8:30 am nap (I tried to stretch the longest he supported, but he had all signs of tiredness)
10:00 am BF + A
13:00 pm nap
14:20 pm BF + A
17:00 pm CN 20 min (was so tired) --> BF
19:20 bath + BF (a little, almost nothing)
20:00 pm overtired, BT (easily)
04:15 am noises, slept by himself ( by this moment I thought this would work as "wake to sleep")
05:20 am woke up, 10 min hearing, I gave his pacifier, slept
06:15 am BF
08:15 am nap (very tired)
I feel it's hard pushing his first A time by the morning.
I mean, am I doing anything wrong ? Bath time too late ?
Should I not give him the pacifier by 5 am ??
I'd appreciate if anyone could help us. Thank you.
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Hello wise helpful reader!
My little miss is almost 6 months. She is mostly a great nighttime sleeper but her daytimes have become troublesome. She wakes from her day naps after 30-45mins. I have tried the PU/PD and the wake to sleep methods but they really haven't worked. When she does wake up shes mostly happy, like she is ready to play. She isnt crying - just being vocal/ chatting thats shes awake and ready for some company. Shes on the 4 hour EASY and if after the 1st nap (9am) i try to keep her up til the next 1pm nap (kind of hoping she will sleep longer). Sometimes this will result in a 1hr+ish nap or just another 40min nap. Her evening catnap (5.15pm) she easily sleeps 45mins then we wake her. As i said night times aren't an issue she may wake once around 5am but easily goes back to sleep til 7am. She falls asleep easily enough and we have a quiet wind down so she isn't overstimulated, just having trouble extending her nap lengths.
Currently:
7am Awake (BF)
9am Nap (duration up to 40mins - try to resettle til 11am)
11am Feed (BF)
1pm Nap (duration 40mins - 1hour - try to resettle til 3pm)
3pm Feed (bottle)
5.15pm Catnap
7pm feed (bottle)
8pm Bedtime (have tried to bring it back but she just wakes earlier in the morning)
So im wondering if i should be increasing her Awake time to 3hours and dropping the CN? Also what would the Feeding times look like? As shes mix fed i just want to make sure she doesn't get hungry.
My only other thought is at nighttime we still swaddle her but during the day she is arms out in a sleeping bag. I'm half tempted to start swaddling her again during the day but i dont want to go backwards as i like that she has her freedom. She's also started sitting up on her own this last week so not sure if thats adding to the sleep issue .. but the issues been going on atleast 1 month now.
I would love any thoughts and suggestions please as im running out of ideas!!!!
Thank you for taking the time :)
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Hello! I was wondering if I need to transition my LO from 3-2 naps and whether that would be a solution to our sleeping issues. He's 4.5 months (20 wks) and quite a big baby. He has been on a 3.5 EASY (sometimes going even 4h) and dropped the 4th CN since 2.5 months without any problems. Until a few weeks ago his naps were 2, 1.5h and 40 min.and he was sleeping good stretches of 6-7 and 3-4h per night, waking once to feed and once around 5. In the past few weeks he started to wake up at 3h max during the night, sometimes even every half hour especially after 4 a.m. His naps have become shorter - 1.5h and 2×40 min.and it takes him a lot of time and fussing to fall asleep. He used to be asleep within 5 min.after I would put him into his crib! And he also won't eat as much as he used to, seems to be distracted and more interested in the world around him, even when I'm bf in a quiet dim room. I thought that's the reason why his naps are shorter - waking up hungry at 3h, but I'm not sure. I would really appreciate your advice!
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It does sound like it's time for more A time, if not for 2 naps just yet. What is his A time right now? I would probably push it 10 mins or so and hold for a few days to assess, then push a bit more if needed. That might mean you need to have a shorter catnap and/or slightly later bedtime for a time until he gets to the point where 2 naps will get him through the day (at which point you will probably need an EBT for a bit). Have you seen the 3-2 information in the FAQs?
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Thank you for your reply! I read it, that's how I found this thread :) I try to put him to bed at 1h40-1h50 A time - depending when he starts to be sleepy and cranky, so that he's asleep by 2h. We have been spending more time at home lately so maybe I'm missreading his cues and crankiness means he's bored and needs a change of scene? Today was the worst day ever. He had 1h20 morning nap - I had to extend at 40 min.which is his cycle, then at 2h A time it took him 25 min.fussing and crying to fall asleep. He woke up after 40 min and I thought I needed to put him for his 3 nap earlier, fearing he might get OT, but wouldn't sleep until 16.50, 3h40 min after he woke up. He slept for 40 min.again, woke up all cranky and fussy, had a bath, he wouldn't BF and I struggled to give him a bottle of EBM so he wouldn't be hungry and finally went to fell asleep just now after I tried to put him to bed for 40 min. He's not my perfect textbook LO anymore :( I'll try extending A time starting tomorrow morning and see what happens. Will I need to somehow adjust his feeds since he hasn't started solids yet, doesn't eat much and becomes hungry at 3-3.5h tops?
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I found that as we extended A time we could just stick with a eat, activity, sleep pattern and actually LO would go a bit longer between feeds than I expected as they were having a good nap. You may be surprised :) But if he genuinely does start waking early from naps from hunger, you could always give a bit of a top-up pre-nap and then feed properly on waking. From what you've said above I do think extending a bit may help - that first mid-nap WU at 40 mins makes me wonder if he's just not quite tired enough to connect cycles together properly. After a short nap I never found reducing the A time by much very helpful actually. I would go for a near-normal A time and hopefully you'll at least get a resettle x
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Here's my update hoping it may help someone: I started increasing A time to deal with NW but nothing changed until one day we had only 2 naps - that night he slept much better. Since I was not quite sure whether that was the reason, after that night I tried putting him for a 3rd nap twice in 4 days and each time he would have a 3rd nap, no matter how short (once I even woke him up after 5 min!) he would wake up every 1-2h during the night. With 2 naps we got progressively from 8 NW to 3 in 3 days (hopefully we'll get to just 1 and STTN :) ). So now I'm pretty sure that the need for 3-2 transition (despite the fact that he's only 21 wks) was the reason for the NW in our case.
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Hello! I am looking for some guidance/advice regarding my LO 3:2 transition. It has been four weeks since he started refusing the CN. The issue is that either I am having hard time extending his awake time to 3 hr or extending the two naps that he currently has. The reason that I am saying either or is that one day he will have longer activity time (without pushing him) but will cut his naps short and the next day I will have problem keeping him up longer than 2 hr 30 min,he will take longer morning nap but cut short his afternoon nap. Both ways we are ending up with way to long AT before BT and I have to put him to bed early but he is overtired, cranky and drifts off to during BF. I am not having issues with putting him down for naps or for BT (at BT he may cry a little bit but goes back to sleep without issues). It is just feel like we are stuck in this transition and I do not know how to complete it. He used to sleep little over 11 hr at night but now it feels like instead of extending his naps he actually extended his nigh sleep (sometimes he even sleeps until 8 ). Are we going in right direction and it will just take time before he adjusts?
Here is our usual routine:
WU & E: 7:30 (he used to wake up at 7 but I think because it is still dark in the morning it kind of helped pushed it later)
A:
S: 10:00
E: 11:15-11:30
A:
S: 14:00
E: 14:45 -15:00
A: (including bath and feeding)
S 6:45
Ps. He is not crawling yet but he is very eager to move around (he has a sit, stride and ride toy that he somehow mastered to scoot and ride). I do have a feeling that if he knew how to crawl we would just naturally and without hustle extend A time and get better naps. I just do not see it coming any time soon ::)
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Hi there Olga_W :)
You haven't mentioned how old he is now - but I looked at your previous thread and I'm guessing he is almost 9 months old now, is that right?
I think if your LO is almost 9 months he is trying to regulate his own sleep by doing the mixture of shorter and longer naps. Most LOs this age will have been on 2 naps for a while and can need one of the naps to be shorter and one longer because the A times are so long that it is no longer possible to fit in two long naps (guidance A time for 9 months is around 3hr 30 but some do much longer).
I think it's great he can do the longer night, that must be nice for you.
If it was me I'd look at which nap is usually the most consistently long one - either morning or afternoon - and plan a regular routine around that making that nap long and the other a CN (45 min). The A time before the CN can be shorter if he agrees to go down for it but I probably wouldn't make it any less than 2hr 30. The A time before the long nap will likely need to be longer.
Do you have a feel for which nap you think would be most suitable as the longer nap and which the shorter? Once you have decided I might be able to suggest a routine you could try.
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Hello creations
Yes, that is correct. I forgot to mention that he is 8.5 months. I can not complain about his nigh sleep :) . He goes to bed easily and sleeps through without a problem. I just want him to enjoy the evening more instead of being OT. He is very cranky when we get ready for bath and when I take him to his room for feeding. I also miss reading him a book after last feeding (since he drifts off I just do not want to keep him up any longer and put him to bed right away).
I think the longer nap would be the morning one. If he has at least 1h 15 min nap in the morning the rest of the day seems to go more smoothly. However, in the morning I am having harder time keeping his A time longer, especially if he wakes up bit earlier that usual. I would say the maximum that he can stay up in the morning would be 3 hr (usually is less than that). So it is like he wants shorter A time in the morning and longer nap and longer A time in the afternoon but shorter nap. Today he was up for 3 hr without an issue but he just took 45 min nap in the morning and woke up happy. He will more likely have short nap in the afternoon as well so again he will be OT in the evening. Does that make any sens ???
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Yes it makes sense.
I'm afraid this is one of the times when listening to what LO wants, or following sleepy signs, isn't all that helpful. Instead you can really help him to become better rested with a more predictable routine where he consistently gets a long first nap and a short second nap. Although you might feel a bit mean making him stay awake longer than 3hrs for his first A time I think if you give it a go you will be surprised and ultimately the reason for keeping him up is not meanness but to help him be better rested.
I suggest you increase the first A time to 3hr 15 mins for 2-3 days and then increase again to 3hr 30 mins and hold it there for a week to see how he settles into it.
Here's how your routine might look when you increase to 3hr 30 first A time:
WU 7.30
A 3hr 30
S 11.00 - 12.30
A 3hr
S 3.30 - 4.15
A 2hr 30
BT 6.45
This is only a suggested routine to try. I've based it on what you've said, that he wants a bit longer A in the afternoon, but is grouchy before BT so have given those A times 3hr before the CN and 2.5hr before BT. He's likely to feel better with at least one good nap, this may have the effect of reducing that long night sleep so be aware of that, but shifting some of that sleep to the day time could be what he needs to be more rested as 2 45 min naps are not really suitable.
Maybe you can do book reading at another time of day? My DS always loved books and we read piles of them but never at BT, he was just too focused on getting to sleep to want or need a BT book. Morning books right after milk might be an alternative for the routine? My DS also liked being read a story whilst he was in the bath.
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Thank you, I will definitely try it. I do not mind keeping him up longer if in the long run it will improve his day overall.
Yes, I can probably read it to him in the morning. It will also help keep him up but not overly stimulated. I will probably fit it in after feeding or maybe before that first nap. I can also fit in a walk if needed. I always took him out in the late afternoon. It helped me keep him occupied until his BT. He likes it and is always calm while on the walk so if needed we can do it in the morning as well.
Thank you again for your suggestions. I will report back in a week or so to share our progress :)
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Hello, so I want to give an update on our progress. Extending morning activity time worked like a charm. At the beginning he required extra attention and some work to keep him occupied but he got used to it within few days. I run into extra challenge with time change ::) . I took almost a whole week for him to adjust but once he did we were much better. So in order to keep him up in the morning we started reading books before the nap and before that we also fit in a snack time which I think works perfect because gives him chance to practice self feeding and with 5 hr time between meals it also keeps him full. He still gets cranky before bed and gets tantrums during the day; however, I think I would associate it to his mental development.
Thank you for the help! I am glad that this forum exists and you can get such a great support :)
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Sounds like you've done really well :)
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Yes, we are much better now. He takes consistent longer morning naps (usually between 1 hr -1.5 hr) and shorter afternoon nap. Our day is more predictable and he does not get as overtired as he used to. Thank you again for your advice!
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Sorry I maybe am responding in the wrong place, struggling with this matter myself.
If I stretch LO 10-15 min watch time, how long to let him sleep per nap and how does the Eat fall in properly?
7:00 E
A:
10;00 S
E? Ext.
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I've replied to your thread - perhaps keep all the advice there so its in one place, Webgrasp :)
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Is this thread able to be revived?
I think my A times are too short but nap lengths of 20/35 minutes indicates OT. I’m experimenting withb2.25/2.5 A times with my almost 7 month old. Nights seem to also be affected 😪