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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: morvayc on April 21, 2015, 23:39:42 pm
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Really really really need advice from other mothers of LSN babies, as I will NEVER get a 12hr night, and LO NEVER tacks on!!
LO is a few days shy of 15 months, and is currently doing a combo of 1 and 2 nap days. The major problem lies in the fact that regardless of which I do, I am ALWAYS getting EWs. I haven't had a WU of 6am in months....and even then, they were rare. I'm pretty convinced at this point, that at most, I am going to get a 10.5hr night. If this is the case, my BT needs to be shifted to 8pm at least, but how do you do this when LO is currently waking at about 5am every day?
A typical 2 nap day:
WU-5/530
A-4hrs
S-15min
A-3hrs
S-1.5hrs
A-4.5/5hrs
S-645 ish
As you can see, a two nap day winds up being very long....sometimes over 14hrs, sometimes with 12 hrs total A. I have to think that this must be contributing to OT, but I really don't know. My LO is always happy and never looks tired.....basically I'm just guessing at the A times.
A typical 1 nap day:
WU-530
A-5.5hrs
S-2hrs-2hrs10min
A-5-6hrs
S-630-700
With doing 1nap days, I thought her nights would lengthen, but they really haven't....just eliminated the NWs that I seem to get with 2 nap days. I'm wondering if I should just do away with 2 naps days, and stretch her morning out even more. Like I said, my LO never looks tired, I'm just following what other mothers seem to do, which is 5-5.5hrs A before first nap. Is there anyone out there who had A times of 6hrs when first transitioning, or whose LO is 15 months????
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Hi there...I have a lsn lo who is 20 months old but we have been on one nap for over a year now! I would say if your lo is still having ew it is probably time to phase out the two nap days really. I really think the nights wont have a chance to lengthen unless you give it a good go on one nap. Tbh I am not sure what our A times were at 15 months but it seems.like we have had a 12:30/1 pm nap for ages and that is with a 6:30/7 am wake up. Bedtime has always been 8 pm for DD3 since she was a newborn.
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Hi Hon and welcome again! I'm so sorry that you are still having EWU:(.
And yes, some mothers can do even 8h of A first thing in the morning so with 6 WU nap at 2pm but still most of them do that because of EWU and short nap. As you want to push WU time I would say you need to push BT. I would do that in small 15min increments every 2 days let say. And yes, definitely i would stick to one nap day. What is the reason you are doing two naps?
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I agree with Heidi. We were on one nap at 10 months and my lo is also prone to 10.5hr nights. You might find she has to be on one nap days for quite a while before nights lengthen.
From what I remember, at 15 months we were doing something like this :
WU: 5.30 - 6.15
Nap: 12.30 - 1.30 or 2ish
BT : 7
Our nights are rarely over 11hrs too. In fact, we had a nnd yesterday and my lo has just woken from a 11.5hr night and that's pretty much a record here! I go on 13-13.5 hr days instead of the standard 12hr days - even after we dropped to one nap I tried to work on as close to a 13hr day as I could. A SEBT never worked for us cos my LO never tacked on reliably beyond 11hrs either.
Oops, posted with Martii. We had a phase of pushing BT back too, and that helped my sanity for a while when we were getting lots of EWs. But you may find a later nap and still a long A to bed helps lengthen nights slightly too.
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Thanks, ladies!
So what I'm gathering is that I should just stick to 1 nap, no matter what? I've never stretched her over 5.5hrs pre-nap, but I will go with 6hrs A today, for an 1130 nap. On 1 nap days, she has generally been giving me about 2 hrs, but she always seems to wake a few times. I never need to go in and resettle, but it always makes me second guess myself, thinking that she is OT....since this seems to be a new thing since starting 1 nap. If she does a 2 hr nap until 130, what BT should I do? Martii, the reason for the 2 naps was because of the EWs. I didn't think I should stretch her so far in the morning when just starting on 1 nap.....especially if OT was the actual reason for the EWs
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DD2 is lsn and was on one nap well before 15mo as well. I think around 15months her schedule was something like LL&Js LOs (but shifted by an hour to give her 8pm bedtime). I know for sure by 17mo I was having to cut the nap to 1hr to get 11-12hrs night sleep! So definitely ditch the second nap :)
I dont think it is absolutely necessary to have longer than 5.5hrs A before nap, as long as you are getting an ok nap (for a lsn LO I wouldnt expect more than 1.5hrs nap tbh :-\) After a decent nap I would do 6hrs A before bed with dd2 usually, if she was fighting bed or waking through the night then I knew I had to cut her nap shorter. If she didnt have a decent nap then I might do 5.5hrs A before bed, but would really try to get her to her normal bedtime. Other than that I think its a matter of shifting bedtime by 15min every few days until you have a later bedtime and later wakeup
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No advice, but I wanted to let you know that we too had 10.5hr max nights for DS, and found that they persisted until we went to one nap consistently. I (with the help of the ladies on the board) made the decision one day, we never went back, and after about a month, things got better. I think his body just realized that there wouldn't be random 2 nap days to catch up. It wasn't a pleasant transition, and I questioned the decision many times over as I watched him get pretty OT, but somehow, he began to tack on at night, and began sleeping more cumulative hours on 1 nap, than he did on 2 naps. Good luck! I hope your LO gives you some later WU's!
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Thank you soooo much for the support, ladies! She gave me a 2.5hr nap today, although I had to resettle at the 30min mark, and then I heard her wake a few more times. I'm going for a 6hr A to BT, which would put us at 715pm. I'll let you know how the night goes!
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Hi. Cant stay long but just wanted to say I've been experiencing the same as you - DS is 15 months and went to one nap at 12 months. He was EWing at around 5.15 - 5.45 for ages. I tried everything and what *seems* to have worked is cutting his nap to 1hr30. He now usually wakes after 6am with a BT of around 18.45. His A time before the nap is around 6 - 6.5 hrs.
Have a look at this thread that i started when he was 12 months - some stuff in there that might not be relevant bit some that ishttp://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=274133.msg3012046#msg3012046
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Mackjack, since your LO is around the same age as mine, are you surprised that he/she is doing 6-6.5hrs A time? I swear that I've read about a million posts on here, and I haven't found a single one that had A times as high, especially when first transitioning to 1 nap. This is why I'm ALWAYS second guessing myself, and telling myself that my LO MUST be tired, because she's been up for 5 hrs. Do you just know the correct A times based on the length of your nap, or the quality of night's sleep, or WU time????? It's all really really confusing to me, and I never know if EWs are due to OT or UT, or just having a crazy baby!
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My dd1 was also lsn and on one nap at 8.5mo! She was doing 6hrs A after her nap when she first transitioned...when you have a lsn baby all bets are off ;)
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So, yesterday went something like this:
WU-530
A-5hrs15min
S-2hrs30min (had to settle at 30min, and then woke a few other times, so the nap itself wasn't 2hrs30min)
A-5hrs55min
S-710
3 NWs between 1030 and 130, then awake at 430, 440, and 455. I then gave a little milk and meds(just in case).
S-6-640
So, basically a little over 10hrs night sleep. Where are these 12 and 13 hr nights that these other mothers get when first transitioning? God, I hate this!
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Where are these 12 and 13 hr nights that these other mothers get when first transitioning?
Well, you *might* get longer nights as you stick with the one nap. But, and I hate to be the one to say it, you may have missed the window to get long nights...it is very possible with a lsn LO that with a 2.5hr nap, a 10hr night is going to be all you get :-\ What was her mood like before bed? Was she happy when she woke in the morning?
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Tinkerbell,
Honest to God, I would sometimes rather have a moodier child, that way I would have some sense of how she may be feeling. She is just happy happy happy all of the time, and shows zero tired signs (like last night). When she woke this morning, she cried initially, but then it turned to just babbling. After giving milk and meds, I stayed in the room and she was restless for an hour, but not crying, until she fell back asleep for 40minutes. I never know when to put her down after mornings like this, nor do I know how to set BT. To I go by when she initially woke, or when she finally woke? As for the 2.5hr nap, she never does this. With the combination of having to settle after 30 minutes, and the few other wake ups, she probably only slept about 2hrs.
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Honey maybe the problem of her NWs lies in the fact the she is used to a thought that you will be next to her. How you generally address those NWs? 15mo can be going through ww, teething and will always be waking at night - the case is how to help them to go back to sleep without your assistance.
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Martii, for the 3 NWs in the night, I didn't go to her at all.....they were just brief, and she put herself back to sleep.
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If she settles on her own, I wouldnt even consider it a nw. I only count it as a nw if I have to go in with dd. Kids are up so much through the night, if they don't need you then its probably just a random wakeup for who knows whatever reason.
I would probably stick with the a times you have for 1 week, let her nap as long as she wants. Then after 1 week reasses and see if you need to shorten nap or push bedtime later or whatever. You might find if the nights get better from going to one nap, and the nap may start to shorten naturally.
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Agree with Tink:) no intervention means no NW:))).
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If she short naps, which for her is either 30 minutes or 1hr10-15min, do you still suggest not doing a second nap?
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Hi. Yes I was surprised that he is doing such a long A time so quickly. But yes its the quality of the sleep and morning wu time that tells me it works. Our main problem lately was EW and it took me a long time to be brave enough to try a 1.5hr nap - but that is what helped. Like you I was totally lost and couldn't work out whether his behaviour ( some NWs, grumpy EWS ) was OT, UT or what. And no I couldn't find anyone on here with a baby like mine either! !
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LOL...thank you, Mackjack! If you wouldn't mind, could you post what your day looks like? The thought of capping her nap the first week she is on 1, frankly scares me to death. I'm also a little skeptical because when she does short nap, she never tacks on....but what do I know?
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Honey I wouldn't cap the nap in the first week of being on 1 nap. I would stick to whatever she needs and cope with 10h night. Some OT will come because of being on 1 nap, it's always like that honey. So firstly let her settle in a new routine for 1-2 weeks. Mayb she will shorten the nap by herself. If not, start capping.
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Hi. Sure - it's usually something like this:
WU 6 - 6.20 am
S 12.30ish til 14.00ish (if you read the thread I sent you, you'll see its been a bit later recently due to a new-found fascination with removing his sleeping bag and playing with it for up to 45 mins - but for your purposes, I'd disregard that)
BT asleep approx 18.45 - sometimes a little later, sometimes a little earlier
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.. and you prob think yuk, 6am is still an EW but my rule is anytime from 6am on is acceptable and more importantly he wakes happy and is content to sit in his cot and wait for me. When he was waking at 5.15/45 he was crying, grumpy and impatient.
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Thanks, Mackjack. I haven't had a WU of 6am in months, and frankly, 6am has always been the goal. I didn't think I was asking for much, but it turns out that my LO has different ideas :) Do you do set nap and BT regardless? So your LO is doing a much shorter A time after nap, eh? Out of curiousity, how long does it take your LO to settle before nap? Today for example, my LO was fussing for 30 minutes in the crib before she fell asleep, so I assumed I'd get a short UT 1hr15min nap, or a 30minute OT nap, but she slept just shy of 2hrs......so I haven't a clue. Did you gradually work up to 6-6.5hrs A time before nap, or go drastically to that time just to see if it worked? Like I said before, my LO gives no tired signs, so I'm just kind of going middle of the road at around 5hrs A time, give or take.
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Think our LOs are kindred spirits ☺
I do set nap and BT. Had to because at about 12 months it was clear that 2 naps weren't working. Second nap was getting so late, I could only let him have 15mins. It was getting ridiculous to manage his routine. So i just jumped straight to it - think I started with nap at 12 and BT at 7 but BT is a bit earlier now. I used to let him nap as long as he liked but that only worked for a short while before I realised I had to cap it. My first LO, DD, used to do 3 hr naps and 11/12 hr nights at this age so i couldnt believe DS could get by on such a short nap.Honestly, his sleep needs change so fast, I fully expect to have to cap the nap even more soon.
Yes, the general advice is not to jump to such high A times but with the help of this forum I realised that my LO didn't follow the usual "rules" so to speak.
As i mentioned he does sometimes take a long time to settle which I always assumed was UT but it doesn't really seem to have a bearing on the quality of his nap.
I know it's long but if you can read my thread I sent you ( if you haven't already) it starts when he was about 12 months and I was struggling with the 2-1 but it continues up til now where I've been capping his nap.
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So, we had a fairly good night.....although short. Yesterday went something like this:
WU-6:40 (but that was after an initial wu of 430, 440, 455, then sleep from 6-640)
A-4hrs55min (but is it more like 5hrs55min because of the hour she was awake???)
S-11:35-1:25 (1hr50min)
A-5hr25min
S-6:55-5:20 (STTN!....but only a 10hr25min night)
It's great that she had no NWs, or restlessness starting at around 4am, which we usually have, but I still pray fro a 6am wake up! I don't know how to get there when she wakes so darn early. If capping the nap is the only way I'll get an 11 hr night, I don't know how to do that, as I need her to take at least a 2 hr nap, just to get to a still EBT, without a ridiculously long A to bed.
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The other option is pushing nap later. Just throw out A times and set nap time no earlier than say 11:45 or 12. A lot of kids don't really need you to go by A time once they get older, and will benefit better from a set nap time :)
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That was my thought as well, just scared as that would put her at about 6hrs A time when I've been getting good naps at 5hrs A, give or take. I'll give it a go today because she had a decent night. Wish us luck!
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Ok ladies, I'm back and at a total loss. Things have not improved, rather they have gotten worse. For the past 1-2 weeks, I have been getting 9-10 hr nights max! That puts wake up anytime between 4 and 5am :-\ Naps have been anywhere from 1hr15min-2hrs. I feel like the day is shot from the minute we wake, as I am already at a 14hr day with a 6pm BT....which I never do btw, as baby will just wake at 330 (which she did do one day last week). The earliest I will go is 630pm. I try my very best to not put down for nap before 11am, so generally it's around 11am. I realize that this is early, but given that we've already been up since 4 or 5, I can't really stretch that too much more. A 2 hr nap has us waking at 1pm, so even a 6hr A to BT still only puts us at 7pm BT, which won't do us any good in pushing WU a tad later. I'm totally stuck. I have been advised to totally ditch a second nap, but I just don't know how to get out of this routine. LO has always been LSN, but she seemed to switch overnight from needing a 10-10.5 hr night, to a 9-10hr night. LO is 16 months btw. Do I need to stretch all of her As, or cut her nap, or both????? Please please any advice from BTDTmoms would be appreciated! I'll add that when she wakes at this time, I generally ignore, as me going in signals to her that it's time to party. I have tried a bottle at this time, and a lullaby seahorse which lights up and plays music for a bout 5 minutes before turning off. This has provided minimal success.
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So is she happy and ready to start the day at 4/5 am? What time do you actually get her up? Personally I would try one day to push her nap to noon, and do whatever it took to get a decent nap and therefore a later bedtime to try and push the morning out.
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Unfortunately, she's very happy to start her day at that time...sigh...Should I push her to noon but keep the same BT for a little while? I feel like 7+ hrs A time in the morning might just do her in.
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Is she having nw's or just the crazy ew? I tend to favour big moves vs small steps with routines so I am the oddball who would do a massive A time, push the nap (possibly cap it - we were capping by that age) and shift bedtime later. Now if she is one of those kids who does ok on a shorter night with a longer nap, what sort of a day would work for you guys? Or would you rather aim for a longer night by trying to cap the nap? Might be time to stop thinking in terms of A time and more towards set times that fit yours and your lo's needs.
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Have no time right now to comment properly, but did I get right that you are still doing 2naps some days for a 16mo toddler who has low sleep requirements...? Could you please post your day on 2 naps?
Totally agree hon that going by A times this age is not useful, go by set times. And really some will have a routin of 8h of A in the morning to prevent EWU.
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Thanks ladies! To answer your questions, no, we are doing 1nap 99% of the time, and "if" she has a second nap, we only allow 10 minutes. This only happened once last week, because she was up for the day at 330am. She did have a NW last night of about 15 minutes 4hrs into sleep, but I didn't intervene. She then became restless after 3am and was up for the day at 4am! I left her until 530. Again, her mood is always happy! This massive change in her sleep requirements seems to have come out of nowhere. Like I said, she's always been LSN, but to shave 1-1.5hrs overnight, has me completely confused. I love this forum, but become very discouraged when I can't locate a single LO with a schedule like mine, and it often leaves me thinking that it must be something I am not doing right. I am definitely for extending the night, as opposed to the nap if need be. She was up at 4 am today. Do I still shoot for a 12pm nap and a pushed out BT?
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For how long are you doing only 1 nap?
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It seems like the process has been going on for the last 6 months, but totally one nap for about 1 month now. The nap lasts anywhere from 1hr15min-2hrs....closer to 2hrs most days.
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If she is LSN then I would think a 2 hour nap might be too much, especially if she is happily pulling 10 hour nights now. But to get out of it you will have some not so nice days of pushing the nap, capping it and pushing bedtime out. What bedtime and wake up would you aim for? Is 11 hours of night sleep a good goal?
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11hrs of night sleep would be a dream! I haven't had it consistently since she was about 6 months old, and certainly not recently, but it has always been the goal. I always said that anything after 6am is fine with me. I gave up on a 7am wake up long ago ;) Are you suggesting pushing nap and BT, as well as capping all at once?
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Frankly speaking I wouldn't cap the nap yet but push the routine. So I would put for a nap at 1pm - and definitely I wouldn't do it in small increments... I would push to 1pm and 8pm BT at once as what can happen... She is going to be OT, but... Can she do anything worse than waking 3:30/4:00 am:)?
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I for sure would do as Marta suggests first - but I think that fairly soon the nap will need to be capped if you want an 11 hour night (or even a consistent 10.5). We have always done an 8 pm bedtime for DD3 so I am used to it but if you want to do something like 7:30pm then eventually the nap will need a chop to keep the wake up after 6 am.
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I just couldn't do a 1pm nap today after a 4am WU. We made it to 1130, which is an improvement......then had a 35min OT nap. I was able to resettle and she is still sleeping 45 minutes later. I will wake her at 130 and then shoot for a 730 BT to start. Fingers crossed ladies!
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11:30 od a great start. Try to push it łatwe next days or at least keep the same timing. Definitely go for 7:30 BT. I know it will be a very long day and she will be OT, and you should expect that - but remember than when you crack the OT and she will catch up finally - she should be on a better schedule than now.
Once again FX!
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So, last night went something like this....
S-7:30
NW-8:15 (a few cry outs, but ss)
NW-1:30 (about 15 minutes of on and off crying....ss)
NW-3:45-4:15
S-4:15-4:45 (up for the day, but didn't get her until 5:30)
night sleep=8hrs45min, total sleep in 24hrs=10hrs45min
Was planning on keeping the 1130 nap, but she was actually eating her lunch with her eyes closed at 1030. THIS NEVER HAPPENS! I took the hint and put her to bed. What should I do now???? My gut is telling me to let her sleep as long as she wants and keep with the later bedtime, but my gut is what landed me here, so I really don't know. Of course all of this happens on a day that I have a big interview!
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Push the nap Hon and push the BT. She is going to OT but it's just a few days. Think of it like about changing a time zone. If you travel to a different time zone the best advice is just go straight to a new routine and LO adjust after couple of days.
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Ok ladies, so LO is now 16.5 months, and has been doing 9-9.5hr nights for a few weeks now. We've managed to push BT to about 730pm....this is getting us to a 430am WU with no resettling. She is taking about a 2hr nap and we do our best to make it to 12pm. Should I keep pushing BT later, or cap the nap but keep the same BT? I'm scared to do anything really, as this seems to have come out of the blue. Might she be starting the 18 month sleep regression early?
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I'm guessing that she's using her nap to catch up instead of night sleep, and would cap the nap. At 16.5 months my (very) lsn boy was only doing 45 minute naps, and my slightly lsn girl was only doing about 1hr 20 I think, and dropped to 45 minutes by 19/20 months. If she's doing around 11.5hrs in 24 then if you want 10.5 or 11 at night then she probably needs less in the day.... Maybe try capping to 1.5hrs initially and see how she goes from there? Marta / Heidi - what do you reckon?
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Frankly speaking I am very hesitant with nap capping in general especially that she was going to sleep much earlier not long ago and was very tired according to what morvayc said so instead of that I would push the nap further but keep BT at 7:30. I wouldn't cap the nap shorter than 2h until you have a BT resistance and try to push the nap even to 1/1:30. I would say that firstly I would consider EWU are rather OT and than when you eliminate OT as a reason I would go for nap capping.
My that's my point of view. I would bet my son was LSN but he is rather average when I think of him right now.
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With 4:30 am wake ups I would cap the nap...even to 1.5 hours to start. DD3 goes more for the ew when ut than bedtime resistance so could be similar happening here. We have had bedtime resistance maybe 3 times total and that has led to having a few nnd's to get nights back to 11/11.5 hours.
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DD3 goes more for the ew when ut than bedtime resistance so could be similar happening here. We have had bedtime resistance maybe 3 times total and that has led to having a few nnd's to get nights back to 11/11.5 hours.
Yes, we have exactly the same - always settles quickly at BT and EWs if UT. If jack takes more than 5 minutes to go to sleep he's in need of a major routine change, and we've only had BT resistance once after nursery let him nap 2 hours later than usual. Just another example of how it's all trial and error really as no two LOs are the same :)
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Oh boy! So many options, what's a mother to do? Lovelylilyandjack, were your LOs waking themselves at 45min and 1hr20, or were you waking them? I think my LO would gladly have a 3hr nap on some days, if I let her....and I almost think that she needs it after stretching her sooooo much in the morning. So if I capped the nap and made BT 8pm, we are looking at approx
8hrs A pre nap and 6hrs A post nap. Doesn't this seem crazy, or is this what your LOs were doing too? It's so confusing, because I think I'm getting the right A to bed, because I get little resistance most of the time, but maybe I'm wrong about that too.
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Honey pushing nap or BT and capping the nap are because you want her to sleep in the morning. So counting 8h A is only a temporary thing. We hope for 11-11.5h and 1.5h nap so it's really not so much A overall (11-11.5h if she sleeps till 7 from 8am.
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I agree, you won't be looking at 8hrs A if she sleeps more at night, which is obviously the aim :) Jack was doing something like this at 16/17 months from what I remember :
WU: 6 - 6.30ish
Nap : 45 - 60 minuted uncapped at around 12.45 (though I found an old post that said he only slept this length uncapped after I capped for a few days and he started sleeping longer at night. After that he stopped napping for so long in the day).
BT : 6.45 / 7ish.
I can't remember if I was capping my daughters nap at this age but we started getting EW from about 17 / 18 months which only stopped when I started capping her nap eventually at almost 20 months. Then she moved to a similar routine to the one above which jack was on at 17 months.