BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: gejun on April 24, 2015, 15:42:15 pm
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my son is 8 months old, before he is 5.5 months ago, he is not a indepent sleeper, all his naps in day is cat nap, usually three cat naps, but he is great at night (around 12 hours)with only one bottle of formula, not dream feed, just up to when he wake.
when he was 5.5 month, we have to hold him in arms for the first nap , if put him down, he will wake quick, so I did a sleep training with CIO, and he became a independent sleeper one week later, at that time we haven't fixed routine, just put him down according his active time and signs. his nap became longer quickly, at least one is longer than 1h, sometimes more, three nap always, total 2.5 hours or more,but he became EW quickly, at 4:40~5:30, sometims he could fall in sleep again, sometimes not, now he became NW too.
day1:wu: 6:10 (5:30 wake and sleep again )
s:9:04~9:40
s:12:44~13:15(it seems to be disturb by noisy)
BT:18:00, and fall sleep 18:10(usuallly 19:00,because he fight the third nap today, so tired, he cried at 20:00, obviously OT
day 2 : wu:6:00 , no NW all night
s:8:58~9.18(I wake him because I try to another routine)
s:11.25~13:10
BT:18:45
day3:wu 6:15(with NW on 2:000:3:00:4:00)
s:9:27~9:51,(i put him down at 8:50,but he played)
s:12:10~14:10(wake him up)
BT:18:55
DAY4：WU 6：00(NO NW)
Sorry I lost record for day4 and day 5
day 6 wu 6:45(NW ON 11:00, 3；00， 5;00)
s:9:20~9:39
s:12.17~13:45
s:16:49~17:05
day 7 wu:6:00(no NW)
if i didn't wake hime on some days, his first nap and second nap always 2hrs totally, for example, if first nap 1hr15, second will be 45min, if first cap to 30min, second will be 1hr 25, and he will fight the third nap before 17:00, then he will be tired around 18:00.
I just found in a 12 hours day, like day6 , if nap total 2hrs, no NW at night, night will be 11 hrs, but if I think If i repeat it, the wake up time will be ealier and ealier because the night is 11 hrs , not 12 hrs, if leave 1 hr for day, he will be OT at day, it seems like his total sleep is 13hrs or little more, same situation with 4~5 month, all naps is 30min, 12 hrs night or more.
I am confused what routine will be right if he is really a LSN.
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Hi there and welcome to BW forums :)
Just stopped by the let you know your question has not been missed and there will be some support for you soon.
Hang in there.
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So, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly... you're waking him after 20min in the morning? He seems to need a total of 13hr sleep in 24?
I think at his age, I wouldn't be offering 3 naps... rather I would try extending the morning A time in order to even out the day. Are you wanting to have a short am nap? If so, I think cutting it to 20min is likely a bit too short, even for a LSN kid.
What if you tried something like this...
WU 6am
Nap 1 9:30-10am
Nap 2 1-3pm
BT 7pm
That gives a total of 13.5hr, so it may be a little off, but still seems to fit with what he's doing in some of your EASYs. What do you think?
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Hi Ladies - some support here as I was pming with gejun before (and I also was doing this routine with 20min first nap).
The idea, Katie, is that for LSN kids you can either push the morning nap as much as you can or you have to cap it and make really short but than allow sleeping at 12/12:30 for as much as they need, so:
- max 20min in the morning
- up to 2.5 even fronm 12 til 2-2:30pm
- max 20min in the afternoon
Afternoon nap being first to drop and it probably will happen soon as LO is already 8mo and in that routine it happens around 9mo for LSNs.
Idea behind the routine is easy, you place the longest nap ideally in the middle of the day so it's not stealing from night sleep. But you have to be carefully with longer sleep in the morning and afternoon as those can steal from night sleep. What is great in that routine is that naps ar always at the same time, you don't move them back of forward - you just cap them and drop, but ie lunchtime nap is at 12 from 6mo on till 2-3yo:).
I am not sure this routine works for everybody and but if you would like to gor for it Gejun, I would stick to that routine for 1-2 weeks to assess results. Bear in mind that that routine WU can be anywhere between 6 and 7 but LO should be able to stay in a cot and self-play so it is very low key. Naps should be set at either 9 and 12 or 9:30 and 12:30.
HTH.
Oh! One more important thing Gejun. We do not support CIO here Honey as Tracy believed that this really breaks the trust between child and the caregiver. So please keep in mind that any sleep training we will recommend to you will be gentle and not CIO/CC. If you would like to read more about why CIO and CC is not recommended here i will try to post some links later!
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Oh, thanks Marta... don't listen to me then, I stand corrected! :-\
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Sweetie, who has 3 kiddos at home and who has one:D?
I think it's Gejun choice what to do it terms of routine. I mean - if you want, give a try this routine with 20min morning nap (where I gave you some advice) or maybe go for what's Katie is proposing as this is the most popular routine here (and succesful for many!).
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Sweetie, who has 3 kiddos at home and who has one:D?
Yes, but still struggling with my LSN kiddo! ;) ::)
Here to support you in my best capacity, Gejun! :-*
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Thanks for all of your reply. I try to keep the same time for morning nap, but sometimes he wake late because of NW and sometimes ealier,and take over 10 mins to settle. It's so difficult to fall sleep at same time, does he need more days to adapt the new routine?
I have a question about how to do new routine at first days, especially the time of put down, for example, if the first nap should be 9:30~10:00, but he take 10 mins to settle, should I wake him at 10:00? till he can settle quickly at 9:30? or wake him at 10:00?
if the last nap before BT is not long as expect, should I allow him a short nap or make the BT ealier?
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You should put him down at 9:20, hoping that he will settle at 9:30. If he settles at 9:25, wake at 9:55. So nap should be around 9:30 and not longer than 30min.
Remember that sleeping in is not the best option when trying to get back on track. It's worth waking him as sleeping in is once again stealing from his sleep needs in the time when he doesn't need it. So if he had some terrible NWs I would rather wake and let him sleep maybe slightly earlier for his noon nap or give him slightly longer on his morning nap.
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sorry my English is not good enough, so I use the routine by Katie 80 to state my question about how to do a routine correctly.
WU 6am
Nap 1 9:30-10am
Nap 2 1-3pm
BT 7pm
when do a routine above, if LO wake at 6:00, that's great, if not, wake him up, if he wake at 5:30, just leave him alone till 6:00?
then put him down at 9:30, and wake him at 10:00, regardless how long he slept. then put him down at 1:00, and wake him at 3:00, regardless how long he slept, if the nap is shorter than two hrs, maybe earlier BT , maybre 6:30~45？ to avoid overtired?
I think even if a routine is correct for LO, it's impossible change in one or two days before he do exactly with the routine, how do deal with the mess during the first days?
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So:
- WU around 6, wake if not up till 6:30, leave in cot till min 6am
- nap 1, put down 9:20, asleep 9:30 wake after 30min; if LO sleeps 9:25 also allow 30min and wake 9:55
- nap 2, put down 12:50, asleep 1pm, wake after 2h but not later than 3pm
- BT around 7pm; try 7pm if nap was at least 1.5h;
- if nap 2 shorter than 1.5 I would go either earlier BT or third nap; I would go for third nap as we never were successful with EBT but you may also go for 6pm BT after short nap 2
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when do you think is the WU for the 20mins for the 9:00 nap? 6:00maybe? if later than that is the reason to take more time to settle
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you mentioned "sleeping in is once again stealing from his sleep ", I have thought it's just the extension of the night sleep, but for NW, maybe wake around 4:00 and sleep quickly again, maybe later 5:30 and take more time to sleep, should 5:30 be WU?
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Sleeping in means Honey that if he normally sleeps till 6am but on one night he had 2h night waking around 3 till 5am and then he slept till 7am. So from 6 till 7am is sleeping in after not sleeping at night. This may reinforce problems with night sleep.
I didn't get your first question... The first nap is set it means it is always around 9 or always around 9:30 (depends to which you stick to). No matter what was the wake up. There always be some differences in terms of who long they settle but they shouldn't be big.
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Thank you so much, I think the sleep before 7 is the key point, I always allow him to sleep in, I will prevent the sleep in,hope sleep improved.
my first question is the expect WU for 9:00 and 9:30, I think why he need over 10mins to settle, maybe OT or UT, the moring activity time should be around 2.5~3hrs ,I just feel the moring activity time seems shorter than others, now maybe the sleep in result it too.
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The morning A is always shorter hon in this routine as it is followed by a short nap and he won't be able to regenerate after a full A.
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I cried just now, because LO bad sleep, I am so worry about him , he NW became longer , over 1.5hr, these two days he awake around 3:00~4:00 , i feel he wanto sleep again, but cann't. finally he got up 5:20~5:30, but maybe little sleep beween 4:00~5:00. so he is very tired around 8:00, and I don't know how to do, I want to pull him to first nap later ,but can't , if let him sleep , maybe a longer nap, maybe he will regard the day as night?
two days I want to pull moring A longer, but maybe the NW, he was overtired and just took two short nap whole day, then NW became longer. I think I changed a lot with him , so ....
I am very sorry to Lo, his mom is so failed
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Oh, so many (((hugs))). You have not failed him, please done think that. These babies are not easy to figure out and you're doing your best. Hang in there! :-*
Is he getting any teeth right now? Often times, long night wakings like that are considered discomfort. It's ok to do a couple longer catchup naps. But, if you're wanting to 'set' him on a routine, then you'll want to get back to that and hold to it for a good couple weeks in order for it to work.
How are things going now?
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Thanks for your concern. even if situation will not improved , I am so grateful to you and Martit, I feel not lonely about the sleep problem.
last night he wake at 12:00 and 3:00 but quickly fall sleep again, maybe not real wake. at 4:00, he is real awake, and rolled, it seem like he tried to sleep but something prevent him, no cry no happily play. at 5:20, he fall in sleep and wake finally at 6:50
I find he always feel tired after a 45min or more moring nap, if the moring nap is around 30min, he will feel tired 2~2.5.
when set a new routine, will be mess in first couple of weeks? or OT ？ because if WU at 6:00, but with NW, before 9:30, he will be OT, nap1 is eay to get because only 30mins, but if the nap2 he wake ealier, how to deal with it?
according to your experience, what will happened at the first couple of weeks?
before he is 6 month ago, we haven't any real routine, only bed time is around 19:19:30.
so I think I am not clear how to set a routine, how to do at fist couple of weeks, which result in the mess now.
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Hey there. I know you are already getting advice on the sleeping routine but I just wanted to stop by with a big (((hug))). You sound like you need one. Babies are so tiring and such hard work when the sleep is off track.
Hang in there, you will get through this.
Another ((hug))
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Today is not good too, after a NW From 4:20~5:00, he finally wake at 5:25, he is tired at 8:00, I cann't pull him to 9:00 for the nap, he will be too tired. shoud I pull him to 9:00？I don't know how to begin any routine now, wake so early, it's so hard. he is unhappy and yawns with any longer or short naps, I think he is obvious OT.
any advice?
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Well, are you sure he is LSN? You mentioned that he used to take a lot of 30min naps, which could indicate LSN or that he was just a developmentally short napper for awhile. You also mentioned that he's never really had a routine before 6mo. At 6mo, did he start taking longer naps? Has he ever had a consistent 2-nap routine?
Yes, there is likely a little bit of OT when starting a new, 'set' routine, but if it persists or keeps getting worse, it may not be the right routine for him. I'd follow his cues for a couple days and just let him nap and see what happens. If he's up at 5:30 and ready to sleep at 8:30, then put him down and let him sleep. Same for afternoon nap. Keep track of your EASYs and we'll take a look and see if we can figure out something that works for him. (((Hugs)))
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I agree with you and from today morning I just follow his cues to see what happens, let him sleep as he wanted. he maybe a LSN, since he borned, his sleep is not longer , always 30mins, at 5 month, when the moring nap , I rocked him to sleep, but once put him down , he awake suddenly at the monment he touch the bed, he was very tired at noon since he fight the morning nap,so only two catnap during 5~5.5month, but great night (even more than 12hrs)at that time with one bottle formula around 2~4am. at the same time ,he stop the formula during night and sleep though all night from 19:30 to 6:15~6.20 , I think he need more sleep in day,so I trained him to sleep himself, at the first day he sleep himself, his nap became longer, morning 1.5,and 2hr noon, but in later days, he became wake earlier 5:00~5:30, always sleep again finallly wake at 6:45~7:00, everyday was different, and day nap became 40~1.5hr, seldom 2 hrs.sometims wake from day nap and after several mins fall in sleep again ,but alway unhappy if the nap was unconsistant. I never get 12 hours night when his nap became longer.
I tried to consistant 2-nap routine in march for one week, but never get a 2hrs , so he always tired around 18：00~18:30， I expect BT 19:00.so I just pull him to 19:00 or earlier BT sometime, at that time, no NW, always wake at 6:20, it's regretful I lost the records. then i try to cut he moring nap to 30 min, but still cann't get longer 2nap , during this period, NW seldom, but recently, EW every night, the longest wake always was around 4:00 , last over 1hr.
I am not sure how many sleep he need because of the mess now, so I will take coulple of days to take records, let him sleep when he want and as long as he want.
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I just find some records when LO is 6 month, could you analyse for me? I just follow his cues or according the A times.
no wake him except some moring at 7:00.
2.28
Wu:6:50, with a awake at 5:30 the fall sleep again
S:8:57~10:17
S:12:43~14:00
S:16:50~17:35, I can’t remember exactly,he fight the nap
BT 19:40(fall in sleep)
3.01
Wu: 5:20(cried some times last night)
S:8:27~9:00
S:12.25~14:15
S:16:30~17:00
BT:19:30(fall in sleep)
3.02
WU:7:00 (I wake him, he must awake sometimes around 5 and fall sleep again)
S:9:00~10.20
S:12:56~14:35
S:17:02~17:40
BT: 19:30(not sure, must before 19:45)
3.03
Wu:6:00 (awake at 4:40,then light sleep
S:8:30~9:40
S:12.25~13.05
S:16:05~16:45
BT:19:10(fall in sleep)
3.04
Wu:7:00 wake at 5:00, then light sleep or awake, till 6:00 fall sleep again
S:9:15~9:55
S:12:42~14:05
S:17:05~17:45
BT:19:12(fall in sleep)
3.05
Wu: 6:00
S:8:50~9:35
S:12:25~13:05
S:16:05~16:50
BT:19:15
3.06
Wu:6:50(wake at 5:00 the fall in sleep at 6:00)
S:8:50~9:20
S:12:35~13:15
S:16:15~17:00
BT:19:15
3.07
WU 7:20(wake at 5:40 then sleep again at 6:40)
S:9:20~10:35
S:12:58~13:50
The other records lost
3:08
Wu: 6:40 (awake at 4:30 then fall sleep at 5:30)
S:8:55~9:50
S:12.23~13:50
Fight the CN around 17:00
BT: 18:50 (OT)
3.09
WU6:40 (awake at 5:00 then sleep at 5:20)
S:8:35~9:35
S:12:35~14:00
S:16:55~17:42
BT:19:13
3.10
WU:5:40
S:8:15~9:25
S:12:25~13:05
S:16:05~16:55
BT:19:28
3.11
WU:7:00(awake at 4:40, fall in sleep at 6:20 , wake him at 7:00)
S:9:13~10.00
S:12:36~14:53
BT: 19:03
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after post these records, I got some idea, I think at 6 month, LO need around 13h 15mins, I count the sleep in time on morning to day sleep.
It seems like that we fall in a bad cirle for sleep in on morning, and with a sleep in , I cann't get a ideal nap in daytime, maybe the sleep in like a first nap, and the last nap extend the day longth, so he was OT, and wake ealier and then sleep in.
I think maybe the sleep in result in different routine failed ,because when I think I set a morning nap, it's the second nap in fact.
when his nap became longer, he was UT, so he happy when got up ealier, but I set three nap to get to BT 19:00, so maybe the daytime too long for him,and he became OT, and maybe that's why he fight the last nap,we fall in a bad circle always.
now I hope I can get a consistant night, then maybe some LSN routine will work, with Nw now ,I cann't wake him at 4:00am, but after 5:00, it's sleep in time , it will effect follow naps dramatically.
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Hmm, I don't know that I'd count any sleep after 5am as sleeping in. It seems like he does best with a 6-6:30am wake-up. :-\ It looks like what might have happened after he started sleeping two good naps was that he started to get UT (the naps shortened and he had some happy NW/EW), but then ended up OT with the long days.
I do think a routine like Marta or I have suggested above will likely work for him, it's just a matter of getting there, which means setting it and sticking with it for a good couple weeks. And I don't know that you can wait until NWs are gone to do that, as the two are often connected. Is there any way you can help him back to sleep when he wakes early in order to get him to the wake-up you need? Then, it would be a bit easier to push him to the set times and hold there.
How have the last couple days gone, does he seem to have caught up? (((Hugs))), it's hard to always feel like you're chasing after a routine.
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I will try to help him back to sleep when he wakes early .
It seems like when I found someting, he changed quickly ,and I lost the point for the new routine.
I Know it is mess totally, he A in after morning nap became short, to 2hrs. If I successfully help him to back to sleep, but his second is not long enough, what should I do? A CN around 16:17:00
day 4.28
BT 19:00， fall sleep at 19:22
NW:12:00 sleep again quick
2:00 sleep again quick
4:00 awake, cann't sleep again, till 5:20
then awake 6:50
day4.29
wu 6:50（maybe Ｉshould wake him 6:00•6:30）
s:9:24~9:57 wake him, happy
s:12:40~13:10(wake and cry), OT?
s:16:10-16:30(he wake himself, cry)
BT:19:00
22:00 cry
day 4.30
wake 12:00 and 3:00 wake and fall sleep again quickly
4:20~5:00 wake
5:20 wake
s:8.14~9.28(wake himself, with yawns)
s:12:14~13:30(looks like tired when 11:30)
BT: 17:55, he fight a nap aound 16:00, so ,,,,maybe did a mistake.
20:20 cry , I calm him down, 21:00 sleep
4:00 wake, 5:00sleep,
5:45 wake
Day 5.1
S;7:52~8:20
S:10:55~12:03
S:15:30~16:30
BT:19:00
DAY 5.2
Wake 3:00,I am not sure how many sleep between3~4:00
Wake 6:15
Day 5.3
S:8:45~9:30
s12:00~13:00
s:16:30~17:00(I wake him for BT)
day 5.3
wake 2:00, from 2:00~6:10( I fell wake 40mins then sleep a while )but from 5:00,it seems no sleep
even if show tired cues, he smile to me, but put him down he sleep within several mins with little cry. Now his cues not obvious.
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I tried Martii routine for one week, only two nights are ok, but SOON seems worse, his noon nap became shorter and shorter.
And NW became long
Maybe because the sleep from 6:30~7:00, but some day, even if wake at 6:00. Still worse NW,and he unhappy when wake him up after 20mins
Even if the same day, different night.
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Also, for your routine, the moring A is 3.5 hours, it seems too long for Lo, is because a long night sleep, for Martii routine, after 20mins, I feel he tried before the noon nap
When you put down a baby, If he not tired, could him sleep too?just only more time to settle?
I found after a full nap , 40min, he can wake 3hr, but 3omin or less, maybe 2.5hr ,maybe because his night sleep not good?
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Hi there
Sorry to see you are still struggling.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about his sleep and awake times.
Is English a second language for you? It may be possible for us to get some translation on this thread to support you better. We do have a few volunteer translators in the community depending what language would be helpful. Do you have a preferred language?
Also if you feel this routine is not working for your LO it is fine to change. It looks like you tried for a week, it's up to you, you could continue with this approach, or you can change approach.
How about letting him sleep as long as he likes for the first nap for the next few days so he can catch up on lost sleep? If I am reading your message correctly he is sleeping less for nap 2 and also waking at night, so probably OT by this point.
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(((Hugs))), I'm sorry I'm having a hard time consistently getting on to help! :-[
I think you have a couple viable options...
1) How about letting him sleep as long as he likes for the first nap for the next few days so he can catch up on lost sleep?
I think I suggested this above. Have you ever tried to do just a standard routine with him? It looks to me from you EASYs above that his ideal A time is likely around 3-3.5hr. What about putting him down around then and letting him sleep and then doing the same for the second nap, waking him up to keep a 12-13hr day (whatever is your preference)?
Or...
2)I found after a full nap , 40min, he can wake 3hr, but 3omin or less, maybe 2.5hr ,maybe because his night sleep not good?
Then maybe we need to alter the original plan and do something like this...
WU 6am
Nap 1 9-9:40am
Nap 2 12:40-2:40pm
BT 6:30/7pm
What do you think?
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Yes, English is second Language, I prefer Chinese, so it’s difficult for find a translater maybe.
I found his total sleep is 13~13hr15min, I record several days for his sleep, now it is possible 13hrs. only three days without NW, one these three days, his day nap is around 2hrs, no matter how I tried, I cann’t get a 2hrs second nap, except he wake very early time, before 5:00, but which always Nw or EW on the following day, it seems like the long nap compensates the sleep at night.
If I allow him a longer morning nap, always a short second nap, then he will very tired , cann’t wait for the BT.
So, it looks like his total sleep is 13hr, if I expect 11hrs night, only 2hrs left for day, it’s too hard to arrange 2hrs for two naps, so I think standard routine maybe doesn’t work. I tried stand routine when he was 6 month, but failed.
I tried to 20mins nap morning, and 1h 30min noon nap(he wake naturaly), then a short nap 18mins around 16:45, I got a 6:00 naturally wake without NW, but I cann’t get a same night even the day nap same.
When he did three catnap for one day, each 30mins , I have great night, now his nap became longer, and imbalance appears.
I did the routine Martii suggested for one week, but improved little, his noon nap always broken, he always wake at 45min or 1h15min, then sleep again, just resettled himself. If I didn’t wake him, his noon nap will more than 2hr 10min, but broken. I don’t know why he awake, like a sleep in? to compensate his NW? if his total sleep is very low, then maybe only 1hr 30mins for noon nap is reasonable?
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He is happy and full of energy during whole day, he doesn’t cry during Nw, just chat and yawns, try to sleep but sometimes took long time. I needn’t resettle him.
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Hi there.
What did you think of Katie80s suggestions above? There were two options. Do you feel you would like to try one of those?
Meanwhile I am looking for a translator to help out. We did used to have a member of the community offer to help with chinese but that was a few years back so I am looking for current members who have time available. Hopefully we can find someone.
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Just popping in with hugs and support. My son was very similar to yours at 8 months. He IS low sleep needs, but I was still figuring it out at 8 months, for sure.
I'll let you look at Katie80's suggestions above so as not to confuse things by offering more advice. We were doing something very similar to the second option she suggested at 8 months if that helps. In fact, we had our first one nap day at that age, but jack really is very LSN, so I wouldn't suggest trying that right now! Anyway, just wanted to let you know I've totally been there, I know it's horrible, and I also know that it does get better (I promise!) X
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I think if I'm understanding correctly, you are trying the second routine I posted above, but aren't able to consistently get a 2hr second nap. Is that right? Can you post some of your EASYs for us to look at, so we can get a feel for what's happening in addition to your description?
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Hello. Hi Gejun, 你好。 如果你想打中文的話，我可以替你翻譯。
Katie, I think Gejun did mean that it was too hard to get 2 hours second nap.
Gejun, please note that these are sample routines, you don't have to follow it. It depends on you and your child. I personally think that the focus is better on the total awake time. I discovered that when DS was 3. What I would like to suggest is if you are getting 13 hours of sleep in one day, and only 11 at night, what you can do is to slowly shift the nap time by 10-15 mins to find the best time to extend the naps (day time sleep) to 30 mins more and hopefully that way the total awake time will also increase 30 mins more and you will fill that one hour gap. (I type this in English so that the others can read and comment.)
Gejun, 我想我看得懂你貼的，如果我理解錯了，請你告訴我。他們給你的時間表只可以作為參考。我的提議是午睡增長三十分。這樣醒的時間應該也延長一點。（我忘了问你看得懂繁体还是简体字？请你告诉我吧。）定时午睡应该是大一点的宝宝比较好。八个月可能还小吧。你是不是跟从A时间来决定什么时候午睡呢？
Hope I can help. Koe
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Wow, Koe... thanks so much for hopping on! We appreciate your willingness to help! :-* ;D
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Goodness me, Katie. I thought that's what we are all here for, helping each other! :-* :-*
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Yes, of course. Translation is just extra appreciated! :)
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有你在太好了，我看的懂繁体的，关于睡眠的问题我可能英文不是很好，
是的，我的问题是从来得不到两个小时的nap,即使有，中途总是会醒，哭两声或过几分钟又睡着了。
另外，
我目前的问题是我怀疑我在做一个routine时没有保持一致性。
所以我想先澄清一些概念如下：用他们的routine 做例子
WU 6am
Nap 1 9-9:40am
Nap 2 12:40-2:40pm
BT 6:30/7pm
1、 Wu 时间，6点的话，如果他早于6点醒，就让他自己在小床玩，如果6点还在睡（可能由于长时间的夜醒），就叫醒他。
2、 Nap1: 9点把他放到小床上，虽然他是个independent sleeper, 但是对于一个新的routine, 我想可能开始一周或更长，他需要时间才能入睡吧，也许5分钟，10分钟，我是9点放呢还是8点50放？如果他在9:10才睡着，我是9:40叫醒他呢还是9:30叫醒，如果是9:40，我时不时需要藏在房间里才能确定他睡着的时间。如果是9:30，我只需要在nap结束的时间进房间叫醒他就行了。
你们的宝宝是不是一开始适应一个routine时入睡也慢？后来可以一分钟内睡着吗？
否则你怎么确定他什么时间睡着和什么时间近房间叫醒？
3、 Nap2, 如果他再睡了一小时二十分钟后醒了很高兴，时不时就没有再睡着的可能性了，以后也不太可能睡到两个小时？如果中途醒了哭，时不时还有可能再继续睡，以后几天可能越睡越长？如果在开始的几天只睡了一个多小时，那他在18:00左右可能就困了，需要提前上床时间吗？或是安排一个catnap 在17:00左右，但是这很困难。
目前我正在减少上午的nap时间到20mins, 但是午睡时还是中途会醒，醒了能再睡回去，
我的宝宝的睡眠需求好像从小就少，现在估计也就１３个小时～１３个半之间吧。
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Koezmoe, 有你在太好了，我们能通电话吗或微信语音吗？
打字好慢，我急需帮助，已经快要精疲力尽了，沟通一些基本问题。
Thanks for everybody, especially to Katie80,thanks for your suggestion.
Now I need you clarify some basic concept when start a new routine, to check if I did something wrong, especially without consistence
I use option 2 you suggestion for example:
WU 6am
Nap 1 9-9:40am
Nap 2 12:40-2:40pm
BT 6:30/7pm
1、 WU:6;00 ，if he wake 5:40,just leave him in cot to play till 6:00, if he is still in sleep at 6:00（for prolonged NW）, wake him up. Right?
2/ Nap1: should I put him down at 9:00 everyday or 8:50, leave several mins for him to settle? If he take 10mins to settle, when should I wake him up? 9:50 after a 30 mins nap, or 9:40 when the schedule time closed? Is your Lo always fall in sleep very quickly? Should Lo settle quickly after the few days if the A is reasonable? How do you do it at the first few days, hiding in his room to see when he falling in sleep or just make a alarm clock to wake him?
3/ for nap 2, put down him at 12:40, but he slept only 1hr20mins, wake naturally and happy, is there possible he can sleep longer in future days? Since he was satisfied with the length of sleep.
If he wake and cried during the nap, but could resettled himself and need wake him up at 2:40, does it mean he maybe can sleep longer in future days?
If he satisfied with 1hr20mins, he will tired around 17:40 maybe, how to deal with it? If offer another CN, Obviously he will fight the BT, but if not, he will very tired around 18:00 maybe.
I used to be a similar routine with it, nap1 at 9:00, nap2 around 12:30, but if the nap1 is 45mins, the nap 2 always be 1hr15min, if cap it to 30mins, nap2 will be 1:25, total 2hrs for two nap.
I will post some records, maybe not useful because of inconsistence.
But maybe the WU is different everyday.
So I think maybe I need three naps before 9months since he is LSN, two naps maybe cann’t balance his sleep.
So recent ten days, my routine is 8:45 nap for 20mins, 12:00 nap aim for 2hr 10min, 20mins afternoon nap between 16:15~17:00,
But I cann’t get 2hrs nap, he always wake during nap, then after several mins, he slept again,
only one day I got 2hrs,and he tried around 18:30, then BT19:00 without NW, 6:00 naturally wake.
For this routine, I am not sure wu 6:00 or 6:30 too, the book state could be anytime between 6:00~6:30.
Following are some records for the routine similar with you suggested:(x)
3.20
Wake at 6:20(without NW)
Nap1Put down at 8:45
Nap from 8:58~9:43 wake him
Nap2:put down at 12:25
Nap from 12:30~13:54 wake with a cry
BT:19:00, Settle quickly for he really tired,
3.21
Wake at 6:00(without NW)
Nap 1 put down 8:45
Nap from 8:55~9.41 wake him
Nap 2
Put down 12:15
Nap from 122~13:50
I lost records for 3.22.
3.23
Wake him at 7:00, many NW at night
Nap1
Put down at 8:55
Nap from 9:14~9.57
Nap2 put down at 12:25
Nap from 12.25~13.20
I have to offer another nap
From 16:40~16:57
3.24
6:20 wake but quickly sleep again then wake him at 7:00(two NW)
Nap1:put down at 8:55. 9:15~9:45
Nap2: put down at 12:28
Nap from 12:31 to 13:06
Wake at 13:06 but fall sleep at 13:21,then wake at 14:11
BT:19:00
3.25:
WAKE naturally at 6:20, without NW
NAP1
Put down at 8:25
Nap from 8:32~9:18(wake him ,we have to out)
Nap 2
Put down at 12:20
Nap from 12:25~14:25
3.26
Wake Naturally at 5:30(two NW, 1:00, 4:00)
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我刚才发的生活记录，可能英语表达不准去，我的put down,就是把他放床上的时间，我每次放他睡的时间不是很严格，因为担心他需要几分钟才能在我希望的时间睡着。我在上午通常让他睡30~45分钟，但从未得到过连续两小时的午睡，偶尔有一次，我也不记得午睡中间有没有醒过了，当天晚上就夜醒频繁了。
当时我还不知道要固定起床时间，我以为他是个平均水平的孩子，所以以为可以睡到7点，后来发现他的总睡眠量低于平均水平，是不可能从晚上7点睡到早上7点的。我的电话是13501070204，北京时间19:15以后通常都可以联系，如果你方便的话。
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另外，Marti85给我的routine 建议目前我还在用，已经一个多星期了，进展不大，这个routine来自一本澳大利亚人的书，建议LSN上午和傍晚各20分钟,这样中午睡长一些，2小时吧，你可以看看前面她的留言。但这本书上关于wu的时间是6：00~6:30， 以保证可以在上午的时间moring nap, 我不理解是不是还是要固定在6点或是6点半还是只要在6点和6点半之间都可以，不用保持一致，还提到9个月的宝宝下午的20分钟视情况取消，我的宝宝现在8.5个月了，不知道这个该怎么处理，如果你没看到过这个书，可以联系Marti85再详细说明一下吗？因为这个routine我刚坚持了一周多，所以还是想再坚持一周看看情况再做改变。
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could Marti85 clarify the WU time for the LSN routine since I have did it over one week, I read the book but cann't get it about the wu time. and I want to do it one more week to assess it.
I just find it if wake naturally at 6:20, LO will refuse the afternnon 20mins nap in pram, but if wake at 6:00, he always take it.
and always his noon nap always broken nap, wake one or two times during the noon nap.
following is the routine
WU: 6:00 or 6:30? I think Lo total sleep is 13hr~13hr 20mins
nap1: 8:45, 20min max
nap2: 12:00 aim for 2hr10min
nap3: 16:15~16:45 drop between 9month~10month
BT:19:00
这是我现在执行的routine, 首先请帮我回答怎么执行一个routine的基本常识，另外，请让她帮我解释一下是不是要根据睡眠需求总量确定wu 时间，因为好像对下面的 nap 有影响。抱歉发了这么多，现在脑子很乱，因为睡眠问题我已经很累很累了，我是从一个月前才发现他可能是一个较少的孩子,所以之前按照正常程序怎么都不对，他的每一天都过的不一样。平均睡眠水平的孩子一天两觉就可以了，他好像怎么也达不到，总在晚上睡觉前就困了。还有，他学会自己入睡前一天睡三个catnap,晚上就睡得很好。其他人告诉我这就是睡眠需求少的孩子的特征。
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Gejun, 对不起，我住在国外的。现在是白天工作的时候。电话不方便。还有为了你的安全，最好不放你的电话号码在open forum 上。
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Gejun, 如果我贴英文，你看得懂， 对吧？因为其他的人可以看我给的提议是否适合。
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Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding. 1) I think if he wakes up briefly in a nap or at night sleep and goes back to sleep, those are natural sleep transitions. You may not need to go to help him. 2) the routines regarding the exact time, they are just examples. Every child is different and every family has different needs. You don't have to try to match the exact time. Routine is important to have an expected pattern of events. The times change as the child grows anyway. 3) if you feel that it works better with 3 naps, then it is good to do 3 naps. However, we usually find that if there is too much sleep (too many hours of naps or nap too close to bedtime,) LO becomes not tired enough for a long restful night sleep. Sometimes Lo needs to be taught to do longer night sleep when we cut the day sleep a bit. If 3 naps work best for him now, you can keep them. When he gets older, at some point, that last nap will have to go. You can consider earlier night bed time when you don't offer the 3rd nap. It is just a suggestion if you want to try.
I understand how tired you are. Another option is to accept that Lo wakes around 6 and you go to bed earlier to allow you more sleep. Lo changes very fast, so when you fix it now, it will change again. Lots of hugs.
看得懂吗？ 我可以用中文在贴一遍，没问题。
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贴中文吧，麻烦了，我怕有误解了某些细节。我贴了电话是没考虑周到，确实目前很焦虑
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I post the same things in Chinese.
有几点我想解释：
1） 睡觉醒来，然后再睡，可以当作一直睡就好了。因为睡觉是一个不停转变的自然过程。很多时候我们不用去帮他的。
2） 我们提供的时间表，只是做参考。你不需要按照列出的时间。当孩子成长的过程，时间是不停地改变得。
3） 如果3次午睡最适合你们，那你可以找你自己的routine. 但是过不多久，宝宝大一点，第三个小睡应该不能留的。
我明白你现在很困，如果你的孩子是六点起来，那你早点睡觉吧。这个阶段会很快过去的。 应该珍惜这点宝宝的时间去享受可爱的宝宝。放松一点吧。
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你可能误解我的问题了，我的问题是现在不管几次小睡，他都会night waking, 有时长达1个小时，一夜醒好几次。这让我很担心他，我也休息不好，早醒我也可以接受，但多次的夜醒肯定影响健康，我很担心他。
我的感觉是因为他是lsn, 所以很难平衡白天和晚上的睡眠，以前他只睡3个catnap时，晚上不醒，即使醒，吃了奶很快睡，后来白天睡长了后，就开始早醒和夜醒了，开始可能是UT,后来可能是OT.
所以我想要调整，规律他的作息。
我想我现在面临的问题有两个：(请把这两个问题也翻译给他们吧)
1、一个合适他这种LSN的routine, 关于这个，论坛里的Marti85和Katie80都给了建议,。目前我在做的是Marti85的建议，但效果不明显，还是夜醒，但我想任何一个routine不可能一两天就完全成功了，所以我想再坚持一周看看，但我怀疑我在执行时很多细节不对，例如早上wake up的时间，希望她能明确的再讲下。
2、如何执行一个routine, 例如早上超过什么时间叫醒，什么时间放到床上睡觉，如果他花了很长时间才睡着，到了醒的时间怎么办，具体问题看我上面用中文写的吧。
我觉得如果我执行的不对，可能怎么坚持也不会得到好的结果。
我多么希望享受这个过程，可是连续两个月我和baby都睡不好觉的时候，我就很茫然和焦虑了，身体状况也差了。
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The problem I met is not early waking, 6:00 is acceptable for me, but long night waking is terrible, if Lo could sleep all night without long night waking, one or two or three nap are all acceptable, since I think night sleep is more important for baby and me, when he grows up, he needn’t day nap someday, but night sleep will last whole life.
I just found he is LSN just from one month ago, his nap and night sleep are different everyday, it’s so difficult to banlance his day and night sleep.
Now, I want to help him sleep better, I think need to solve two problems:
First: how to do a new routine in details,
about WU, when put him down for nap, when wake him, how to do if he take long time to fall sleep, how to do if he wake ealier, like I post above, because I doubt I did in a wrong way, if that, I will never get a good result even the routine is suitable for us. Why need couple of weeks to assess a routine, because LO need couple of weeks to settle him quickly and the length of sleep will reach the schedule? Or just need couple of weeks to lock the schedule. If he cann’t get it at the first days, how to deal with his overtired.
Second: a routine suitable for us,
thanks for these lovely ladies here, Marti85 and Katie80 gave me suggestion and hugs. I did the routine by Marti85 over ten days, I will persist it for one more week to assess if it is suitable for me. If not, I will take katie80 suggestion or other options. For routine by Marti85, which from a book, I read the book recently but cann’t understand the WU time well, maybe My English is not good, I didn’t know when WU should be if LO total sleep requirement is 13hr to 13hr 20mins. The books state 6:00~6:30,.
It will be nice if Marti85 could explain for it and you make a translation for me.
I know baby grow so fast, maybe 3 months later , he will only need one nap as a LSN, things will become easy, but I still want to help him with a happy day and peaceful night, and everyday is predicable. He is my first bay, I understand Mummy is not easy job now.
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Honey - firstly very sorry that I am replying just now, not earlier. I am so busy at work that it really is difficult to follow every thread I was involved, especially when I see lovely ladies helping you here! I haven't managed to go through all you have posted as have no time, but I will try to address the most important & urging matters you ask.
1. Being a LSN
- You write about your son sleep needs a lot, but please be aware Honey that if he is OT he might sleep less that he really needs. My DS was doing 11,5h night + 1.5h of day sleep between 5.5mo and 8mo as had short naps because of nursery what gives you overall 13h and today (10months later he is doing 13.5-14h on average!).
- I would have some doubts frankly speaking if he is a true LSN as he seems to be very tired on this routine you give him, and LSN child would be rather fine with this amount of sleep. It's possible it's cummulated OT of course.
2. NIGHT WAKINGS
- Please be aware that routine is not the only reason for night wakings. There are many different reasons and you should firstly eliminate them. These are:
a/ teething - at that age my LO started teething and we did have 1.5mo of night waking, no matter what kind of routine I tried
b/ self-settling skills - this is very important. Is he an independent sleeper? What do you do when he wakes? Does he have any props like dummy? Is his room darkened and is it silent there?
c/ feeding/ hunger - does he have any NFs still? If not, when had he dropped them? What are his E times during day? How much milk & solids during day he takes?
d/ OT - when younger, LOs tend to STTN even when OT, but when they grow older 6mo+ if they are OT, they can have night waking both long and short because they slept too little during day
d/ UT - of course your LO can be UT, but all the info you provide doesn't suggest that to me. Are his NWs happy/chatty ones? Do you have any problem with him settling for night or naps?
3. WU
Post 6am is a fine WU. You may try to teach your LO to play in his crib without you when he wakes by putting him in the crib during day for independant play. But is he is waking because of OT or hunger, you will not be able to do much more. Have you tried to feed him to sleep when he wakes on any of these night wakings to break the habit of waking and prevent OT?
And now some advice and questions:
1. How do you react when he wakes at night? Maybe we can tweak that?
2. His waking during long nap suggests OT to me as he is possible to resettle and overall sleeps 2h. Can you put him down 10-15min earlier for this nap?
3. I wouldn't wake in the morning before 6am or at 6am. If he had a NW you may think of waking him at 6:30/7am to prevent sleeping in.
HTH
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Gejun, 你说，你要问的是关于wake up的问题。还有想知道根据'martii的建议，你是否处理正确，对吗？
What Gejun wants to know is:
NWs have been consistently long now no matter how many naps. She hopes to help her Lo to have better quality night sleep.
1) she wants to know if she handles it correctly at wake up. What to do when it takes longer time for him to fall asleep or he wakes up too early? Gejun is willing to stay close to the routine for longer to see if it suits her Lo.
2) Gejun has been following Marti's suggestion routine for a week and didn't get good results. She wants to know what wake up time should be for an LO with 13-13h20m sleep needs. The book seems to say around 6-6:30.
Gejun would like Marti to explain those. I can help with translation.
My response in my experience and understanding is that, there is no such thing as the wake up time that a child should follow. The times are references only. You might go crazy in order to reach a certain time when it is not necessary.
The usual thing to do for waking up too early from a nap is to move the next nap time or sleep time 15-30 mins earlier because Lo is more tired after a shorter nap. On the same principle, after a full restful nap, nap time can be 15 mins later to avoid UT.
In Chinese:
一般早醒的处理方法，是将下一个睡眠时间提早15-30分钟，来避免OT的情况。同样避免UT是将睡眠时间延迟10-30分，根据你的宝宝而定。
对，作妈妈真的不容易。你是他的最好的妈妈，别太焦虑。
Mother's job is not easy. Don't worry too much. You are the best mother for him. Hugs
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Posted with you Marti. I will translate the main points in Chinese.
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Gejun,
Marti 的回答。
1）LSN：OT可以引起睡眠短。她觉得你的宝宝可能只是OT，而不是LSN。
2）NW的原因：可以有很多，不一定是routine的问题。譬如：
a）出牙。不舒服引起的NW，routine帮不了。
b）自己帮自己睡觉：这个是重要的，他自己要学的。他用奶嘴？房间够暗和静吗？他醒的时候，你如何反应？
C) 肚子饿：晚上还要吃吗？白天吃得够吗？固体食物跟奶够吗？
d） OT：六个月以上的LO，OT会引起或长或短的NW。
e）UT： UT当然可以引起Nw，但她觉得你的LO，从你的posts看，可能是OT的。他醒来的时候，是开心的?
WU：
早上六点之后是可以的。你可以训练他在床里，自己玩，你不用去。白天放他进床里面习惯自己玩。
最后的提议：
1）NW时，你如何反应，可能我们可以在这些下一点功夫，改变一点点。
2）小睡时醒来，然后又睡过去，应该是OT。你可以早10-15分放下他么？
3）marti不会在六点前叫醒LO。特别是NW之后。大概6：30-7：00，起床，避免睡过头。
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最近几天好像没有很长时间的夜醒了，所以我想继续她这个routine 试试。即使他不是一个LSN,我想那本书提到的方法可以帮助lsn修复他们的睡眠，所以想再继续试一下。关于WU的问题，我想确定个时间是想避免由于NW而造成Sleep in, 如果他只能睡11个小时，到6点，由于夜醒，会不会6:00~6:30也属于sleep in了，如果以后他睡眠有规律了，我想不用那么严格，但现在再做这个routine 时不用保持一个固定的时间以避免sleep in吗？因为我发现如果他睡到6:30，会拒绝下午那个20mins的nap.而如果6:00醒，通常不会。这个问题请她再确认下？
我的baby 是个能自己睡觉的小孩，不需要奶嘴或其他任何安抚物，房间也够暗，他晚上醒的时候几乎不哭，有时哭一声然后又睡了，基本不需要我做什么，如果醒的时间很长，我试图安抚或喂奶粉，他也不会很快睡着，反而不太喜欢。我应该怎么反应呢？我担心过度反应会干扰他。
所以关于夜醒，基本我做不了什么，他自己睡回去，因为他几乎不哭。他有时自己说话，有时哭一声，不会大哭或哭很久。
他在5.5个月时，自己停止吃夜奶，一觉睡了11个小时，从那以后没有夜间再喂过。
他早晨醒后会自己在小床里玩，不会哭着喊人；
他吃的很多，白天吃多于800ml的奶，和相当数量的固体糊状食物。
Eat:7：00 240ml formula
7:20 少量oatmeal cereal
9:30 90~110ml formula
11:20 solid food, rice, vegetable,fish ,一共150g 大概，好几大勺。 water
14:30 150~180ml formula
17:00 solid, fruit, rice
18:30 240ml formula
我不知道应该喂他多少固体食物，尤其在中午，喂到他不吃吗？他从不拒绝，好像喂多少都吃，我有时感觉差不多就不再多喂了，他也没有非要吃，我没有喂饱他吗？白天的nap会不会因为饥饿醒了再睡回去？
另一个她问的回答：晚上或白天睡觉时，我把他放床上，没遇到哭的情形，晚上通常3~8分钟。白天通常他如果很累，会很快睡着，有时却会花上10分钟，不哭，是不是不累？我不知她所指可能遇到的problem 是指什么，如果不能在两分钟内睡着就算有问题吗？
如果夜醒时间长，通常都需要怎样再resettle 他呢？我好像没有什么办法，只能等他自己睡着，他也不哭，但感觉他也想睡回去。
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另外，koe2moe, 在执行一个routine时，通常都是怎么做的，固定时间放到床上吗？还是留几分钟给他入睡，是不是如果你固定一个时间，等一两周他适应后就会很快入睡，否则你怎么知道他到底睡了多久呢？除非守在他的房间里吧。尤其是为了下一个nap而控制第一个nap的时间时。如果他都能在两分钟内入睡，就可以在房间外订好闹钟，时间到了叫醒就好了吧，等他习惯了会不会自己到时间就醒？不知Marti是怎么做的，她宝宝好像也叫醒过第一个nap,或是你认为你们通常的做法
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Haven't yet seen your answer - but around that age I resigned from that routine (short-long-short) as it wasn't suitable for nursery.
Until 8mo we did:
WU 6:30-7:00 but was lying in bed alone without crying
Nap 9:40-20min
Nap 12:30 - 45min to 2h depending on the day, mostly 45min.......:/ when 2h, always broken
Nap around 4:00 for 20-40min
BT 7pm
After 9mo we started as below: (8 till 9mo was a transition time between these routines):
WU 6:30-7:00 but was lying in bed alone without crying
Nap at 11:15 capped at 1.5 if needed but he usually just woke by himself, no resettling!!
Nap at 4pm for 30min
7pm BT
HTH
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Marti, I'm going to translate Gejun's replies.
She wrote:
The last few days there didn't seem to be any long NWs, that's why I would like to continue to try this routine. Even if he isn't LSN, i think the methods mentioned in the book to help LSN kids to restore sleep will be able to help my LO, so I want to continue to try. About WU, I want to verify the time in order to prevent sleep in due to NW. If he can only sleep 11hours, till 6am, due to NW, would 6-6:30 still be considered sleep in? When he has a good routine, i think it is ok to be not so rigid, but now following this routine, don't I need to stick with a fixed time to avoid sleep in? It is because I found out that if he sleeps till 6:30, he will refuse the afternoon 20 mins nap. If he wakes at 6, he usually will not refuse that nap. Please check with Marti.
My lo is an independent sleeper, no dummy or any other comfort item, room is dark, when he wakes in the night, he almost doesn't cry. Sometimes he cries once and then goes back to sleep. he doesn't need anything from me. if he wakes for a long time, i try to comfort him or feed him, still he will not go back to sleep soon, he might even get unhappy. How should I respond? I am worried that if I over react, it will disturb him.
From 5.5 months, he stopped night feeds and STTN for 11 hours. No night feeds since then. In the morning, he plays in his bed and not cries for people.
He eats a lot. Day time he takes 800ml milk and quite a bit of solids.
(Marti pls check the Eat amount on Gejun's original post)
I don't know how much solids to feed him, especially in the afternoon, feed until he stops eating? He usually doesn't refuse, seems like he will take everything offered to him. Sometimes when I feel that it is quite a bit, so I stop, he doesn't seem to want more, do I need to feed more? Day time nap short wake up, can it be caused by hunger?
Another of Marti's question: night or day sleep, I put him down, when there is no crying, night time it takes 3-8 mins, and day time he is usually very tired and falls asleep very quickly. sometimes takes about 10 mins, not crying, is that not tired enough? if he cannot fall asleep within 2 mins, is that a problem?
If NW is long, what should I do to resettle him? I don't seem to have any ways to help except to wait till he falls asleep himself, as he doesn't cry and i feel that he wants to go back to sleep.
(the following is the next post)
Furthermore, when carrying out a routine, what should I do usually? Put down at the set time? or put down a few minutes before to let him fall asleep? Is it true that when we do set bedtime, after 1-2 weeks transition, he will then fall asleep very quickly? Otherwise, how can you tell exactly how long he sleeps? Unless I wait in his room? ESpecially this can affect the time for the next nap. If he falls asleep within 2 mins, then I can set an alarm to wake him, when he gets used to it, will he wake up himself? I want to know what Marti would do. She seemed to have wake her LO up for first nap, or is this the usual way?
(That's all from the two posts)
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thanks for the translation. I write down to save time since we are in different time, maybe KOE2MOE could check it if the English is not correct.
5月12日和13日的晚上非常好，几乎没有长时间的夜醒。12th MAY and 13th MAY , nights looks much better, only very short NW, obviously little OT. but yesterday he refuse the nap in pram, so much overtired, and night wake more.
这两个晚上只有几次小哭两声或者醒了很快睡回去，很明显是白天没睡好有些累
5.12
Wu:6:00
S:8:47~9.07
S:12:~14:00, wake and 12:43 and asleep again
S:16:29~16:46
BT:19:00
5.13
WU:5.55. no prolonged NW all night, only some little cry last one or two seconds,
S:8:44~9:04
S:12:00~13:20, he wake then touched his toy, make a noise, so he cann’t asleep again
S:16:20~16:40
5.14
Wu:6:20, no prolonged waking, maybe two NW, but asleep quickly
S: 8:50~9:19,
S:12~14:00, wake at 12:36 and 13:30
He refuse the last nap even in pram till 17:00, but seems tired 17:00, we back home because his dinner. I don't know why he refuse the nap, because he got up late?or noon nap was broken 2hr? but several days ago , same broken 2hr, he was asleep easily in pram.
BT:19:00, he was tired when drink last bottle formula
5.15.
WU:6:20 several short cry during night, obviously OT, at 4:00, wake for ten mins, then suck his thumb ,sleep slightly after that. He yawns after waking up.
Now I don’t know how to do in following days, obviously he was not satisfied with his daysleep, overtired, but not too much, I am not sure if I should increase the length of the first nap to 30mins or put him down earlier.
According my experience, if allow him sleep as much as he want before 9:00, maybe a long nap, to compensate his poor night, but the following nap will be short, and not sure if he fight the third nap, then the following morning will be bad also.
I also find wake him up after morning nap at 20mins is not easy, I have to stay at his room, go make sure when he was asleep to decide when to wake him up, I cann’t sure when he was asleep since 20 mins is so strictly.
It seems like we have some similar at 8 month, I think cannt pull him to 11:15 now for his night is with NW, he maybe overtied and only take a short nap at 11:00? How do you do with the transiton? you just pull him to 11:15 someday or gradually with it? lo is 8.5 month now, I think whatever routine , he will needn't three naps, if still do it, maybe result in other problem. nights became better this week maybe because he grow up? I never got a short morning nap with a long afternoon nap, maybe his nature.
for the question about settled on day nap, he always asleep within 2 mins at 12:00, take 2mins for nap around 8:45 if he get up 6:00, but take 5~8mins if get up 6:20 or 6:30, I make him calm 15mins before nap , with reading stories on my lap, then sing for him
his tired cues are not obvious, he is more intersted in crawl and stand , he is strong and skilled with crawl and stand with a little support.
现在我不知道后面几天该如何做了，他明显对白天的睡眠不太满意，有些过度疲劳，但好像又不是很多。我不确定是否应该增加上午的睡眠到30分钟或是中午提早睡，我可能会让他提早睡。
根据我之前的经验，如果有夜醒，早上又让他随意睡的话，他可能睡的久来弥补晚上的睡眠，但这样会造成白天后面的觉短，而且不确定他会不会抵抗第三个nap. 同时早上睡太多补交的话好像第二天还是会夜醒和早醒，像个恶性循环。
同时我觉得早上睡20分钟叫醒不是很容易，这个太严格了，我不得不呆在他的房间里确定他什么时间睡着的，才能确定什么时间叫醒。
关于入睡的问题，他在中午觉是通常很快入睡，早上如果6点起，8:45很快睡着，如果6:20或更晚起床，可能需要7、8分钟才能睡着。他现在困的信号不是很明显，他更喜欢玩，到处爬和站。
你是如何做８～９个月的转变呢？突然从某一天就直接拖到１１点多睡午觉吗？还是逐步的做？我觉得这周他晚上的睡眠变好可能是长大了缘故，他快９个月了。应该不再睡三觉了，但我不知怎么变成两觉，上午短，下午长之前好像从没成功
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for two naps, is anyone get sucessful on 30 or 40 mins around 9:00 or 9:30, another nap 13:00 or 13:30, 1h 30mins, (I think we cann't get 2hrs.) , I am not sure if he can keep active before 19:00 after a 1.5hrs nap, 1.5 months ago, he would tired around 18:00, maybe now it's acceptable for he get elder? total day sleep around 2 hrs is max we got, Occasionally we got broken 2hrs nap,with a 40mins morning, NW or EW happened. it's just a ideal ,maybe he will not sleep even 1.5hr now, who knows. if that ,we will have no time to do a cat nap between BT.
I am prudent for change a routine ,because his Nw is not terrible this week. but we are really both tired of three strict naps, watching clock at morning everyday ,like a slave of naps.
I think too lot maybe these two days, for the Nw has last so long ,nearly two months， don't know what will happened next day, if it will be better when he grow up, talking it out feel better.
我对换一个方式目前有些担心，因为夜醒好像不那么严重了，但是对于每天三个严格的nap,我已经很累了，每天看表叫醒他，像个小睡的奴隶。
他的白天睡眠量之前只最多两个小时，偶尔出现大于两个小时的断裂的午睡，当晚就会夜醒或早醒。
不知有没有人成功过上午睡30或40分钟，下午一个半小时就能坚持到晚上7点睡觉，以前我的宝宝达不到，总在18:00困的不行，现在不知长大后是否可以呢？可能只是理想状态，也许随着他长大了，下午连1个半小时也睡不了了，如果那样的话，晚上睡觉前连再加个CN的时间都没有了。
讲了很多，感觉好一些，夜醒持续了太长时间，快两个月了，每天不知道第二天会怎样，不知道他长大到什么时候会改善，实在有些exhausted.
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Oh Honey, I am very sorry you are so exhausted.
Can I ask if I get right - he is self settling during his night wakings? So you call his short cryouts at night a NW? Even if you are not needed for resettling?
On his naps, does he resettle by him self?
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yes, resettled is not needed during night and day nap, only this week, short cryouts. but one week ago, Nw kept longer, but he didn't cryout, I try to feed, rocking him was no use, he finally was asleep again after a long waking.
yesterday, he fight the afternoon 20mins nap before 17:00 in pram, so very tired at BT.
he just woke from 1hr 30mins borken noon nap, he cried to end up the nap unlike before he could resettled himself. I think he will need a afternnon nap today.
I'd like to learn what happened during your one month transiton, since he had used to be a routine, it's smooth with new time table or mess?
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亲爱的 Koe2moe,
帮我翻译下下面这些：
当把宝宝放到小床上时，什么时间开始计时是他睡着呢？闭上眼睛，没有声音，身体不动？ 如果闭上眼睛，身体不动，但在吸手指是不是不能算作睡着的开始？我发现唯一一次午睡两小时是在我认为他睡着后的24~25分钟，而不是20分钟。是不是我开始计时的时间不对？
I have a question about when to "start the clock" as baby is asleep？I just find the only day I got 2hrs solid noon nap, after a 25mins nap , not 20mins. I've been using the moment he became quiet even if he still suck his thrum as the start time, is it too early?
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Honey, cryouts at night with self settling shouldn't be counted as night waking. If he goes back to sleep quickly, that's great.
Re 20min nap, I have put DS down and counted roughly 20min (sometimes it was 18 sometimes 22). I would start to put him down at 8:30 let's say and wake at 9, so sometimes he will take 20, sometimes 25, sometimes 18. Reason why Shayne doesn't recommend longer nap is not because it's too long but because it maybe tough to wake baby at 25' mark as they entered deep sleep. But frankly speaking we have never seen that with my DS.
The reason he slept solid 2h just confirms that he is slightly OT. So either start to give him 25' nap in the morning, or put him down 11:50 for a nap. Cap morning nap or push noon nap later when he stops doing 2h.
Remember than when he is not taking afternoon nap he will be tired not only this evening but probably also next morning. The reason he is taking different time to settle in the morning is that sometimes he is less sometimes more tired. It's normal.
I wouldn't wake him from a noon nap if he is sleeping longer than 2h. Even Shayne suggests that this nap might be longer. It should enable him to self regulate (if he needs he will take a longer nap) and should enable you to eliminate evening nap.
HTH
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I was out the whole day. Sorry no computer time.
Gejun, I hope that what Marti posted is clear. The answer to "when to start counting as bedtime?" Doesn't need to be so exact, as Marti said.
Mantra cries is self settling skills and when you don't need to help, it doesn't count as NW.
Oh Chinese lol
有时候多几分钟，少几分钟，是正常的。只要不超过25分钟，因为可能进入了深睡的阶段，那样比较难叫醒LO。
晚上一两声叫声，又不需要你帮助的，不算NW，这是正常睡眠阶段的转接。
希望现在请楚一点吧。
Koe
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好的，这个明白了。另外我想如果这个routine也不适合我们话，开始一个较长的觉和在11:15和一个16:00左右的nap, 怎么做转换？
ok, I got it. what should I do if I want to make transition to routine with a long am and a short CN around 16:00?
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Push first nap Honey - slowly or quickly, depending how your LO would prefer and stop capping. First days this nap will be short probably. But when you get to around 10:30/11:00 he should start doing a longer one. And the offer a second nap around 3:30/4:00 for 10-30min depending what your LO needs. Mine needed solid 30min in the afternoon after 1.5h 11am nap and still was very tired at BT.
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Dear Kooe2moe,could you translate for me following?你能帮我翻译下下面这些吗？
(((Hugs))), I'm sorry I'm having a hard time consistently getting on to help!
I think you have a couple viable options...
1)
Quote from: creations on May 04, 2015, 22:30:22 PM
How about letting him sleep as long as he likes for the first nap for the next few days so he can catch up on lost sleep?
I think I suggested this above. Have you ever tried to do just a standard routine with him? It looks to me from you EASYs above that his ideal A time is likely around 3-3.5hr. What about putting him down around then and letting him sleep and then doing the same for the second nap, waking him up to keep a 12-13hr day (whatever is your preference)?
Or...
2)
Quote from: gejun on May 03, 2015, 09:35:08 AM
I found after a full nap , 40min, he can wake 3hr, but 3omin or less, maybe 2.5hr ,maybe because his night sleep not good?
Then maybe we need to alter the original plan and do something like this...
WU 6am
Nap 1 9-9:40am
Nap 2 12:40-2:40pm
BT 6:30/7pm
I'll let you look at Katie80's suggestions above so as not to confuse things by offering more advice. We were doing something very similar to the second option she suggested at 8 months if that helps. In fact, we had our first one nap day at that age, but jack really is very LSN, so I wouldn't suggest trying that right now! Anyway, just wanted to let you know I've totally been there, I know it's horrible, and I also know that it does get better (I promise!) X
我想他们的这两个建议我大概明白，也都试过，是我最早的做法，但遇到的问题都是两个nap,无论如何，最后一个都不够长，然后都是18:00就困了，这样就会一天一天醒的更早。
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at first days, the first nap before 10:30 and short, how do deal with the second nap, same 30mins at 15~16? if only two short naps whole day, will Lo be overtired , right?
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I have tried similar with Katie80's suggestion in March, at least two weeks for each. the first one like let him sleep as he want. the second one is a short moring nap with a long nap, same problems are when two naps, the last one 1.5hr max, always 1hr 15min, he was very tired before BT 19:00, If allow a CN, the nap always too late, up 17:00 or later. if earlier BT, wake earlier next moring.
for the routine 20mins,your LO could get a great night with different length of noon nap ,.but my LO didn't.
It's seems like all routines didn't work.
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at first days, the first nap before 10:30 and short, how do deal with the second nap, same 30mins at 15~16? if only two short naps whole day, will Lo be overtired , right?
I am sorry for misexplaining. In the end, first nap should be long (1.5h) but when it's short, just put LO for a second nap around 3h after wake up from first one and let him sleep at least 1.5h so ie:
10:30-11:00
14:00-15:30
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sorry my English is not good enough. I guess your WU is around 6:30? I mean at first days,LO need time to adapt pushing his A, when the first nap is before 10:30, for example begin at 9:30, but short, how to deal with the second nap
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Just play with nap times. Any A between 2.5-4h could be fine for your LO depending of how many times a day he has it.
So with nap at 9:30 his morning A is around 3h, so you can push for second a to be 3.5 let say and have a nap at 13:30/14:30 depending when will he wake from the nap.
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Hi hi. Lots of hugs.
I want to know if EBT has ever been suggested? I found for my DS, if his Wu time started shifting earlier, then his Wu time became his perfect bedtime 12 hours later. So if he woke up at 6, his bt should be 6 for that day and he would sleep would long NW and he might still Wu at 6 the next morning (usually later) and then he was less OT. This way Lo is well rested so you can keep Lo from too OT. Then it is easier to find the right A time.
If you want to try this, only try 3-5 days, then review. Usually if you find the right time, (in the few causes that I have helped on), you should see improvements quite soon.
Are there any posts you need translating?
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亲爱的koe2moe,
如果可以，把他们的关于建议的多翻译给我吧，包括刚才你写的，虽然我看得懂大部分，但最近缺乏睡眠，昏昏沉沉的。
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Gejun,
marti 的建议是：
目标是第一个觉达到1.5h，达不到的话，第二个A，不超过3h.
2.5-4hA都有可能的，因为每一个lo都不同。这个是你要寻找的。
如果WU是6：30，那9：30nap只有3hA。可以尝试延长A，希望可以延长睡的时间。你可以直接10：00 nap，或者是每天迟一点10-15分，慢慢来。这是每一个lo都不同的。
另外，我的建议是，如果他6点醒来，6点晚上是他的bedtime。这叫EBT（early bed time). 目的是让避免OT累积。如果他睡得够，你可以比较容易找到他真正需要的A。这个是我自己的经验。如果你要试的话，3-5天已经够了。通常是适合的话，已经可以看到改善。
我打中文很慢。我觉得你的理解是对的。不然的话，我会跟你解释。希望能帮到你。
Hugs, Koe
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太感谢你了，虽然互不相识，你已经给了我很多无私的帮助了。
关于Marti 你的建议，我的疑问是当第一觉还没达到1个半小时，第二觉是随他睡多久吧，以为第一觉不够长，第二觉不能只睡半小时吧。
另外，你的建议正式我需要的，我觉得baby已经累积了oT,如果太累的话可能调整起来怎么都不对。你是指控制不让他的白天过得太长，这样3~5天可以让他从ot的状态回到正常状态吗？这几天是不是应该根据他困的信号让他睡，想睡多久睡多久，有点儿像另一位女士给的第一个建议。如果第二觉不够长，就提早上床。
可不可以应该控制每个白天的时间在不超过13个小时，因为我的baby从未有过连睡12个小时的经历，从小就不爱睡觉，每天三个catnap. 如果他能规律地在7点晚上睡觉，估计晚上他最长也只能达到11~11.5个小时。剩下只有两个小时留给了白天，像是大孩子一个午觉的时间，所以感觉怎么安排都不行。
昨天没有夜醒，但是早上5点多就醒了，所以我刚才6点就让他睡了。
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不谢。我们都是在这里互相帮忙的。
1）对的。第一觉短的话，第二觉就像你已经做的，比较长，让他睡。希望慢慢第一A延长后可以延长第一觉。有些lo适合第一觉短第二觉长的。但是你的第二觉也延长不了。所以，提议是尝试延长。
2）关于我提议的EBT，因为有些lo，醒来更早，5：30，那样更糟糕。所以如果不适合他的话，就算了。你已经让他EBT。我试过要用SEBT（Super early bed time). 意思是早于6：00的bedtime.
我自己 孩子的情形是5：30bedtime，迟5分钟也不行，但他睡到7：00。
清楚一点吗？
Koe
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清楚些了。孩子的觉其实秩序性很强，前一觉长了，后一觉就短，或者相反，只是有时不是那么容易被成人算出来的。我的孩子也曾有过很天使的阶段，所以现在的混乱让我不知所措。我试图让他更有规律些，虽然不知道会不会成功，也许快成功时他又长大了，变化了，没准儿过两个月只需要睡一个午觉了。我忽然发现其实即使有经验的妈妈，也有混乱的阶段吧。最后一切总会过去，在这里可以找到帮助，同时在这里和大家讲出来也放松自己，“原来不止我自己遇到了麻烦”！一直很天使的宝宝可能只在比人家吧。
具体的情况只能靠自己摸索了，主要是在这个过程中避免OT, 如果要做任何改变，都要逐步的改变，你提到的避免OT, 主要是控制白天的长度，还有EBT, 还有其他避免OT的办法分享吗？下面这些情况遇到过吗？帮我看下分析的对不对：
我自己感觉如果早醒了，好像如果任由他在早上距他醒来后较短的时间睡太长，类似补觉的话，好像会恶性循环。夜醒如果很开心的话可能是UT, 其他夜醒可能就是OT或是其他不舒服了，早上早醒如果很快又睡回去可能是OT了，如果醒来很开心的cot play，有可能就是UT了吧。
白天睡觉时，如果我把他放下，十几分钟还不睡，是不是不够累，不想睡？如果不够累，但习惯在某个时间睡觉后，是不是也会去睡觉？另外，我遇到过很多次白天nap过程中醒来一小会儿又睡着的情况，每次出现这种情况晚上也会睡不好，感觉这种nap的修复性特别差，是不是睡前太累了？应该更早些让他睡，像marti讲的。
最后，我好像没有什么resettle 的方法，因为通常他即使夜里醒来，也很少大哭，自己累了会再睡，但时间会比较长，你们都怎么做的呢？
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你的理解已经很不错。如你说的，孩子成长的阶段变化很大。其他影响睡眠的因素可以很多。我已经将Marti列的翻译过。
十分钟才睡着可能是以上的原因，UT或OT。我们都觉得你的方法很适当。睡觉还是要宝宝自己的。你们的情况真的不错。别过份着急。晚上醒来而不需要你帮忙的是他学习的过程，不打扰他是最好的方法。
加油！！
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yesterday he was tired around 18:00, have to put down at 18:30, today he woke up at 5:30, no NW, stired aournd 4:00 ,after 5:00, seems slight sleep.
He showed signs before 8:00, I put him down at 8:50, asleep at 8:52, I don't want him catch up lost sleep quickly.
I want to let him sleep as he want to recovery from OT, but he woke after 39mins, is a overtired nap? he is ok without cry after this nap, but not very happy too, so I think he was not rest well from this nap, if I put him at 12:30, he must be very tired at that time, so I still put him down at 12:00, he asleep quickly, but still a broken nap with a cry at 36mins,but not wake, then wake at 13:20 with cry, cann't asleep again. is the A from the first nap is still too long today? is he still OT before 12:00, I haven't got a solid nap over 1hr, will be habitual ? if so ,it's terrible.
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Honey I am sorry but I don't follow the routine you are going for.
35-45min time naps can be both UT or OT so it's difficult to say. I would say first nap was rather UT and he was not interested in any catch up... Second nap probably also UT as you could extend and you usually was quite successful with that. Probably because first nap was too long to expect a long nap at 12 noon.
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Marti 的意思是她没有试过你的routine，所以她不知道。
35-45 分可以是UT或OT。很难说。她觉得有可能第一觉太长，所以12点不够累。routine 好像是第一觉短，不超过30分。
如果EBT不适合你的lo，就算了吧。
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I want to stick the Sheyone routine, but the day before yesterday I just allow him to sleep over 30mins ,maybe I asleep at that time. yesterday with Nw, I woke him at 6:30,after 20mins nap, he cried out at 13:00, less than 1hr, he cann't asleep again, I have no expence to resettle him, he looks OT, tired at 16:00. after a CN, I woke him , he was very very upset and cried. he seldom cried, so yesterday was bad, I thought he was very tried yesterday, so BT early at 18:20, he woke 5:57 this morning , NW 4:20~4:40.
last week , we had almost got rid of NW, but his noon nap became shorter and shorter, unstalble and unpredicable. last week, after wake from the noon nap, he could resettle himslef easily, but this week, he cried out to end the nap. I don't know if I should resign from this routine, for these book is so thick, I am afraid maybe I did somethingwrong,for example swaddle, communication and so on, I guide him to play in the cot, lie down when changing nappy, but seems still much need to do, and I hate waking him.
The reAson I choose this routine is I never be successful with two long naps or short am with long afternoon, alway total 2hrs , it's hard to reach the BT, and his longest night is 11hr 20min, mostly 11hrs.
If I resign from this routine, for a long morning nap and a short afternoon nap, it's difficult since his waking time always 6:00~6:20
. I lost my mind now, Just want to keep him away from OT.
any suggestion about routine to cater his demand?
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Gejun, hugs.
His night was longer. It seems like you are doing all the right things. When you calm down and trust yourself, your baby will feel calmer, too. Try and keep the first nap short and it seems to be going the right direction. Follow your gut feeling about earlier bedtime.
晚上睡眠时间是长了。你已经掌握的很好。如果你能够放松下来，你的宝宝也会放松的。重点是第一觉短，不多于30分，那就好了。至于bt，你照你的感觉吧。放松些吧。
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最后还有一个问题，以前早上睡30或45分钟时，只要下午睡两个小时，中间睡到1小时15分钟时肯定醒，醒了会再睡，但醒了还是累，坚持不到晚上睡觉就困了。感觉这种长觉修复力很差，而且当晚一定睡不好，肯定夜醒。有没有遇到过这种情况？为什么他的长觉总是不连贯的呢？
这个帮我翻译下，看有没有遇到过类似情况的。长觉过程中不同的时间段哭醒可能是什么原因？
早觉的长短会影响下一个活动时间的长短吧，45分钟后的下一个活动时间肯定比30分钟要长吧。
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I'm going to translate the last post:
I have a last question: before when the morning nap was 30-45 mins, second nap would be 2 hours. During the nap, around 1h15, always woke, but would go back to sleep. But when he woke from the nap, he was always still tired. He couldn't last till bt. I feel that long nap is not restful enough and the night sleep was always not good and definitely woke in the night. Have you had this happened before? Why is his long nap not consistent?
Please translate this for me, see if there were similar situations before. Waking up crying in the middle of a nap, what is the cause?
The length of first nap should affect the following A time, right? After 45 min first nap, the following A should be longer, right?
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Hi Marii85.
I decide to resign from the 20mins routine, and try long am and short am , how long a day should keep?
if he wake up early , should add a CN to extend the day?
today he wake up 5:30, peaceful night without NW. Put down at 9:00, got a consistent nap around 1hr 10min, if another nap after 3~3.5hr, I think the nap will be around 40mins, it will be a long time till 19:00
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How to do get a reasonable get up time? if he wake ealier , it is impossible to get to 11:00 am nap, if keep a 12hr days, he will wake up early too, it 's a circle. how to get out of it?
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How old is he now?
That's the idea behind long am nap to push it and keep it reasonable late. If he wakes earlier just stay with him in his room, reassure him, and "start" the day at reasonable time.
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he is 8month 21 days.
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he wake at 5;30, and slept from 9:00~10:10, and yawns at 13:00,slept from 13:20 ,now it is 14:50,haven't wake, it seems something wrong, maybe the first nap is compensate early wake up?
when incease the A time, should according to his true waking up time?
what maybe happen during the first transition days, could you set some example?
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Hi Gejun,
I think it seems ok that he had 1h15 first nap, then more than 1h30 second nap and still sleeping. When you transition to a new routine, it is perhaps best to observe 3-5 days of what he does naturally at 3-3:30 A. When he wakes later from second nap, your bedtime is naturally later, closer to 7.
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谢谢，只是我突然发现改变原来的routine我不知该怎么做了，甚至不知道几点让他睡觉，这个routine没有一个确定的时间表，今天是看到他有困的信号。而他总是醒的早，这导致可能10点前必须睡觉。 我之所以改变原有的作息是过了3周仍然情况不好，这两天午睡时他醒来总是大哭，哭的都吐了。目前的做法更像是感觉他困了就让他睡，但我不确定感觉是否准确，因为他长大了，信号不明显了。我会记录几天的情况
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Your comments are that
1) you are a bit lost because of new routine: I think you follow 3-3.5h A and observe. When you observe, try not to change too many things, otherwise you get confused, and so do we (Marti, and others).
2) Last 2 days he woke up crying till he throws up. Just keep an eye on him to see if he is getting ill or not. He's almost 9 m and might be another GS coming up.
3) His tired cues are not very obvious now that he is older: it is very true. We (as mothers) need to cope with new changes. That's why we want to be baby whisperer :)
Good luck for the next few days. hugs
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好的，我观察两三天做好记录。他的健康看起来没有什么问题。
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If he seems healthy, then ok. Good luck coming days :)
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Please translate for me , I am really need help now.I don't know how to keep consistent, for wu and BT, WU is time he wake naturally?急需帮助，这几天情况很糟糕，我好像没有弄明白怎么 保持一致性来发现问题
给他的活动时间从3到3.5个小时的话，是从他自己自然醒开始算，还是从一个大致设定的时间算?第二个小觉从第一觉醒后算吗？晚上睡觉时间从第二觉醒后3到3.5个小时吗？It's getting worse, I must doing something wrong, my poor baby, maybe I am not consistent, should I let him sleep as he want after a poor night?
from Tuesday, we regigned from 20mins short nap routine since he suddenly cried out loud from noon nap for two days.
I just flowll a classic routine too see what happened or you can give some suggestions.
but on the first day, I got a longest NW for one and half hour, then following days were also bad, mutiple NW, some short, some long, and Ew with NW.
5.20
WU:5:30
S:9:00~10:11
S:13:20~14:55
BT;19;00, asleep at 19:09 (he kept be conscious till BT, and yawns around 18:40 after last bottle of formula )
NW : 4:00~5:30
During this one and half hour, he Chatted, seems happy, then quite, roll over, no cry. I had thougt he would be asleep soon when he was quiet, so I don’t want to disturb him, but soon he roll over or chat. At 5:30, he was asleep finally.
5.21
WU: 6:30
S:10:20~11.50 wake up
S:15:00~15:30, wake up ,he was tired at 14:30
BT:19:00
22:35 Cried and asleep one hour later
Wake at 3:00,4:00,5:00, finally wake up at 5:35
5.22
Wu:5:35
S:8:50-9:50
S:13:30~15:00 (I wake him to protect BT, but he was so tired at 18:00 when had formula, asleep at 18:20
5.23
Wu :5.20(NW AT 3:00, 4:00,each 20mins)
It seems if l let him sleep as much as he wanted, we fallen into a circle , day nap compensated poor night sleep?
How should I start a beginning now?
despite the poor sleep, DS's mood is OK.
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I already getting a lot of great advice from here, just found don't how to do it , because I never been successful on a solid routine,.he woke so ealier, should BT ealier too?
could you show a example for me ?
advice1: for a classic routine, with 3.5 hours A, the day should be start according when he wake up naturally?so everyday wu, nap time and BT will be different? shoudl I cap any nap if it looks like compensate for poor night?should I control total day sleep amount?
If he woke at 5:30, the first nap should be 9:30, the second should be 3.5hr after the first nap, let him sleep as he want? keep him wake despite he obviouly tired after a poor night? will be more NW and OT at first few days?
advice2; long am nap and CN afternoon, I Tried one day, I found it's easier to got 1.5 hr, maybe because of poor night, But he was tired soon, only after 2.5 hr,that's odd. is it possible af first days, more nw and OT? after he adapt it, things could be better?
I must be a stupid mum with a good baby, he seldom cried out.
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Hello Honey, just got back from the weekend out and about so I am able to answer.
Firstly - you are a GREAT mum and you have to start to believe in it. If you think you cannot cope, your LO will will it honey.
Please don't be so harsh for yourself and stop setting yourself goals you cannot reach (any of us couldn't reach it!).
So, now about routines. You have to go for one as you know. I would personally go for short/long nap routine as this one was working for you and just needed small tweaks. Now you started a new routine and long NW are back. But if you prefer not waking your LO and long/short routine it's also very fine. Now the details:
1. Short/long routine
- WU after 6am and BT 7pm are very acceptable for this routine
- I would do first nap at 9:00 and let 25min roughly (the timing for this nap is not so crucial, the most important is that this nap is very short; maybe do it in a pram as a nice morning walk when you do errands?)
- second nap at 12 noon - aim for 2h nap
- modify first nap: cut to 20min if second nap starts to be shorter than 1:45-2h or let 25min if you see that he is terrible OT for a second nap
- offer afternoon nap of only 20min not longer
PLEASE be aware that short wakes during night when he self settles are really fine at this age and some kids will just do it! No matter the routine! You may tweak the routine very slightly to address it ie let 2nd nap be 2:15 or 2:30 if possible or go for 6:45 BT. But be aware that ie my son will have cryouts at night even when very well rested:).
Sample routine:
6:30 WU
9:00 nap for 20min
12 noon nap for 2-2.5h
4:30 nap if needed, 20min maks
7pm BT
2. Long/short nap
- first A this age can be anything between 3.5-4.5h and I would go for set time finally here when you get where you want
- you have to assess how long A is needed by 2 things: length of this nap and morning wakeup; be aware this will change at this age very quickly; if the nap is shorter than 1.5 or morning WU if too early (like 5:30), nap has to be later;
- I would start doing this nap at set time and go for 9:00 for 3 days, than 9:15 for 3 days, 9:30 for 3 days; what you should see is your LO waking later in the morning so not 5:30, but 5:45, 6:00 etc; push the nap until the WU is at reasonable time you accept and set the nap ie at 11am
- I would cut this nap to 1.5h frankly so to let some time for second nap and as we are not sure if his your LO is LSN, 2h of day sleep should be enough
- probably shortly after (like after 1-2 weeks of routine working) you will have to push the nap further; so when LO starts to wake earlier in the morning or for couple of days the nap will be shorter than 1:15h, push the nap to 11:15.
- second nap in this routine for a LSN baby will probably be around 2.5-3.5h after waking from the first nap
Sample routine:
6:30 WU
10:30 nap (after 4h of A)
12:00 WU from the nap (after 1.5h - wake if needed)
3:00 second nap - wake at 4pm if needed; if refusing at 3, go for 3:15 or 3:30 and wake respectively
7pm
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Thanks so much Martii for your support.
as you said, I felt his A changed quickly this week, my intuition his A is at least 4.5 now. he was calm, happy, good mood all day, during night , never OT cry . if I was not in his room , I cann't even know his NW, he was happy , chatted during Nw, and he was happy after got up, just like no NW exsited.
one more question about short /long, yesterday I woke him up at 6:25(NW 3~4；00) ,at 8:45, 15mins nap, 12:00 noon nap, no signs he was OT, he played well all moring, when I put him down, he played happily over ten mins then asleep, then woke at 1hr15min after asleep, but 1hr 15mins was obviously not enought for him, he need more. Do you thinks it's OT or UT before the noon nap? he always woke at 1hr 15min, in recent three days.
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for Long/short nap
Do you think Prolonged NW could make the first nap longer though the the time for first nap is not late enough?
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Yes for the second question about long short. That's why if you want to go for this routine you should push the nap from 9/9:30 as you did before closer to 10:00/11am which is more common for his age and cap at 1:30 so he doesn't compensate too much for his nights.
Re short long routine, I would be tempted to say UT. If you have the same routine for couple of days now I would put him down earlier or later and just see. So put him down ie 12:15 and see if he will do a longer nap. If not, if the nap is even shorter go back to 12 noon nap and offer 20min in the morning not 15min.
Remember that the case with this nap being long is also how much he slept th day before in the afternoon. So if this nap is potentially UT it maybe also because he is used to 3 naps and it's time to cut the afternoon one to prolong the noon one.
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so for long/short or short/long, extra sleeping compensate for Nw should not allowed ,right?
for short/long, when I did it first few days , broken 2hrs noon nap, woke at 40mins or 1hr15mins, everyday was different, but long NW disappeared for several days, but noon nap became shorter and unstable even end with a cry aloud, still different everyday, then Ew appeared. so confused with same routine, everyday kept different, out of control, it's so strange, that's why I'd like to resign from it.
anyway, getting support here make me feel better
if it just his nature, he changed quickly, I have to accept it till he is old enough to one nap, it's not fun.
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Hi honey. I just noticed you didn't get a reply for a couple of days. I wanted to stop by to let you know I've flagged it up and hopefully you will have continued support very soon. I haven't been following your progress so it would be difficult for me to give you a response without first reading through the full thread.
Hopefully someone with more knowledge of your situation will be able to stop by soon.
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Thanks Creations for a reminder. I don't know how I missed that. Probably read the questions and wa to answer later but lost the thread from my unread!
Starting an evening with dh so will try to do it later!
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Ok! Gejun how is it going?
Re your question about compensating sleep - yes, in general some kiddos will sleep in one the morning and have longer naps only because they had NW and look for compensation. In short/long routine making first nap very short is an answer. In long/short routine pushing first nap as much as possible is an answer. Re sleeping in - I would allow anything more than 12h (counting NW). Later when the routine is set, sleeping in is much more acceptable.
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Thanks for your concern,.
he was sick several days ago, throat is inflamed and having a fever now, eat not well , and we also found his body is short of calcium severely, the doctor said short of calcium may effect his sleep also.
so I will adjust his sleep after his recovery, now he need more sleep I think.
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Oh - you are totally right. If he is unwell just do whatever is needed.
Keeping fx for both of you and hopefully very soon he will feel better!
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Hugs Gejun. 希望他早点康复。
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By the way, I noticed in last weeks, He is constantly rolling around in his sleep between 2:00 am to 3：30 , it looks like still in asleep, not wide wake,. but he always woke after this long rolling, then broken sleep till morning wake up . What do you think about the long rolling?
Hi, koe2moe, Martii说的关于sleep in 的12小时是什么意思？
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Re sleeping in - I would allow anything more than 12h (counting NW). Later when the routine is set, sleeping in is much more acceptable.
Marta, Gejun is unsure about this above. Did you mean that you would NOT allow anything more than 12h until the routine has settled? Meaning for example, 6:30-6:30, with or without NWs?
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Firstly my advice is valid only for a healthy child, please highlight it Koe.
And yes - that's my point of view. I wouldn't allow anything more than 12h night (with or without NW - no matter). So no matter how much he slept, I would wake 12h after BT. I am aware that night with NW is not as restful a the one without, but until the routine is set (1-2 weeks of predictable nights & naps), I would start the day at set time.
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Marta, ok
Gejun, 他打的漏了一個不字。现在应该清楚了？我想强调一点，生病时，让他睡吧！好了之后在调整睡眠时间。
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是的，我也觉得漏了个补字，现在就是随他睡，希望赶快好起来。
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希望他很快就好了！
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Hi Martii, I am back, LO Will be recovery soon. But short am will not suit for me because I have to out on early morning.
For long am/short pm, I don't know what will happen when trying to set up the routine in early days, so I suppose something maybe happen, hope you can give suggestions,
1/If he wake up too early, you have suggested me push the nap gradually, then he will wake up later and later, so when will BT be at first few days, how long should be a daytime? if he woke at 5:30,BT still 19:00, it will be a long day, right? Or allow more sleep than 2hours for a long day?.
For example, wake up at 5:30, first nap at 9:30, if the first nap is 1.5hours, he wake up at 11:00, then second nap around 14:00 or 14:30, if the second nap only be 30mins, he must be very tired around 5:30 or 18:00. If BT is 18:00, will he wake up 5:00 next
Morning?
2/If he had a long Nw, maybe he sleep more than 1.5 hours for first nap after 3.5 or 4hours to compensate poor night? If so, should I wake him? Or maybe after 4 hours, he will be OT, with a short nap 30mins, if so ,I need resettle him or let him sleep more at second nap?
because of NW, will his A be shorter than normal? maybe after a long am nap, he will be tired less than 3 or 3.5 hours? Should I insist on 3 or 3.5 hours A.? I can keep him awake when he feel tired, but will be it reinforce OT? How to alleviate his OT at first few days, or just wait his body adapt to the routine?
3/if he wake up early or had NWs, when will him compensate his sleep? Since day nap is limited, like 2 hours, will he compensate it with a long night sleep?
I Know things can not change in one or two days, just don’t know what will happened in early few days and how to deal with it. Maybe some of them will not happen, Thank you so much.
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1/If he wake up too early, you have suggested me push the nap gradually, then he will wake up later and later, so when will BT be at first few days, how long should be a daytime? if he woke at 5:30,BT still 19:00, it will be a long day, right? Or allow more sleep than 2hours for a long day?.
For example, wake up at 5:30, first nap at 9:30, if the first nap is 1.5hours, he wake up at 11:00, then second nap around 14:00 or 14:30, if the second nap only be 30mins, he must be very tired around 5:30 or 18:00. If BT is 18:00, will he wake up 5:00 next
Morning?
I would start to keep him in crib in the morning for every possible way, in dark room, in silence - even if he is not asleep. If it means you have to seat with him in a dark room, just do it. If you have to shhh/pat him for 1.5h do it. Have you tried feeding at 5:30 to sleep? So to get rid of that habit of EWU. I would keep sleep a day of max 2:15 frankly speaking to reset his body. BT 7pm but not even a minute later. Start first nap at 10pm if you plan to let him sleep as much as he wants. Then push and I would probably push in 30min increments if you think you can handle OT wakings during the nap. If you are afraid of OT and him not sleeping well, do it slower. The schedule will vary probably in first days as his first nap will have different length. I would do a second nap at 2/2:30pm if the first nap was short like 45min-1h and even at 3/3:30 if first nap was 1:30. I would push first nap until you have a decent nap and reasonable WU in the morning. It probably will be around 11:00.
2/If he had a long Nw, maybe he sleep more than 1.5 hours for first nap after 3.5 or 4hours to compensate poor night? If so, should I wake him? Or maybe after 4 hours, he will be OT, with a short nap 30mins, if so ,I need resettle him or let him sleep more at second nap?
because of NW, will his A be shorter than normal? maybe after a long am nap, he will be tired less than 3 or 3.5 hours? Should I insist on 3 or 3.5 hours A.? I can keep him awake when he feel tired, but will be it reinforce OT? How to alleviate his OT at first few days, or just wait his body adapt to the routine?
I would also wake after 1.5h as I said from the first nap and allow 45-1h in the afternoon rather than going for 2h in the morning so not to let him catch up for lost sleep in the morning. Yes, his A will be shorter in general after nights with NW, but I would try to ride it out. If he is more tired let him sleep slightly more on second nap.
3/if he wake up early or had NWs, when will him compensate his sleep? Since day nap is limited, like 2 hours, will he compensate it with a long night sleep?
HE should and that's our aim. He may sleep slightly longer like 2-2.5h a day but make sure his is catching up on a second nap rather than first one and that overall day sleep is not impacting ie BT being at 7pm.
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I am ashamed to say that no much improvement for LO sleep. He is 10 month now.
I tried long am and short am for weeks, the first A from 3.5h to 4.5h, I keep the first nap around 1.5h, the second 30mins around, if BT is 19:00, he still wake at around 3:00,sometimes NW short as 1h,some long as 3h.
Whatever he sleep in day, he wake 8hs after his BT, so I thought he may sick, but doctor said he is healthy. They just suggest put off his BT.
I thought he must be massive OT for long time, maybe dyssomnia now?
The reasons I think he is massive OT are: long nw happen late night, not like a cot party,
Sometimes he wake, then quiet, if nw longer than 1.5h,he will cry, but not loudly, seems like SA, I try to rock him to sleep, feed water, but no use, when I rock him, he push me. He want to back to his bed. He rolled over in the cot long time, finally fall asleep.
In day , even after a 1.5 or 2h nap, he may be asleep in car 2.5 or 3h later, so he never refuse another long nap after a 1.5 or 2h nap. Also I needn’t cut his afternoon nap since it will not effect his BT.
I even try let him sleep as he want in day time with around 3.5h same result.
I only got seldom STTn with very busy day to hospital, he had no chance to sleep long in car or pram, three 20~30mins cat nap, he must be very tired.
He is teething, but I think it’s not the reason, teething is also strange, canine teeth first .
His mood is ok, in daytime, he play well independent, watching TV, smile, crawling, standing, not too excited, everyone think he is a good temper boy. What an OT baby looks like?
Yesterday, he woke up naturally at 7:00 (BT19:30, Last nap was too late, nw 3:00~4:00 ) , first nap from 10:30, 2hrs, second nap 3hrs later, 45mins, BT 19:00, stired at2:15,then quiet, wake at 3:15, fall asleep at 6:00, wake naturally 7:30.
I know he sleep in but cann’t wake only 30mins after he was asleep.
If he is massive OT, is there any way to repair? I don’t dare to a short am and long pm which worked for us before, if his afternoon nap was ideal, no chance to let him sleep more in day, and I found Ebt didn’t work, just make his NW early too.