BabyWhispererForums.com
ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: Anika920 on May 01, 2015, 20:17:32 pm
-
15w old DS. I had him on a 2.5-3h easy when he was just a few weeks old and he stopped gaining, so I threw out the routine. Now that he's older I have been still trying to follow sleep cues, but feed on demand. His sleep has never been good, but it's atrocious now. Naps anywhere from 10m-3h I am just trying to let him get sleep where he can because I swear he HATES it. He has never really slept well. Nights start with about 2.75h and dwindle to 1.25h/45/30m it's absolutely exhausting and I can't handle it anymore. It seemed on demand doesn't work and the schedule got him some sleep until all of a sudden I had an unhappy baby. He is still swaddled for naps and at night. He cries as soon as he is swaddled or as soon as I sit to help him get drowsy. I have been able to get him to drift off in his bed before but it's so hard. Often times he cries as soon as I lay him down and shh/pat doesn't seem to work, so I pick him up and calm him and try again. He jumps a lot and even after self settling will wake up crying after only a few mins. I try to keep my hand on him, but it's very hit or miss. Please help.
He also went through a period we thought reflux was bothering him, but the meds did not seem to help and he's a pretty happy frequent spitter.
He seems to want to wake around 7a. We've been trying to do bedtime routine starting around 7p.
-
Honey, could you help me out with your routine in EASY format, please?
Have you seen this?
Starting EASY - all you need to know and more!
-
I haven't been documenting since I e been mostly following cues, but here's basically what today looked like. As I mentioned it's a very modified EASY. I'm concerned about milk transfer and him not gaining so I feed him more frequently. My mom and I had a misunderstanding and typically he doesn't get a bottle but I will feed him sometimes about an hour after he has eaten if he seems fussy, had excessive spit up or is doing hunger cues.
E 715
S 830/915 (start of S versus when he actually slept)
E 1040
E 1220 (bottle)
S 1240/1 (extended nap)
E 230
E 420
S 440
E 515
Bath 7 (planned for this evening. Bath is typically around 7)
E 730
S 8
I don't dream feed but he tends to wake about every 2-3 hours at night the first 2 night wakes and then it gets less and less lengthy.
Hope that helps and thanks for your response.
-
I'm sorry, hun but I can't make out your routine. If you don't mind, I suggest you just start all over. Keep a sleep log of your day and note down the EASY routine you are aiming for and stick to it consistently. It is fine if you are modifying it to fit in feeds. TBH, I never followed the E portion of it. I would feed DD as soon as I felt she wanted it apart from on WU from naps and night sleep. The main thing though is to stick to a consistent A time, keep one eye on his cues and the other on the clock and separate eating & sleeping. Keep A times very low key as they get over tired & over stimulated so easily. You mention him crying as soon as you swaddle him -- could it be that he is already over tired at that point? That would also explain why he is so 'jumpy'. They tend to jolt a lot more when OT. It helps to keep the room cool & dark and also have white noise on.
At this age, you would need to aim for 3 naps of 1.5 -2 hours + a 30-45 minute CN before bed. It is best to aim for a 12 hour day and have a fixed BT & WU time in the morning to set their body clocks. So if morning WU is 7, aim for 7 as BT. If he wakes at 7, he should be asleep for nap 1 by 8.30, so you can start winding down 20 minutes earlier but only PD 5-10 minutes before as if he is too UT, he will fight it and quickly get OT. Do you follow the 4S wind down routine? It really works great to calm them down & get them drowsy. As soon as I would see DD's eyes closing, I would gently lay her down and leave the room, giving her space to settle herself. I would go back in only if the cries escalated. It will take time, hun but if you are consistent, he will get the idea. We also went through a phase where DD would cry a lot as soon as we went into her room, so we would wind down in her room with a small light on and do finger rhymes and read books.
WRT feeds, cluster feeding in the evening worked great for us. I would feed before CN and then split the BT feed around bath. You should try a dream feed too. It worked great for us:)
-
He is so inconsistent it is hard for me to have consistency with him. During the night he starts to wake up every 1.5 hours and I am up with him for another 30-40m resettling. I am absolutely drained and exhausted after 15 weeks of this. So today for his first nap he may have been over tired he woke up a little after 6 and I nursed him because it was going on almost 5 hours since he had eaten (due to frequent inconsistent night wakings) I've tried to extend feeds in the night since usually if he is waking it can be only about 2 hours since he last ate, and he won't actually be nursing. However, he got a little fussy around 845a right before I was planning on starting WD. I sang to him and he swaddled well but as soon as o started 4S he started fighting me. I use WN to help settle him and it does stay on while he sleeps, but I use a loud WN to settle as it seems to really work well and it does not stay that loud when he sleeps.
I also got in a bad habit of cosleeping since I was tired and thinking he is waking frequently now because of it since after 2-3 NW I was just being him into bed because I am falling asleep nursing him.
So you are saying to have night time and bedtime at the same times not BT routine? So I need to have him trying to go down by 7 not by 8 if 7 is first wake up time? If that's the case I'd like going for 8 or 9 and I'll let this early morning wakings be part of NW still.
His first nap he woke 30m into it and took about 10m to resettle. He is sleeping again now. Is that where I confused you with my S times being 2? I typically try and extend his naps as he seems to wake early from most of them. Every now and then it's like we get it right and he will get a good 2 hour or so nap.
So as to my original question of how/where to start should I just start slowly 10m or so be lengthening and shortening where I can/need to get him on the schedule I want?
I don't dream feed because when I was it never seemed to go well for us, but I may try it again since I am starting fresh.
What do you mean by keeping sleep and eat times separate? By at least 15m? Thanks for all your help.
-
I re-read and think I misunderstood the first time. You are saying to not do E if he wakes early from naps and NW? As far as A times he seems to be going through a transition where he's not showing sleepy cues as early as he was so I'm shooting for about a 3-3.5 EASY.
-
He is so inconsistent it is hard for me to have consistency with him.
Well, he is a baby, hun:p Whatever approach you choose - be consistent whether it is co-sleeping or APOPing to sleep or in sleep training. It is unfair to change the game on them and babies do thrive with routines and predictability. With EASY, the simple rule is to separate feeds & sleep with small activities like changing his diaper, looking out of the window, go for a short walk and so on. Try to keep any overly stimulating activities at the beginning of the A time.
I know how tiring these NWs can be. My DD's birth weight was very low and I had to feed her every 2 hours around the clock. It was exhausting. But as she started gaining, she started going longer stretches at night. One thing that I am sure helped us was bottle feeding with expressed milk at night feeds. I would get up and pump while DH would give her the bottle.
I also got in a bad habit of cosleeping since I was tired and thinking he is waking frequently now because of it since after 2-3 NW I was just being him into bed because I am falling asleep nursing him.
You did what you needed to do for both of you to get some rest. Don't worry about it. Plenty of mums co-sleep for this exact same reason.
So you are saying to have night time and bedtime at the same times not BT routine?
I don't understand what you mean here, hun.
So I need to have him trying to go down by 7 not by 8 if 7 is first wake up time? If that's the case I'd like going for 8 or 9 and I'll let this early morning wakings be part of NW still.
Well, if wishes were horses, right:p Once he is caught up on sleep, you can try moving towards an 8-8 routine or 9-9 - whatever you wish. I don't know how well that would work though as I think 7ish - 7ish is their natural cycle. The best bedtime is between 7 & 8 pm because babies and children in general are naturally early risers. But for now, if he is waking at 7 everyday, sticking to a bedtime of 7 or 7.30 would be best. You should start waking him up at a fixed time everyday and putting him to sleep at a fixed time.
So as to my original question of how/where to start should I just start slowly 10m or so be lengthening and shortening where I can/need to get him on the schedule I want?
In the link about starting EASY, there are age-wise sample routines. Maybe you could go through them and pick a routine that you feel will work for you? The routine at this age is pretty basic. You will have to keep working on extending naps as he is still learning to transition.
What do you mean by keeping sleep and eat times separate? By at least 15m? Thanks for all your help
I mean, try to avoid him falling asleep while nursing or nursing too close to a nap. Typically you can nurse on wake -up and then move on to A time and then PD for a nap.
Hope that helps:)
ETA: Regarding the E, what I meant was, even when not spacing the feeds according to what Tracy suggests, you could have consistent times to feed him. So with my DD, I would feed when she woke in the morning, on wake up from naps & finally I would split the bedtime feed around bath.
Regarding the A time, I would suggest you stick to a 3 hour EASY for now. It is fine to go by the clock instead of waiting for his cues. I found with my DD that if I waited till the first yawn, I was already too late. Once you get this routine working, we can reassess if more A is needed. I wouldn't think so though:)
-
I may be missing some of his cues or like you said when he shows his first yawn he's already OT. DH is better at distinguishing far off stare than I am. So I think I will be going by the clock a bit more. DH is gone from 7-7 most days that's why I was hoping for 8.
What I was trying to ask regarding wind down VS BT. is that wind down should not start at 7 if WU was 7, but rather WD and BT routine should be complete and S should be at 7p not later like I had been doing. So day starts E 7a and ends S 7p where I was doing BT Routine at 7 when DH gets home so he could see him and aiming for S 7:30/8
-
Yes, exactly. You aim for him to be in his bed and asleep by 7. Wind down is a very short thing, hun. So after I nurse DD, it is into sleepsack/ swaddle, sing song & lay her down in her crib. Just takes a minute.
For naps, we walk around the house for 10-15 minutes singing/humming and then go into her room 5 minutes in advance of the time we want her asleep. Into sleep sack - bye to the house- put on music box - kiss and into bed.
Simple & sweet:)
-
So my LO has a hard time with self soothing. I'm sure it's due to AP. but if I just lay him down before I want him asleep he's awake and starts crying. I've done shh pat in bed and it work sometimes but yesterday we missed the whole CN and oftentimes it takes him many minutes to settle in his bed.
What am I doing wrong in the 4S area? I use that for my WD for naps and if he's not upset when I swaddle as soon as I sit he's fighting me. He really resists naps and even at night during early morning night wakes he's wanting to hang out and play. He will be awake sometimes for an hour + in the middle of the night. It's part of the reason I'm so exhausted.
What I've started doing is walking him up to the room sing twinkle twinkle (before swaddle to get him accustomed to a cue) and then I sit (sometimes we rock or I pat especially if he is worked up and fighting) unfortunately often times when we stop rocking he starts wiggling around again. :(
I've decided what may work best for the first few days is to just get him on a 3 hour routine working on getting him napping and waking at particular times then getting rid of AP slowly. I know it's going to be difficult. But hopefully if I can get him good sleep then he won't be OT and the AP will be smoother transitions.
-
Could you try standing instead of sitting? My DD would cry & fuss the moment I sat down but calm right down if I stood up. Worth a try, right?
-
He still fusses if we stand. My poor LO. I think he falls into the grumpy baby category, but he's the happiest little grumpy baby around. He smiles when he first wakes and then gets grumpy. He's like mom, hates to sleep and then hates to wake up. :o :o
I have another question for you about the naps you said 1.5-2h is it recommended to let them sleep longer or should WU time be consistent? I let him sleep longer yesterday and then noticed BT was skewed and later by almost an hour.
Thanks for all your help!
-
Tracy said not to let a nap go longer than 2.5 hours otherwise it might lead to an issue with the next nap, with BT or with too much day sleep over all. If your last nap of the day is too long, BT will definitely get pushed. That's why a quick catnap is recommended in the evening
-
What I am trying to figure out is if we are trying for WU and BT to be 12h. how does a 2 or even a 2.5 hour nap filter in?
for example would it be cutting into the A time at the end or pushing the E time later. I use E to signify WU times from naps or NT.
So would it look more like
E 7
S 8
E 10
OR
E 7
S 830
E 1030
The second option is how we got pushed back. Yesterday we let DS sleep for about Nap 1: 1.75h and Nap 2: 2h. We were looking for a later BT. One we let him wake on his own the other we woke him up at the 2hr nap. We started with First WU at 6:30 and BT at 8. We only missed the CN due to shh/pat routine. I hadn't realized I had been trying to get him down that long until DH came in and said it was Bath time.
-
E will get pushed around a bit, which reminds me, I used to wake DD up so that feeds were not too far apart. It won't be cutting into A time as A includes feed time- it is eyes open to eyes closed. You'll have to help me out with that's day routine before I can comment on it:)
-
Alright I got some documentation. I am concerned about DS not gaining weight and noticed if I am on a 3 hr EASY 12hr day that only provides 5 Es? That is definitely not enough for my LO. What am I missing? I plan on feeding him when he wakes up and about an hour afterwards since we are EBF I am very concerned that it will lower my supply and we will end up with failure to thrive. I hope you can decipher my EASY this time ;D
5/3
E 6:30
S 9:00 (woke up after 30m shh pat in bed about 10/15m) woke up on his own
E 10:40
S 12:15 (woke up after 30m shh pat in bed about 10/15m) I woke him
E 2:15/3:10 (here is one of the extra feeds I mentioned)
S 3:45
E 5:25
S missed CN
Bath
E 7:45
S 8:30-12:00
* No DF woke after 3.5 hours for first feed. I brought him to bed and he woke me around 2:30 I latched him and he didnt wake me until 5. (2.5h)
5/4
E 7:40
S 8:53 (started WD too early took 25m) (woke up after 30m shh pat in bed about 20m)
E 10:50
S 12:20 (woke after 20m 10m shh/pat)
E 2:00
S 3:30 (woke up after 40 and 50m shh/pat twice both for 5 mins)
E 5:15 and 6:05
S 7:05 (hard to settle started at 6:45 for CN)
E 7:35
Bath
E: 8:15
S 8:45
* woke up at 10 (1.25hr was not planning on DF but fed him since he woke)
S 10:30-11:45 (1.25h)
S 12:15-1:05 (50m)
brought him into bed to cosleep. He typically is restless when he cosleeps and I am positive he is not getting enough sleep. He seems to go through whole wake cycles starting anywhere from about 3am on depending on when he wakes in the middle of the night. When we are persistent and put him back to bed in his bed he wakes up within anywhere from 10m-1.25hrs typically.
This morning I had DH take him and try to put him in his bed before morning. He was playing and awakw in bed from 5:30 until around 6:45 and woke up at 7:15 when I went ahead and started our day.
-
I am very concerned that it will lower my supply and we will end up with failure to thrive.
It's that serious? What has the doctor said about this? Do you have access to a LC - is DS nursing properly and for long enough? DD was born with a low birth weight & this was a big worry for me for a long time. It didn't help that she would take AGES to nurse also. It is important to let him stay on the breast long enough to get to calorie rich milk which comes later. In these early days, I feel that it is good to nurse regularly, and re-nursing a half hour or an hour later means he would be getting more of hind milk.
Day 1
E 5:25
S missed CN
Bath
E 7:45
S 8:30-12:00
In this instance, if it were me, I would have PD for bed at 7. With the nap ending at 5.25, there is no need for a CN but bedtime was too late. From what I have read and experienced, babies usually do one long stretch at night - but here he is waking quite soon after bed, which was probably due to over tiredness rather than hunger, although I'm sure he was happy to eat:)
Day 2
E 5:15 and 6:05
S 7:05 (hard to settle started at 6:45 for CN)
E 7:35
Bath
E: 8:15
S 8:45
* woke up at 10 (1.25hr was not planning on DF but fed him since he woke)
S 10:30-11:45 (1.25h)
S 12:15-1:05 (50m)
Same here again, honey. You don't need a CN when nap 3 is ending this late. I understand that you are doing it because you want bedtime to be later but then he is OT anyway as the day is too long, ys? This is why he is waking so much at night. I really feel that you should try for a consistent 7pm bedtime. Then you can slowly try and move your day back by 10-15 minutes. But for now, this is hurting more than it is helping.
-
Okay so if he is getting longer days then the catnap is cut. That makes more sense. What are your thoughts on the short naps I am having to extend every time?
I have seen LC I got to a group on Tuesday where I can do weighed feeds. He transfers milk okay. He used to be much more efficient. I used to have OS but it is smaller now. I had an LC recommend giving him larger bottles at night to help him sleep. We were off routine and because she scared me about him being hungry and from last week he either didn't gain or lost went from 12.13 to 12.10 (I stated cloth diaper and can't remember if he was wearing one last week which would definitely add weight) he has been pulling off the breast early and seems hungry still, but not completely interested in nursing. Dr says to lengthen his feeds so that he gets a good full feeding. LC sat on demand. On demand definitely seems to help him better with weight gain, as when he was only allowed to nurse every 2.5-3h is when I had a plateau in weight gain my first time doing BW. It's almost like on demand or schedule doesn't seem to work :-[
I will try to get him into bed by 6:30 tonight as that's when he WU. Giving him a larger bottle last night and even giving him more oz expressed breastmilk did not help. He still woke after 1.5h but BT was late because I was going through emotional stuff thinking my supply has dropped and he's not sleeping due to hunger. At group he got about 2.5oz so as you can see 5 feeds would only yield half what he needs. He spits up a lot IMO I know what they say it looks like more, but he'll still spit up after over an hour sometimes. Dr isn't concerned too much about his weight. Was planning on having him assessed for tongue tie but DH doesn't want to do it and it would be 100% out of pocket.
-
What are your thoughts on the short naps I am having to extend every time?
I'd say they are so very normal at that age. It is mostly developmental and will get better as he gets older. It is great that you are able to extend the naps. Hopefully soon he will be able to transition himself.
short naps at 3-4 months? Take it easy, it will get better!
If you are worried about weight gain, follow his cues & your gut instinct and nurse him on demand. Following BW doesn't mean you have to space out the feeds, hun. Just follow a routine of feeding, playing and then putting baby down for a nap. How would you go about 'lengthening feeds' ?You nurse for as long as he eats, right? And offer often. I wasn't ever able to keep DD on for longer than she wanted. Of course she took 40 minutes for each feed till 4 months. What I was advised by my doctor was to nurse every 2 hours. So I would nurse her for however long it took. Then she would take a 2 hour nap and then I would wake her up and nurse her again. Day and night. Until her weight normalised. In fact we kept waking her up for much longer than necessary until the doctor told us to please let her sleep.Then we stopped waking her and fed when she WU. I always offered bottles of expressed milk at night though because she took so long to nurse and so that DH could help me. I would wake up and pump at the same time. We also were told to burp her for 10 whole minutes, and we religiously did this. I think just keeping her up for that long after a feed helped to reduce spit up. Burping regularly during the feed also helps. Stress is not good for you, your baby or your supply, sweetie. Just relax and nurse him whenever and for however long. Consider pumping and offering in a bottle for night feeds. Isn't it more stressful to keep weighing before and after feeds?
Lastly, stick to a fixed BT. What time did the last nap end? If 5 or later, then 7 might be better
-
I apologize. I thought I had replied to your last post and found a shrunken window with my half reply. DS must have woken up when I was typing it.
I have been nursing him just about every hour he is awake. I have also noticed that it seems to help him sleep better and maybe even longer with a fuller tummy. I go to a group lead by a lactation consultant where we can do weighted feeds, so it is nice to be able to see his weight gain. DS seems to be a pretty impatient eater so he will only nurse as long as milk is very readily available. I can feel letdowns and while he use to stimulate 2 or more I only ever feel the initial one. And sometimes when it has been close to the last time he nursed he gets really mad at me that it is taking a whole minute for the milk to letdown.
I have decided to move onto a 4hr EASY as DS is now about 4.5 months (19w). I am super excited to be able to keep him up a little longer. It is hard staying on a 1.5hr A time. Unfortunately, the longer A times and S times means that we will likely be missing going to the group I mentioned above. But feeding on demand will ensure he gets enough milk during the day and keep my supply up. I am already artificially helping him with galactogogues and pumping.
-
It's normal to not feel the later letdowns. You know, DS being impatient reminded me of an issue I had with my DD. I had a lot of trouble with her bedtime feed at around 5/6 months. For some reason, I started having an issue with a slow/no letdown. She would get SO impatient waiting and I would get stressed and worried and that wouldn't help matters. I couldn't understand it since I never had that issue before. Then another BW here advised me to try spacing out my feeds and see if it made a difference. And it totally did! The thing was - DD was simply not hungry! She wanted to hang around and comfort nurse but she wasn't hungry enough to work for it, ys?
Anyway, I'm glad that things are better. Week 19 is the storm, so be prepared for some iffy days:)
-
Thank you. We just had our 4mo appointment today and our ped said I HAVE to make him wait at least 2.5hrs between feeds. It is nerve racking for me, but he assured me that he will actually have poorer weight gain feeding so often. There is a room I can take him into and do weighted feeds. I did it after our Dr appt and he took in 4oz. Most I've ever seen him get! So sounds like spacing feedings out might just be what I need to do. And yes I have the same issue and get stressed out when DS is mad at me and not getting milk like he wants. It is very stressful for me. Also the Dr said that at his 6mo appointment if he is still not self soothing he wants me to do some tough love and CIO. As you know I am doing BW so to avoid CIO. So here's hoping that more full feeds will get him to sleep longer! :D
-
but he assured me that he will actually have poorer weight gain feeding so often.
Yes hun, Tracy also talks about this. Basically they get into the habit of taking in just enough to take the edge off, rather than a full feed. So they keep getting hungry pretty quickly.
Also the Dr said that at his 6mo appointment if he is still not self soothing he wants me to do some tough love and CIO. As you know I am doing BW so to avoid CIO. So here's hoping that more full feeds will get him to sleep longer!
Grrr at your doctor! So easy to give bad advice. So glad that you have chosen a gentler route. CIO breaks the bonds of trust between the LO and the caregiver and is so stressful for the baby. Don't worry hun, we're here to support you and help you through this in a way that will be comfortable for you and your LO. At the end of the day, he is learning a new skill - sleep - and this is important for his entire life. Have you seen this?
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!
Kara & Alexandra's Story
If you are desperate to let your lo "cry it out"...read this first
-
I have often wondered what the heck happens after CIO. I try to be a pretty logical person and it just doesn't make sense to me that letting a baby cry all of a sudden this miracle happens and they no longer cry and just go off peacefully to sleep forever. It makes much more sense that it is what you have to do whenever they won't sleep. And the cries of a baby tear at a mom's heart so letting them cry alone goes against our maternal instincts. Thanks for sharing those with me. I have a ped in the family and I asked her when DS was about 2 months if an infant could just HATE sleep (as unfortunately he has been a poor sleeper since March!) her short response. Yep, put him in his crib and get ear plugs. Really!?! A baby who is 2 months!!!
-
Hugs :)
How are things now? Sorry for the delayed response. We're on holiday at the moment
-
About 2 weeks ago my LO had what is called a choking episode in his cot. He had been fussing for about 15m before bed and then stopped and was just wide awake rolling around in bed for about 45m. Typically we don't leave him that long and we try to help him get more drowsy, but we figured we might be interfering with self soothing. Once he finally fell asleep he was awake after 35m he let out a quick cry and went back to sleep. Moments later I noticed him looking like he was in distress in the monitor. When I ran into his room and flipped on the lights he has a small spit up next to him and a ton of saliva in his mouth and was having difficulty breathing. We called 911 and went to the ER but thankfully we were able to get him crying and breathing before help arrived. It was absolutely traumatizing. This was after a day where he took in (for him) large feedings but at the expense of us nursing for 30m minimum. I had rented a scale and he was going every 4 hours between feeds with 2h wake times and 2h naps. So I was so curious to see how the night would go and it was a disaster! :'(
Ever since then I have been hypersensitive and much more cautious with my LO. He has been cosleeping a lot more and I fear that because of that he has fallen back into bad habits and going down for naps and BT have been hard again. Dr said that the choking episode is from reflux and he is back on meds again. I had thought that he had gotten over the pain from reflux as he had been a pretty happy little man for a while. He still spits up but he seems to be a happy spitter. I am just at such a loss now. He is already down for his first nap. He woke at 7:30a (we started cosleeping at 12:40a) and started showing sleepy cues after only being awake for about an hour so I went to put him down and he cried and battled me for about 25m. He still cries 9.8 out of 10 times when we even just take him into his room. And if it's not that quickly it happens once his PJs go on. Trying to WD I have scratches on my neck and he pinches and pulls my hair. I have been following a pretty set BW routine with him since he was a few weeks old and it just doesn't seem to STAY good. We get some very successful wins, but then we regress and it is back to fighting to get him to sleep. We haven't held him to sleep since he was much younger and have been working on putting down drowsy but awake for so long now, crib calming, PU/PD and it just seems that no matter what we do he still cries most of the time before sleep and wakes up crying. :'(
-
Oh my gosh. You poor things. *hugs hugs hugs* I am so glad he is okay. What a scary experience. Is his crib mattress on an incline, hun? That really helps. For the first few months we had to even fold a thick sheet to keep Eris's head elevated. I thought it was quite dangerous but the doctor insisted we do it. I removed it as soon as she started moving though.
But hun, I think he is fighting you so much because he is probably not sleep yet. He might be tired but not ready for a nap. Sleepy cues can be quite unreliable after a while
-
Thank you. Our dr. talked about elevating the cot but he is rolling around a ton and he would probably just end up at the bottom of his crib. I try to keep him on his belly now. Dr put him back on reflux meds. But I never thought that they helped much the first time and had wondered if the side effects were actually messing with his sleep. I have been bad with documenting and we have gotten off schedule, but the night of the choking episode he didn't fall asleep until 8:30pm. So we had tried for a proper bedtime and about a 12 hour day. I haven't been documenting so much but have been trying to stay pretty close to a 4hr EASY with on demand nursing still. Some days I just can't hold him off because he is nursing poorly. Distracted, bobing on and off and showing interest for a few seconds and then losing it again. It's getting exhausting and making me want to stop BF, but at the same time I want to continue because I am stubborn and feel this is what is best for him and I have the supply and equipment my babe just won't take well. I found with the scale he basically takes in only a small amount per feed and is only probably averaging around 20oz during the day so he needs those NW feedings. I am not sure if he has a tongue tie as he seems to nurse well if he wants to nurse, if he does I think it would be minor, but is effecting him somewhat.
Since the incident his naps have shortened and his first NW shortened. I was also sick and he could have been sick as well, but since he coughs and sneezes often it's hard to tell. He has been congested, but reflux can cause that they say.
Today he has done a bit better but only awake for 1.5h (I tried to put him down too early for first nap and so when he finally went down it was at the 1.5h mark) with a 2 hour nap. We danced at his next A and he was so relaxed and acting tired so I put him down at 1.5h and he didn't fight me much at all, but cried when I put his PJs on. He has been asleep now for 45m but seems like lately if he is up for 2h he is napping for about 1.25-1.5h. He/we were doing so good I thought until that stupid choking episode. I am not sure if it is better to keep him up for the 2h or let him get longer naps? Since he wakes so much at night I am not positive that he isn't just really OT throughout the day.
Saturday night I couldn't get him to take a late afternoon nap even cosleeping so we tried to put him down earlier and the night was horrible with him waking about every hour!
-
Really sounds like you are having a rough time. Hugs :-* Have you posted on the reflux board? Maybe there might be some helpful suggestions there too? How old is he now, hun?
-
I did post on the reflux boards. I am having a hard time. It is very stressful on me. I know my DS loves me but he can be so hard. And I haven't had a decent nights sleep in 6mos, he is 5m 2w now. He is overall doing well, meeting milestones and cute as can be, but he is very needy and fusses easily. I have decided to work on my milk supply again so I have been pumping and giving him bottles as well as nursing and this has still not made a great impact in his sleep. I'm sure it is because I have been cosleeping and he nurses on demand at night so I have become a human pacifier. I told DH this is my last attempt at pumping up my milk and trying to get him to nurse well. I just can't do it anymore. This is the 3rd time (at least) that I have worked on pumping my supply up for him. He is IMO a lazy eater. I have an OALD and he learned to just get the easy milk and not work harder for the hind milk. He is beating me up! I will see a lactation consultant again on Thursday. We'll see! Thank you for all your support! :D
-
{{{hugs}} Anika. I hope you get some clarity soon WRT nursing. It shouldn't be stressing you out so much. I had a lazy nurser too btw (hours upon hours upon hours) I watched a lot of shows. Lol. Are you still weighing him after every feed? I guess independent sleep is on hold with the co-sleeping. Never mind. Whenever you are ready or wanting to help him sleep on his own, we are here to support you. :-*
-
He's not so much lazy as it takes him a long time. He only wants the let down and loses interest right away so it's like wrestling with him to try and get him to take in a full feeding. Part of the reason why cosleep He's not so much lazy as it takes him a long time. He only wants the let down and loses interest right away so it's like wrestling with him to try and get him to take in a full feeding. Part of the reason why I cosleep is he gains weight so much better because he will nurse more fully it seems like at night, and getting up out of bed 6+ times a night gets really old this way I could just stay in bed with an awake child. Going back to the doctor and seeing about different reflux meds hopefully that will help him to sleep better. Having a baby wake 4xs in 3h is just not normal. I hope!!!
-
Did you get any clarity regarding the reflux meds?
-
Took my LO to a GI and he thought he should have a swallow study to make sure his anatomy is normal. He said choking episodes in infants five months old and the amount of reflux he still having at almost 6 months is too much and he just wants to rule out any abnormalities. He also told me that all of his night wakings our behavioral and not reflux related >:( ???
-
I don't know much about reflux, to be frank but if it is serious enough to warrant these tests, then I'm sure it isn't easy for your LO to sleep. Did you post on the reflux board, hun?
-
Oh sweetie, sleep issues are sometimes one of the few signs of a baby having uncontrolled reflux - they can be happy in the day as they're distracted and often more upright but lie them down flat so the acid can burn their oesophagus and that causes pain and difficulty sleeping. Getting the right meds will hopefully make a difference for him. I think you just have to do whatever you can to help him and you sleep until that's sorted out.
WRT raising the head of the bed and your worries re: rolling - I just wonder if he's wriggling and rolling trying to get comfortable and maybe if raising the bed a bit made a difference, he might be a bit more still when sleeping? FWIW, I think the reflux is probably more severe than raising the bed will fix but it could help.
Hugs xx you must be exhausted.
-
Hiya - we have spoken before - so just adding a few thoughts for you :-* :-*.
Cot elevation can be very helpful. My DS has a cot wedge but he is also in a sleep pod thing so that he doesn't roll around. I find when he is well he sleeps quite peacefully, and when he is reflex he can be really fidgety. You can also use some types of sleepy positioners. Left lateral is a good reflux sleep position as well.
Secondly I wonder if he is reverse cycling his feeds a bit? So full up from the nights that he is less interested in the day iyswim? It is a pretty common problem with a BF refluxed because they do tend to feed better at night, and do tend to end up nursing for comfort as well. I have BF 2 refluxers, but my current one is bottle fed, and I find that I can settle him elevated on my chest. I am pretty sure that would never have worked for one of my BF babies - but my DS2 does only tend to want a feed when genuinely hungry. That said - it is pretty recent that he is getting to 4hrly feeds at 7 months now.
If your LO brings up a lot of milk (mine does as well - he literally pukes from the end of one feed to the start of the next one 4 hrs later) have you considered a type of thickener to see if that would help? Or indeed starting solids at this age as it has a similar effect. Again it could help with the choking episodes.
I do find that medical approaches can be quite different between the UK and US. I'm seeing my paed next week and I am almost certain that he will tell me to carry on yk?
CIO is not the answer, but I do think it is pretty likely you have a feed to sleep association at this point :-\ :-\.
My DS drinks lower volume feeds - he has about 5oz - I have often felt frustrated and got him to take a 7 oz bottle at bedtime. It never helps, just makes it worse and makes him restless as he refluxes more.
Stretching feeds to 2.5 hrs really shouldn't be a major issue at this age though (in that he should be able to do 2.5hr feedings). Do you think it will be hard to get there??
It really is a big old reflux/ breast feeding pickle isn't it?? I have been there twice before and it isn't nice, I know. With my DS1 I found he was better being bottle fed, and we slowly moved over as he approached 7 months. I did get past it the second time when I was clearer that it was reflux and had her on proper meds from early on.
-
My LO is still fighting sleep. Even rocking or anything having to do with nap time. Bedtime is a little better because DH does it and gives him a bottle. He settles better. He cries some, but I can't seem to do anything to not get him to cry ??? :-[ I had a lactation consultant come over today and she confirmed he has both a lip and tongue tie. I think this is causing him a lot of his/our issues. I definitely think we have a feeding to sleep issue, but Ive done what I've had to in order to keep my LO healthy. Other than the obvious of switching to formula. I have been pumping and giving him some bottles to try and get him more milk. My LO is such a tornado. He is such a hyper babe I just think he hates to sleep because there is so much going on he'd rather do that then nap/sleep. The other day he feel asleep in my arms with me just sitting there holding him. That has NEVER happened. He had to of just been exhausted. I am getting so burnt out listening to his cries at nap time that I just pull him out of his room and try again later.
-
Some babies just want to be in the thick of it. DS slept swaddled on the floor on the lounge room for a while because he screamed when we went to his bedroom but would go to sleep fine on the floor ::)
Feeding must be such an effort for him and when it causes him pain too, its going to be difficult for you both :( FWIW, I don't know that switching to bottles makes much of a difference with tongue and lip ties but I could be wrong. Can you get them divided or is he past that now? Does he seem to take the bottles better?
My LO is such a tornado. He is such a hyper babe I just think he hates to sleep because there is so much going on he'd rather do that then nap/sleep.
What's his routine and age? Just wonder if he's UT or needs longer A times or is maybe overstimulated at nap time and having a hard time with the transition from place to place, activity to activity? I'm sure taking a transition of location out of the pre-nap equation is part of why DS napped so well on the floor. He was in the same surroundings and with the same people around. I found if I had the TV on for company during the day, he wouldn't nap - too overstimulating for him. I had a selection of 4-5 different nap wind downs which were really just 5-10min somewhere doing something relaxing, always with me holding him as he needs physical contact to get the energy out and relax - standing on the deck chatting about trees, leaves, etc.; sitting on the steps talking about people on the other side of the world and saying goodbye to the sun; talking about what we'd do after his nap when he had more energy... He'll probably also be picking up on your own anxiety about the naps now, its hard to stay calm when you *know* there will be crying but it might be worth just letting up the pressure on yourself and him to stick to set times for a couple of days and see if a routine/pattern emerges.
-
There are Dr who will revise the ties in an older babe. He seems to take bottles okay. There are other issues that *could come about with the ties that I'm seriously considering having them clipped. I've had a hard time getting his ped to give us a proper referral so that insurance will cover the procedure. It is very frustrating. And part of the reason it's taken so long! It was suggested at 8w he had ties. He's almost 6m now! I don't know that he'd nap where we are. He still seems to be on about a 2h A time. He's started sleeping longer at night and naps have greatly shortened. He use to wake multiple times a night and have 2 2h naps where now he takes catnaps. I'm so sensitive to his weight I don't dare feed on a schedule. And now that I know he has ties, it's not good for my supply or my babe. I'm working on pumping now and he gets some bottles. Especially at night before BT. He doesn't have much of a daytime routine other than he wakes between 7/8 and bedtime is around 8/830. I know this is not a typical BW routine in the least. I have tried to get it to work for him but it just doesn't seem to. I think mostly because of his inability to really transfer milk way and stay satisfied. Plus he is on a nursing schedule all his own it seems. After even a 6oz bottle of BM he'll root a short while later. And I know he can't be that hungry already! I tried starting naps with the lights on. I try to get away from rocking but I just can't handle the crying. He cries often throughout the day, he constantly wants me to hold him and I give in because if I don't he throws a fit. The little stinker has me wrapped around his fingers!
-
His A times should probably be higher than 2hr - usually 2:30-2:45 min by 6 months, with some at 3hr. Does this tiredness at 2hr coincide with the end of a feed? Extending that A time should get you some better naps if he's not waking from discomfort - these short naps, how long are they?
After even a 6oz bottle of BM he'll root a short while later
This could be the reflux or tiredness rather than hunger.
-
I'll see what happens when he's up a bit longer. he gets so grumpy but i think some of that is due to just being bored or wanting to be held. And yes they do coincide with a feed. I have tried to stretch out nursing and it has weecked my supply. I think his tongue tie is just severe enough to prevent him from nursing really well and my supply slowly falls. The GI and his ped said that waking (at night) is behavioral and not from pain. Which obviously is baffling why they would put LO on reflux meds if they don't even believe they are in pain?!?!
The naps can be as short as 22m. I consider a good nap 1-1.5h. The 6pz bottle and rooting I referred to was about 1.5h after wake up from BT.
He's doing really good at night now. Most of the time dad can lay him in bed and only short or no fussing. But naps he gets so upset and screams and cries. This has been off/on for months now. I hope that maybe extending A times will help. He was taking 2 2h naps but once he started mostly STTN that changed and naps have been horrible. About 3w now.
-
Goodness me, you're in a right pickle, aren't you :(
20min naps are typically related to overstimulation or pain... 30 min naps tend to be OT and 45min UT. Those are the rules of thumb, anyway.
The GI and his ped said that waking (at night) is behavioral and not from pain. Which obviously is baffling why they would put LO on reflux meds if they don't even believe they are in pain?!?!
This goes against anything I've ever heard/read about reflux. Keeping them upright helps where lying them down allows the acid to flow back and hurt, yk.
I wonder what happens if you work to keep him awake after the feed rather than putting him down for a nap straight after that second feed? Seems like a feed to sleep association is growing despite your best efforts (not the worst thing in the world, but inconvenient at times). Breastmilk and feeding can make LO's sleepy, that's why a lot of people feed to sleep, its easy. If you like, you could try EAEAS, so still feed as regularly as you would but keep him upright and entertained for 20-30min after that 2nd feed and see if that helps the nap length.