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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Kfro on May 05, 2015, 08:50:57 am
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Hi,
My little boy is 6 months old. Up until he was four months old he was a champion sleeper at night but his naps were awful. Then the four month regression hit us and everything was horrendous! I managed to get his naps back on track by spending a lot of time in his room and doing a modified version of ssh pat. I managed to get him doing two long naps and a cat nap and we were able to move to a four hour easy. His naps went a little wonky when I weaned the swaddle but I got him back on track. Recently we have been approaching the 3-2 transition and I have been gradually increasing his a time. We are currently at 2 hours 50 minutes (apart from his last a before bed which is usually 2 hours 40) and have managed a fair few two nap days. He is having a lot of night wakings however. The past couple of nights he has gone down easily at bedtime and has put himself to sleep within ten minutes but has then woken up three to four times within the first four hours of the night. Some of these can be settled using just my voice and some require a couple of pupd. He then sleeps a good stretch until he has his nf. Yesterday was the first day of needing a cn for quite a few days and he slept well for the first two and a half hours and then woke up every hour for three hours. He then had a good five hour stretch but woke up at four thirty and was messing about in his crib. I fed him and put him back down but fifty minutes later he was still messing about so I had to go back in to help him settle (using ssh pat). Are these wakings due to overtiredness that is inevitable during the transition and I just need to push through them? Do they mean I should reduce his a times back down? Or are they more likely to be discomfort? He has just started on solids and is also recovering from a cold so wasn't sure if these could be a factor? He is also rolling about all over the place and has just decided that he wants to sleep on his tummy (I always put him down on his back but he rolls onto his tummy before I have even closed the door to his room). He seems to move about a lot in his sleep and sometimes inadvertently rolls back onto his back and this upsets him. So you see I am very confused about what the problem is and just want to make sure that I am helping him get the sleep he needs. The maximum sleep he seems to ever get is 14 hours in 24 and I notice this is the lower end of the scale so I am worried it isn't enough.
Thank you in advance to anyone who can help x
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We are currently at 2 hours 50 minutes (apart from his last a before bed which is usually 2 hours 40) and have managed a fair few two nap days. He is having a lot of night wakings however. The past couple of nights he has gone down easily at bedtime and has put himself to sleep within ten minutes but has then woken up three to four times within the first four hours of the night.
Oh, we had this exact same thing happen during the 3-2! I was stumped as she would nap well and go off to sleep just fine..but then we'd get wakings between BT & DF. It was the Ot that had accumulated as an inevitable part of this transition. It had nothing to even do with the day in question but many days over time. In fact, I soon realised, that it wasn't just about good naps & being in bed on time but I had to look at the total amount of day sleep she was getting. After totalling up her day sleep, we realised that on days when she had slept 3+ hours, we did not have any NWs but if it was less, we'd have this occurring. It took two weeks of consistently long naps to get over the OT but I still had to keep an eye on sleep totals after that. Just keep moving forward, honey, and maybe try to see what his necessary amount of day sleep is and take it from there.
Hope this helps you out:)
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Thank you so much for your reply.
From looking at my logs I think he needs between 3 hours 30 and 3 hours 45. I will give this a go. If he wakes from his second nap and he hasn't had this amount would you try for a catnap to make up the extra day sleep? Even if an ebt could be achieved?
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I would avoid the catnap altogether as it will only increase the length of day yk? So if need 3.30-45 sleep in 12 hours (that seems like a lot though -- what is the total sleep in 24 hours?), if you find it coming short, go for an earlier bedtime and reduce the length of day. That worked great for us!
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He has been hovering around 14 hours. On days where he has had more than 3 hours 45 minutes he has done shorter nights so I have figured that was too much day sleep. Less than 3.5 seemed to result in more early night wakings but I only seem to get between ten and ten and a half hour nights regardless
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There are many babies that get by with shorter nights and make it up with day sleep. The reason I was asking is that it won't be easy (will it?) to get 3.30 day sleep with 2 naps. You would *have* to get a 2 hour nap + 1.5. I wonder if gradually he will do longer nights after he is done with this transition
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A longer night would be lovely! I would love him to do eleven hours but I haven't found the perfect amount of day sleep that leads to that yet!
Yes it does mean a 2 hour nap and a 1.5 hour nap. I don't always get that but days where I do tend to lead to better nights. Once he is on a 3 hour a time I will likely have to limit it though as otherwise the day will get too long.
It all just feels very messy at the moment and I am never sure whether I should keep pushing his a times so that we can get to three hours and then see if it will stabilise. I'm just worried about pushing him too far when he seems to already be getting overtired.
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So hold at this point then. If you are getting 1.5 hour nap lengths, that's fair enough. If they start shortening, you can slowly increase by 5-10 minutes?
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Ok.
This might be a stupid question but is it possible for him to be having nw's early in the night due to ot from the transition and be having wakings in the early morning due to needing his first a time to be increased? Or is it more likely that the early morning waking is due to ot too?
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He had a good night last night and only cried out at 315 at which point I fed him and then he went straight back to sleep.... But he was up and raring to go at 5! I left him in his cot until six but he made no attempt to go back to sleep. If this is due to needing a bump in his first a how do I go about it when he was playing in his cot for an hour? If I count this time as a time he will be going down very early and surely that will only encourage the early waking?
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I'm not so experienced to be sure of anything, hun. My understand is that EMWs can be reinforced by the first nap of the day being too early -- basically, they see it as a continuation of night sleep. I wouldn't think that would count with an A of 3 hours+
IMO, 3 hours is already on the higher side for a 5 mo, and if you are getting long naps and he is settling independently, then your timings are fine. Would you like to post your routine?
ETA
Just saw your post:) Glad you had a good night but bleh for EW. When he WU, he played for an hour without needing you? What is normal WU? Let's have a look at your routine..maybe there is a clue in there
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He is six months not five. Yesterday's easy was:
Wu 630
E650
A 7-920
S 920-1120
E 1125
A 1135-210
S 210-345
E 350
E 550
S 625 (in bed at 615 but took ten mins to settle.
He is having solids one hour after the first and second milk feeds
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Only time for a quick post - will post on your routine later. But I did find A times jumping so very quickly between 5 & 6 months. We went from 2.10 to 3.20 in 3 weeks, I think
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Your day looks perfect, hun. How I envy your long naps! We were lucky to get even one good nap at that time! You really feel an increase is needed, even with the 2 hour nap?
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I just don't know anymore. I couldn't work out why he was waking so much at night when I felt his day was ok. I thought it might be that he is on the lsn side and could only do 10.5 hour night max meaning that he needs a longer day than the one he has when we do two naps. Therefore I need to keep pushing his a times up. I have really messed up over the past couple of days though and he is massively overtired now so pushing a times is impossible.
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Just hold then, hun. Hold for a few days and let him catch up. {hugs} Sorry things are so difficult right now.
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IMO and according to what I have read regarding this, 10.5 is not enough sleep at all and does indicate an issue - generally OT. Just hold to a time and get him well rested again. You are getting long naps anyway so he should catch up fine.
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Just as you have said that he has started giving me rubbish ut (I think!) naps. Is there any way that too short an a before bt could cause nw's or Ews? I know that if put down too early and they mess about it can lead to ot and then nw's but could it cause problems even if they fall asleep straight away?
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In my experience yes it can. It's all very individual to different babies, and that is why it is hard to work out.
My DD always had a short am nap, then a long lunchtime nap, and refused the CN from about 4 months. At about 5/6 months she started taking 2 long naps and I was delighted! But the nights soon fell apart. It took me ages to realise! Once I went back to the short am nap it improved again ::) ::).
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It sure is hard :(. Ds naps were awful for a long time but his nights were good. Then I worked really hard on extending his naps but his nights now are pretty bad. I was thinking ot for a long time and I'm sure there is still some ot there but it does seem to be more ut now?! This made me think that his first a was the problem but maybe it's the last one. I'm really tempted to try set naps but not sure that they will be any better and don't really know where to set them at anyway!! What a pickle :-\
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Is there any way that too short an a before bt could cause nw's or Ews?
Yes, absolutely. There are many babies who need their longest A before bed.
What's your day looking like now, hun, with the short naps? If you are getting UT naps, you will have to push through the OT and stretch his times.
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It's looking like a complete mess :(
And I don't know where to start to fix it
I think we need to be on two naps one minute and then I'm not sure the next. I've been trying so hard to make sure that the problem isn't ot but maybe that's just making it worse.... Or maybe he needs longer to catch up and I'm not giving him enough chance.
I have just had to fight him for a catnap. He has finally gone down. I am sure I will have to fight him at bedtime too *sigh*
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{{hugs}} I'm going through a similar experience with the 2-1, so I feel your pain. I did find that I had to firmly stick to one nap and power through with EBT in order to get things straight again with 3-2. I will look for my old post about this and see what happened
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What kind of a time were you on when you started powering through on two naps? Did your dd just eventually get used to it and so the ot sorted itself out? I have read posts advising that if a reasonable bt is within three hours of nap ending then you should skip the catnap. My worry is that his a times are slightly less than three hours currently so this May compound the ot?
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I guess the question is whether the A times would actually be long enough if the nights were not awful? That is the catch isn't it?? They can start to rob night sleep for day sleep, but still be OT overall because really the long night sleep is more restorative than any nap.
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What kind of a time were you on when you started powering through on two naps?
We were on 3 hours A.
So I did go through my old posts and it is uncanny - we were getting OT naps, NWs, fussing at BT and EWs during this transition. I was exactly as frazzled as you are. I think I have just blocked this out as I remember it being so very smooth. Lol. I do clearly remember that I had to get her day sleep totals right in order to stop the wakings in the first part of the night. A week or two or consistently long day sleep eventually got rid of the OT and we got back on track.
I have read posts advising that if a reasonable bt is within three hours of nap ending then you should skip the catnap.
My DD could not handle 3 hours to bed at that point because she needed a shorter A before bed. I did go for an earlier bed time with an A length that suited her. Of course EBT did not work well for us at that point and I just had to push A and get long naps that ended 4.30ish.
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So we have been powering through on 2 naps and have done really well..... We haven't had to do a cat nap in ages and have got up to 305 a times. Just recently it has gone a bit pear shaped though. He started not really wanting his first bottle of the day so we decided to try and wean him off of the night feed. awe decided that if he woke before 430 we would give him only 100 ml and if he woke after 430 we would just try to resettle him ( this worked when we weaned him down from two night feeds to one). The first night he woke at 345 do we gave him 100 ml and put him back down. But he never really went back to sleep. I comforted him whenever he cried but he just didn't really ever fully settle. The second night he woke at 445 so I just went in and comforted him but again he wouldn't really fully settle back down. Last night was a repeat of the first apart from we tried to give him a bit of water after the 100 ml of milk but he wasn't interested in having any. He seemed satisfied with what he had had but again would not go back to sleep. Every morning we have made him stay in his cot until six and have then brought him downstairs and given him his bottle and he has only taken a small feed. So what gives?! I have been trying to keep his first nap of the day set at 905 regardless and he has been sleeping until I wake him up so the early start doesn't seem to be affecting the nap but he does seem tired all day. He goes down fine for his second nap and bedtime but he has given a few cry outs in the early part of the night so could this all be due to overtiredness? Should I pull his first nap earlier for a couple of days or allow him to sleep for longer? Or is it more likely ut that has caused ot so I need to extend his times? I'm so confused and so tired.
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That does sound exhausting. Happy to hear about the progress though. Umm, this is quite a common happening - babies not eating on WU due to NFs. Have you tried waiting for a half hour and then offering? The thing is, a NF or two at this age is still very normal and necessary for some.
Could you post your routine? That would make it easier to see. I don't think you should pull the nap early though. That might reinforce the early start. If he is settling without a problem and giving a long nap, that's fine....as long as he isn't thinking of it as a continuation of night sleep :-\
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He eats so much during the day I figured he didn't need the nf and it had become habit but I am going to try giving him a full feed when he wakes up to see if he goes back to sleep after. I put him down for his nap ten minutes early this morning and let him sleep for two hours.... Big mistake. This afternoons nap was pretty non existent. Will revert back tomorrow wth the hope that tonight isn't too horrendous!
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FX!