BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: firemom on May 10, 2015, 23:38:57 pm
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For the most part we are happy with our 7 1/2 month olds sleep. He's slept thru the night since he was 2 1/2. But about a month ago he started waking up earlier and earlier, now he wakes up at 5:15. But I don't think it's enough sleep because he's tired less than 2 hours later. And Just for fun the last couple nights he woke up at 1 am as well. When he wakes up before 6, I can get him to go back to sleep by feeding him, etc. But if he wakes after 6 he will not go back to sleep. I'd like him to wake up closer to 7am, if that's possible. He's content in his crib until just after 6. But if I don't respond promptly he will not go back to sleep. Should I treat his early waking like a night waking and just feed him and put him back to sleep or should I leave him alone until he is unhappy?
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Also, I meant to post his schedule.
5:15 Awake, feed and back asleep until 7
7 Awake
7:15 Nurse
8 Solids
9 - 9:30 nap 1.5 - 2 hours
10:30-11 Awake
11 Nurse
12 Solids
1:30-2 Nap 1.5 Hours
3:30 Awake
3:30 Nurse
4:30 Solids
*Cat nap in here somewhere
7 Nurse
7:30 Asleep for the night
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Personally I would always feed back to sleep at that time if it works because I have a great fear of EWs and know how quickly wake up time can become habit. Having said that though I think you could use a routine tweak. At this age baby should really need about 3 hrs A time and be dropping the catnap. If you get on s more age appropriate routine that may eliminate the EW.
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Totally agree with Anne. I would personally push especially first nap to be a later one (15min later every couple of days). I would also think about capping that nap frankly speaking to 1.5h until but let LO sleep as much as needed at second nap. When you already are closer to your dream WU time, you may stop capping. From that moment just look out for his waking time, if it's earlier and earlier push the first nap back.
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Thank you so very much. I wasn't sure if feeding him would make him start to wake up early expecting it out of habit. I will continue to feed him and let him go back to sleep. I will try pushing his first nap later and capping it at 1.5 hrs. I will also try dropping the cat nap. He just gets over tired without it. And when he's overtired he won't take a bottle from my husband on the nights I work. Also, I was nervous to move up his bedtime if that might continue the early waking. But I will try all of your suggestions. I really appreciate them.
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Good luck, let us know how you get along
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I will. Thank you Again! I'm feeling hopeful again!
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I think we're on the right track. I hope. He still woke up early this morning but at least he didn't wake up in the middle of the night again.
Yesterday went like this:
5:45 Awake, fed, would not go back to sleep.
After less than 2 hours he really wanted to go back to sleep, it was a lot of "Hey, let's look at this"
9:15 Sleep
10:45 Woke him up.
10:55 Nurse
12:00 Solids
He was fairly fussy for this A time. Again we had to keep changing scenery, giving him something new to look at/play with.
2:10 Sleep
4:15 Woke him up. (I was nervous to let him sleep too far past 2 hours and throw off his bedtime.)
4:20 Nurse
Pretty Happy this evening.
6:50 Supplemental Bottle & Nursing (my supply is pretty limited by this time of day)
7:30 Asleep for the night.
This morning he was awake by 5:30. I had to change his whole wardrobe cuz his diaper leaked. Then I fed him. By 6 he was still awake but I left him in his crib because I had to get ready for work. He was back asleep by 6:15. (I was super excited, I didn't think that was going to happen)
How long should I let him sleep? If he's still sleeping past 7, should I wake him to start the day?
Are there any tweaks I should make to the day's schedule?
My Husband's in charge for today since I'm working. And he'll do his best to keep to the routine. But he has a harder time extending A time. Cal tends to get very fussy with his Daddy if he doesn't get to go to sleep when he wants to.
I'd really appreciate any feedback you can give me. Thank you so much for the help.
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You are doing awesome! I would probably wake him at 7.30 if he is isnt already. So cool that he went back to sleep, that must feel great! The longer A times do get easier, I think they get used to certain A times and get tired almost by habit - this of it like if as an adult you got used to taking an afternoon nap, you would habitually get tired for it, but could equally break the habit if you tried to for a few days.
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I think we are on the right track. Cal slept until 6:30 this morning!!!
Today has went like this:
6:30 Awake
7 Bottle Feed
9:25 Nap
10:45 Awake
11 Nurse
12 Solids
2:00 Nap
3:30 Awake (I extended his nap once at 2:45, then I tried again at the 3:30 wake up, but he was totally awake)
3:40 Nurse
He gets really fussy after 3 hours awake especially in the evenings And tonight my husband will be giving him a bottle which he tends to refuse if he's OT. Should we let him have a short cat nap to get him to his regular bedtime at 7 or should we give him an early bedtime?
Thank you for any advise
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That's awesien! I would avoid the catnap and go for early bed.
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OK! THANKS! :)
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That a great routine Hon.
I would try to push slightly more in coming weeks to have a nap at 10am and maybe 2:30pm, both uncapped. With two naps of 1:30 you could have by easily around 7pm and wakeup arounf 7am.
As Anne advised I would try to push for two naps if they are around 1:30, but also I would be afraid to go for a catnap here or there, short (max 20min) before 7pm if he is clearly OT as one/both naps are a bit of a crap.
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Thank you. I guess last night didn't go so well without the catnap. My husband said that Cal was very fussy all evening and OT even tho he started the last feeding 45 minutes early. He cried a lot and didn't feed well. Luckily, Cal still slept through the night to wake at 6:15 this morning. It's definitely an adjustment to the longer A times. But I think you're definitely right, a nap at 10 and another at 2:30 would be ideal. He just went down for his morning nap at 9:30 and I'm hoping he'll sleep till 11.
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Honey I did a mistake in my previous post so am pasting it once again:
also I wouldn't be afraid to go for a catnap here or there, short (max 20min) before 7pm if he is clearly OT as one/both naps are a bit of a crap
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No problem. That's what I thought you meant, otherwise it didn't make sense. But thank you for the clarification. I should have told my Hubby to use a cat nap if he really thought it was needed. And apparently it was. But I thought he was going to be okay with an early bedtime.
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You know, kids are just different - some like EBT, some catnaps and preserving till normal BT.
Mine prefers catnap, he fights earlier BT and he ends being OT.
It's a matter of trying to check what is the best for your LO.
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It certainly is. They are individuals. But I'm so grateful for the BW and this forum for helping us get on the right track.
Yesterday went pretty darn good.
He woke at 6:15, but fed well and went back to sleep. Which is pretty D@mn good in my opinion. His diaper leaked AGAIN! so can't blame the little fella. I'd wake up if I was wet and cold too. Sent the Hubby to buy Overnight diapers.
Yesterday:
6:15 Awake, Fed, back asleep by 6:45.
8 Woke him for the day
8:10 Nurse (I couldn't believe how hungry he was, he ate really good just 2 hours ago)
10 Nap (He was ready by 9:30 which surprised me, I thought with the sleeping in he'd easily go past 10.)
11:30 Wake
11:35 Nurse
12:30 Solids
2:40 Nap (Fought going down really hard, cried a lot)
4 Awake (fussy, tried to get him to settle back down to no avail)
4 Nurse OK
6:20 Cat nap (15 minutes in the car)
7 Bottle & Nurse (the best he's taken his bedtime bottle in a very long time)
7:45 Asleep
This morning he was up around 6, fed and fell back to sleep. Dad's on duty today while I'm at work. I have to say I feel extremely lucky to have a Hubby who does so much for our LO.
I'm hopeful with a little longer of the early feeding and going back to sleep, nap adjustments, etc that he'll push his wake up time to 7, and we'll be closer to a 12 - 12.5 hr day.
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Yesterday I thought we were so on track. He didn't wake until 6:30 and had a model day. First Nap at 10. Second nap at 2:30. Asleep by 7:45.
This morning awake at 5:40 and would not go back to sleep.
I'm hoping this morning is just a small bump in the road. So Still just gonna keep trying to get him back to sleep when he does wake early. And as best we can keep the naps at 10 and 2:30.
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How are his nights? this is a bit 'out there' and not strictly BW but with my daughter (my son had given me such a fear of EWs) I used to do a dream feed at around 4am, and after that she would reliably sleep through til 7-7.30. I wouldn't have continued it if she still woke at 5 or 6.
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His nights are good. He's asleep by 7:30 and sleeps through to morning. He used to sleep from 7:30 to past 7:30, sometimes past 8 (then I would wake him to feed cuz he was such a little guy I was worried about him going that long without food). And I guess I got spoiled with that. It was super nice! We don't use the dream feed. I tried it in the beginning and it just didn't work for us. I usually go to sleep myself at 9. So I was setting an alarm for 11. He still wouldn't nurse at all. Then he'd still wake up later, at 1 and at 4. After several tries, I gave it up.
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Keeping fingers crossed and keep us posted.
7:45 is a bit late BT after 6:30 wake up. Could you aim for something closer to 7? How long were his naps at that model day?
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I will. I was surprised when he wasn't asleep by 7:30.
His "Model" day was like this.
6:30 awake
7 Fed
10 Nap
11 Awake (I even tried to extend it but he just popped back awake 5 minutes later)
1120ish Nurse
1230 Solids
2:30 Nap (Extended the nap one time. Some days he'll nap straight thru other days he needs a little help)
4:20 Awake
4:30 Nurse
7 Bottle & Nurse (He didn't fight the bottle at all, was very happy)
7:30 Laid down,
7:45 Asleep
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His second nap is quite late and it's long.
If first nap is an hour, I wouldn't fight it. I would however move the first nap closer to 2pm on those days and wake him by 3:30/4:00 the latest if he is not awake yet. After two hours nap he probably was slightly UT at bedtime.
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His first nap is usually 1.5hrs long. That day it was only 1hr. I was trying to follow your advise of a 10am nap and a 2:30 nap. I'm confused.
This is the ideal day I have in my head.
7 wake, feed
10 Nap
11:30 Wake, feed
2:30 Nap
4 Wake, feed
7 Final Feeding
7:30 Asleep for night
I don't know how today is going. Other than he woke at 5:40 and would not go back to sleep. I've been at work since 7am and haven't had much time to touch base with Hubby. He said his naps were off today but that he's been in a super good mood.
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Sorry honey, I will post later in the day to explain what I meant. Was a bit confusing I suppose! So sorry:). Have to get ready to work now and both I and DS are still in our PJs:).
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Okay, thanks, I really appreciate that.
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Today is going better than yesterday.
5am Wake, ate 7 oz, back to sleep
7ish wake
7:45 Nurse Ok
9:45 Nap
11 Wake
2:10 Nap
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He woke from his nap at 3:30. And was in a good mood all evening. Started his final feeding at 6:40 and he was asleep by 7:20.
I think today was pretty good. Please let me know if I should tweek it at all.
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Yes it was a very good day. Hope that night was also good!
So what I meant before was:
- if a first nap was shorter you may put him down for a second nap slightly earlier as probably he is less tested
- you may still think of set nap at 2:30 but I would wake at 4:00 the lastest or earlier even to keep BT around 7/7:30 - just try and decide what's work the best
In general you are of course far before 1 nap, but it's worth thinking which nap you will move/cap going towards one nap. If his preference is capping a morning nap, maybe just let it be shorter and shorter and bring second nap earlier and earlier. Or when morning nap will be shorter and shorter push it till 10:30/11:00 and offer second nap later but cap to preserve BT approx 12-13h after wu.
Is that clear hon?
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I think so. I was aiming for a 12 - 12.5 hour day. I'd really like his night time sleep to be closer to 11 - 12 hours..... Maybe that'll come with age?????
It's scary to think about moving to 1 nap. AHHH! (LOL) I know we're not there yet but you're right, we're going to have to figure out which nap will eventually get dropped.
Last night he woke at midnight and 1 am. He wasn't hungry, he went back to sleep very quick. Possibly he was just wanting some company??? The second time I went in there his eyes were wide open but as soon as I laid him on my shoulder he was already back to sleep.
Even with him waking last night I think we are moving his naps in the right direction. He's happier during his A times. I know it's not quite perfect yet and probably as soon as we get it figured out he'll be ready for another change. But having BW to help guide through the changes and not just wing it helps a ton!
Thank You for all you're advise. It's really made this transition a lot smoother!!!!
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He woke 3 times last night. Bedtime wasn't good. He wasn't asleep until 8.
Yesterday went like this:
5ish Wake, nurse 1 side, back to sleep
6:50 Awake
7ish Out of bed
7:45 Nurse
9:50 Nap
10:50 Awake
11 Nurse
1:30 Solids
2:10 Nap
3:30 Awake
5:30 Catnap (15 minutes)
6 Ate 2 oz, solids
6:40 Nurse and Bottle
7:20 Laid down
8 Finally asleep, after lots of waking back up and crying
Probably UT at BT cuz of the catnap.
Then He woke at:
10:45 Crying, Held and put back to sleep
5 Rocked back to sleep in like 5 minutes
6 Nurse 1 side
7 AWAKE for the day
I mostly blame the catnap for throwing off BT, and since BT was weird, I figure that's why the night was weird.
Thoughts???
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Yes I would go for dropping catnap at that age with two good naps. It was very short but maybe your LO requires a decent A till BT. I would rather go for 7pm bedtime than this catnap.
Why haven't you fed at 5am? Is there any hour you would like to get him to without a feed? What is his usual BT feed time?
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Yeah,
Hubby and I have agreed no more cat naps.
I have feed him many times at 5 am. But I thought I'd see if he go back to sleep without it. Which he did but only for another 45 minutes. He used to sleep until 7 or even later. And that was still being asleep by 7:30. I'd really love love love to get back to that. It was pretty awesome. And I got spoiled.
His usual BT feed is 7. But we've been moving that up to closer to 6:30. The hard part is many nights he just won't drink his bottle or bottle/nurse until he wants it. Trying to give it to him too early and he'll have nothing to do with it. I was just starting to think today maybe we should give him just a bottle every night to eliminate any confusion the either/ or / both might be causing???? Thoughts????
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Then on nights like tonight when he will only take the breast and not the bottle I'm glad we can still BF. Even tho I have a limited supply by evening it's still better than nothing.
I feel bad, I shoulda moved his BT up. Ugh! Mad at myself for not realizing it. I did move it up a little but not enough. He was OT and wouldn't take his bottle but he would nurse. He fell asleep pretty much on the boob. I tried to keep him awake just to finish the feed but he was out like a light.
I think since we can't use the catnap anymore we'll be starting his final feed around 6 or even 5:30 instead of 6:45 or 7.
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I've been meaning to pop back on here to leave an update and ask a few more questions.
He's still waking up early, around 6 am, no matter what time he went to bed, no matter how much he ate the day before.
We tried cutting out solids to up his milk intake. He had dropped from 30oz/day to 20oz/day. That got him back to around 26-27 oz per day but hasn't seemed to improve his sleep. I was wondering if the drop in milk was causing the sleep issues. So now I wonder when and how to reintroduce solids?
And the last 3 nights he's been waking at night again.
Night 1: woke at least 3 times (per the Hubby, I was at work.)
6:20 Awake, Fed
7:30 Nurse
9:26 Nap
10:50 Awake
11 Nurse
12 Solids (1-2 Tbsp Pureed mac & cheese)
2:15 Nap
3:45 Awake
3:55 Nurse
6:45 Ate 6 oz
7:50 Nurse
8:00 Asleep
(Offered him as much milk as possible today, to try to avoid more night wakings from hunger.)
Night 2: woke at 3:30 am, ate 4oz, was awake for 2 hours. Still woke up at 6:20.
6:20 Nursed him back to sleep
7:50 Awake for day
8:30 Ate 4oz
11:15 Nap
1:10 Awake
1:30 Ate 8oz
5 Nap
5:45 Woke him
5:55 Nurse
7:45 6oz bottle + Nurse a little
8:30 Asleep
Over night: Awake a lot of times from 12:30 till about 2:30. At first he was fully awake and it took about 15 minutes of shh/pat to get him back to sleep. then at least 6 more times, he woke whimpering, crying. It would only take a few seconds of shh/pat for him to settle down again.
Today:
6 Awake, Nursed a little
6:20 Back to sleep
6:30 Stirring
7 Out of bed for the day
7ish Nurse
7:50 Pull himself to standing! (Very exciting!)
9:05 Nap
10:30 Awake
10:40 Nurse 15 minutes
1:30 Nap
2:50 Awake
2:55 Nurse 15 minutes
6 6oz bottle + Nurse a little
6:20 Asleep
7:50 Stirred, cried. ssh/pat back to sleep
8:40 Whimpering and crying. ssh/pat back to sleep
I was kinda thinking to just quit fighting the early rising and give him an earlier bedtime, if he'll still sleep until 6. I could live with that if he'd start sleeping longer at night again.
For awhile now we've been following the later naps (10 & 2ish) in hopes of getting him to sleep in longer but it hasn't seemed to be working.
I have more questions that i'll have to post tomorrow. I'd appreciate any advise.
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Definitely I would go for an earlier BT. 8pm with an 6am wake up is probably making him OT. We talked about naps at 10 & 2 but they are probably right for a 6-7-6/7 day. If you want to move the day to 7/8-7/8 that's fine but it means all naps should be moved. So I would probably push the first nap to closer to 10:30/11:00 but still have a second nap around 3/4. Sample routine would be like below:
7:30 WU
10:30 nap
12:00 activity
3:00 nap
4:30 activity
7:30 BT with the routine starting at 7:00.
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7/8 - 7/8 kinda day would be ideal in my mind, just like you laid out. But he seems stuck waking at 6am. So I think for now at least we've just got to put him to bed at 6 - 6:30. I would love for him to be back to a 12 hour night. Your right, The 10 hr night is just way too short.
I agree he has been OT trying to adjust to the later naps. One morning I found him wide awake at 4:45. But he hadn't made a peep. Who knows how many mornings he was really awake that early. So that explained why some days he was exhausted by 7:45am.
He was asleep by 6:20 last night and didn't wake up until 7 this morning but he woke up a lot last night so it doesn't really count as 12.5hrs sleep. closer to 10.5.
Last night he woke around 2 am, I gave him about 10 minutes to resettle but when he started crying I went in. After changing his diaper, with the room still dark I tried to rock him, and he started screaming and pushing away from me. I offered him a bottle, he drank 3 out of the 4 oz I had for him and then was totally quiet. I rocked him, watching closely for his eyes to drift shut. After 15-20 minutes his eyes were still open but I decided to lay him in his crib. He didn't make a sound and got into his sleeping position (head turned to the side). I stood with him for a few more minutes before leaving the room. Then about 20 minutes later, he was fussing again. and I went in to ssh/pat him. I had to keep doing this over and over every few minutes. Till finally around 4am he was back to sleep.
Any ideas what's causing these weird night wakings?
Also, most nights he fights his bedtime bottle? He would happily nurse but I just don't have much milk left by that time of day. On the days/nights I work my husband has taken to giving him 3 bottles a day. That has improved his milk intake on those days. But I was advised on the BF board to still nurse 4 times a day. I usually nurse after every wake up, including his afternoon nap. Then 3 hours (ish) later we're trying to put him to bed and I wonder if he's just not hungry enough yet. I guess I wouldn't sweat him not wanting a lot at BT if he was still sleeping good. But I believe Tracy advised "tanking them up". And that used to work great for us. He'd easily guzzle 10oz before bed and he would sleep 12 or more hours. Now it's a good night if he'll eat 6oz. I've tried feeding him before his afternoon nap but he just falls asleep before he gets a good feeding. Any suggestions on when to time the afternoon and BT feed? Maybe one feeding halfway between when he wakes up and when BT would be? Like if he woke up at 3p and we're laying him down at 6/6:30 should we feed him at 4:30/5? Then maybe offer a few more ounces before bed?
We've been dealing with this issue for awhile now and now he's almost 9 months old, so I don't know if that would make you think anything different schedule wise.
What are the signs they're ready for 1 nap? I know we're not there yet but I don't want to miss the cues. I feel like I missed something a few months ago and that's why we're in this boat now.
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Hi Honey, so sorry for your bad night.
It's difficult to speak about A times at this age as different A suits different children but overall an average would be probably having around 13-14h of sleep with 14+ for a HSN and 13- for LSN. We were doing 14h (2h day sleep and roughly 11.5 at night as he was in bed for 12h but really sleeping probably 11.5h). We always worked on 12-12.5h day (light on at 7am, light off at 7pm but waking before 7am and going to sleep after 7pm).
I would be really surprised if he is ready for 1 nap at this age. Starting transition is a totally different story and that would mean you won't have 2x1.5h naps a day - which is totally possible at that age. Here from 8mo till around 11/12 we were doing 1.5h + 20-40min of second nap.
If you feel he is not needing two long naps or he is doing short nap after 3-3.5h I would push towards 4-4.5h A in the morning, offer a nap and squeeze a second nap somewhere in the afternoon (so letting an UT nap in the afternoon and very short A till BT - even 2.5h). I would also think of capping naps to 2:00/2:15 of total day sleep. The routine may be:
1) 7:00 WU
11:15/30 nap for 1.5h
12:45/1:00 WU from a nap
nap around 4:00 nap for 30-45min
7:00 BT
For such a routine I would propose such a feeding schedule. I get your point with milk intake. Mine was on 3 bottles per day at that age and if I gave him too much milk or too late in the day (after 2:30), his BT bottle would be affected. I guess with BF it's a different story. so 4x a day is needed.
Sample routine:
7:30 BF
8:30 Breakfast
11:00 BF
1:00/1:30 lunch
3pm BF
5pm dinner
7/7:30 BF
Yes he is for sure OT after NW but this is a vicious cycle, if you don't push him for a better sleep/naps during day, he will still wake at night. Second thought I have is how you address NW. Isn't there any prop involved? At that age I would definitely avoid rocking. Frankly speaking at that age I was leaving him in a cot and only doing shh/pat or voice reassurance. Taking my DS from cot ended in OS him at night and going back to sleep was very difficult.
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Thank you for your concern and advise, I'm OT. Last night he actually slept through!!! But I was awake every hour or so for no good reason. He was sound asleep but I was staring at the ceiling.
He did make a few sounds around 9p and 4a but was able to resettle himself quickly and I didn't need to go in the room.
Yesterday:
6:30 Awake
7 Nurse
8 Bfast
10:10 Nap (1h)
11:10 Awake
11:30 Nurse
2:20 3oz Bottle
2:30 Nap (fussing at 35 minutes, I ssh'd him and he went right back to sleep)* (1h20m)
3:50 Awake
4 Nurse
6:35 6oz Bottle + Nurse, then BT routine
7:05 Laid down
7:20 Asleep
This morning he was awake at 6:20.
He was a tad UT at BT, but only about 15 minutes or so. I wanted to get everything done so he could be laid down to fall asleep on his own.
What does HSN and LSN stand for?
I see that even yesterday we had a 13h day and an 11h night. I would like closer to 12/12 but 12.5/11.5 would be okay too. I would've liked to put him to bed about 6:30 but he'd only woken up from his nap around 4.
*I had taken the return of the 35minute nap as a sign that he was OT. But perhaps we should just let him wake up at that point????
As far as props, just ssh/pat or pu/pd. He doesn't use a pacifier or a lovey. (I want him to have a lovey but he hasn't attached to one yet and the one I was trying for him I found covering his face so I removed it and haven't used anything since. When he's a little older we'll try something else.)
I start with ssh/pat but if he just cries harder I pick him up and calm him down then lay him back down and try ssh/pat again. Usually ssh/pat is all it takes. IF we're close to morning, I do change his diaper, and if he doesn't resettle quickly offer him a bottle. I don't nurse at night, I don't want that to become a habit. I can't help but rock when we sit in the chair, my legs just take over automatically, LOL.
Is there a way of breaking the OT cycle? I think that's why we've been pushing the 2- 1.5h naps. That's also why we would extend any 35minute nap. We were trying to fix the OT. Yesterday he napped for just under 2.5h and was freakishly happy all day.