BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Elvisking on May 22, 2015, 21:16:48 pm
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Hi,
LO is nearly 8 months. He slept through the night from 10 weeks- with the odd disruption with the dummy & teething, but naps were always a nightmare. We started to wean him at 5 1/2 months and from 6 months his nightime sleep is horrendous. He is awake between 4-11 times every night. Sometimes because he's lost his dummy, sometime just lying awake & sometimes playing/banging cot. He never cries, but is very noisy & wakes my eldest daughter up. Some would say leave him- but he is exhausted, as am I. He is a brilliant eater, but milk intake is on the low side- (health visitor has put him on vit drops for this)
Day pretty much goes like this (if it goes to plan!!)
A 7:00
E 7:15 bottle then porridge
A
S 9:00 45-90 min
E 11:00 bottle followed by lunch
A
S 1/1:30 90-120 mins
E 3:00 bottle
A
S 4/4:30 catnap for 10 mins if last nap was good or 30 min if it was poor
E 5:00 dinner & dessert
A wind down
Bottle then at 6pm
S 7:00
First night waking is always around 10/10:30 then after 12 it all goes pear shaped. Sometimes we can go in & pop dummy in & he's fine. Other times it's 20/30 mins of shh/pat, or just shh.
I know we're doing something wrong- but we're that tired we don't see it.
A friend is a sleep consultant & says that his routine is great- but morning nap needs to be a bit later, so we are doing that in 5 min stretches daily. She always says she's sure it's not a sleep problem- as he was a good sleeper and usual-95% of the time naps well.
Please please pleeeeease have a look, and please offer your thoughts. It's probably blatantly obvious to you guys, but we really need help.
Thanks xxx
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Well, I think your friend the sleep consultant may well be somewhat right... that first A time should be more like 3-3:15 at least by 8 months so it definitely needs to push out. That CN should be gone by now too, most babies drop to 2 solid naps between 6 and 7 months.
TBH, pushing by 5mins at a time could end you up in a heap as it may be too slow and if you're not already seeing an OT/UT loop, you are likely to soon. IIWM, I would just go cold turkey to a routine like that below, stick to it for a week and then tweak from there:
7 - Wake
10 - Nap
11:30 - Wake (let him wake on his own - you may have to resettle an OT waking the first few days)
2:30 - Nap
4 - Wake
7 - BT
Of course, you know your baby best, so go with the option that feels right for you. I suspect after a week of this routine, you'd be pushing your A times another 15 min if not 30.
The other thing I'd point out is that you said in your post his sleep has been terrible since you weaned. I'm guessing you mean added solids to his diet and left all else the same. The milk intake could well be low because he's eating too much in the way of solids - solids is for tasting and fun til LO is 1yo, really. Milk has more calories per oz than any solids you'd offer a baby and its really important to his night sleep that he's getting enough calories in the day so it could well be worth cutting dinner solids out completely and just having small amounts of breakfast and lunch. That way the solids should have made their way through his gut by BT and not be contributing to the wakings via discomfort.
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Brill becj thank you. That all makes sense. In fact SO much sense!!!! Thank you.
The food issue- LO has had sever silent reflux and it took us 4 months of different meds & milk to get him sorted- the weaning started & we saw a major change in his reflux, so we were advised to go ahead at his rate- which is a really hungry appetite. However, just this evening I cut out his dessert so that I could get more milk in to him.
I am going to try this tomorrow. How long do you recommend we try this for to judge if it's working? ( I suppose if his night sleep gets better that's proof??!!)
Thank you SO much. I will be in touch!!!
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Glad I could help - sometimes all you need is someone who's not stuck in it...
Ok, reflux can be a big issue and the pain can have him waking at night... couple other questions:
Have his meds been adjusted in line with weight gain?
Is it possible there's a food sensitivity involved?
I reckon you'd have to give the new routine about a week and then tweak - expect OT wakings from nap at around 30min for the first 2-3 days - not because its wrong for him, just its a big jump from what he's used to but he should start sleeping naps better within 3 days and the night should follow within the week.
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Hi, well He slept all night last night!!!! Would you believe it?!
Anyway, reflux meds have just been increased & we are waiting for our allergy testing appointment. This is something that the sleep consultant said. I wanted to wait to see what anyone suggested on here first- and interestingly enough- you mentioned it. Consultant said- that she is adamant it's not a sleep issue, and goes more along the allergy/intolerance route. We have an appointment in 3 weeks- and are trying to get one sooner. It will be interesting to see. In the meantime, we go ahead as you suggested.
He was up at 5:34 am and he went down for nap at 8.not quite 3 hours- but he was screaming in exhaustion. So, tomorrow we'll try for 3 hours.
I really cannot thank you enough- everything you said just makes sense- and as we both said sometimes- it just takes an outsider to look in!! Will keep in touch. Thanks xx
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Oh, meant to add. We currently hold LO & cuddle until he's nearly asleep & then put him in to his cot. We ultimately want to get him sleeping independently. We've looked in here at the Pantley technique & have a few from our friend. Do you think we wait until nighttime sleep is sorted before we do this? Or tackle both?
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I found it infinitely easier to get DS to sleep independently when I knew he was on a really solid routine that worked well for him. I think also you're pretty close to 9 months and that's typically when the first round of separation anxiety hits so best to wait for the sleep training IMO. You could try putting him down slightly less drowsy if you want to work on it, worth a try but I wouldn't do anything other than gradual withdrawal at this point. Any props at play? I presume he can plug his own dummy?
Pushing those A times is hard and its a big jump, I know, I've done it with my DS too but it will mean you're not chasing your tail with A times for the next 3 months.
Great that he had a good long sleep last night :) May it continue!
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That's what we thought really too. He did wake early from nap this morning- but had a good 3 hour A time & just did a 95 min nap. Will have to give him a catnap today due to the early waking right?
Dummy- getting there, still like to play with it a bit- but yeah, can plug himself most of the time.
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Yeah, I would just to keep BT reasonable.
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He got 25 mins! His sister woke him. Will get onto this again in a day or two & see how we're getting on! Thank you V V much!!! 🙏xx
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Ok, so strangely enough, gone all night again!! Up at 5!!! Haven't gone into him yet- hoping he'll go back over!!! This is a new one for us again!!! Even if he managed til 6 😢
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This EW is really something you'd see with that first nap being too early - well worth pushing it out xx
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Aaaaargh Bec!! He woke at 4am! Went back at 5:07 ish & is awake again at 5:49 😢😢😢😢
Do we it him down 3 hours from now or from the 4am? He really didn't get much kip between 4-5. This is horrific. We are getting earlier every night. Definitely doing 3 hours this morning.
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I know its hard, but you're seeing the result of the way too short first A time right now, so you go from when he got up for the day and do 3hr. He will be screamy and it will not be pleasant but this is short term pain for long term gain. Consider how long this will take increasing by 5min every 2-3 days - by the time you've done the 36 days required to get you to 3hr, he'll need 3.5hr and you'll still be in this loop. Good luck, try to keep it low key for him but keep him awake xx
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Great. Thanks. I understand the reasoning, & yeah- trying to keep him awake was horiffic!!!! Onwards & upwards eh? Thanks again! Xx
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Yeah, time doesn't blunt those memories... or it hasn't yet :P Best of luck, you really should be seeing some improvements in a couple of days. xx
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Hi, just thought I'd touch base! We're on our second day of exactly 3 hour awake time in the am! He's doing great. He is exhausted & it is reay hard to keep him awake- but he's doing it. Still up early- but closer to 6 now which is good. I'm still doing a 10/20 catnap around 4:30 as he's up so early- but as he wakes later I'll get rid of it. He is shattered by 4!!! Just one thing- if he's up at 5:45 he does 2x120min naps & a 10/20 min cat nap & bed asleep at 7pm, do think he needs earlier BT? Sooo greatful for your advice. Thank you!! Xx
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So you're saying your day looks a bit like this now:
5:45 E
8:45 S
10:45 E
1:45 S
3:45 E
? CN
7 BT
If you're still doing the CN, BT of 7 is fine, maybe a touch later really would be ok too.
TBH, I'd just do BT ~6:30/6:45 without the CN. You may find you're able to resettle and get a long night out of him to shift WU that bit later ;) An 11hr night and 13hr day is ok at this age if you're getting 2hr naps.
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Hi Bec, just thought I'd give you a run down! Also got a few questions!!
Well, he's sleeping through!! We sometimes have 1/2 wake ups but that's it. He's managing the 3 hours no problem, but is still waking 45-60 mins into the naps!! He seems to get night sleep right & then naps go wrong or vice versa!!! I can get him to go back over if I am able to get up there quick enough- and he'll do a further 45- but it is a pain with having the eldest LO.
Just a few queries...
If he does only 45 min in am & 60 in pm is early BT better or a catnap & stick to 7pm bed?
Do I do BT by the time he wakes up or by how much sleep he's had during the day?
Also, if he wants to do 2 hours in first nap is that ok? Or do I cap each nap to 90 mins?
Can't thank you enough for your advice!!! Hope you are wellXx
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Hi, Glad things are better with nights. Can you confirm - he's about 8 months now? I was saying you may need to increase A time a tad more to get the sweet spot after the jump to 3hr, with a 60min waking, you're probably within 10-20min of the right A time, so I'd increase by 15min and see how you go :)
TBH, at this age, he should be able to do 2hr45 A off a 1hr nap and 2:15-2:30 A off a 45min nap so I'd probably try to do a tiny CN of no more than 20min and then pop into bed at 7 or just carry on and do BT early though with EBT you run the risk of earlier WU too. Either could suit, just depends on your family situation and LO's temperament. Once on two naps, DS never took a late PM CN again :P
I think once you increase those A times a touch more and get those good naps again (the 60min naps show he is UT but can transition between sleep cycles), you'll be fine for a little while so long as you just increase by ~5 min every week or two by observing his cues.
Don't worry about capping until 2hr - naps of 2hr are fine at this point.
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Right, tbh- I've still been giving him 3hpir activity time off a 45min nap!!! I've just tried to stick to it- just to get him used to it. In the morning I'll post the last few days so that you can see how we're doing & what needs tweaking. We're currently up here- not sure what's wrong, but it's been 20 mins of playing & the crying is about to start. 😢
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Cheers :) I was erring on the conservative side with those A times after short naps so I wouldn't worry too much, he will definitely need a push though if he's doing 3hr off a short nap and doing another UT nap.
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Hi Bec, we've had a crazy few days. Sleep is awful and LO is exhausted and we're ready for the hills!!! We're really struggling to keep him up for 3 hours- but are really trying to!!! He is going down easily enough, but waking a lot before 12 and then the rest is not great either!!! Please check the food also- the last few nights we've had to dream feed. & it has helped. Here's the last few days easy....
6:20 awake
E 6:40 5 oz milk, porridge & banana
S 9:30
11:10 awake
E 12:10 5 oz milk lunch & dessert
S 1:45 he was exhausted
2:53 awake
E 4:10 3oz milk
4:50 dinner & dessert
6:30 3oz milk
S 6:52 asleep
He then woke up twice before 8:30, 12:07, 1:51, 3:34 for 25 mins, we gave him a bottle- he drained 6oz asleep again at 4:20, woke at 5:32 and slept until 8:10
8:10 awake
E 5oz milk
Porridge, pancake & fruit
S 10:58
12:02 awake
E 12:27 5oz milk lunch & dessert
S 2:58
4:40 awake
E 4:58 dinner & dessert
6:35 4oz milk
S 7:15
1 wake up before 9, 11:20 gave feed drained 6oz, awake at 5, 5:53, and up at 7:20
Today
Awake 7:20
E 7:40 5oz & porridge
S 10:27
11:42 awake
E 12:00 6oz milk lunch & dessert
S 2:38 asleep
Woke at 3
4:20 I woke him up
E 4:50 5oz milk & dinner
6:45 6oz drained
S. 7:12
I've been up to him twice so far!!!
Sorry that's so long & so much for you to read!!
He has never had a good relationship with milk and the maximum he's ever taken is 6oz. So please don't be alarmed at the small quantities!! He is on vitamins & eats solids well. I feel we are all over the place- and it's probably staring me in the face- but I'm just not sure what to do. Should I allow him to sleep longer at nap time instead of weakening him?? Hooke you see something!!! Again, apologies for the looooooong email!!!!
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Ok, so at 2:45 A time, he's still doing ~1hr nap - are you waking him here? I think even though he looks exhausted, he's not actually because you're still getting short UT naps. I think this is shortening his day and leaving him OT at BT hence the wakings in pre-midnight.
So I'd say there are a few things you can do in combination:
- Ensure he's up 3hr at least, he's still doing a shortish nap on that first A of 3hr. (eg. Today - 3:07 first A, 1:15 nap)
- Don't wake him til 2hr into a nap
If you really can't keep him up, try to keep A to BT to 2:15 -2:30 so he's not so OT going to bed - see you had less wakings on the middle day which had a shorter A to bed.
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Hi Bec, thanks.
I'm currently up for the 6th time. He's been awake for 35+ mins here & is still banging away at the cot. It is seriously getting us down now & the length of time it's taking us to get him back over every wake up is absolutely ridiculous. Do you think we need to try anything else to stop this or stick to trying to get him through the night first? We have to hold/cuddle him for at least 6/7mins & then half the time we put him back in asleep he wakes upon putting him back in.
Sooo, up for at least 3 hours between wu & naps & keep A time before bed shorter- ie 2hr 15/30 despite morning wu time??
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I think keep A to BT shorter only if he has shorter A times or shorter naps during the day. Its when he's not getting those 2 restorative naps in the day that he's struggling at night. Its hard and that interrupted evening is soul-destroying, I know. The only thing that will fix that is to stop him being OT by the end of the day by not letting him nap when UT.
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Hi Bec, thanks for the reply. Yesterday his routine was different in the afternoon as he went to the childminder. He only slept for 15 mins in the car their- and 20 mins in the way home in the car. He was massively OT going to bed. He had two wake ups before 12- but they were a quick in- in & out reassurance & that was it. He's woken at 3:30, thrashing around the place like mad, all over the cot again really unsettled. I went in & lifted him & usually we put him on our knee & just hold him, sometime pat his back he will go over immediately. This has not worked in 3 days- he is SO awake, has bad wind both ends & is hungry. We have just fed him & he is calm. He is clearly hungry. I think it's definitely more than just UT. What do you think? I really don't want to get into the habit of feeding him again in the night- but if it works & we all get sleep then.....? It's a bad habit😪 I can't fit any more bottles in the day could it be a DF?
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Yeah, you could do a DF. How old is he again? I think he's ~8 months, no? If so, its still very normal to have a night feed in there.
Have you introduced a new food recently? Bad wind and wanting milk... sounds like maybe an intolerance/reaction to food?
Its certainly not a bad habit to feed a hungry baby and if that gives him and you another 3hr of quality sleep, its worth it!
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Oh thank you!!! I thought you were going to say no!!! 😂😂 he has not been introduced to new foods- but could be needing more reflux meds as he's grown? We'll keep in touch! Are you in Oz? I owe you big time!! 👍👍x
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Yeah, every 500g-1kg or so, they need to up the dosage, really, so that should be every few weeks and tapering off towards 1yo...
Keep me posted, I'd love to see it all work out, I'm sure it will! Yeah, I'm in Brisbane at the moment.
I'm just paying it forward for all the help I got when DS was a baby. I love helping people get babies sleeping better, makes life so much more manageable.
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Hi Bec :'(,
Hope you are well? Well, things aren't great. Daytime sleep is awesome & he is not waking at all during naps- in fact I think this May be our new problem?? Naps are too long?
Well, we had a kineseologist look at Max & basically she said he is allergic to dairy, wheat, oats, quite a few veg & fruits. Not great. We have had him off dairy for a good while & it has not made a difference whatsoever.
I'll post the last two days easy for you to see, but basically we're usually waking 45min after going to bed (last night he didn't for first time in weeks) then there's 2/3 night wakings of 10-20 mins & then on the button up for the day at 5:35. Think it's too much daytime sleep? Also, what do you think of last activity time?
Up 5:37 bottle & tried to get him back over
E 6:20 downstairs for breakfast
S 8:47 (I woke him at 11:12)
E 12:20 lunch & dessert & bottle
S 2:50 (late as we were out) I woke him at 4:09
E 5:00 dinner & dessert
6:00 supper
6:30 bottle
S 7:03 asleep
Then up at 1:01am, 4:03 am & up for day at 5:38
Up 5:37 (tried to get him over) did for a short time
E 6:35 up & bottle & breakfast
S 9:50 (woke at 11:55)
E 12:10 lunch, dessert & bottle
S 3:05 asleep (woke 4:10)
E 5:05 dinner & dessert
6:30 bottle
S 6:47 asleep
Awake at 7:33, 11:16, 4:27, 5:07- long wake time. Fed him a bottle. 6:20 up for the day.
It is driving us mad & we are ready to throw in the towel.we are exhausted & it cannot go on.
Is the first thing- cap naps??
Thanks Bec
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Hi sweetie, sorry to hear its not getting much better :(
Can you remind me how old Max is now?
Those wakings early in the evening are more likely OT than UT, though I agree that a change to your day may help with that 5:37 waking.
My suggestions are:
- increase and keep consistent that first A time to 3:15 minimum, I'd say more likely 3.5hr from what you've written. You've done so well to increase it from where they were and you're getting good naps which means you're on the right track but you've got to push it a bit more if you're getting those EWs.
- Don't let him nap longer than 2hr (I see a sneaky 2.5hr nap in there)
- I'd probably leave that last nap a little longer and do a slightly later BT - well rested and with a slightly later BT, combined with the increased first A time, you should see the day shift later.
Maybe that second A time needs another bump too... that short nap on the second day you posted would suggest that, then the last A time would probably be ok rather than giving that OT waking early in the night.
How's he behaving now during the wakings after midnight?
How are you going sorting out a diet for him? I know its hard with so many things off the table, especially when he's eating so much in the way of solids. There are some very knowledgeable mums around who've walked this tough road - might be worth asking on one of these boards:
Feeding Solid Food
Colic, Reflux, & Crying
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Thanks Bec, it's soul destroying. Max is 9 months on the 6th July.
That all sounds about right so thanks! Will give that a go today. Is it ok to sleep 2 hours in am (but no more) and what should maximum be for 2nd nap? 1.30/2hours??
He still isn't crying- it is just wide awake, happy & noisy!!! It's so hard to be relaxed when we are so uptight with having so little sleep.
As for food....... That's another battle. I'm currently steaming veg & roasting meat & boiling quinoa & grains as we speak. It's going to be a challenge & I'll be posting on other boards later 😩😩😩
Thanks Bec xxxx
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There are plenty of shoulders to lean on here xx We've all been exhausted parents at some point, in need of someone to bounce ideas off!
Totally ok to keep the 2hr nap in the AM, cap the PM nap at 1.5hr or 45min-1hr if you're looking for that longer night. I suspect you'll shortly be doing something like this:
6 - WU
9:30 - nap
11:30 - wake
3 - nap
4:30 - wake
7:15/7:30 - BT
...which would then allow you to push WU later then cap the PM nap shorter and shorten the last A time a touch once you're happy with WU time.
If he's wide awake and happy, just leave him to go back to sleep - don't go in and interact. Pushing those A times should help with that once you've got them long enough, he shouldn't be so UT.