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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: momt2girls on June 05, 2015, 12:31:34 pm
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Hello everyone! Have been lurking here for a while. Thank you for such a wonderful forum and for all the help you provide ...
My LO will be 6 months in 3 days. She is EBF, no paci, usually pat to sleep in her bassinet. 4 hour easy. Wakes up screaming most of the time. I wake her at 6.40 every a.m. every week day and can give 15 mins extra on a weekend. I've been struggling for a long time with her night sleep wakings. Some history...
Until 2.5 months old slept only while been held day and night. No stroller, no car seat, no car ride, no swing - she would scream her head off until I picked her up and snuggled her. 5 mins after you put her down she would wake up and scream..
Per baby whisperer book at 2.5 months I swaddled her, put on her side supported so that she doesn't roll and she started sleeping stretches of 4 hours... I was trying to do a routine by the book (didn't save any records) and in a couple of weeks she started waking up at 45 mins every single sleep cycle day and night. During the day we helped her to transition by holding her tight (in her basinet) or shhh/pat. Usually it worked. But at night was a disaster. She was extremely hard to settle and started getting long NW. Her day time sleep was by the book (with the help to transition) and 45-1.30 mins after bed time she woke up and played until 11-12 at night. Then she would do a stretch of 4-5 hours sleep. Every morning I woke her up at 6.40 as I was taking DD1 to school. So her days were starting at the same time but she stayed home with my mom.
I removed swaddle at about 4.5 months as LO was rolling and getting out of it, plus it was hot here... Big problem was that LO could not sleep her face up. I had to put her on her side first (she was not ready for swaddle removal), and when she was really drowsy put her on her tummy.
Now she falls asleep on her tummy but if she is having a hard time to resettle, she turns on her back and screams. I have to turn her back on her tummy and pat to sleep or nurse (after 11 p.m I am trying not to do that too often). Looks like this happens when she is not tired enough.
Because of the school runs from 7.10 to 7.55 and 13.35 to 14.25 p.m. I started doing short/long/short nap routine. LO doesn't like sleeping in a car seat and usually will scream nonstop if she is tired, but would not fall asleep. So I had to put longer sleep around noon so it was done at home. At around 5 months old I cut her morning nap to 40 mins and she stared transitioning between her sleep cycles during the day. She would do 2-2.30 mins of day sleep (that never happened before) and again 40 mins p.m. nap. Nights got better little bit. I kept slowly decreasing her morning and evening nap. Certain nights she would do with 1-2 wakings but more nights would be a complete disaster with waking at every sleep cycle or at every other sleep cycle. I tried to repeat the routine from a good day the next day but it never worked. She would do fine during the day but would never repeat the night...
School is over so for the next 2 months I don't have to worry about timing her naps between school runs. I am aiming at 7 a.m wake up time...
Here are some of our days… I am trying to do Martii85 routine 20 mins/2hours/20 mins for LSN babies. But I don’t know how long A time needs to be, so I am just looking at LO tired signs ( if there are any as she is very hard too read)…
Here is a routine before I started cutting her am and pm naps. Almost 5 months old
May 5
Up/down all night, early wake up
WU 5.40
A 5.40-7.40 ( 2 hours )
E 6.45
S 7.40-8.00 in a car
s 8.10-9.30 in a bassinet
A 9.30-11.43 ( 2.13 )
E 10.45
S 11.43-12.03 woke up screaming, shh/pat to resettle
S 12.10-13.10
A 13.10 – 15.24 ( 2.14 )
E 14.45
S 15.24-15.34 Woke up screaming
S 15.40-16.20
E 18.p.m.
A16.20-19.28 ( 2.08)
E 19 p.m.
S 19.28-20.20
A20.20 – 22.00 (1.40)
E 21.30
May 6
S 22.00- 3.20 a.m.
E 3.20
S 3.30-6.40 a.m
WU 6.40
A 6.40-7.47 (1.07)
E 6.45
S 7.47 -8.15 in a car
A 8.15-9.47
S 9.47-10.47
A 10.47-12.35 (1.32)
E 10.47
S 12.35- 13.25
A 13.25-15.34 (1.49)
E 14.45
S 15.34-16.24
A 16.24-18.45 (2.20)
E 18.00
S 18.45-19.30
A 19.30-22.00 (2.30)
E 20.00, 21.30
S 22.00-3.00 a.m
E 3.00
S 3.10-6.35 a.m
Here is our recent EASY since I started cutting her morning and afternoon naps, almost 6 months old
May 29
Disaster night with long awake from 22.13 to 00.09
WU 6.40
E 6.45
S 8.58-9.24 I wake her (0.26)
A 9.24-11.50 (2.25)
E 10.45
S 11.50-13.40 I woke her and put in a car, school run
S 13.45-14.30 in a car ( total 2.35 of sleep)
A 14.30-17.30 ( 3 hours)
E 14.45
S 17.30- 17.50 (20 mins) I woke her
A 17.50-21.05 (3.10)
E 18.00, 19.30, 20.50 hoping that she will fall asleep
S 21.05-7.48 a.m I think she got up around 5 a.m to eat and went back to sleep. It was the longest stretch I ever got from her so I decided to let her sleep and see what will happen..
May 30 Saturday
WU 7.48
A 7.48- 10.32 (2.40) following her tired signs if she has any
E 8.00
S 10.32-10.52 (0.20)
A 10.52-12.55 (2.13)
E 11.50
S12.55-15.08 (2.13)
A 15.08-17.55 (2.50)
E 16.00
S 17.55-18.15 (0.20)
A 18.15-21.07 (2.55)
E 18.30, 20.30
S 21.07-1.00 a.m , E 1.00 a.m.
May 31 Sunday
S 1.25-3.00 a.m. pat to sleep
S 3.15-7.00 a.m.
WU 7.00
A 7.00-9.05 (2.05)
E 7.15
S 9.05-9.27 (0.22)
A 9.22-11.45 (2.20)
E 11.15
S 11.45-14.10 (2.25)
A 14.10-16.56
E 15.15
S 16.55-17.20 (0.25)
A 17.20-20.30 (3.10)
E 17.30, 19.30
S 20.30-22.00
E 22.00
S 10.20 , up every 45 mins till morning!!!!
Fed her every 3-4 hours, all the rest pat to sleep
I don't do CIO . Tried PU/PD a couple of times ( succeeded once), hubby is not on board with me on that, so I am leaving it out for now..
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Want to add today EASY
June 5
WU 7.00
E 7.00
A 7.00-8.55 ( 1.55 )
S 8.55-9.15 I woke her up (0.20)
A 9.15- 11.55 (2.40)
E 11.00
S 11.55-14.30 she woke up after 30 mins screaming, pat to sleep 5 mins (2.30)
A 14.30-17.00 (2.30)
E 15.00
S 17.00-17.20 was crying, hard to settle, had to put her in a hammock, after 10 mins of swinging she fell asleep
A 17.20 -20.42 (3.20)
E 18.00, top up 19.00, 20.30
S 20.42- 23.40
Tried to put her to sleep at 19.15 but she kept looking around, running and kept trying to turn on her back. Left her be, she started screaming in about 10 mins. I picked her up, started singing lullaby and she started screaming, she got quiet, i tried to put her in her bassinet and she started screaming, shhh/pat did nothing. My husband came and took her to watch TV with him, saying she is not sleepy...
BF her at 20.30 and then to bed... Finally..
E 23.40
S 00.05-4.40 had a hard time falling asleep, cried, pat to sleep
E 4.40 don't know for how long she was awake before 4.40, she was wide awake and quiet
S 5.00- 7.10 took her about 15 mins to fall asleep after BF, self settled
How do you keep a 12 hour day if the child just refuses to settle!!! When she is tired she BF with her eyes closed and then will go down easy. If she is BF with her eyes open, she will fight if you try to put her to sleep too soon...
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Honestly reading your post I suspect your lo is massively OT - ((hugs)). A true LSN child would generally be STTN on low amounts of day sleep, waking happy and not fight settling. I think the routine is too ambitious for any but a very small number of babies so my suggestion would be to start again from scratch and work on a new routine with appropriate A times that fits around your school runs. I'm happy to help you with that if you let me know your ideal WU/BT and what time commitments you have in the day :)
Does your lo have independent sleep skills?
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Thank you for your response Jessmum,
When she was smaller, i tried putting her down by Tracy: two naps 1.30 and a cat nap 0.45. We were doing timing by the book with suggested A for her age, she was going down easy for all naps but woke up 45 mins or 1.30 after BT and would not go down for the next 2 hours. And after i started cutting her morning nap she finally started transition between sleep cycles without help and doing up to 2.30 mid day nap. That all got me thinking she is LSN.
She was always screaming upon waking up. Well, 90% of the time.
The school is done till the end of August. DD1 is going to a nearby school so it will be easier on the nap of DD2. I would say 13.45-14.15 in a car. Wake up 7 a.m. Would be great.
I am ready to try any other routine and open for suggestions.
I cannot say that LO is an independent sleeper as she goes down with pat only. I stop patting when her eyes start going open-close-open-close. Will work on that...
Can long awake spells be a sign of OT?
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LO was tired so I just went with the flow hoping that she will catch up on some sleep and here it is
June 6
WU 7.10
A 7.10-9.09 (1.59) she was very tired
E 7.15
S 9.09- 10.00 she woke up crying, i did not try to resettle as we had to go.. (0.50)
A 10.00-12.09 (2.09) she was tired, couldn't hold her longer
E 11.15
S 12.09-14.45 (2.35)
A 14.45-17.15 (2.30)
E 15.00
S 17.15-17.35 tried to put her down at 16.35 as she was tired, she couldn't settle, started crying, i took her out of the room, she got quiet, i brought her back in, she started screaming..., fell asleep in a hammock, i woke her up in 20 mins
A 17.35-19.30 (1.53)
E18.00, top up 19.15
BT 19.30
NW 22.00-22.30 BF
NW 00.05- 00.30 BF
Nw 4.00-4.45 BF she self settled on all three wakings after BF but it took her 10-20 mins
WU 7.00 i woke her up, she cried, was not happy about it.
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Long awake spells can definitely be due to OT. I've had them with both my LOs at various times. They would typically not be chatty wakings but may appear 'hyper' or very upset/trying to sleep. NWs in the first 2-3 hours after bedtime are very typical for OT. But long wakings can also be UT or discomfort, you do need to look at the whole picture.
I would say that any routine tweaking is very tricky without LO being a true independent sleeper. If you can wean your involvement in settling that might help to clear things a little. Do you always BF at night wakings too? I ask because my LO self-settled at naps and bedtime, and even after a NF but certainly developed some habit NFs as he for a time wouldn't settle without them. May be worth thinking about....
It's totally up to you if you want to stick with a short am, long pm routine. Happy to help with that if you want to? Or whether you want to go back maybe to trying A times? A typical routine at this age might be WU 7, nap 10-11.30, nap 2.30-4 and BT 7. But I would probably do as you did yesterday if you do that and start by having a few days following cues/observing and then pick an A time and stick to it. When you start seeing UT naps (usually 45 mins to 1h20, though my DS has had a lot of 50 minute/1h OT naps so use your judgement) then push the A time 10 mins or so and hold there a few days before making more changes.
Thoughts?
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When LO wakes up every 45 mins of the night or every 1.5 I don't BF at every waking. If she is up every 3-4 hours then i do. When u don't get proper sleep for such a long time, u just don't have enough energy to fight any more. I know it is a bad habit and will try to fix it when my husband goes on vacation In two weeks. But how do you decide when to BF at night? She used to respond to pat only but not anymore, that's why I resorted to BF...
I like that typical routine and will try to work towards it. I want to try different A times.
Since i started this topic things have changed. My LO is more sleepy then ever during the day. Her A time dropped, she can hardly handle 2 hours. I don't know a reason for it: is it the routine change, growth spurt or accumulated OT. And she is getting in overdrive easier and is getting harder to settle... Have to watch her very closely not to miss that window, she is hard to read...
if she is BF before bedtime and her eyes are wide open, she puts up a fight and refuse to go down. If she is BF with her eyes closed, she goes down easy. What do I do if she is not sleepy at BT? Do I still go for it or do I wait a bit and try 15 mins later?
Per typical routine if she sleeps more than 1.5 do i need to wake her? Looks like this a.m. her A 2.10 after a very rough night (my fault, we had friends over and i missed the window). She is almost at 1h30 now...
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(((Hugs))), I know how tiring it can be. How about just aiming not to feed any earlier than you did the night before? I had great success with this. First night he woke at 23.15 and I fed. Next night he woke at 22.00 and I resettled. And resettled again every 15 mins or so until he woke again at 23.15. I tried one more resettle thinking at least I'd have pushed the feed on 15 mins.....and next woke at 3.40am!
The way you describe her at bedtime I wonder if she goes down easy when she's exhausted, but when she is tired and in second wind mode she fights and fights? Personally once I've started BT routine I continue it. If I get protest I just use walk in, put down, walk out as needed until they settle. I've never taken them out once I've put them into bed. I guess if you think she is really not ready you could spin out the BT routine a bit - so extra 5 mins in bath, extra 5 mins stories etc that way routine stays solid but you can adjust the timings.
I would let a nap go up to 2h and only cap the second one if it's likely to interfere with bedtime.
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Thank you. I will try to that with BF at night. Actually i tried this night and failed...
Sunday a.m. A was 2h10, she slept 1h20, i did same A for second nap and got screaming in return. She doesn't stop screaming even if she is held and rocked. After 20 mins i BF ( first time ever to settle for nap), she ate both breasts, little cry when put down and fell asleep. So Second A ended up being 2h30
Monday i kept a.m. A at 2.10 and reduced the second A by 15 mins. Started at 1h55 A (she doesn't show sleep signs but gets fussy) , she tried to settle for 5 mins and went screaming. After 20 mins of on and off crying I took her out of the room. She got quiet... In 10 mins i brought her back in her room, closed the blinds, turn on white noise and started a lullaby....she got fussy, as soon as i put her down she went screaming... She finally fell asleep at A 2h40. Slept 1h40
Third nap as soon as i started lullaby she went screaming. I put her in a hammock and in 10 mins ( A 2h02 ) she was out. I woke her up after 40 mins...
She is getting impossible to resettle. She was up 3 times during the night ( and one time she resettled herself). Started with whining and went into screaming. After 20 mins of trying i BF. The second and third awake she didn't fall asleep after nursing. Took her and me another 20 mins...
I do not pick her her up to resettle anymore as it doesn't help at all.
After waking up she cries when I leave the room, she hasn't done that before either...
Just when i thought it couldn't get worse...
I increased her a.m. A by 10 mins this morning and got a little fight in return. She fell asleep in 5 mins after i put her down. I had to hold her buttom so she doesn't flip over and put white noise close to her...sometimes it does wonders :)
She goes down easy when she is tired. If she is OT she fights and goes in overdrive. I am not sure what a child does when UT? May be she fights when she is UT as well?
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Her A time is very short so I need a cat nap, what if I try and let her sleep as long as she wants (up to 2 hours) for both naps? May be that will eliminate the cat nap?
When i was doing LSN routine she was going down much easier :) and resettling was easier as well :) although she was grumpy all the time...
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Dropping some support if you need me Lana. So what routine you follow right now?
Re the routine you followed before (so called for LSN), this nap capping after 20min is build on the assumptions that child sleep from 7 till 6/7. Your LO was going down very late (8/9) what resulted is a shorter night a probably not so restful for him. Late BT was probably a result of very late catnap which should end much earlier these days. I would have to check, but I guess that in routine keeping a 3rd nap is crucial until the age of 9/10mo, even if it means cutting the noon nap. And the catnap should be before 5pm.
I would say that you should look for a grey area, not thinking black and white. Letting him sleep as much as he wants is fine, but extending the day length by making naps longer can also be a trap.
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I'm thinking those second naps were UT fighting you. 2h is a short A for 6 months, 3h would be more typical. I can understand her having a shorter first A right now but after a fairly good nap I'd have done a longer A, 2.5h at least. Without A times of closer to 3h though you can't really do without a CN....if you want to aim for an EASY routine you need to get pushing the A times a bit really.
Agree with Marta that your late BT probably didn't help your previous routine. If you and LO preferred it you could always return to that but wake from lunchtime nap at 2h to get a CN in and bed at 7 (though personally speaking at this age I'd have thought the catnap isn't the way to go) or leave to sleep at lunchtime, skip CN and do an early bedtime instead of e.g. 6.30pm.
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Thank you, ladies, for your input.
Martii85, we spent in a car 50 mins in a.m and 50 mins in the p.m. I could not stop her from falling asleep there and thus continuing her nap... I didn't know the details about that routine, but was desperate to do smth and get her to nap before the school run to avoid screaming in a car. I know i messed up and trying to fix it now. Aiming for a regular routine with 2 naps 1.5 and i could never put her to bed earlier. She was fighting and would not settle till at least 20.20 p.m. The earliest BT i got was 19.15
Jessmum, she doesn't show sleep signs but gets fussy when tired. She was extremely grumpy and just kept whining wherever u put her. She was quiet only when being held and that's why I tried putting her down earlier... Yesterday i put her in a stroller before the second nap, she was sleepy by naptime and went down at A 2h20 and slept 2 hours, i woke her up. Her nights are terrible right now, she is up crying every 1h20-1h30. I BF her every other wake up. She takes good naps during the day and wakes up happy... May be she is making up for lots of NW..
I am trying to extend her A time but afraid to go too fast. I put her down at A 2h20 this a.m., she did mantra cry for about 10-15 mins and fell asleep at A 2h40. I came to wake her at 1.5 but she was up already and smiling. Will try same A 2h40 for second nap and will cut it at 1.5.
I never could make BT early. If BT is before 7 p.m. she wakes up 1-2 sleep cycles later and do not resettle. May be i can just never get her A right from cat nap to BT... If she goes for her second nap at 2 p.m. today and sleeps 2 hours i will try BT at 6.30 per your advice... Fingers crossed...
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Sorry, but I failed again. Cannot do early BT, cannot resettle her...
Here is our EASY, i know her A time is not at 3 hours yet but i was hoping to see at least some improvement but our nights keep going downhill
Bad night, up every 1.5, hard to resettle..
WU 7.03
A 7.03-9.43 (2h40)
E 7.15
S 9.43-11.10 (1h30) i came in her room at 11.15, she was awake and smiling
E 11.15
A 11.10-14.00 (2h50)
S 14.00-15.30 took her 20 mins to fall asleep, cried and woke up by herself crying as well
E 15.30
A 15.30-18.45 (3h15) put her in bed at 18.20, cried
E 18.00
BT 18.45
NW 19.35-19.55 i BF her and that did not help
NW 20.05 ... Cried for about 10 mins, i had to jiggle the bed to keep her quiet, i stopped jiggling, she started rolling, in 15 mins started crying again and i took her out...
Can you tell me what i did wrong here? Did i hold her too long before BT? I put her in bed at A 2h50, took her 25 mins to fall asleep and she slept 50mins only.
Should i do all three A 3h tomorrow?
All in all she is more happy during the day but became very hard to resettle and put to sleep
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(((Hugs))) you didn't fail :-* these LOs are not machines, the correct 'input' does not necessarily equal the right 'output' :)
Is there anything going on besides sorting the routine? Cold? Teeth? Tummy troubles?
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Honestly, i don't think smth is going on here. I don't see any teeth as yet. She eats well...
We did 3h A yesterday and 2 1h30 mins naps, BT 7.10 p.m. She woke up every 1h30 all night long. I was helping her to resettle and it was taking us about 15-20 mins. Resettle was easier then before, less screaming and more mantra crying. She was pretty good throughout the day and was going down much easier as well. I BF her every other wake up at night, tonight will try to eliminate one BF.
What do u think?
How long do I stay on 3h A time before I can assess the results? And how do I change the routine if our nights do not improve? Thank you.
I always need to have a plan, otherwise i will lose my mind. I am supprised i can function after such a long sleep deprivation. And the only place where i can find support and understanding is here... And that is so important...
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Wakings that frequent suggest to me prop, overtired or discomfort. From the day you posted I wouldn't think overtired, sounds perfect to be honest. I guess there is a chance for a very LSN baby that they could be UT wakings?? But usually UT wakings would be a long cot party, not frequent waking all night long.
When you don't BF at night how do you settle her? Does she ever settle herself?
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When i don't BF at night I do whatever works. She cannot sleep face up and when she is trying to settle she flips over from her tummy on her back and starts crying, so first I flip her back on her tummy and press on her bottom so that she doesn't flip any more (that and little pat used to put her back to sleep but not anymore), make white noise louder, rub her head, whisper to her that she needs to sleep, if she puts her head down i just stand there and wait, holding her buttom. I introduced a muslin lovey to her so I give a bunny ear to chew on and it does help her to calm down. If her head is up and crying, i start giving a little jiggle to the bed and she usually puts her head down and gets qiet, i stop jiggling and wait... Jiggle is a new thing but I am desperate and do whatever i can to avoid all that fight. I want to see how much sleep she actually needs even with a prop. I would then work on elemintating the props... Don't know if that is the right road to go though..
She does selfsettle around 5-6 a.m. every day for the past week or so.
I got her a new pj, we lowered the temperature in the house, i put Benadryl on her mosquito bites in case if that is a problem.
This a.m. She was so tired that she fell asleep within a minute after i put her down A 2h52. I carry her around the house for about 15-20 mins before putting her down and so far this works and she gets relaxed and doesn't fight much if she fights at all. So with her being so tired this morning may be she does have an accumulated OT from all those NW.
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My inclination would be to deal with the potential props, actually. Without independent sleep it can be really hard to see where routine may be causing issues. She will be more tired if she isn't getting a proper nights sleep, and if she needs your help for some time every time she wakes she will be losing out on rest. I would give some consideration to sleep training at night as I don't think you will get a real sense of her sleep needs without it.
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Agree with Katherine.
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So you suggest PU/PD?
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Update. I started pushing her A to 3.15 and the nights are getting better. Not great yet, but much better and she is so much easier to settle :)
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That's great news :). When you are ready you can use PUPD, shh pat (or a variation) or just sit by the cot and reassure using your voice/gentle back rub as needed, then gradually reduce the amount you do x
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Thank you Katherine. Shh/pat doesn't work anymore, i place my hand on her and use white noise. She still needs my hand. When the routine is more stable i will start reducing "hand" time. That was our day yesterday. I feed her every 4 hours.
WU 7.05
A 7.05-10.20 (3h15)
S 10.20-11.50 (1h30)
A. 11.50-15.05 (3h15)
S. 15.05-16.20 (1h15) i woke her as it looks like she needs A at least 3h30 before BT
A. 16.20-19.55 (3.35)
BT 19.55
NW. 22.30 BF, back to sleep
NW. 2.40 BF back to sleep
WU 7.25 she woke up crying (my alarm died and we overslept)
What do u think?
Oh, looks like if she goes to bed UT, she will fight hard and goes into OT, that's why I postpone her BT as she doesn't look tired enough.
And she had long quiet night wakings about 1h30 mins each two nights in a row around 3-5 a.m. when she had 2 naps 1h30. I cut her last nap to 1h15 2 days now and no long NW.
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That doesn't look too bad :) maybe a touch OT at bedtime (remember if you have capped the nap she may not need as long of an A time afterwards as if she had woken naturally rested) but I would say you are starting to get a good sense of what she needs. How are you finding the routine is working for your family?
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Thx for your follow up. This routine works good for us although we are getting more NW. I pushed her A yesterday to 3.30 but we still got NW. She went easy to 3.30 and was happy all day which is very unusual for her. Here is what we got yesterday
WU 7.00
A 7.00-10.27
E bf 7.30, solids 8.30
S 10.27-11.57
A 11.57-15.26
E bf 12.00, solids 13.00
S 15.26-16.30
A 16.30-19.30 (3h)
E bf 16.30, 19.00
BT 19.30
NW 22.15- 22.35 crying, bf, sleep
Nw 1.15-1.30 woke up quietly, started crying when i tried to resettle with my hand and loud white noise
NW 3.15-3.45 played quietly for 15 mins,bf, sleep
Nw 6.30 she went back on her own till i woke her
Wu 7.00
What do u think?
I would like to stay on 3.30 and may be do some tweaking if necessary. On her late NW she wakes quietly but some time later gets fussy. Sometimes she resettles herself. She has a little cold right now and like 10 mosquito bites again (i put benedryl on her before bedtime) if that plays any role in her NW.
May be i should cut BF at night to 1?
What else can be done?
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The day looked pretty textbook to be honest, it could be the last A was bit too much for her, or that in fact she would prefer a longer pm nap, some babies do seem to be like that. Colds can definitely upset night sleep, as can any sort of reliance on you to resettle. May be worth trying to cut that BF around 22.00, I can't imagine she's actually hungry then if she fed well at BT? I know people often say quiet/long NWs around 3/4ish are UT but I'm not sure that's the only reason. I wouldn't have said her daytime sleep was excessive, not unless she is really LSN? But what's your feeling?
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I am at such a loss right now. I just cannot find what is right for her. She gets fussy when tired but before BT she doesn't show anything at all just keeps playing happily and when I try to put her by the book/clock she puts up a fight and goes in overdrive and there is basically nothing that can put her to seep at that point untill she is completely exhausted and relaxes at BF. ( can take several BF attempts) . I am afraid putting her UT more than anything else.
She was doing pretty good at A 3.15 ( a bit OT at BT as you say) for 3 days, but then she started cutting her naps at 1.10-1.25 or had quiet long NW. So i tried A 3.30 and it was good for 1 day, the same daytime routines but BT and night became a disaster. Day 1 she was tired after A 3h before BT and to sleep easy, day 2 no tired signs and I tried the same time as day 1 and got a fight with screaming. The longer I try to settle her, the more angry she becomes and the longer she will stay awake and she will not even nurse at that point, just keep screaming.
Oh, i am having a very hard time resettling her if she goes from UT to OT.
She can handle 1 BF at night I think and i was gonna try it but with our nights so crappy i want to wait.
You say longer p.m. nap. What do you mean? Cut the a.m. nap?
It does look like she is catching up on her a.m. nap for a poor night sleep...
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I am afraid to try PU/ PD or any other alternative at this point. When she gets overworked she is inconsolable, starts shaking... I tried it a couple of times and gave up after 30 mins of constant screaming, she keeps screaming even if you hold her, rock her, swing her, trying to nurse...
What else can i do at this point?
Let me add that I do try to remove my hand from her as soon as I can if she looks relaxed and tired. And before i BF at night I try to settle her first with my hand, but i give up after 5 mins if I see that it is going nowhere.
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(((Hugs))), I know how frustrating it can be. My DS was really hard work at night no matter what I tried until 9/10 months, he still doesn't sleep through reliably even now (but is far better) but the things that made the biggest difference for us were cutting the night feeds once he was ready (he didn't need a feed to settle, but definitely had some habit night feeds which I had to actively wean) and being totally consistent with how we dealt with NWs. It is so hard to tell whether routine or something else is up if LO frequently needs your help, particularly nursing to settle at NWs, at least that's what I found. My feeling was if I could eliminate hunger as a reason for waking, and I could be sure I wasn't APing in a different way (rocking, holding etc) then I could more confidently try to tweak the routine. Now you are at a tricky age in that respect as one or two night feeds would be totally normal for a 6 month old. But I do think at least one long stretch is reasonable to expect.
So with feeds, I can't remember if I said before but I would personally just try not to feed any earlier than you did the previous night. So if night one is 10pm, night two you settle all wakings before 10pm (including if it takes you past that time before she settles) and then feed at the next one. Doing that in literally a day or two we moved our feed from 10/11pm to 3.30/4 in the morning! In terms of settling, DS did not respond to me intervening much at all, it only served to wind him up even more. So I decided the best course for him was just to 'be' with him, rather than 'do' anything, because ultimately what I wanted was for him to settle himself, not for me to have to do anything. So I would sit/lie beside his cot, occasionally shhh, maybe put a hand on his hand or back to calm him or stroke his hair, but not pick him out of the cot. Once calm I tried to leave, but sometimes if but went on a while I stayed until he slept and then left. It did take over an hour of full-on screaming on a few occasions but subsequent times were much much quicker, and he was never left alone, I was with him any time he was doing an 'I need you' cry.
The other thing that helped here was to really listen to him, his mantra/cross cry was extremely loud too but didn't necessarily require me to be in there. I'd definitely made the mistake of rushing in a bit too quickly and giving him more space seemed to help if he didn't really need me.
Routine wise does she manage those high A times easily or does she show sleep cues beforehand?
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Thank you so much for sharing your own experience! I started doing what you did about 2 weeks ago and it did help us a lot. She did have quite a bit of crying but i never left her alone and we made a big progress. We still have issues with BT from time to time because she doesn't have any sleepy signs. At nap time she is tired and i can see that but at BT she shows no tiredness at all and i have to guess...
Ok. She is 7 months tomorrow. And today was our first STTN! All day was not according to my plans but looks like it was a good thing :)
WU 7.00
A 3h30
S 10.30-12.00 she woke up by herself a bit grumpy
A 3h
S 15.00-15.40 she woke up screaming, i was not around and my husband just picked her up :) and took her out of the room
A 3.30
BT 19.05 after BF, she cried for about 2 mins, flipped on her tummy and fell asleep
NW 01.15 BF
WU 7.00
Several previous days her total sleep was around 12-13 hours ( if you count those NW and selfsettling/resettling) so my guess is that last night she was catching up ( she got total sleep in 24 hours 14h10mins ) I will try to repeat the routine today but not sure it will work if she caught up on her sleep. What do you think I should do next if she starts fighting BT again and do NW?
I am trying to think ahead as i know that she is catching up and i will have to adjust her routine pretty soon. Just want to have a back up plan as i have no idea what to do next if things go wrong again. See how pessimistic I am. Scared to lose what I got...
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second night after her perfect night didn't go so well. Untill BT our day went same way
WU 7.00
A 3h30
S 10.30-12.00
A 3h
S 15.00-15.40
A 3h15
BT 18.55
NW 19.40-20.10 took almost 30 min to resettle
NW 11.30, BF back to sleep
NW 5.03-6.15, played and cried, alternating. I BF her at 5.45, that did not help
S 6.15-7.50
WU 7.50
Tried to wake her at 7 a.m and had no luck: windows open, fan is running, i am talking loud next to her, touching her, she cryied out, turn on the other side and kept sleeping. Never happened like that before!!! She doesn't even respond to her sister trying to play with her!!!
Woke up on her own at 7.50, happy.
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At least she woke happy this morning :) she may still be dealing with some OT build-up, I finder it takes more than one good day to get back on track xx
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Why do u think she is still OT? Her BT was 15 mins earlier then on her perfect day, plus she got a long NW ( although she was not too happy about it, kept rolling, sucking on her bunny, cried from time to time).
And what should I do? Stick to the routine I had on a perfect day or do some changes?
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Early NWs are usually over tiredness here, that's why I wondered :). The 'perfect' day she had a long A after a short afternoon nap, we often get seemingly better nights on those kind of days because LO crashes out, the early NWs seem to happen for us when there is OT but not total exhaustion if you see what I mean? It's also worth just reminding ourselves occasionally that babies aren't robots (I am guilty of forgetting this sometimes....) so the same input doesn't necessarily equal the same output in terms of sleeping xx