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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: jessmum46 on June 24, 2015, 05:26:41 am
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Just starting a new thread for some more eyes, hope that's ok.
B is nearly 13m, had a rough couple of weeks with teeth/illness and starting nursery but now well and not bothered by teeth as far as I can tell. We have unfortunately got stuck with early wake ups, perhaps not true EWs but too early for me!
We had previously been aiming for set nap around 11.30/45 as this fits with the usual nursery day, it wasn't working brilliantly but we were getting by with the odd CN in the morning to get to set time if he woke too early. Now it's not working as he is OT by set nap time and if nursery put him down sooner (which tbh they have done most days as they felt he was ready to sleep) they won't wake him so he gets two short naps. I can still get a CN and 'set' time to work ok-ish but seems a tad pointless in a way given nursery aren't pushing him to that time.
WU anywhere from 5-5.45, but typically 5.30ish
Up at 6 - he will happily play for 15-20 mins then start shouting, I will go in but try to just lie on floor/minimal interaction then lights on at 6. In an ideal world I'd love a 6.30 start but will accept 6.
Nursery days - two short naps of 15-50 mins, one mid-am and one mid-pm (Mon, Thu, Fri)
Home - short CN (15 mins max) in the morning at ~9.30 if he will then nap at 11.30/45 with varying success - often waking after 50/55 mins and resettling after quite a fight, total anywhere from 1h30 to 2h50 but broken
BT 6-6.30ish
Some early NWs most nights
Looking at that I'm guessing lack of consistency is a big factor.....but I just don't see nursery pushing him to 11.30/45 from such an early WU, not to mention there is no way they would resettle him if he woke early.
What to do? Two naps doesn't seem to work well any more. I think he needs one nap but 11.30/45 is too late right now. Would it be reasonable to pull nap back to 11am and ask nursery to get him as close to that as they can? Then push forward in 10/15 minute increments? Pull BT in earlier too or will that just reinforce the early starts?
Help appreciated xx
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Hi lovely, I remember this age and nursery well....we had the same issues! I ended up putting my foot down and saying no nap before 11 and if he misses the lunch slot give him it when he wakes up. They kept letting DS nap at 9 then trying again at 11.30 after lunch which was just giving 2 short naps.
If they agree to earlier long nap could u do a 20 min CN about 4pm ish to maintain normal BT? I recall at this age we often got DS home from nursery gave him a quick bath and in bed by 5.30 as he was so shattered. xx
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Thanks Zoe I really appreciate some btdt, we obviously went through it with DD but she was always a 6.30/7 waker so much easier to push through to one set nap time. DS loves his 5am!
Ok so do you think for consistency I should ditch the morning CNs at home and just shoot for 11am earliest nap? I can always offer a late pm CN if it's a bust, he will tend to refuse but I can always give it a go.
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My DS still loves 5.30...! Id ditch the morning CN if it was me and shoot for 11am at least you might get a long nap then if CN doesn't happen later EBT.
I just stuck with the mid morning nap as DS was rubbish was a morning CN I could never get a decent nap later on. xx
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Thanks hun we'll give it a go and I'll update in a few days, wish me luck convincing nursery!!
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Ha ha good luck I know what they can be like xx
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Hi there sweet Katherine,
Agreed... skip CN. I guess you're in the throws so we'll see how that went/goes.
I did the same and it seemed to have helped get DS adjusted to one nap, but who really knows. We are finally around a 6 WU, with 7 BT, but sometimes earlier WU. =/ Going to try pushing BT to 7:30. Fwiw, the sleep consultant I used said to definitely push through the morning CN. She also said to push nap closer to 12:30, but on this one, I went with cues and DS goes down between 11:30-12:30 depending on the night/WU, but BT is always close to 7 (also by her advice).
But every night/morning is still different for us so all we can do is try and see, right? Hope that helps and I do realize it's really difficult to maintain consistency with nursery and all the other stuff sweet B went through. So considering, I think you're doing the best you can! HUGS!
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If they agree to earlier long nap could u do a 20 min CN about 4pm ish to maintain normal BT?
This sounds like a good plan to me. We had very similar issues when DD started daycare. It's just ugly when they start as they go through the 2-1 isn't it? Like Zoe's little guy we also had days where it was home, supper, and bed by 5:30 because she was so tired. I honestly can't say if it was any one thing that I did that sorted it out. I really wasn't very consistent and things eventually sorted themselves out after about 6-8 weeks.
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Thanks ginger and lily for dropping by with encouragement, I really appreciate it :)
The CN is tricky around 4, he tends to refuse it ::) I can always get nursery to offer, if he's that exhausted he'll take it I guess. That said yesterday we told nursery no nap before 11am, they ended up pushing him through until after lunch so 11.40! He slept 1h15 which is short but for nursery, I'll take it. BT was a bit too late just after 6pm but after one brief OT WU he slept through to 5.30am, then resettled for another 15 mins doze (I think). First time in a while he's been willing to lie back down so maybe we might get somewhere....will update soon x
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Ok so not much improvement here :(. Nursery have been pushing him to 11.30/45 so for consistency's sake we've done the same, but that's meaning a good 6h or so first A, obviously too long. One day he fell asleep in the pushchair at 9.45, I woke him after 15 mins and he still went down at 11.30 and slept for 1h50.
Nap has been 1h15 to a broken 2h10. I feel like some super EBT may be in order but am nervous about it...B has rarely done 12h nights ever.....what would you do?
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Urgggg sounds hard. Is prob do a SEBT just to see what happens, my DS only ever did 12-13hr nights at the 2-1 transition but he's generally an 11 hour night guy. Can nursery go for 11.15am nap just for a few days!?
Can he be resettled at an EW? xx
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Can't resettle the EW, I have tried! If it's pre-5am then yes, usually. But any time after that pretty much no chance. He faffs and chats to himself for a while then just gets cross and wants up. We are still keeping him in his room until 6, he will lie down sometimes for a few mins then just pops back up again. I don't have the strength to try much longer than 6, on work days I need to start getting ready and I'm also conscious of him disturbing DD.
Nursery can basically do just before 11 or 11.30/45. They serve lunch at 11 so it's a question of manpower/supervision. So annoying!
OK maybe I will bite the bullet and try for 5.30pm tonight. He's at nursery so it's likely to be a short nap. Argh I feel like all he needs to do is just sleep a bit later one time and then day will be shorter and we can break this cycle.
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I remember it so well....used to drive me mad with trying to get them to alter nap times! Will he have an early CN at say 10.30 at nursery then a big nap of they put him down at 12.30/1pm?
I'm sure I did my back in laying on DS floor for an hour at the age!!
Maybe if u do the SEBT and he wakes pre 5am u can have a chance of resettling then ??? Xxx
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I'll let you know how it goes x
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Fingers crossed xx
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Blah my mum was here, looked totally incredulous when I said I was going to put him down for 5.30 and I let myself be swayed ::) >:( he was out for 6 though and already had two NWs :( :(. I'm trying to see that as a positive....previous nights he's been so exhausted he's crashed so maybe not quite so OT? Maybe?? clutching at straws.....?? ;D
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Keep clutching ;D you just never know mum might be right :)
Maybe the NW this early will mean he gets into a nicer sleep for the rest of the night x
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Well after an unsettled first 3h with short NWs on and off, he slept until 5.20. So same WU time but I guess half an hour or so more sleep which can't be a bad thing.
Would I be mad given the restriction of the nursery routine to do set nap 11.30/45 and set BT 6/6.30, erring on the earlier side for bedtime until either WU or nap improves? I hate the guessing and trying to do catch up days as it almost always backfires.
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Hi Katherine
Just reading through this I agree and I think I'd give set nap at 1130/45 and set BT at 6/630 a go for a few days. You said yourself that his routine isn't that consistent from one day to the next. At least if you try something consistently for a few days, to let it settle in iyswim, then it might help you see what (if anything) needs tweaking. Does that make sense?
((Hugs)) EWs suck
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Agree might as well try it Hun xx
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Ok will do. He doesn't nap too badly at nursery (J was awful!) so may just work. Got a great nap today, 2h40 after a quick resettle just after an hour. So 6.30pm we will try x
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Good napping, hope the nights a good one x
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You and me both!! Have also gone a bit crazy with the tinfoil and blackouts :D
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Hope it does the trick!
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Lol u make me giggle x
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Hello Hon! Just sending some hugs! And totally agree - push at nursery and let him get used to sleeping longer. FYI we are now getting 2h nap at nursery with 12noon PD and still 12h night (11h probably + settling + lying down in the morning. And you know what a tragedy I had with DS not sleeping in the nursery for months. Great we are there today and you will also be there:).
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Hehe. You made me laugh, too. And it totally reminded to fix our blackout curtains! I forgot to do that before he went to bed. Oh well. There's a faint streak of light at the top, but I think when DS sees it, he thinks he can get up. No my dear boy, you shouldn't! ;D
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Hope you had a good night and didn't start today too early?
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Well it wasn't great, not sure why?? Accumulated OT?
WU 5.20
Up at 6
Nap 11.30-14.10 (quick resettle at 12.35)
BT 6.30
Some early NWs then slept until 4.30am :( heard him mumble/chatter on and off every 15 mins or so until 5.15 then was definitely awake. After a drink of water and a quick WIWO he was quiet/the odd chatter again until just before 6. So best case scenario he was dozing most of that time, worst case up since 4.30 :( :(
Pushed him to 11.30 anyway.....mood wasn't awful, a bit cranky and looked shattered by the time nap came around though.
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So best case scenario he was dozing most of that time, worst case up since 4.30 :( :(
FXd is wasn't up since 4.30. There's no way mine would have been happy alone for that long if they weren't dozing at least.
is it hot in his room? could that be affecting things?
Hope you get a good nap x
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Oh yes it's boiling :( not a lot I can do about it sadly. He's only in a nappy plus one tog sleeping bag so other than losing the sleeping bag not sure how else I can cool him down. Nap is a bust too :( :( heat really can't be helping.
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Bless the heat is muggy today as well which isnt helping. Are teeth on the move?
If its any consolation DS was awake at 5.30 this morning and took ages to fall asleep last night so he will be a nice grumpy mess when I get him from nursery x
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0,5tog sleeping bag? Grobag produces it.
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Wrap him in one of those things you use to keep wine cool?! (Joking) 1h10 nap in the end, wouldn't resettle so I can only assume he did doze until 6 this morning as can usually resettle if A long enough. Mood not too bad, EBT and try again tomorrow :)
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Hi Katherine. Just checking in. Is there no chance of nursery pushing that nap time?
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They put them all down together at 11.30/45ish, so no not really. 12ish is pretty much the latest they ever do. I'm ok with 11.30/12 though, in an ideal world we'd do a 6.30-6.30 day so it's the same as a 12/12.30 nap on a 7-7 routine. Pretty standard I think?
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Sorry, my bad, I thought you were on a 7-7 routine like us. E's nap is at 12.30 at the mo. She'll sleep off earlier as well but we get a short nap
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No problem hun :-* Pretty sure our short ones have been OT though, just not as crashingly OT as normal!!
Anyway......this morning I got a resettle, yahoo!!! Went back from 6ish to 7.15 :D. He's at nursery so no idea what will happen but at least it won't be a long day. Fingers crossed this is the start of his body clock catching on :)
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Wohooo great stuff x
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Yay! FX! :-*
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Yay! You so needed that! Long live the 7am WU!
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Yay for the 7.15 WU! Seems like things are moving in the right direction. How was this morning ?
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Ah well it's all gone to pot ::) he seems to be really suffering with teeth again :(. Two late mornings and then a really bad night with very restless early morning today. Oh well. Fingers crossed it passes soon *yawn*
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Teeth have a lot to answer for, my DS suffered loads from 14-17 months x
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Oh no :(
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But they're almost done! Hugs hugs hugs, Katherine. This is an awful phase. BLAH!
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Blah indeed. Sleep has been RUBBISH the last few days. We had two later WUs then all fallen apart. Multiple NWs, some were incredibly hard to settle even with pain meds and then complete nap time fails. Saturday he woke at hideous o'clock after a really bad night, fell asleep for 5 mins mid-morning on my mum, slept 30 mins at lunchtime and wouldn't resettle (DH tried for an hour) and then crashed in the pushchair around 4.30pm. Yesterday he had a 2.5h nap but woke and resettled 4 times during the course of it. What on earth?? DH did an early BT then he was up probably 5-6 times before we went to bed, then twice more overnight, and stirring on/off from just after 5 this morning :(. I'm not even sure what time he really woke, we seem to be getting a quick cry out, a brief mumble/chatter then quiet for a few minutes, then repeat until at some point he starts to make noise more constantly which was just before 6 today. So could be dozing, he was certainly lying down when I went to him, but I don't know.
Ugh feeling defeated :(. This can't just be OT, really can it? It's got to be discomfort? His 4th molar is partially cut and has moved up a lot in the last week. Also he got both top canines a month ago so I'm guessing the bottom ones won't be too far behind. But what if I'm just totally wrong and he's exhausted?
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What is going on!? I agree there is more to this than meets the eye. Meds would help with the discomfort, wouldn't it? Do you think some of this could be because of your return to work (sorry sorry) I just remember one case study that Tracy had listed which said that major changes can lead to sleep havoc. Eris seemed to not need any milk at night but recently won't settle without some. WDYT?
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You would think meds would help.....but I've had two thoughts on that front. One was that meds didn't touch DDs pain during 2y molars and she in general handled teething far better than B has, and two, he's a big boy so 'standard' dosing may not be as effective for him. *not advising anyone to do anything other than follow manufacturer's instructions* but with my professional background I may see if I can give him a (safe) bigger dose, even just as a one-off to see. I also got hold of some anbesol liquid today which I've heard a few good reports about compared with teething gels.
I offer him water at night if he wakes but nothing else, I'm no longer breastfeeding and he's not overly interested in milk otherwise. Plus I don't really want to go there with nights feeds at this age.
Could it be my return to work? I guess that could have a role. Some separation in the mix for sure. But causing 6/7/8 NWs? I don't see how that could be.
Ugh so fed up.
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Oh Hun yuk yuk that sucks.
Personally I'd go teeth over the return to work as my DS suffered terribly with teeth....nothing worked! I accidentally gave him extra ibuprofen one night and that got slightly less NW. x
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Oh no! :o
I feel like B's sleep has been disrupted too much for too long despite all your efforts to help him. I feel your exasperation, K. So sorry. Major hugs.
Your theories are well thought-out. I'd like to add that perhaps his pain threshold is different. I happen to have a very low pain threshold for internal ailments. Not by choice... I just feel everything... even when I ovulate, and aches when weather pressure changes, etc...
SA is also a culprit and wouldn't discomfort exacerbate it?
Poor B and his mama. Praying for relief for you all asap!
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Thanks all, the support and commiseration helps even if we can't seem to sort his sleep right now. One day I'll be prising him out of bed in the mornings, got to hold onto that!
He had two naps today at nursery which I'm actually quite glad about, 1h10 this morning and 50 mins this afternoon. Had a bit of a temperature and seemed shattered when I collected him though so he's gone off to bed (asleep for 6.10) with a big (safe) dose of calpol and some anbesol on his gums. We'll see how things go overnight :)
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Poor little munchkin let's hope a tooth pops through soon. xx
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aw, hope he slept well and is feeling a bit better today. with a temp it def sounds like teeth/illness doesn't it.
((hugs))
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Hugs for you and B. How is he feeling now? Did he sleep okay?
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I bet it's the darn teeth Katherine. When A cut her 4 upper incisors at the same time this past month she woke every hour for a couple of nights. Pain meds were only able to take off the edge and not to eliminate the pain entirely. The slight temperature also points to that. How is he now?
Yes, you will have to literally drag him out of bed to go to school in a few years indeed. My mom used to find new inventive ways to get us out of bed all the time. But my best alarm clock was my cat who would go nuts in front of the door to let her out to eat breakfast when she heard my mom calling the other cats down stairs. LOL There was no way to ignore her.
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Better night last night but still up early, I got a resettle for half an hour or so. In bed for nearly 3h for nap but took four resettles in that time so maybe 2h-2h15 broken sleep :( drooling literally buckets. Will not let me near his mouth at all to brush teeth, just clamps shut and cries. I'm guessing the other two canines are on the move. Plus he's now come out in a rash which could be due to low platelets as a post-MMR reaction which means I can't use ibuprofen >:( >:( for goodness sake!
Sorry this is becoming a woe-is-me teething thread ::) but he truly is horrific at it! And so many teeth!
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How long would he sleep if you let him nap in the morning? My ODD loved her morning nap and slept the best for it. She went to 1 nap around 13-14 months but was so OT when we tried to push her to even 12. She would usually sleep for 2.5-3 hours (at 10/1030 from a 7am WU) so we just let her and then put her to bed 30min earlier than her usual BT. I just gradually moved her nap later in 15min increments. A friend of mine had to do the same thing with her ODD. My ODD never really had a problem with her naps from that point...she'll be 5 in September and will still nap if offered the chance:)
I got that idea from a book called "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child". By Marc Weissbluth, MD. As long as you can ignore his love of the CIO method, it contains a ton of useful information. He is a big supporter of the 5/530 BT too:) There are specific sections just for nap transitions.
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Tbh I don't know how long he'd sleep but I'd be surprised if it was a long one at the moment. Nursery have put him down early a few times and got anywhere from 30 mins to 1h15. So would certainly need a second nap but problem is he'll often refuse it if the first nap is decent enough. So although it's certainly an idea :-* and I appreciate your support :) I don't think it will work for us with nursery in the mix too.
Going to leave this thread for a bit......it was awful last night :( :( and he was up sooooooo early I don't even know when it was. Am just letting him sleep whenever today, I just can't face doing anything else. He's so OT now that I don't think anything but sleep, and lots of it, is going to dig us out of the hole we are in.
Thank you ladies for supporting me xxx
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Katherine - amazingly big hugs.
Point from me, please remember not to think about it so seriously Hon. I know OT kids are awful and I am so much like you panicking even before nap started, than when it is short - I will have a OT baby:D LOL. But on the other hand, they cope somehow. Ha - some kids sleep 8-9h at night and they parents think it is ok, and they still cope somehow.
With such a great and caring mother like you, I believe that you will figure it out or he will figure it out and one day (hopefully very soon) you will just have once again a happy and well-rested baby. For now maybe go with the flow and try to relax - rather than planning what to do.
And... You know that nursery (especially the beginning) it tough. We both know it. But it's just a phase - at this age, probably a short one because he is old enough to adapt quickly. Look at my posts from September when I was moaning about F in nursery not sleeping well. Gosh - nothing helped. But we survived, F is happy and coping amazingly well in nursery now. I am sure B will be fine very soon.
On the other hand, except from sleep - how he is doing there? What the nursery ladies tell you:)? Is he social? Is he eating well or rather a picky-little munchkin:)? Is he playing well there? Is he a small leader of the group or rather a friend-for-everybody type of a boy? Do they teach children something there? We have ie English lessons LOL where they are singing English songs - for sure F will be fluent soon:).
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Thanks Marta. It's just so tough right now, trying to work on no sleep and look after both LOs :( ugh I know I'm getting bogged down in sleep angst which is why I probably need to step away again. He is so gorgeous when not exhausted, that's what makes me so sad to see it. He has settled beautifully at nursery, loves his keyworker, doesn't cry much, plays nicely, eats ok, sleeps not too badly either. Such a little character! Thanks for reminding me to celebrate the positives xxx
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Hey katherine, just popping on to encourage you and to second what Marta says.
It is so hard though, especially when it's tough on the rest of the family. Would you be willing to sleep in his room for a while, just to get a bit more rest yourself?
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Thanks lovely :-*. I have done a couple of times from the early hours when he's been really unsettled :). Just seems easier at that time rather than risking waking him with squeaky door handles! There is a double bed in his room still so at least somewhere to rest comfortably. Trying desperately to avoid making any props though!!
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Martii- well said and I need to take your advice as well.
Katherine- it just sounds so hard right now and again, you have done and are doing the best you can. I think your action plan sounds great considering the circumstances... trying to follow his cues and let him rest when he needs it. We'll see you hopefully on the other side. HUGS HUGS HUGS until then.
Btw, my comment regarding that our LOs will "get it" no way implies that it's their fault. Poor LOs can't tell us what they need and want right now not to mention that they're little people in a big world filled with big life things thrown at them. I need to remember that they will be fine and we will be fine. (Easier said than believed over here). ;)
MORE HUGS!