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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: AMJ on July 06, 2015, 08:03:09 am
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Hi to all.
I had a very long post going here and I was advised to start a new one to get some fresh eyes on it.
DD is 2 years and 3 months. Our troubles started in December because of 1-0 transition. DD has either EWUs or NWUs. Tbh she was waking early almost all her life. I consider 10.5hrs a night very good night. She only had a hand full of 11hr night.
At this point her days look something like this:
WU between 5-5:30am.( We had even 3:50am WU after a NND with a BT of 6pm!!)
Crib 1:15 ish
Nap 1:30 ish for 30m (I wake her)
Wu 2:00 ish
Crib 6:30
BT 7:00
In the past week or so she's been having NWU every single night which last anywhere from 1.5hrs to 2+hrs. Some nights she wakes with a cry for mommy saying that she heard some noise or she lost her bunny or something happened to her hand(can't quiet figure out what happened to her hand but I assume she slept wrong on it so it felt numb). These NWUs moved her WU to 6ish am.
I'm not sure if she is OT or UT(but she always looks OT to me cause it is very hard to read her signs and now she is sporting her dark under eye circles again).
I tried giving her an uncapped nap and stick with short night/long nap days but her mood is horrible with this routine that's why I'm capping her nap. I tried capping at 1hr, 45m, 30m and 20m. For some time 30m gave us the longest 10.5hrs nights with some 11/11+hr night after NND but lately that's not happening. 20m nap gave us 10hr night. I try and keep her day 12hrs long after a NND so she has an EBT at around 5:30/6pm. Then she wake at 5/5:30am. In the past week or longer she has NWU every single night.
Yesterday her WU was at 7am because of an early morning NWU so I gave her an NND and crib at 6:30pm , BT at 7:00. I was really hooping for an 11+hr night but she is up right now from 2:50am for 1hr already either chatting or singing "5 little monkeys jumping on the bed" and jumping on the bed while laying down. I was thinking that maybe her 7pm BT yesterday was too late for her after NND, since her usual BT is at 7pm and she usually has an EBT 6pm the latest after NND, but I gave a 7pm BT because she was up at 7am that morning due to a NWU pushing the WU later. Oh I don't really know.
Another thing worth mentioning is that we recently moved from one country back to our country and are visiting my mom for a while. We were staying here for the last two summers so the surroundings are not completely new to DD but there is definitely lots going on with being around all the family members and new fun things. We will be moving to another province permanently in the future which could be in 2 months or it could be in 6 months so there is another change that's coming for her.
I really hope that this 1-0 will end soon and DD can have a 11/12hr of sleep every night. I would really appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
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From what I remember in our 1-0 transition at this age a 12 h day is too long for a nnd and it is very likely that your dd is already ot after 12 h. I remember that many people kept days at 11 h or even at 10 h when they had nnd with kids so young. We chose a long nap and short night because for us bt too early was not possible for out family routine.
The other thing is: how long are you trying a routine before you change it? For any routine you need a good week or more to see if it works. I would take one and try for sometimes. So if you decide to stick with nnd, I would do it for a week (and would keep day at 10.5-11 h). But a this age I would keep a nap, as my ds would not have coped without (but of course each kid is different). How long did you try with the uncapped nap/short night? As I know that when my ds was sleeping better and recovering accumulated OT, his behavior was terrible, and went better after few days.
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Hi
My dd dropped her nap at 2.5yo pretty much cold turkey. We were doing 20 min cn and 11.5h days but when cn messed with bt we went ct.
Nnds were as short as 10h days. We often had 5pm bts but my dd tacks onto night sleep and did 14h nights. When that stopped working for our family (ebts, short days etc) we set bt and let her self regulate as by then she had gotten used to nnds...
I agree with Barbara to stick with a routine for a good week or so...
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Hi Barbara thanks for your reply.
TBH it is really hard to keep her day 10/11hrs long on NND since she is already up so early. If she wakes at 5/5:30 am that means her BT will be anywhere from 3-4:30pm and that's just too early.
Sorry if I didn't explain correctly but we never completely dropped a nap rather did some NND alternating with ND and I sort of offered a NND when she had a good night and a good WU.
To answer your question we tried a long nap/ short night for a while and it really truly didn't work. I was advised to keep her day max 14hrs long after an uncapped nap but that resulted in 2.5/3hrs NWU.
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Hi Aishi thanks for your reply as well.
Oh wow 14hr nights!!! That's amazing. Dd doesn't deal with OT too well and doesn't tack on at night too often.
So I guess I should've given her a 5:30/6pm BT yesterday to keep her day 10.5/11hrs long! But how can I do that when she wakes at 5/5:30am usually?
What routine would you ladies suggest that I try? 30m naps and 7pm BT? Or add some NNDs?
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P. S. She just fell back asleep after being awake for 2hrs. Is she OT do you think?
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My thoughts may not fit with others but they are just thoughts.
Mine was always a short nighter and 5am waker too. For a long time I kind of accepted the early mornings although was always trying and hoping it would move later. Moving BT 15 min or 30 or even an hour did not move morning WU for him, his body clock was so strong for that WU time. What worked was moving him MORE than an hour (I planned on 2hrs I think he made his move at 1hr30). It was a rapid move because moving BT at all just meant lost sleep right up to the point where the need for sleep over-rode his body clock time and he finally slept later.
Now, I know you are not so much asking about how to move the early WU but the reason I mention it is because the ability to sleep *beyond* 5/5.30am seems to be so beneficial to overall sleep length and quality. 5am is that awful time when if there is any chance of LO waking they will, and then it's a really hard time to get back to sleep even if they need it. Once you get right past that time and stop the 5/5.30 WUs there is a much better chance of a decent restful sleep until about 7am.
What I'd do is give one uncapped nap then give a really late BT, like 8pm and the next day give an uncapped nap and move BT 8.30pm. And if WU continues to be 5/5.30 then I'd go again, long nap and 9pm BT. Once you reach 9pm (if not before) the morning WU should move. Then hold at the late BT a few days to ensure the morning WU stays later (creating a habit), then slowly bring BT earlier in 15 min increments to extend the night and at the same time you can reduce the nap length.
I probably wouldn’t do a BT earlier than 8pm until the nap is totally gone. If a LO is doing a later BT and WU IMO you have more chance of working with the transition.
Like I said, just my thoughts. I know it wouldn't be for everyone.
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Hi creations. That's definetely something we haven't a tried and I'm willing to try it! It is so weird but no matter were we are in the world she always goes back to the darn 5/5:30am!
Few questions:
- what time would you offer the uncapped nap at and should I move it later when I move the BT from 8 to 8:30 to 9 pm?
- And what if she keeps having those NWUs, do I just keep going?
- Also let's say it does work to move her WU later (fingers crossed) what routine would would you suggest after? 30m nap at 2:30pm and BT at 8pm assuming the WU will be 7/8am?
Thanks so much!!!
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I agree with Creations that until the nap is gone a 7 pm bt is probably too early. So, if you decide to move bt and wu as Creations suggested, and night does not lengthen, I would keep bt at 8-8.30 and offer a nap (30-60 min) until you cannot drop the nap completely and so bring bt to 7ish pm again. If now you have a 7 pm - 5/5.30 am night, I would aim for a 8 pm-6.30 am routine keeping the nap, this way you have a more decent wu.
Keep in mind that for many kids (mine for example) night length does not increase until the nap is consistently gone (the same way the single nap does not become long until you are consistently in the 1 nap routine), so for those kids alternating no nap and nap days does not work.
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It is so weird but no matter were we are in the world she always goes back to the darn 5/5:30am!
I can not say for sure but I would suspect this is because you generally put her to bed at 7pm even with the odd late night or EBTs for NNDs the general BT is 7 and she can only do a 10.5hr night so 5.30 WU it is.
To give you hope - mine only did 10.5hr nights (and dropped to much less during 1-0 transition) but after the nap was dropped he did lovely 12 hr nights until 4yo+ I only recently reduced night sleep to 11hr 45 and you can see he is almost 4.5yo!
I would say, if you want to try the big push to move BT and WU to more realistic times (which might have an end result of 8/8.30 - 6.30/7 say) then go for that first. See where you end up, and then you can follow the advice you feel most suitable from Barbara or Aishi or others. I see you said before that you can't keep a short day because it would result in a 3 - 4.30 BT which is just too early (and I agree), if you shift BT and WU then you *should * (FX) have a bit more leeway for EBTs as needed.
I'm hesitant to offer a definite routine as I don't really know what you've tried before or how your LO is.
What time are the NWs?
It might be worth a shot to just drop the nap CT once you have a late BT and WU because then EBT becomes a more reasonable time. I'm not a fan of days chopping and changing with a NND here and there and naps changing lengths etc, I don't manage well with it and DS doesn't either. He needed to know his routine was the same every day, and his night did not lengthen until he knew there was no nap and he needed to get his sleep all in one go at night - that doesn't happen on 1 or 2 NNDs, not for us anyway.
Or as Barbara said do a regular capped nap, I do think regularity is key.
I think we are saying the same Barbara :)
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Sorry I didn't answer these
- what time would you offer the uncapped nap at and should I move it later when I move the BT from 8 to 8:30 to 9 pm?
I'd do it regular time first then 30 min later as you move the BT out by 30 min
- And what if she keeps having those NWUs, do I just keep going?
Yes. It is not necessarily a solution to those NWs but it can't really get any worse can it? Just keep going.
What time are the NWs?
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thank you very much ladies! I will try moving her BT later but there is one thing I forgot to mention. Consistent uncapped naps not only lead to long NWUs but also to very EWUs. The night can be as short as 8.5/9hrs and that might prevent moving her WU later even with a 9pm BT. It might be ok for 1-2 days tops to leave her nap uncapped but after it's either NWU or EWU again (which means all I'm really doing is long day/short night).
today she WU at 6:45am because she was awake from 2:55am to 4:55am. And therefore I don't even know how to fit an uncapped nap and manage 8pm BT. I would imagine she would sleep max of 1.5hrs (just estimating), morning A is usually 7.5hrs so I hope she might go down at 7hrs if she is OT. That means her nap needs to be at 2pm ( usually it's at 1:30pm). Then if she naps for 1.5hrs she will WU at 3/3:30pm and after a such a long nap she will probably need 5.5-6hrs of A which means brings her BT to 8:30/9pm. Do you think I should just shoot for that right away?
Creations, she wakes at night anywhere from 12:30am to 3:30am and stays up usually for 2hrs, sometimes 1.5hrs.
With regards to her having consistent EWU I tried BT at 9pm, 8pm, 7:30 pm when we travelled to a different time zone but somehow her WU keeps moving earlier and earlier and that's why I keep moving her BT earlier and therefore her whole day shifts earlier and we are back to 5/5:30 WU. ???
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The night can be as short as 8.5/9hrs and that might prevent moving her WU later even with a 9pm BT. It might be ok for 1-2 days tops to leave her nap uncapped but after it's either NWU or EWU again
I think you've answered your own question here :) Don't forget, you are the mummy, you know her, you are the one who has been dealing with this throughout and you are the one who knows what is likely to happen. Trust your mummy instinct :) If you believe it will only work for a couple of days then do that. All the rest of us can do is look at times and make guesses based on our own experiences and threads we've supported in the past.
hen if she naps for 1.5hrs she will WU at 3/3:30pm and after a such a long nap she will probably need 5.5-6hrs of A which means brings her BT to 8:30/9pm. Do you think I should just shoot for that right away?
Yes why not? Just take advantage of the opportunity given to you in that later WU.
when we travelled to a different time zone but somehow her WU keeps moving earlier and earlier and that's why I keep moving her BT earlier and therefore her whole day shifts earlier and we are back to 5/5:30 WU.
Well, here you have also said it yourself, you "keep moving her BT earlier". If she can only do a 10hr or 10.5hr night then that's all she can do. It's not likely to change until she drops her nap completely so you are stuck on a perpetual cycle of her waking "early"(but chances are this is not "early" she has just finished sleeping and cannot sleep any more) so you put her to bed earlier so she wakes earlier so you put her to bed earlier. If you work with the times she *can* sleep BT can be later, it can.
If you want 7am WU then consistent 9pm BT (or even past 9pm initially to force the body clock to shift) should give it. If you feel 9pm is just too late for you then aim for 8.30 (that is after her body clock shifts) but don't expect WU to be later than 6.30am. *If* you get more than 11hr night then great, if not, well I'd just accept it. I know it sucks but you can't make her sleep any longer than she can sleep.
I do think getting past 5/5.30am is the hardest part, and you *might* end up with a slightly longer night as a result but I'd keep expectations low.
In fact, I know a lot of BW mummies say to do a 10 hr day and 14 hr night after nap drop...I'd actually wait until she showed she could do that before doing it. I'd personally look for more like 11.5hr night (making more than 12hr day!!) initially and then FX the night will lengthen to 12 over time. If there are a few 14hr nights then fine but IME with DS it wasn't more than a couple of random nights like that. I was happy to get 11.5 and even happier when it turned out to be 12hr.
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Thanks again creations!! You are so detailed it's awesome.
Now when I said that she will only do a 8.5/9hr night with a long nap, and therefore after 1 or 2 days of 9pm BT her WU will go back to 5/5:30am- that might not be long enough to brake the habit of waking at 5/5:30am. Is there anything else I could try? Moving BT by little never worked for her like it didn't for your LO.
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If you don't think starting with a long nap will work then don't do it. The suggestion of a longer nap was to help get through to a later BT to shift the day. If you are convinced that won't work then do a short nap and very late BT.
Or like I said before, cut her nap cold turkey, just drop it.
The thing is you've been going through transition for over 6 months, I'm assuming that as your previous thread continued and you are posting a new thread it means you didn't find a relatively agreeable routine which would just 'do' for a while whilst you wait for her to grow and handle the full nap drop. You say you've tried everything else and I expect you really have considering it's been going on so long.
The way I see it, the only things left to try are kind of radical (because whoever was supporting you on the previous thread will have already been through all the regular stuff). Big changes, grit your teeth and hang on to your hair kind of stuff.
If you cut cold turkey now what do you think will happen?
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I agree with creations. If nothing is working and you've tried the other suggestions I would drop the nap cold turkey.
You may be surprised and lo may tack on to night sleep. My ds never did until 1-0 so it's worth trying a nnd and as ebt as you can...wdyt?
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I would actually avoid ebt until the night length is not consistenly increased. It can take a while for the night to lengthen, and in the mean time you don't want to be stuck in ebt-ewu routine. Also, my ds was much older when dropped the nap, but we never had 12 h nights - only for 3 days after nap dropping. He was self regulating alternating 11 and 11.5 h nights, with some 10.5 h night, as he never had consistent long nights (also before nap dropping it was like this). So i agree with Creations, not to put your expectations to 12 h, but to aim more at 11-11.5 if nap drop. Then if you have 12 or more, great.
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Creations, I gave her the uncapped nap today and she slept to 2hrs wow. After she was crying really hard and was grumpy at everyone, only wants mommy. By the evening she got better. BT was at 9:40pm! Right now it's night time here. She woke up at 2:25 and then was tossing and turning but it seems thy she resettled at 2:50ish so not too bad. Let's see what the morning beings.
100% that long nap won't bring her WU later consistently. But I really wish I could move her day later. Maybe I'll stick with later BT for a while considering she wakes up later today. You suggested to offer a short nap and late BT, wouldn't it make her really really OT?
Gosh I'm really scared of dropping the nap! When we dropped the second nap she was sleeping 6pm to 4am most nights so it was pretty hard on me to get up at 4. When I tried bringing the nap back to try and move her BT later she would just refuse it completely. So if I do drop this last nap cold turkey she will never go back to it if need be. And it could go really good or really bad and she can get really OT have very short night, keep up NWUs and have a horrible mood/tantrums.
Creations and Aishi, yes it does seem that we tried all the suggestions but who knows maybe there is one magic thing that we didn't try :)
Barbaraz if I drop the nap, would you suggest to keep a set BT of 7pm? Or 8pm? Tbh I would even love for her to have 11/11.5hr night as long as she is happy and well rested!
Thanks to all of you very much!
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I think that if you drop the nap, and she copes well with it, you can decide the bt that suits you better, considering a 11.5h night (and accepting that there can be few days of short nights while adjusting). I would concentrate to move wu later now, shifting bt. Then, when wu is later, you can think to drop the nap completely.
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You suggested to offer a short nap and late BT, wouldn't it make her really really OT?
Because you said a long nap will not work for more than 1 or possibly 2 days.
There are limited options:
- long nap
- short nap
- no nap
that's it I'm afraid.
So if long nap won't work more than 1 or 2 days just do it 1 or 2 days then switch to short nap or no nap.
Will it make her OT, maybe but there *are no other options*. All babies get OT now and then, use it to your advantage to get a new routine in place (as Tracy did). Besides, it seems the fear of OT is likely the thing which is perpetuating the early BT early WU and the long UT NWs. In all honesty I would avoid UT *way* more than OT. At least with OT they get tired and at some point crash for a good sleep. In fact when I needed to shift my DS's BT/WU (it was a daylight savings time change) I knew I needed to do it *rapidly*. Fiddling around with moving things by 5 or even 15 mins just meant shorter nights and less sleep for longer term. Moving by 30 mins then another 30 mins then another 30 mins in rapid succession was sure to bring the OT crash on much quicker, get onto the new routine much faster and overall *less* sleep is lost.
It sounds like you need to just take the plunge on this. I know it's scary.
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Yes, I'm afraid of OT actually as much as UT partially bacause it's so hard to read her. Kinda feels like I don't know what I'm doing, at all.
Ok ladies, having a plan makes me hopeful. I'll continue with a late BT to shift her WU and then will drop the nap. Fingers crossed.
Thanks again.
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Good luck!
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Thank you!
Sorry one more question. From your experience while moving the BT later is it better to give a late short nap therefore making the morning A long and evening A regular length or make the nap in the middle? She will be OT either way.
My plan for today:
WU 6:45 ( after 9:40 BT)
Nap 2:45(30m)
WU 3:15
BT 8:30
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It depends from your lo. Mine always preferred a long morning A and short pm A, but I know many ladies that found the opposite... It is just trial and errors, I am afraid :-/
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DD also prefers longer morning A but if it's the right A length of course ok thanks
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Just popping on to continue to offer support :)
The way I see it, the only things left to try are kind of radical (because whoever was supporting you on the previous thread will have already been through all the regular stuff). Big changes, grit your teeth and hang on to your hair kind of stuff.
This is kind of where we got to, wasn't it? Holding your hand through the next steps :-*
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Oh LL&J yes it looks that way and you are my witness :). Thanks for sticking around!
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What WU time are you hoping for? I'm asking because above you said you will continue late BT to wait for WU to move later but then in your plan BT is moving earlier. We are expecting a 10hr night, right? You said in first post a capped nap gives 10hrs, sometimes more, so we expect 10hrs and any more is a bonus, yes?
Giving BT at 8.30pm will give an expected 6.30am WU - is this acceptable?
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Sorry if I confused you. Yes 6:30/7am WU sounds good to me. Do you think I should do 9pm BT today instead of 8:30?i think my mind automatically goes into the overdrive and I panic and move her BT earlier. I'll stick with the set nap and BT for week or longer. Once the WU becomes 6:30/7am consistently then i'll drop the nap and keep the BT the same or do I need to move it a bit earlier until her nights lengthen after the nap drop. Sorry I'm very slow lately
The only thing with set time is that usually it seems that it is working but then she gets more and more OT and her sleep gets shorter.
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I think I'd try to get to 9pm but it does depend on mood too, after all this is on a 30 min nap rather than a full nap, but yes, I think if you can get to 9pm with 7am WU then you would be better set to drop the nap and give earlier BT without it becoming terribly early and risking a terribly early wu.
I don't think it will take a week. it's a time shift rather than a routine change iyswim. Like when the clocks change you do it over a few days and that's it done.
I mean, don't know what others think here, or what you think, but if you got a 7am WU tomorrow you could possibly go for a CT nap drop?
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I think you're closer to dropping the nap than you think, AMJ... And I agree that you are unlikely to get any decent length nights until you do. But you need to be up for what it might bring, which is a few very hairy days of unpredictable / inexplicable sleep with the faith that things will settle in the end. I think your LO might surprise you though - after all, what else have you got to try?! Other than keeping BT late, acknowledging that WU will stay early and carrying on with a capped nap of 30 minutes or so and a set (late) BT, until that starts giving very short nights too. It'll prolong the days of a later BT though, doing it that way.... I guess it depends on what feel would work best?
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Creations, I can definitely get her to 9pm only not because she can easily last till then but just by pushing her and getting her OT.
ok if she magically wakes at 7am tomorrow, with or without NWU, I can try CT nap drop. Then what EBT would you set? And do you suggest I stick with it no matter what? when can I give an EBT then? only when her night lengthen?
LL&J yep that sounds right. I think i'm ready lol.
thanks
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Keep in mind it is always your decision. If you are not comfortable to go with the suggestions from me or anyone else then you should not do them. It is always your call and there is support here and hand holding whatever you choose to do xx
So, just based on times, if you drop the nap then
30 min nap and 9pm BT (expect 10hr night based on your information)
expect 7am WU, anything later is a bonus
no nap, 8pm BT, expect 11hr night (anything longer is a bonus)
expect 7am WU, anything later is a bonus
...continue if she seems relatively ok.
...if with 8pm BT she wakes consistently later than 7am this indicates more than 11hr night, BT can move earlier. If for instance she goes to bed at 8pm and doesn't wake until 10am (doing an unexpected 14hr night which is possible as a one off or short term or even long term if that's what she needs) then the following night I'd bring BT 1hr earlier so 7pm BT and something like 7-9am WU. But if she went to bed at 8pm and woke at 8am (12hr night, I do think this could be on the cards longer term but not necessarily right away) then I wouldn't bring BT 1hr earlier but more like 30 min.
You mention OT again. Lots of LOs get some OT. It is not always the worst thing in the world. I really believe more sleep is often lost through UT. Being awake for an hour or more in the night singing sounds more like UT. If there is OT with nap drop (and yes the chances are that there will be) then there will be some NWs and crying, help her resettle, tell her to go to sleep, stay with her to help her sleep.
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Thank you for all those scenarios creations, but I'm assuming that they would happen later on after the nap is dropped but at the beginning I have a feeling that she will be having very short nights due to OT.
So as soon as I drop a nap CT I keep her BT 8pm correct?
What if with 8 pm BT and no nap she consistently wakes very early, let's say 5 or 6 am WU from OT/not being able to handle the nap drop, what do I do then? Do I stick with 8 pm BT anyways for a while to get her used to no nap - sort of like when getting LOs used to set nap and BT?
For example tomorrow if she wakes at 7am I would do 8pm BT (which will make her day 13hrs long not 11hr like was suggested at the beginning of the thread)then she wakes at 5/6am the following day,I would offer 8pm BT anyways (making her day 14hs+) for a week or longer so she gets used to it in hopes her nights lengthen and she sleeps at least till 7am, correct?
Sorry I feel like I'm asking the same questions, maybe I'm not explaining myself correctly.
P.S. She WU at 7am!!!
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Gosh it's 2pm and DD is just so exhausted. She is wiggling like a warm and rubbing her face. Please tell me it's ok and I should keep her up till 8pm BT.
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Ultimately only you can decide.
hugs I know you are finding this hard.
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Sorry I'm not sure if you missed my previous post but would you be able to answer it if you have a minute. Thanks very much
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No, I didn't miss your post. I just didn't feel there was anything else I could add, and "ultimately only you can decide" was a response to your questions. However...
(which will make her day 13hrs long not 11hr like was suggested at the beginning of the thread)
A lot has been said since the start of the thread. You have provided a lot of information regarding nap length, day length, night length and what she will do in certain routines and what she *can't do* which has been taken on board by those supporting you so that we can make suggestions based on:
a) the information you give us
b) something that has not yet been tried
What if with 8 pm BT and no nap she consistently wakes very early
Honey there are a zillion "what ifs". What if she sleeps 14hrs and really surprises you and you are up all night worried about her sleep so don't take advantage of that HUGE sleep you could have just got for yourself?
I have no crystal ball and I have no idea what will happen today, tomorrow, next week or even in 5 mins. That's the truth of it.
I really think all that can be said has been said. Everyone has put what they think, their changing thoughts, and offered ideas (and even answered a few "what ifs" along the way). And now, it is for you to decide. You are her Mummy, you are the best ever Mummy she will ever ever have. You *can* do this. You *can* decide what to do next.
If it helps re-read the thread, make notes, write a plan, stick it on the fridge.
:-*
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((Hugs)) hon for the OT monster fear. I've been there with both my Los especially ds and I agree with creations (who was a great support when I was dealing with ds's sleep issues!) that only you can decide what the best course is and stick with it cos you know your lo best.
From a btdt perspective ds (now 5) was a chronic ew since he was tiny his Wu time was 5.30 am! Obviously teething, age, Dev milestones, nap dropping all came into play when trying to break this Wu time. I tried all sorts with short days, micro nap days, really long days, had brief success with sleep talk but the only thing that worked was sticking to a consistently late bt (assuming sleep needs was 10.5h) when he was 4yo so 8-6.30. He still woke at 5.30 for many weeks until it gradually moved later to 6/6.30. Now his bt is sleep for 7.30 and Wu ranges between 6-7. Never thought it would happen!! The other thing that really helped was using his gro clock consistently and so more effectively by insisting he wait quietly for mr sun to come out. Once he got used to waiting he started sleeping in a bit later too. Now his clock is set to 7.05 (from 5.45 when he was ew!) and he will wait quietly till then even tho he is up much earlier some days!
Hth!
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Aishi and creations, thank you for your time.
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Do you have a gro clock btw? This is something I would reccommend especially with a kid prone to ew.
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Yes we do have it. She stays in her crib most times and waits for the sun but doesn't fall back asleep once she is up
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How are things today?
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She stirred at 5:50am and was tossing for about 30m then fell asleep and WU at 7:00am. Pretty good but today she is acting like she is possessed.
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Holding your hand - if this doesn't work in the long run it's all fixable. Sometimes you have to push past the OT to get where you both need to be :-*
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Thanks LL&J, but once we dropped the nap I don't think she would go back to napping if need be. It's night time here and she is awake for more then 1hr already first chatting and now struggling to resettle. I tried helping her but having me there with her makes her more stimulated so I can't even help her
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Are you still giving the capped nap?
Maybe drop it?
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No I'm not, today is day 3 since we dropped it. DD is really strugling. It's hard to see her like this. Tonight she WU again crying for me. She says that it's too hard to sleep.
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That must be hard for you :(
And how long have the nights been?
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It's heartbreaking to see her like this.
The first night she fell asleep at 8pm, slept though till 7am. For the next 2 days she's been asleep by 8pm and WU at 8am, both nights with 1hr15m NWUs. Tonight she slept through the night from 7:50pm to 6:50 am. She WU crying for me saying she needs to use the potty. Too bad I was hoping she would sleep till 8am. Maybe I should give her today a 7:30pm BT in hopes the EBT will help her sleep a longer night.
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Those are pretty good nights considering everything!
Yes I think you have a good plan to give the half hour EBT one night and see how it goes.
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Yes I guess those nights weren't too bad but her mood is.
So I gave her 7:30 pm BT yesterday then she had a NWU from 11:00-12:30am then WU at 6:30am crying and fell back asleep (not sure when cause I fell asleep myself till 7). Then up at 7:30.
I think it's too hard for her to handle 13hr days but she doesn't sleep longer then 11hrs at night. She is not bad after 12hrs A but that only happens if she has a NWU which pushes her morning WU later.
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My guess is if she is not able to sleep more than 11 h at night (mine wasn't) at this age you need some sort of nap. I would wait few days more - to do a week - and is nights don't get longer I would start 30 mins nap again, keeping the 8 pm bt (so wu is not shifted too early). I think it is better 10-10.5 h nights With a solid sleep with 30-60 mins nap, than 11 h at night of broken sleep.
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Yes I agree.
It does seem this LO is up at night regardless of how long a nap or no nap though...any of the times look habitual honey?
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Barbara, it does look like she needs a nap doesn't it. Tbh last weeks when she had 30m nap she still had NWUs. Only they were 2hrs long where now they are 1hr15/30m long.
Creations. That's right she is up either way :(. I just checked my log and all the NWUs are at different times. The only thing I noticed is that before dropping the nap NWUs were later in the night and longer and after the nap drop ,most times, they are earlier in the night and shorter.
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P.S. Tonight she STTN but the night is only 10hrs45m long. And today is day 7 since the nap drop. Do you think I should bring the nap back today? 30m or let her sleep as long as she wants to get her caught up a bit?
Thanks
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How much sleep is she averaging in 24 hours? Before the nap drop I mean. Just wondering cos J only ever does an average of 11 - 11hr 15 at night now (and therefore that's his total sleep in 24hrs). I'm wondering what you should be aiming for?
If it were me and my LO just sttn I'd stick with no nap a bit longer, personally, if you can stand the grumpiness! I definitely wouldn't offer more than a 30 minute nap if you're close to dropping it cos you're probably at the point where offering any nap at all is a catch up in itself. But I'd be interested in what others think...
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LL&J before the nap drop her total sleep was anywhere between 10hrs and 10:45/11hrs with almost every night NWUs. Now it's about 10:45m of actual sleep but also with almost every night NWUs. It's bad either way but it seems that since the nap drop she has more tantrums, she is refusing food.
I gave her a 30m nap today and she fell asleep pretty quickly
Not sure what to do tomorrow- give another nap or skip it
One thing worth mentioning, lately when DD wakes at night she asks for milk. Not as soon as she wakes but at some point. I tell her that we don't drink milk at night so then she asks for water. I never refused giving her water. Should I stop? How? I'm not sure if it became a prop because she doesn't ask for it right away therefore I think that's not what makes her wake up.
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Hey. Couldn't get on yesterday, house guests arrived and then my internet went off! sigh.
I would probably put water in her room for her to help herself, at least that's what I do for DS. He drinks from a cup in the day but at night I put a sippy cup with the lid by his bed so there is less chance of spilling or knocking over.
I wouldn't force her to eat but if she is refusing food I might mention that she is sometimes hungry at night so maybe eating some food would be helpful.
I'd prob go back to no nap now she's had a catch up.
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No problem at all :)
She is still in the crib so I don't think she can reach through the crib rail and grab the water on her own. Was your LO in big kid bed? I wonder if I can find a sippy that won't leak and I can put it in the crib
It is night time here and it's been 1hr20m and she is still awake. No mater what I do she wakes most nights
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I used to put the sippy cup on a chair or table near the crib, when he wanted he could reach it standing up
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Thanks ladies. I got her a non-spill sippy cup today and she is so in love with it that she won't stop drinking from it until it's empty.
With regards to her nap drop, I feel like I need to bring the nap back because she is just so miserable. She creams, throws things, just goes ballistic especially before bed. I want my sweet little girl back :)
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Hi - sorry I haven't been able to get on much recently.
I think if your Mummy instinct is saying to give her a nap (whether it is every day or every other or once per week) then try that. This transition is hard.
holding your hand even if I'm not around v much right now xx
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I think my ds was the same, in the sense that he never pulled out ling nights so we needed to keep the nap longer to have a decent total sleep. It seems that in your case the main problems are nw, which do not seem related to ot or ut, as they happen with or without a nap.
What does happen with 1 h nap? Would she be able to do a 9.5-10 h night? Would it be unbroken? I would be tempted to try, aiming for a 8.30-6.30 night with a 1 h nap.
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Creations that's right I think that's what is the best for her right now. Thank you
Barbara last time we tried 1hr nap or even 45m her nights get really short, if I remember correctly 9hrs most nights maybe 9.5 hrs. I also remember her having 8.5 hrs nights which in my opinion are just not enough. Her mood also is very unhappy and she is tired.
There were few times I was going back to full nap 12-2, then capping it at 1.5,1hr15, 1hr, 45m and still her nights were short or she had NWUs.
She is such a mystery to me ever since she was a baby. We even worked with a sleep consultant at one point and nothing changed.
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to me, the short nights with a nap are less of a problem, but any length night (with or without a nap) with long NWs are a problem simply because they are going to be exhausting for you and it takes its toll over time.
have you tried various settling methods for the NWs?
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Yes I've tried rubbing her face/head gently, sitting with her to resettle her but since at about 1year of age it stoped working. I used to be able to resettle her before 1y ( although it used to take me anywhere from 1-2hrs) but after we worked with a sleep consultant and she recommended to leave her to resettle on her own. Since then I can't resetle her for the life of me. It seems that me being there stimulates her more.
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Is she just awake then and not crying or calling for you?
Sorry, we have likely covered this already, (I'm so pushed on time right now I can't read back).
Have you tried wi/wo? or verbal reassurance/instruction from outside the room?
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No problem at all.
Sometimes she is laying quietly and I don't come in at all. Sometimes she calles crying if she hears noises( she is very sensitive to noise) sometimes she wakes crying that she lost bunny in the crib sometimes she asks for water ( I think she forgets that she has a sippy cup on the night table).
I usually come in and tell her that she is safe in her crib etc and she is fine right away and I leave or if she asks something I say it's night time etc. I haven't done wi/wo because she doesn't mind that I'm leaving but when I leave she can just lay there for hours after by herself. It's a good idea to try verbal reassurance from outside the room because I usually come up to her crib, I'll try it next time. Also I'm trying to be as quiet as possible so I don't wake anyone because we are still staying at my mom's house.
Thanks for your time
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Popping in with encouragement from your previous thread, I'm still here to support :)
Forgive my asking but how do you know she's awake for hours if she's lying quietly? I'd have no clue with my two, we don't use monitors and certainly not video. Quiet = asleep in my book ;) wondering if you might save yourself some worry/get some more rest if you get rid of any monitoring you might have or at least cut it down to a low-volume audio if for space/distance reasons you really have to have something?
Sorry doesn't solve the sleep issue but may make it more manageable?
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Hi thanks for your support Katherine! I appreciate it.
We have a video monitor so I can see her open eyes. I know what you mean, DH says the same thing to either turn it off or turn it very low but I feel like I need to know how long she was awake at night. Silly I know.
Maybe I just need to wait it out like always and hope that when she is able to stay up for 13hrs she can sleep 11hrs at night and be rested.
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Hi popping back on cos I agree with pp. it's taken me a long time to stop using monitore with my two (ds is 5 and dd 3.5). I have only just turned dds monitor off yesterday cos I figured since she's on a set bt and can self regulate there's no need for me to listen out for either of them. Ds will wait till 7 and his Mr sun before he wakes me and dd is vocal enough when she's up!
I would get rid of monitor too as long as u can hear when she needs u xx
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I would agree about getting rid of the video monitor. Tracy said it's common for LOs to stay awake for long periods at night and so long as they are not calling for you then just leave them to it. Obviously here when there are long NWs we see if the routine can change to help avoid them but I do think in some cases LO just needs to be left to get on with their resting/thinking and go back to sleep when they are ready.
I have an audio monitor only for when I am downstairs so that I know I can hear a call out or cry but when I go upstairs to bed there is no monitor. I would hear DS from upstairs if he cried. But I would have no clue if he was just awake and laying quietly.
During a phase where mine woke for periods at night I verbally reassured from outside the room (from my bed usually!) with "Everything's fine, it's night time go to sleep" and then if the disturbance continued (and I knew he didn't need a wee or drink because this would be multiple call backs and he's had a wee/drink etc) then I'd give more *instructional* verbal, firmer in tone but not a telling off "It's night time, go to sleep".
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I agree with others about the monitor. I also have an audiomonitor for when we are up, but switch it off when I go to bed. I refused to buy a video-monitor because I knew I would become obsessed about A times and how long it would take to go to sleep... So I decided to count the A from the moment I heard him up to the moment I put him down without any callback. I was not precise for sure, and sometimes he was possibly more OT than I thought (but as Creations said, UT is much worse than OT, IME), but it worked in the end, and saved my mind...
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I am obsessing over it that's for sure! Thanks to all of you ladies. Now that you've planted a seed in my head about getting rid of the monitor I am going to work up to it. I think it will be a bit easier once we fly to our new home for good which is in 2 weeks.