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SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: shira1206 on July 09, 2015, 07:07:49 am
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Hello,
I am not sure if this is a food or sleep question - sorry if this is the wrong forum.
my little one is 3.5 months old.
we haven't always had a good routine but for several weeks we do and it was going good. up until about 2 weeks ago she was on a 3 - 3.5 hour schedule with her food (120 ml) and sleeping OK (more or less) during naps though a lot of help was required to get back to sleep when she woke up after 45 minutes.
During night she would sleep until around 3-4 AM and then eat and wake up at around 6:45 AM and so on.
2 weeks ago she started crying after food so i raised the amount to 150 ml and she started a 4 hour routine between feeds.
her naps are better, and she needs less help with getting back to sleep though it seems she does sleep much more during the day (2.5 3 hour naps at times).
couple of days ago i felt she was getting restless. she started waking up around 2 AM to feed and then at 5 AM again in the morning. i try to give her pacifier to help her fall back asleep but it doesn't last long.
she also had some nap issues one day and 2 days after she slept so much... i even started to worry. she has been eating her fingers frantically the last couple days which i know is OK but that's something i felt was different recently.
tonight she woke up at 1:15 AM to eat then slept until 5:00 AM. i couldn't help her sleep more so i gave her food and she fell asleep in middle (ate half) which never happened before.
after putting her to bed she woke up at 6:15 AM again and finally i took her out of bed around 6:45 (she takes time to wake and plays a bit in bed).
she only ate at 7:30 and didn't finish all (she ate 120 ml)
I will be very honest - i feel bad for not understanding whats going on with her - that i don't understand why she isn't calm as before.
also maybe she sleeps too much during day?
after her morning food she never stays awake more than an hour - and i tried everything. she cries and wants to sleep.
then she wakes after 2 hours - which means 1 hour before her next feed - so shes up 1 hour then eats, then plays 30 minutes and gets tired again - so the day cycle is like E, A, S, A, E, A, S, A etc...
I want to help her if needed - maybe this is perfectly OK, and don't want to do anything that will be a bad habit. I am just not 100% if i am doing anything wrong.
I know everyone always tell me 'mother knows best' and 'do what you feel' - but to be honest, it's hard, I don't always know what to do, and it makes me feel bad that maybe i am not doing the best for my baby.
thank you.
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Hi honey:) I've felt the same way as you so much times in the first year. It is hard knowing how to handle different situations and wondering whether we have done the right thing. That's why I love this forum and all the support & guidance I have received here. I'm glad you have found this place too :)
Regarding your worries --- firstly, everything is constantly changing with these Los. Just when you think you've gotten into a good routine, things change. You have to roll with the punches, hun, and don't over think it. If she is waking but will settle after a feed, great. Keep going with that. If she eats less at her morning bottle, it's possible because she is full from her night feeds. You could try giving her the bottle a bit later - maybe in the middle of the A time? Have you tried introducing a dream feed? That helped eliminate our NWs completely. And a fixed WU time in the morning. As soon as I regularly started waking DD at 7 am, she stopped waking for her 5 am feed ;D Honestly at that age, if DD woke to eat, I would feed her. It is quicker and easier, and they do need the calories.
What I feel is happening with your DD is that nap 1 is too early, and is more of a continuation of night sleep. I know you said she gets cranky and fussy and wants to sleep in an hour but you will have to actively keep her up and push that time out to 1.5 at least. Go for a walk in the fresh air - great way to stretch A times without over stimulating or over tiring.
Besides all this, could you post your routine for a few days? Maybe a few tweaks are needed there
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thanks so much for your answer :)
our routine last couple of days:
WU - at 6:45-7
A - in bed - she wakes slowly and looks around plays with a small bed toy
E - 7:30
A - about an hour depends how tired she is (she did get up before she ate so i can see it is more than an hour of A time looking at this routine - but only in last couple days)
S - 8:30 (2-3 hours with help getting back to sleep after 45 min)
WU - 11
A - 30 min
E - 11:30
A - until 12:45
S - 12:45 until around 15:00 sometimes 15:15 with help falling back asleep after 45 min)
E - 15:30 and if she doesn't seem very hungry maybe even 15:45
A - 1 hour
S - 16:45 (around 30-40 min)
A - from 17:30 until 19:00 - 19:15
bath time around 19:00 - 19:15
E - 19:30 - 19:45
Bed time around 19:45 - 20:00
Night time
starts tossing her head from side to side around 1:00 AM then i help her continue sleep
Again at 2:00 AM
E - 3:00 - 3:30 AM
S - 15-20 after she starts feeding
around 5:00 AM she tosses her head again and i help her sleep - sometimes again at 6:00 sometimes wakes around 7:00
regarding DF - i was considering it but to be very honest it scares me a bit - what if:
- she wakes during DF?
- what about the diaper? she pees a lot so it needs changing
- what if it ruins her sleep time from from 19:30 until around 3:00? this really bothers me.
- what if she eats and wakes at 3:00 again?
- what if she won't eat?
i have so many questions i am unsure of - never tried it, can we start at this age?
thank you so much
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WU - at 6:45-7
A - in bed - she wakes slowly and looks around plays with a small bed toy
E - 7:30
A - about an hour depends how tired she is (she did get up before she ate so i can see it is more than an hour of A time looking at this routine - but only in last couple days)
S - 8:30 (2-3 hours with help getting back to sleep after 45 min)
WU - 11
This is what I meant, hun. She seems to be catching up on her night sleep over here. I would suggest pushing it to 1.5 hours A and capping the nap at 2 hours max. It might be a case of too much day sleep over all.
Your routine seems fairly normal otherwise, including the NFs. Don't be scared of doing a DF. It is amazing. Even if she does WU,she will fall asleep while eating. If possible, you could ask your DH to do it with a bottle of expressed milk (not sure if you are are nursing or is she on formula - either way you could make it his task. That's what I did.)
- what about the diaper? she pees a lot so it needs changing
Is it completely soaked through? I followed Tracy's advice and stopped changing DD in the night ( it was never too wet and never poo) I slathered on the diaper rash cream and she was fine till morning. In fact, we only had one diaper rash in the entire first year, and that was because of a tummy upset with cheese (grrr)
- what if it ruins her sleep time from from 19:30 until around 3:00? this really bothers me.
I don't understand this. Could you explain? She is anyway able to make it to 3am till she needs a feed. The DF sort of tanks her up for the night, so she won't be hungry when she wakes and soon will sleep longer. And a fixed WU time in the morning might help with the second feed.
- what if she eats and wakes at 3:00 again?
She might. Or she might wake later than 3 because she would get hungry later, and slowly you phase it out.
- what if she won't eat?
Then you keep trying and she'll eat eventually. I had to ask DH for some of your answers and he says not to worry at all. DD refused it the first few times but once they got into a rhythm everything was fine. He would put on a tiny light, prop DD against a pillow, stroke her lip with the bottle nipple and she would eat. When it went slack in her mouth, he removed it, placed her back in her crib, turned off the light & left the room.
can we start at this age?
yes
"How do I implement/drop the dreamfeed?"
Goodluck:)
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thank you!
I am working on the morning A time to make it longer, today we went for a walk after she was awake about an hour (like you suggested) and it gave us 20 more minutes of A time :) (too bad it's so hot outside now even in those morning hours).
I will speak with my husband about DF - he is usually awake. I am nervous but if we won't try we won't ever know how it goes right!? :) will update on this.
what i meant when i wrote "- what if it ruins her sleep time from from 19:30 until around 3:00? this really bothers me." - i mean that she usually sleeps from BT till around this hour (unless something changes some nights) so i was afraid DF will mess up her sleep hours.
she can sleep between 6-8 hours from BT to night feed usually, and then 3-4 hours until morning. can't this mess times up and she will think she did the 6-8 hours and she needs to wake in 3-4 hours again? like she will think the DF is actually her NF? hope i am more clearer now.
you say she may wake again at 3:00 and want to eat - how can i tell if shes hungry or if she is used to wake at this hour?
and what happens if she wakes at 5:00 am for example? i will feed her and then put her back to sleep until 7:00 AM. then what should I do? she ate 2 hours ago so when should i feed her again? i don't want to give her food if she isn't hungry.
again, thank you so much for your support in this :)
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Sorry for not replying, hun. I'm ill. How are things going?
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really sorry to hear you are ill and hope you fell better soon. sending you some good energy.
we didnt start the DF because my little one is with pavlik harness and she has 1.5 more weeks to go - she's currently in 'rehab' from it (after 2 months of 23 hours a day with it) so we put it on only at night and then when she wakes to eat around 3:00 AM i take it off. she needs to be 8 hours with it and i rather she be with it during the night.
once we are done with it (hopefully) i will try DF.
when you feel better and if you have time, i would really like to know what you say about my questions:
"you say she may wake again at 3:00 and want to eat - how can i tell if shes hungry or if she is used to wake at this hour?
and what happens if she wakes at 5:00 am for example? i will feed her and then put her back to sleep until 7:00 AM. then what should I do? she ate 2 hours ago so when should i feed her again? i don't want to give her food if she isn't hungry." - only if you have time ofc
besides that, our daily sleeps are getting worse to be honest :(
at night she wakes at after midnight and i pat her to sleep, then again after 1AM and finally to eat around 2:30-3:30, then again at 5AM then at 6...
she doesn't open her eyes, just tosses her head from side to side really hard and tosses her arms and legs.
also our daily naps got worse. it's getting hard for her to fall asleep on her own and it wasn't like this. especially the afternoon short nap.
and she wakes after 30 minutes now , not 45 (i have another thread here on that Will baby learn to go back to sleep on her own after 40min nap? (3.5 month baby))
and it's getting hard helping her fall back asleep.
I am so exhausted and sooo confused.
I don't know what to do more or different.
thanks,
Shira
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"you say she may wake again at 3:00 and want to eat - how can i tell if shes hungry or if she is used to wake at this hour?
At that age, I wouldn't worry too much. If you find that she settles back to sleep easily after a feed, voila. If not, then it wasn't for food:)
and what happens if she wakes at 5:00 am for example? i will feed her and then put her back to sleep until 7:00 AM. then what should I do? she ate 2 hours ago so when should i feed her again? i don't want to give her food if she isn't hungry."
Feed her again. Then wake her up at the WU time you want - say 7am-- and feed again. You want her to understand that you will be waking her soon and she will get a feed, so that she stops waking at 5 for it. That's what happened with DD.
Sweetie, if she is 4 months now, then there is a sleep regression at that time. Do you know about the wonder weeks? The week 19 leap is also awful! I had a horrible time when DD was 4 months old. It is a terrible time for sleep and overall temperament. Just get through this and it gets SO much better
short naps at 3-4 months? Take it easy, it will get better!
{hugs} hon!
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thank you newkidontheblock - you made me smile and feel a bit more relaxed.
i will post here to update on how things go.
hope you are doing better!
Shira
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Only just back from a long weekend away; will try to catch up tomorrow. :-*
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Hi Ladies,
today was a really bad day - because of me.
i started thinking last couple of days all the things going on - not being able to sleep past 40 min, waking up couple times at night - it's all related to my little ones paci.
so i thought i would try settling her back to her nap after she woke 30 minutes into it without the paci - bad idea on my part.
i guess i haven't thought it through and she started crying at some point of me patting her, so i picked her up to comfort her and when she relaxed i put her back but it just got worse and worse. she was screaming her lungs out for over 30 min when i broke and tried giving her the paci, which at this point she didn't want. i couldn't calm her down in anyway, so i gave up on nap time and just walked with her in the house and still it took her some time to stop crying. from there the entire day went upside down. after this she was happy and played and then she ate at her regular hour - and i saw she was extremely sleepy so a bit after that i put her to bed, with the paci. she didn't fall asleep calmly as usual and woke 30 minutes later - and i couldn't get her back to sleep.
from there even a walk outside became very hard, and when i saw she was exhausted i wanted to put her for another nap - she started screaming so immediately gave up.
i gave her her last bottle 30 minutes before time so she could go to bed a bit earlier - and we never had bed time so hard like today. she screamed her lungs out, took me 30 minutes until she fell asleep (no paci this time - she didn't want it) - i think she was just so exhausted otherwise she would keep crying.
i am not even 100% sure it's the paci... maybe, it is, maybe it isn't...
i myself couldn't stop crying from that noon nap :( it was because of me she cried all day, and is tired and i felt like i traumatized her from going to bed - she never screamed like that when we put her - on the contrary, she took her paci and fell asleep in minutes on her own.
i hope i didn't ruin all her sleeps from now on :(
she is an amazing little baby - shes so happy, smiley and calm - and i made her become something completely different today - poor baby, probably didn't know why mom was doing this to her.
damn, i am crying while writing this.
i am unsure what to do now, i just needed to share - i was alone with her all day and it was so hard.
i will pick myself up tomorrow, it's another day.
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Deep breaths. We tried probably a dozen times to get DD2 to give it up and in the end she kept it till she was 2-1/2YO. DD1 wasn't weaned till 7 months. But hey - you don't always know until you try. :-* Now you know - probably not now unless you REALLY want to spend some intensive time working on it (it's in the No=Cry Sleep Solution, BTW, getting baby weaned from paci peacefully).
So fake your way thru the rest of today, and tomorrow is a new day,
"you say she may wake again at 3:00 and want to eat - how can i tell if shes hungry or if she is used to wake at this hour?
At that age, I wouldn't worry too much. If you find that she settles back to sleep easily after a feed, voila. If not, then it wasn't for food:)
and what happens if she wakes at 5:00 am for example? i will feed her and then put her back to sleep until 7:00 AM. then what should I do? she ate 2 hours ago so when should i feed her again? i don't want to give her food if she isn't hungry."
Feed her again. Then wake her up at the WU time you want - say 7am-- and feed again. You want her to understand that you will be waking her soon and she will get a feed, so that she stops waking at 5 for it. That's what happened with DD.
Actually, any chance of sending in DH for those MOTN feeds? It's less likely that she'd associate him with a feed. That's in part how we ended up getting J off those very early morning wakings/feeds.
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{hugs} hun. I'm so sorry for the bad day. It is so hard when you are alone handling this. I remember so many teary days in the first year. Just put it behind you. Today is a new day and you can both start fresh. Weaning the paci is not a very easy task. We never gave DD one, so no BTDT experience but if you feel that this is something you want to do, you could read through these success stories
Paci or Swaddle Weaning Success Stories Here
Oh, and absolutely think about getting DH to do NFs. My DD took AGES to nurse, so we always did NFs with expressed milk in a bottle. Eventually, this became DH's task. Even the DF was his responsibility. I really feel this help in a big way to stop her waking up
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thank you both for the encouragement.
i will update once we start DF and see how it goes.
about getting DH to do the NF's - i don't breastfeed so my little one always gets a bottle. my husband feeds her her last bottle before bed during the week and during weekend it's a mix of the 2 of us.
will it still matter if he takes on the NF's in our case?
and we did have a better day after :)
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Glad to hear it:)
And if DH is up for it, definitely see if he will take on NFs:)
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Hi Ladies,
I wanted to update where we are right now.
in general i think naps and NW's are OK, even though there are some NW's it's less than before and she falls asleep by her own usually.
during the day CN is a bit strange - she started sleeping about 20 min. now that is probably OK, however since she can't stay awake more than 1h40m she usually takes her CN around 16:00-16:15 and since it's 20 minutes, maybe 30 she wakes before 17:00. this means she is awake until evening feed at 19:00 for more than 2 h and until she goes to bed it can be 2.5h and i see she is tired.
do you have any suggestions about this?
also, i wanted to ask, could it be she isn't totally hungry every 4 hours? that's how i feel, like she isn't craving for food when we get to it.
we started DF 3 days ago, around 22:45-23:00, and here's what happened:
Day1 - she took only 20 ml (her usual bottle is 150ml) but didn't move once during the night until 3:30 AM
Day2 - she took 100 ml this time however she stirred twice and woke around 3:00 AM - when i took her up she was all wet from pee :( poor thing - and she what chitchating when she woke up and smiling.
Day3 - Dad put a new diaper on before the DF, which kinda woke her up. During DF she was half asleep and took 100 ml. then she needed some help getting back to sleep - which she didn't the first 2 nights, because she didn't wake at all. she moved a bit around 2:00 AM, then at 3:00 she woke but when i came back to ger her after making her bottle she was sleeping. so i went back to bed, and she woke again at 3:30 AM. i thought i would try the paci, and she fell asleep in 2 seconds. she finally woke at 5:00 AM to eat - and she was hungry by then.
she then went back to sleep and i had to wake her at 7:00. ofc she wasn't hungry and barley ate 40 ml.
to be very honest i feel like i am giving her an additional feed during the day she didn't ask for until we started the DF - because she used to sleep through that time before and she still wakes for a feed.
we will continue for some more time but i would like to know what your thoughts are on this please.
thank you again,
Shira
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hello again,
it's been 2 weeks since we started DF.
our little one stopped taking a night feed after about a week or so.
the thing is i feel we are harming here sleep in a way - she stopped waking around 3AM once DF kicked in and started waking at 4AM instead, and also around 5AM or sometimes 5:50AM
when she wakes i pat her and give her a paci if she doesn't calm and go back to sleep herself, and she does fall back asleep so i assume she isn't hungry
when she finally wakes to start the day - can be between 6AM to 7AM, she usually doesn't eat much, which is very strange. her usual amount in bottle is 150 and sometimes she eats 90 - after a night without food. not sure why.
the last week i feel she is not so calm, she does not enjoy her toy and cries more and wants me to hold her a lot. she also yawns a lot and rubs her eyes and it's hard to keep her awake more than 1.5h whereas we had 2 weeks where she got to 1.45 and 2 hours of A time.
i feel like she does not sleep well at night, with all those hours where she stirs again and again. i should mention that when my DH feeds her the DF, it's around 23PM and she immediately wakes when he picks her up now, like she got used to him coming to feed her - but falls back asleep during the DF. she does not eat much on DF - between 60 to 90 tops.
i just feel shes tired, maybe the fact she wakes at 23PM, and then stirs several times from around 4AM, it messed up her sleep?
also, 2 days ago i decided to wake her gently at 3:00AM (wake to sleep) since i saw the pattern of her waking at 4:AM each morning - the thing is that same night she start stirring in her bed at 2:30AM and didn't calm until 3AM. i still touched her a bit and gave her paci, but she woke up at 4AM for couple min and fell back to sleep on her own, then at 4:30AM and needed her paci to sleep again, then again paci at 5:45AM
last night i wanted to wake her at 3AM again, since i read it should be done several days and again, she woke at 2:50AM. i still touched her gently, put her paci in.
she then again woke at 4AM, then 5:50 - and finally woke at 6:15
i would like to also mention i see she has shortened her day naps to around 1.20 hours to 1.30 hours whereas until now she slept 2 hours each nap (besides CN of course).
i am kind of lost to be honest.
she is now 4 months and 2 weeks (though she was born 2 weeks before time if that matters, i am not sure).
i want to help her but i do not understand what's going on and not sure what she needs and i want to be able to keep our routine as best as possible but i feel it's getting all over the place.
any advice would be much appreciated.
thank you
SHira
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Maybe for now stop the DF and see what happens. Josie took it for a while and then....nothing. I agree that if she's falling back to sleep with paci she's not hungry, so maybe let her sleep alone a little while and see what happens.
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thanks Deb
if we stop DF it means we need to go back to a night feed, since without it she gets only 4 bottles a day. i don't mind really but we did want to try getting her to sleep through the night - ofc not like this when she's so restless.
wouldn't stopping DF only 2 weeks after we started confuse her too much? isn't it worth trying some more or better to drop it before it gets too far into it?
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If you drop the DF, do offer her more during the day. How much is she taking at night? Enough to make it worthwhile? She might be ready for bigger daytime feeds now that she's older, which would mean she stands a better chance of getting all the needed calories in during the daytime. But if she still takes a big DF, maybe back down the amount and try to replace the calories during the day until you can just give her the paci at night if/when she wakes.
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she currently takes 150ml mostly during the day, though it changes - she is not a morning eater and rarely eats the entire bottle, even after the entire night without a bottle, which really confuses me to be honest. sometimes even only half a bottle in the morning :o
sometimes during the day she will not finish her bottle either, maybe eat 120ml
her last day bottle, around 6:30-7PM is usually 180ml, like she is filling a little of what she missed earlier during the day.
for DF, she started very low (30ml) and went up to 90. once even 120 but then back to 90, and last 2 DF's only 60 - how can she not be hungry during the night like this? clearly she isn't getting what she "should" - though i did read in Tracy's book that 4 months babies can eat less due to development changes.
i guess 60 ml is not enough if a regular bottle is 150. we do offer more, she just won't eat more - she falls asleep and DH can't get her to eat more.
i can try to offer more during day feeds but she doesn't finish her 150 usually like i mentioned above - so i am not sure what to do. what do you think?
do you think DF is influencing her NW's? the last 2 days where she only took 60ml she woke at 2:30AM - but went back to sleep with her paci. does that connect in anyway? yet again, she didn't want more than 60ml or to eat during the night. ???
thanks
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I had to write again because i feel so lost :'(
I am just so terribly tired - little one is waking at 2AM, 4AM, 6AM...
All these NW's have now been more than a month and I feel it's getting harder and harder because i know shes going to wake and i sleep even less
if baby is tossing and turning, even though eyes are shut, does this count as sleep time? i feel so bad for her, since this happens so much now and it's like she doesn't sleep well at all.
there probably isn't anything to do at this point, i just wanted to share.
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Could you post your day, hun?
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lately this is how our day looks like:
5:45-6AM - LO starts stirring, I usually give paci and she keeps stirring back finally wakes at 7AM
E - 7:15-7:30AM
A - (yesterday she made it 2h but couple days before it was hard to even make it beyond 1.5h)
S - 9-10:30 (she used to do 2h but started shortening it about a week ago)
E - 10:30-11
A -
S - 12:45-13:00 (usually 2 hours)
E - 15:00
A -
S - 16:30 (20 to 30 minutes)
A -
E - 18:15 - 18:45 (depends how tired she is if i want her to go in a bit earlier)
S - 18:45-19:00 (sometimes 19 +)
DF - 22:30-22:45PM
NW - 2AM
NW - 4AM
starting over 6AM with stirring
i have to say last couple of days we had some out of routine activity, so 2 days ago she went to bed late and yesterday she slept in her trolley around 12:30 for 30 min, then we left for home so she woke and when we got home i put her in bed around 13:30PM. she closed her eyes but tosses and turned in bed until 14:30! :-\
i am really trying to keep our EASY going as best as i can..
also i tried some wake to sleep but doesn't seem to work.
thanks
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This actually seems fine to me at least. She is doing long naps even though she can't do long As. I don't think you should worry too much about the unsettledness as long as she properly wakes at 7am. 1-2 NWs are very normal at this age
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OK thanks.
i was actually starting to think i was the problem because maybe i go to hear too fast when she stirs.
does that even make sense?
when she moves, and tosses her head, and pushes her backside up, her eyes are still shut. i am just concerned she is not comfortable or that she will totally wake up.
should i not go to her? because i feel she does not get a good sleep like this, when she isn't calm.
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I know it might be hard but try not to go to her unless she calls for you. Even if she is restless or even awake, let her try to sort herself out. If she needs you, she will let you know and you can be there for her at that point. Sometimes we disturb them more with our presence
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thanks!
she will be moving to her own room soon so that may help with that. it's hard not to respond when shes sleeping in the same room and you hear everything.
i appreciate your help :)
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t's hard not to respond when shes sleeping in the same room and you hear everything.
I can imagine. I'm sure both of you will sleep better once she's in her own room/
{{hugs}} hope things improve