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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: gejun on July 11, 2015, 01:00:14 am

Title: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 11, 2015, 01:00:14 am
I am ashamed to say that no much improvement for LO sleep. He is 10 month now.
I tried long am and short am for weeks, the first A from 3.5h to 4.5h, I keep the first nap around 1.5h, the second 30mins around, if BT is 19:00, he still wake at around 3:00,sometimes NW short as 1h,some long as 3h.

Whatever he sleep in day, he wake 8hs after his BT, so I thought he may sick, but doctor said he is healthy. They just suggest put off his BT.
I thought he must be massive OT for long time, maybe dyssomnia now?
The reasons I think he is massive OT are: long nw happen late night, not like a cot party,
Sometimes he wake, then quiet, if nw longer than 1.5h,he will cry, but not loudly, seems like SA, I try to rock him to sleep, feed water, but no use, when I rock him, he push me. He want to back to his bed. He rolled over in the cot long time, finally fall asleep.
In day , even after a 1.5 or 2h nap, he may be asleep in car 2.5 or 3h later, so he never refuse another long nap after a 1.5 or 2h nap. Also I neednít cut his afternoon nap since it will not effect his BT.
I even try let him sleep as he want in day time with around 3.5h same result.
I only got seldom STTn with very busy day to hospital, he had no chance to sleep long in car or pram, three 20~30mins cat nap, he must be very tired.
He is teething, but I think itís not the reason, teething is also strange, canine teeth first .
His mood is ok, in daytime, he play well independent, watching TV, smile, crawling, standing, not too excited, everyone think he is a good temper boy. What an OT baby looks like?

Yesterday, he woke up naturally at 7:00 (BT19:30, Last nap was too late, nw 3:00~4:00 ) , first nap from 10:30, 2hrs, second nap 3hrs later, 45mins, BT 19:00, stired at2:15,then quiet, wake at 3:15, fall asleep at 6:00, wake naturally 7:30.
I know he sleep in but cannít wake only 30mins after he was asleep.

If he is massive OT, is there any way to repair? I donít dare to a short am and long pm which worked for us before, if his afternoon nap was ideal, no chance to let him sleep more in day, and I found Ebt didnít work, just make his NW early too.

I am ashamed to say that no much improvement for LO sleep. He is 10 month now.
I tried long am and short am for weeks, the first A from 3.5h to 4.5h, I keep the first nap around 1.5h, the second 30mins around, if BT is 19:00, he may wake at around 3:00~4:00,sometimes NW short as 1h,some long as 3h. I think the routine didnít work because massive accumulative tired

Whatever he sleep in day, long wake happened, so I thought he may sick, but doctor said he is healthy. They just suggest put off his BT.
I intuition is he must be massive OT for long time, maybe insomnic now?
The reasons I think he is massive OT are: long nw happen late night, not like a cot party,
Sometimes he wake, then quiet, if nw longer than 1.5h,he will cry, but not loudly, I try to rock him to sleep,  but he push me. He want to back to his bed. He rolled over in the cot long time, finally fall asleep.
In day , even after a 1.5 or 2h nap, he may be asleep in car 2.5 or 3h later, so he never refuse another long nap after a 1.5 or 2h nap. Also I neednít cut his afternoon nap since it will not effect his BT.
I even try let him sleep as he want in day time with around 3.5h same result.
I only got seldom STTn with very busy day to hospital, he had no chance to sleep long in car or pram, three 20~30mins cat nap, he must be very tired.
He is teething, but I think itís not the reason, teething is also strange, canine teeth first .
His mood is ok, in daytime, he play well independent, watching TV, smile, crawling, standing, not too excited, everyone think he is a good temper boy. but I read from some book, very OT baby looks happy too,  What an OT baby looks like?

Yesterday, he woke up naturally at 7:00 (BT19:30, Last nap was too late, nw 3:00~4:00 ) , first nap from 10:30, 2hrs, second nap 3hrs later, 45mins, BT 19:00, stired at2:15,then quiet, wake at 3:15, fall asleep at 6:00, wake naturally 7:30.

If he is massive OT, is there any way to repair? shorter A and let him sleep as much as he want?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on July 13, 2015, 19:55:04 pm
Hi, sorry it's taken a while for you to get a reply.  And I'm sorry to hear you're still struggling.  There is no need to be ashamed that you don't feel your LOs sleep has improved.  The fact that you're doing your best for him is enough :) Some LOs are harder to figure out than others (my youngest was), and some are more sensitive than others too, which means even if you're doing the "right" thing it doesn't always work.

What does a typical day look like now?  It sounds like you've tried lots of different things so maybe we need to draw a line on what has or hasn't worked in the past and look at things again - after all, he will have changed since you tried some of those things.  I don't know how long you've tried any of them for, but really you need to stick at them for 3-5 days as a minumum to see the effect of any change, so it could be some things that seemed like they didn't work, would over a few days.

I only got seldom STTn with very busy day to hospital, he had no chance to sleep long in car or pram, three 20~30mins cat nap, he must be very tired.

Sorry, I didn't quite understand this.  Do you mean that on days when he only has 2 or 3 cat naps he sleeps better at night?

He is teething, but I think itís not the reason, teething is also strange, canine teeth first .

Also, canines can cause havoc with sleep, so it may well be that this is causing problems.  I know you've had difficulties for a while, but you probably need to wait until all his canines are through before making too many changes as the teething can make it look like something isn't working, when in fact it's just teething complicating things. 

Let me know what your day looks like now and we'll see where we are.  If anything jumps out at me I can suggest some things to try, but I'm aware that it might not make much difference while those teeth are cutting...

Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 15, 2015, 06:45:48 am
Thank you for your reply. His EASY is a mess currently. for long NW which was closed to wake up time, the final wake up time were different everyday, Ill take records and post a couple of days soon.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 16, 2015, 23:38:40 pm
hi dear,
If I confirm this long NW is accumulated OT, I pushed his first A too much despite his poor night, and limit his day sleep 2hr max, which may make him no chance to catch up his lost sleep, result in OT?
he never seems rested from naps. should I start from shorten A as 3.5 or 3 hrs and let him sleep as he want, then similar A for second nap , wake up from second nap to keep BT? Hope After couple of days when he will catchup and start sling UT shorter morning nap then push?
I may did wrong for last months, wrong direction
yesterday like this
 
7.15:
Wu:6:30(3:15am~4.15nw)
Nap1:10:30~11.10 he was very tired at 10:20
Nap 2:15:00~16:00  I woke
BT: 19:00
nw:4:00am~5:40am not a cot party, he struggle to fall asleep, defecate may also affected it.
7.16
WU:7:30  I woke.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on July 17, 2015, 08:38:49 am
I would try shortening A times to 3.5 hrs for the whole day, and hold for a few days to see how he gets on. Also, sorry if this was covered on your last thread, but what do you do when you hear him in the night?  We used to get very long nws at this time until my LO turned 1ish, I toughened up at night and his day sleep significantly dropped to around 1 hr. I think it's worth shortening A times to see if that helps, but it might be that you need to respond differently at night too to help, and / or play about with the amount of day sleep you allow.  How much sleep would you say he has in a 24hr period at the moment?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 17, 2015, 09:05:58 am
two weeks ago, I needn't help him even long Nw, he didn't cry aloud. but recently maybe SA, he cried aloud when he woke, so I gave him water,he always drank quickly, then he roll over,  quiet for sometime,then roll over till sleep soundly.
I think his total sleep need is 13~13h 20mins.
I will try to around 3.5A with uncapped nap this week to see if he can rest well. if he rest well, his A should be higher and need less sleep than now.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on July 18, 2015, 05:46:43 am
Ok, good luck! :)
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 21, 2015, 03:31:49 am
below are logs :

7.15:
wu:4:30 maybe
nap1: 8:40~9:10
nap2: 12:00~12:35
nap 3: 16:12~16:55
BT:18:50

NW: 3:15~4:10
7.16
wu(6:30) wake
nap1 10:35~11:48  I put down him at 10:15, he just fight it for 20mins,maybe too tired
nap2  15:00~16:00  wake up him. 
BT:19:00 settle in five mins, maybe I shouldn't wake him from second nap?
Nw: 12:00, 2:30, quick resettle himself. 4:00~5:50

7.17
wu 7:30
nap1  10:45~11:40, I put down at 10:30, just play 15mins,
nap2  15:00~16:10
BT:18:40, settled at 19:10
Nw: 4:00~4:30

7.18
wu:5:30
nap1: 9:30~10:35
nap 2: 13:45~15:00
BT:18:00
NW:4:00~6:00

7.19
WU: 7.45 wake himself
nap1 10:30~11:05,  we have to out, he slept in pram, so nap was short
nap2  14:15~15:15
NW: 11:30, 2:30, quick resettle.

7.20
wu: 5:00
nap1: 9:00-9:50
nap2: 1:20-2:20
try to BT 17:30, but he fight,finally at 18:00
NW:3:40~4:30, wake up 6:00, during 4:30~6:00, maybe light sleep, I am not sure how much he slept.

He began fightor play when put him down when nap and BT, he never did it before, I think he is oT.
and I don't know how to do if he wake up too early, two nap or three nap? I even don't know if I should encourage more day sleep to get a good night since he is massive OT,and how to encouage more sleep,    or more day sleep will make night worse?
It seems like shorten A is right direction? if he is massive OT, will more day sleep encourage good night.? Should I shorten it to 3hrs?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 21, 2015, 08:25:33 am
today is bad,
wu: 6:00, cried aloud.
nap1: I try to put down at 9:00, he fight, finally fall asleep at my arm, 9:25~10:15
nap2: I try to put down at 13:15, he fight very much, even rocking him , finally he fall asleep in pram at 14:50, woke 45mins later, unhappy and yawns.
try to early bed time today, will be a bad night. don't know why he fight sleep so much yesterday and today.

Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 21, 2015, 10:57:59 am
oh, he has  diarrhoea , maybe the reason he fights the nap and cry.  I hate illness.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on July 21, 2015, 19:04:19 pm
Poor thing :(  If he's not well that probably is disturbing his sleep :( 

I've had a look at your logs.  I'm not so sure OT is your problem....  When he does A times of around 3 hrs, he naps for less time than when he does A times of closer to 4 hrs, which would suggest the short naps are UT to me.  I think you're probably a fair way through the 2-1 and the long NWs in the early hours of the morning were always UT related for my LO.  He might be OT through poor sleep, but the answer is more likely to be to push A times and get solidly on one nap I reckon.  It'll take a while to get there, but you've got to keep moving in that direction.

How about you try something like this:

WU:  6 (I know this is variable - this is just to give you an idea)
A: 3 hrs 30
Nap: 9.30 - 10 -capped at 30 minutes
A: 3 hrs 30
Nap: 1.30pm - Uncapped - resettle if less than 1 hr 20
A: 3hr 30 - 4 hrs
BT: 7pm

I would start doing a set BT, and just put him down 30 minutes earlier if he's had a bad day of naps, but I think in general your last A is quite short.  I'd keep it at a minimum of 3hrs 30, even if you've had terrible naps all day.  A nap too close to BT often gave us long NWs in the early hours.

Having said all that, please wait til he's better before trying anything :)  If he's ill he probably will need more sleep and will find it harder to settle.   You won't learn anything by how he's behaving when he's ill - just follow his cues and not the clock for  a while til he's back on track :-*
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 22, 2015, 02:56:26 am
Thanks so much, I feel I am insane about his OT. so last night was not too bad, short cry ,quick resettled at 22:30, 2:00,3:00. woke around 4:50, was happy.
I also found three months ago, we did similiar routine as you suggested,  like this:
wu:6;00
nap1 9:00   45mins
nap2 12:45   1hr15mins
BT:19:00

we got weeks great nights, but suddenly multiple NW appeared and nap 2 became shorter or long broken nap. now look back it, maybe just need to make a little change at that time, but I didn't know here and don't know how to do it at that time.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 22, 2015, 03:05:54 am
By the way, for short am/ long pm, it's really hard to find a right second A, right?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Dino44 on July 22, 2015, 18:53:59 pm
We do short am nap (30 mins) and long pm nap (generally 1.5-2 hours) and LO tends to sleep through but our issue is only 10.5 hours night sleep. Only get the magical 11 or 12 once or twice a week. LO is almost 10 months. Not sure if our schedule for awake times would help you to find awake time? We only got a longer second nap when we cut the first nap to 30 mins.

WU average 6am (sometimes before, sometimes after but do set naps and BT)
Nap 1-9.45-10.14
Nap 2- 1-3.
I was so surprised that this awake time was so short and was getting 1 hour 10 OT naps for ages before I realised LO was OT not UT.
Bedtime 6.45, pushing to 7pm before he settles now.

Not sure if this is useful for you at all? X
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 22, 2015, 22:59:04 pm
Thanks Dino44, itís useful for me, because I cannít identify nap is UT or OT according to itís length.
7.21
Wu:6:00
Nap1: 9:25~10.15   
Nap 2:14:50~15:35
BT:17:50
Cry loudly at 22:10, short NW 1:45, 2:45
7.22
WU:4:45  so nearly 11hr
Nap1: 8:50~9:24  refused to nap, have to put him in pram for walk, finally fell asleep at 8:50, he always did short nap in pram.
Nap2:13:10-14:40  cry at 35mins, then resettled himself, I woke at 1hr 30mins to limit day sleep,
BT:18:20  he yawned 17:20
7.23.
WU:4:30 !!!  Similiar short NW like yesterday

What should I do with such an earlier wu time? Itís seems like have to extend all A to get a reasonable BT, but will produce more day sleep and a following short night? or a third CN like 15 min around 17:00?
I donít understand why he cried loudly on 22:00~23:00, it happened everydays now.
He seems recover from diarrhea.
But his temper changed lot this week, he used to be a good independentt sleeper, especially at night. But now, he plays almost 15~20mins at nap time or cry. At BT time, once I left the room, he will cry, when he woke , he yelled , be quiet till saw me.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Dino44 on July 23, 2015, 18:41:50 pm
I think there is a lot of developmental stuff going on at the moment-our sleep has certainly gone pear shaped a few times. We tend to leave LO in the crib till at least 6.30 unless crying. Normally he is moaning/chatting and will to back to sleep after 45 mins/1 hour if he wakes before 5.30 and means we can start our day at a better time. Apart from that we do set naps as in last post regardless of wakeup so sometimes he goes 5.45-9.45 for first awake and sometimes from 7-9.45 and a much shorter awake. I feel that the set naps have allowed me to get control over my day and also LO now seems to get tired at those times. We got rubbish second nap until we cut down the first nap. Have you tried that? Appreciate its risky if it doesn't work? We also have black out in the day and white noise playing. If he wakes at 35 mins or 1 hour 10 (overtired) I leave him to resettle which he normally does within 5 mins. Don't know if any of this is any help at all but our Little ones are similar ages and we just need to shift this pesky early morning waking now!!!
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 27, 2015, 02:42:38 am
My problem is different , now I confirm he is accumulate OT, the long NW is OT not UT, when he have bad nap, the night will be worse.
when he had STTN with three CN, just crashed. so I did wrong last two months.
now, two naps with 3.5A seems cann't reach a reasonable BT. for OT,  even a long nap couldn't refresh him now, and it's also hard to get a long nap now.
any suggestion about it?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 27, 2015, 23:07:32 pm
Dear Lovelylilyjack,
Our last A a was short  because I found if it is long, early night cry happpened, so I think he was ot at BT.
Could you look this day:7.19
WU: 7.45 wake himself
nap1 10:30~11:05,  we have to out, he slept in pram, so nap was short
nap2  14:15~15:15
NW: 11:30, 2:30, quick resettle.
BT 17:50
He slept nealy 11hours till 4:50am.
It looks good , just BT and wu are too early
my question is lo is not tired enough, could he easily settled at BT?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on July 28, 2015, 06:18:10 am
Hey Hon, can I help in any way?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on July 28, 2015, 07:27:35 am
That day you posted does look good.  If you'd been at home and done a morning A of 3 hours and he'd napped for nearer an hour you'd have had a decent BT too.  If you think he's OT, why don't you try a few days of shortened A time to see if it helps?  Maybe try A times of around 3 hrs / 3hr 15 with uncapped naps, and BT not before 6.30.  If he won't do more than 11 hours at night (it seems) then if you make BT too early you will end up with early starts.  Jack is the same - early BT only works to a point.  Otherwise he just shifts his night.

my question is lo is not tired enough, could he easily settled at BT?

Jack always did.  If he was UT it always came out as an EW.  He'll always go to sleep at BT within 5/10 minutes, but will EW if his naps the previous day were too long / A time was too short.  My daughter was the opposite though, and wouldn't settle at BT if UT.  It can go either way.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 28, 2015, 08:39:57 am
if I  try A times of around 3 hrs / 3hr 15 with uncapped naps, and BT not before 6.30, it looks like every nap need to at least 1.5hr, to reach a BT not before 6:30 right? so need total day sleep around 3hrs to reach a reasonable BT.
I have thought if a baby is not tired enough, he will play around .
 Thanks Martti, just still stuggle with NW, I try long/am short/PM, for it's reallly hard to get right second A, but it seems lo didn't like it, we got long nw in late night.
I tried to shorten A as you saw I posted logs, wish here wise ladies could found what's wrong and what should I start now.
I am total lost.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 28, 2015, 09:11:22 am
sorry I made a mistake, I mean I prefer a long am/short pm, because it's hard to find right A for short/am longam  , and I cann't imagine how to reach one nap from it. But lo seems hates it, we got long nw with it. maybe becauce a bad beginning. before I try to switch to long am,  I had a sttn with wu 5:30,
nap1:9:00~10:11
nap2: 13:20~14:55 I forgot maybe I woke him up
BT 19:00
NW:4~5:30am,

day2
wu:6:30
nap1:10:20~11:50 wake up
nap2:15:00~15:30 he seems tired at 14:30
BT:19:00 
nw,22:30, 3:00,4:00,5:00, all short nw.

following days are similiar.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on July 28, 2015, 17:36:29 pm
Can you please post your log for last 5 days, but don't state cryouts at night when he self-settled as NW?

How old is your LO right now?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 29, 2015, 00:16:18 am
sorry I haven't last five days logs for so exhaused. I will post logs from yesterday.he will be 11 month this weekend. yesterday tried short am again because don't know what shoudl I do, despite of I am so stessful the second A  and worry about he wakes early from the nap.
7.28
wu 6:35(long NW late night)
nap1 9:30~10:00  woke  up
nap2 13:15~14:45 woke  up
BT 18:40 settled quickly
NW 3:40~4:00   
7.29
WU: 6:25  woke himself natually

could I still stick to long am? I have no confidence getting a long pm nap ,yesterday long nap was more like compensate for poor night.and I don't know how to get a transition with short am/long pm
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on July 29, 2015, 05:30:24 am
Tbh I'd just start off with something and stick with it for a good 4 days and then see where you are.  It's the only way you're going to figure out what works for him.

Yesterday looks like a great day. I know you said the long pm nap was only cos of a bad night before that, but the only way you'll really know is if you do exactly the same again today after a good night.  If he then does a shorter second nap it'll indicate that he may need a little more A before that second nap (cos he went into it more rested), and at the end of the 4 days you factor that in and decide what to do. It is possible to find the right A time to reliably give a long pm nap, but you're unlikely to stumble upon it and there will always be other things (like teething / developmental stuff) which affect it even when you do.

That's where a set BT comes in for me. If you have a set BT of 7, say, and that second nap turns out to be short then you just put him to bed a little earlier. If he's had a really short second nap then make BT 30 minutes earlier than usual.  If he's slept an hour instead of 1hr 30, say, then just make BT 15 minutes earlier.  You have to find what works for your LO, those are just examples, but hopefully it gives you an idea of how it could work.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 29, 2015, 07:04:40 am
Thanks Lovelylilyand jack.

 I got a perfect 1.5h just now, 13:20~14:50, first time getting this magic length nap, the second A is 3hrs 20mins, so aim to BT19:00.
expect a better night :)
 
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on July 29, 2015, 19:00:11 pm
Good stuff, hope it continues to go well over the next few days :)  I'm away for a couple of days so might not get on here much but will check in when I can.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 29, 2015, 21:16:44 pm
I felt down, after a 1h 25mins nap, he yawned 16:30, I thought it's not sleep cues, just hungry or others, but when he took his formula at 18:40, he ate not well, I thought he was OT :(. BT 19:00. short cry around 22:30, seems sign of ot,He woke 3 am, yawns many times, upset, till now, 5:00am, he seems finally asleep now, poor baby.
so yesterday better night was more like a crashed night? 20mins later BT made so much difference?

My intuition still is massive accumulated OT, I did many wrong things to him since his sleep cues never be obvious since he was 6 month. I ever tried three CN for days, only becuse I thought a crashed day was he needed. >:(
 his A looks much shorter than his age now,like 6 months? I found even after a restorative nap, he can easily falls asleep in car 2.5 or 3hrs later.

what should I do today? early BT didn't work. he just woke 11 hrs later. looks like his total sleep need is 13h15min, little change from 6 months, but his A is short, cann't reach BT with normal day sleep.
I hope I am wrong for accumulated OT, but if it's true, is any way to let him recover? I even thought I may lost him just now,the long nw lasted two months. he was also clingy this week,
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 29, 2015, 21:39:09 pm
another question, when I try to be consistent, with long NW, when should I woke him up on morning.  11.5~12hrs after BT?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on July 29, 2015, 22:01:52 pm
I still think you should stick with the same routine for at least 4 days - it's the only way you're going to figure anything out.  If he's OT then the A times you're doing should help.  After 4 days we can see where you are. I don't think you can look at one day or one BT and judge, you have to look at the day sleep, day length, the night before, the naps the day before that etc, and you only get that picture by being consistent.

another question, when I try to be consistent, with long NW, when should I woke him up on morning.  11.5~12hrs after BT?
I wouldn't wake him at all, especially if you think he's OT. Just do your normal A times, it all feeds into the overall picture  :)
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 29, 2015, 23:22:16 pm
If he wake around 8:30, with same A, when should be BT tim.
I read you reply late, so I woke him 7:00am, aim to 10:00 nap1, and 2:00pm nap 2, if still get a 1.5hr, aim to BT 19:00?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 29, 2015, 23:30:14 pm
I mean for short or long NW, wu are different, if set BT 19:00, the lengh of day will be different, there are three A in day, which A should be consistent firstly? last two days, first A is 3hrs, second is 3.5, last A is 4hrs, but today I think fist and second A keep consistent, last should be short as 3.5h, if the nap still 1.5h, or should I wake him if the nap longer than 1.5h?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on July 31, 2015, 23:49:29 pm
7.28
wu 6:35(long NW late night)
nap1 9:30~10:00 woke up
nap2 13:15~14:45 woke up
BT 18:40 settled quickly
NW 3:40~4:00
7.29
WU: 6:25 woke naturally
Nap1:9:30~10:00
Nap2:13:20~14:45 woke himself
BT:19:00
NW: Around 3:00~5:00
7.30
WU:7:00 woke him
Nap1:10:00~10:30
Nap2:14:00~15:30 woke himself
BT:19:00
NW: Around 3:30~5:00
7.31.
Wu: 6:35 woke himself
Nap1: 9:50~10:20
Nap2: 13:45~15:00
BT:19:00
NW;4:00~4:20, but he began rolling over constantly from 1:30, was quiet, not sure if he was woken, woke up naturally at 6:10 finanlly
now it's 8:00,he yawns.
I found the log for 7.21, he slept 11 hs, the second A is 4.5h, he may really need more A? It's weird that he woke at 6:30 with a NW night, it's seem he don't want to sleep in too much?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 01, 2015, 06:04:03 am
Sorry for going quiet for a while, I've been away for a couple of days.  Apart from a couple of long nws, those days are looking good  :) It looks like he's doing better with a long A in the day - the nights he's doing shorter nws are after an A of around 4hrs, though it's hard to see over 4 days.  What do you think about sticking with this routine for a few more days to see if anything emerges? Keep the first 2 As the same and let the last one vary according to how the day pans out.  After that we'll try something else to see if we can get rid of the long nws.

Also, sorry if this has been asked before but what exactly do you do when he wakes in the night? We used to get those long nws at 3/4/5am too. What fixed it was me getting much stricter about how I dealt with nws, he slept better at night so reduced his day sleep and within a week we were sorted. That was when he was 13 months and we've only had one long nw since then...
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 01, 2015, 08:11:57 am
Appreciated your helpful assistance.I will stick to for more days, I also think 4 days are too short to evaluate it,After 30mins,he could sleep longer afternoon, I have got three in four days. I never got it when tried long am, most of 1hr15mins or shorter, maybe A was not enough?
what your nw looks like? upset ,happy or calm? I am not very strict with NW maybe, sometimes I gave him water, he took it in cot himself then rolled over,till fall asleep again, sometimes he needn't water,Just rolled over himself. He cried loudly NW two weeks ago and fighted or played at naps as I posted before, but suddenly with the start of the routine, he settled quickly at naps, so strange. What do you think OT looks like at bed time? Cry at early part of night like 8:00~9:00?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 01, 2015, 21:47:14 pm
It's been different for both of my children tbh. Lily used to cry early in the evening if she was OT but jack does that if he's UT.

Our long nws with Jack usually started with 30 - 45 minutes of him being fairly quiet - I might go into him once - followed by at least an hour of crying. He'd temporarily quieten when I went in but would either cry with rage when I left again or chat for 5 or 10 minutes more and then start crying again.  In the end I got really strict and only went in if he was really sounding upset, even if a long time has passed.  If he was moaning or calming in between cries I left him. If I needed to go in I just popped my head around the door, or walked over to the cot at most and firmly told him it was sleepy time  - I probably sounded quite grumpy and short with him. I didn't touch him or do anything he might want me to repeat - even speak nicely to him  :-\  It did work though.  I thought I was being firm before but changing my tone of voice and making me being in the room ultra brief and boring made a big difference in the end.  I definitely didn't offer water, check his nappy, lie him down or anything like that.

We'll see how the next few days go but I wonder if you need to change your approach to nws before making any other changes to see if that helps? If he's expecting you to be fully available in the night that might explain the nws (beyond you being available for a genuine need,  of course).  What do you think?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 02, 2015, 03:41:43 am
Most of time he didn't cry during long NW, just was quiet and rolled over in cot, moaned if took long time to fell asleep again. so I think he didn't expect me, I just felt maybe he woke for thirsty so gave him some water occasionally, when I left, he didn't cry, drank water quietly in cot.

I may stop giving water or leave a bottle water in cot. I tried once, he could find water himslef in cot easily in cot, he drank 150ml water , I found empty bottle on morning, but he still cann't fall asleep after water.

he looks like a good temper boy,

I will be more firm, it's easy to do it.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 02, 2015, 08:13:10 am
Yes, he sounds very good tempered :) Good idea to leave the water in the cot.  I wouldn't go in then if he's not crying.  I don't know if you do  (apart from to give water) or not?  Even if it's been a long time he'd cry if he needed you.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 02, 2015, 09:41:59 am
if he cried loudly, I will gave him a cuddle , he became calm then put him down, then left or lied down on floor to observe him, I pretended to close the door to let him know i left, cheat him :P. But I think most of time,he didn't cry, so I did nothing, because I hope he can fall asleep himself , he needn't me ,if I touch him , maybe disturb him.  unfortunately it always took long time  he was asleep again. I had thought maybe he was unwell, but doctor said he is healthy, and he looks good in day, happy, play independent well. so I think is routine problem, his sleep cues was Not obviously since he was four month. he did three Cn in day for months, everyone think he is energetic. he became an independent sleeper at 6 month because rocking him to sleep was too hard, it always took 20mins and he only sleept 30mins, 45mins max,  he even began refuse the moring catnap. his naps became longer  suddenly at the first day he became independent sleeper, but early EW appeared several days later, now I know he got too many day sleep at that time.
I had thought if baby not tired enough , he will not sleep. but it seems like he will sleep whether UT or OT, but wrack his night then. just like let him became an independent sleeper is a mistake :(

I stay outside the door or lie down on floor, to wait him be asleep again, I am sure he didn't know I was in his room for some nights,someone including DH told me if he didn't cry, just leave him alone. but I know he was awake , I am worry about he cann't get sleep he need, which may effect his healthy,and always don't know when put him down next day, sometimes I am jealous mums whose baby have obvious sleep cues, they
just follow cues, even more day sleep with short nights, or mums like you ladies could figure it out , :P. cann't imagine  NW lasted so long, don't know when will be the end.

For his total sleep, I am not sure now, months ago it was about 13h~13.15, but maybe he changed now.

Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 02, 2015, 20:25:44 pm
My two never had obvious sleep cues either. I figures most stuff out with them through trying something for a few days and then tweaking, so you're not alone there....

I think if you want to rule out behavioural influences on the nws,  you need to be consistent.  I'd try and keep out of his room unless he definitely needs you, and even then you walking in and telling him to go to sleep should be enough.  It depends on what you're comfortable with - personally I wouldn't give cuddles in the night cos with J he took that as a reason to call me back. I always say to my two they can always have cuddles in the day, no matter what, but at night it's just about sleeping  :)

It does sound like he may do better with longer A times.  Have you found the length or frequency of the nws to change since you reduced his A times?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 03, 2015, 00:39:48 am
It looks like the NW length is shorter than long am/short pm, but frequency is more. And woke up naturally earlier than long am routine, I am curious why he didnít sleep in more with NW .When I tried long am, he morning A is around 4~4.5h,
Logs these two days below, unlucky, his second nap were disturbed by his Dad and Mum, Will avoid it following days.
8.1
Wu 6:10
Nap1 9:30~10:00
Nap2 13:30~14:40(was woken by DH noise)
BT 18:45
NW:3.15~3.30, 4:30~6:00
8.2
WU:7:10 I woke
Nap1: 10:20~10:50
Nap2: 14:20~15:35 I made wrong alarm clock.
BT:19:00
Fell asleep 15mins later, maybe OT at BT.
NW: 1:30~2:00 after that maybe still some NWS around 30mins around 2:30, 4;00, I am not sure, he didnít cry, but I heard noise from him. Then wide woke at 5:40, but quickly asleep till 6:10
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 03, 2015, 20:22:00 pm
Aah, ok it's hard to tell much from the last two days cos he didn't get his long nap. Do you think he's still OT? I'm wondering if he could handle a one nap day if he's regularly doing 4hrs A and does 4hr - 4.5hrs on a long AM nap routine?  If you're going to try longer A's that's probably the next thing to try, but not if he's OT still....
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 05, 2015, 05:49:23 am
yes, I don't want to make a big jump. will post our logs several days later.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 05, 2015, 10:07:13 am
looking back logs,I think he maybe  need more A, when I did long/am routine, I always got 1.05~1.15hs nap, do you think that's because A was not enough? or OT nap for long NW closed to wu? I am thinking what's wrong when I did it.  You are right, extending A is direction to getting one nap day, I don't know how to extend A in short am routine, I looks long am is more easily to understand, just push, push moring A.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 06, 2015, 05:50:02 am
Yes, pushing the first A to get a longer later first nap is a good way to do it, then you can AP a cn at a reasonably set time.  If he's tired, he'll take it, if not then you can do an EBT. 
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 07, 2015, 00:31:55 am
The problem is long NW so closed to wu, so maybe extend A gradually not jump? if night became better, extending A much.
I think if the first nap is not longer enough , still have chance let second longer, and second A could be longer than 3.5hr since we noticed he could handle at least 3.5h after a 30mins nap,right?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 07, 2015, 07:30:36 am
Yeah, though the idea with the long am/short pm routine is that the shorter nap is UT, so you're not letting OT build up.  I reckon you could aim for something like :

WU: 7
A: 4hr 30
S: Uncapped, resettle if less than 1hr 30
S: 3.30ish (set time, AP if you need to - if he doesn't take it for whatever reason just skip and do EBT) - 30 mins
BT: 7.45 if 2 naps, 7.15 if one nap.

And yes, I'd push that morning A gently. If we had long NWs close to WU  I  pretty much ended up ignoring them cos they were caused by him being UT overall, so J could cope with being pushed a bit.  If he looked really tired I'd put him down 15 minutes early, that's all.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 08, 2015, 06:39:13 am
Thanks, Martii also gave me suggestion about Long/am in details, just don't know what's wrong I did it, long NW closed to wu was still here, I never got 1.5h on moring, mostly 1h 15min, with long nw, WU always changed much, so it's difficult to keep consistent.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 08, 2015, 08:38:12 am
You might just have needed a tweak here or there. He's older now too  - babies change so quickly - I reckon it's worth another go :)
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 09, 2015, 22:57:01 pm
quick question, how many day sleep  you suggest if he woke early like 5:30? should I limit day sleep or more sleep needed to reach a reasonable BT without OT?
8.8:
wu :5:00~5:15 (not sure, last night BT 18:30 for only two 35mins naps ), light on at 6:00
nap1:9:40∑10:55 woke himself
nap2:14:55~15:40 woke himself
BT19:00
stirted at 3:30 about 15mins, then stirred at 4:30 ,woke maybe 5:00? he was quiet, light on 6:15
8.9
wu5:00 maybe light sleep maybe no sleep, no cry
nap1:10:00~11:30
nap2: 15:20~16:05
BT:19:00
short cry at 20:00,21:30, stirred at 4:10 around 10~15mins maybe, short cry at 5:20, woke at 5:30.
so it's a sttn night, but short as 10.5h, a OT night? because short cry at 20:00, 21:30 , I need resettled him for 21:30 cry.
yesterday his total day sleep was 2h15min, since it was a really long day, it is not too much, right?and I hope Bt still 19:00, would total day sleep time effect wu of next day ? what do yo suggest to deal with following day with such an early wu? I have to made a huge moring A because I  am not sure when he woke and what should I do if he woke so early, he was unhappy from his naps , but played well then.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 10, 2015, 21:01:18 pm
yesterday :
wu:5:30, I am not sure if he slept after 5:30 ,light on 6:30
nap1:10:30~12:00
nap2:15:20~16:00
BT:19:00
no ew cry, but woke at 3:40 again,till now still are woke, it's 4:30 now. I had thought there was some sleep after 5:30. but if not, so with high first A, the NW looks like OT?
he is nearly 11.5month, NW seems will never end up, when nap was not long enough, we had NW, if nap was long ,still NW,what's wrong?.
should I do a catch up day? let him sleep as he want, is too much sleep effect night too?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 11, 2015, 08:26:10 am
I still think the nws are more likely to be UT, but you are there and can see his mood, do you think he's still OT? I don't think your A times are too long for a 11.5 month old - if anything the second nap length after a shorter A and decent nap is UT, which probably means he's also UT at BT after only 3hrs A - but you could move his morning nap earlier by 20 minutes and add 20 minutes A before bed if you think he needs to catch up.

Are you aiming for a long am routine at the moment? Cos if so, and reducing A times doesn't help  (therefore he's not OT), then I think you need to start capping the shorter nap to 30 minutes max, and maybe even increase his last A. If you want to try that I can suggest a routine for you, with variations if he EWs?

In terms of amounts of day sleep it really depends on the LO. My daughter was sleeping around 2hrs in the day at this age, but my son was only sleeping 1hr 20 and his night sleep didn't improve til it reduced to 45-60 minutes in the day at 13 months. My friend's little girl needed about 3hrs at this age. It really varies as babies get older. If your LO is sleeping 12 - 12.5hrs in 24 (going by the last two days), if you want 11hrs at night then anything over 1.5hrs will rob from the night most likely.  However, in the middle of the 2-1 it's sometimes impossible to get more sleep at night and the only way through it is to push on to one nap by capping one nap until it's short enough to switch to only one nap and an earlier BT. Keeping day sleep down to a reasonable level will help, but really it's very hard to change the short nights until the LO is through the 2-1 transition.

What do you think? Is he OT still? If not, do you want me to suggest a long am nap routine to get you through to one nap? I do think this is the way to go now - get to one nap and longer A times. Sometimes even with a bit of OT you just need to push through it or you end up in an UT/OT loop which is worse in my experience  ;) :)
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 11, 2015, 11:44:05 am
To be honest, I am not sure about UT or OT. when I thought he was OT, just because I thought UT always with a cot party, though his mood was not good in nw, maybe every baby is different. I also noticed that I can get 1.5h nap with 5h A, but never get it with 4h A, so seems UT, and need to extending A.  his mood is ok, especially in moring, if I let him play, looks like he will play forever, he handles 5h ok, always long good naps after 5h, not a OT nap.
 
For recent days, it seems like based on bad night, with a better day, then getting a better night, but based on better night, same day leaded to a worse night.

For amount of sleep, yes, I noticed 12.5h now, I mentioned 13.15h before, but that's months ago, maybe changed now. for day sleep, I mean in different length of day, same day sleep or a little more if in a long day, for example with different wu 5:00 and wu 7:00, same BT at 19:00, same day sleep or more sleep if wu 5:00? I am not sure if more sleep in longer day will making thing worse, but if same day sleep, will be some OT at BT?

For wu, he changed much everyday, one day EW, annother day long NW, he woke later with sleep in, so it's hard to keep consistent.  and I don't know how long a day should be kept.

yes, I am aiming for a long am routine,  less stress about getting a long nap. appreciated you suggest a routine to get through one nap. That's the right direction whatever,really need your suggestions in details, what should I do if EW, and what should I do if NW ending closed to 6:00am.

Thank you very much, his sleep problem effect my life seriouly.

In additon, long NW this moring, 3:40~5:30 maybe, woke natuallly 8:00am, I don't know when should be BT, Just put him down at 13:00, he slept 1.5h, woke himself 14:30, no chance for a CN if BT 19:00, looked tired after 18:00, so put down 18:35, fell asleep quickly, will be bad night again maybe with so much sleep in this moring. should I woke him up on morning?or try a CN at 18:00 aim to BT 20:00? 

Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 11, 2015, 14:30:37 pm
It's really hard with a LO who struggles to find a pattern, and who does those long early morning NWs.  I remember that age well, it was really hard. In the end I kind of did set naps cos it saved me from over analysing and trying things out.  Sometimes it worked for us and sometimes it didn't, but at least I wasn't always tweaking. I also found that, given a routine with a bit of slack, my LO could handle the odd long day as long as he had the chance to catch up the next day. It looks like that's what you're LO is doing too with the bad night / good naps / good night  / good naps / bad night pattern.

I think you could do the routine I posted above, but with set times of something like :

WU: 5.30 - 7am? I'd set a start time for the day which you're ok with and try and resettle til then.  If he's still awake at that point I'd get him up, but if he's sleeping past then, let him.
Nap 1: 10.30 - uncapped.  This may be short if WU is late, or longer if that first A ended up being longer. If WU is much before 5.30am I'd bring the nap forward to 10.45 but that's it.  Resettle if the A time before it ends up being long  (over 4.5hrs?), and nap length is less than 1hr 20.
Nap 2: 3.30 for 30 minutes. If he's tired, he'll take it  (you can AP this one if you want to - I found that essential to help keep perspective cos I could get out and know J had the opportunity to sleep  - if he needed it). If he's not tired, he won't take it and that's fine  :)
BT: Set at 7.45 if he takes the cn, 7.15 if he doesn't.

And that's it.  If he does a long nw, I'd just stick to the set nap times and know that he's got plenty of opportunities to sleep with that routine which should prevent OT building up.  A little bit on the odd day is fine - in fact it's inevitable. This routine should stop it building up into chronic OT and give you some peace.

The other thing is that you might find that there isn't really anything more you can do to improve his night sleep  - certainly not until he's been on one nap solidly for a few weeks. BW is all about finding something that works for the whole family, and you feeling ok about your LO's sleep is a big part of that.  Whatever you can do to reduce the pressure on yourself has got to be good, too.  Get out and about for that cn. Stop logging his sleep for a while. If he has a bad night or a day of short naps, that is NOT  a reflection of how well you're performing as a parent.  I struggled with this - I felt I was letting my LO down by not finding the right routine for them, but now I know that giving them opportunity to sleep and the ability to sleep independently is more than enough.  The rest is over to your LO :-*
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 11, 2015, 23:26:45 pm
yes, I need to find some way to relax myself, I am so stressful for his uncertain sleep.
I had some question about second nap, if he took it but later, should I cap it's length? for example, I take him out in pram, but he fell asleep till 16:30, cap it 15~20mins?
if he doesn't take it till some point, like 17:00, I have to back home, it will be a one nap day, is it too long to BT19:15?
If for several days, he doesn't take the cn, should I push his first A to heard for one nap?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 12, 2015, 01:47:35 am
another question,  Nap 1: 10.30 - uncapped.  If WU is much before 5.30am I'd bring the nap forward to 10.45 ,.
I am confused, so if wu is 5:00, bring nap forward to 10:45?before or after 5:30?

I have some sense of this routine now, give him three opportunities for sleep,  he can regulate in first nap and night sleep, which are both uncapped, up to him finally. if he woke up earlier, he may sleep longer for first nap with a longer A, so a long day with more sleep, if he woke up late, less sleep in a short day. and hope late BT lead to a late wu, because he may not sleep over 11h now.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on August 12, 2015, 07:08:18 am
Hi Ladies! I am just popping in with some different advice. Kate's advice are totally perfect but I am just thinking of with such a habit a gentle way of pushing the routine will give an effect. That said, I would either push the nap to 11:30 at that age and frankly speaking in one push or switch to short/long routine, even if only for a while, it should help to break the habit of waking at 5:30.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 12, 2015, 08:18:22 am
Hi Martti,
thanks for your different advice. his problem is not habit of waking at 5:30, but still long NW early morning.

update today log,
nw4:00~5:00
wu:6:00 woke himself
nap1:10:30~11:45
nap2:15:45~16:15

so after 4.5A, still 1h15min nap, in recent four days, only after first
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 12, 2015, 08:24:07 am
only after 5hrs, I can get 1h30mins nap. but even if we got 1h30min nap ,with a short nap in afternoon, still cann't get rid of long nw early morning. it seems like only first day did well , then became bad.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 12, 2015, 09:08:42 am
Hi Martti, you had gave me more suggestion about long am in another post,thanks. I wrote a long reply, but I thought maybe you missed my post, so now it's a new post.
Could  you look my logs? we tried to short am 30min, long 1h30m,  long am 1h30min, short am 30min or 45min, but still got long nw early morning, I'm so exhasted.
Kate and I are trying to rule out OT.
He is unhappy when I woke him after 30mins this afternoon, yawns many time, seems like not rest well.
Based on long nw night, even after a 1h30mins nap,  he accept afternoon CN easily, seems like the 1h30mins not restorative as expected. 
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on August 12, 2015, 17:46:09 pm
How long have you tried short-long routine? What time was short nap and how long it was?
Re long-short how late in th day you did it? And for how long? Can you push him to 11:30 at once?

Sorry Kate for different suggestion but I just feel that a big push is needed. He will be 1yo soon if I am ok and lsn babies will do 1 nap then close to 12:00 or even 12:30 so if your nap Gejun is at 10:30 steal sleep from morning nap is understandable.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 12, 2015, 20:23:03 pm
I tried about 10 days, 3~3.5h from wu for 30mins,  then second 3.5A, with 1.5h nap.
re long-short, the longest A is 5h now, getting 1.5h nap, if A was shorter than 5h, nap was short like 1h~1h20min. I think you mean push him to 11:30 is based on wu around 6~6:30,BT 19:00? so first A should be at least 5.5h, maybe  6h, that's mean heading to one nap day ? 
I never pushed to 11:30, because I haven't get pm CN refusal. after a 1.5h nap,he always accept cn after 3.5h, maybe based on poor night,maybe chronic fatigue for UT-ot loop.

I also found in recent logs that total sleep is around12.5h maybe, don't know he drops his sleep need or a result of OT.

I know the book mentioned for lsn, any sleep before 12 will steal sleep from late night, but is it the only way to do? like Kate's JACK, he is super lsn,  but he did 1.5h at 10:30, still got great night.

now it seems it's hard to try the theory, cos for long nw early moring, at 6:00~6:30, sometime he was woke or just fell asleep half an hour later, I cann't prevent sleep in ,if woke him , he couldn't keep awake till 11:30, maybe I need a chance to get it.

in fact, Kate thought UT ,so suggested me push ,push, push,too, but I am worry about OT, so not brave enough to push so much, the reason I dont dare to one nap is I haven't getting nap refusal as I mentioned above, so not sure if he is ready for it.

if he can handle first A 5h easliy, then 1.5h nap, then handle 3.5~4h, doesn it mean he can handle 5.5A, then 2h nap, then handle 5h?

kate, what was jack's one nap day looked like at 10~11month? This is only thing I haven't tried. if I can get a STTN, I will brave to try it for one day, it cann't be worse than now.

Martii, suddenly another idea, if I want to try one nap day but no chance from 6:00~6:30, could I let him sleep in as he want on moring(at least he rests well , could handle long A), but BT late too? just like after nw, he may wake himself 7:30, nap from 13:00~13:30, aim to 2h, then BT20:00, is it crazy?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 13, 2015, 06:26:57 am
Hi, sorry for the delay, I'm at my mum's this week and the Internet is a bit  patchy.  Thank you martii for your suggestions - I know you spent a lot of time with gejun on a previous thread, so you know the background better than I do :)  I agree gejuns LO needs to head towards one nap at 12ish - I was suggesting a start set nap time of 10.30 so gejun could move slowly towards it, though I did find at this age that jack could handle bigger pushes too.

Gejun - if you want to try a set nap, I meant that if your LO wakes very early, say 5am, to move his nap forward by 15 minutes to 10.15. My thought was that after a week or so, you move that nap back to 11ish and see how that goes. I think it will take 2-3 weeks of pushing that nap back to nearer 12 to get properly on one nap though, so your other option is to do it quicker, as martii suggested.

The idea with the cat nap is that it's another option for dealing with OT.  I would leave it as set at 3.30 - if he's not asleep by then (or imminently about to drop off ), then he can't be that tired, so you keep him up for an EBT instead. The next day he may be more tired and take the cn, or not. Gradually as the morning nap moves later, the cn stays at 3.30 and gradually he'll take it less and less and end up solidly on one nap. J would take an AP'd nap after 3.5hrs too at this point in the transition, but it wasn't long before he wouldn't AP a nap before 4hrs A. That was in the morning though - I think he would have carried on APing after 3.5hrs in the afternoon for a bit longer.  I stopped offering it in the end cos I could see his total sleep on 2 nap days was less than on one nap days, so we just fully switched to one nap and I stopped offering a cn.  He would have taken 2 naps if offered for longer than that if it was up to him.

Jack moved to one nap properly the week he turned 10 months. From what I remember he had a nap at 12ish by 11 months, for 1hr 20ish usually.  Then at 13 months I got tougher with the long nws and the same week he reduced his day sleep to only a 45-60 minute nap  nearer 12.45 (probably cos he was getting better night sleep), and then the nws stopped for good.

I hope that answers your questions? :)
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 13, 2015, 07:03:17 am
Yes, I got it,  :).

these two days, I didn't woke him at morning ,let him sleep him as he want, I found this way could reflecct his real A, and seems like nw didn't shorten A much, so a little mess about wu and BT time, but I keep A graduallly increased,  tried an  one nap in a shorter day, only one nw and was shorter than two nap day, but this only one day, so let us see what's going on next.

Today push A to 5h25min, got a 1h40min nap, woke happy, if he won't take cn this afternoon, Ebt today(more likely), will be another one nap day.
 
kept several days with same A, I found  4.5A -1h15min, 5h-1h30min, it seems like if I want to get  2h, need 6h. I also found he can handle bigger pushes too, he just unhappy on some points, ride it out he still plays well.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on August 13, 2015, 08:49:57 am
Hmm, what I wanted to state is that you cannot go for A times when your routine starts at 5am and you want to change it. You have to go by set times and move set time towards 12ish every couple of days as Kate suggests, not thinking of how long is he awake or so. If you do it in 10-14 days or in 1 day is your decision and I think both are fine. I am just saying that you cannot think of pushing A time, but try to PUSH SET time.
Almost 1yo with a long nap at 10:30 will give you NW  in the early mornings or EWU. That's quite obvious Honey. And the case is that waiting for him to wake later may never happen if you don't push him to do it.

And don't be so afraid of OT Honey. 2:1 transition generally results in OT so that doesn't surprise me at all that  he might me OT. But OT is also a thing you can deal with, ride it out or help him settle.resettle until your routine at least is in a good place.

Quote (selected)
I know the book mentioned for lsn, any sleep before 12 will steal sleep from late night, but is it the only way to do? like Kate's JACK, he is super lsn,  but he did 1.5h at 10:30, still got great night.
I am not mentioning any book Honey - there are many books and many different options you can go for. And even if Jack indeed slept/did something, it doesn't mean your LO will act like that. So you have to go for options which will work for your baby.
And if I am correct, at 11mo Jack wasn't having 1.5h nap at 10:30 Honey but as Kate states rather 12ish nap or even a later one.

And regarding routine long-short and short long - both are totally fine - however some suits  better some children. The most important  difference in my opinion is that for long-short routine you have to push first nap - push, push & push as if that nap is too early it usually results in EWU/ NW. With short-long routine, it doesn't matter so much when the first nap is - it matters however how long this nap is. And if EWU happens, you cut this nap usually instead of pushing the nap.
Which routine is better - both can be fine, but watch-outs for this routine are different.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 13, 2015, 23:16:24 pm
Thanks Martti, yes, as you said, I am afraid  of  OT too much  make things worse now.
 
ladies, It seems at least we are on right direction, your suggestions are valuble.
 I Prefer pushing much now, could you give me a plan if I will push set morning nap to 11:30, when should set cn and BT?

I got a better night after pushing much. two nw around 3:00and 4;00,both around 10~15mins, resettled himself, woke 5:40 happily.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 14, 2015, 06:08:07 am
Great, fingers crossed it continues! I would keep the cn and BT at the set times I gave before.  As you move the first nap later, he's going to be less likely to take the cn as it gets closer to the morning nap, but it's still there in case he's very tired. That way he can self regulate and set the pace for 2 and 1 nap days. I definitely wouldn't move the cn any later in the day or you'll have a very UT boy at bedtime :)  Unless you're willing to move BT back a lot too, but I think you're better off phasing the cn out than extending your day.  To be honest, once you're getting a decent nap at 11.30 you're basically on one nap, and the cn only comes into play when the first nap is short.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on August 14, 2015, 06:15:56 am
I would also do as Kate suggests so set BT at 7pm let's say and catnap do whatever time you can BUT to end it before 5pm. I was doing catnap at 4pm for 30min for ages. When he started to refuse, I was apoping anytime between 4 and 5pm but giving him shorter catnap so 10-15min if the nap was let's say at 4:30.

What's interesting, we were pushing first nap for a long time from 10:00 to 12:00 but for us the catnap was almost the same time. So firstly settling 3:30/4:00, later settling at 4pm. It was very often UT catnap, I apoped many times but it worked. So I wouldn't think that he will refuse catnap
With a long A in the morning he still can be tired in the afternoon for a short nap.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 14, 2015, 23:43:47 pm
Dear all ,
your explanation make me much clear now, thanks very much.

yesterday like this:
wu:5:40(I doubt still a long nw at 1~2am), keep him in dark bedroom till 6:40
nap1:11:35~12:50   1h15min, cann't resettled , he must be unfamiliar with such high A, shorter nap than I expected
nap2: 15:10~16:53   in car.
BT 19:00 , yawns 18:20, but still fell asleep 15mins later, UT?  should I cap the second nap to 30mins? I just want him catch up his OT his nap.
stirred an short woke at 22:30, woke up maybe 5:00 today?

It seems like  he is really a lsn ,right? 12~12.5h total . 13~13.5 is average at his age,right?

Kate, you are totally right, I cann't expect 11h night right now, 10h~10.5h is better I can expect now, 10h most likely.  if I get a decent nap at 11:30, we are on one nap in fact ,like a CT? cn only comes into play when the first nap is short,  if first nap is short, the cn should be 30min max?     

if I get a 2h nap at 11:30, should aim to BT 19:45? to expect a 10~10.5night , wu around 5:45~6:15am. if the nap is 1h30mn, and cn refusal ,aim to 19:15, expect a same wu time?

so above is my queston about BT, early bed time leads to early wu now, right?
I don't want to in a EW rut, 5:00 is too early.
 


Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on August 15, 2015, 06:23:54 am
I think that you cannot think so obsessively about hours of sleep he gets. Really without a proper routine its sometimes very difficult to assess sleep needs. I would bet my son was an lsn a year ago but frankly speaking now I have doubts - he was having 2h nap and sleeping 12h night (slightly less as you count settling and that he is awake at 7am when I come) so it's 14h a day at 17mo!!! A year ago in the middle of nursery settling I thought 2h a day is too much.
And yes I agree that it's unrealistic to expect him to sleep 12h right now but some day soon I really think 11,5 I achievable.

The case with two nap routine is that second nap is needed (sometimes crucial to prevent OT!!!) but can steal from the nap next day (as long nap on the next day is not only an effect of being tired after morning A but also cumulated tiredness from the day before. I wouldn't mind occasional longer nap in the afternoon but here when you are shifting routine I would risk capping this nap to 20min max. And yes, it will result in OT and crash but I would hope he will start eventually sleeping longer on first nap or at night. But this is how I would do it:). You may go much more slowly and gradually, so than cap last nap to maybe 45min, than 30 and finally 20 when the first nap will be a restful one for him but he still will need some sleep in the afternoon.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 15, 2015, 06:43:55 am
these recent days his sleep changed quickly as night getting better. the length of nap at 11:30 vary , yesterday 1h15min, so he accept cn early than 3:30, I thought 45mins is reasonble, but he was ut at 19:00, so yesterday if I aim to BT19:00, Should cap it to 30mins, or BT later, today I got a 1h30mins nap at 11:30, I think he will accept 30min cn at 3:30, cos a long A in morning. so BT 19:00 will be UT too?
when should I push to 12:00 for morning nap,  get more refusal for cn based on decent first nap like 1h30min , or first nap become shorter consistently?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on August 15, 2015, 10:14:19 am
It's your decision Honey but from my experience, I wouldn't change much until something is wrong.
And firstly move to 11:45, than gradually to 12. And don't go for losing catnap at once but go gradually from 30min to 20min to 10min and finally he will refuse catnap some days, and some days he will need those 10-20min

When to change:
- when he is refusing catnap which is even apoped
- if you have early wakings so when you finally are at let's say 7am start of the day - and he will wake earlier and earlier
- when his morning nap will gradually be much too short - but for a time being I would accept some 1:30 naps and even some 1:15

In general I am not a fan of pushing to next routine if it's too early. Shifting a routine (not changing to "older" one) is a different story for me as this is one act of a push not building gradual OT with inappropriate routine.

Re BT- it's your choice. Right now I wouldn't change it as he still is tired and probably many days he still wakes before 7am so his day is long. When your routine is established you may gradually push for slightly later BT but try to keep max 13h day as its most kids' maximum so not to get OT.
Shifting BT from 7 to 7:30 and when on 1 nap go back to 7pm is also a way many mums are able to be longer on 2 naps routine which I like. Remember keep two naps (even if one is shortish) as long as possible as this really should help prevent OT in a longer spell.

Btw, very happy that you say that nights are better! Keeping fx for you!
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 16, 2015, 00:14:58 am
set nap at 11:30 three days, following are recent two days logs.

8.14
Awake 5:40, up 6:40
nap1: 11:35~12:50
nap2: 3:14~4:00      asleep in car easily.
BT:19:00, but took 15mins be asleep.UT
No long NW,maybe around 22:30 short NW

8.15
awake 5:00 ,up 6:20
nap1:11:25~13:00
no nap 2, I drived him out from 3:00, I had thought he would be asleep easliy,he yawned around 3:30, but kept awake till 4:50, have to back home, ate peach in car happliy, no sleep on way back home. :(I felt he was tired at 18:00, quick bath and formula then
BT:18:30, asleep quickly.
two NW :20:30(short Ot)     3:00~4:30
8.16
awake 6:30

I will offer cn everday.  yes, nights are not perfect, but better than before, at least we got some days without long nw. he was awake so early , have to super long A. ON day 8.14, if I cut the cn to 30mins, maybe he would asleep quickly and woke later next day.
if he still keep total sleep around 12~12.5h, it's hard to get a later wu except with long nw.
It just three days, will stick to it.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 17, 2015, 01:27:24 am
sorry bothering you so frequently, must I met another question, he refused apoping for two days,. apop only worked for the first day.
so on 8.15, he refused asleep in car till 4:40,  was unhappy for a while after 3:30. wouldn't calm down for one hour, looked like felt boring in his safetyseat for such a long time.

yesterday like this:
8.16
awake 6:30
nap1: 11:30~12:45
nap2:17:05~17:20 . I drive him out at 14:45pm,  he still yawned like yesterday but didn't be asleep, then he wouldn't sit on safechair, wanted to sit in driver seat, cried loudly. finanlly, was asleep at 17:05, woke him 15mins later, unhappy, looks like very tired, BT19:00, asleep quickly . cried loudly at 12:00. after 2:30am, woke, stirred, light sleep, woke finallly 7:45 this morning happliy.

My question is what do you do apop? in pram or car? when did you go out for it? walk or driving hours till lo asleep? I unstand it's UT nap, which should be more restorative, on day 8.14, he acceptted it early, woke himself and happy after that till BT, but yesterday more like an OT nap, on day 8.15, if I kept driving, maybe he would asleep same around 17:00 too. Like Martti said, no reason he refused it after such  high A, with a not  long enough nap.

he acceptted the nap on car day 8.14 easily, so I am confused with the refusal on day 8.15 and 8.16, the night followed was worse.
It looks like when I try to some plan, only first day worked for him, then changed no reason.

these two days cn refusal are similiar ,  unlike an one off , any thoughts?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on August 17, 2015, 05:44:26 am
Honey it depends. I was riding a car or going for a walk in a stroller but I would never drive for 2h! I didn't have time:). My experience was also that if I try for a catnap to late or too early it resulted in refusal. Hi naps after 4:30 were very difficult to get no matter how much sleep he had during day and before 3:30 I didn't even bothered.

I'm a stroller he also needed time to get used to catnapping. So no matter which way you are using, if your previous naps weren't much often in a car or a stroller he may need time to get used.

Re first nap, it's still an overtired one I guess as he was doing longer ones with shorter A but also his long NWs stopped, am I right? So he has no sleep to catch up. I would keep 11:30 nap and try for it for next couple of days. Maybe you could consider slightly earlier BT for days without a catnap if he is sleeping until 7:45!
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 17, 2015, 07:00:15 am
so maybe I tried the catnap too early? I worry about refusal, so start it too early, should began around 3:15pm? 14:45 was too early? he was asleep in car or pram many times before, but on different time.


Re first nap, the night for 8.13 still had long nw, so the nap on 8.14 maybe a overtired one after shorter one, and he accept the cn easliy. on 8.16, still shorter A, short nap. the only longer one is based on night without NW, but super long A.

should I wake him on 7:00 this morning,? I just worry about if wake him, he may meltdown before 11:30, he just fell asleep before 6am.
 
Thanks for your patience.

He was clingy from yesterday,  it seems like OT.

Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 21, 2015, 03:47:46 am
Hi,
good news is he accept cn in car.

but anything else improved little, nap at 11:30, nap of lengh varied from 1h10~1h20, so LO acceptted the cn these days in car, at 16:00pm, 20max, but he woke still too early, cann't get a wu after 5:30, some nw here and there, some longer as one hour at from 1:00 or 2:00a,, short at 3:00, 4:00, .
8.17
WU 7.45 (long nw, cos he took the cn too late at 17:00)
nap1:11:35~12:45
nap2:15:50~16:10
BT:19:00
8.18
wu 6:35( nw 1:00∑2:00, short nw, 3:00,4:00)
nap1: 11:32~12:47
nap2:15:50~16:15  woke himself
BT:19:00, asleep 15mins later
8.19
wu 6:00 (nw 2:00~3;00)
nap1:11:30∑12:45
nap2:15:50~16:09 I woke
BT:19:00
NW: some short nw maybe
wu:5:20

It seems like it took him three days back to normal wu, but once long nw gone, he just woke up early, then it will be too long to 11:30, short nap again, EW or long nw, I had it at least one, even 10.5 night is hard to get with such less sleep. once he woke from main nap, cann't resettle cos it at least 1h. once he woke on morning, he was always happy.
shoud I push set nap time?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 21, 2015, 05:56:10 am
I think I would.  We've tried it the other way with a shorter A... For Lily and Jack that cn would be what's causing problems - both of them had a point in the day where all sleep had to be done or it affected nights. Jack is super low sleep needs but even at around 8/9 months any sleep after 2.30 was a problem for us, for example. But I know that worked ok for marta's LO, so she may have some suggestions? That's the thing, they're all so different, it's a case of trying different things until you stumble upon something that works!

Marta - what do you think?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 21, 2015, 06:53:00 am
  I felt the cn play a positive role in his total sleep, even 20min , but the main nap cann't be consistent with a decent length, so when nap is 1h10~1h15min, sometimes UT nap, sometimes ot nap, and cann't resettle, then cn is necessary.
it's so  contradictory.
now, inconsistent wu, inconsistent nap length, and it seems like once a cn was not on a right time, right length, or miss,everything will be much mess, bad circle.
From mum's instinct and his history logs for months,I still think he is a lsn, now if I want to get a decent nap like 1.5h, his A could be 5~5.5h after a bad night, 5.5~6,  after a better night. From this week, I also found if he took 10mins at BT or main nap, he always was ut, if he was  tired , he settled quickly.
his ideal routine may be wu 6, BT 7, nap 1.5h, at 12or 12:30, one solid nap , just it's no way to get there now.

I never got a solid 2h, even got, mostly like compensation for night, then result in disaster in following night.

so kate, you mean push to 12, still offer cn at 3:30, BT 19:00, If that, most likely he will refuse cn at 3:30, except the main nap is an OT one, and less than 1h15min,. I hate the nap 1h15min, if the nap

he will be 12month next week. I saw many other posts about lsn, they got their mum crazy like me. it seems like once we cann't figure it out before 12month, it will
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 21, 2015, 07:08:31 am
 never be figured out, :'(
sorry , a mistake, I felt the cn play a passive role in his total sleep
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 21, 2015, 07:24:27 am
My lsn boy drove me crazy too... That's why set naps worked for me - it stopped me agonising and assessing so much.  We rarely got a 2hr nap either btw, even on one nap - 1hr 15/20 was normal for us and 2 sleep cycles.

I can't quote on my phone but yes, I'd do what you said in your paragraph starting "so kate...". That worked for us, though it did take a while to get fully through the transition and 12 months is a big developmental time too. He may be nearer 13 months before things settle.... But if you think his A time is 5-6 hrs then he should definitely just be on one nap, in my opinion. And if his total sleep is 12-12.5 hrs in 24 then he probably only does need a 1hr 20 nap to get a decent night.

It's something else to try, anyway!
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on August 21, 2015, 09:25:59 am
Ahh, I say I have to think...:). I need to go through you logs Gejun as this starts to confuse me.

Nap is shorter than it was when at 9:30/10:00am which may mean something - but I have to think if this can be OT or maybe UT. Catnap is also something which may interfere. The other thing is habit - if he has a habit of sleeping 10.5h at night we have to break the habit and pushing nap may not be enough. Have you ever tried W2S? I need to think a bit and will post in the evening, ok?

No to mention that my ASN son who was sleeping 2h for last 3 months on his nap and still doing 12h nights needed 1 nap at 12mo and was sleeping less in February than he is sleeping now:)!
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 21, 2015, 10:37:31 am
wise Martti,

I haven't tried wake to sleep, I am not confident with how to do it.  :(I also found if the 1.5h nap based on a super longer A, was not be restorative as expected, but anything else I can do if he woke before 5:30?

yes, my logs are really mess, sleep in, odd nap, multiple nw,  fixture of ot and ut. some nw at 22:30 maybe ot, cried loudly.  super EW,

the long nw at 3/4/5 disappeared, but one hour nw at 1/2/3 appeared, ot?  short nw or stirred, or moaning appeared at  3/4/5, I am lost at it.

I got several longer nap as 1.5h based on 5~5.5A before set nap 11:30, but all base on long nw night. and the latest 1.5h nap occured on 8.15, which is 6.5A, he fighted cn that day, it just curious why he  cried loudly sometimes in car,if not sleepy, why not playing but crying,  and sometime took cn easliy, .
about habit of 10.5h , I think two months ago, we had several sleep through with 11h, do you remember I tried 20mins morning bridge nap, aim to 2h noon nap? I got several good 11h night with broken 2h noon nap and short noon nap like 1h20min, but based on good night, once got solid 2h noon nap, night became worse, then noon nap became shorter, night became better,  it's so unstable, so I gave it up.

now nap after 4pm really a fight, like CIO in car, he like playing in car, and if the cn closed to 5pm, it was a disaster for night.

his mood after nap 1h10min~1h15min is odd, looks like confused with it. with 1h30 , much better.

Kate, I prefer set naps and BT too, I am not skilled of play A. why you set BT at 19:45, early BT:19:15? based on 7am wu? I kept BT at 19:00,cos I think wu is 5:30~6:00 possibly, but now wu without long nw was 5:00~5:30, too long to noon, and he took several times cn closed to 4pm, not 3:30.
it's hard now seem like I missed the window for transition.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 21, 2015, 13:26:21 pm
If he's waking at 6 at the latest, I'd do a 7pm BT too.  I think at the time I said 7.45 BT because he was having those long nws and waking at 7 or 8am. I found with J that a 13hr day was about right, up to 14 hrs on occasion if things went wrong for a day, but no more than 13.5hrs routinely.  So if he's waking 5.30 - 6 then I'd say 7pm is about right  :)  We did 6.40 - 7 for a while on that wu, where 6.40 was an EBT  and 7 normal.

I'll refrain from commenting on anything else to give marta a chance to have a think and come back to you :)  :-*
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 22, 2015, 05:41:03 am
Thanks Kate,I kept the day with long nw too short maybe.
Marta,I think he maybe some OT now, looks clingy. some short nw and stirred on midnight may be indicated ot?
he showed tired cues at 10:30.(wu 5:35, some short nw) he slept 1h30mins at 11:30 today, but cried at 35mins.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 30, 2015, 02:22:38 am
Hi Kate,
sorry to bother you again. ds will be 12month two days later.  I found his total sleep is 12h max, I cann't get any 1.5h nap except for after a  bad night or short night like 10hrs.
could you post your routine at 12month and 13month?
I remmbered you mentioned still had nw at 12month with 1h20min nap, what's the nw length?
 and nw disappeared when he nap reduced to 45~60mins?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 30, 2015, 05:28:58 am
I will look it up later and post it, but we were on one set nap at around 12 by then I think.  I'll double check and let you know - we're travelling today and heading off shortly.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 30, 2015, 06:06:19 am
Ok, it was easier to find than I thought :) This is what we were doing at around 12 months:

WU: 6 - 6.15
Nap: 12.15 - 2.30
BT: 7.30

If I remember correctly, the 2hr naps didn't last long - I  had to push them back to 12.30 / 12.45 before long, and we were still getting one or two long nws a week on that routine. After 13 months I toughened up on how I treated nws, J slept more at night and his naps shortened by themselves to 45-60 minutes.  He still did 1hr 20 if he was tired for a little while, but we were starting nnds by 18/19 months I think, so it didn't last long!

We've only had one long nw since 13 months and that was when nursery let him nap in the afternoon (3ish I think). He was later to bed and up at 4am the next day :(
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on August 30, 2015, 10:32:26 am
so his total sleep in 24hours at 12, 13 month is around 11.5~12hr?  :osuper lsn!when he drop the nap, did his sleep need reduced again?
I hope ds is not so much lsn, hope I could figure it out in one month.  is possible it total sleep on one nap more than on two naps?I found we can only got 12hrs max sleep on two naps now.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on August 30, 2015, 16:56:46 pm
When we got to the point where total sleep was less on 2 naps than with one then we went cold turkey to one nap, so yes, it is possible to get more sleep on one nap, but usually only in the latter stages of a transition.

Yeah, J is super lsn. Just before he completely dropped his nap his overall sleep dropped to 11 - 11.5hrs in 24. We're currently hovering at about that now - most nights are 11hr 15 with the occasional one shorter it longer.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on September 04, 2015, 00:08:57 am
Hi Kate,
I am again need some advice, now I hit some point I think. I found I can only get 12h max total sleep in 24hs on two naps, but 12.5hrs on one nap.
 the latest wu I got on two naps was 5:20, it looks like i want to get a 10.5hr night sleep, wu 5:30, only chance is  leaving a 1.5hr for day sleep,but 1.5h days sleep for two naps is difficult. 1.5h morning nap with a 15mins cn or 1hr15min with a 20mins maybe?

I also found andy cn after 16:00 will result in UT at bt, then disturb the night. and if the bedtime was too early, he took over 10mins to be asleep, which means super UT for him, leading to early wu or ut nw.some day I got a 1.5h, and offer a 15mins cn closed to 16:00, then leading to UT at bed time and a 40mins nw .

I got two sleep through this week, night sleep was about 11hs20mins with a UT morning nap 1h10~1h15mins based on very late wu(7~8am, sleep in), then ended up the day with early bed time, . then another  45mins UT nap at 11:30am,   he accepted cn at 3:30pm, woke him 20mins later,  should I allow more sleep for cn if morning nap is so short? but if more, he may UT at bedtime, last night only 10hrs, so less day sleep didn't lead to a longer night on two naps.  like a circle. I can identify UT or OT nap cos his much differrnt mood with them.

so my question is I think I am in the late transition, should head to one nap now,nothing improved with two naps,  but I cann't get a later wu time like 6:00am based on BT 19:00 and two naps, even if I get a wu closed to 6, but could short night effect A much?  or should I aim for a early routine as  wu5:30   s11:30  bt 18:30 firstly or even 5:00, 11:00, 18:00, then tweak it later?

How did you  deal with the cold turcky ?I also remmbered you mentioned J got a long nw once cos his nap too late, then woke up at 4:00 am, how to deal with it?sorry so many questions, Just feel so closed to one nap but cann't break the circle now.
 
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on September 05, 2015, 07:13:23 am
I think when you get to this point it's easiest to just move to a set nap time tbh, and just hold on for a bumpy ride! Your suggestion of a set nap at 11.30 initially sounds good, and you can move it 20 minutes either way depending on WU, but that's it.  Otherwise you hold on,  and trust that things will even out in the end. E.g. If you get an UT EW, then I'd hold on for as close to a normal nap time as you can, knowing he'll get a little OT but also that he can probably handle it as a one off. Then I'd resettle any nap less than 1.5hrs and stick with a normal BT.  It's the only way you can avoid BT getting earlier and /or that afternoon A getting really long and / or getting stuck on 2 naps.

The only exception I'd make is if you can see he's getting tired after 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 (however many) one nap days, then I'd try and AP a 15 minute cn a couple of hours after WU, and then do normal nap time, or slightly later. Then go back to one nap days the next day, no matter how the night is.  So you're using the 2 nap days to catch up and then going back to one nap.  I don't know how often you'll need 2 nap days, but I'd only use them if you're sure he's getting OT. It sounds like he really needs to be on one nap and you may have to push him and put up with the OT to get there.

I think I'd aim for a BT of 6.45 to avoid really early WUs, and do 6.30 if he's had a long day by that point  (over 13.5 hrs) or a bad nap, or 7pm BT if WU is late that day and he's had less than 12 hrs by that point.  It won't always work out exactly that way but basically I'd use 6.30 as an EBT, rather than normal BT.  If you're not going to get more than 10.5 / 11 hrs at night no matter what you do, there's no point in going any earlier cos WU will just be hideous!  You might as well try and get a normal BT where you can  :)
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on September 06, 2015, 06:14:22 am
thanks you mentioned some situation we may meet ,  the big problem is the  lengh of nap  unconsistent now, I cann't resettle him, once he woke , he just woke, no chance to back to sleep. I had got 45~1h15mins nap at 12:00am three times,  his mood before and  after the nap was good, if I tried to a small cn like 15mins closed to 16:00pm, always got EW, may be OT,but if offer a longer nap at 15:30, I am afraid much ut too.. I also tried to early BT like 18:00, got a longer night, always longer than 11hrs, but ew too. which one is better  you think?  I think at present maybe early BT is better? though ew, but longer night may more restorative to let us getting to nap time? if he knows no chance for cn, he may sleep longer at nap in future days?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on September 07, 2015, 21:05:59 pm
Is your nap length inconsistent after similar A times, or is he still getting the long nws and pushing WU later on some days? I still think a set nap time is the way to go, but it'll probably take a while for him to settle into it.  You could always offer a very short cn as early in the afternoon as you think he'll take it.  Do you think he'll do 15 minutes at 3 / 3.30 if he only does a short nap at 12?

Otherwise I'd stick with it - it can take a few weeks after being fully on one nap for it to lengthen so it may just be something you have to ride out  :-\  I think after a while they do get used to not getting a cn and start sleeping longer for their main nap.

With BT I agree,  an earlier, longer night is probably better at this stage if he'll do it, then you can work on shifting it later if he transitions to one nap ok. I would just base it on the longest night you think he'll do and what time you want WU to be and go from there.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on September 09, 2015, 09:00:18 am
nap length inconsistent is because different wu for nw still I think.

yes, I agree setting nap is the only way to do now.
i think he will accept 15 minutes at 3 / 3.30 if he only does a short nap at 12. 
yesterday he napped 2hr at 11:30, BT:18:50.  after a peaceful night till 4:30, he woke and won't sleep again.

how do you cope with this super wu? I remmbered you mentioned J woke 4:00am someday with a late nap.

I think DS may wu super early tomorrow again.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on September 09, 2015, 10:09:01 am
When was the last time you tried short morning nap? Like 10-15min around 9am?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on September 09, 2015, 11:53:56 am
he woke at 4:30, today the cn was around 8:50am, 19mins, then nap at 12:10pm, 1h 27mins, .  BT 18:30, the day is too long, so I put him down at 18:30. I felt he will woke 4:30~5:00am too tomorrow or wake up late with some nw maybe. do you think 20mins is too much and too early?  I fell it is  contradictory, if offer less sleep, he may cann't reach a reasonable BT, if more sleep, night may shorter, so confused with how to deal with this super wu.
 
at this stage, it seems like if I did a mistake on one day,  things will be off track. we had got some sleep through nearly 10.5h night, wu 5:20~5:30am.but I made some mistake after that, the last mistake is several days ago, he did a UT nap 45mins at 12:00am after a late wu at 6:30(nw) ,  then I offer a cn at 3:30, only 15mins, BT 19:00, but we got a OT wu 5:15am, so I think if next time we get a short nap(less than 1h) , he may accept cn around 3:15(2.5h after nap, I noticed if he did a short nap or an ot nap, he may accept cn soon ), should I let him sleep around 40mins? offer total sleep 1.5h at least to avoid OT?   

if we back to track quickly, back to wu around 5:30 am , we may face two choice,  I don't know which one is reasonable.

one is  nap still at 11:30, maybe we got 1.5h nap,  BT 18:30, expect a 11h night? then expect settled on routine 5:30, 11:30, BT6:30. then shift it half an hour back.

or nap at 12:00, may get a OT nap like 1h10mins(after a short night 10.5h, and 6.5A), he may take a cn at 3:40, offer 20mins, BT 19:00, will still get a 5:30wu, but expect he will nap longer at 12:00,like 1.5hs, BT18:30 too or 19:00?

when we are on one nap, how to shift routine back, if keep same BT as 18:30, could wu become late if only pushing nap. or should put back BT too, he may ot, but it's inevitably , it looks like will be an odd phase he has to cope with both long A before nap and after nap.,

sorry too many quesion, I don't want to make any mistake again.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on September 10, 2015, 10:05:00 am
How about doing as marta suggested and doing a 10-15 minute cn at 9ish if he EWs, with a long nap at 12ish? If an afternoon cn is making him EW the next day then I'd try moving it to the morning.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: Martini~ on September 10, 2015, 11:06:51 am
I would say do 10-15min (i think timing is not crucial here as this nap is tiny) and then follow with a nap at 12:30 for up to 2h.  WDYT?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on September 23, 2015, 06:39:16 am
hi ladies, DS was unwell and recovery now. a quick question about BT time, we were still on set nap time at 11:30 cos wu was still about early around 5:30, and he was unwell last week,I thought 18:30 is normal BT with a 1.5hrs one nap on a 13hrs day, if nap was short ,and he took a cn like 15mins, then BT 19:00 on a 13.5hrs day.

but on days if nap was less than 1.5hrs. for example a 1h18mins nap, he refused a cn at afternoon, BT 18:00, but still got a 40mins nw at 4:30am, confused with the nw UT or OT.Today wu is 5:40am, with a short nw at 22:30 and 4:00 maybe, so around a normal 10.5hrs night(two nap yesterday), I got a 1h18mins again at 11:30am,.don't know if BT 18:00 or 18:30.

In addition, is there a development at 12~13months? he always accepted nap and BT easily no matter ut or ot before. but he began walking last week, and could understand more language I think,he suddenly began fighting nap and BT time, at nap time, he cried and want to go out of bedroom,  it always took him 10~15mins to aleep at nap time, today is better, only 3mins.  and took 15~20mins at BT time,cried too, if took him out of cot, he would be asleep 20~25mins on another big bed in his room, no cry. it seems like he don't want to sleep, he just want to play, I had thought he was ut or OT at nap or BT, but he fights both of them.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on September 24, 2015, 14:31:55 pm
Yes, there is a developmental leap at 12/13 months, which could also explain the confusing nws. There's also often an A time leap around that age.  How many days a week are you doing 1 nap now, and how many days 2 naps? 
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on September 24, 2015, 23:44:31 pm
I think a week we did  one nap on three days. like you said, some day he accepted the cn, some day he refused it. the tricky thing now is the length for cn , because of some short nw, wu is around 5:30~6:30am, once the moring nap is 1h15~1h27mins, he took the cn closed to 15:45~16:00pm , so I think 15~20mins are reasonable, but two days ago, after a 1h18mins nap(with a better night), he took the cn at 16:00pm, I allowed only 12mins cos it was so late, he was very odd around 18:00pm, maybe ot for short cn? I am not sure how many day sleep should offer on different length of a day.It looks like 1.5hrs needed for 13hrs day on one nap, but on 13.5hs day, I don't know if 1.5hr is enough, I did got a 10.5hrs sleep through only a short cry at 4:00am,with a 1h15min nap and 20mins cn .

he accept nap easliy yesterday, and he suddenly walked himself , hope the development will end soon.

I found being consistent is key, I made some mistake for someday I was not consistent on nap time, will avoid it in future.

Do you think still setting nap at 11:30am is reasonable now? I think it's equal to at 12:00am if BT is same. If we can be stable on one nap, then pushing nap time may get a later wu?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on September 25, 2015, 08:44:30 am
sign, this 16:15pm, he refused cn the third days after a 1h15mins nap at 11:30am. maybe should pushing set nap at 12:00? may got a decent nap ,or ot nap then he may accept a cn. I was lost about BT after a 1h15mins nap at 11:30, yesterday BT18:00, asleep 10mins later with fighting, he still had some short nw or light sleep after 3:00am, but didn't expected me too, wu 5:30 today. it seems like a longer night even with some nw is still more restorive than short night without nw.  it's confused why nap is still short after 6h, and if this nap is ot nap, it's odd he didn't take the cn even APOP, right?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on September 25, 2015, 17:07:49 pm
It depends, J was doing UT naps after 6hrs A at that age.  He's certainly not average, but it's not out of the realms of what's possible. I suspect you need to push through the 2-1 now.  If he's naturally doing 3 X 1 nap days a week, you probably can try pushing his nap to 12 and then only offer a very short cn if he's really struggling.  We couldn't get away with a cn that late in the day at this age - I suspect you just need to go for one nap and reserve cn only to get over OT.  There will be some,  it's inevitable, but at least you'll know he's not UT!

What do you think?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on September 25, 2015, 17:10:01 pm
By the way, I don't know if you've seen this but there's a good 2-1 support thread here:

Support Thread for 2-1 Nap Transition cont'd pt 6

Sometimes it's nice to chat to others going through the same thing as well  :)
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on September 25, 2015, 23:54:25 pm
I agree with you totally, yesterday he fell asleep at 18:15pm in seconds,   there was nw at 20:30, then sleeping through to 5:40am today, so this week fighting on BT and nap ,and slight sleep at early morning may be still all UT! will pushing to 12:00 today.

It's so nice talking with you, the experience you gave me about lsn baby is very useful, I am confident now.
I will offer a cn except he is very tired, now I am so fear of UT than OT!
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on September 26, 2015, 05:34:29 am
Yes, UT has always caused us way more problems than OT.  When J is OT it's really obvious, he crashes and we all get a good night's sleep.  When he's UT I used to spend ages puzzling over what was going on and tweaking before getting anywhere,  all with nws and ews going on in the meantime!
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on October 08, 2015, 23:51:45 pm
I need an advice of BT on one nap day, I think I made an mistake of cn, is it possible he still took it with tears , but in fact he needn't it?
I found after a 1h15~1h30mins nap, he may still took cn around 16:00~16;30, but with many tears recently.
so if after a sleeping through night from 19:00~5:30am,  then a 1h30min nap from 11:30~13:00, BT 18:00 0R 18:30?? the proper tired BT time is always 1.5h or 2h after the time LO taking the cn?

I think he may still accept a cn at 16:15~16:30 if I force it, but will lead to a bad night,  many short cry , stirred. 
I think a 1.5h nap in the 13hrs day is right if on consistent one nap, but at the first stage of one nap, should it be 12.5h or 13h ?

 last week, after a bad night, we got 1h25mins nap at 11:30am, I tried a BT 18:00, but got short cry at 20:20, then stirred or short nw at 2:00am, 3:00am, 4:00am, woke at 5;00am, then quiet or light sleep to 5:30, then cried 5:45. don't know if he was UT or OT at BT18:00, after two days like these , he was OT, I had to back one or two days of two naps days to get better but shorter nights. like a circle and hard to get out of it.

I feel so close to the answer, afraid of failing to trial.
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: LovelyLilyandJack on October 09, 2015, 16:09:58 pm
We always did fine on 13 hour days when nap dropping and had to go to 14 hour days on nap days. So I'd do BT at 6.30 as it seems your LO is similar with the short nights. I wonder if it's time to ditch the cn too? He's been going through the transition for a while now - he may well manage better without it now. What do you think?
Title: Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
Post by: gejun on October 10, 2015, 00:22:39 am
I think 13hours is fine with 1.5hs nap too if he is normal status, but yesterday I suspected he may super OT this week , he slept 1h30mins with 6hrs after wu, I resettled at 52mins, he always cann't be resetted except super ot, slept from 18:10 to 6:00, some short cry or nws during night(21:30, 3:00:5:00maybe). this super long night indicated OT built up?

Does short cry or short nw always indicate ot?if he is Ot now, we may need one or two catch up days, which one you think better for catch up days?one nap day with EBT, or two nap day with normal BT?  I feel he can tack on with EBT like yesterday,but when should be EBT is tricky, if he is not so tired as yesterday ,he may not always tack on with 12hs night, may be 11.5h today.
I Prefer ditching the cn,  he fighted it even Ap.  If we can get a 1.5 nap today, maybe EBT, if shorter maybe still need a cn to normal BT?