BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: centrestage88 on August 02, 2015, 03:43:53 am
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I know that lo's nap schedule always changes but it isleaving me overwhelmed. I don't know when to change it. I used to put him down following sleepy cues ard 2 hrs but now at 5 months, his sleepy cues are going and his naps have shortened to 45 mins. do I just follow the average A times for a 5 month old? I read that it is abt 2.5 hrs now?
He gets fussy ard 2 hrs but if I carry him or play with him he becomes happy and can stay happily awake for 3-4hrs. How come he doesn't show signs of being OT?
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Fussiness at this age could be two (or more) things other than being ready for a nap.
- LOs can get into the habit of going for a nap at a certain time, so they ready themselves for the nap even though they are not thoroughly tired. If LO is put down for the nap early this can lead to a short nap.
- LOs can show fussiness when they would like to change activity, remember your baby doesn't have many ways to communicate yet, fussing can mean 'please move me' so playing with him makes him happy again.
WRT the A time extending to 3-4hrs. Mine was always on the higher end of A times, more like a baby who was older. It's certainly possible that your baby can handle a 3hr A time and then take a nice nap.
Taking into account your current level of anxiety and that naps are raising your anxiety level, I would suggest picking a 3hr A time and just sticking with it regardless of short or long nap. If OT begins to build up then your baby will take a longer nap. Some parents find set nap times offer a greater sense of the days routine, perhaps this would be an option for you? Then regardless of WU time you would put LO down at the same time every day - what do you think?
There are many babies on set nap times (for whatever reason) who are well rested.
Due to our family circumstances I used A times (and increased as needed) for the first nap of the day but the second and third naps were more towards the 'set nap' sort of routine (and both in the car) although I would say I was neither working totally with A times nor totally with set naps - I worked with what worked as a compromise taking everyone's needs into account and doing the best I could do.
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Thks creations. If I were to try put him on a 3hr A schedule, does it mean that I will be looking at a 2 nap schedule for him?
i tried him on a 2.5 A schedule
Day 1 and 2:
3 naps : 1hr( woke up crying) 1hr( crying), 0.5 hr( I capped the last one and woke him up at 530pm) so that he would go to bed at 730pm)
Today though he napped so weirdly. 2.5A schedule
2 naps: 1hr( woke up crying), 2.5hrs( woke up happily at 2.5 hrs and sucked his fingers for the next 45 minutes. Would have happily continued to suck fingers but I went in to pick him up cos it was feeding time)
Bedtime: 730pm ( v sleepy )
If he wakes fr a nap at 2.5 hrs but lies there happily without fussing for the next 45 mins do I count the nap as 3hr 15 mins or 2.5 hrs?
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I am cautious to contradict advice you may have received on other threads wrt sleep routines. There are many ways a baby can sleep, set naps is just one of them. My thoughts were that this route may help to reduce your anxiety some or at least help towards a predictable routine for you.
A set 3hr routine would look something like:
WU 7
A
nap 10 - 11.30
A
nap 2.30 - 4.00
A
BT 7pm
Please bare in mind this is based on a LO doing a 12hr night, some don't do 12hr nights (mine didn't), I would need to know a little more about your LOs routine/habits to know if this was suitable. The naps would be at set times regardless of 1hr sleep or 2.5hr sleep so although in the example above I have shown 1.5hr nap for both naps this is not something you would worry yourself over. Similarly the naps remain set at the times regardless of morning WU time, so if baby woke at 6.30am one day you would still do nap at 10am, if baby woke at 7.30am the next day you would still do nap at 10am.
With set nap and BTs you can still vary the time a bit based on how baby is that day and cues you are picking up on but the focus is on you knowing when you are aiming for.
This sort of routine does not suit all parents, there may be a worry of baby becoming OT however if you do a regular wind down and regular naps at the times your baby will soon learn these are the times to sleep and will sleep to his needs. It really can work and does work for many. Even on BW where we mostly try to follow EASY there are circumstances where set naps are used.
This sort of routine can also be really helpful for asking others to care for your baby. You don't have to give them a mile long list of if he wakes at x then nap at y or if he wakes at a then do b...you can tell them a nap time and leave it at that. This may offer you more chance of a rest or to get out for some Y time, a jog or breath of air, an appointment etc.
WRT the times you give above I'd say the 1hr nap sounds UT, baby is tired enough to fall to sleep and even transition into a second cycle but not tired enough to sleep a fully restorative sleep.
By the second day you show he has likely built up some tiredness which has allowed him to take a lovely long nap. You really don't need to scrutinise every nap length, your baby is showing here he can sleep 1hr or sleep 2.5 when he needs it. let that give you confidence in his ability to take to his needs.
If he wakes fr a nap at 2.5 hrs but lies there happily without fussing for the next 45 mins do I count the nap as 3hr 15 mins or 2.5 hrs?
After a 2.5hr nap I would just get him up, it's plenty long enough.
I hope this helps.
Many hugs for today x
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Thks creations for the suggested plan. I really respect all advice that all you lovely ladies on this board have given me. Yes, they are all different but I am very grateful for the time and effort that all of you are giving me. Like everyone has told me, all babies are different, and I will try to incorporate the advice that I feel will work best for my situation and baby.
A really busy day for me and I've just finally had time to check the Internet. Baby slept surprising well today though! I hadn't expected that.
Will write back tomorrow!
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It's sounds like you had a better day :) That's good to hear.
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thanks for the =) creations.
yesterday baby slept amazingly. i dont know what happened. my family came over and tired him out perhaps. I expected him to be overstimulated but he went down for all naps and bedtime almost immediately.
Lo is currently 5 mths 2 weeks.
Re the 3 hr schedule, wouldnt that mean that lo feeds before napping? Isnt that what we are supposed to avoid?
Also, would the 3 hr schedule be backtracking? Lo is currently on a 4hr schedule and doesnt cry for food in between. Yesterday, he went 5 hrs and would have gone longer had I not woken him up to feed and so that he would go to bed on time.
Since beginning of 4 months, he has been on a 4 hr day feed schedule)
Bedtime fixed at 730pm. WU:730am. (12hrs including 1 night feed 4-530am)
total 5 feeds a day.
Yesterday, he only had 4 feeds the whole 24 hrs day.
Last night, he STTN fr 745pm-715am. ( amazing!) and wasnt even hungry when he woke up. He wasnt even hungry when I fed him at 8am!
Yesterday: ( but atypical day as my family was over the whole day)
WU: 715am ( i picked him up at 730am . he was playing happily by himself)
E: 8am ( after his shower)
nap: 945- 1145 ( i picked him up at 1215. he was playing happily)
E:1215pm
nap: 240-510pm ( I had to wake him up! so that he would zzz at 730pm)
E:510pm
BT: 740pm
STTN (!!!)
today:
WU: 715am ( played happily. picked him up at 730am)
E: 8am (after his shower)
E: 9am (he wasnt hungry but I offered him the breast as I was afraid he would be hungry as he STTN) (on hindsight, am wondering if this feed was necessary?)
N:945am-1150am ( currently still napping!)
Do you think a routine like this is possible?
Where to space his feeds? (you mentioned 3hrs. Lo can go at least 4 hrs and even longer though. But if with the 3hr A time, sometimes time between the feeds can go up to 5 hrs. will he be too hungry and that will interfere with his sleep?)
I would like him to STTN if possible. ( but 1 NF is not a problem) but is it possible to STTN with 4 feeds during the day? ( and will it affect my BM supply?)
His doesnt reach for things and he cant sit up yet, so i dont know if he will be ready for solids at 6 months.
WU:730am
F:8am
N:10am
F:? (12moom)
N: 230pm or 330pm? (I have to leave at 245pm-315pm to pick my niece up. My mum is at home and can help me look after lo during this time)
F:? (4-5pm dpd on when he wakes up)
F and Zz: 730pm
NF: up to him
I hope Im not writing too much and making things too confusing.
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I think I may have confused you with saying a "set 3 hr routine". I do not mean back tracking to a 3hr EASY which is based on feeding every 3 hrs. I mean set nap times which are initially set based on 3hr A time but then you stick to the set times for naps regardless of WU times and nap length, rather than a flexible routine where you keep working out A times throughout the day. The point of the set naps idea is to increase predictability in the day and (with hope) reduce the anxiety over sleep. I remember you mentioned finding the unpredictability of the day difficult.
So this routine then (which is just a guide) is worked out by giving 3hrs A time, but then *setting* the times so each day you do naps at the same time regularly rather than worrying when baby woke and timing the A from then. It means if he takes a 1.5hr nap you still put him down the same time for the next nap, if he takes a 2hr nap you still put him down the same time for the next nap:
A set 3hr routine would look something like:
WU 7
A
nap 10 - 11.30
A
nap 2.30 - 4.00
A
BT 7pm
WRT E times. The 4hr EASY is for roughly 4 month olds. As baby grows feeding becomes more efficient (taking more milk in less time) which often enables them to go longer between milk feeds. It is perfectly normal for the E times to extend to more like 5hrs especially when the nap comes between and so baby doesn't feel hungry at 4hrs because he is sleeping and also because he likely took more at the earlier feed. This 5hr spacing between feeds is something you are already seeing. I need to add, not *all* babies can go 5hrs between feeds and those who can go 5hrs between some feeds may not be able to go 5hrs between every feed. Certainly when solids are introduced baby is eating far more regularly than before as solids meals come between milk feeds but the milk feeds may extend from 3 or 4 hrs up to more like 5hrs. And as baby approaches 10-12 months 1 or 2 of the milk feeds may be switched to a solids snack meaning that milk feeds no longer come at set intervals like they do for a young baby.
With that in mind then here is an option of set naps with the E times indicated:
WU 7.00
E 7.00
A
nap 10.00 - 11.30
E 11.30
A
nap 2.30 - 4.00
E 4.00
A
E 6.30/45
BT 7pm
But I must reiterate not all babies will go these longer lengths between milk feeds until they are a little older and until solids are introduced, this is why you may be advised on another thread that it is ok to 'top up' feed before a nap. If your baby does not need or want the top up feed that is ok too, and from the routines you have posted it looks like he is happy to get a big feed and go the longer times between E, and also take some lovely long naps too!
If you compare the routine set out above (3hr A time but on set naps allowing for 1.5hr nap but the point is that it's fine if baby naps longer, 2hrs is fine) you will see it is almost identical to the routine you have suggested in your post (which gives a 2.5hr A time and a 2hr nap).
WRT STTN without a feed - it is absolutely normal for a baby this age to have a feed at night (or even 2), however if he sleeps and doesn't wake with hunger in the night then he is telling you his sleep is more important to him than getting a feed. it's fine. Try not to worry. Your body will continue to produce the amount of milk he needs. If you go some nights without night feeds that's ok. If he begins to wake at night for a feed again that's ok too, this could be a growth spurt making him naturally more hungry and the increased demand for feeds signals to your body to increase milk supply.
I know you are unsure about starting solids at 6 months. Here is a link to the WHO (world Health Organisation) guide. You will see they advise to begin solids in a *timely* manner, meaning at 6 months.
http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/complementary_feeding/en/
A couple of weeks either way is unlikely to make any difference and really just allows for the individuality of your baby. I wouldn't hold off too long though. Offering one or teaspoons of purée or a piece of finger food is all hat is needed in the early days. Little tastes of things once or twice per day.
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Thks creations. I have more questions that I hope you can help with!
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You're welcome. I am glad to help with further questions if I can :)
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Thanks creations for the suggested plan.
Are the E times fixed regardless if he wake up earlier than 1.5hrs? ( of course unless he in hungry) Eg: he wakes up 11am instd of 1130am. Do I feed him at 11am or stick to 1130am?
How do I know if he needs a top up? What are the signs of a hungry baby at his age? Is rooting still a sign of hunger at 5 mths?
He woke up an hour for his morning nap and was crying. He was fussy and had to be carried( stopped fussing but wld start again if put down)I didn't feed him upon waking and fed him only half an hour at the scheduled time. How do I tell if he just was tired but could not get back to zzz or if he was hungry?
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Now I'm getting anxious over feeding. :(
Wrt top ups: wouldnt top ups encourage snacking? I'm confused, cos baby whisperer mentioned that it would encourage snacking.
My lo seems okay with the long durations, but now I'm worried that he can't take it.
Now I can't decide if and when he needs a top up. And if he needs a top up will it lead to snacking. i don't want to offer him a top up if he doesn't need one as I'm afraid it will lead to snacking, yet I don't want to him to be crying in hunger. And I don't know if he needs a top up as I can't read him. I don't know when he is hungry or if he is tired.
I'm getting anxious again.
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I know it is easy for me to say try not to worry, and incredibly hard for you to not worry...but do try not to worry xx
The ladies on the breast feeding board are much better fixed to answer your feeding questions. I was unable to BF so my LO was FF from 4 wks old. He could not transition to 4hr E at 4 months and remained on 3hr E until solids were introduced at which time he took *more frequent* feeds as he had his milk then 1hr later solids and right after the solids he demanded a milk top up. I think the milk top up directly after solids only lasted a few weeks but even so it meant something like:
E 7 milk
E 8 breakfast solids
E 8.30 milk top up directly after solids
E 11 milk
E 12 lunch solids
E 12.30 milk top up directly after solids
(nb these times are just example as I am not 100% sure if his E was 3 or 4hrs when he was getting those milk top ups either way though look how often he ate!!!) It felt like I was feeding all day long, I think I probably had a post about it seeming like he ate way too often and was this snacking - turns out this is all totally normal :) And now I see heaps of feeding threads I know just how normal it all is.
I've also seen enough threads to know that many mums do a top up just before a nap because of where the E and S sit in the routine and it would end up being too long between E for their baby. I did not do a top up before nap but bare in mind at 5.5 months I was still doing 3hrly E which I had to fit as best I could around nap times.
The thing is, this is just what happens as baby gets bigger. The naps move, the eating moves, they may need a top up, it won't necessarily become snacking and it doesn't need to lead to a feed to sleep prop either. If you think baby is hungry feed him, if once he falls to sleep on the breast after barely a sip this is not a prop, if twice he does this it is not a prop but perhaps a signal that he is not hungry then so you don't need to continue it. I do not think at this age your baby will start snacking, the advice about this is more to do with younger babies who are given a feed at every cry rather than stopping to consider if baby would be hungry, tired or want a cuddle.
WRT your question about the E times above - it is only an example, a guide. You do not need to make baby wait if he is hungry. As a guide I would feed every 4hrs so if he wakes at 40 mins it is unlikely 4hrs have passed since his last feed, maybe wait a little while, if he wakes at 3hrs it will be more like 5hrs between E I would feed right away. In your example then if he wakes at 1hr nap and it has been 4hr or more since E then feed him.
The routine does not need to look strictly like EASEAS, EASAEAS is fine, the point is to have a little bit of A between E and S for most sleeps.
I'm afraid that babies are ever-changing, ever-growing beings which don't come with a manual. Every one is different and every one has their own character, their own ideas about eating and sleeping and their own ideas about how much/long/loud they cry. Routines help immensely, so you know roughly where you are in the day, but don't be ruled by a routine, or ruled by times, remember the routine is there to help you, not to give you more anxiety.
Your baby knows you love him, he knows you are attending to him the best you can, if his food comes a little late or a little early he is not going to suffer dramatically. If his nap comes a bit late or a bit early he is not going to suffer dramatically. You are a caring and attentive parent, please allow yourself to believe this.
:-*
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How are things now?
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My fears prevented me from trying to get him strictly on a set routine, but I try to get him as close to the set routine. I stick to a 3hr A schedule and sometimes stretch his A times to 3hrs 15 mins to get to as close to his set nap times. Thankfully he has adjusted pretty nicely and has naturally somehow fallen into the schedule.
I upped his feeds to 5 day feeds after much consideration. He still wakes up for a NF though, despite the additional day feed. but I gladly feed him.
WU:730am
E: 8am
Top up: 10am
S: 1030am (1.5-2hrs)
E: 130pm
S:3/330 ( 1.5-2hrs) he has to be up latest 5pm else he won't go to bed at 730pm.
E: 430/5pm
E and S: 730pm
NF: 1
Thanks ladies!:)
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How will I know when to increase lo's A time? For how long should lo's current schedule last?
How do I fit in his 2 naps in when lo's A times increases to 3.5 hrs? Will one of his naps naturally shorten?
already with an 3hr A time, lo's naps end just in time for him to go to bed at 730pm till 730am.
He's 5.5mths.
Naps: 3-3.45hrs
Night:12 hrs with Nf
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That all looks great :)
How I would have loved such a marvellous routine when mine was 5.5 months!!!
Honestly, just keep going now. Try to relax, all is good :)
Totally normal to have that night feed.
This routine could last a good while, it's impossible to know exactly when a change would be needed, if you keep capping the last nap at 5pm to maintain BT at 7.30pm that's fine.
Wonderful news :)
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Thks creations! I feel more confident when I put him down to nap now. Still anxious but I'm getting a bit more confident when I handle him.
He slept 1030am-12noon, payed happily on his own in the interim and only started making noise at 1230.
Do I count his nap as 1.5hrs or 2 hrs?
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I'd count it as a 1.5hr nap but you can still continue with set times which is the point of them, you don't have to worry about how long the nap was (or wasn't).
Good to hear you are feeling more confident putting him down for nap.
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I can't make myself put him on set naps. I just feel too anxious to put him down after 2.5A time if he sleeps too long for his first nap. So ive been doing 3hr A times.
I think my anxiety is preventing me from putting him down at set times. Cow I'm scared of him crying at nap time fr being UT or too OT.
So far sticking to the 3A times, he has gone to nap without crying.
Thanks for your invaluable help ladies!
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I just realized that I may have gotten my A times wrong. Lo stays awake for 3hrs, and I put him down at the 3hr mark. It takes him anywhere from 5-15 mins to go to nap. So does this mean that his A time is actually more than 3hrs?
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So does this mean that his A time is actually more than 3hrs?
Does it matter? If you are able to put him down and he's happy to go to sleep then you've got it cracked!
Keep doing what you are doing.
...and try to remember that baby crying is his communication, it may not always mean he is UT or OT but perhaps he just has something to tell you before he goes to sleep.
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Thanks creations! i am trying to remember that crying is a baby's form of communication and it doesn't just mean that he is distressed.
Tried the schedule nap times with him for the past few days and he took it very well. :)
So glad for all your help!
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I'm so happy to hear things are going well for the time being :)
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Was wondering if baby's schedule needs tweaking again or keep it as such?
Lo has just turned 6 months. Bedtime is fixed 730pm. Naps are fixed around 1030am, 330pm. 5 fixed day feeds. 1 NF ( 4-5am dependingg on him). I pick up him at 730am.
He has been taking to this very well.
He used to wake up at 730am, but for the past 3 days, he has been waking up at 7am, but happily playing quietly in his cot until I get him at 730am. ( i monitor the video camera fr 645am)
Despite the earlier wake up, I feed him at the same fixed time and put him to nap at the same fixed times. He isn't very hungry at his first feed at 8am (snacks) and goes down very well for his naps and bedtime.
Should I change things or keep it as such? Below is his daily routine now. Everything is the same( feed, nap, bedtimes, morning pick up time) except he is waking up 30mins earlier and his nap length changing (first nap is getting half an hour longer, and second nap getting half an hour shorter).
A times: 3.5 hrs/2.45 hrs/3hrs
wu: 7am ( i pick him up 730am)
feed: 8am
feed: 10am
nap: 1030-1245 or 1pm
feed: 130pm
nap: 330-430pm
feed: 445pm
feed and sleep: 730pm
1 NF: 4-5am
Thanks!
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It sounds like he is happy and well rested so I would just leave the routine as it is for now.
It would be fine if you wanted to wake him from the first nap (at say 2hrs) to encourage the second nap to be longer but honestly if mine was doing the routine you have now I would just leave it.
If WU becomes regularly earlier than 7am I would think about a tweak, just moving that first nap a little later. In that event the second nap may be able to stay where it is and may stay the same length or become a little shorter again.
Whilst he's happy though just hang in there and enjoy the relative predictability you have with that routine :)
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Thanks creations, I'll stick to his current routine while it lasts. =)
Just in case, he starts waking up earlier and earlier
If WU becomes regularly earlier than 7am I would think about a tweak, just moving that first nap a little later.
As in, moving the first nap a little later? That would mean later than the current 1030am? Which would take the first A time to be more than 3.5 hrs?
Which would make his second A time less than 2.5 hrs? ( as his nap time is fixed at 330pm. will he take his second nap with such a short A time?)
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Try not to worry about it until it happens. There are so so many 'what ifs' you could drive yourself mad trying to plan for every different eventuality.
But, yes, it would be a later nap because we often see LO waking earlier when their first A time is too short. He may continue to take the second nap on the shorter A time with either the same length or a shorter nap. This means, in theory the A time from nap to BT is either the same length or a little longer and so maintains BT without having to move it later. If he was to start refusing the second nap we could tweak that nap time accordingly.
Further down the line most people look for 1 long nap and 1 short nap anyway, as LO gets older and doesn't need so much day time sleep. These are all things we can deal with when they arise.
Don't panic. Either I or someone else will always be here to help with tweaking of nap times.
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Thanks creations! I will try not to catastrophize.
Is it possible to move his wake up back to 730am? Even though he plays happily when he wakes up earlier and doesn't call for me until I pick him up, a 730 am wake up allows his dad to spend more time with him.
Should I change his set nap times? ( currently fixed 1030am, 330pm. 3 Hr A time based on a fixed 730am wake up)
Should I cap his naps? When should he wake up from his last nap? ( I used to cap his last nap at 5pm but am thinking of capping it at 430pm as it seems his A times are increasing)
Today he woke up at 7am ( possibly earlier but I only checked the video monitor at 7am) ( happily played quietly)
Went down for his naps happily, woke up happily
NF:4am
WU: 7am ( pick up: 730am)
E: 8am
E:10am
S: 1030am-1pm ( I woke him up at 1pm)
E: 110pm
S:330pm-415pm
S:730pm ( sleepy)
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At this point I would recommend leaving the routine just as it is.
He's sleeping well, he's happy. Plus you are just starting some medication for yourself. I really think right now is not the time to be shifting things unless his sleep goes right off track.
His naps a bit unbalanced with 1 being so long and 2 being short but I'd actually only change that if he is unhappy with it, which he is not. This could be the perfect routine for him, or close enough.
Sorry, when is it that Daddy can get to spend more time with him? Is it in the evening? So you'd like a later morning WU so that BT comes later and Daddy can see him more? If this is the case I would be more inclined to not cap the second nap earlier but instead just allow BT to move a bit later naturally. I say 'naturally' because it looks like he is tired at 7.30 just now but if he begins to stay a bit more alert for an other 15-30 mins you could put him down 15-30 mins later without worrying about moving the whole routine. (although looks like the second nap doesn't need capping as he's taking a short nap there anyway)
It really is up to you if you are determined to move the routine. I just wouldn't do it now. Some LOs are relatively easy to move, they seem to take the same length night and nap if you move the times gently, others though (like mine) have extremely strong internal body clocks. When I tried to move his routine on to get a later BT and later WU (I was living with 5am WUs) he just continued to wake at his body clock time so all that happened was he lost night sleep if I put him to bed later. Leading to OT which I know you wouldn't want.
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U are right Creations, I should stick to his routine. He's happy with it and isnt a major change. =)
I was hoping to stick to 730pm BT and 730 WU.
Daddy usually only spends time with him on weekends. He works late and in the mornings just a quick peck/cuddle before he's off to work. I try to let OH catch up on his sleep during the weekends so if lo wakes up later too, dad can take him out longer before his first nap. But 30 mins isnt much of an issue ( I guess its my anxiety and my mind catastrophizing), and soon LO's A times will increase too.
He woke up later this morning. ( 715 am),but is sleeping funny today. ( 1030-1130am ( crying), 230- 340(happily playing quietly in his cot now..hopefully he will go back to zzz ) But the weather is hot and there is construction. So I shall not panic and just take it as a one off aberration. Hopefully he will be back on track tomorrow!
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So I shall not panic
:) A healthy attitude :)
We all have off days, adults and babies too.
x
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I think lo's schedule needs tweaking again.
He's a week shy of 7months.
I have been putting him on 2 set naps a day ( not strictly set naps, but about there), with an average A time of 3hrs.
He probably naps less than what I think he does as I dont really monitor what time he goes down to nap and wakes up ( as he happily plays around in the cot for a while by himself before napping and after waking up). But I pick him up at fixed times and he is usually awake by then and happy. He never cried.
The past few days it has been taking him longer to fall asleep during naps.
Yesterday he resisted his afternoon nap. He started crying after 15 minutes.
This morning he resisted his morning nap. I watched the video monitor and played happily on his own for 15 minutes, then cried for another 15 minutes before sleeping.
I don't know what time he wakes up in the morning as he is a happy morning bird. I pick him up at 730am, but there are times when I think he probably is awake anytime from 645am.
How should I proceed from her? Seems like his A times is increasing. I would like to keep his bedtime and wake up time. But how do I fit in 2 naps a day?
Usually:
WU:730am ( he does wake up earlier at times)
N: 1030am- 1230pm ( I'm guessing)
N: 330pm -430pm (I wake him up at 430pm if he's not awake, but usually he wakes up at 430pm.
S: 730pm
one night feed
two days ago:
WU: 750am (I was awake before him)
N: 1030am ( putdown)-1230pm (pick up)
N:330pm ( putdown)-430pm ( woke up on his own)
S:730am
1 night feed
yesterday:
WU: 750am
N:11am ( putdown)-1230pm (pick up. he was awake by then)
N: 330pm ( he started crying at 350pm so I picked him up. I don't know if he slept at all or not)
S: 720pm ( he was very very tired)
1 night feed
Today:
WU: 8am
N: 11am ( putdown, but he started crying at 1115am and only went to sleep at 1140am) -1250pm
Now I don't know what time to put him down for his next nap.
Help please. =)
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Put baby down at 330pm. He was happy. started crying 5 minutes later.
Left him crying. It was a loud and angry cry, interspersed by moments of silent. He finally slept at 348pm. =(
Woke up 425pm happy. =)
Bedtime 730pm.
So today:
WU: 8am
N: 1140-1250pm ( I put him down at 11am happy. started crying at 1115am and finally went to bed at 1140am. woke up happy)
N: 348-425pm ( I put him down 330pm happy. started crying at 335pm. escalated to loud angry cries with intermittent pauses. finally slept at 348pm. woke up happy)
S: 730pm ( went to bed happy)
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Hi there.
I don't have time to look through your EASY times in depth right now, I'd need to have a proper look and a think before replying properly, but I wanted to stop by with a hug and a bit of quick advice for the time being xx
If he is crying go to him. Use your regular soothing method, shush/pat or adapted, or a hand on him and your key phrase, so that he knows you are with him. I would go to him as soon as the escalating begins.
If necessary pick him up to sooth him and put him back down when he is calm.
If he will not calm take him out of the room and try WD and nap again 15 mins later.
If you feel an increase of A time is needed then increase by 15 mins right away for today/tomorrow and we can sort out a steady routine from there. OK?
Remember babies do cry, it's unrealistic to have an expectation of no crying, but equally when he cries he is ready for your support and company. Be with him through his struggles but try not to be drawn into joining him in his frustration or sadness. It is possible to be there with him but be emotionally distanced at the same time although it takes a bit of practise.
I'll try to come back this evening to have a proper look x
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Dear Creations
I don't have a soothing method. Since 4 odd months, lo has gone down for his naps with nary a whimper. I am so surprised and alarmed that he is crying at naptimes now.
He has just started to go on his knees and rocking. Is this a development milestone? Would it be a factor in why he is suddenly crying and resisting naps?
I'm confused as when to go pick him up/soothe him. I read that some babies need to cry before sleeping. ( is that called a mantra cry?) When is a cry a going to sleep cry? If I were to pick him up if it was a going to sleep cry, wouldn't I be disturbing his self-settling skills?
But my lo has never needed to cry before sleeping so his cries now should be due to a different reason right?
Will try to put him down 15 minutes for his naptimes tomorrow.
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I don't have a soothing method
Then it's time to get one :)
I know you have an angel baby who tends to coo and smile before sleep and coo again when he wakes, playing in his cot too until you get to him. The thing is through his baby months, his toddler years and his entire childhood (and let's face it, his adult hood too) you will be called upon to sooth and support him, that's what we do, when there is teething, a bumped head, a cold virus, when some other toddler pushes him over or takes his toy you are the one who will ease his upset. You are already a great source of comfort and love to him, you are his world, but perhaps you still feel unsure how to help him when he calls.
So let's find something you are comfortable with.
Think about times now when he gets upset, what do you do? Pick him up, speak to him, rub his back, hold his hand? These can all be the basis of your soothing method so if something comes to mind let me know and we can incorporate that in to your sleep soothing method. OK?
A simple and effective idea is that you produce a mantra of your own, a key phrase, something that is repeated over and over in a pleasant and reassuring voice, eg "Everything is ok. I'm here. Go to sleep." When you repeat this he hears you, and he can focus on this to help him calm and feel drowsy.
Along with this you might put a firm hand on him so he can feel you. You might pat, rub or slightly rock with this hand so he can feel you.
What do you think?
WRT the mantra cry. Some babies do mantra before sleep, it is a repetitive sound which does not escalate. Some babies have a sad sounding mantra, I remember my LOs mantra changing when our routine went a bit off track, he sounded sad rather than meditative, it never escalated and remained repetitive.
From what you describe, if your LO has not been using a mantra cry, and his cry was escalating it sounds like an 'I need you' cry, to which you respond immediately. Go in, use your key phrase straight away if you don't know what else to say/do. I generally started responding before I even got to DS's room "I'm coming" and "I'm here, Mummy's here" when I got there. LOs are listening out for you all the time.
If he settles down as soon as you are there you can leave again. Mine did not like me to stay in the room when he went to sleep so I would say "I'll go now so you can sleep properly, call if you need me" and leave the room. If her started to cry out for me again I went back. This is a form of WI/WO there is no time limit to how long you stay with LO and it does not mean you cannot combine with other methods of soothing, it just means when he is calm or drowsy you leave so he can nod off.
Going onto his knees is certainly a milestone, developmental leaps often disturb sleep, it's just something you have to go through I'm afraid. The developmental aspect may well be contributing to his crying before naps but lets also look again at his routine.
OK, looks like he is waking later in the morning a few days. This is resulting in his A time being shorter when you put down at the set nap time you can either set his morning WU time at 7.30 to regulate the day or move his set nap time later. With a regulated WU you may find the set naps settle back down or you may find he needs a small shift in the routine as well (impossible to know without trying).
How do you feel about regulating WU time, I get the impression you are more comfortable with the days being predictable and this is one way to make it so. Regulating at 7.30 means either you go in and wake him or if you like you could try setting a lamp on a timer switch to come on at 7.30 so he wakes with the light.
He may still need that extra 15 mins on the A time but honestly it is hard to tell because his morning WU has moved later.
It seems he is still going to sleep well at 7.30pm is that right?
Let me know your thoughts. Meanwhile if he wakes late again before you have a chance to wake him or if you are undecided about regulating WU then go ahead and add that 15 mins onto his A time on both naps to get you through the interim days.
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Dear creations
Thanks for the really helpful advice and tips.
I think that I will try using a repetitive sentence: mummy's here. It's okay. Go to sleep. Mummy loves you. And stroke his head or pat his bum. And call to him as I am going up into his room.
As you mentioned, it's hard to be there for him while staying emotionally distant. I usually get so worked up and anxious along with him. practise Practise.
I'm okay with him waking up at 8am. ( not any later though.) But am thinking it may be better to keep to a fixed 730am WU. naps are somewhat set but I adjust slightly if he wakes up later. I was keeping to 3hr A times.
Am still confused as to where to put his naps and how long he should be napping for. He seems to be able to take even longer A times.
Yesterday was better but still I don't think I've gotten his A times right. I added 15 minutes to reach a 3hr 15 mins A time. He cried still for about naps for about 10mins but it was a repetitive constant cry with long pauses ini between and it did not escalate. I didn't go in to soothe him. I woke him up at 445pm after his second nap.
Yesterday
Wu:8am
N :1125-1230pm ( I put him down at 1115am.) ( quiet for 5 mins then cried)
N: 4-445pm (put down 345pm. Quiet for 5 mins then cried intermittentlyfor 10mins. I woke him up 445pm)
S:730pm (slept 740pm happy)
Total day nap: 1hr 50mins
Today, I tried to look for his tired cues.
nap 1: At 3hrs 50 mins A time, he was still happy but I thought that I better put him to nap. He rolled happily for 2 mins then slept.
nap2: 3 hrs A time ( he didnt seem tired at all, but if I didnt put him down by then, he would not last till his 730pm bedtime)
Wu:725am
N:1118 am-1pm ( put him down 1115am. Woke him up at 1pm so that he can take Another nap)
N: 4:05pm-445pm ( put down at 4pm. woke him up at 445pm)
Isn't he too young for a 3hr 50 min A time? How do I fit in two naps yet keep to a 730pm bedtime? Do I cap both naps? Where to put in the 2 naps? I normally just cap the second nap, but if I did not wake him up at 1pm during his first nap, I would not be able to fit 2 naps in for the day.
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Without looking back I seem to remember your LO handles 3hrs very well at a younger age than guidance so at 7 months now I think we can be looking at around 3hr 45. A times do not need to be the same length throughout the day, we are going to look for a routine with one good restorative nap (1.5-2hr) and one CN.
OK here's a possible routine for set naps with a 3hr 45 A time, it's very similar to what you did by yourself :)
WU 7.30
E
A 3hr 45
S 11.15 - 12.45 (1.5hr sleep)
E
A 3hr
S 3.45 - 4.30 (45 min CN)
E
A 3hr
E
BT 7.30
Now this does mean capping both naps and waking LO at 7.30. I'd prefer to give LO a chance somewhere to regulate his own sleep (ie one place where he is not woken) but this could mean moving BT later which I know you don't really want. Lets see on this routine if he can manage to go to sleep and wake relatively happily. If not we can look again.
For instance we could look at leaving the first nap at 2hrs if this is what he really needs for his first nap, and cap the second nap back further, or move BT a little later for a time (not for ever, when that second nap is dropped he will go to bed early).
I suspect with your LO he is going to drop to one nap quite early.
What do you think?
If you like this routine see how it goes and let me know.
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Dear Creations,
thanks for the suggested plan!=)
Lo looks so contented when he's in slumberland. I think I should try to be flexible and let BT be pushed back if its best for lo's sleep regulation.
Could you help advise on a routine in which I wont cap his first nap? A later BT is okay with me.
I will keep to a 730am WU.
Today went like this:
WU:725am
N:1118-1pm ( woke him up)
N:405pm-445pm ( I woke him up)
BT: 735pm ( put down 730pm)
He was a happy lark today, but I didn't enjoy waking him up for both naps. ( though he still was happy despite being woken up)
Is he reaching 2-1 nap transition soon? Gosh, my lo is growing up fast!
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The 2-1 transition usually doesn’t happen for some time yet. Even the early signs of it (which is not the nap drop itself but just the need for a shift in routine) doesn't usually happen until more like 10 months and many keep the 2 naps for moths beyond this. Mine moved to 1 nap at 11.5/12 months which is considered early. That said, we do need to accept LOs individuality and there are (very few) who go to 1 nap particularly early. We'll see :)
OK if you're happy to shift BT then I'd prob let him take a 2hr first nap as I think he will wake more naturally at 2hrs.
WU 7.30
A 3hr 45
S 11.15 - 1.15 (hopefully this will be uncapped)
A 3hr
S 4.15 - 5.00 (capped)
A 3hr
BT 8pm
I also want to mention he may, possibly, be happy with a shorter last A time of 2.5hr and bed at 7.30. It's just a possibility. One of the reasons I say this is because he was starting to wake later in the morning indicating he can do, and perhaps likes a longer night.
He may also be happy to do just a 30 min CN rather than 45 mins.
What do you think about either of these? Do you get a feeling he would like/accept one or the other or do you feel unsure?
It's fine not to know by the way it's just that if you have a feeling on either we can use that information to help tweak the routine if needed.
I'm so glad he was happy today. So stay with this routine a while see if he continues to be ok on it or if he begins to cry/resist or seem too tired during A etc. let me know how it goes xx
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Thanks for the schedule creations!
Your lo moved early to 1 nap!
Recently, lo does seem to be doing longer nights. I had to wake him up at 730am today.
He may be happy with a 30 mins cat nap though I havent tried it on him yet. I don't mind giving it a shot.
Will try your suggested schedule today. I'm a bit apprehensive about putting him down at 8pm ( simply for the reason that I'm such a stickler for routine, but I shall try to be flexible =))
I need some advice too on where to fit in his milk feeds now that his naps are changing, and with the introduction of solids. Will post on the breastfeeding forum.
Have a lovely day with your family!
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Not sure what to make of lo's reaction to the naps today. He went down pretty easy for nap 1, but resisted nap 2 ( 10 minutes of intermittent whining, started very soon after I put him down. Normally he plays happily in the cot for about 5 mins before protesting or crying)
WU: 730am ( I woke him up)
Nap 1: 1120- 110pm ( put down 1115am. he woke up naturally)
nap 2: 420pm ( put down 410pm, followed by 10 mins intermittent whining)
he's zzzz now.
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OK, I don't want to keep changing things for you as I know it's very unsettling but I wonder if the following routine might be worth a shot.
it's not what I'd think of as a regular routine really with the last A time being very short but I'm aware how short my LO liked the last A time and I'm just thinking that your DS has been extending his night so perhaps he is particularly tired by the end of the day and just likes to get to bed?
In this sample the second A increases to see if he can go down happily, nice and tired instead of reluctant for that second nap but the nap is capped at 30 mins which is pretty short but then he only has to stay awake a short A before getting to bed for the night, which is also at 7.30 which seems to suit you both.
WU 7.30
A 3hr 45
S 11.15 - 1.15 (uncapped 2hrs)
A 3hr 30
S 4.45 - 5.15 (capped)
A 2hr 15
BT 7.30
I'm a bit apprehensive about putting him down at 8pm ( simply for the reason that I'm such a stickler for routine, but I shall try to be flexible
So it could be that we can try to continue at 7.30 for a while if you cap that CN shorter, ok? I am also aware he likes his night sleep as he was extending it, and really it would be nice for him if we don't cut into that night sleep, it's just that we do need to squeeze 2 naps in. I will say though, at some point it is likely you will need to accept a different BT for a little while, maybe earlier rather than later. Changing BT was always a bit of a struggle for me too, I found it daunting to have LO up an extra 30 mins or to try to fit in everything before bed if it was 30 mins earlier, either way I didn't like the idea...but you do get into the new routine though and then it starts to feel normal again.
Not sure what time it is where you are now, but if it's not too late for BT try the 7.30 as usual and see how it goes.
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Dear Creations
I capped his last nap.
I did somewhat of a compromise for bedtime. 745pm instead of 8pm. With a last A time of 2 hrs 45 mins. He went to bed pretty happy.
So the day went like this:
WU:730 ( I woke him up)
A 3hrs 50 mins
Nap: 1120-110 pm ( uncapped) ( put down 1115am)
A 3hrs 10mins
Nap: 420 -5pm (put down 410pm. whined for 10mins. woke him up 5pm but he was happy)
A 2hrs 45 mins
bedtime: 745pm ( put down 740pm)
Thanks for the new routine.
Will try the new routine tomorrow, and cap his second nap at 30mins.
I'm a bit worried of putting him down at 730pm after a 2 hrs 15 mins A time.(so worried that he will resist bedtime as I wouldnt know how to deal with it.)
I feel less worried with a 745pm bedtime though. It's a slight flexibility that I can deal with somewhat.
Babies schedules are always changing. I have to learn to adapt to change. I will definitely need this skill as lo grows old of babyhood ( and to live life!) Am trying. =)
Really appreciate your help creations!
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I'm a bit worried of putting him down at 730pm after a 2 hrs 15 mins A time.(so worried that he will resist bedtime as I wouldnt know how to deal with it.)
OK so I would try the 7.30pm, it's just a hunch I have that he may go for it because he's been trying to extend his night so he may be willing to go to sleep. If he cries and shows he isn't ready you can get him up, spend 15 mins with him (sing a song, read him a book, walk around the house looking at things together, look out of the window and talk about what you see) and then go back into his room to do your usual put down for bed again. This isn't about forcing him to sleep at 7.30 it's about inviting him, if he says "no thanks" then do the additional 15 mins A time and try again.
So the 2 options for BT:
- try 7.30pm if he sleeps, fine, if he resists do another 15 min A out of the room then go back in for put down at 7.45
or
- go directly for 7.45 as you feel comfortable with this
It is up to you, see what feels right and if it works continue with it :)
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Dear creations,
Your hunch was on the ball. he went to bed happily at 730pm. It does seem like he is liking longer nights. I had to wake him up at 730am this morning.
He went to bed without crying for both naps, but it took quite a while to zz for nap 2. Nap 2 was only 20 mins long but he was happy when I woke him up. ( though it took him a while to wake up)
Today:
WU: 730am ( I woke him up)
Nap 1: 1115am-115pm ( uncapped)
Nap2: 455-515pm (capped)( I put him down at 440pm. He rolled, played by himself, and finally slept 15 mins later.)
Bedtime:730pm
Thanks for putting it so correctly: I'm inviting him to sleep, not forcing him.
And thanks for Tips on what to do when he doesn't want to sleep. I will feel less 'helpless' during the times when he resists bedtime.
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:) Glad it worked out ok for you both.
So that second nap showing a little resistance, I suspect he's a bit under tired.
Based on what's happened the last few days I'm going to give another suggestion:
WU 7.30
A 3hr 45
S 11.15 - 1.15 (uncapped 2hrs)
A 3hr 45
S 5.00 - 5.15/5.30 (capped)
A 2hr - 2hr 15
BT 7.30
You'll see I'm suggesting a longer A before nap 2, to help him drop off, but also capping at 15-30 mins. It may be difficult to wake him. Then he has the short A before BT.
I know the routine isn't totally stable for you at the moment with these few tweaks we've been making - try to bare with it, remember if there is refusal you can take him out of the room and try again 15 min later. I do suspect he is going to move to one nap very early (earlier than mine) and that this is a transition stage between.
Just looking ahead - how would you feel about LO going to bed earlier in the evening? I can see a possible routine to drop that CN but it involves a 6pm BT.
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Dear creations,
We went out today, for the first time. After his first nap.lo was so excited and was waving his arms and legs estastatically at everything.
He ended up having his second nap in the baby carrier. I covered his head at 430pm and he slept for 30 mins ( uncapped). Went to bed happily at 730pm.
Wu:720am? ( when I checked on him)
Nap:1115am-105pm? ( when I checked on him)
Nap: 430-5pm ( carrier. Uncapped)
Bedtime: 730pm
Thanks for the new routine. Will see how he behaves tomorrow and try the 5pm/445pm nap. Will cap at 15-30mins.
Yes, the change in routine is making me pretty jittery. I'm trying to take it in stride. Was really anxious while we were out today, but we made it, and his dad was really happy to be able to take him out.
Im not sure how to feel about an earlier bedtime, or even a later bedtime. I will try to be flexible and do whatever is best for lo. Will an earlier bedtime result in early morning wake ups? At the same time, I did read that late bedtimes may create early morning wake ups. Will follow closely to what you suggest though. :)
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First off (((hugs)))...these low sleep needs babies can sure throw us for loop I know - my DD3 is very low sleep needs! So glad you got out and about, I remember those days with DD1.
We got to a point similar to you where the catnap was just too hard to accomplish (would take ages of apop to even get 15 min of sleep). We did not do ebt here, but only because we have two older lo's and it just wasn't possible, plus DD3 has always always had a set bedtime and even know we rarely change it as she seems to know! If he already is able to tack on to night sleep then ebt can be a wonderful thing and will not always lead to an ew, quite the oppposite as usually sleep begets sleep.
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Wonderful that you got out and wonderful he took a nap too! You really have an angel baby!
Don't feel you must stay home to try out the routine. If you have the chance to go out then do so, getting out is great for all of you.
Im not sure how to feel about an earlier bedtime, or even a later bedtime. I will try to be flexible and do whatever is best for lo. Will an earlier bedtime result in early morning wake ups? At the same time, I did read that late bedtimes may create early morning wake ups.
I have a routine in mind to try, not yet, but I'm thinking a little ahead.
It would be something like 6pm BT and 8am WU.
Early wake ups can happen when LO is under or over tired. If they go to bed too late (too tired) it can disturb sleep at the beginning and end of the night. If they go to bed too early (under tired) and can't manage a long night they can refuse BT and also wake early. These are not things you need to worry about though honey. We are with you each step and I'm trying to listen to your LO (from a distance ;) ) about what he likes, what he dislikes, what he is ready for. if we try a routine and it doesn't work out we will be here to work out a different routine.
Keep with what you have for now. If you go out do what you did today, invite him to sleep at roughly the regular time.
If he misses the nap altogether I suggest getting him to bed as soon as possible, you don't need to panic to get home but just focus on the most important parts of the routine, skip bath if needed, do feeds and nappy changes, and the wind down. Try to get him to bed at 6pm or as close as you can. The following morning you should be able to continue with the routine again.
I'm just trying to prepare you so you have an idea what to do - just in case xx
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Thanks for the advice ladies.
Will keep to the said routine now.
I had to wake him up, and cap all naps today. But he's been happy and woke up very easily when I woke him up from his naps. Yes, he can be quite an angel baby ( at times)=).
Will see how tomorrow goes. I feel bad capping his naps and waking him up.
Thanks for the mental preparation creations.I really do need predictability and having some idea of what may possibly occur in the future and how to handle it gives me a sense of control.
today:
WU: 730am ( i woke him up)
Nap: 1115-115pm (capped)
Nap: 445-515pm (capped)
bedtime: 730pm
Gosh, what would I do without you gals! =)
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How's it going the last couple of days?
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Dear creations,
I have had to cap his wake up time and nap 2 for the past few days. He is happy when I wake him up though and is a happy baby throughout the day.( he is carried on demand though) He goes down for naps and bedtime happily too.
Is it ok to be capping his morning wake up and nap 2? Am I depriving him of sleep?
Also is it okay to cap his first nap at 2 hrs?( 1115-115pm. I have capped his nap 1 once though he generally wakes up within 2hrs)
was wondering if it's okay to let him sleep in until 8am, but won't do so if it messes up with his schedule.
Past few days:
Wu: 730am ( I wake him up but he is happy when I do so)
Nap: 1115-115( usually uncapped. Capped once)
Nap: 445-515( capped)
Bedtime: 730pm.
Thanks!!
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Some people need to cap everything at some point, which is ok so long as they really know LO has had enough sleep overall, it's due to needing to have enough A time in the day for LO to get to sleep, if they end up UT and don't take their nap at all then in the end they lose move sleep than they would by it being capped at a reasonable and respectful time. It's often during a transition period and nap dropping rather than long term.
Personally I prefer not to see a routine with all sleeps capped, when there is at least one natural WU you can feel reassured that if he need more sleep he would take it.
As you've only capped nap 1 once I really don't think there is an issue.
was wondering if it's okay to let him sleep in until 8am, but won't do so if it messes up with his schedule.
At this point I wouldn't. I'll try to explain why. When he started refusing his first nap he was UT, he needed a longer A time to go down for the nap peacefully. If you allow WU to move to 8am this shortens the A time before nap 1 and he is likely to refuse again. The only solution to that refusal is a later nap 1...but then he may refuse nap 2 so nap 2 has to move later... and he already has a short A time to bed which he is currently happy with but if it became shorter he may resist BT. So you see there is a knock on effect through the day of everything moving later if you do an 8am WU at this point, it could result in a later BT and then as he wants a full night sleep he starts needing a later WU, 8.30, and so the problem cycles.
I hope this makes sense. Do ask if you are not sure.
So, for now, and for as long as he is happy, I suggest continuing with this routine. It sounds like it's going well and he is well rested. Lets give you a plan for nap 1, just in case he is not awake when you go to him at the 2hr mark - how about we say if he is not awake then you give him 15 extra mins and plan a cap at 2hr 15, this could give him the few mins he needs extra to naturally wake.
If nap 1 is being capped daily or he resists going down for the naps or BT or there is any other change on a regular basis then we will reassess the routine at that point. By 'regular basis' I mean a few days or a week, it's fine for there to be the odd day where things are not totally spot on, if he is ill, teething, you go out to a party, or there is something else which disturbs the routine as a one off or short term thing.
When we reassess there is a chance we will look at reducing or dropping nap 2. It may happen soon, it may not happen for a long time. I'm letting you know so that you can prepare for the future changes. Don't panic about it though, we are here to help with finding a suitable routine whenever it is needed.
Try to take some reassurance from the fact that when he started to resist naps and was crying at nap time, it was really only a few days or so, and you got through it. If the routine goes off again like this you know you have already survived it before, it will be pretty much the same, some crying, you sooth him, we find a tweak that works and he goes back to being that lovely smiling boy again.
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Dear Creations
Thanks for the lovely advice and explanation!
Lo has been settling pretty well into the new routine.Not as perfect as I would like, but we have brought him out for 2 days straight so considering that; he has been doing very well. =)
I havent had to cap his nap 1 at all for the past 2 days, and today he woke up naturally by himself this morning at 720am. So I guess that means that he's been having enough sleep, as he's been a happy boy. =)
I will stick to a 730am wake up for him.
Routine so far:
WU:730am
Nap: 1115-115pm
Nap: 445-515pm ( capped)
Bedtime: 730pm
I need some advice re possibly going out with him during nap 2, would like to do so yet I am hesitant about it. Baby's milk time now. Will post back later!
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I would just take him out in the afternoon if you want. I think he had a successful catnap out and about when you went out another day and as you are only expecting 30mins sleep it isn't as much of a burden as trying to get a baby to sleep out and about for say 2hrs. Pushchair/stroller or sling are fine, don't worry about any props at all for this afternoon nap, props tend to attach to the set sleep time they are associated with so for instance if you rock in a pushchair for the CN this is unlikely to have any effect on his independent self settling for nap 1 or BT. Keep in mind any prop which develops for the CN will disappear when the nap is dropped and he moves to 1 nap - so it gets solved without having to do anything :)
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Thanks creations.
Any idea how regular the nap in the carrier would have to be for him in which in becomes a prop?
I have an option of looking after my niece ( which involves fetching her and taking her to lessons) which coincide with his 445-515pm catnap. It is up to me the number of times a week I do so.
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Yes of course it is up to you :) It's all up to you honey you're his Mummy :)
The thing with using the carrier for the CN is that if you do it less often it may be hard each time for him to fall to sleep, because it is not habit. If you do it more often it becomes habit and he's more likely nod off quickly and happily because that is what he expects.
If you make it habit you may well find that an 'at home' day he is less happy to go into his bed/cot for his CN and will expect/request the carrier (babies request through crying when they are put somewhere they don't want, to tell you "hey where's the carrier?") in which case you could just use the carrier at home too. The point is that you'd need to be prepared for this. You might not like using the carrier at home because you want to have some free time for yourself. This is one of the 'dilemmas' as a parent, our LOs like regularity and consistency, where as we might like less consistency so that we can use a carrier on the days we want but put him down on the days we want - often this is where the problems arise because of our own conflicts as a parent and not wanting or able to provide the predictable routine our baby wants.
There is no 'harm' in holding your baby for every nap, but it tends to cause problem for the parent because they decide they don't want to hold baby for every nap and so change the game on baby and that's when 'props' become a problem because parents get fed up with no time to re-charge for themselves.
In your particular case, you have an angel baby, it's his character and nature, he may well adapt easily to having some CNs in the carrier and some CNs in his cot, I wouldn't be surprised. (my DS for instance would have kicked up a huge fuss about such unpredictability)
It's totally your decision. If you end up using the carrier for the CN when out and then also when at home you could feel reassured by knowing this isn't going to go on for years and years. The CN may remain for several months yet so that's th possibility, but looking at how things have gone up to now I'm kind of thinking the CN is going to reduce to a shorter time (so less arduous for you to do that in the carrier, it is 30 mins now, it may reduce to 15 for instance) and likely to be gone well before 12 months. That is a very rough time scale to help you make a decision.
It sounds like taking your niece out to her classes would be a great opportunity for you to have somewhere to go, a focus in the day, and to meet people etc. Your DS may enjoy it too, seeing other people and places and having a look around at the world. For what its worth I went to as many mum and baby groups as I could, despite still being responsible for DS it actually felt like a bit of 'time off' to be at a play group or class even though I am quite introverted.
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I always looked at the catnap as being the flexible nap - so for all theee of my kids that nap we used apop. With DD1 she did that nap in a toboggan all winter, DD2 went for stroller walks with DH and DD3 I held or wore for that nap...none of them expected those props for any other sleep as it became the ha it for just that nap. (None of mine were angel babies either - we had a mix of spirited/textbook/touchy here).
Since your lo is already down to a short catnap it will be much easier to ap your way through - though I would also keep in mind that once he is more mobile his sleep needs might change a wee bit if he is quite active. Althoug in saying that DD3 (my lsn lo) never did need more sleep when she started walking & running!
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Thks ladies. I will be more adventurous and take him out more often during his last nap then, knowing that the props associated with that nap will not interfere with his other nap. I feel trapped at home due to my fear of him developing nap props but yes, I will endeavour to step beyond the confines of my home.
My angel baby has not been an angel for the past 2 days. Is that normal? Is developmental awareness a factor? I am very surprised by his behaviour.
His mood has been bad and his naps short. He is 7 months 1 week old and suddenly seems more aware of his surroundings. But there have been changes in his routine outside of his naps so I wonder if it has played a part.
-Yesterday was the first time I gave him a bottle of milk ( he is always latched on) and I wonder if it was hunger? (as he's always latched on I don't know how much he drinks each feed. I put in 150ml and he drank 100ml and refused the rest, so I assumed he was full. He is schedule 5 day feeds, 1 night feed). But he napped poorly for his nap prior to his bottle feed already.
- He has been going out for quite a bit as hubby is home, but we are always back home for his naps.
This morning he also woke up one hour earlier whining for a while before going back to sleep and then woke up whining again but played happily on his own till I got him.
day before yesterday:
WU 720am
feed: 2x (latch on)
nap1: 1120-115 ( put down 1115am. uncapped)
feed: 1x ( latch on)
nap 2: 455-520 (cried when I put him down at 440pm. I had to carry him till he fell asleep. We did go out and come back at 420pm though so wonder if he was overstimulated)
bedtime:730pm ( happy)
one night feed ( usual)
yesterday:
WU: 730am
feed: 2x ( latch on)
Nap 1: 1130-1220 ( put down 1115am .played quietly then slept. woke up crying)
feed: 1x ( bottle. drank 100ml)
Nap2: 410 -5pm (very sleepy at 4pm. cried. put him down cried. I had to carry him till he slept. woke up at 5pm crying. He did have his first ever bottle of milk for his prior feed so wonder if he was hungry)
bedtime: 730 pm
he slept a bit fitfully I felt, heard some groans and whines during the night, but he only truly woke up for usual one milk feed)
Today so far:
WU: 720am ( woke up whining but soon played happily by himself)
feed: 1x. ( cried alot at 1020am and refused his 1030am breast feed)
Nap 1: 1050-1145am (cried and cried. put down and cried. carried till he fell asleep. he didnt take his feed. woke up 1145 am crying)
feed: 1145am. ( out of the usual timing, but I was worried that he was hungry)
His normal schedule is:
WU: 730am
E: 8am
E: 1030am
N: 1115-115pm ( uncapped)
E: 130pm
N: 445-515pm ( capped)
bedtime: 730pm ( happy)
Maybe I shouldnt read too much into it and just take it that baby's have good and bad days? But my lil one has always been really quite an angel and follows the schedule very well.
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Those days do look unusual for your LO.
The thing is even an angel baby will be bothered by certain things. One thing that comes to mind is possible teething which might be disturbing his sleep and causing some random crying and grumpiness.
Going out more will give him a higher level of stimulation, it may make him more tired, which may effect your routine. I wouldn't totally avoid going out though, one of the things which may help him hang on to that second nap a bit longer will be extra tiredness from the stimulation of going out, the other is becoming more active as pp said.
For now continue with the routine as it is. If you need to, go back and review the things we've said about what to do if he cries, what to do if he refuses a nap, sometimes it's good to just refresh your thoughts so you have a plan.
This is likely a blip. Some blips are a day or two, some are longer.
If its teething it can be a day or two, and sometimes I'm afraid the day or two (or a few more) of this whining and altered sleep turns into something way way bigger. I don't want to scare you but I do want you to be prepared. - some LOs when the teeth cut there is 2 or 3 days of absolute hell, I have no other word for it, hell!! You will need all your strength and patience for those days and you will need to leave aside any house work and rest when you can because the nights may well be long and hard.
It may not at all be like this for you - or not these teeth but perhaps later teeth. But it can be bad. All we can do as parents is medicate if possible (ibuprofen, paracetamol, follow dose carefully) and be there to comfort them.
Lets see how things go for a few days x
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I was also wondering about teething given your lo's age. If that is the case yes I agree with creations it can be complete hell (my DD1 was a horrid teether and it really affected her sleep). I was so glad DD3 cut teeth 2, 4 or 6 at a time - some bad days but over with in one shot at least. Overstimulation can be a factor but I would not let that stop you from going out. I used to try (with my oldest two) to have a quieter day follwing a busy one if I was able...DD3 just got fit in to whatever we had to be doing with the older two.
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Dear ladies
Thks for the head ups about teething. He cut his first 2 teeth without any issues so I assumed that it would be the same for the rest. I guess I better be prepared for some 'hiccups' when more of his teeth come through. He has been drooling more the past few days so I will be on the lookout.
Lo napped shorter today but was happy upon waking up fr his naps so I won't let myself get too worked up over it.
Today:
Wu: 730 am
Nap: 1115-1240am (happy)
Nap: 420?-515? (I wasn't home. Mum took over for this nap. She said he was tired at 420 and put him down. I was so anxious the whole time I was out. She told me that he didn't cry. I'm relieved :))
bedtime: 740pm
Will continue with the routine as it is. :)
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Yes, even though some teeth were not a big issue some were horrible. DD3 got 2 of her 2nd year molars without me realizing it but her canines were bad.
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Okay,now I'm pretty confused. Lo is just 7 mths 1 week old and has always been low sleep needs, but this? Does he need an increase in A time?
It's usually 3 hrs 45 mins in the morning.
But this morning he refused his usual 1115am nap. He did seem very awake when I put him down at 1115am, and started protesting 5 minutes later. I picked him up and wasnt sleepy at all, finally knocking off at 1210pm happily. ( which gave a grand total of 5 hrs 10mins A time)
Do you think he needs a change in schedule? Or should I stick to his old routine for a few more days?
How do I fit in 2 naps a day with such a long A time? And he's soo young.
He has just started to crawl( or rather commando crawl) effeciently and is enjoying his new found freedom so I'm wondering if this is a reason for him resisting naps.
And has been in a good mood.
today:
WU: 7am ( usually 730am) happy
Nap: 1210- ( put him down 1115am but refused. took him out. played and finally got tired at noon)
He's still sleeping now, but I'm going to wake him up at 115pm so that I canhopefully fit in another nap later.
Usual times:
WU: 730am
Nap1: 1115-115pm
nap2 : 445-515pm
bed: 730pm
What should I do about his nap times now?
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Personally I would have just let him sleep and done ebt...not that he necessarily is ready for one nap but as a one off it wouldn't harm. The thing is when you get into the 2-1 the day can get quite long to fit in 2 naps and enough A time. Though tbh I do wonder was he os/ot from his new skill and might have gone down earlier or is he truly very low sleep needs (entirely possible, I have one of those models myself ;)).
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He woke up by himself from nap 1 at 115pm!Didn't cry just rolled happily in his cot. I was so surprised.
He was quite tired by nap 2 and went down as his usual time. Was cranky when I woke him up at 515pm but was soon back to his happy self.
So t0day:
Wu: 7am
Nap 1: 1210-115pm ( uncapped and happy)
Nap 2: 450-515( capped and cranky when I woke him up)
Bedtime: 740pm ( happy)
If I were not to cap his first nap (start nap time: 1210pm) what Time would early bedtime be? Lo has been on a approximately 730pm bedtime ever since he was 2 months old. I always put him to bed because it's 730pm, and Am really bad at ready his body signs unless he's really tired. I really am quite a stickler for routine times though I'm slowly learning how to read his body language.
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Taking into account your need for predictability I would continue with the routine as set for now.
If the refusals continue properly (every day and with no sign of teething or something else disturbing him) then I would suggest we move directly to 1 nap for which I will give you a suggested routine, just the way we have so far.
Hope this helps.
You did really well to cope with that extra long A time and to take him out and try again later - well done Mummy :)
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Thks ladies for the support and compliment. I'm getting more confident of handling him when he cries. I remind myself that it's nothing catastrophic, and to respond lovingly but appropriately.
He has been waking up at 7am( 2days straight) instead of his usual 730am and seems to be able to stay up longer. So I tweaked the routine a bit. He was okay with it. What do you think?
Today:
Wu: 7am ( on his own)
Nap: 1130-1pm (uncapped)
Nap2: 450-515pm ( uncapped. Cried when I woke him up)
Bedtime:740pm ( happy)
He does seem to be drooling quite a bit but there is no signs of teeth yet. Is he in the territory of moving to one nap? He is still so tiny, I have no idea how he can handle such long A times.
I'm pretty worried when the time comes for him to move to 1 nap. I read that it can be quite a challenge. Thank you for holding my hand!
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Moving to one nap for me was very very hard, I cannot say otherwise. But you know I am feeling really confident about your LO moving to one nap - honestly I think it's going to be smooth sailing. FX hey :)
You did well tweaking the routine :)
Drooling is a sure sign of teeth moving even if they don't cut yet.
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Some kids just are not made to fit the average sleep model...my DD3 that I keep referring to has always been low sleep needs, I just did not clue in until she was 4 months old when she went to 2 naps. We were on one nap by 7.5 months and dropped it entirely by 22 months. I would say it has been rather easy once I get my head around the differences between her sleep and my older kids (who are 7 & 9 and generally sleep 10.5 hours at night - only 1/2 hr to an hour less than their 2 yr old sister!). Moving to one nap was actually a relief as I did not have to try and ap the catnap lol.
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Just looking over what's happened over time I thought it might be useful for you to see a possible 1 nap routine.
This is based on a few things such as:
- he wanted to sleep longer at night and can do 12.5hr or more night sleep but is now reducing his night length
- he appears to be waking earlier and wanting a longer first A time, delaying/refusing first nap until later
- he can do a good long 2hr nap
- he seems to be reducing his first nap length to 1hr or 1.5hr rather than 2hr suggesting he could do with a bit longer A time
- he was comfortable at 14.5hrs total sleep in 24hr, but now he is reducing his sleep to more like 12.5-13.5 total in 24hr
This is how your day could look:
WU 8
A 5hr
S 1-3 (uncapped, it's ok to sleep longer, even 3hrs is fine)
A 4hr
BT 6.30/7.00 (if he took a 3hr nap BT could be 7.30pm)
night 13 - 13.5
overall sleep 15hr+
My thoughts at this point are that it may be worth moving to 1 nap relatively soon to retain the habit of a long night and a long nap 1. Although he is very young for moving to 1 nap, my slight concern is that if we wait too long he may continue to shorten his night and shorten his nap which then could make it a bit harder to get those back into place.
I would imagine an interim routine like this for the overall transition to take approx 10 days
days 1 & 2
WU 7
A 5hr
S 12 - 2
A 3hr
S 5 - 5.30
A 2hr
BT 7.30
days 3 & 4
WU 7/7.30 (not capped)
S 12.15 - 2.15
BT 6.30
day 5 & 6 (morning WU may be later by now)
WU 7/7.30/8
S 12.30 - 2.30
BT 6.30
days 7 & 8
WU 7.30/8
S 12.45 - 2.45
BT 6.45
day 10...
WU 7.30/8
S 1 - 3
BT 7
I know the best approach for you, and I think for your LO is a regular routine, you both seem to thrive of it. You may find LO can transition much quicker than this because he is so adaptable.
See what you think and maybe talk with DH about the transition period and the change in BT.
It could be possible to get back to a 7.30pm BT after he'd settled into one nap and when we can see how long a nap he'll take and how long a night he wants to do, after all every LO is individual so we are working with what we know but also with the unknown too :)
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Hi creations
Hi creations
This sounds really daunting! I must admit I am really scared to try this out. Read some scary posts about how we should try to hang on to 2 naps as long. Do you think he is ready? I will definitely give it a shot if you do so.
Some questions about the transition days that you posted above.
Day 1 &2 :
WU: 7am
does that mean that I must wake him up at 7am?
For the whole schedule:
Do I cap all naps/WU/bedtime to follow the schedule?
Where do I put his milk feeds in the new schedule?
It's normally 5 day feeds, 2solids( play), 1 night feed
Milk: 8am
Solids: 9am
Milk: 1030am
Milk: 130pm
Solids: 230pm
Milk: 530pm
Milk n sleep: 730pm
1 night feed
This is how he was for the past 3 days. Yesterday he slept 2.5hrs for nap 1! ( mum put him down, I was out. She didn't cap his nap as I was going to take him out in the afternoon so I knew he would get really tired) was it OT accumulation from the past few days?
Previous day:
wu: 7am
Nap1: 1130-1pm
Nap 2: 450-515pm ( capped)
Bedtime: 730pm
Yesterday: brought his out after nap 1.
Wu: 730am ( I woke him up)
Nap 1: 1115-140pm ( I am surprised! uncapped as we were going out later)
nap 2: 450-515pm ( slept in carrier. Capped)
Bedtime: 745pm ( I thought he may not be sleepy as nap 1 was so long. But he was pretty tired by then)
Today:
Wu: 730am ( I woke him up)
Nap 1: 1130-1230pm ( woke up crying. Looked tired still)
Nap: 415( sleepy)
Oh thanks creations!!:)
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Some kids just are not made to fit the average sleep model...my DD3 that I keep referring to has always been low sleep needs, I just did not clue in until she was 4 months old when she went to 2 naps. We were on one nap by 7.5 months and dropped it entirely by 22 months. I would say it has been rather easy once I get my head around the differences between her sleep and my older kids (who are 7 & 9 and generally sleep 10.5 hours at night - only 1/2 hr to an hour less than their 2 yr old sister!). Moving to one nap was actually a relief as I did not have to try and ap the catnap lol.
Wow! Yr little one was on 1 nap at 7.5 months? Tts early. It must have taken you by surprise. We're you concerned given tt she was only 7.5mths old?
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I know it seems daunting, especially when you have read so many things about how bad the 2-1 transition might be.
There's no pressure to do this right now. let's just look, think, get the idea in our minds so we are prepared in advance and not caught on the hop if nights and naps go very short or if naps are refused.
OK, here I have slotted in an example of when milk and solids can come. Continuing with 5 milk feeds per day plus 1 at night and 2 solids meals, I also show where a 3rd solids would slot in when he's ready for it. I've used your feed timings as a starting point but tweaked a little to spread the feeds across the day.
With milk just before and right after the nap he should be fine to last a good nap length without being hungry (ie even a 3hr nap is still only 3hr between milk feeds).
Do remember this is only a guidance routine to give you an idea. In reality we start somewhere then adapt as needed.
This is how your day could look:
WU 8
milk 8
solids 9
milk 11
solids 12 with a top up milk directly after which comes just before nap
A 5hr
S 1-3 (uncapped, it's ok to sleep longer, even 3hrs is fine)
milk 3 or when he wakes
solids 4/5 (you are not doing dinner yet but this is where it can go)
milk 6.30/7 for BT
A 4hr
BT 6.30/7.00 (if he took a 3hr nap BT could be 7.30pm)
night 13 - 13.5
overall sleep 15hr+
one night feed
Yesterday he slept 2.5hrs for nap 1! ( mum put him down, I was out. She didn't cap his nap as I was going to take him out in the afternoon so I knew he would get really tired) was it OT accumulation from the past few days?
It looks to me like he is self regulating his sleep length based on the set times you are currently giving him. So, for a few days he cuts his night short, wakes at 7 instead of 7.30/capped, he naps short, 1 hr or 1.5 instead of 2hr/capped. Then after a few days of this he has accumulated tiredness (this does not mean OT or that it is a big problem but rather self regulation) he sleeps later in the morning and a longer nap.
It's fine to continue with this just now if you are more comfortable with it, but be prepared that there is likely to be a continuation of this self regulation meaning daily changes (or phases every few days) to WU time, nap reluctance (that day or 2 he didn't go to sleep until after 12), short nap etc followed by later WU, longer nap.
Whilst I totally understand reluctance to change the routine moving to 1 nap might actually provide you all with more predictability than with him self regulating in phases. When we began this thread he moved to a set routine fabulously, it removed all/most of the unpredictability of various WU times, various A times, various naps lengths and allowed you both to know what was to happen when.
It's important to say: You are his Mummy. It is totally your decision (and your DH).
All we can do here is offer advice and support based on the information we have, and we cannot offer any guarantee that it works out, it's our 'best guess'.
My concern, my reason for looking at a 1 nap routine and for a way to transition to that routine is that, if I don't propose this in in a timely manner, LO could quite significantly reduce his night sleep and naps or refuse naps. We *could* be looking at 5 or 6am WUs and messy nap times (ie if LO wakes at 6am the temptation is to move nap 1 earlier because he'll be tired, the day goes off track), it becomes harder to move that nap time later and head towards the 1 nap day when night sleep has been reduced this amount because it's harder to get to a 12 or 1pm nap, when nap comes too early you have to fit in another nap to get through the day, by offering a second nap he can then continue to take a short night (or long night wakings). It can become a bit of a trap.
That sounds scary hey? I don't want to scare you, I only want to explain why I've brought up the idea of a 1 nap routine.
So, there are a few more things I want to cover, I know you like to understand what's going on.
1. If you continue the current routine and if he does go through phases/cycles of shorter nights and naps followed by longer nights and naps...we can wait until the longer night/nap day arrives and then rapidly transition to 1 nap. The 7-10 day transition period I detailed above could be reduced down to a couple of days because we start with the day where the WU is later. This would be preferable all round I would think.
2. If you continue the current routine an suddenly start getting lots of nap refusals, 10hr nights or long NWs we can tackle that head on when it happens and come up with a plan to get out of it.
3. This day I have quoted below is actually pretty close to being able to manage a 1 nap day already. You wake him (so he could have slept longer in the morning), he takes a long nap (he could do a 2.5-3hr nap on a 1 nap day, it's a really good refreshing sleep rather than a 1hr nap plus a 25 min CN)
Yesterday: brought his out after nap 1.
Wu: 730am ( I woke him up)
Nap 1: 1115-140pm ( I am surprised! uncapped as we were going out later)
nap 2: 450-515pm ( slept in carrier. Capped)
Bedtime: 745pm ( I thought he may not be sleepy as nap 1 was so long. But he was pretty tired by then)
Last thing
Some questions about the transition days that you posted above.
Day 1 &2 :
WU: 7am
does that mean that I must wake him up at 7am?
For the whole schedule:
Do I cap all naps/WU/bedtime to follow the schedule?
No, the transition period is purely a way to move his nap later whilst we wait for WU time to move later. What we would look for is moving to the 'end' routine as quickly as possible but without suddenly making him stay awake from 7am (if he woke then) to 1pm. He can and has done a 5hr morning A time without problem so could possibly go directly from 8am WU to 1pm nap, but, he is used to set nap times and I would be inclined to move his 'set' nap time by 15-30 mins at a time rather than 1-2 hrs (even though he has done this himself before).
I hope I have not overwhelmed you with information!
Have a think.
We are here regardless of what you decide to do.
As always we can hold your hand through the process and as always we might not be able to get on *every day* or *exactly* when you need us to answer a question immediately but we would do our best to support you throughout.
:-*
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Dear creations
Thank you for the really thorough explanation. It makes lots more sense now. I feel much more informed and prepared.
Haha, I'm his mummy but often I feel like lo is my boss instead of the other way round.
We are ready for the nap translation. Hubby would like to see more of him after work, but he understands that lo's sleep needs come first and that when lo is older a later bedtime may be possible.
He slept short and cranky naps today. It seems to be following the pattern that you were mentioning.
Today:
Wu: 730( I woke him up)
Nap: 1130-1230 ( uncapped. Cried)
Nap: 415-5( uncapped. Cried)
Bedtime: 730 pm ( tired)
So if I were to start nap transition, I should let him sleep pass 730am and sleep in till whatever time he wants to, and from there, start the process of a one nap a day routine?
And thank you for all the support and hand holding from way across the globe! :)
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Oh, one thing I don't quite understand, why is it that in so many baby sleep books, recommended wake up time and sleep time is 7am and 7pm? Isn't it the same if the schedule ie: 6am-6pm, 8am-8pm?
Likewise for my lo, whilst bedtime for his 1 nap schedule is at 7pm and wu at 8am, would it be the same if wu was 830am and bedtime 730pm?
Is it something to do with the natural circadian rhythm?
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I think in most cases a book just picks an average time just to give a jumping off point, but of course every child is uniques so you just take the parts you read and adapt them to suit your child and your life. As an example, I am not a morning person so for us a bit later bedtime with a later bedtime suits me better (which my older kids also were fine with, DD3 wakes a bit earlier but will play in her crib).
I think for me having a lsn baby as my third child is a whole different thing to having my first (or even second) be lsn. It was very strange at first but once I clued in around 4 months old I just ran with as it made life with older children easier without the naptime pressures on top of other commitments - school run, activities etc. Plus I am very much a jump in with two feet person, so while I probably could have kept her on two naps and just extended our day we were getting the ew's and some nw's and with an already late bedtime of 8pm I needed to keep the evening time so I could get stuff done around the house!
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why is it that in so many baby sleep books, recommended wake up time and sleep time is 7am and 7pm?
Oh how I envied all the babies who woke at 7am in those sleep books! Mine was up at 5am for most of his first 2 years. It was a killer for me.
Likewise for my lo, whilst bedtime for his 1 nap schedule is at 7pm and wu at 8am, would it be the same if wu was 830am and bedtime 730pm?
We can certainly go for that if you wanted. It would give Daddy more time to see LO in the evening. Now i can't promise it will go right to it, and can't promise your Lo will enjoy it, if he does great, if he doesn't then you find a respectful compromise, yk?
I would say to begin with lets go for the routine with the 8am WU 1pm nap and 7pm BT and then move it along from there.
Do you know when your clocks change? Sorry honey I don't know where you are, but here our clocks change at the end of the month, which either works for or against you depending on which way it moves and where you would like to see the routine.
So if I were to start nap transition, I should let him sleep pass 730am and sleep in till whatever time he wants to, and from there, start the process of a one nap a day routine?
Yes and move the nap later. You may need to 'wing it' for a few days which is why I posted all those days of transition times, it may not fit exactly but try not to panic. I don't think we will be here to answer a question immediately (eg if you ask "help he only napped 1hr what do I do?" it's unlikely we get on line before you need the answer), so you must take the reigns for each day. But we will always respond when we can.
FWIW he could have been crying today because he was UT for the nap. Mine used to do that, mostly here we say a happy wake up is an UT nap but mine was too UT to transition but too tired to do well on the short nap so would cry. A later nap and he would transition to the next sleepy cycle and wake later and happy.
Maybe copy and print the transition days, they do not have to be followed to the letter like I said before, you can probably jump on a few days right off if you get a later WU time, but if you have it printed and to hand it may help you with the prospect of change.
I would write down or print the routine you are headed toward too.
Good luck...whenever you're ready :)
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Oh dear. I don't know what happened. I had to go for a much later nap 1 as we went out and came back later than planned.L o was awake and very happy throughout. He did not seem tired at all. When I put him down for nap 1 at 1pm (he was a bit tired then), he slept happily but woke up at 2 pm crying angrily. He refuses to be put down now and crying. DH has to carry him to keep him happy.
I don't know what to do now. I think i will give him a cat nap later in the carrrier.
so far today:
WU: 730am
nap 1: 1pm - 2pm ( went down happy, woke up screaming)
Hopefully we will make it through the day happy.
The clocks don't change where I am. It's always summer. =)
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why is it that in so many baby sleep books, recommended wake up time and sleep time is 7am and 7pm?
Oh how I envied all the babies who woke at 7am in those sleep books! Mine was up at 5am for most of his first 2 years. It was a killer for me.
yikes! 5am. Was yr lo a spirited one? =)
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The clocks don't change where I am. It's always summer. =)
The clocks don't change here either...but it sure is not always summer here lol! Well that makes things easier at least routine wise.
Just thinking the first A time was maybe a bit too long and he woke ot or os or a combo of both those. But when you are out and about sometimes those things are just unavoidable. I might be tempted to try a catnap a bit earlier than normal as after the long morning and shorter nap he may be tired sooner.
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It was a bit late for his nap. I would also go for the CN today. Tomorrow is another day.
xx
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Thanks ladies! Am so lucky you 2 happen to be online now. Will try for a catnap later.
Thankfully he is happy now and happily gnawing on his toys.
Question about being too tired. i thought that it's only when lo is UT that they can't transit to the next sleep cycle. I also thought that OT would result in them refusing to nap and screaming.
LO went down for his nap happy. I thought that that meant he was sufficiently tired but not over tired, and he would be able to transit to the next sleep cycle and sleep longer. Why has it resulted in a short one hour nap instead?
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There are some 'general' OT/UT signals but a lot of it needs to be detected from looking at LOs usual routine and then what happened on a particular day. If he is used to going for a nap at 11.15 (and sometimes later due to refusal) then moving a nap to 1pm in one sudden leap is most likely too much. In addition he was out and about so more stimulated than usual. The two added together make sense for sleep disturbance.
An OT nap can result in an OT wake up at 20 mins, in this case my guess is he did a 40 min sleep cycle moved into his next cycle and then did the 20 min OT wake up. I know it's confusing because the other day he did a 1hr nap and woke crying when put down at his usual time, more likely UT at that point - this is why we compare the 'usual' routine with what happens on an 'off' day.
And to throw further confusion into the mix - there is always the chance of teeth moving too. In the first couple of years there can be a lot of disturbance from teeth, if only babies could give us one issue to resolve at a time it would make life so much easier, but they do insist on being living breathing growing human beings.
I would view today as "just one of those days" when things are off track rather than anything caused by the 2-1 transition, after all, at this point he doesn't know about the transition does he (unless you've been reading the thread to him ;) )
Do the CN, maybe a little earlier, do regular BT and start afresh tomorrow.
I would say if he wakes in the morning at 7.30/8.00 you could probably do nap at 11.45. Move his nap later in increments rather than 1 big jump.
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Do I cap his nap tomorrow if I put him down at 11:45 am? Or do I no longer cap morningWake ups and naps? if he naps at 1145am tomorrow, it's still a 2 nap day?
Ok, tomorrow is a new day. I will try not to get too worried.
Yikes, he's having a jab next week. It's going to mess with nap transition again. Shall view it as part and parcel of life and to try to just roll with it.
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Have a look at the transition plan for days 1 and 2. Nap at 11.45 or 12 and follow the rest as a guide.
Oh jabs are tricky too. Sometimes they cry lots and sometimes they are really sleepy after.
Stay strong xx
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We made it through the day. :)
Tried to put him down in the cot for a cat nap at 430pm but he flatly refused, so into the carrier and he napped fr 445-515pm ( capped) was a happy boy after that.
Printed out the transition days.
Tomorrow is a new day. I will try to roll with it.
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I would say if he wakes in the morning at 7.30/8.00 you could probably do nap at 11.45. Move his nap later in increments rather than 1 big jump.
Dear creations, I am a bit confused as to what time to put him to nap tomorrow if he wakes up 730/8am.
Was looking at the transition schedule:
Day 1,2:
If wu was 7am
Nap: 12am
Day 5,6
Wu: 7/730/8am
Nap: 1230pm
So if lo wakes up at 730/8am tomorrow, should I put him down at 1230pm for his nap or 1145/12noon? ( of course taking into acct his general disposition)
Thanks!
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I'd go with 12. The quote you quoted I didn't have the transition days right in front of me and posted 11.45, then later posted 11.45-12. Yes it's about when he wakes but it's also about him being used to a *set* nap time and we are now changing it which really needs to be in increments. It doesn't matter *exactly* (especially as he's been doing a bit of delaying himself) but obviously the jump to 1pm was too much for him so I wouldn't go to 12.30 right off, 11.45, or 12, if he refuses or delays it could end up a bit later but the idea is increments.
It's good you were able to APOP a nap in the carrier. This means if the nap is short you have an option of APOP CN later on. If the nap is long I'd go for early bed time rather than CN.
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Thanks creations!
He woke up at 8am.
Got ready to put him to bed at 12 noon. He was happy. At the very point, pooped all over himself. Had to shower him,upset during nappy change.
Put him down immediately after at 1215pm. Cried immediately.
Picked him up, calmed him down, back into bed. cried immediately but slept soon at 1225pm.
woke up 120pm crying. went back to sleep 130pm.
woke up 230pm.
I think he was too tired when I put him down for nap 1 at 1225pm.
What does it mean when lo wakes up after 55mins crying and then goes back to bed 5 mins later. Its unusual for him.
Will put him to bed 630pm tonight.
So far:
WU: 8am
Nap 1: 1225pm-230pm
Thanks for holding my hand through this process!
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He was a bit OT. In some case of very OT they are too wound up to get back to sleep, other times they are a bit UT so may cry but be unable to get back to sleep.
It was just unfortunate that he had a dirty nappy which delayed nap.
Stay at 12 at least 1 more day (maybe 2), he needs to adapt to this time before moving it on again.
You're doing very well. Hope BT and overnight goes smoothly for you.
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I agree he was a wee bit ot...but the fact that he went back to sleep is great! Poop happens! Hope bedtime goes smoothly for you xx
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Thanks ladies! The night went smooth. =) early bedtime ( 630pm), one night feed and woke up 645am.
The day has been funny though. He had a morning medical appointment and ended up falling asleep in the carrier for 20 mins from ( 1030-1050am).
Doctor's appointment and travel time took longer than expected. He missed his solids (lunch) and I had to give him his milk feed later than scheduled.
Got home 1220pm, I quickly breastfed him and he fell asleep on the boob. Woke him up before putting him to nap and he slept happily.
Woke up 155pm crying.
Think I should give him a cat nap later? ( will try carrier) Followed by regular bedtime? ( 730pm)
or should I do EBT ( 630pm? don't know if he will be able to last till 630pm though)
Today so far:
WU: 645am
Nap: 1030-1050am ( carrier, happy)
Nap: 1230pm - 155pm ( went down happy, woke up crying)
Any idea why he woke up crying after 1hr 25mins?
Is it okay to have move back and forth between 1 and 2 naps a day? I'm concerned that he will get confused by the change in naps. ( or maybe babies just have no idea and will zzz when they are tired)
On a good note, he passed his developmental check up. =) =)
And I managed to postpone his jab till 2 weeks time. I'm worried that a jab, 2-1 sleep transition, and all these outings are too much changes for myself and him to handle.
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So I went with EBT. He was happy the whole way, but fell asleep at the boob and I could not wake him up. Think he was extremely tired. Hopefully he will have a restful night.
today:
WU: 645am? ( checked him at 7am, he was awake)
nap 1: 1030-1050am ( carrier, happy)
nap 2: 1230-155pm ( went down happy but very tired, woke up crying)
EBT: 630pm ( extremely tired, fell asleep on the boob, could not wake him up, but was happy)
I think he's teething. Saw 2 little white spots on his upper palate.
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You've done really well to wing it through the day making your own decisions - great!!
Many LOs can manage to switch between 1 and 2 naps and that's how many people do the 2-1 transition, however not all LOs like the unpredictability of it. I find it a bit back and forth myself. I tend to think for your LO he will know quite soon to sleep longer for his nap/night if his routine is stable on 1 nap but if you get stuck one day with a short nap or like today having a surprise CN in the carrier then you can do the 2 naps.
I would aim for 12 nap the next couple of days x
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Dear creations,
Thanks! :)
He woke up early today. Checked on him at 630 am and he was up already. I only picked him up at 730am though. He played happily on his own till then.
He got really sleepy at 1040am.( so he probably woke up before 630?)
I was intending to feed him at 11am and put him down at 1130am.
Ended up: 1040am breastfeed ( so he wont wake up hungry during the nap). Fell asleep at the breast. couldnt wake him up and placed him in the cot where he continued sleeping.
so far:
WU: 630am ( or earlier?)
milk: 8am
milk: 1040 am ( I was intending 11am, but he was so sleepy at 1040am)
nap: 1045am-1220pm
I have a few questions:
Any idea why he is waking up early? I thought that he would sleep in until 7am. (yesterday, he napped 1030-1050am, 1230-155pm. bedtime:630am)
Also, does it make sense to only pick him up 730am or later? ( later if he wake up after 730am, else it's always 730am, never earlier)
I fix his first meal of the day ( 745-8am), regardless of what time he wakes up in the morning.
The rest of the day, milk feeds and solids times are flexible. ( I adjust them to fit his day's naps). As such, he can have 4 or 5 milk feeds a day at different times. one night feed. Is this confusing for him?
Or should I fix his feeds regardless of his wake up time and naps?
Ie: yesterday
wU: 7am
Milk: 8am
Solids: 9am
Nap: 1030-1050am
Milk: 11am
Milk: 1220pm
Nap: 1230-155pm
Milk: 330pm
Solids: 430pm
Milk and bedtime: 630pm
Today:
Wu: 630am
Milk: 8am
Solids: 9am
Milk: 1040am
Nap: 1045am-1220pm
Thinking of
Milk:2pm
Solids: 330pm
Milk:530pm
Milk and bedtime: 730pm
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Hmm...
I don't want to keep changing the game on you but we're heading backwards if he takes a nap earlier than his previous routine so I'm actually wondering we if she return to the previous set routine for a little while and then look again.
That's 2 days running he slept long before his 'set' nap time of, what was it 11.15 (?).
Today you will need a CN if he has woken at 12.20 he can't make it to 7.30 BT that's way too long.
I suggest today do CN at your regular set routine time, BT same.
Tomorrow no nap prior to 11.15, get back on the set routine with 2 naps.
For info. EW can happen if the first nap comes too early, he may cut his night shorter to self regulate his sleep. The problem with that is that then he is tired for his nap earlier so he has now napped early two days.
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Hi creations
I will move him back to his original 2 set naps then. It used to be 1115am, but he was resisting it, so I moved it to 1130am, and a catnap from 445-515pm. Do I start waking him up at 730am and not let him sleep in?
So it was:
WU: 730am (fixed)
Nap 1: 1130-115pm ( capped)
Nap 2: 445-515pm( capped)
Bedtime: 730pm
I gave him a capped nap today at 430pm. He went down easy and woke up happy at 515pm when I woke him up. Brought him swimming in his new inflatable bath tub and he got really tired. Went to bed happy at 730pm.
So today:
Wu: 630am
Nap 1: 1045-1220pm ( happy)
Nap 2: 430-515pm( happy)
Bedtime: 730pm ( happy)
Thanks! :)
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One more thing,
Is my lo considered low sleep needs? How much sleep should he be getting? Does it really matter as long as he seems happy?
I feel bad waking him up when he's sleeping and wish I could just let him zzz as long as he likes for naps and put him to bed when he's tired, yet I need the structure and predictability to function better as his mummy.
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Yes, return to this. Really he never got a proper start on the transition to 1 nap anyway as the last few days have been rather off track with one thing and another. So back to this and we'll take it from there. Lets' hope he settles into this again - the swimming will be great to help him take those naps with less resistance!!
So it was:
WU: 730am (fixed)
Nap 1: 1130-115pm ( capped)
Nap 2: 445-515pm( capped)
Bedtime: 730pm
Is my lo considered low sleep needs?
People have different ideas about low and high needs. Mine was considered on the low because of his long morning A time and short night but then he helped on to his one nap longer than some (not as long as others) and was still doing 12hr nights at 4yo which is not low needs at all.
I'm sure your LO is getting enough sleep, it's only that he appears to prefer a long night and may move to one nap sooner than most (but that may not be LESS sleep just sleep at a different time).
xx Don't feel guilty about any of this, you are doing Great! xx
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When I define my youngest as lsn mostly I am comparing her to her sisters and how fast she went through nap transitions. Her overall sleep is pretty low and always has been but really all I have been doing is following her cues and tweaking to suit our family - ie her bedtims is set at 8pm to be similar to her sisters and I capped & cut the nap to keep it that way. She would happily have been a napper with a short night but I need evening time for myself/DH!
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Thanks ladies!
I woke him up at 730am ( well, he was stirring at the same time too, so he may have woke up naturally).
Put him down for his nap at 1130am. (fell asleep 10 minutes later) He woke up 40 mins later, tried to go back to zzz. tossed for 10mins before crying for me.
Is he undertired?
today:
wu: 730am
nap:1140-1220pm ( put down 1130am. woke up happy tried to get back to zzz,then cried after 10 minutes)
I thought 20 mins crying naps are overtired. 40 mins happy naps are undertired. What are 40 minutes crying naps?
Not sure what to do later. Maybe try for a longer nap later in the afternoon and regular bedtime
Should I put him down 1145 am or 12noon tomorrow instead and try for:
WU: 730am
Nap:1145/12-145/2
nap 5-530
bedtime: 730pm
or should i stick to
wu:730am
nap: 1130
nap: 445-515
bedtime: 730pm
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When I define my youngest as lsn mostly I am comparing her to her sisters and how fast she went through nap transitions. Her overall sleep is pretty low and always has been but really all I have been doing is following her cues and tweaking to suit our family - ie her bedtims is set at 8pm to be similar to her sisters and I capped & cut the nap to keep it that way. She would happily have been a napper with a short night but I need evening time for myself/DH!
i always underestimate how adaptable los are. how do you manage 3? =)
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OK, looking UT for the morning nap which is how things were just before those few off days.
I'd try:
WU 7.30
nap 12 (if he wakes early in the morning do nap no earlier than 11.30) - 2.00
nap 5 - 5.15 (maybe sling rather than crib? he can just have a little snuggle and a doze?)
BT 7.30
How's that sound?
What are 40 minutes crying naps?
As always there is a range of possibilities and it really need the whole routine and the bigger picture looked at to clue in on what it is for an individual LO. Sometimes pain can disturb the sleep at the 40 min transition stage (when asleep they can escape the pain somewhat like a grown up, when sleep cycle comes to an end the pain may be felt more which rouses them into full wakefulness) just as an example, or being too hot, too cold, not in the place they usually sleep...all sorts. In this case with your LO my guess is UT. Not tired enough to transition easily too tired to be awake and happy.
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Thanks creations!
I will try out this routine tomorrow!
And thanks so much for the explanation! It does seem like he was UT.
He took a 2nd nap in the afternoon. Happily went down but woke up 45 mins later crying again. Regular bedtime. Went down happy.
So today:
Wu: 730am
Nap: 1140-1220pm ( woke up happy then started crying)
Nap: 410-5pm ( went down happy, woke up crying)
Bedtime: 730pm (happy)
Thanks for holding my hand!
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No problem. Happy to hold your hand. Before you know it you'll be paying it forward to other mum's giving BTDT advice on naps and routines ;)
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Dear creations,
Yes I do hope to one day be able to help other mothers who need advise on their lo's sleep needs. Those are big shoes to fill though. You ladies know so much. :)
Lo slept well with your advised routine
Wu: 730am( I woke him up but he was also stirring at that time)
Nap: 12-2( slept happy, woke up happy)
Nap: 5-515( happy in the carrier, capped)
Bedtime: 730pm
Do I stick to this 2 nap routine for the time being and leave 2-1 transition for the time being? Does it mean that I wake him up at 730am and not let him sleep in?
Do I cap his nap 1 if he is still sleeping at 2?
Or let him sleep past 2 if he chooses to do so? What do I do if I don't cap nap 1? Do I go for EBT or a later catnap and later bedtime?
Sorry if I rambling, I'm not sure what is best for him at the moment in terms of nap territory:
Solid 2 naps ( fixed 730pm bedtime or later bedtime if nap 1 is not capped),
mostly 2 naps but going for 1 nap if he oversleeps( not capping nap 1);
or getting him to transition to 2-1 naps.
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Do I stick to this 2 nap routine for the time being and leave 2-1 transition for the time being? Does it mean that I wake him up at 730am and not let him sleep in?
For now yes, and yes.
Lets see if he will settle into this. I really don't think it is long before that transition but we never really got a proper start on it did we, just a few off-track days instead. The reduced CN which you now have is another method towards the transition anyway, so in effect we are already moving that direction.
Do I cap his nap 1 if he is still sleeping at 2?
Yes, let's stick to 2 naps just for now so wake in the morning and cap nap 1 at 2pm.
He's going to show us the way so don't worry.
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Thanks creations!
I will stick to the routine then. =)
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I am still following along...meant to post last night and fell asleep on the couch! I agree with going back to the two nap routine and staying with that until he shows he needs a tweak. He will definitely let you know when he needs a change and we will be right here to help figure it out :)
i always underestimate how adaptable los are. how do you manage 3? =)
Well I've had nine years to get used to it ;) and they at least came one at a time...not sure how parents of multiples do it. You grow into it along with your lo's and as they grow they get more self sufficient (sometimes a good thing, sometimes not when your toddler can dress herself and chooses to wear a summer dress when it is 5°C in October!).
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Thanks ladies!
Sigh he woke up screaming at 1hr 20 mins into his nap. :( I left him there crying for 10 mins. He's quietened down but whimpering. Will pick him up now.
I know that they are just lil human beings too so I can't expect him to sleep like clockwork. But why did he wake up crying? He slept so happily at 12 noon.
Wu: 730am ( I woke him up)
Nap 1: 12-120pm ( slept happily. Woke up screaming)
I will probably give him a nap ard 430pm then regular bedtime at 730pm.
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I am still following along...meant to post last night and fell asleep on the couch! I agree with going back to the two nap routine and staying with that until he shows he needs a tweak. He will definitely let you know when he needs a change and we will be right here to help figure it out :)
i always underestimate how adaptable los are. how do you manage 3? =)
Well I've had nine years to get used to it ;) and they at least came one at a time...not sure how parents of multiples do it. You grow into it along with your lo's and as they grow they get more self sufficient (sometimes a good thing, sometimes not when your toddler can dress herself and chooses to wear a summer dress when it is 5°C in October!).
Yr lil one sounds like she has a mind of her own. =)
does one ever get used to it? How do you handle bedtimes and nap times and meal times and bath times? What do you do when all 3 want you?
I am amazed.
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With waking crying from a nap - sometimes you never know the why, perhaps he was startled out of sleep. You are right that he won't do things like clockwork and that sometimes (well a lot of the time!) you will not know the reasons for how he is behaving. I always tell DH to run through his head when DD3 is upset/crying - is she tired? Hungry? Thirsty? Wet/Dirty? Hurt?Teething? And if all those are "no" then just snuggle her up and don't worry about trying to fix it as he will never know what the cause was.
The thing with adding more kids (or even just getting into a routine with a singleton) is that you just roll with whatever happens. I was not so good at that with DD1, got a bit better with DD2 and DD3 came a lot later so we had to just fit her in where it worked. My older two were 5 & 7 when she was born so very capable and able to help me and look after a lot of things themselves.
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It's amazing the change that a child brings into your life. its a total change. I thought about crying babies, endless diaper changes, messes everywhere, but never ever a baby's sleep. I thought that babies would sleep easily like adults. Nap when they are tired and off to bed at night at normal times and up at normal times in the morning. And that when they slept at night, their parents could sleep as well. Oh my, the reality of it all.
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I still don't know how you do it Masyn Elliot spencer. Even though your kids are older now, each additional child still requires attention. How do you find the time to cater to each? How do you find time for yourself?
LO slept pretty okay today. Will continue with the routine!
wu: 730am ( I woke him up)
Nap 1: 1230-150pm
Nap 2: 5-520pm ( carrier. We went out)
Bedtime: 730pm.
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Looks like a great day! It might be helpful to remember that a lot of adults don't sleep easily or well either so not necessarily the best comparison.
As for having three - whether I am just lucky or my kids take after me, they are very independent and while of course they need me it is not the same thing at 9 years as it is at 9 months. One thing that drew me to BW was the Y part lol - I am an introvert and need that time so having my oids on a predictable routine was right up my alley. Plus I have DH who works an early shift and is home by 4 pm to spell me with the kids and shuttle them around to various activities.
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Oh my, the reality of it all.
There's rather a lot of parenthood which parents keep quiet about, I'm sure it's to keep the population going lol
The baby stage is not so long long in the bigger scheme of things. Each stage of development has it rewards and benefits as well as it's trickiness to deal with.
FWIW my mum had no idea at all with DS. She had 3 children herself but when it came to DS she always thought she could just stick a bottle in his mouth and he'd go to sleep - wrong - she also thought she could stick a dummy in his mouth and he would go to sleep - wrong again. He just didn't do those things. She was astonished the way I put him to sleep, just goes to show everyone has different experiences and different ideas and even a mum of 3 can be stumped by a baby who refuses to let a dummy into his mouth. :)
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Thanks ladies! =)
Masyn Spencer Elliotte, I'm an introvert too and need predictable time to myself.
Haha creations, my mum said the same thing. She also told me to always give him a bottle to get him to sleep, to rock him to sleep and to nurse him to sleep. She is very surprised with my EASY method of looking after lo.
Lo is very tired today. I cant explain why. He slept through the night last night ( I was surprised!), so I thought he would be more awake this morning. BUt fell asleep at the boob at 1120am and could not be roused. Will prob give him a catnap followed by regular bedtime.
WU: 730 ( he woke up himself)
nap 1: 1120am- 145pm ( fell asleep at the boob, woke up happy)
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Will prob give him a catnap followed by regular bedtime.
I love that you sound so confident and able to decide what to do on a day that didn't go perfectly to plan. You're doing great!
xx
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Thank you!
I'm slowly getting more confident with lo. Thanks for inspiring the confidence in me!
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Dear creations,
Lo has been napping shorter for his nap 1 for the past 3 days. Not terribly short, but still shorter than expected and he wakes up crying too. Do you think it is time for 2-1 nap transition, or should I let him continue with his current 2 nap schedule?
Day 1:
wU: 730
Nap 1: 12-1:30 ( wakes up crying)
Nap 2: 5-525( carrier, capped)
Bedtime: 730pm
Day 2:
Wu: 730am
Nap1: 12-130( wakes up crying)
Nap 2:445-520( capped)
Bedtime: 730pm
Today:
Wu: 730am
Nap 1: 1205-105pm ( woke up crying)
Nap 2: 420-505pm( woke up crying)
Bedtime: 730pm
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I'd move his first nap later. 12.15, uncapped.
When was nap 2 set at was it 5pm? Do it the normal time if he'll accept a sling nap. nap for about 15 mins, usual bed time.
xx
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Thanks creations.
Yup, His 2nd nap is about 5pm.
Put him down 1215pm.He went down happy.
How long do I stick with this 1215pm put down? Until he asks for changes?
I have noticed that he has been waking up a bit earlier for the past 3 days too with the 12 noon put down.
Will give him a catnap later followed by regular bedtime.
Thanks!
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How long do I stick with this 1215pm put down? Until he asks for changes?
Yes, let's see how it goes :)
You're doing great you know :)
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You are doing great! :) sorry I haven't been able to post much, things have got busy at home all of a sudden!
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Thanks for encouragement ladies.
Strangely enough, he has been extremely sleepy the last 2 days. Yesterday, he fell asleep at the boob at 11am. Today, he had a jab in the morning and fell asleep at the boob at 11am again. Really tired. Will see if he can make it to 1215pm tomorrow.
Yesterday:
WU: 730am ( uncapped)
nap 1: 11-1230pm (uncapped)
nap 2: 415-5pm ( uncapped)
today:
WU: 730am ( uncapped)
nap 1: 11-1230pm ( uncapped)
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Growth spurt? They often get extra sleepy when growing!
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I think he has his infant vaccinations, yes?
I'd expect the routine to be right off for a few days. Sleeping longer or having trouble sleeping after jabs is very common.
Some of the jabs have a side effect which can pop up a week or two after the jab too - I forget which ones but I did notice mine had reactions about 2 wks later after a particular jab too.
This is totally what people are talking about when they say routines go off track for various reasons and parents need the ability to roll with it - there is just so so much happening to babies its amazing they ever get on a routine!
I see the first sleepy day was before his jab, again could be all sorts of things, GS, teething, a cold coming on, there are just so many possibilities. You'll be ok though, deep breaths and trust that things will settle down again.
hugs I know you find the unpredictability difficult.
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Dear Creations and MasynSpencerElliotte,
thanks for the advice! =)
Yup, he did have his jabs so his naps were helter skelter. I'm guessing it might be partly due to a growth spurt too.
It was difficult for me to cope with him sleeping at 11am for the two days, I got very panicky and anxious. But I learnt from it! Even though he slept on the boob, it didnt become a prop and he napped independently again after that.
He's been good back on his regular schedule the past few days:
WU: 730am
Nap 1: 1215-150pm ( uncapped)
nap 2: 5-520pm ( capped)
bedtime: 730pm
Hugs!
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Yes once they are fairly well sleep trained and on a routine it is usually not too tough to come back to "normal" after these blips!
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haha just as I was fairly confident of handling lo, he's surprising me again!
Does his sleep need tweaking again? Or should I monitor for a few more days?
For the past 2 days, he has woken up earlier ( yesterday 645am?). Today he behaved very unexpectedly. He woke up at 630am crying. He normally wakes up happy. I doubt it was hunger as he had woken up at 430am for his night feed. I carried him but he continued crying, and only settled on the boob. I put him down happy and he slept 15 mins later for about 15 mins before waking up happy around 7am. He normally wakes up 730am ( on his own or I wake him up)
Does too short an A time to bed cause EWs? I have not been vigilant about what time he exactly sleeps for the past week. I put him to bed at 730pm everyday and assume that he sleeps quickly as there is no protest from him. He is awake when I put him to bed.
So for the past 2 days:
day 1
WU: 645 am (? when I checked)
Nap 1: 1215-150pm ( uncapped, woke up crying)
nap 2: 5-520pm ( carrier, capped)
bedtime; 730pm ( I assume that he sleep at this time, because I put him down and he doesnt protest. I don't check after that)
1 night feed
day 2:
WU: 630am ( crying, only settled at the boob, then further slept perhaps for 15 minutes?)
WU: 7 am
Should I continue with the 1215pm nap or tweak? Is it a vaccination reaction? I asked the nurse and she said that this jab ( hep B) should not affect his sleep but then again all babies are different.
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When did he have his vaccination? Was it a couple of days ago just before these changes in his sleep?
I'd probably put him down for his nap 15 mins later and see how it goes.
So:
WU (variable at the moment)
nap 12.30 - 1.50/2.00 (uncapped but I'd say not later than 2.15 for now)
CN 5.10 - 5.20 ish
BT 7.30
If the CN is refused I would move directly to the BT routine, get all your feeding, washing and changing done and try to get him to bed for 6.30pm.
OK?
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He slept early the day before his vaccination and on the day of his vaccination. the day after his vaccination he slept at 1215. So the early sleep wasnt exactly vaccination caused either.
Hmm...Today, he slept at 1120am on the boob again.
so today:
Wu: 630am ( nursed to resettle)
Wu: 7am?
Nap 1: 1120-1245pm ( uncapped)
nap 2: 445: 515 ( capped)
Feeling unsettled by his unpredictability. Cant fanthom why he is sleeping earlier again. But I will remember that babies are like normal human beings, they don't run like clockwork.
Will try for 12:30pm tomorrow. =)
Thanks creations!
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It looks like the earlier nap is because he's waking earlier in the morning. If he was awake at 6.30/7am then it makes sense he wants his nap earlier. If he wakes at 7.30 he's good for the 12.15 nap. I would really try to get to 12.15/12.30 to discourage the earlier waking. Waking earlier is something LOs do when their first nap comes to early for them. Although your LO is an angel and does nap really well it seems he is quite sensitive to having the right first A time to ensure he doesn't start to wake earlier and earlier.
So, the thing is when you give an earlier nap it kind of reinforces to him that it's ok to wake earlier and can cause a cycle of early WU, early nap, and so on.
Try to breath through the unpredictability and push forward tomorrow. You'll get back on track :)
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thanks for encouragement creations.
I'm hanging on. =)
he napped funny again today.
WU: 730am ( I woke him up)
he was sleepy at 1120am on the boob but i kept him up.
Nap 1: 1230-120pm ( woke up crying)
Sigh..why are babies so lovable yet so unpredictable.
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Dear Creations
He fell asleep on the boob at 1120am today. I think he woke up early( guessing 645-7am? ) for the past two days. The thing is, I put him down for his nap at 1230pm so I don't understand why he is waking up earlier in the morning. He also wakes up after his nap crying and the nap doesnt last more than 1.5hrs. Do you have a possible explanation why?
At night, I put him down at 730pm and I don't check to see what time he sleeps. He doesn't protest so I assume that he sleeps at 730pm.
Day 1:730am ( I whu)
nap 1: 1230-120pm ( down happy, woke up crying)
nap 2: 430-515 ( carrier. capped. we were out)
bedtime: 730pm
1 night feed
yesterday
Wu: 645-7? ( i think i checked him at 7am and he was awake.)
nap 1: 1230-145pm ( down happy, woke up crying)
nap 2: 4:50-515pm ( carrier)
bedtime: 730pm
today:
WU: 645 am? ( I checked him at 715am and he was awake)
nap 1: 1130am- ( totally fell asleep on the boob and refused to wake up)
What should I do? I'm feeling quite lost.
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Is he just crying while waking and then in a good mood after that? Or does he continue to be upset? Tbh if he is just unhappy right at wake up and ten finenI would not try to read too much into it so long as everything else is ticking along okay (nights going well?). I for one am horrid when I wake, no matter how well I slept!
Is he getting active at all? Crawling etc? My only other thought is if he is falling asleep at 11:30 he may be a bit ot or os due to other factors. I am much more of a winger with A times and naps so I never feel like I can give good advice regarding routine!
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Thanks masynspencerelliotte,
Recently, He cries when he wakes up from his naps, but he becomes happy after some carrying and cuddling. The thing is, he usually wakes up happy from his naps ( when they are long) and will roll around in his cot on his own for up to 45 mins.
He's just started being able to sit up on his own so perhaps that may be a factor in him getting OT.
I wIll try to not get too anxious over his sleep and try to put him to nap at 1230pm again tomorrow.
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Lots of things can make him tired earlier than he 'should' be. My guess would be some teething or developmental leaps or possibly that he has woken far too early in the morning, making him tired for his nap earlier.
On those naps where he wakes up before the 2hrs and he is crying my guess is he was UT for the nap and due to this has not transitioned into the next sleep cycle, however he cries because he is still tired. This is not a strict science honey, and I cannot guarantee this is the reason but I did experience this with my own DS. Most of the advice was to nap mine earlier because he sounded OT (waking crying rather than waking happy because often UT naps are happy wake ups) but I'd had one person think the opposite at some point and judging from my LOs history of liking a long first A time it never made sense to me to put him down for nap earlier...what worked was later, more tired, slept longer, was refreshed and woke happy again.
Sorry my response is not so well worded, I'm very short on time today, hope it makes sense.
I would continue to push that nap later, 12.30 and it's only a hunch but if you can get to 12.30 for a day or 2 and he does a proper 2hr nap like he used to then I would add another 5-10 mins on the next day.
I do think he is moving towards dropping to one nap, not this week perhaps, but his CN in the afternoon could be having an effect on reducing night length and he wakes earlier then tired earlier and can't get to his proper nap time...and another thought is that because he knows he is getting the CN later on he is perhaps not staying asleep for a proper full nap when he is supposed to.
another thing. If you get a good nap, 2hr, please try not to CN him too long. Can you reduce to 15 mins or 10 mins rather than 25-45. I know the temptation is to let him sleep because he lost sleep on his main nap but a long CN can be effecting the night and morning WU time.
sorry this is so jumbled!!
xxxx
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Sorry my response is not so well worded, I'm very short on time today, hope it makes sense.
another thing. If you get a good nap, 2hr, please try not to CN him too long. Can you reduce to 15 mins or 10 mins rather than 25-45. I know the temptation is to let him sleep because he lost sleep on his main nap but a long CN can be effecting the night and morning WU time.
sorry this is so jumbled!!
xxxx
Dear creations
Thanks for taking the time to write even though you are rushing for time. :) I really appreciate it.
Do I keep his catnap v short even if his main nap is short? Like today, I put him down at 1230pm but he woke up at 145pm. (1hr 15 mins) So should catnap for today be 5-515pm?
His morning wake up and first nap time is getting a bit strange. He fell asleep on the boob yesterday at 1130am but it wasn't unexpected as he woke up early. But he woke up 730am today but fell asleep at the boob at 1120am. I kept him awake( he was miserable initially but perked up soon), put him down happy at 1230pm and he woke up at 115pm crying lightly.
He started sitting up on his own yesterday and today is beginning to pull at the cot railings so perhaps it's a developmental change.
Yesterday:
Wu: 645 am
Nap1: 1130-115pm (fell asleep on the boob)
Nap 2: 445-515pm
Today:
Wu: 730am ( on his own)
Nap 1: 1230-115pm ( woke up crying)
I will continue to work at putting him down at 1230pm.
Thanks!
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Do I keep his catnap v short even if his main nap is short? Like today, I put him down at 1230pm but he woke up at 145pm. (1hr 15 mins) So should catnap for today be 5-515pm?
Yes I think so. I am very aware of how young your LO still is and in part in makes me cautious to reduce is day sleep but if I put aside his age and look more at his sleep pattern it feels like the afternoon CN is getting in the way of his full night and full nap. Or even that the micro nap when he nods on the breast at 11.20 is compromising his proper nap.
Heidi I wonder if you have any thoughts on this?
Just thinking out loud here - I wonder how things would be if we let him have that little CN at 11.30 (or 11.20am whenever the feed is where he nods off) and then moved his proper nap much later, so no CN at 5pm?
It is not something I am familiar with and the timings would be a bit of a guess but as a starting suggestion maybe something like:
"the 10 min CN routine"
WU 6.30/7.30 (not capped just he seems to be varying WU time)
(A roughly 4hr)
CN 11.20 -11.30 (10 mins enough?)
(A roughly 2.5hr)
Nap (1.5-2hrs) 2.00 - 3.30/4.00 (or perhaps 1.30 is better??)
(A roughly 4hr)
BT 7.30
another option would be to look at a more standard routine for 8-9 months something like:
"the 3.5hr A routine"
WU 6.30 (capped, you would need to start the day at this time)
A 3.5
nap 10.00 - 10.30 (30 min capped) (the 11/11.20 feed then comes after nap and you don't need to worry about him being hungry as he is only going to sleep 30 mins and not miss a feed)
A 3.5
nap 2.00 - 3.30 (1.5hr restorative sleep)
A 3.5
BT 7.30 (allows 11hr night instead of 12)
I've just given them names so we can refer to them more easily.
Either of you have any thoughts on these suggestions? Any gut instinct?
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Dear Creations
Thanks for the suggested routines. They make sense but I'm very hesitant to try them as its such a big change in routine. Do you think trying to get him to continue napping at 1230pm will work out?
He's sleeping funny. Went to bed very tired last night ( he was hurrying me to put him to bed, didnt even want his bedtime song), but woke up around 330am lightly protesting. He sat up, rolled around and continued mildly protesting. It was not a 'hungry' cry and I left him alone. Not sure if he went back to bed. 430am he was hungry, so night feed it was. I don't know what time he woke up, think it was early, as he was up when I got him at 730am. He got tired around 1030am, but I kept him awake and pushed his feed back 15 mins as I knew he would fall asleep on the boob. 1145am fell asleep very tired on the boob.
yesterday:
WU: 730am
1120am ( sleepy on the boob but I woke/kept him up)
Nap 1: 1230am-115pm ( down happy, up crying midly)
nap 2: 5-515pm ( carrier. happy down, happy up)
bedtime: 730pm (sleepy)
330am woke up but didnt protest much, don't know whether he went back to bed
430am, hungry, so fed him
today:
WU: ??? ( guessing 630-7am?)
Nap 1: 1145am (sleepy fr 1030am, kept him up, pushed his feed back 15 mins as I knew he would fall asleep on the boob. Fell asleep on the boob)
What do you think?
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Can I ask on another thing?
Just thinking ahead as I'm a bit of a worry wart. Lo will be starting playschool when he's 18 months. ( 10 months from now)
I've a few schools in mind, but the one that I would most like to send him only has classes from 12-3pm.
Just wondering how do 18 months old attend school between 12-3pm. Isnt that approximately around their usual nap time if they only take 1 nap a day?
I'm thinking of sending him to my second choice of playschool because its in the morning 9-12pm. Does it make sense to not send lo to the choice school simply because it coincides with his nap time?
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That is strange to have playschool for 18 month olds at that time! Personally I would go for a morning time as with an already lower sleep needs kid a fun filled morning will help with napping!
Creations I tend to agree with the micro naps getting in the way of the good midday nap (also developmental stuff too, sounds like he is raring to get moving!) and overnight sleep. Swapping a morning catnap and longer later nap was one thing I never tried with DD3 as we had to be out for the school run at 8:30 & 3:00 so I organized the day based on that. But I really think it could work! I personally always liked an apop catnap so keeping at feed time and using the prop to your advantage (so long as it did not become a habit for all sleeps - babies are smart cookies, DD3 always expected to be held at certain times and slept independently at other times). So the 10 min catnap one creations has laid out appeals to me!
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Do you think trying to get him to continue napping at 1230pm will work out?
If he was *only* napping at 12.30 then yes I do think it could work out, but my main concern is that he keeps nodding off for a micro nap on the boob. I know you are trying to avoid it but it's almost impossible and if he's anything like mine then a 2 min nap and he will think he's had a proper full nap and end up messing his other sleeps up.
It's also on my mind that the late CN may be effecting his night sleep, and that by nodding off each day around 11.30 he seems to be telling us he would like a little doze there instead. Whilst I'm not there with him I am trying to interpret his 'requests' as best I can, but only you know him best honey and no matter what we advise here, the final call is yours.
That is strange to have playschool for 18 month olds at that time!
I also think it strange. Whilst mine did not go to a play school at that age we did sign up for mum and toddler groups and it amazed me just how many were put on for toddlers in the afternoon when he was sleeping.
I made all of our arrangements around naps and chose only morning classes/groups to go to. Eventually at just over 2yo he was showing signs to drop his afternoon nap (2-4pm) and so I signed up for a ballet class to distract us both from nap time. The class was 1-2 I think...well he just went to sleep after it! It was only once per week.
I reserved a place at nursery (reserved at age 2, started age 3) doing mornings only so that I could bring him home to nap after it, but by the time he started he had totally dropped his nap so we switched the days around and he stayed there for lunch and into the afternoon instead.
I'm thinking of sending him to my second choice of playschool because its in the morning 9-12pm. Does it make sense to not send lo to the choice school simply because it coincides with his nap time?
Time wise I would go for the morning class even if I thought the class was not quite as good as another. However if I felt there was a *huge* difference in the offering I would probably look for a third option. You need to have a good gut feeling about the place and the staff IMO, I looked for good vibe from staff, outside play available as much as possible, and healthy food if staying for lunch. I minded far less about what toys they had as I think kids can play with anything, the place needs to be relatively clean but not brand new and old toys/equipment don't really bother me so long as they are safe. some places look great because they are all sparkly new but the staff might not be as friendly for example.
Some places make the kids sleep at a set nap time - have you checked if this is part of the programme? I wouldn’t really want to sign up to a place where they just go to sleep for 2 hours unless it was because I had to have childcare so I could work for example. Everyone has different needs so it is very individual.
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Thanks Creations and MasynSpencerElliotte
The second choice of school is pretty good too, except its a tad further, so I'll most probably put him there instead. Naps are part of the full day program, but lo will only be there the play sessions. Thanks for the head up for what to look for when choosing a school. Its pretty easy to get attracted by spanking new facilities. I know, its so strange for playschool to be running between 12-3pm.
Did your ds enjoy the ballet class Creations? Its unusual for little boys to attend ballet ( sorry for sounding so gender stereotype). How did you know that he would enjoy ballet? When do they start showing an interest in things? My lo currently simply enjoys chewing tissue paper. ;)
Back to sleep talk.
Yup, he fell asleep on the boob again at 1130am. ( but he woke up 730am and slept well last night)
Any idea why he's getting sleepy here? I was pushing his nap back as he wasnt sleeping well at 1130am previously. Shouldnt his A times be increasing instead of decreasing?
Do you think that its because I pushed his feed later? (I used to feed him at 1030am for his nap at 1130am. Now because the aim for naptime is 1230pm, i feed him at 1130am). Would feeding him at 11am prevent him from sleeping at 1130am, and I can keep him up till 1230pm?
He was so sleepy that I just let him sleep and did not keep him up. ( yikes, hopefully boobies dont become a prop for him. He's been sleeping on the boob for the past 3 days!)
Do you think that I could continue letting him sleep at 1130am ( uncapped nap), then a very short 10-15min cat nap then bedtime? OR will that encourage EW and short naps? Ohhh I don't know.
day before yesterday:
WU: 730am
1120am ( sleepy on the boob but I woke/kept him up)
Nap 1: 1230am-115pm ( down happy, up crying midly)
nap 2: 5-515pm ( carrier. happy down, happy up)
bedtime: 730pm (sleepy)
330am woke up but didnt protest much, don't know whether he went back to bed
430am, hungry, so fed him
Yesterday:
WU: ??? ( guessing 630-7am?)
Nap 1: 1145am- 130pm (sleepy fr 1030am, kept him up, pushed his feed back 15 mins as I knew he would fall asleep on the boob. Fell asleep on the boob. woke up happy)
Nap 2: 445-515pm ( he was very sleepy as family came over to play with him. slept in the cot)
Bedtime: 730pm
Today:
WU: 730am ( woke up himself)
Nap1: 1140-115pm ( fell asleep on the boob, woke up happy at 115pm)
Will give him a cat nap 5-15pm then regular bedtime.
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Do you think that I could continue letting him sleep at 1130am ( uncapped nap), then a very short 10-15min cat nap then bedtime?
Do you know what - if this is your gut feeling then go for it. There is no harm in trying it and seeing how it pans out.
I mean it's totally possible that he had some sort of blip making us all think he needed a later nap when he was just having a blip and is great on the 11.30 nap.
Sorry that it is not so cut and dry as you'd like, I know we all keep telling you, this is babies, and you do already know that. You really are doing great though, the anxiety may be raised for you with these less predictable days but you have done magnificently to see to his needs.
And by the way if I felt going back to a nap at 11.30 was a terrible idea I would try to politely tell you. I don't think it's a terrible idea and I do think if your gut is telling you this then we really ought to try it.
From tomorrow then (or rather from today as you did it today) :)
Did your ds enjoy the ballet class Creations?
To begin with he liked to watch, that was his way when he was young, I didn't force him to join in but he chose when he was ready. Honestly I only chose the class because it was on at our local childrens centre and I basically signed up for anything we could possibly go to. He did enjoy it though, at that age the kids have no idea of gender stereotypes so tend not to question why a boy is there, anyway I told DS the truth that male ballet dancers have to be super strong and muscular.
My lo currently simply enjoys chewing tissue paper.
Ha ha, maybe some kids cooking classes when he's up on his feet? We did a cooking class too, very simple stuff, fun.
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Thanks!
Lo sTTN last night!
He's been getting drowsy and sleepy on the boob at 1130am n I've been letting him zzzz. He sleeps abt 1.5-1.45hrs and wakes up pretty happy. Gets tired ard 445pm so it's catnap from there till 515pm. The nights have been going good. Hope it continues. :)
So it's been:
Wu: 730am
Nap 1: 1145-145pm (uncapped)
Nap 2: 445-515pm ( uncapped)
Bedtime: 730pm
A question abt props. He gets drowsy on the boob but I wake him up before putting him in the crib. Has been so for quite a number of days. Will lo start associating the boob with sleeping? I do ensure that he is awake before I put him down though. Or should I push his feed earlier? ( but his feeds are already quite close in the morning)
I'm looking forward to taking little one to classes when he's a little older. Cooking, dancing sounds fun! :)
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Would you be able to look at my feeding schedule and see if it's okay?
Wu: 730am
E: 8am
E:9am ( this feed is only if he takes a bit at 8am. Sometimes he doesn't want to drink much at 8am, so I try to feed him again at 9am and he guzzles)
Solids:10am
E: 1130am
Nap: 1145-130pm/145pm ( uncapped. Drowsy on boob)
E: 230pm
Solids: 330pm
Nap: 445-515pm ( capped)
Bedtime: 730pm
Thanks!
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Wow! Wonderful routine! So your gut feeling of an uncapped nap at 11.30 was spot on - Go Mama!!! :)
On the E routine. Looks fine. The morning milk feeds are a little unusual but some LOs just don't like to eat first thing when they wake in the morning and need a bit of awake time first. So long as he is feeding well, it's fine.
I am assuming there is another milk feed just before BT too.
WRT props and feeding to sleep, if you just rouse him a little before putting him down I'm sure it will be ok. I used to tell mine (if he ever nodded off before he was in bed) quite loudly "I'm putting you into bed now so you can sleep properly. Call if you need me" so he was truly aware that I was going. He usually opened his eyes a moment then went to sleep.
Really, everything looks really good. Hopefully this routine can continue for you so you feel the predictability of the day again. Well done you for listening to LO and finding where his best sleep would come :)
:D :D :D
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Thanks for the compliment. =)
Lo has been sleeping well for the past few days. I hope it continues. 2 days of STTN and goes down for naps easy. =)
And thanks for the reassurance that he won't use them boobies as a prop. I'm taking a leaf out of your book: Now, I always tell him " have a nice nap. Mummy loves you!'
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You're doing so so brilliantly!
Really great to hear he is back to sleeping well again. And again I have to say - you found that routine yourself!! :D
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Thanks creations =)
He's been napping well and in a good mood. I couldn't have done it without your help!!
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:)
Well, as the title says, let's see how long nap routine lasts before it changes again :) :) :)
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I'm trying to enjoy the predictability while it lasts! :)
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dear creations,
will a holiday mess up lo's independent sleep ability?
DH is suggesting going on a 3 day holiday in January. I'm concerned if lo will be able to sleep in the portable cot. And what to do if he doesn't. And if it will mess up his sleep routine.
How does one bring a 9 month old on a holiday while ensuring that lo retains independent sleep? Or do lo's end up sleeping in the bed with mum? But don't they roll off beds?
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We always co-sleep on holidays...but I do try to start them in the playpen! No one has rolled out but I sleep quite lightly in strange places. I would not let fear of routine disruption keep you from a fun trip - I wont say it is always easy to get back to routine once home but we have never had it totally throw us of the rails. And the kids generally handle it better than DH and I! We were gone from July 22- Aug 14 in 3 locations and they all did great. DD3 even had a leg in a cast at the time.
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I didn't stay over night somewhere with DS until he was 3yo! So I am not a great one for advise on this but if you think you will enjoy the holiday then go :)
Sorry I forgot where you are, just thinking it may be worth taking a hot water bottle, you can pre-warm the portable cot so that if he does end up sleeping on you to fall to sleep or end up in bed with you, you may have a greater chance of transferring him tot he portable cot once he is in a deeper sleep, if it's warm it is less of a shock and less telling that he has been moved form you bed. Do make sure to remove the hot water bottle or any additional items before you put him in though, obviously normal rules apply for sleep safety (and not too hot on the water bottle either, you want it cosy like a Mummy cuddle but not over heat him!).
I generally go along the lines that an independent sleeper may want or need help in different circumstances or environments but will also return to independence pretty quickly once everything has settled back to normal. I wouldn't worry too much and we are here to help if you need it :)
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Thanks ladies!
I'm going to have to think very long and hard about whether or not to go on a holiday.
I might prob end up way too anxious throughout the entire holiday which totally defeats the purpose of he trip!
Thanks for the advice!