BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: JennVanessa1083 on September 23, 2015, 10:14:28 am
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Hello,
I have written about the issues with bedtime and evening night waking a before. I have gotten good advice on another board to treat waking as if they are middle of the night ones. It started working. However, now these issues are worsening and I'm desperate for help.
Background: LO is about to be 16 weeks. Bedtime has been on the decline where he won't settle for the night. After bedtime (which I have a consistent routine in place), he would wake up every 45-1 wanting to eat before finally knocking out around 10. It was not ideal but I would feed him and he would go back to sleep. I would take it as tanking up before his big sleep. This happens with early 7 am wake ups as well. However, once he finally fell asleep, he would sleep 9-11 hours straight through; no NW. In the last couple of days, he is not only resisting bedtime, but wakes up 20-45 (45 if I'm lucky) minutes later then stays up for almost 2 hours despite our efforts to get him to go to sleep. He's hyper and playful at first then spirals down to a meltdown. I have resorted to APOP Bc he's so tired and distressed it's the only way. By this time he's crying and I'm crying Bc it's so overwhelming! Then he proceeds to wake at different times throughout night; hungry. It's never at the same time and I always give him about 10 minutes to try to resettle before feeding; so I believe it's hunger. I try to bulk up his calories during the day and it used to work but not sure why it doesn't now...sleep regression or growth spurt?
Napping is pretty good; he self settles and can sleep 1.5; I help him transition at times but it's nothing crazy at all. His current A is 1.75; this was just increased in the last week. His morning nap is golden but he wakes up after his first cycle in the afternoon naps. Like I said resettling him isn't bad. Yesterday it took a bit more but I'm chalking it up to not enough wind down time since we just got home from a music class.
I just am at the end of my rope; I barely eat or shower in the evening Bc I'm busy trying to get him to sleep. At this point I dread bedtime Bc I know what's coming. I'm frustrated with myself Bc I can't figure this out and I feel terrible that it gets to the point that it does. I really need help in figuring this out. Is it OT or UT or both? How do I help him? Maybe my A needs pushing or maybe I need different As in the afternoon and evening?
I can post my EASY if that helps-I just need help Bc I know he's not getting what he needs and it's really getting to me. Thank you!
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Hello!
I know nothing about EASY really....but I recognise these feelings of being at the end of your tether and feeling like if you could just tweak the nap by 5 minutes one way or something it would all sort itself out. I think it's important to remember that, from the sounds of it, you are doing an absolutely fantastic job, and that one (blissful!) day in the future naps will be a thing of the past and your baby will sleep through the night. Definitely.
I'm sure some knowledgable person will have some suggestions, but my advice would be: 1. Don't stress it - babies do what they do. You can help them along the way but they are all different and do things at their own pace. 2. Sounds like you have a bright, alert little thing - you must be very proud of him and 3. Do you have someone to help in the evening whilst you have some food and a shower? This is v important! 4. Don't worry about him getting what he needs. I worried all the time about chronic sleep deprivation and it doesn't seem to have had any impact long term.
Finally, I remember 16 weeks as being particularly awful, and it did get better. Have some virtual chocolate from me and hang in there!
Xxx
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Hi!!
Thank you so much for your encouragement and suggestions. He is one alert little boy and I LOVE him for it! It's only an issue at bedtime lol he's even good with naps surprisingly.
I have my hubby and he helps when he can but he comes home late from work due to the commute and usually DS wants his mama putting him to bed. However, last night I gave him to my hubby while I ate and showered which definitely refueled me!
You are right he does what he does. I guess as a FTM everything is magnified! I just want to make sure I'm doing my best to ensure growth and more importantly rest. But I guess that's what all moms want ;D
It is such a tricky age with all the growth spurts, developmental leaps, and possible sleep regression. I'm hoping I'm not entering the sleep regression stage!
Thank you again!
Hugs,
Jennifer
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Sorry your evenings are stressful atm. He's at a rough age for sleep as there's a lot going on. Yes, the 4 month regression could definitely be a factor, growth spurt is likely if he's always hungry, and there is a wonder week that starts around 15 weeks and peaks at 17 weeks. Some babies are more affected by these things than others (my second is one whose sleep is thrown off by every little thing so I understand your frustration).
I think pp gave you some good advice, especially not to worry about your LOs needs being met. Your are giving him the opportunity to sleep and helping him as much as you can, but you can't force him to sleep. He'll figure it out and your evenings won't always be this way even though it might feel like it. I do understand the worry about him not getting enough sleep when you know he needs it, but he will be ok, and you need to not stress and feel guilty when things don't go quite right. There's so much changing and growing going on in the first year, please don't drive yourself crazy thinking it's you doing something wrong. These little people like to mix things up and confuse us!
The only thing I can think routine-wise is how does the end of the day look? You mentioned the am nap is good and the pm map is decent with a resettle, but what happens after that? At this age I'm guessing there's still a CN? How does that last nap and A to bed look?
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Hugs xx
I'd say at 16 weeks you could do with pushing your A time to 2 hours. Sounds like your little guy is UT and treating bedtime as a CN and then doing his A time again before settling to bed. If you want to post your basic EAS I can take a look.
I found 4/5 months the worst with my DD1 but after that things definitely settled and things were a lot better.
What helped me was just letting DH do bedtime every other night. I took a bath, ate, watched TV and just was off duty. I fed her then DH took over. It took me a few weeks to settle in to it and not feel like I had to be doing it but it was good for DH and my DD to work out their own way of doing things.
How does your LO settle to sleep? Have they a dummy?
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Hi ladies!
Thank you so much for responding! Well I guess I spoke too soon about the naps. Today he has cried mid cycle with both so far. I managed to resettle with APOP and as we speak he is finishing up in my arms as I type. Well first nap he woke up at 50 minutes then I resettled; this nap he woke up at 38 minutes wanting to nurse; now he's asleep.
I agree it's such a tough age with sleep as I am seeing. I'm a FTM so this is all new to me. I guess as you said Emami, I can't force him I can only create opportunities. My fear is a chronically OT baby especially when he's developing so much! I do like the idea Shiv of having DH help while I take breaks. I think DS is so used to me that he cries more with DH so I run in to the rescue. Maybe I should relax on that.
I actually thought about the possibility of extending A time to 2 hours. I agree with you Shiv that perhaps he's UT throughout the day. He will be 16 weeks tomorrow so maybe he needs more A. I thought Bc he would settle easily for naps it was good at 1.75 but after today I'm thinking maybe not.
Here is a rough EASY from yesterday and today. CN hasn't happened as he has been getting up at 9:30! Which is another issue I suppose so I do three full naps. Maybe that's part of the problem?
He's a paci snob so he doesn't use them no matter how's my times I've tried. He wears a zippy so usually when he's super drowsy he will start fussing and I put him down and he rolls on his tummy sucking on his hand and falls asleep. At night it's usually nursing until very drowsy put him down and same thing as nap time.
NW: 4:27, 6:30
WU: 9:38
E: 9:46
A
E: 10:44
A
E: 11:18
S: 11:22- 12:48 (A 1:43; I burped him after the last feed so he doesn't fall asleep at the breast)
E 12:54
A
E: 2:34
S: 2:41- 4:23 ( A 1:53; after music class, changed him and fed him. Went a couple of minutes over. Woke up at 30 min mark happy; finished feed went back to sleep)
E: 4:43
A
E5:45
A
S 6:05-7:15 (woke up at a certain point to nurse then knocked out for ten more minutes)
E: 7:26
A Bath and bedtime routine
E: 8:58pm (last feed)
S: 9:09 pm (A 1:54)
Woke up 9:30 to eat and didn't go back to sleep until 11 pm
NW: 3:20, 5:44
WU: 9:31 am
E: 9:47 am
A
E: 10:52
A
S: 11:19 (A 1:48; took a bit more to settle); woke up at 50 minutes finished nap in my arms
E: 1:34
A
E 2:14
A
S: 2:48- (A 1:50; fought nap wouldn't settle crying; rocked him)
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Sorry! I meant to ask...how do I go about extending A? What I did the last time to get it to 1.75 is just do it cold turkey. Not sure if that's the best approach for my situation. Also I want him to go back to 8 am wake up so should I just start waking him up tomorrow at 8 even if he goes to sleep at 11?
Thanks so much ladies! I really appreciate this!
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Ok, looking at your day I do think he's UT. He's getting about 4hrs sleep in a not-quite 12hr day. If you want to try a 2hr A time I think cold turkey would be fine, it's only an increase of 15mins so quite gentle. But to start the day earlier I probably wouldn't just jump straight to an 8am WU as he'd be losing 1.5hrs of night sleep. It's up to you what you feel he could handle and how fast you want to try to shift it, but I would maybe wake him at 9 for a couple of days, then 8:30, then 8. Or you might not have to if the longer A times sort out the NWs and he STTN, he would likely wake a bit earlier than he is at the moment after some solid sleep.
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Yes Emami I think those are great suggestions. That was my concern with waking him up at 8 when he's been waking up at 9:30. I can try the every couple of days thing. So my next question would be do I start 2 hours asap? He just woke from nap 2 so do I push for 2 hrs A now or start fresh tomorrow. Also I'm assuming no CN anymore, since it would make BT too late?
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I just want to start by offering (((hugs))). 16 weeks was a really tough age with my DD (lots of BTs exactly as you describe) and I remember how frustrated and anxious I felt. I was also fearful of chronic OT but if you can, try to put that out of your head. Worrying does nothing but drive you round the bend. I spent so much time with DD worrying about when to put her down, obsessing about what I did wrong, and timing and logging every nap that I did lose out on just enjoying her. Before I had DS, I asked for advice here and I received wonderful support and practical tips on this thread: Tips for handling sleep anxiety. I hope it can help you too. :-*
I agree that gradually changing the wake-up is a good idea. Depending on nap length, you will likely still need a CN. The beauty of a CN is that it can be longer or shorter depending on what you need to get through to BT on any given day.
Does your LO give many sleep cues?
Having your DH help at BT will do wonders for you but it does take a bit to relax and leave him to it, especially if it doesn't appear to be going well. Jump in the shower or turn up the tv and just ignore what's going on. Also, if you are getting really stressed, just APOP if it helps. My DD did tons of naps in the swing (and nights at that age because it was just easier) and it was very easy to transition her to the crib.
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I just wanted to add that both DD and DS had an increase in NWs at 4/5 months. They went away on their own.
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Thank you so much for the link and the encouragement! I will for sure be reading it asap. Tonight was bad. He has been waking up every 50 minutes...still is, I just fed him. He gives some cues like rubbing eyes, yawning, decreased activity but that is usually early on in A.
I actually have been cosleeping but am worried that the longer I do it the harder it will be to transition. We had him in the crib since 8 weeks or so and he was doing great. Now it feels like everything has been undone. Tried tonight but it was the same thing; he woke up at the 50 mark. I'm hoping its Ut bc usually he is able to self settle but tonight is a different story.
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I think as the ladies said there are a few issues.
You need to alter your wake up time and get your A time up to 2 hours. But I am also wondering about his E times. They are short and I wonder is he snacking as opposed to taking full feeds? You also mention he is taking a feed mid nap to get back to sleep at some times? I'm wondering are you creating a prop using feeding? Also I would make sure if you are doing a top up feed it is at least 15/20 minutes before you stop your nap winddown.
I absolutely wouldn't rescue DS and DH. He will cry more with him until they find their groove but it's important DH can do bedtime too YK? You need a break too and it's good for DS to be able to settle for DH.
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Hi Shiv!
Yes I thought about whether I'm encouraging snacking. When he wakes up, it's usually 3-5 hours later and he would only empty one breast. I always offer the second but he never takes it, which is why I end up feeding him again around an hour later. I try my best to have A time after the second feed so he doesn't have an association with feeding and sleep. Not sure if this is still happening. I could be creating a sleep prop with the nursing between naps at times. Should I just stop cold turkey? I definitely don't want to create a problem for down the road. I chalked it up to him going through a growth spurt since he is officially 16 weeks and is going through a wonder week.
I have contracted my DH to helps since last night. I will definitely be more diligent to encourage him to help with bedtime bc it's true I do need a breather. Being a SAHM is exhausting and I need to refuel especially since I'm tending to all the nw since DH teaches.
I have been up practically every hour this entire night. Could it be I have hit the sleep regression stage? He is showing signs of it according to what I have read. I'm really hoping stretching out the A will help bc this is exhausting. I just spent the past half hour watching my son flip flop back and forth in his sleep. I checked my timer and it's only been 90 minutes or so into his sleep. Thankfully he does know how self-soothe for the most part as he just fell into a deep sleep again.
Ladies I'll admit I'm terrified of the sleep regression. I have heard horror stories and I am really hoping this is not going to be that or if it is that, then it won't be as horrible.
Thanks again for the advice!
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I just spent the past half hour watching my son flip flop back and forth in his sleep. I checked my timer and it's only been 90 minutes or so into his sleep. Thankfully he does know how self-soothe for the most part as he just fell into a deep sleep again.
But he was asleep, yes? Hun, I think if you are feeling anxious about his sleep you should ditch the video. You don't need to know his every little move. He will let you know if he needs you! Could you just use sound on the monitor but don't sit and watch him? Get some of your evening back! It sounds like you just sat and watched him and worried that he would wake up. I hope this doesn't sound flippant, I know he genuinely does wake and your evenings have been tough, but you don't need to make it harder for yourself. If you can't hear him he's ok :-*
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Hi Emami!
Sorry for the confusion, this wasn't the evening. The evening went the same, he slept for 50 minutes, then 36, then stayed up for an hour or so until falling asleep at around 11. Then woke up at 12:30 etc.
Him flip flopping happened in the middle of the night on multiple occasions. My guess is he trying to practice rolling bc he would not stay put and sounded frustrated. We are currently sharing a room (1bedroom apartment in NYC). He was awake ever hour or 2 all night long. I'm hoping with the stretch of A time, we will both sleep better.
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Sorry I meant to ask this before...how do I stretch out feedings when he starts the day only drinking one breast?
Today he woke up at 8 am, ate and went back to sleep so I'm attempting to stretch it out now. How far should I be stretching out and to go about it?
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It could be he only needs one breast now? I know at 4 months both mine became much much more efficient feeders and I did single side feeding and where they previously took 30/40 minutes to feed they were able to take a full feed in 10 minutes, 15 minutes top. It was so strange. When you are offering the other breast before the nap is he emptying that too?
How often do you feel he is needing to feed at the minute? I know Tracey says 4 hours but a lot of BF babies don't make it 4 hours. I know both of mine only did about 3.5.
How were your naps and A times today? I also meant to ask what your ideal bedtime is?
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Hi!
Yes usually he empties the other breast. I tried to feed him 45-1hr after the first feed. He is also a very efficient feeder. He can have a full feed in 10 minutes. I think the longest he can do is 3 hrs. I stretched it out today to 3 hrs which he fed from both breasts and still wanted a top up an hour later...I guess he's just a hungry baby? Lol
The A time worked wonderfully for the first nap. He transitioned into the next sleep cycle without any help. He slept for 1.5 hr. I will be putting him down again after 2hrs A. I do wonder bc my day started so late (he would not wake up until 10:15 despite my efforts)
should I just do a CN as the third nap?
Ideally I would want BT at 8. Not sure what a 4 hr EASY would look like with an 8-8 day. Could you give me an example?
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Update: 2nd nap he woke up at 35 minutes wanting to eat. I'm in the process of resettling. Maybe OT due to A time change?
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If you can, try not to worry about what caused the 35 minute wake for the second nap and focus instead on the successful first nap. It can take a few days for LOs to adjust to new A times so I would just stay the course for a few more days even though it's tempting to try to "fix" it right away.
An 8-8 day might look something like this:
WU and E: 8
S: 10-11:30
E: 12ish
S: 1:30-3
E: 3/3:30
S: 5-5:30/5:45
E: 6
BT: 8
Sometimes feeding gets a bit messy around this time as the A times stretch. Some LOs can easily go 4 hours and some can't. My DS often only took one breast in the am so I would offer the other side about an hour later. If that didn't work, I offered during his WD. I did leave the light on but sometimes he did fall asleep while nursing - it didn't become a prop for him. I always offered a feed as part of his BT WD.
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Hi Lilly!
Thank you for your response. Yes you make a good point where I had to reread that sentence about focussing on the good morning nap and not the wake up during the second nap. Funny how we can sometimes zero in on what's wrong rather than appreciating what went great.
Also thank you for the sample EASY. That helps a lot. So I'm a little confused around A after CN and before BT. Tonight my LO ended up Doing a CN rather than a third nap. I had planned a half hour but he woke up at 26 minutes. I chalked it up to him adjusting to the new A time. Anyways, I ended up giving him a bath and doing his BT routine. I was under the impression that after a CN you cut down the A by a half hour. However, he was NOT trying to go down at 1.5 A. He didn't settle either, he kept tossing and tossing them started crying. I ended up rocking him to sleep. I think part of it is that I moved up the nursing in the BT routine to avoid creating a prop since I think it might have started happening. So I think the crying was a protest for the boob lol especially since he kept doing hunger cues. Anyways, he finally fell asleep at about 2 hrs A.
So my question: is it possibly that he needs a shorter A after CN or is it that he is one of those babies that still need the long A after a CN? Or did I push it too long and he was OT? I can always post my EASY for today if that helps.
In regards to he feeding I do the same thing but I try not to do it right before sleep bc I think he's staring to associate the one with the other.
Thank you again for your support!
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I wanted to add that after falling asleep after an A of 2 hrs, he woke up at: 10:45, 11;20, 12:30, and finally did a 4 hour stretch from 12:30-4:30 am.
Maybe it was OT or OS? Can't be UT could it? Needless to say he did not stay asleep.
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How did you resettle him when he woke? Did you leave him until he needed u? Or get up to him immediately?
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I would leave him for 10 minutes to see if he went back to sleep. When he wouldn't, I would intervene.
I want to add an observation: all his nw are erratic, except for the past two days he wakes up at 10 to 7. I'm wondering if this is a new WU time emerging. However, bc he goes to bed late and has had several nw he goes straight back to sleep after feeding. Is that possible?
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So are you feeding each time he wakes at night?
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Not every time only if he shows hunger cues. Sometimes he wakes up because he can't roll back over or because he seems to be practicing rolling over or something because he will move and move as though he's trying to go somewhere.
He slept longer stretches later in the night (after midnight) but before then he was waking up every 1/2 hour. He would root so I fed him but would still put him down drowsy. Do you think he's using nursing as a sleep prop?
This how yesterday went (maybe the routine was off)
WU: 10:16 am
A: (since ate at 8 am)
E: 10:49
A
S: 12:18- 1:53 (A 2hrs 2 min); self settled
E: 2:01 (both breasts)
A
E: 2:54 (one breast)
A
S: 3:55- 5:44(A 2:02); self settled; woke up at 37 minute mark crying wanting to eat. Finished nap in my arms
E: 5:51 pm
A
E 7:32
S 7:40-8:11 pm (A 1:56 woke up to finish feed)
E 8:12
A
E: 9:09
S 10:06-10:44 pm (A 1:55); wouldn't settle, cried, rocked him
E: 10:57 pm
S 11:10-11:20 pm
Resettled at 11:48
NW: 12:28 am, 4:35 am
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I would say at this age yes he's rooting out of habit not hunger. If you've fed and he wakes within 3 hours I would resettle and not feed. Same for naps. I think he's using feeding to get drowsy and when he wakes at other times he struggling to sleep without that.
So for example you fed at 2.01 then 2.54 and he had 2 then 1 breasts. Then you say he slept at 3.55 and after 37 mins woke to feed? That's only 2.5 hours since the 2pm feed and 1.5 hours since the 3pm feed. I definitely would be resettling and not feeding as there is no way he should be hungry. think you may have a snacking issue going on and I would think you need to get those feeds stretched out. I wouldnt expect a BF to go 4 hours but I would expect him to be doing at least 3 if not 3.5. Some babies show hunger signs and often tired signs when they need a change of scenery so rather than feed I would try a change of scenery or activity and feed later on. Obviously you need to stretch the feeds out so I would start with at least 2 hours between feeds and then you need to stretch further.
As yesterday he fed with these intervals:
2h49
3h10
53 mins
1h39
1 hr17
1h41
40 mins
57 mins
1h48
So you started out ok but as the day goes on he's feeding too frequently and that will affect him settling sigh needing to feed and in making sure he's taking full feeds.
Make sense?
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Definitely makes sense. I guess I was trying to follow hunger cues and blamed it on a growth spurt. Do you think I should stop doing top up feeds?
I think back and I would stop feeding when he gagged at the breast but maybe that didn't mean he was full so that may have encouraged snacking.
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I won't give any advice on feeding - I think shiv's got you covered with good advice there!
So my question: is it possibly that he needs a shorter A after CN or is it that he is one of those babies that still need the long A after a CN? Or did I push it too long and he was OT?
This is a tricky one - every LO is different so it's really a matter of watching cues. DS has a large window of opportunity for sleep and easier cues to read so it was easier to figure out his A times. DD had a smaller windows and less obvious cues so it was harder to pin down and I was missing the BT boat for quite a while - it sounds like your LO may be the same. If he gives yawns as cues, I would aim to start the WD after the first or second yawn.
DS had a lot of NWs crop up around this age at similar times to what you describe. They stuck around for a month and then went away. He took a paci so I used that to resettle the earlier NWs. I do remember reading somewhere that it's normal for an 11/12ish NW to start at this age. I know you're trying to avoid creating a nurse-to-sleep prop but it's likely ok if he nurses to sleep at NWs. Night sleep is controlled by a different part of the brain than naps so it shouldn't affect your day.
I think getting an earlier start on your day will help. LOs body clocks tend to do best when they wake for the day between 6 and 7:30 (you can likely make 8 work if that works for your family). I know it's tough to wake him when he's gone to bed so late because you want him to sleep but I think in the long run it would help. You could do it gradually as emami suggested earlier or in one go (I would be tempted to just bite the bullet and be done with it). If he wakes at 7am and feeds and goes back to sleep, I would wake him for the day at 7:45/8.
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We did an 8-8 day and it was perfectly fine. I don't like to encourage wake ups before 7/7.30 because EWs can then be ridiculously early.
I think you need to just keeping plugging away with getting A times up and spacing the feeds. Until you've a bit of consistency it will be hard to work out exactly what's going on.
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Hi!
I was wondering what it means when a baby wakes up between 50-55 minutes? Easy to settle most times, but wakes up upset.
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This is quite tricky to answer in isolation, it really all depends how your overall routine looks and what changes you are making at the time and if it's a regular thing to wake at 50 mins.
For instance mine could wake up at a time after he had transitioned to his next sleep cycle at 40 mins but before his full nap was complete, he'd be upset, crying, and I could resettle him back to sleep. He was UT for his nap. Many times we say an UT baby wakes at the end of one sleep cycle and tends to wake relatively happily but it's not always the case. This is why it helps to look at the whole routine and what LOs habits are. A 50-55 min nap *could* be due to this. But it could also be down to something else, noise, too hot, too cold, an external sound waking him, pain, habit...
It could also be his natural sleep cycle length. Tracy said sleep cycles were 40 mins long (my DS had exactly 40 mins), often on the forums we see 45 mins (possibly more so than 40 mins) but sometimes we find a LO with a 30 min sleep cycle which can really cause a confusion and I've seen a few of those over the years. It's logical that if there are some individuals with a 30 min cycle then there could also be LO with a 50 min cycle, yk?
Sorry, I know it's not the straight forward answer you might have hoped for but I hope this helps to explain why it is often difficult to look at times in isolation of the bigger picture.
xx
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Thanks for answering creations!
I figured it wouldn't be a straight answer but thought it was worth a try. I do have another post on the NW forum bc I am having issues with early evening waking a and bedtime.
Anyways, I have just pushed the A time to 2 hours for my LO (he's 16 weeks), it's been a couple of days now. Over the weekend, the routine was very loose due to visiting family so he took crappy naps yesterday. However, he slept 9 1/2 hrs straight last night but did still have early NW. All this to say that I'm guessing it's OT?
Funny thing is that his cycle was always 43-45 minutes. Is it possible that it changes as baby gets older?
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Thank you ladies!
We were away for the last two days so I was following the routine VERY loosely. Good news though, he slept 91/2 hours straight last night!! Of course he didn't finally fall asleep until around 11:30 but I'm hopeful that it will get better. I started stretching out feeds a bit and making sure he takes a full feed before BT. I used to just let him be asleep if he fell asleep but now I wake him up to finish then sing to him rather falling asleep on the breast.
His naps are doing better. Although I'm still having to resettle at times, but it is not difficult and I am not feeding him in between sleep cycles.
I will keep you posted on whether A times will help the bedtime issue bc bedtime is still a disaster.
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That's a good update :) If he's resettling easily I would take it as a sign that you're on the right track for A times.
I think between establishing an earlier WU and extending your A times, BT should improve.
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I do hope so! Tonight was the same at bedtime. Actually still trying to make him fall asleep. I tried for 1.5 A right after CN bc he was yawning and fussy. I did his bath and bedtime routine which took 1/2 hr...he woke up 35 minutes later. Do you think his A May have been too long or too short? This is all so confusing.
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Hope you'd a lovely time away!
Resettling is not uncommon when you first move up A times and think about all the changes he is going through with not being fed. It will take a while for him to resettle himself. When you're resettling how long are naps. I had to resettle naps at 4/5 months for ages. I used to run in at 35 mins and stick a dummy in then ssh pat for a minute and then she'd make it through the transition.
Can you describe your nap routine? How awake is he going down. Is there a feed in the 10 mins before a nap?
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his cycle was always 43-45 minutes. Is it possible that it changes as baby gets older?
I think in Tracy's book she mentions that the cycle begins to lengthen at 6 months. I didn't see that in my LO and generally haven't seen it amongst the threads either really, not until 1yo. There are several sleep sites/info sources that say by 1yo an infant's sleep cycle is similar to that of an adult.
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Hi Shiv!
Yes we had a great time visiting family 😃
As for the resettling, usually he can sleep about 1.5-1.75 after being resettled. Sometimes resettling can be as easy as helping him roll over or giving him a quick jiggle then he's back to sleep; at most it can take 10 minutes when he is OT.
Usually about a half hour before nap time I switch to low key so it can be reading a book, sitting and playing with hands, or looking at a toy. Then, 15 minutes before, I start walking around with him to get him drowsy then go to the bedroom and shutting blinds, white noise, put him zippy, rock him for a second until he's calm (zippy makes him excited). By that time he fusses to lay him down. He rolls over and sucks on his zippy and falls asleep.
I usually feed him 30-45 minutes before the nap.
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Hmmmm that's interesting maybe he was uncomfortable then...
Question: what do I do with A when baby takes UT nap? My baby just passed out (granted he didn't have the best night) a half hour before his A time ends. I have to wake him up to get the laundry so it will definitely resort to a short nap. He does 2 hrs but fell asleep cold at 1.5. Do I shorten next A to avoid an OT nap?
Thank you!
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Sounds good lovely. I think it will just take a bit for things to fall into place and once you've the A time pushed and feedings separated you probably want to reduce the rocking a bit so he's going down a bit more awake so a couple of minutes off rocking as opposed to 15 but for now if that's working it is fab. You are much further on than I thought where independent sleep in concerned so well done you guys!!!!
How is the 2 hour A time working out? Do you think it is enough? Too much? What are you thinking about bedtime and wake up?
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Just to let you know I saw your naps post and I've merged it here so all your info is in one place as I do think your naps and NWs are all routine related so it's better to have it in one place.
To answer your question depending on how long he slept you would shorten the A time a bit but when trying to establish a new A time there will be an element of OT and it's important to keep aiming for 2 hours as much as possible.
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Thanks Shiv! I appreciate it ;D Wasn't sure to post the nap question here but of course I like it all in one place since as you said it is routine related.
Yes I'm so happy my LO is learning independent sleep. Naps are no problem; it seems as though the zippy has helped him learn this skill as well as me attempting to give him more space to self soothe. He's been in the zippy since two months. Anyways, I agree with the rocking dwindling as time goes on.
Even though he self settles for naps, lately it's been hard at bedtime. It seems OT is the culprit as he wakes up 30 later crying or just really fussy. Then I'll put him down again and the same thing. Last night he finally fell asleep at around 11 and slept around 7 hrs straight so the NW have improved, yay!!
I think the A time is working pretty well although as I mentioned he will wake up at 50-55 minutes crying so I'm assuming it's OT? Which could be him still adjusting to 2 hrs A. Part of me thinks he may be able to handle more but I rather wait to see if his naps improve on 2 hrs.
I think for today I won't shorten A after the last nap bc I'm afraid of another UT nap. He napped for 40 minutes on his own. Would this be the right approach.
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Question: if LO takes a full nap instead of a CN for last nap, is it typical they won't go to sleep despite doing a full A time of 2 hrs?
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tried for 1.5 A right after CN bc he was yawning and fussy. I did his bath and bedtime routine which took 1/2 hr...he woke up 35 minutes later. Do you think his A May have been too long or too short?
This jumped out at me. If you started bath and bedtime routine after he yawned, he was likely OT by the time you got him to bed. If he's yawning, I would skip the bath and get him straight to bed.
When A times are changing I generally just watch for sleep cues and do the next nap whenever LO yawns. DS often surprised me by being able to do a nearly full A time after a short nap.
Like many things, it's hard to say if he'd need a full A after a full nap instead of a CN. My DD would have needed more A whereas DS would have just gone down at his normal time. If he had a full nap because his earlier naps were shorter he was probably catching up a bit and may still go down after a shorter A time. I would just watch for cues and be ready to get him to bed as soon as he yawns.
How are you doing with WU? Are you moving it earlier?
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Hi Jillian!
Thanks for responding. Well today was a difficult day. He didn't settle for naps and I'm still trying to get him to go to bed. I put him to bed at 8 (after 2 hrs A since his last nap was a full one) but he woke up 50 minutes later. Hasn't slept since. He's definitely OT since he keeps crying upon waking and is hyper.
I havr been gradually getting him up. Hrs at 9 am right now but after tonight I think I just want to do it cold turkey and have a day of OT if it means no more super late bedtimes. I'm exhausted and honestly want my evenings back. I'm trying to figure out if I should do a 8 am WU or just wake him up when he first gets up which is usually around 6:30-7 am. I would have him go back to sleep bc he would fall asleep so late. Do you think this is ok?
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Personally I'd just start getting him up at 8am and be consistent for 4/5 days and see where you are at.
So something like
8am wake up
10am nap
11.30 wake up
2.30pm nap
4pm wake up
6pm CN
6.30pm wake up
8pm BEd
When establishing a new routine it is ideal to not cut A times too much and push through but obviously not to a silly extent.
What do you think?
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Sounds good...question: you have the second nap at 2:30 when wake up is at 11:30 did you mean 1:30? Bc that would give him an A of 3 hrs. Sorry I just need to clarify so bedtime would be pushed up to 7?
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Sorry yes 1.30. Ah that makes bedtime trickier. The hope is obviously that you get longer naps than 1.5 hours to push the day out. You could make the CN 40/45 minutes. I don't think I'd aim for a day shorter than 12 hours TBH.
What is usual nap length. Do you think you'll get longer than 1.5?
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Ohhhhh ok yes that makes sense. Sometimes his naps can go to 1.75 but other times it's only 1hr 15 or 1hr 20. And of course that's after resettling at times.
I could play it by ear to make sure he does 12 he says. I can definitely aim for a shorter A to bed like 1.5 since I realized he has been going down OT. I also wonder if he is needs an earlier routine bc perhaps internally he can't make it to 8 without OT...I read that somewhere. Do you think that's a possibikity?
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I'm sorry forgot to ask: what can I do to stretch out the day if the naps don't exceed 1.5 bc even with a 45 minute CN it still won't be enough to make bedtime at 8...
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I just want to do it cold turkey and have a day of OT if it means no more super late bedtimes. I'm exhausted and honestly want my evenings back. I'm trying to figure out if I should do a 8 am WU or just wake him up when he first gets up which is usually around 6:30-7 am. I would have him go back to sleep bc he would fall asleep so late. Do you think this is ok
I get wanting your evenings back. Tough BTs are even harder to take when it's late. It really depends on when you want your day to start. I'm an early bird so 630/7 would be fine with me (and I love a 630 BT :)) but if an 8-8 days fits your family better, I would aim for that. I would think it would be fine to just start waking him at 8 and then just watch for cues for the first nap (he may not make the full A time because of the shortened night). I found both of mine would do a longer nap if they were tired in the morning to putting them down early didn't really throw off the day.
I also wonder if he is needs an earlier routine bc perhaps internally he can't make it to 8 without OT...I read that somewhere. Do you think that's a possibikity
I have read this too. Many sleep experts do recommend a BT of 6:30/7 (usually 8 at the latest) but there's BWers on here (Shiv included) who have had good 8-8 routines. Like most things, it depends on the kid.
what can I do to stretch out the day if the naps don't exceed 1.5 bc even with a 45 minute CN it still won't be enough to make bedtime at 8...
Then BT would be earlier and hopefully he would catch up overnight.
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Thanks so much Jillian!
I have great news! Finally, last night he went to sleep at 8:30 p.m. I had to hold him through the initial jolts as he was a bit OT from the las nap (A ran a little longer). After that he woke up at 10:30pm for a feed then straight back to sleep until around 2:30 am!! He then slept until 8...I'm hopeful that we will be getting back on track after a month of bad bedtimes and too many NW. So he went from 5-6 NW to only 2!!!
I will continue to work on the 8-8 routine with 2hrs A and see how that goes. It looks like tonight will be a earlier bedtime since he technically woke up at 7:50 am bright eyed and bushy tailed lol
Will keep you all posted in the next couple of days...
His morning nap seems to be great at 2 hrs A..afternoon naps still suffer a bit (wakes up around 35-45 minutes and i resettle in my arms (he usually self-settles in the beginning), but I have hear that the morning nap usually gets established first...does that sound about right?
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Yes once you get your first nap sorted the rest tend to fall into place. I would try not cut the day short too much as I think it's unrealistic that babies do more than 12 hours and most don't make up unless they've had a lot of A time. In a week or two he'll likely need another 15 mins so the day will naturally get longer.
Awesome about last night!!! You must feel amazing after all that hard work xx
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Thank Shiv! I definitely feel amazing and hoping this is the beginning a earlier bedtime for my night owl 😁
Yes I try to make sure he does at least 1.5 nap even if it means I help him transition or I let him finish his nap on me. I do have a question: during his afternoon nap he cries mid nap (35-50 minutes). As I said he doesn't usually have this issue anymore with the morning nap. The A times are pretty much the name and I do the same routine. Why do you think that is?
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It's hard to know. Could be a little OT or just again him still learning to transition. If you can get the nap extended I really wouldn't worry too much at the minute. A little bit of OT is inevitable when you're increasing A times and working on wake up times.
Hope you get a decent night tonight. And I also hope you are giving yourself a big pat on the back as it's your hard work that is coming together for you and your little guy xx
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Yay for a way better night!
but I have hear that the morning nap usually gets established first...does that sound about right?
Yes it does!
And I also hope you are giving yourself a big pat on the back as it's your hard work that is coming together for you and your little guy xx
^This :)
I would try not cut the day short too much as I think it's unrealistic that babies do more than 12 hours and most don't make up unless they've had a lot of A time.
This really depends on the LO. DD rarely did 12 hour nights (let alone more) but I could regularly put DS down after an 11/11.5 hr day and he would sleep 13 hours. I would just observe your LO and see if he adds on to his night sleep after a short nap day that way you'll know how early you can do BT if he hasn't napped much. If he has napped decently well, I agree with Shiv to keep aiming for a 12 hr day so I would aim for a 7:45/8 BT tonight.
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Ladies thank you!
Well tonight was a bit hard. He fell asleep too early for his CN. I tried to keep him awake but he passed out after feeding. The A was only 1.5 and he slept for 50 minutes. So I tried to cut his A shorter since his nap was shorter than an hour. It made his bedtime 7 rather than 7:45-8 which was the original plan. Well that was all a huge mistake because he was NOT tired enough to stay asleep. He kept waking up every 1 until just now (midnight) where it would seem he's down for the night. I will be waking him up at 8 regardless. My question is, and I'm sorry if we covered this, what should have I done in this situation? (in case it happens again which I'm hoping it won't).
I will be looking out for cues for the first A, it's hard bc he still shows cues at 1.5-1.45 but I don't put him down bc it has led to UT nap before. Reading his cues is confusing!
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Oh and yes patting myself on the back for working hard in improving sleep for my LO. Despite the setback, I am very happy that we are making progress!
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BW is obviously very much about watching for cues but when you are pushing a new A time for those first few days you push you try to get as close to A time. In BW solves all your problems Tracey writes a great chapter on establishing a new routine and how you push the A time and then go back to reading cues. Do you have that book so I do think you should push that first A time. If he starts showing tired cues then change the scenery, go for a walk in the garden and just see does that help him extend.
How did the rest of the night go?
Can you post the whole day yesterday? Just so I can see what I may have done differently?
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Hi Shiv!
Well last night didn't go so great. I think I know what I could have done differently but I know I could use some BW insight and wisdom.
Here's the routine from yesterday:
NW: 10:25, 2:23
WU: 7:50 am
E: 8am
A
E 9:14 am
A
S 9:46- 11:18 am (A 1:56); self settled
E 11:25 am
A
E 12:35 pm
A
S 1:12- 3:10 pm (A 1:54); self settled; woke up at 47 minutes crying finished nap in my arms
E 3:27 pm
A
E 4:30 pm
S 4:45 pm-5:37 (A 1:35; tried to keep him awake but knocked out)
E 5:48 pm
A
E 6:54 pm
S 7:04 pm
Woke up at around 8; didn't go back to sleep until 9. Then woke up at 10:30 and didn't go back to sleep until almost midnight. It was rough trying to get him to settle. I had to APOP it finally. He had gotten to the crying point by then.
I think he was UT from too much day sleep but I could be wrong. He did not have any other NW after that.
I don't have have that book...I have the first book. I'm thinking of getting the BW Solves All Your Problems to gain more insight. Of course I get GREAT insight in this forum!
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I'm not sure if it's too much day sleep or just not enough A time but I do think you are right and he was UT.
I do wonder about those feedings though. I think if you hadn't have fed at 4.30pm you'd have been able to stretch that A time. I imagine the feedings before the naps can make him drowsy and he's all snuggled.
When you say he woke at 47 minutes crying and finished the nap which was nearly 2 hours in your arms? Did you hold him the whole time? Or did you manage to get him back down?
How has today been?
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Hi there!
I think our LO's are close in age. I haven't read everything but just wanted to share that my DD cannot have a long CN, I need to keep it under 30 minutes and then she needs at least 2h of A Time before Bt (we've had up to 2h30 for this last A).
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Hi Shiv!
Yes I thought about maybe the A not being long enough after the nap especially since it went longer than 45 minutes. I agree about the feeds. Thankfully today I spaced out the feeds enough where it didn't cut A time or lead to napping.
Yes I was able to eventually put him down but he did sleep a good amount of time in my arms.
Today went better. He had two 1.5 naps. The morning there was no need to resettle and the afternoon all I had to do was help him turn over (he was still asleep) and that was it. A big success since he always woke up mid nap during the afternoon!
He just took a CN of 35 minutes. He's been on a 2 hr A time all day with no issues. Now the tricky part will be BT.
Hi Enms: I was considering that his CN can't be too long as well. Could be needing long A to bed but it's hard to tell.
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Ahhhh so I think I did the same basic thing with my routine as yesterday and now find myself with a wired LO!! I think my A was still not long enough.
WU: 9:06 am
E 9:16
A
E 10:10
A
S 11:05-12:32 pm (A 1:59); self settled took 7 minutes
A
E 1:09 pm
A
S 2:28- 4:08 pm(A 1:56) self settled
E 4:18 pm
A
E 5:38 pm
S 6-6:36 pm (A 1:52)
A
E 7:09
A Bedtime Routine
S 8:22-9:16 pm (A 1:46)
E
And still up!!!! It's almost 10:30 and he is wired! He only had a 35 minute CN. Is it possible he is still UT?
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I think given his wake up was after 9am he treated the 8.30 bedtime as a nap. What is your gut on the length of night he needs? I know some LOs do 12 hours or more. My DD1 only ever did 11/11.5 and I had to base her day length accordingly. She seemed to prefer the longer day and if I tried to shorten it we had more NWs. It was like she was making up for lost A time in the night that she didn't get in the day.
Great news on the naps though!!!!
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Hi Shiv!!
Thanks for responding. I'm just getting lost on this whole bedtime thing. I am really happy about the naps though; so much progress. I have noticed my LO does about 11 hours of sleep when I added the hours up (not including) NW. I just don't know how to stretch the day without causing him to have a super late BT. I don't mind having a longer than 12 hr day I'm just not sure how that would look.
Do you know how I can begin to do that? His naps never exceed 1hr 43 minutes and his CN range from 35-45 minutes. His A is still 2 hrs. Maybe if I extend the A after the CN? I'm not sure if his ENW are UT or OT or a mix of both.
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chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months
4 hour EASY
2 hour A time
two-2 hour naps + one catnap
Total daytime sleep: 4 hr. 40 min.
Total nighttime sleep: 10 hrs. 45 min to 11 hrs. 15 min.)
Here is Joey's schedule at 14 weeks. I don't wake him unless I'm protecting his third catnap or bedtime. I also don't do a DF.
wake up anywhere from 7-7:30 but I try to not feed until 7:30
E 7:30
A
S 9:20-11:30
E 11:30
A
S 1:30-3:30
E 3:30
A
S 5:30-6:00
E 7:00
A Bath
E 7:45ish (just an ounce or two to make sure he goes to sleep not hungry)
S 8:15 p.m. asleep
This is just an example from the above link. Would something like this work? If you took into account you don't get 2 hours naps you could get a 12 hour day or slightly over. It does seem some babies still need a decent A time after their CN to be tired enough to sleep and I guess if you did 45 mins which is for most a full sleep cycle you may well have him manage 1.45/2 hours after?
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Yes it's definitely worth a try!
My guess is my LO needs a decent A; maybe even a full blown 2 hrs A. After studying his records, I realize that last nights sleep after a 1.75 A resulted in a 50 minute nap; other nights it seems to be the same pattern more or less. Although he woke up because I moved him, I'm also guessing we wasn't tired enough because he stayed awake for his full A afterwards then went to sleep. Even though he briefly woke up around 11, I still think it started with a UT sleep at BT then resulted in OT because he didn't sleep enough and did a full A. That's my current hypothesis lol
I was planning to do close to a 2 hr A after my CN and see how it goes. At this point, I will try anything. I figured OT is better than UT.
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Let me know how you get on today x
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Hi Shiv,
Well last night was the same thing. He only slept a total of 8 1/2 hours. Both days o couldn't get him up at 8 because he's so tired. Is he going to be chronically fatigued? What are some tips on waking him up?
This was yesterday's EASY
NW 1:54; 5:34
WU: 9:18 am
E 9:29
A
E 10:33 am
A
S 11:20- 12:59 pm (A 2:02); self settle
A
E 1:20 pm
A
E 2:30 pm
A
S 3:01- 4:42 pm (A 2:02) self settle; woke up crying at 36 minutes resettled; possible OS
E 5:02 pm
A
E 5:50 pm
A
S 6:51- 7:33 pm (A 2:09) rocked bc wouldn't settle
A
E 8:07 pm
A including BT routine and top off feed
S 9:37-10:11 (A 2:04); wouldn't self settle; was crying with Aaron so worked up.
Stayed up and nursed more until 12:09 am; very hyper and irritable. Then woke up at 5:39 and went back to sleep around 6 OT?
Because he slept a broken 8 1/2 hours; how do I approach BT? I'm planning on still keeping A the same since I'm pushing it. Is this the right move?
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Hey lovely. It's my little girls bday and we've been out and out all day between bday party and seeing family and I am beat and headed to bed. I'll be on in the morning to have a good look.
How's today been? Xxxxx
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Hi Shiv!!
Happy birthday to your little girl! I'm sure she is enjoying every bit of it ;D
Well so far today has been ok. He hit 4 months today and I think is going through a growth spurt which would make sense considering his behavior in the last couple of days. Anyways today his morning nap was golden. No resettling and slept 1.5 hrs. Also he woke up at 8 am finally!! His afternoon nap which I am actually holding him as I type, was ok but he woke up at 43 minutes so I had to eventually resettle him as he was growing agitated in trying to resettle himself. As usual he self settles for naps.
Last night he went to bed earlier (8:30 pm) but woke up every 1.5 hrs wanting to eat. I have been working on separating nursing from sleep which has been going well. I changed up my BT routine to separate nursing. Unfortunately, he is having a hard time still with self settling to sleep. I feel like the A times are still not right. I had to hold him through all the jolts from 8:30-11. Finally at 11 he fell into a deep sleep until around 4 am then went back to sleep waking up at 8 am for the day. Here's the EASY from yesterday. I am wondering if he needs longer As already or is he just OT by the end of the day or is this a sleep regression I'm dealing with. Hmmmm so many questions lol
Whenever you can, if you can take a look and let me know what you think.
Yesterday's:
NW 5:37 am (ate) went back to sleep around 6
WU: 9:07 am
A
E 9:48 am
A
S 10:59- 12:34 pm (A 1:52); self settle
A
E 1:13 pm
A
S 2:38- 4:10 pm(A 2:04; should have brought him to room sooner. Couldn't settle had to rock him; woke up at 34 minutes rocked him again)
E 4:20 pm
A
E 5:30 pm
A
S 6-:11- 6:53 pm (A 2:01)
E 7:06 pm
A Bath and Bedtime routine
E 7:57 pm
S 8:28 pm (A 1:33)
Today's (so far):
NW 9:54 pm, 11:42 pm, 3:54 am
WU: 8:08 am
E 8:24 am
A
E 9:39 am
A
S 10:08-11:37 (A 2hrs); self settle
E 11:56 am
A
E 1:10 pm
A
S 1:38- (A 2:01); self settle; woke up at 43 minutes crying trying to resettle himself; after waiting for 5-10 minutes; I resettled him
Thank you again!!
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Hello!!!
So he seems to be doing well overall. Although he's waking after bedtime he seems a little bit easier to settle? I think you are right that he could have hit a growth spurt. Both mine had huge 4 month GS.
Typically a 43 minute nap would be UT but seeing as you got him resettled he could have been slightly OT maybe just with the shorter night? Or like the first nap it could be as simple as him needing a bit of help resettling and them he will start extending on his own.
I think keeping on being consistent is the key. I wouldn't want to see that first nap get any shorter than 1.5 and if so he may well meed another 10 minutes A time.
How has he been with your DH? Has he been able to do bedtimes yet?
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Hi Shiv!!
I hope you and your family enjoyed the birthday weekend ;D
The other night he was a bit easier to resettle but last night we had the same issue with him staying awake for an hour or so between 10-11. Of course I attribute it to not enough A before his CN (we were out), growth spurt, and maybe too long of A after CN.
I do think it's the GS influencing unsettling at bedtime because I noticed that he wanted to sleep. He kept wanting me to lay him down but he would toss and turn trying to get to sleep. However, he would work himself up so much. So far the morning nap is good and consistent (no resettling), afternoon nap I still have to resettle. Also last night he was waking up every 2-3 hours in the middle of the night wanting to eat. usually despite the ENW he goes the rest of the night without waking.
I agree consistency is key; however, I am still trying to figure out the right A after the CN. Also I'm thinking of gradually making his WU 7:30 am.
DH has tried to do bedtime but LO is more difficult with him.
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If it's a GS then it should pass in a few days. Do you think he's UT or OT at bedtime. The fact he's struggling but wants to sleep seems like he might just be a little OT.
How was last night? X
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Good morning Shiv!
I am hoping it's a GS bc then that would mean there is an end in sight ;D
I do think it's OT since he struggles, fusses, and wakes up right away. I tried a 2 hr A last night and that didn't work at all. He woke up 50 minutes later, hyper and stayed up for another 1hr and a half which I believe was the start of the downward spiral. He wouldn't settle and finally I had to APOP it with some rocking and singing as well as comfort nursing because he was screaming crying by that point. We definitely went a little backwards. He kept waking up after jolts so I had to keep holding him until finally he fell asleep at midnight. He is slept for 8 1/2 hrs straight. The good news is that no NW. He did start crying sometime this morning but he resettled himself.
He settled himself for all naps but bedtime is always the issue.
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Question: if LO wakes up 50 minutes after bedtime does that mean he's still OT? I reduced the A after the CN to 1.5 hours bc anything more and LO would wake up afterwards then stay up for a large chunk of time.
Does he just need time to adjust or perhaps an earlier BT? Or do I do longer A? I have been doing a 2 hr A for two weeks. My morning nap is established, the afternoon he wakes up mid-nap then quickly resettled; BT is a mess.
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I wonder should you do the shorter A time after the CN or will that make your day too short?
Do you think he needs more help settling for bed? So help him get really drowsy to see if that helps the accumulation of OT and help him settle easier and then work on getting him more independent.
How long are your naps at present? Are they staying at least 1.5?
Hugs xxxx
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Hi Shiv!
I don't mind doing a shorter A...how much should I do it by 5, 10, 15 minutes?
This morning he had a really short A since he was tired of the broken night. I tried to keep him up but he couldn't. He still slept for 1.5. The rest of the day he has been on 2 hrs A
Yes his morning nap is usually 1.5-1.75 hr long and no resettling. His afternoon nap he tends to wake up mid nap and I help him resettle. Which takes less than 10 minutes then he sleeps from 1.5-1.75 as well. CN are 35-45 minutes (I don't really regulate it).
So would the day look like this?
WU: 8 am
E
A
S 10-11:45
E
A
S 1:45-3:30
E
A
S 5:30-6/6:15
E
A
S 7:15/7:30
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I agree that shortening the A time after the CN is worth a shot. In hindsight, DD was always OT by BT because that last A was too long and I would "shorten" it but usually only by 5-15 minutes which wasn't enough to make a difference. I would shorten it by at least 15 minutes to see what happens. I also agree that a longer WD may help.
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Hi Jillian!
I think he really does need a shorter A; I will try for 1.25 instead of 1.5. Last night he went to 1.5 A and it didn't go well. I had to hold him through the jolts, he was crying, couldn't settle. He also had 4 NW; he has been doing 2-3 in the last couple of weeks. I think I also made the mistake of allowing the TV to be on while I ate real quick (DH) wasn't home. Perhaps it was too stimulating right before bed. We also rushed wind down bc I didn't want to pass the window.
Today he gets his 4 months shots so we will see how he reacts to them. :-\
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Have you ruled out discomfort?
I remember reading somewhere when I was researching food sensitivities for my DD that if LO is unsettled at the same time everyday it could be related to something you eat that then goes through your milk (are you BF?)
Something like your morning coffee or something you eat every day for breakfast or lunch could be to blame?
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TV was always too much for my DD (although DH never believed me ::)). I was also guilty of waiting too long to start WD and then rushing it and it then made BT harder. He may have built a bit of a sleep deficit and just needs that short A to help him catch up on lost sleep.
4 month shots didn't bother DS at all but really knocked DD for a loop. I hope they don't bother your boy too much. If they do, just try to roll with what he throws at you and I would leave him sleeping if he's going for a long nap - those little bodies need extra rest after needles.
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Hi Elise!
There is nothing I eat everyday. I know I had to cut down on dairy bc it would give him terrible gas. I try to burp him after every feed. At this point anything is possible.
I also think it may be a growth spurt bc he's definitely been eating more and is irritable. He's also learning to roll more.
Hi Jillian!
I think my LO is like your DD. He can get wound up pretty easily and harder to wind down. For naps I need to switch gears a half hour before so that he can settle himself to sleep. I think you are right about the sleep deficit. Last night he got 11 hrs of broken sleep so it's definitely carrying over to today. So with a shorten A after CN, will it be a shorten day? His usual wake up is 8 am but BT would be 7:15-7:30 pm
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I wanted to update that I tried a 1hr 15 min A and he wouldn't settle. He finally went to sleep at 1:20 after nursing. However, he woke up after 35 minutes ahhhhhhh!!! He was totally fine waking up but when I rocked him to sleep he was crying and I'm still trying to rock him bc he's in and out. I don't know what to do anymore. I'm feeling pretty discouraged. It's been like this for weeks and I feel like whatever I do it leads to the same issue!
Any thoughts? Here's my easy from today so far:
NW: 9:19, 10:28-11:32; 2:52 am, 6:17 am
WU: 8:12 pm
A
E 8:45 am
A
S 10:11- 11:40 am (A 1:59); self settle
E 11:51 am
A
E 1:31 pm
S 1:36- 3:06 (A 1:56) asleep on me
E 3:06
A
E 4:28 pm
A
S 5:02- 5:38 pm(1:56); self settle
E 5:41 pm
A Bath and Bedtime Routine
E 6:24 pm
S 6:58- 7:32 pm
S 7:44-8:47 pm
NW: 8:47-10:38 pm, 11:29, 2:54, 4:32-5:41 (woke up choking and took awhile to resettle)
Woke up at 7:41 am to eat then went back to sleep and woke up at 8:30. He was so tired he only made it to 1:20 A which in turn napped short (42 minutes where I resorted to rocking to get him back to sleep). His morning naps have been solid for a couple of weeks so today was a first in a bit where I needed to resettle. Needless to say a disastrous 24 hours haha.
I am thoroughly convinced this is a growth spurt/sleep regression. I am desperate to hear thoughts on how to survive this. I'm trying so hard to encourage independent sleep but bedtime is very sketchy.
Thanks in advance!!
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I have no great ideas for things to try with BT today. Sorry.
I am desperate to hear thoughts on how to survive this.
^I think this is key. Try to remember that it's just sleep. There's so much more to raising a baby (love, play, feeding) so try not focus only on sleep. It will get better. It felt like forever when I was in it with my DD but by 7/8 months, BT got much easier.
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I agree Jillian and thank you!
After that night (I was really upset) I decided to do what I can to have him sleep and not focus so much on a perfect bedtime. His sleep has dwindled to waking every hour or so with few 2-3 hr chunks. So I'm focusing more on cues. I know now it's a growth spurt and sleep regression as his behavior, eating, and sleeping matches up. Anyways, after I posted that I realized I just have to go into survival mode until this passes. Of course if anyone has tips I would love to hear it.
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Anyways, after I posted that I realized I just have to go into survival mode until this passes.
Sometimes that's all we can do.
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Yes very true...
I do have two questions:
After a bad night of sleep like really bad, should I still wake up at normal wake up or should I just let my LO sleep in? Do I shorten A for the rest of the day to avoid accumulating more OT?
How do I know if A throughout the day needs to be extended?
Thank you again!
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I would let him sleep on a bit. EASY is a routine not a schedule so it can be adapted and you can start your normal A time when he's up.
You'd know if you need an A time increase by naps shortening, difficulty settling for naps and lots of NWs is another one.
How is he handling the 2 hours? Easily or struggling? If easily it may be worth adding 10 minutes and seeing how he does. Would help push the day out a bit too.
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Hi Shiv!
Ok I can definitely let him sleep in a bit and work on getting back to an earlier wake up when NW lessen a bit more. Last night lots of ENW but after 1am it has been 3 hr chunks.
I think he can use a push. He does 2 hrs easily even though around the 1.75 mark he gets fussy but then again it could just be wanting a change of scenery. I noticed his naps are slowly getting shorter. Not by much but where you used to take 1.5-175 now it's 1.25. He is also having a hard time settling for naps so it makes me wonder if he's just not tired enough. Yesterday he pushed out his A himself in the afternoon. He was not sleepy. I can try his first A and see how it goes.
Should I push out all A times or just the first one?
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I'd push out the first by 15 minutes. I know I said 10 but reading your description I think he does need a push. If you get a decent so more than 1.5 I'd do 2h15 again and maybe 2 the next time. You may need to resettle then naps slightly but don't worry about that.
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Thank you!
Ok that makes sense. So if he takes less than 1.5 for the first nap, let's say 1hr 20 then do I keep second A at 2hrs and not 2:15? Also you mean keep the A at 2hr before the CN correct? What would you recommend as a starting point for A after CN?
Sorry for so many questions, I do find this very helpful
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Yes stick to 2 hours if nap is less than 1.5.
So first A-2.15
Nap
Then nap more than 1.5: 2.15 A time
Nap less than 1.5: 2 hours A time
And so on
After the CN Id probably do 1.15/1.30 but depends. Remind me how long you do the CN for?
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Ok yes that's great stuff!
He usually sleeps from 30-40; sometimes (rarely) 45 minutes.
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So maybe aim at starting winddown about 1.15/1.20 with the hope he's asleep by 1.30 or shortly after?
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Yes I can definitely try that! And let you know how it goes with the new A times :D
I imagine that when the two morning and afternoon naps lengthen then I push the A before CN to 2:15 as well...correct?
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Yep and again if by a miracle you get longer naps for both today then go ahead and push the A time before the CN now xx
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Ok great! Thank you so much!
Sorry one more question: if LO sleeps less than 10 hrs cumulative, like 7 or 8 (that's what he slept last night), should I carry on with normal A times? I know he should get more but he sprung up wide awake. So in wondering in instances like this how should I carry on.
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Yeah I would otherwise you'll get into a vicious cycle of short a times to make up for lost night sleep and then crappy nights as hasn't had enough A time and so on xx
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Very true!
Ok I will give all these suggestions a try for the next couple of days. I tried extending to 2:15 today but he still woke after a nap of 1:15; perhaps he just needs a couple of days for the nap to lengthen.
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Yesterday he managed to transition just fine during his first morning nap after 2:15 A. However today for naps he woke up at about the 35 mark and I had to resettle for both naps (morning was after 2:15 A and afternoon was about 2 hrs A)The last two days for his first nap he needed help settling rather than the usual self soothing. Is this for me pushing the A? I'm just wondering if I'm on the right track.
Also is it normal during a growth spurt that he wants a shorter A?
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How have his nights been?
How'd today go?
A little OT is inevitable when pushing A times and it will take a few days to see if it's going to work xx
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Hi Shiv!
Nights have gotten slightly better. He went from 6 NW to 3 🎉🎉 however, he still is waking up 35-45 minutes after bedtime. He is also still up for an hour or so until he finally goes to bed at 11-12. I figure it may take a couple of night to adjust.
I have been having a hard time keeping him up for the first A. Yesterday he made it to 2:10 but couldn't settle so I had to give him a jiggle then today only made it until 2:05. Is that normal in terms of having trouble settling?
I also was wondering if it's normal for a 19 week old to only sleep 10-11 hours at night (not including NW). How do I accommodate the routine for shorter night sleep if it is normal?
Thanks again!
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Yeah hes maybe finding the increase difficult after the shorter night. How long did he nap for?
I'd say at 19 weeks 11 hours is probably ok but you'd be needing two longer naps and a longer CN to make up the day. 10 hours I'd think is too short with the napping he's doing.
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Well yesterday he only did 2:03 A and slept for 1 hr and 16 minutes so definitely under tired. The great news is today he just about made 2:15 and slept for 1.75!! He needed slight resettling in his sleep which took two seconds. So needless to say I am on the right track. However, we were out and he took a short UT nap in the stroller at like 1.75 A. So now I'm just keeping him up for the 2 hrs and hope for another shorter nap and push up bedtime.
I think as we have said before the NW are linked to UT as well as developmental. He did sleep 11 hours collectively last night but also had 3 ENW before midnight. The good news is he self settled at bedtime at an A of 1.5 so I'm thinking that might be suitable for him. Hopefully it will work out tonight. This weekend will be all over the place in terms of naps since we are traveling to family and my mother will be babysitting while I attend an event.
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The good news is he self settled at bedtime at an A of 1.5 so I'm thinking that might be suitable for him.
That's great!
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Thanks Jillian!
Well early night wakings and fighting bedtime is still a thing. He is still waking then staying awake for a full A. I wanted to know what is to be done with LO when he is now wanting to practice rolling instead of going or staying to sleep? lol of its not one thing it's another. ::)
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It depends. Some people leave them to work it out. I could do that with my DD2. My DD1 no way. I needed to just stay in and put my hand on her when she started so she knew if was sleepy time and then just faded it. Otherwise she got wayyyyyyy OT. So it does depend on the LO.
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Thanks Shiv!
I realize more and more LO is sensitive to OT so I try to have him practice during the day. Sleep has improved 👏🏼
I still have a fight at bedtime but I will give it a few more days and then maybe reevaluate what I should do. I am still doing 2:15 A but will do it for a few more days to see if naps lengthen and bedtime improves. We are very loosely following bc we are away.
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Enjoy being away!! Am really glad things have improved. Go you!
Hugs xx
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Thanks Shiv! It's a much needed time away.
The little guy is battling a cold and/or tweeting so his sleep and eating are all over the place since yesterday. I'll be back to probably get some advice on getting back on track lol
Last night he was up every 2-3 hours unable to settle for sleep and crying. He woke up at around 10:30 today! He only feeds a little at a time and pulls off a lot. We were finally spacing feeds out. Or maybe he's ready for 3.5 spacing? I feed him 2-3 hours.
Any suggestions on how to shorten the day so he can still do an earlier bedtime tonight? I felt bad waking him up.
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Hi I'm posting this question here since it's all related:
I have been doing 2.25 A times for a week and a half. I have had longer AM naps at first but now they are shortening again. Unless he has had many wakings (more than 3) then he gets a good nap. He is now 20 wks should I stick to current A for another week to see? I realized he is back to waking up every 2-3 hours and short napped his AM nap and fought me when attempting to resettle.
Just wondering when I should think about an increase.
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At 20 weeks babies generally do anywhere from 2-2.30 A time so it wouldn't be ridiculous if he needed a bit more. I always found if mine were OT I could resettle a nap but if UT there was no chance.
Have the NWs gotten worse again?
On feeding I would definitely feed No less than 3 hours since the last feed and he likely does need a push to 3.5 to encourage good full feeds and not snacking.
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I agree...UT is always hard if not impossible. I managed to resettle but it took awhile bc he was wide awake. For his second nap he was cranky and would not self settle but that could be bc I didn't do enough of a wind down and his first nap was broken so could have been residual from that.
Yes NW have increased to about 4 ranging from 1-4 Hrs apart. We had a couple of days where it seemed that we were getting back on track as he was doing 5-8 hr stretches. Not sure of its a growth spurt, wonder week, possible teething, or needing an increase A lol
I realize my LO seems to be on the higher end of A times so he may need a push in A. I don't mind pushing at all if it means he's more tired for bedtime.
Feedings are all messed up. He wakes up around 6 to feed then goes straight back to sleep so when he wakes up at 8-9, he's not hungry and tends to just take one breast which sets the tone for snacking in my opinion. I agree I can push to 3.5 hours between feeds. He almost did it today and got a nice feed but still wanted a top up before the second nap. I think he likes to go to bed full or maybe BF is becoming a prop. What are your thoughts on this?
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You could try feeding before the nap rather than after. I was feeding DS after naps and then a top-up just before and then he dropped the post-nap feeds in favour of a nice little nurse and cuddle before sleep.
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I agree that is what I have been doing but I thought maybe I should stop if I was trying to encourage 3.5 hour feeding schedule. Maybe I should go back to that? Today was pretty good feeding wise. I only did a top up once before his second nap then he wasn't hungry until 3.5 hours later. He took a nice big feed then a small top up of 1 oz before sleep.
The issue of NW has worsened since throughout the night he isn't going past 4 hours; but bedtime has slightly improved where he doesn't really stay up for an hour after bedtime anymore. The most is a half hour.
Perhaps if I work towards pushing A in the am it could improve?
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I meant to ask you Jillian, when you do top ups; how long afterwards would you feed again? That's where I get a bit confused.
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I did the top up and then offered again after the nap (usually 1.5 hours later). I found that he really didn't want milk after his morning nap so I ended up offering solids about an hour after the nap and then milk before the pm nap.
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Ok that makes sense. I am noticing he likes a top up before the am nap but usually not for the rest of the day. It's hard to tell because he is definitely teething; looks like two front teeth are coming in already! :D
Which leads me to my next question: I have read that A times shorten around teething but is that when the teeth are cutting through?
He's not there yet just chewing and drooling a lot. I can see white bumps where the two front teeth are. He's definitely moody but at 20 weeks that can be due to a lot.
I was going to start extending A to 2.5 this week since his naps have shorten and NW have increased but wanted to wait until we are back home (away with family).
He seems to be irritable and tired before his usual 2.25 A but then short naps 37-40 minutes which is usually UT. Long NW have come back too. Maybe that's UT as well. So just wondering if there's any tips around this.
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If you were planning on extending A times, I would stick with that plan.
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Ok should I extend gradually or just go for 2.5 in the am in one stroke? I figure that 15 minutes is not too far of a stretch. Then gradually extend A for the rest of the day if am nap is long enough.
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Yeah it sounds like you are getting back into that UT/OT cycle. Id go ahead and extend the first A time and same as before if you get a decent nap then continue to extend the next A time. If not don't.
How often is he feeding now? Are you having any luck resettling at night without feeding?
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Oh boy...I thought it may have been that Shiv. Last night was terrible. Woke up constantly then at 3 am had an hour long cot party. He woke up 1-2 1/2 hrs all night long at first just awake no crying but in the early am agitated! I did manage to settle without feeding him.
Last two days feeding hve been ok. He is doing on average 3-3.5 hour feeds but bc I had wedding stuff all weekend (I was MOH) my mom would babysit which for him meant not eating or sleeping well. So I know that a huge part is the cumulative OT from the last couple of days and loss of calories.
I am back home as of last night and wondering how to get back on track. He just ate and went straight back to sleep (he didn't actually sleep until midnight!). My plan was to wake him up at 9:30 no matter what to start getting him back to a fixed wake up. So I have to adjust my EASY since Feedings are whacked out.
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Is it normal for baby to wake up more than once during first nap when establishing new A?
I started 2.5 today and he woke up twice. I expected once but twice I assume is bc he's OT from the terrible sleep he's had in the last couple of days. Basically I held him for most of the nap.
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I think its just accumulated OT. APOPing a bit to help him catch up sounds like a good plan.
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I haven't seen my LO this OT ever. Tonight he cried for an 1hr 1/2 despite me putting him down 1.5 after CN. Tomorrow I'll try for just an hour. In your experience when dealing with A before bed with s baby that's really OT, was a really short A like an hour or under best?
Also if my LO has cumulative OT should I continue to push out first A to 2.5?
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I found an early bt always helped with accumulated OT (that and using whatever means necessary to get them to sleep ;))
Are you getting good naps on your current A time? If yes, I would leave it. If not, keep extending.
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Yes I need to extend. Today he did a 2:20 A and it was still shorter.
Did you do an early bedtime when waking up later? Sometimes i let him sleep in bc he's clearly OT.
Sorry one quick question: if I extend A amd nap is still on the shorter side (1hr 22 minutes) should I keep at it for three days to see if it works then increase or increase again tomorrow?
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Ahhhh! I don't know what i could have done differently...thoughts? I am just so tired and I know LO is tired sigh. It will be over one day.
Here is my EASY for today;
NW 8:58-9:43 pm, 9:58-10:56 pm, 4:40 am
WU 8:30 am
E 8:48 am
A
S 10:57- 12:20 pm (A 2:27; self settle; took several minutes; sang and stroked his head)
E 12:29 pm
A
S 2:43- 4:21 pm (A 2:23;self settle with modified shh pat); cried on sleep at 46 minutes jiggled
E 4:29 pm
A
E 6:12 pm (spit it up; probably was nursing for comfort not hunger)
A
S 6:50- 7:25 (A 2:29; fussy crying couldn't settle had to jiggle him. Next time put him down 5-5 minutes in advance)
A
E 8:20 pm
S 8:33-9:19 pm (A 1:07; OT woke up crying)
E 9:29 (finished feed)
S 9:33-10:34 pm
E 11 pm
S 12:05 am
So basically he had two NW so far: one 45 minutes after bedtime. The second time he was up for lore than an hour and a half...how can I help this situation ?
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I think he treated BT as a CN and then got OT.
I think you need to get pushing to 2.5.
How's today been? Sorry I'm away for a few days with family so just popping on quickly. Saw your post earlier and didn't want you to think I was just AWOL xxxx
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Hi Shiv! I hope you are having a great time with your family. I appreciate you giving a quick look especially since you are away. I really do appreciate it!
I have been pushing for 2.5 which has been hard but I agree he needs it. Today he fell asleep for his first nap at 2:23 A. He settled faster than I thought. He didn't need resettling which was great but napped 1:18; not sure what that means in this case.
Second nap is right at 2.5 so we will see. I didn't shorten A bc I thought the first was a bit UT. I figured OT is better than another UT nap.
As for BT...he may be treating it as a CN. I shortened his A and he slept longer than 30 minutes so I think I may be getting somewhere. My plan was to do 1 hr tops after a 30 min CN and see how that goes. Of course last night he did a long A from 10:30-midnight. My thought was perhaps he was still OT since he seems to have accumulated OT and is very slowly catching up.
I guess my question is: do I push for 2.5 for a few more days even though I had a shortened first nap? Do you think in your expertise that the long awakening is OT related or still UT?
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I think your best bet is to pick a set wu time and set nap times and stick with it for a week or so. At this point, it can be hard to sort out ut from accumulated ot.
Sorry, I have tendonitis and can't type much more.
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I am sorry to hear you have tendinitis. Sending you love and a speedy recovery.
You are so right. I haven't been consistent. I thought he would emerge with a consistent natural wake up time but I was wrong. I guess I just felt bad waking him but it has definitely not helped anything. So to be clear even if he has an awful night still stuck with wake up?
I'm totally new to this; would I still push for A of 2.5? I'm assuming yes. Did you mention one of your LO required a short A to bed. I think mine may require 1 hr after his CN. Is that common?
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How old is he now?
I think set naps might be less stressful for you than A times - naps are at the same time each day (at most 15/20 minutes earlier if an ewu or short nap).
If he's 6 months or older, I would try this:
WU: 7
S: 930-11
S: 1-230 (or whenever he wakes)
CN if needed (may push BT a bit later)
BT: 7
If he naps later than 3, I would do ebt 3 hrs from wu. I think you were aiming for an 8 wu, so you could adjust accordingly but most baby routines suggest a 7/730 wu as being best for setting their body clocks.
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We did 8am wake up. It worked great.
So our day would have looked something like:
8am wake up
10.30am nap
12 wake up
2.30 nap
4 wake up
6.30 CN
7pm wake up
8.30/8.45 bedtime
Mine didn't do 12 hour nights. The later bedtime suited us as my DH worked late and was only home at 7pm but when DD2 came along she did a 7.30am start to the day but went to bed earlier to match Dd1.
I know lots have success with EBT but it is important to remember that EBT is a tool to be used for a short time while you are sorting routines. If you do the same bedtime for more than 5/6 then it is no longer EBT and is just bedtime. And then lots of people get themselves into bother as the day is just too short long term and lots of LOs don't do longer nights longer term. So it is a good tool if you get CN refusal but I have found personally and also through people's experiences on here that you need to be be sure that night sleep is increasing with EBT and not just giving you a night the same length or only slightly longer as that will mess everything up longer term. We could have done EBT once in a while when they were really tired and get 12.5/13 hour nights but if we'd tried again the following night we'd have ended up with a supposed 7pm EBT but a 6 am wake up, 2 hours earlier than normal.
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Thank you ladies for the reply!
Lillian- my LO is just about to be 5 months in a couple of days so not sure if set times would work for him
Shiv- My LO sounds like yours as he has never actually done 12 hour nights; the most is almost 11 1/2 hours. My routine looks similar to gods except with the consistency. Also, my A before bed is an 1 hr but I'm scratching my head on whether he is UT or OT by despite the shortened A, he still wakes up in 30-45 minutes is basically treating BT like another CN I'm hoping waking him up consistently will start to regulate his body clock where he will treat BT like well like BT. I'm also wondering if because he was catching up from accumulated OT, he needed a shortened A to 1 hr because last night his A was 1:15 and he woke up 30 minutes later not crying. He just popped up and took about an hour to go back to sleep for the night. So it would seem like UT behavior but the sleep length says OT. That's where I am all types of confused! Lol
So I'm wondering if my LO would benefit from a 13 hour day rather than a 12?
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I think even aiming for 12.5 is good. And if you need 13 as he needs a tad more A time after the CN then that is ok.
I do think you need to pick a set wake up for the day and go for it. He seems to need a good amount of A time to be tired enough to sleep at bedtime YK? I'd probably stick to 1/1h15 after the CN for now while you are waking him in the morning. I do think maybe things a bit more set in terms of wake up may help things even out a bit.
This is such a tricky time. I found it so much easier once mine were upto 3 hours A time at 6 months and moved to 2 naps of 1.5 hours. And I'd say it won't be too long until you are there.
Hugs. You'll get there xxx
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Thank you Shiv!
I keep telling myself that it's a phase and that I'm doing the best I can. Hopefully 5/6 months will be much easier in terms of sleep.
Hopefully with waking him up consistently and the new A time will help. It's interesting because he seems to have these wakings 1/2 hr after BT then hour long wakings from like 9 or so until 10 or So. He is wide awake and resisting being put back to sleep then cries. It's just throwing me for a loop and me being me, I want to just understand why lol but maybe it's one of those things where I won't understand and it is part of his 4 month phase.
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I know. It's frustrating not knowing why! I think if you can get him up consistently and apply the routine bedtime should get easier. O
Still pally the same as before. If he short naps reduce next A time slightly and if you need to do an odd early bedtime do. I really found though set naps within reason and set bedtime really helped us xx
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Yes! I'm realizing he needs consistency which is interesting for me Bc naturally I'm a go with the flow type person but it's not helping him at all lol
Question: if he starts waking himself up on his own I should stretch the A before BT from 1/1 15 minutes to 1.5 right?
The last 3 days he has woke himself up at 7:30 so I'm thinking he may not be tired enough after the CN. He's averaging 11-11.5 hrs of night sleep.
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Yeah once things even out you may well need a longer A time after the CN. Once it starts to get too long that's when you would look at moving to 2 naps. How long are you letting him sleep for the CN at the minute? Mine always seemed to need a ridiculous amount of time after even a short nap.
11/11.5 night sleep is great...just want it starting at a more reasonable time!!
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Haha yes!!! Reasonable time would be absolutely splendid then me and the hubby can have some quality time again. We lost an hour last night Bc he was up so it was below his usual 14.5 average of daily sleep.
When you say even out do you mean he's waking up consistently for a few days or night sleep is between 11-11.5? I agree that he may need longer very soon if not tonight. He seems to need longer A time for naps in general which is why we are at 2.5 but CN is s mystery. Currently, he does 30-35 minutes but I'm thinking of capping at 30 to make it consistent and easier.
I have been doing 1-1.25 A before BT but he still treats it as a CN ranging from 30-45 minutes. Maybe he isn't tired enough?
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Sorry I mean once he's getting up at a set time you should start to get that good long stretch starting at a reasonable time. You may have a few shorter nights initially until he starts to realise bedtime is bedtime and not a CN but the longer day should help short that out.
Let me know how you go xx
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Thank you Shiv!
I'll keep you posted!
Xx
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So I forgot to mention that my naps are shortened by a bit deposite the 2.5 A. Not sure if I should work on any tweaks. This is how today went:
NW 9:24, 10:14-11:24, 4:48am
WU: 7:38 am
E: 8:10 am
A
S 10:06-11:36 am (A 2:28; not enough wind down; was irritable and didn't settle had to hold him; woke up at 33 minutes crying resettled in my arms put him down then he cried again resettled in my arms)
E 11:53 am
A
S 2:05-3:26 (A 2:29; cried a bit self settled while I jiggled the mattress)
E 3:38 pm
A
E 4:53 pm (top up)
A
S 5:46- 6:32 (A 2:20; self settle but was fussy and moving a lot; jiggled cot to calm him down then shh pat)
E 6:38 pm
A
E 7:53 pm (top up)
S 8:12-9:27 pm (A 1:40; jiggled was fighting sleep and hyper; woke up at 37 resettled; maybe UT)
E 9:40 pm
S 9:50-
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It can take a few days to lengthen so I wouldn't tweak any more for now. 2.5 A time and set wake up is enough change for now x
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Ok sounds great! Will keep you posted :D
One great note, LO slept great. He woke up a half hour after BT but resettled quickly. Then only woke up twice later at night to eat then went straight back to sleep. A big improvement from 1-2 hr NW!
Today he got shots so his sleep is all over the place so we will pick right up tomorrow :D
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Excellent news on last night!!! Hurray!!!
Hope the shots don't unsettle him too much.
Hugs! You're doing great xx
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Awww thank you! I so appreciate that! I have been trying so hard and I'm just happy to see improvements! I know that it would not have happened without the advice and support of you and Lillian.
He was unsettled as it turns out but he's asleep (hopefully for the night). I will be getting him up at the regular time tomorrow to get back on track.
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Keep me posted xx
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Hi!
So last night went better. After a CN of 35 minutes, did an A of 1:25. He was agitated and fussy but I suspect it was his leg bothering him since he was like that all day. He did sleep for nearly an hour before waking up. I had to resettle him as he was unable to get comfortable. Usually he rolls over and enjoys sleeping on his stomach, but the last two nights he has resisted. Again probably because of his shots on his leg. After resettling, he did sleep for nearly 6 hours then woke up for a feed and back in bed for another 4. So down to two NW. Hopefully, I can get him to a place where he can have his first waking after several hours of sleeping.
I am still unsure if the A after CN is right but it looks like it will be trial and error since I can't rely on his sleep cues ha!
Naps have improved with a 2.5 A. The first one is still slightly shorter than 1.5 but I am giving it a couple more days then may consider lengthening but I will ask about that should it come to that. Today his first A was slightly shortened due to a shortened night (he only slept 10 1/2 hrs not including feeding times). So we will see how the rest of the day progresses. I am feeling optimistic though!
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Sounds good! Yes don't change any for another few days.
Nights seem to be getting a lot better. Phew!
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Yes!!! I'm so happy! Today was good. He napped for 2 hours this morning! Then slept for an hour and 10 minutes in the carrier at a friends house! He Had a CN in the car but it was too short of A so now I'm trying to get him to bed now. We will see what happens :-D
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Update: last night didn't go so well. He went to bed OT or perhaps UT. So he dozed off in the car for 25 minutes after an A of 2 hrs (half hour shorter than what it's supposed to be); he did have a shortened second nap (about 1:10). Anyways, I decided to keep his A at 1.5 since it worked pretty well the night before and because I figured his CN was a UT nap. Well perhaps that wasn't the right call haha!
He ended up waking up 40 minutes afterwards the stayed up for an 1.5 wanting to play. Not sure if wired or he was still UT. Then he dozed off at 10:15 pm after I nursed him. He had a NW at around 3 which is fine so I fed him. Then he woke up early at 6:45! I tried resettling with shh pat and nothing. So I tried APOP and nothing. Finally, he started crying out of hunger so I gave in at 7 (since by then it's been almost 4 hours). Now he's asleep. So I plan on waking him up at 8 for consistency and adjust rearrange his feedings for the day. My concern is that he didn't sleep enough and will be harder to not get OT by bedtime.
My question is whether there is a general rule of thumb or perhaps any tips should this situation happen again. After a UT CN, how do I handle the A before BT?
Also the day after a shortened night. Is there anything I can do to avoid a lot of OT by BT?
Thank you!
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In general after a shortened nap you reduce the A time to keep on top of OT. I think last night was a case of UT then OT.
I think you're right to aim toward a few days of consistent 2.5 A time to see can you get bedtime a bit more solid.
How's he feeding? Is he taking full feeds through the day or still needing topped up?
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Yes that makes sense. Hopefully tonight will go better. My alarm didn't go off today :o So DS slept until almost 9! Instead of making the day long and late; I'm trying an early BT and forego the CN. Hopefully it works out so that tomorrow we will be back on track.
As for feedings, he has been doing full feeds every 3.5-4 hours. Usually in the am, he will do one breast and then a top up an hour later. However, in the last two days he has been eating ALOT more. He is wanting more top up and today he ate 2 FULL feeds within 1.5 hours! I was shocked. So I asked on the breastfeeding board and it seems to be a possible growth spurt. I also suspect teething may be playing a part in it as well.
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I think it's a good plan to just go for 2 naps and good 2.5 to bed. I'd have likely just fed right away at 6.45! I didn't do early morning starts though ;)
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Haha neither do I!
Well we had four NW and an early rising at 5:45. I fed him and got him to finally g to sleep around 6 after he was fighting it. I didn't want to get him up bc he didn't sleep much. I'm at a lost, not sure where to go from here.
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I forgot to ask: what should I do to catch him up on sleep?
I'm pretty sure he has done sleep debt to chip away especially with NW increasing and early wake ups. He seems overactive, irritable, and rubs his eyes a lot.
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I tend to follow cues to get past sleep debt but my DS has pretty obvious cues. If 2.5 hr A is working I would stick with that (don't worry if that first nap is a bit less than 1.5) and don't cap any naps. If he's tired, let him nap as long as he needs. I would keep the consistent WU though because I think that will help solve the BT issues and NWs and he'll just get more OT if you don't. If he's very tired in the morning, I would shorten that A time if you think he'll do have a restorative nap (mine often did off of a short morning A following a bad night).
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Thank you!
Last night was s better night where he slept 11 1/2 hrs with 3 NW. One NW lasted for an hour but I expected it since he's really OT. Also I didn't do a CN so that probably contributed to the waking since he probably treated the BT as a CN. The first nap was shortened (1:10) but that could be residual OT.
Unfortunately I have to follow a clock since he isn't giving off apparent cues. So should I maintain 2.5 A regardless of shortened naps or shorten A by 10-15 minutes?
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He is resisting naps!!!! He used to self settle really well and now he fights it, tries to roll around happily, then cries out of frustration while I attempt to shh pat. I try to pu/pd and he cries harder. I put him down he's happy and rolling around again. Shh pat is barely working like it was. I have to rock to get to a point of real drowsiness then put down; this has been last 3 days or so. However today and yesterday he resisted afternoon naps and ended up going over his A.
Just now I finally got him to sleep after vigorous rocking. It was a nightmare. I aimed for a slightly shorter A due to the shortened am nap and ended up with going over regular A; 2:35. However, so far he's been asleep for almost an hour without a peep.
Needless to say, I was crying bc with bedtime being difficult and now naps, I'm exhausted and confused. I'm sorry for the crazy rant, I'm just at my wits end.
Is this the result of OT? He just hit 5months on Wednesday; does he need a longer A right? Should I just give up on trying to encourage independent sleep for a couple days until he is consistently getting rest?
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(((hugs))) Days like that are tough.
Is it on 2.5h A time that he's refusing? You may find that he doesn't need the A time shortened very much after a short nap. Some LOs (mine included) often don't.
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If you stick him in and he's happy I'd just leave him and not try to convince him to sleep. Keep an eye in case it's UT and goes on and on. But otherwise I'd just do your sleep routine and put him down and let him at it. As they get a bit older they can take a bit longer to settle and if he's happy to lie and roll about let him try and work it out xx
Hugs xx
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Thank you! I try to remind myself that it's a phase and that I'm doing the best I can.
Yea all of a sudden he's refusing 2.5 A. Like I do the same nap routine wind down, the lay him down. However, he rolls on his stomach and just wants to play and roll. I try to give him plenty of floor time for this so not sure if it's just one of those things that will pass. However, he tried to settle but can't. Then he gets agitated and in the end I APOP. But even that gets hairy bc he is awake and wants to just look around and tried to push himself off of me. PU/PD doesn't work bc he gets worked up when I try to pick him up and soothe him.
He is due for a developmental leap 5 according to Wonder Weeks. Usually it starts at 23 weeks (LO is 22 weeks) but maybe he's getting into it early? Or I'm thinking his day starts UT with a shortened nap and it goes downhill from there.
Last night he had 3 NW with one early in the evening that lasted an hour. It was really hard to get him to sleep and even when I did he kept stirring every two minutes for 20 minutes before finally drifting.
Here's my routine from today thus far:
NW 8:45-940pm, 2:32 am, 4:48 am
WU: 7:57 am
E 8:17
A
S 10:23- 11:34 am(A 2:26; rocked then put him down drowsy while singing; went down fairly easy after I got him drowsy since he was wide awake)
E 11:59 am
A
S 2:10- 3:40 pm (A 2:35; wired and would not go down. Crying hard. Tried everything had to rock him to sleep.)
E 4:03
A
S 6:14- (A 2:34; didn't settle kept wanting to push up and roll from tummy to back; got agitated. I waited 10-15 minutes to see if he would settle. Finally jiggled him to sleep.)
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Update: last night we had 5 NW with one earlier that lasted 1.5 hrs. I'm being consistent nonetheless with WU even thought night is all over the place. I tried an earlier BT and that backfired. Perhaps UT, OT, or maybe developmental.
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Ugh what a night. SOrry hun I've been awol.
What is your gut telling you? How are you resettling the NWs?
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Lol it's ok! I appreciate the constant help!
Ok so my gut is telling me he could benefit from a push in A. I feel he starts out UT then either ends the day UT or OT. The last two days his morning nap has been broken (wakes between 38-42 minutes) and it gets increasingly harder to resettle. Even though he resettles it still doesn't add up to 1.5 maybe 1:15-120. I also think it's developmental bc he's at the prime week for a wonder week so that can be contributing to the naps but the NW have been happening for awhile.
Depending when NW are, I feed or I try shh pat. If that doesn't work bc he's all over the place; I'll resort to rocking. PU/PD is too stimulating for him. He either pushes me off of him or gets very agitated.
My question would be should I push a tad bit? By how much? I was thinking 5-10 minutes but not sure if it's enough. If the nap is broken but still fulfilled do I extend next A or do I wait until first nap is seamless the push?
He settles really well at 2:26 A to the minute sometimes closer to 2.5 but still doesn't do a full nap unless it was a bad night and he's really tired. The second nap ends up longer bc o APOP so it leads me to believe that makes him more UT for the evening then has his hour-1.5 nigh waking early in the evening. My other thought is maybe making the A after CN a tad longer but not sure if I should do both the stretching of first A and A before BT or do one at a time to see what works.
What do you think? At this point I'm just shooting in the dark ha! The great news is he's self settling again with shh pat!! I was scared he was forgetting! So that's a big step in the right direction.
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Great news he is settling again!!!
I've looked over the last few posts and I think he does need a bump in A time. 38-42 minutes would have been UT naps here. I'd push to 2.40 for that first A time. If you get a decent nap with maybe one waking you can resettle then push for the next one too. If not stick to 2.30. That seem ok?
I get the impression he is just going to do better on two naps so if you can work toward building the A time up that'll get him there. I think the CN is causing issues and it's hard to know whats OT and UT. So once you can get to 3 hour A time you can look at dropping that CN and do
Wake up
3 hours A time
Nap 1.5
3 hours a time
Nap 1.5
3 hours A time
Bed
So much easier!!!!!
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Shiv!!!! It's like you read my mind!
After I replied to your last post, I started thinking what if my DS is moving towards getting rid of the CN? I started going through other threads about dropping CN and when to do it etc. I just thought hmmm I think it would be SO much easier if he did two naps. Crazy thing is I just had to APOP the CN bc he was fighting it hard and then started crying. I can't remember when he actually found it this hard. It's like the pieces started coming together.
The I just read your post talking about moving towards the CN...brilliant!! I'm so for that plan!
Ok so I will start stretching that A tomorrow. In general, how long does it take to work up to 3 hours A? Also do I shorten the CN since I will be at 2:40? Of course, given that all A times end up at 2:40 or more. I guess I am wondering what the in between routine would look like until the CN is gone?
I am actually excited to get rid of the CN. I believe it does cause issues for bed.
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Great minds :)
I had a horrendous time getting rid of the CN with my DD1. It was Weeks and weeks of faffing and APing it and then bedtime being really late then OT if she wouldn't take it. Awful time. Since then I've done every transition quickly although I know that's not for everyone. But both of mind did better with set naps from 5 months on. With my DD2 once she was resisting the CN I got that A time upped over a week or so then that was that. On two naps much easier. She needed the odd CN if naps were rubbish or we were out but on the whole both did better with more set times.
But why don't you do 2.40 for 3 days and see where you're at. He seems to be managing the A time ok? Like he's not falling apart and exhausted is he?
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:o I hope the transition will be smoother for DS!
He seems to handle A times really well. I haven't done huge leaps or anything but the most I get is whines to put him to sleep then sometimes a few tears trying to settle.
I am ok with the plan. I definitely don't want to push too hard the end up with a bigger disaster yk? So I was skimming through threads and I notice when people up their A to 2:40-2:45, they start shortening the CN. I was thinking of doing the same maybe 15-20 minutes. Is that a better route rather than staying with 30 min CN?
And the age old question: in general if I were to shortened the CN to 15-20 minutes; what would be a good A to aim for before BT. I can tweak it if it doesn't work that way, I'm just thinking a starting point.
Tonight I tried 1.5 after a 27 minute CN (he woke up on his own) and he woke up 40 minutes after BT. Have no idea what that means, but I didn't get an hour long NE either so that was good.
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LOL the transition with my DD2 was much better as I did more set times and was consistent rather than chopping and changing. Mine I later learned never gave reliable cues!!!
I would shorten the CN. If you don't then you need a very long A time after. If you shorten it then you can cut the A time and hope he'll settle better to bed.
As for the A time after, if you're thinking A time is 2.45 hours then after 20 minutes he'll probably need 1.30?? I'm actually a bit unsure-see why I gave up the CN quickly? How long did it take to resettle when he woke 40 minutes after BT?
Hows the teething?
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Haha My LO is the same! He does sleepy cues out of habit around 1.5 A. He yawns a lot of he's bored too lol I do notice if he gets OT he gets really hyper and giggly.
Ok that makes sense I can try 1.5 after a 20 minute CN and see how it goes. Today I did a 2:40 A; he fell asleep at 2:35 A and short napped so tomorrow I'll be sure to push more. He fell asleep much quicker than expected which is good bc that means I'm on the right track. So I shortened his next A by about 10 minutes.
Teething is still bearable. Just gnawing at everything including my shoulder and DH hand lol
We gave him tylonel before bed just to rule out discomfort. My bigger problem is his obsession to roll in his sleep lol I give him plenty of floor time but he likes to also do it at night. I'm sure it will calm down soon.
It took me 25 minutes to resettle then he woke up again 1.5 hours later which I shh pat to resettle. He woke up a half hour later then I fed. I'm thinking the A after BT was too short.
I would love to give up the CN as quick as possible as it's proving to be the thorn in my side!!
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So hard to know with teething!!! I blamed teeth on everything with DD1 and she didn't get her first tooth until 14 months!!!!!!!
Fact he fell asleep quicker does show you're on right track.
Keep me posted. Hope bedtime is more peaceful tonight!!!
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LOL the transition with my DD2 was much better as I did more set times and was consistent rather than chopping and changing.
This is what I did too. I just found it too hard to figure out the A time after a short nap. 1.5 sounds like a good place to start.
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So true Lillian! I feel like I am forever botching up the A time after a short nap or CN.
So I have had two shortened naps today so I still have a CN for him so I think I have to keep the CN at 30 minutes at most bc then my day is too short for him; it will end up being an 11 or 11.5 day for him. He is not a high sleep needs baby so not sure if a shortened day works for him.
I must say I can't wait to phase out the CN!
So did you both just jump right in into set nap times? What was your schedules like when you did that? Lillian i think you did post yours for me at some point on this thread. I believe your A in the am was shorter than the rest of the A times. How did you come up with this schedule? As I said my LO does NOT have reliable sleep cues and he goes to sleep rather easily even if the A isn't enough but rather close (like today).
I'm sorry I am new to all of this and feel like i need my hand held or something... ;)
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I got the routine from another poster on here who got it from a book. It worked well for a few mamas on here.
For 5-6 month olds:
WU: 630/7
S: 9-1030
S: 1-230
BT: 630/7
For 6-9 month olds:
WU: 630/7
S: 930-11
S: 130-3
BT: 630/7
I began when it was pretty clear that the CN was ready to go (he was fighting it a lot). I am not good at waking babies (and DS often slept past 7 at that stage) so I started by making sure that am nap was shorter and ended at 11 (if he woke at 8, we went for a walk at 10 so we woke on his own around 11 - always has short naps in the stroller). Once he started waking on his own around 7 he got so used to the 930 nap, he'd go down easily then even if he slept in. I didn't wake him from the pm nap. If it ended at 3 or later, I did BT 3 hours from when he woke (it was a leap in A time for the first bit and the last hour was tough but we managed) and if it ended before 3, we did a short CN.
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Good morning!
The schedule looks good. Did you just jump right in? How did your DS take to it? How did you handle OT until he adjusted?
My obvious concern is accumulated OT and more NW disasters but I also know that he is ready to phase out the CN as he fought so much last night against it. So much work for him to sleep around 20 minutes! Then the A to BT was not quite right since he woke soon (40 minutes) after BT crying.
I'm letting DS sleep in a bit. We had a crazy night. NW every 2-3 hours where He was taking full feeds all night! Not to mention the EW from 5:45-7 am where he was rolling over and over and over again :o
He eventually put himself back to sleep. I just tried to gently wake him up (even turned him over on his back which he hates) but he is out cold lol
I'll have to adjust the routine for today since usually we start between 7-7:30 (sometimes he wakes up earlier than 7:30 WU call)
Not sure if I count him going back to sleep around 7 as a nap since he was wake for pretty much an hour?
Update: He woke up at 9! I tried 3 different times to wake him up and nothing. So I don't want a BT of 9:30-10. With the new A times how do I get an earlier BT and fit all feeds? Or should I just roll with the later BT and just wake him up tomorrow at 7:30. I don't want to restart a pattern of late am wake ups. We have come so far!
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I'd maybe wing it for today. and aim for bed realistically 8pm? I don't think so far he has done well with too short a day. I think lovely if you are going to try and be consistent you are going to have wake him. Just give him a wriggle and lift him and get him awake. I don't think gently will do it if he's been awake a lot. But its a catch 22 as short day leads to UT and then leads to OT and you're stuck in a vicious cycle yk?
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lol i'm a mush! You are right I have to just do what it takes to wake him...
Yea it would seem from the past he is not too keen on a short day. I can shoot for 8-8:30 since he got up at 9. I guess it comes down to how well he naps today also. I am thinking capping them (although he hasn't done over 1.5 in days) so it gives me a better chance of him being tired by 8ish.
I do appreciate you both helping me so much...very very grateful!!
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Welcome xx
In BW solves all your problems Tracey is pretty emphatic about being consistent when establishing routines for the initial 4/5 days and then more toward cue watching and I think that is essentially what you are looking to do. But in your case what you need to be consistent with is the wake up and those first 2 A times.
I hated waking mine too!
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Yes! I must get that book! I have the first one but haven't purchased the next one.
I am pushing A for 2:40 today. He was GRIZZLY going down for the first nap, crying and everything. I jiggled the mattress in the cot a bit to get him settled since picking him up only made him cry harder when i put him back down. He woke up crying at he 34th minute mark. Tried shh pat and it escalated so I APOPed the remainder of the nap.
We will see how the rest of the day goes!
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Hope it goes well!!
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Well after 20 minutes of shh pat he is down! Hoping that it's for a couple of hours! He actually went down at almost 2:50 A. Is it possible to push the A to 2:45 tomorrow? I did 2:40 yesterday and today and it seems it may not be enough. Or should I give it one more day before bumping up A?
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Sorry, I have no advice on A times as it was at this point that I jumped to set naps. I do agree with Shiv that you'll need to be consistent about waking him (I hate it too, I know it's tough). I would turn on a lamp and pick him up if he's really out.
Did you just jump right in? How did your DS take to it? How did you handle OT until he adjusted?
I did just jump right in as he was ready for an A time push when we started. He did quite well but he tends to deal with OT pretty well. He did have some 30/40 minute wake ups at first but was fairly easy to resettle. Nights got much better once we ditched the CN and went with a long last A.
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Yes it's true I need to be consistent with wake up. I'm always cautious around OT so I always want him to at least get 11 hours over night sleep which is also why I hesitate to wake him up if he's out. I have to think of the bigger picture with that though.
Lillian I do have some questions about the routine you posted. It's so tempting for me to jump in especially since he's clearly UT then OT. Tonight he woke up again shortly after BT.
- I noticed on the 5-6 month routine the first two A times are between 2-2.5 hrs then 3 hours to bed. Right now DS is doing 2:40 in A times but he is still doing 1:10-1:20 naps which indicate UT. Has anyone successfully used this routine when their LO were on higher first two A times? Did the longer A before bed help longate naps to at least 1.5?
-what is the reasoning behind the shorter first two A times?
- how do I know if DS does well with OT? I mean he's not a monster when he is OT. It's actually the opposite, he's that wired happy OT baby haha.
Sorry for all the questions! I do appreciate the help once again!
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Has anyone successfully used this routine when their LO were on higher first two A times? Did the longer A before bed help longate naps to at least 1.5?
The poster that I got this from did have her LO on longer first As and pared them back with success. The longer A to bed is supposed to encourage a longer nap - essentially their body learns to sleep longer earlier in the afternoon knowing they've got a long stretch to bed.
what is the reasoning behind the shorter first two A times?
I think it's based on research about body clocks and sleep windows but I'm not sure. I was rereading BWSAYP and noticed that Tracy does recommend the first nap being around 9/930 even as they get older (based on a 7 am WU so 2/2.5 h A time).
how do I know if DS does well with OT? I mean he's not a monster when he is OT. It's actually the opposite, he's that wired happy OT baby haha.
It's partly behavior and partly how they sleep when OT. DD was wired an happy but had more disturbed sleep when OT. DS is a bit of a bear but then just tends to crash and catch up.
Another common routine is a 2-3-4 so something like:
WU: 7
S: 9-10
S: 1-3
BT: 7
or
WU: 7
S: 9-1030
S: 130-3
BT: 7
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Thanks Lillian!
My DS sounds just like your DD. he is wired and happy but then has terrible sleep as a result. He definitely is not a crashing all night bc of exhaustion type although I wish he were.
I'm wondering what's the range in which they get accustomed to this routine?
What if LO is teething or going through a spurt, is it still ok to start? I actually want to start the routine you first demonstrated maybe Monday. This weekend We are out and about but will be working on a 2:45 A for the AM. Bc of his temperament should I ease into the routine?
How does that happen?
I think the 2-3-4 may be too much of a jump for now.
Sorry for all the questions!
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I'm wondering what's the range in which they get accustomed to this routine?
Do you mean how many days? If yes, I would say from 2-3 days up to a week.
What if LO is teething or going through a spurt, is it still ok to start?
It sounds like you are at the tail end of a growth spurt so I would go ahead. If you suspect teething pain, I would give advil or Tylenol before sleep.
Bc of his temperament should I ease into the routine?
I would probably just jump in - I'm a bit impatient that way ;) I would also do whatever needed to resettle if he wakes early during a nap. Use EBT where needed to rescue a day with two short naps. Don't forget, you can pull the naps forward 15 minutes or so if he wakes early in the am or has a shorter am nap.
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I agree. I think you just need to jump in. Until u get a wee bit of consistency it's so hard to know what's is affecting things xx
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Ok! Well ladies here goes nothing! I will jump right in as I feel he can handle it.
Does the routine have to start at 7? Can it start a little later or is that not advisable?
If it's 2 rubbish naps, how early would I need the EBT? Or how long would a CN be and after how much A time would the CN take place?
I am assuming I still resettle even after a short UT nap until he gets used to the shortened first two As.
This looks like a solid plan! I really hope it resolves issues. Last night he went back to two NW. I shortened the CN and had. 1.75 to bed. He was OT but quickly resettled and slept nearly 6 hours! That hasn't happened in a awhile so I'm hoping with the new routine it will help keep things consistent.
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You can start whenever suits you. We were doing typical rhythms in class in Friday and the science of melatonin and it begins to drop off any time from 7.15-8.15 so anywhere in there is fine.
Sorry I'm not getting something? What do you mean by this:
I am assuming I still resettle even after a short UT nap until he gets used to the shortened first two As.
Shortened As? I can't imagine you would have any luck extending an UT nap at all. And if you wanted to try I'd do 10 mins tops then get him up. Are you doing the routine you've found on here? And not one based on A times?
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Good morning!
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Lilian's routine that she posted to this thread calls for the first two A times to be between 2-2.5 (depending on which routine I adopt). I'm leaning towards the one for 6-9 months with first two A times of 2.5 and last A before bed at 3 hours. My concern is UT naps since LO has been doing an A of 2:40-2.75 and barely making it to a 1.5 hr nap( it's been between 1:10-1:25, but mostly 1:10). In the last two days he wakes up at the 38-43 minute mark crying. I'm assuming still UT. So if I cut back to a 2.5 A for the first two, I may get UT naps that will be less than 1.5. I'm wondering if I should continue to resettle despite a UT nap; surprisingly I have had success doing it even though it is infinitely harder lol but I'm assuming that within these routines (Lillian's) doing the first two A times of 2.5 has a reasoning behind it rather than doing say 2.75 or more for the first two A times?
Right now I have been doing A times of 2.40-2.75 depending on length of last nap which has mild success in terms of cot parties but naps aren't as long as they should be. I planned to start the routine posted to this thread tomorrow. But then I'm wondering if I should have a different set nap times? I do like the idea of set naps rather than constantly calculating A. I was thinking the 6-9 month one would suit him better...or should I start with the 5-6 month one?
Very interesting about the melatonin! That helps bc my LO wakes up closer to 8 naturally but started getting accustomed to a 7:30 WU which is my ultimate goal so BT can stay between 7:30-8.
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Then maybe Lillian clarify? I've not heard of people using a set routine not based on their own child's A times? Do you not just end up with UT naps leading to mega OT by the end of the day plus needing a shorter day or the need for a CN?
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That would be great as I am so confused on how this works...
Also I realized that my LO never adds to his night sleep when day sleep is shortened so not sure if I should cap naps on this new routine because I think that would lead to OT at night. I think that makes him LSN correct?
I'm wondering if set naps can be adjusted to child's A? I think LO is moving towards increasing A from 2.75 so not sure how it can be tweaked.
This is all new territory for me ;)
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I've not heard of people using a set routine not based on their own child's A times? Do you not just end up with UT naps leading to mega OT by the end of the day plus needing a shorter day or the need for a CN?
It is a routine from a book that another poster on here used. It's not so much that it's not based on an LO's A times - they are generally appropriate age-based averages, but that it usually works for a quite a while rather than pushing A times every few weeks. Of course, not every LO will do the exact same thing. For me, it was pretty much based on my LOs A times because when I started it he was ready for a push in A time. The original poster started it after pushing A times for quite a while with limited success and found things got better when she shortened the first 2 A times and lengthened the last one. If the routine really didn't work for an LO you could certainly end up with what you described but a lot of my non-BW friends have arrived to something similar (based on LOs own cues) and had success. I think the keys are the earlier am and pm naps (even Tracy recommends the am nap be around 9/930) and that longer last A.
I'm wondering if set naps can be adjusted to child's A? I think LO is moving towards increasing A from 2.75 so not sure how it can be tweaked.
You can also base them off A times that work for you. Do you think you have built up OT? If you do, shortening the first A times and lengthening the last may help. Really, the only way to know is to be consistent for a few days and see what happens.
Even some non-LSN LOs don't add on to nights - its more about how much sleep they need on average. If he's doing around 3hrs of day sleep that's pretty typical for his age so in theory (it all sounds good in theory doesn't it ;)) should be ok. Also, if he's waking crying I wouldn't assume it's UT even if it's at 38-40 minutes. For my LOs, how they woke mattered more than when they woke - sometimes my DS wakes crying at 2 hrs if he was OT when the nap started.
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I also just want to clarify that I'm not saying the routines I posted are they only ones that work - that's the beauty of BW, we know there's lots of options - but that they worked well for me and other moms that I'm friends with. I was just sharing to help you find something that works.
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Thank you Jillian for clarifying a bit more!
I am definitely interested in establishing a routine that perhaps is more set.
Maybe I'm just not good at reading my LO :o
LO may have accumulated OT since NW and EW still happen. Last night it was 4 but I know it was OT due to bad naps all day (we were out and about). With naps, he sometimes wakes up happy and sometimes (lately with the same A time) fussy and/or crying. It could be the teething. I noticed he has been fussier in general and biting and gnawing more; including biting me while breastfeeding...ouch! So the teething could be why he has been waking up midnap crying. I try to give him teething camila before his naps. During the teething phase, even if they aren't cutting teeth do I shorten A a bit? Or plow on?
I am finding that this age is tricky! Ultimately my goal is to have good naps and more importantly no more ENW!
Out of curiosity, Shiv, did you also set nap times?
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Yes I set nap times but based on A times my LO was needing. Set naps based on particular times isn't really BW. My friend did Gina Fords routine and that's what she did. Set times regardless.
Hope today has been ok x
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If you don't mind could you show me the routine when your LO was around this age?
Things improved last night. I'm realizing a very short CN (20 minutes) and short A before BT has helped. It's not perfect (but what ever is) but I definitely see improvement. Is a nap of 1:15 restorative?
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How are things Hun?
At this age I did 2.45 A time 2 naps and a 20/30minute CN and shorter A time to bed. We had an 11 hour night to fit it in. At 6 months we moved to 3 hours A time and got rid of the CN.
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Hi Shiv!
Things are better for sure in terms of NW. We have 2-3 right now which is way better than 4-6. I get messed up when I attempt to do two naps and EBT. Just doesn't work no matter how hard I try lol he's not the baby that tacks on sleep at night. However, past two nights he has been doing 11.5 hrs of sleep so my aim is a 12 hour day to accomplish his hours. Needless to say I'm happy with the improvements!
I still get the wake up right after bedtime so I can't seem to get the A after a 20 minute CN. I'm pushing for 2.75 since 2.40 isn't enough. Giving it a couple of days to see. I was wondering how much A you give after your CN. I thought we needed shorter which worked one night but then I realized he didn't have a well rested night the night before so when I tried an hour A again after a well rested night, it didn't work. He ended up falling asleep at almost 1.75 A.
Also if I'm doing a 2.75 A and he wakes up between 35-42 into the naps fussy and crying, that means OT right?
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Ahhhhh I'm going crazy!!!
NW have increased and he's teething. I'm not sure what to do with my EASY. It's become such a mess. Today he only napped for 34 minutes and it was the first time I couldn't resettle. He's OT and I don't know what to do! I need help to restart the EASY or something. I have completely lost my way.
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Ugh!!
Can you post the last few days? How's the self settling been?
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:'( I know! Now granted I did let him sleep later than the 8 am WU because he had bad nights of teething. However, does this explain the increase in wakings? The later WU? Because if that's all there is then I will be much more rigid on it.
I do know teething causes sleep disturbances but when he wakes up, he's not crying each time. Sometimes, he just pops right up. I am also having issues with naps. I do give him natural teething gel before naps and baby tylenol before sleep; I feel like it barely works but maybe it's not supposed to work 100%. I also don't feed to sleep at each waking, I have shh patted when I don't feed.
Here are the last few days. I was trying to experiment with A's to try to alleviate OT but I think it backfired when I tried.
Thursday's:
NW 10:13 pm, 2:41 am, 5:55 am Total/ 10.25 hrs
WU 8:26 am
E
A
E 10:40 S 10:54- 12:53 pm (A 2:28;fussy and crying; patted down; woke up OT at 30( rocked since he was crying)
E 1:12
A
E 2:25
A S 3:18- 4:38 pm (A 2:25; fussy; patted)
E 4:48 pm
A
S 7:05- 7:27 (A 2:25; rocked; fussy and crying)
E 7:28 pm
A
E 8:34 pm
S 8:54-9:30 pm
Yesterday's:
NW 9:30-10:11; 11:25 pm, 3;31 am, 5:30 am Total night sleep: ~10.5 hrs
Woke up at 7:24 gums were sore; nursed him went back to sleep at 7:44 am
WU 8:44 am
E 8:59
A
E 10:26 am
A
S 10:52- 12:22 pm (A 2:08; sing and patted; woke up 10 minutes later crying and banging mouth against cot (teething pain) tried to pat but escalated took him into my arms and fell asleep; woke up again at 40 picked him up again to fall asleep. Probably UT)
E 12:23 pm
A
S 2:49-4:16 pm (A 2:28; cried and fussed; patted ; woke up at 36 minutes crying either OT or teething. Rocked him)
E 4:26
A
E 6:03 pm
A
S 6:43- 7:03 pm (A 2:27: rocked)
A
E 7:38-8:03 pm
A S 8:19- (A 1:16; rocked because still trying to figure out A time)
Today's:
NW 8:55-9:38 pm, 10:01, 12:07, 3:03, 6:27 am
Total: ~10.5
Woke up tired and cranky
WU 8:13 am
E 8:18 am
A
E 9:49 am
A
S 10:31- 11:20 am (A 2:18; sung and patted; woke up at 34; tried shh pat but got agitated. Aaron said he woke up happy; after getting 2 more minutes of sleep he was wide awake. UT)
A
E 12:30 pm
A
S 1:30- 2:54 pm (A 2:10; shh pat; agitated with singing)
E 3:02 pm
A
S 5:29:5:50 pm (2:35; fussy and crying)
E 5:52 pm
A
S 7:14-7:58 pm (A 1:24; sung and patted; took 10 minutes; quietly drifted) right now in the process of resettling.
S 8:14- (Woke up screaming at 16 minutes and 51 minutes and 1:02 and 1:16 minutes when landed on back; tried shh pat after picking him up and resulted in screaming; rocked him for less than a minute)
I know my A times are all over the place. I had him at 2.40 for almost a week but he was getting what seemed OT naps as he would wake up crying and that's when the NW started. So I tried lowering the A to hopefully chip away what I think is accumulated OT. Now I seem to have confused myself and lost my way on what works and what doesn't ???
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Looking at that I'll be honest that there is a few issues I think are contributing.
I think you need to make sure he is not feeding until there is at least 3 hours but more likely 3.5 hours between feeds to get rid of that snacking. I think given how long that had been going on as I remember mentioning it ages ago that is likely contributing.
I also think you need to work on self settling. Is he settling for any naps or bedtime without your help?
Hugs xx
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With the snacking, I was told because he's teething it's common. So I should stop? So you think he's hungry and that's why he's waking up?
He self settles with shh pat; not sure if that counts. How do I go about encouraging self-settling?
Are you saying an A of 2.5 is ok?
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I think it's common to need to odd extra feed but before that I think we blamed a GS and I think it's been going on a while hasn't it?
If you're needing to ssh pat until sleeping then it could be there is a prop issue. The idea is to beable to pop them and down and let them work it out. So you can either ssh pat a little until a bit drowsy then let him do the rest and gradually stop your patting sooner and sooner. Or put him down after your nap routine and leave him to it and only intervene if he gets into a pickle.
I think A time wise 2.5 wasn't enough for him and was giving you OT naps. But if you think the teething is knocking him and he's OT you are better cutting back a bit but I do think I'd be pushing one A time a day at the least.
What's your gut telling you?
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I would also make sure if you think he's looking a feed for comfort with teething it is a good bit before a nap otherwise all those milk hormones will be making him sleepy and stopping him from self settling himself.
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Thank you for the sound advice!
Sorry I attacked you with questions. I didn't intend for it to sound so defensive.
I feel as though my gut is telling me he had accumulated OT from teething and routine upsets. Last night he slept almost 12 hours!! He probably would have kept sleeping but it was 8:15 and I'm trying to be consistent. However, I went by cues at he fell asleep around 2:22 A and short napped 33 minutes but woke up happy according to my hubby. So now I'm like maybe it's a UT nap. My gut keeps telling me he can use a push somewhere but not sure where. I'm thinking the Am. My other thought is consistency to set his clock more. Lastly, it's the Cn and A time afterwards that messes me up. Last night was better in the sense we didn't get any long waking a and I managed to pat him to sleep rather than rocking.
He settles well if I get the A right. Before I started shh pat, I would just sing to him as he settled but then around 4 months I started shh pat since he was having trouble self settling. I do think you are right in terms of it becoming a prop so I can work on gradually patting less so he can learn to self settle without me. I know he's capable because he has done it before.
With the feeding, I try to keep the top up away from the nap but I can definitely work on pushing it closer to the original feed and hopefully no longer doing a top up. I can definitely see how the milk hormones can be helping him sleep.
He's also less than two weeks away from 6 months so he will be starting solids. Hopefully starting solids will help in a small way?