BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: NinNic on October 15, 2015, 20:12:18 pm
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Hi,
We had a long period of broken naps and taking ages to fall asleep at BT, due to learning to walk. Things started to get better, then she was sick for 2 weeks. She is ok now, but again starting to take long to fall asleep at both nap time and BT. Normally it takes her max 10 mins to fall asleep for nap and around 30 mins at BT. She will turn 16 months on Monday. I just can't figure it out. I think she already has long A times and she has just started to sleep better for her nap, but usually around 1.5 hrs and now around 11 hr-11.5 hr nights as her days are longer than 12 hrs now as she won't fall asleep earlier. Before she would do 12 hr days and nights when I got her to sleep 1.5 hrs (would wake up a lot so had to get her back to sleep). I´m worried she will get OT with sleep less than 13 hrs as it seems she needed at least 13.5 hrs in total for a long time now.
We started going to open day care as it is called here on Tuesday this week in the mornings for 1-2 hrs. It is for both parents and babies so we go together. She enjoys it. Could this new activity affect her sleep?
Is there a phase at this age or what am I doing wrong here?
When I put her down for nap she seems tired and also at BT. It's hard to read her specially before BT if she is tired or not as she is busy running around and wanting to play during wind down. She is rubbing her eyes a bit in am and pm, her mood is ok.
I have posted last 4 days of EASY:
Mon:
WU 6:14
S 11:32-13:11 (took 15 mins to fall asleep)
BT 18:32 (took 14 mins to fall asleep (very rare falls asleep this quick)
Tues :
Woke 5:30 fell asleep 5:45
WU 6:43
S 12:07 (took 19 mins to fall asleep), woke 13:29 got her back to sleep 13:33-14:06
BT 19:25 (took 27 mins to fall asleep
Wed:
WU 6:40
S 11:47-13:19 (took 14 mins to fall asleep)
BT 19:00 (took 40 mins too fall asleep)
Thu:
WU 6:33
S 11:51-13:33 (took 16 mins to fall asleep
BT 19:33 (took 52 mins to fall asleep)
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Can someone pls have a look at my post, thanks!
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Hi NicNic
Just letting you know your thread has been noticed and highlighted. Some support will be your way soon - sorry it was missed x
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Hi there! Sorry your post was missed.
I am thinking she might be ot/os from the new open daycare and with the earlier wake up and shorter naps that maybe she needs a bit earlier bedtime. I know with my ot only shows up in crazy silliness not tired signs as one would expect! So when she is running around at bedtime I wonder has she got her second wind and perhaps miht have gone down more easily if bt had been sooner?
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Thanks for your reply!
Maybe you are right that she needs sooner BT. How much sooner do you think I should try with? Do I put her down earlier for nap also and how early?
I´m trying to push so that once day light saving time comes it won´t be that bad. It starts here in 1 weeks time. Can I still push 15 mins at a time? How do I do that if I need to put her down earlier for nap and BT?
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Sorry I have no experience with daylight savings, we don't change our clocks here! The nap would not necessarily have to be earlier for ebt to work...it looks like the day she went down at 6:30 she went to sleep quicker so I would maybe use that as a jumping off point.
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Hi there,
Thanks for your reply. Haven't been able to write as LO has been sick. Will write soon as things are not going too well. Just wanted to ask if possible that she is in 18 month regression (she is 16 monhts now)? Took her almost 1.5 hrs to fall asleep last night. Prevoius evenings around 50 mins. Naps are bad also, also think its due to caughing.
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Sorry to hear your LO has been poorly.
Some LOs have the 18 month regression early, some later. Mine was around 16 months so it's certainly possible.
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Thanks for your quick reply!
How long did it last for and what was it like?
Just feel like the bad naps have been going on for ages also taking so long to settle at BT!
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I think it was so bad I chose to wipe it from my memory. Sleep regression plus teething, plus cold viruses, urgh, glad that's all in the past. Sorry not to be of much help with exact details of how long it lasted (prob about 2 months) or what it was like (hell), there's a support thread here if you'd like to speak with others going through the same.
18 month sleep regression support thread-part 3
And we can help you here with routine tweaks if you want to post what's happening now.
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Like creations I also don't remember much about that time with DD1 (the only one who I am sure hit the regression!) but I know it is totally possible for it to start early, every child is so different so they don't always follow the same pattern.
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Hi again,
Found some time to write finally. Things are out of control so really need some advice. LO has had a nasty virus infection with cough. She is still coughing, but I don't believe it is only the coughing keeping her awake for sooooo long at night anymore. These are our last days of EASY:
Thu:
WU around 7
S 12:00-13:36 (took 14 mins to fall asleep) woke 12:48 pat her fell asleep 12:52
BT 19:39 (took 1 hr 20 mins to fall asleep)
Woke 23:15 coughing crying and crying fell asleep 1:45
Fri:
WU 6:05
S 9:15 (cried so pat her took 17 mins to fall asleep) woke her 9:34 (did short CN here as she woke early and not enough sleep at night)
S 12:11-13:48 (took 24 mins to fall asleep) woke 12:48 pat her fell asleep 12:55, waking up few times after so stayed and pat her when she was moving around
BT 18:40 (took 30 mins to fall asleep, which hasn’t happened a lot in a long time- think cause she was so tired)
Woke 22:40 coughing DH pat her fell asleep 00:45
Sat:
WU around 6:50
S 11:31-13:21 (took 16 mins to fall asleep, put to bed a bit earlier as so tired), woke 13:07 pat her fell asleep
BT 19:12 (took 1 hr 22 mins to fall asleep, was crying a lot had to go in and sit with her and pat also
Woke 23:15 coughing at first then crying and crying for 3 hrs!!! Nothing was working finally fell asleep 2:20 with some patting
Sun:
WU 6:55-11:44 (took 10 mins to fall sleep, put to bed a bit earlier as tired)
My questions are:
1. Do you think this is 18 month SR? I have checked her teeth and it's not teething, I can't think that it is anything else except coughing, which shouldn't take her so long to settle once her coughing has settled at night. It has never been this bad only when she has been really sick.
2. How do we deal with her crying in middle of night as nothing seems to help?? We have tried WI/WO for BT in past but that does not work with her she just gets more worked up and upset and takes ages for her to calm down. Even patting her for so long does not help as she is still upset, only seems to work when she is ready to calm down herself.
3. I don't want patting to become a prop, but I have done this so long now specially to resettle for naps. Is this a prop now?? Can I do something else to resettle?
4. When she is upset and crying at BT we go in and sit with her and pat if needed until calm or until asleep if really upset. Is this ok or do we do something else? WI/WO does not work as I mentioned.
5. If she does manage to sleep through her nap it is not more than 1.5 hrs, only if she wakes in middle and I have to pat her to sleep again I can get her to sleep around 2 hrs by sitting there in case she starts waking again, which is really not fun! How do I get her to nap 2 hrs or might this never happen?
6. How do we deal with her not getting OT when she is sleeping so few hours at night now and still naps same in the
7. Do you think I need to increase A in morning? Can that have anything to do with NW? We are on 5 hr A in am and around 5.5 hr in pm. Just thought 5 hr A was enough as she rarely sleeps through nap when A was around 5.25 hr even 5.5 hr before I cut to 5 hr A. Confused with A times now as she is grumpy and sleeps so little at night with long NW's. What do I do?
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I'll do what I can to answer some of your questions
1. Do you think this is 18 month SR?
Yes it could certainly be. Can't say for sure of course. Part of the 18 month regression is that teething is often on and off around this time and you can't really know for sure that teething isn't playing a part, the 2nd year molars can be moving for ever before they finally come through (I had a year of non-stop teething pain here, only 3 days rest between the canines and the molars, those 3 days were bliss! ...and really showed that an independent sleeper really just wants to be asleep, when they are in pain they just cannot do it, no amount of help is too much IMO). Another aspect of the 18 month regression is a big language leap, I do remember that (around 18 and 21 months), terrible sleep and then suddenly new words pop out. Yet another aspect is that around birthday and half birthday (so 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5 etc) sleep and mood often goes crazy, there is nothing to 'fix' it, only to know you are not the only one with a child who goes through it and to be as calm and patient as possible.
2. How do we deal with her crying in middle of night as nothing seems to help??
Through teething, illness, developmental leap or half birthdays there isn't much you can do to make her calm or make her sleep, all you can really do is be there for her. It may appear that patting doesn't help but knowing you are there with her means a lot to her. I'd probably set up a comfy chair in the room, pick her up and have a cuddle for as long as it takes. If you're dealing with 1hr+ and suspect it will continue I'd be tempted to prepare a flask of tea for the night shift. If it is super bad I would probably take her out of the room for a little while and see if she'll calm. Mine has only come back downstairs after BT maybe 4 or 5 times in his life but during teething there was literally nothing could be done other than to distract him from his pain with cuddles and low key (calm) kids TV which I'd pre-recorded. It's absolutely not something I'd do every night but it helped here on the very worst of the teething times.
Sometimes I took mine out of his room and just went and sat on my bed, the change in location seemed to help him calm down.
3. I don't want patting to become a prop
I wouldn't worry about patting being a prop. The amount of NW you have and the length of them means there is *something* going on which she needs support through. Tweaking times on your day routine may help with the patting at nap time.
4. When she is upset and crying at BT we go in and sit with her and pat if needed until calm or until asleep if really upset. Is this ok or do we do something else?
I seem to have a memory of lots of BWers saying they had taken their LOs into their own bed during the 18 month regression. I might have done it myself a few nights (I'm trying to remember if it was the 18 month regression, think it must have been), the regression is such a crazy time, it's like all bets are off. I didn't take mine into my own bed as a matter of course, but more like a few times when things were really bad. They need a lot of comfort.
But, yes it's ok to sit with her and pat her.
5. If she does manage to sleep through her nap it is not more than 1.5 hrs, only if she wakes in middle and I have to pat her to sleep again I can get her to sleep around 2 hrs by sitting there in case she starts waking again, which is really not fun! How do I get her to nap 2 hrs or might this never happen?
Maybe 1.5 hrs is just her natural sleep time.
7. Do you think I need to increase A in morning?
I would set the nap time regardless of what time she wakes. Usually LOs over 1yo and on one nap do better on a set nap time.
I think I'd try to reduce the last A time though, has she always done a longer A time to BT or is this because of where her nap is??
With an 11 to 11.5 hr night she needs to be going to bed more like 7.30pm really for a 6.30/7am WU, in which case the nap needs to move much later to prevent an even longer A time to bed...unless as I say she's always preferred a super long A to BT.
Maybe:
WU 6.30/7
(roughly 6hr)
nap 1.00 - 2.30
(roughly 5hr)
BT 7.30
What do you think? You know her best :)
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Hi,
Thanks so much for your advice! :)
I feel she needs total sleep of 13-13.5 hrs in 24 hrs. If she sleeps 1.5 hrs for nap and only 11 hrs at night it is on the low side for her. When I do get her to sleep 2 hrs for nap it seems she does better length at night.
1.Do you really think 1.5 hrs is enough for nap for 16 month old who is not LSN?
I tried set nap at 11:30 when she was waking around 6-6:30 am or even earlier and it didn't seem to work too well meaning she would still wake early for her nap. She seems to get tired earlier in morning and have longer A time to BT. I have tried to put her down earlier many times, but she seems to still do 5.25-5.5 hrs A time. If she is tired like she has been for past days because of NW or when sick she does shorter A to BT.
2. When she wakes after 1.25 hrs for nap or even earlier is that not due to OT as I can get her back to sleep usually by patting?
3. Do you still think I should increase her morning A time, which is now around 5 hrs? I think 6 hrs is a lot for her. Or do you think that if I push morning A then A to BT will be naturally shorter?
Before her NW BT was around 7:30 pm. As it is taking her so long to fall asleep at BT, BT varies a lot at mo. I do feel she needs at least 11.5 hrs at night so around 7 am-7:30 pm days would be ideal.
I´m just a bit worried as I pushed her too much when she transitioned to 1 nap when she was 1 years old. She became OT and slept around 10-11 hrs at night which was not enough for her. She was then having 5 to even 6 hrs A time in morning, which was way too long. In beginning she would do long naps of around 2 hrs for a while, but then it all came crashing down it seemed. I think because of OT or maybe it was a developmental thing around 1 year I'm not sure, but she was waking early in morning for a long time. So thought it was better to have around 5 hr A in morning for her.
4. Do you think I should have same A time to BT if she sleeps 1.5 hrs for nap as for 2 hr nap?
5. How do we deal with her not getting OT when she is sleeping so few hours at night now with NW?
Thanks in advance :)
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I may have read this incorrectly but the information you have given seems to suggest she was doing this:
WU 6/6.30
set nap 11.30 - 1pm (as you said she was still waking early from nap I assume around this time)
BT 7.30pm (you said it was 7.30 before she started NWs)
Is this right? Was this the set nap time an set BT you had?
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Sorry if not being clear. I tried set nap back in sept at 11:30-1 pm with WU around 5:30-6 am rather than 6:30 and BT would be around 6-6:30 pm. She would do around 11.5-12 hr nights when she slept 1.5 hrs for nap. She has since then been sick a lot and woken later in morning, which meant I could put her down later so she would still have 5 hr A in morning, which has led to:
WU 6:30-7 am
nap after 5 hrs A 11:30/12:00-13:00/13:30/14:00
BT 5-5.5 hrs after A in afternoon (around 6:30-7.30 pm, varies though as she has been ill and when not ill many times taking her so long to settle)
She was waking early from nap when she had over 5 hr A in morning usually so that is why I stopped set nap. She can still wake early from nap with 5 hr A (feel its better though compared to longer A) but might be because of illness or developmental I'm not sure anymore!
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I think I would just set nap and BT and let her self regulate.
I'm not sure I've seen a thread where a toddler didn't do better on a set nap and set BT although that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means I wouldn't really know how else to help.
For clarity, I wasn't suggesting a direct leap to 1pm nap but to move there over a period of days.
It may even be that if you set nap at 12.30 and stuck there with 7/7.30 set BT (I don't mean to fluctuate between these times I mean to choose one and stick there, if you think 5.5hr A time suits her better to BT then I'd go for 7.30) she could get used to the times and self regulate, meaning if she takes a 1.5hr nap then you just get her up, if she takes a 2hr nap then you let her. You would still do BT at the same time, 7.30pm.
She would need time to settle into this. Once settled into it she would likely show you if her nap is at the right time by her mood and sleep times. She'd be able to sleep as long as she wanted at night and as long as she wanted at nap...and really that's all the sleep she will give you.
when she transitioned to 1 nap when she was 1 years old. She became OT and slept around 10-11 hrs at night which was not enough for her.
Just going back to this. This sounds very normal to me. LOs often get OT during nap drops, it's just part of the process really.
then it all came crashing down it seemed. I think because of OT or maybe it was a developmental thing around 1 year I'm not sure, but she was waking early in morning for a long time.
And this sounds very much like birthday time behaviour. We see sleep disturbance or mood/behaviour changes in LOs of every age when they hit their birthday 1, 2, 3, 4... and every half birthday too 1.5, 2.5, 3.5...
It wasn't necessarily your routine, it's just how LOs are with all their developments and growing and phases of equilibrium and disequilibrium.
Sorry she's been so poorly, it's no fun for anyone is it? And it results in you being so unsure about her routine and so on. Mine teethed his entire second year, it was awful, it does pass though.
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Have you seen this?
Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When
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Hi and thanks for your reply! :)
Thanks for the link, yes I have read it in the past when doing set nap. :)
Just to clarify, do you think she needs more than 5 hrs A time in morning, which she is on now, as 12:30 nap would mean 5.5-6 hrs A depending on when she wakes in morning? Would longer A in morning make her more tired in pm so she would need less A in pm? I have seen here that some need longer A to BT than in morning so just thought LO was also in that category, although I know many have longer A in morning and shorter in pm like you say. I'm just confused... ???
Do you believe her broken naps are due to OT or UT? I just thought it was OT when she usually wakes after 1.25 hrs or less and I can usually get her back to sleep sometimes can take a long time though? Do I try to get her back to sleep when she has slept 1.25 hrs?
Last night she woke around 3:15 am coughing a lot and took almost an hour to settle. If she sleeps in in the morning do I let her or wake her at 7 am when she has had long NW? Do I also put her down for nap at set nap time or a bit earlier if I see she can't make it?
Teething for a year does sound awful! Was that all the molars and canines or even more than those? This cough is not going away so no it is not fun at all as it is mainly at night it comes!
Thanks again! :)
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Set naps and BTs are not about A times so whilst you wouldn't choose something extremely early or late you would set somewhere reasonable (nap 12.30, BT 7.30) and just stick with it. If you don't this this is suitable then how about nap 12 and BT 7?
She would need time to settle into this. Once settled into it she would likely show you if her nap is at the right time by her mood and sleep times. She'd be able to sleep as long as she wanted at night and as long as she wanted at nap...and really that's all the sleep she will give you.
Have you taken her to the doctor about this continuing cough? Do you think it may be an asthma related cough or something of that sort? Really if she is coughing every night it can't be expected that she sleeps through.
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Today WU 6:45, nap at 12:18, had to resettle her as she woke early from nap, woke 14:13, BT asleep 7:05 pm. Today she has been quite grumpy, might also be OT from NW, developmental o WW which is starting also.
With NW would you put down for nap a bit earlier if very tired?
Her cough is due to virus, which a lot of toddlers have at mo here and I´ve been told it can take up to 1 month with cough to go away. Doctor won´t give anything for it as it is a virus. They don't recommend cough mixture for babies and toddlers here.
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During illness routines do go right off. You are in a position where you are trying to set a suitable routine and deal with this cough at the same time, which does happen with LOs, they can't just give us one thing at a time can they?
As she does not seem super ill in the day I would go for the 12.30 nap with possibly just 15 mins earlier to take the illness into account. Generally with set naps and set BT you stick to the times but do keep an eye on a bit of flexibility if they are ill or had an unusually stimulating or physical activity as a one off thing.
She does have the opportunity to sleep later in the morning or longer for nap so you are not depriving her of any sleep.
I don't give cough medicine either, horrible stuff IMO, but I just thought if it was lingering a long time maybe an asthma related cough or something in her bedroom causing a cough in the night??
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Hi,
Thanks so much for info! :)
Just few questions as haven't had time to post properly yet. Her cough is better now, but think her canines are on the way. Last night she was ok going to bed at BT but after about 35 mins in bed she started really crying like she was in pain. Took 2 hrs to fall asleep, which was at 8:40 pm. She then woke 11:50 pm crying so much, gave her pain killers and some other things we have for teething, took her over 2 hrs to go back to sleep. I can't think of anything else causing her pain. Her gum doesn't look swollen yet but can it still be teething causing pain?
She woke this morning at 8:15 am. She has only had 9 hrs sleep at night. Do I put her down normal nap time (at mo its around 12:15 pm). Was thinking of putting her down for 12 as she seems tired). Also she is starting baby swimming this afternoon so want her to get a good nap before as it starts 2:20 pm.
DoI put her to bed earlier if she is really tired from baby swimming and also as she hasnt had that much sleep in the night?
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Yes it can still be teeth even if you can't see them moving or red gums.
Sounds like you have a good plan for today, hope the nap works out for you and you all enjoy the swim class.
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Thanks! :)
Do you advice snything else accept pain killers for teething?
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At the worst times of teething I used ibuprofen and paracetamol, spaced out so they were roughly 2hrs apart, but always follow the dosage guidance. I would likely give ibuprofen before BT when he had not long eaten and to help him get to sleep and save a dose of paracetamol for in the night or as a dream med.
Otherwise chewing on plastic toys, teethers, frozen muslin cloth (damp and put in freezer for LO to chew on), stick of celery, chill-able teether, hard foods such as bread sticks
Sorry I know of nothing else to advise. I know people use teething powders and teething necklaces but I didn't.
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Hi there,
I´m back again.
Thanks for your previous info! :)
I have a few questions regarding EASY we are on. I have posted EASY below.
LO is now 17 months old. She has had some NW since I last wrote can be due to teething or SR. She is still teething and I can see one of canines coming through. In general she is very moody lately so I assume it is teething related. She also had her 10th WW. Not sure if she is still going through 18 month SR or if teehting is factor of NW or maybe EASY needs a tweek? 3 hr NW seems very long though!
I´m aiming for EASY that looks like this, which you advised:
WU 6:30/7am
S 12:30 for 1.5-2 hrs
BT 19:30
As it takes her long to settle for BT I usually put her to bed a bit earlier so she has bit more than 30 mins to settle.
My questions are really:
1. Do you think I need to tweak her EASY as it seems to take her long to settle for nap? If so, what would EASY look like?
2. Do I not resettle her if she wakes after less than 1.5 hrs or 1.5 hrs nap? I assumed she needed 2 hrs nap to be rested but maybe this is not the case? She seems to be fine after 1.5 hrs nap usually.
3. Do I need to wake her in morning around 7 am to keep EASY more or less the same? Also when she has had long NW?
4. Can the long nap on Wed have led to such a long NW?
5. On Saturdays she needs to be up at 1:55 pm for us to get to her swim class, which means she would sleep less than 1.5 hrs. Do I put her to bed a bit earlier at BT?
Mon:
WU around 8 am as had NW
S 12:47 took 22 mins to fall asleep, woke 13:29 pat to sleep 13:31, woke 14:09 pat to sleep 14:15 but moving a lot and woke again
BT 19:02 put to bed 18:45 was crying stopped after a minute or so
Around 2 am heard her talking fell asleep again
Tues:
WU 6:27
S 12:21 took 10 mins to fall asleep, woke 13:59 seemed grumpy and tired so got her back to sleep 14:16-14:25
BT 19:18 took 30 mins to fall asleep
Woke 5:15 am (might be because of coughing) didn’ fall asleep so pat her fell asleep 6 am
Wed:
WU 6:42
S 12:31 took 10 mins to fall asleep, woke 13:57 pat her back to sleep 14:03-14:50
BT 19:35 took 40 mins to fall asleep
Woke around 11:15 pm wanting to play might have been teething too but was not crying only when we left her, she wanted us to pat her fell asleep 2:10 am
Thu:
WU 7:10
S 12:46-14:15 took her 20 mins to fall asleep
BT 19:08 took 20 mins to fall asleep crying when put to bed then stopped after 1 minute
Talking a bit around 11 pm don’t think she woke fully
Talking 5:50 am fell asleep again
Fri:
WU 7:04
S 12:46-13:58 took 24 mins to fall asleep, tried to get back to sleep for 25 mins
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Hi :)
I'll see if I can answer your questions
1. Do you think I need to tweak her EASY as it seems to take her long to settle for nap? If so, what would EASY look like?
10-20 mins to fall to sleep at nap time is reasonable. Mine always liked to stay up until the last few mins, very short wind down and then asleep almost instantly but not all toddlers are the same, many do take 20 mins to fall to sleep and that's just their nature.
2. Do I not resettle her if she wakes after less than 1.5 hrs or 1.5 hrs nap? I assumed she needed 2 hrs nap to be rested but maybe this is not the case? She seems to be fine after 1.5 hrs nap usually.
1.5hr nap is fine, it is still a restorative sleep. you might find after the 18 month regression or after the teething that she returns to more of a 2hr nap or maybe settles right into the 1.5hr nap. Really either is fine at this point.
3. Do I need to wake her in morning around 7 am to keep EASY more or less the same? Also when she has had long NW?
I think I would wake her at 7am yes. If you want the day to be predictable then starting with a predictable WU time is helpful. You may find that waking her at 7am helps with her falling to sleep more readily at nap time or that nap increase to 2hr...and you might not but it's worth sticking to 7am WU for a little while to see what happens. If she has had a really terrible night due to illness or obvious teething I might let her sleep in one day, not too late, maybe 7.30am. However if she has NW and there is no illness or teething then I would stick to 7am WU because otherwise if she is having UT NWs you will only perpetuate them by letting her sleep in. Hope this makes sense, you have to make the call based on what her NWs are like and if she is in pain. I wouldn't regularly let her sleep late though - if she regularly wants to sleep late and is not having NW then the routine needs a tweak as her night is not long enough for her.
4. Can the long nap on Wed have led to such a long NW?
Yes maybe. It did go over 2hr even though there was a WU in there. At this age there are so many things that can disturb the night, sometimes you may be able to see the cause and sometimes not. Try not to get too hung up on one bad night but look across a period of a week or two weeks to see if real changes need to be made.
5. On Saturdays she needs to be up at 1:55 pm for us to get to her swim class, which means she would sleep less than 1.5 hrs. Do I put her to bed a bit earlier at BT?
I would put her to bed a bit earlier yes. Probably about 30 mins.
Good luck :) I remember how exhausted I was when my DS was between 12 and 24 months (oh ok from 0 - 24 months!!), I think he teethed the entire year but for 3 days! The good news is that the 18 months regression, the teething and this year do not go one for ever. It really does get better!
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Hi and thanks so much for all advice! :)
Usually it takes her about 10 mins to fall asleep for nap. Do I put her down a bit earlier if taking longer to settle as that is the case at mo?
So I guess I should leave nap at 12:30 pm when she wakes at 7 am? You mentioned before that she might need 6 hr A in morning, which would mean 1 pm nap time.
She woke early this morning around 6 am and couldn't get her back to sleep. She had less than 11 hr night. Do I still put her to sleep at usual nap time and BT also meaning more than 13 hr day?
Yes it is so exhausting! I'm very glad to hear it won't last forever!! I thought things would get better after 18 month regression?!
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If there is the odd day where she wakes early or takes longer to go down for a nap I wouldn't change anything, just keep going with the set times. If it's every day that she's waking early (looks like it is not as there was some later waking too) or every day she is taking longer to settle for nap then things may need a small change. Looks like she is taking 10 mins some days and more like 20 mins other days to go to sleep for her nap. I wouldn't think 20 mins a major concern but if it is constantly then I'd prob go up 10 mins later and see if she will go to sleep faster, she may or may not, some just like their time to fall to sleep.
So I guess I should leave nap at 12:30 pm when she wakes at 7 am? You mentioned before that she might need 6 hr A in morning, which would mean 1 pm nap time.
Really either is fine so long as you are consistent. If the nap needs to move later I'd go in 15 min increments, so rather than moving directly to 1pm I'd move to 12.45 and see how things pan out. What you need to bare in mind is that the later her set nap the more disrupted her routine is when you have swim class. Set routines work better when every day is the same.
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Thanks for quick reply! :)
Yesterday her day looked like this:
WU 5:54 tried to get her back to sleep didn't work
S 12:32-13:46 no point to get her back to sleep as going to swim class
BT put her to bed at 18:25 as she had short nap fell asleep 18:47
She woke this morning at 6:20 (still early but maybe because BT was earlier last night). She was playing and saying mummy and daddy all the time for nap time. She was still awake at 12:56 pm so I went in and pat her and she fell asleep at 13:00 woke again 13:36 got her back to sleep 13:40 woke 14:32. Guess I should just wait and see what happens for a few days, what do you think?
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Hmmm, sounds a bit OT but it could be as a result of her swim class and needing a day to catch up with her routine.
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Hi again and thanks for your reply! :)
I'm kind of confused and fed up with my LO´s nap. For a long time as mentioned before she is not sleeping full nap and also taking long to settle. Now I can't even get her back to sleep when she normally wakes after 1.25 hrs. She just does not want to sleep. I do feel she is not gettting enough sleep. She is a bit grumpy and fussy but think mainly because of teething but might also be because OT but not sure. In all she is now usually under 13 hrs per 24 hrs.
This week she did sleep 1.5 hrs for 2 days, which hasn't happened for long time, but then back to shorter naps again. Nothing is consistent with her I just don't get it! She is also taking long to settle at BT, maybe because she is OT? I do put her to bed earlier for BT when she doesn't take full nap but still doesn't fall asleep earlier, which means she doens't really tack on with lost sleep during the day at night.
I feel when she wakes earlier than 7 am she goes down for nap easier, but like today when she actually woke around 7 am it takes too long for her to settle. Is she not tired enough for nap maybe so that it needs to be pushed? I know she is not consistent in waking early, but maybe she is sleeping a bit longer in morning as she hasn't slept her full nap instead of showing sign of waking earlier?
Today when she fell asleep 12:58 pm (6 hrs A) she slept full nap and woke at 14:30!
Do you still think I should leave her nap at 12:30 pm? She will only have 2 more swim lessons at 2:20 pm, last one in 10 days.
I have posted last days of EASY below.
Sun:
WU 6:40
S 12:22-13:41 tried get back to sleep didn’t work
BT 19:20 put to bed 18:35 as didn’t sleep full nap still took long to fall asleep
Mon:
WU around 6:30
S 12:44-14:14 (took 25 mins to fall asleep) first time in very long time slept for 1.5 hrs without waking!!
BT 19:25 put to bed 18:58
Woke 1:45 am crying a bit fell back asleep after about 10 mins
Tues:
WU 6:55
S 12:33-14:01 (took 14 mins to fall asleep)
BT 19:42 put to bed 18:57
Wed:
WU 6:05 tried to get back to sleep didn’t work
S 12:32-13:49 (tried to get back to sleep didn’t work)
BT 19:14 put to bed 18:29 as didn’t sleep full nap still took long to fall asleep
Thu:
Heard her 6:15 fell back to sleep
WU around 7
S 12:58-14:30 put to bed 12:21 was playing and talking etc finally went in 12:54 and got her to sleep
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How old is she now?
I think I would just move nap 10-15 mins later (so set at 12.45 rather than 12.30) and keep BT at a set time rather than changing it each night. I'd only bring BT forward a little if the nap is substantially shorter.
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Thanks for quick reply!
She is 17.5 months now.
Seems like she does good with 5 hr A after 1.5 hr nap. Not sure if I should aim for 7 or 7:30 pm BT. Maybe 7:15 pm if she has nap at 12:45 pm for 1.5 hrs?
Is 1.25 or 1.5 hr nap ok at her age? Just seems that so many do at least 2 hr naps.
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I tend to just expect LOs who have always done 1.5hr naps to continue with that and those who have done 2hr naps to continue with that. Their sleep cycle length has changed by this age though. I am always amazed by LOs who can do a 3hr nap!
Maybe 7:15 pm if she has nap at 12:45 pm for 1.5 hrs?
Sounds like a good plan. I would just set it at 7.15 and see how it pans out over time. For LOs to settle into set naps or set BT they do need time to get used to it. if it turns out after time that WU is too early you could try to move the whole day on by 15-30 mins for example.
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Thanks for your advice!
How do their sleep cycle change by this age?
Does it take much more than a month to settle in to set nap and BT? She has had set nap at 12:30 for over a month now, but still wakes early from nap.
Wouuld nap under 1 hr be considered short nap?
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Usually 1 hr would not be enough at this age, but there are always exceptions!
Setting BT may help with both the nap length and night length. The key is for LO to learn when sleeps come so she can start to self regulate how long she sleeps for.
How much over night sleep is she getting now?
How do their sleep cycle change by this age?
Babies have a cycle of (usually) 40 mins but by about 12 months the cycle length has lengthened to that similar to an adult. If you often see her wake at 1hr she may now have a 1 hr sleep cycle and not transitioning for some reason...could be a little UT.
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Usually overnight 11.25-11.5 hrs sllep.
Normally she wakes after 1.25 hrs for nap. Can this be OT as well?
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That's a pretty good night length, longer than mine did.
It could well be that the night plus 1.25 nap is enough for her - does she seem happy on it?
I mean it's quite low for total sleep but some LOs are just like that and IME it's better to accept if they are doing well on it or you'll drive yourself nuts trying to find extra sleep for her that she doesn't want or need.
Of course if you feel she is not doing well on it then that different.
Normally she wakes after 1.25 hrs for nap. Can this be OT as well?
Well, I can't say for sure but I would have though more likely UT than OT. The set BT may help.
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What is usual sleep per 24 hours for her age?
I think 1.25 hrs is def on the low side, I would say 1.5 hrs is minimum for her, but I just don't understand why she can't sleep 1.5 hrs or more without waking up!? Specially now that we have been doing set nap and BT for a while.
She has been waking at night lately again, can be teething or SR don't know anymore, maybe I should just stop investigating as it's draining as it is! She is def moody this morning. Slept 1 hr 10 mins yesterday for nap and didn't have time to resettle as we needed to get to swim class. Slept at 7 pm but woke shortly around 11 pm, but resettled then woke around 5 am I had to resettle, which took a while so in all not enough sleep.
Shall I keep trying to resettle when she wakes early from nap as I don't think nap is long enough?
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BT doesn't look like a set time. In your EASY it seems to range from 6.30 ish to 7 ish to 7.30 ish. On a set BT you would put to bed at the same time every day.
You might find that the routine settles more after the swim classes have finished, having one day per week where nap/routine is different doesn't bother some LOs but for others it give enough inconsistency for them to be unable to get into a steady routine.
If she needs a slightly later nap time to help her transition into another cycle and get a longer nap then this creates more inconsistency when it comes to swim day.
Rather than trying to resettle from the broken nap I'd try a W2S to catch her before she fully wakes, and a slightly later nap time.
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Thanks for quick reply!
Do you suggest nap at 12:45 pm and BT 7:15 pm for now as you suggested even with 1.25 hr nap?
How do I do W2S?
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Do you suggest nap at 12:45 pm and BT 7:15 pm for now as you suggested even with 1.25 hr nap?
Yes, you'd just start somewhere and stick with it until she settles into it. If it turns out not to be suitable you would tweak the set times. This means moving them but then sticking with them again, set times do and can change over time but not daily or weekly the way A times change. It's very hard to judge where a tweak is needed until you've been on set times for a decent length of time.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
if you need more help with W2S let me know. The time you go in can be adapted to your LOs usual WU time, I'd suggest the option 1 on naps first and maybe at around the 1hr mark or just before to catch her before she fully wakes.
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Thanks for advice!
So yesterday it took her long to settle for nap, fell asleep 12:56 then woke after 30 mins so couldn't do W2S. Today I did W2S patting her after about 1 hr but she woke after 1 hr 8 mins and when finally got her back to sleep she woke after 3 mins when she started coughing then no luck getting back to sleep. She has started coughing a lot today.
Do I continue with W2S or might it be disturbing her waking her instead?
Broken naps have been going on for over 6 months now, since around June. I'm really wondering why.
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It sounds like she's coming down with a cold if coughing is waking her. do you think?
I would continue with the set times unless she appears to be really poorly and needs to sleep at a different time.
W2S is disturbing for some, you can try the other method of just slightly disturbing her earlier in the cycle which begins a new sleep cycle. This is also covered in the same link above.
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Hi again and thanks for advice,
She did have a cold, coughing is better.
She has turned 18 months and it is taking her long to settle specially for nap. She is talking ssaying mummy and daddy a lot and just being wild in bed I have been doing W2S as you suggested.
I've had to wake her for nap twice so BT won't be too late. If she wakes past 2:30 pm she won't fall asleep for 7:15 pm.
Do you think I should keep nap at 12:45 pm and BT 7:15 pm for now even though taking her long to settle? Also do I wake her from nap even though she falls asleep so late to keep BT 7:15 pm?
Feel she is developing a lot so maybe SR?
Fri:
WU 5:28 (think woke from nightmare) tried getting her back to sleep didn’t work
S put to bed 12:16 as woke early fell asleep 12:33-13:54 tried get back to sleep didn’t work
BT put to bed 18:48 fell asleep 19:12
Sat:
WU around 6:55
S put to bed 12:23 bit earlier as swim lesson fell asleep 13:04-15:05 woke her as otherwise BT too late
BT put to bed 18:53 fell asleep 19:44
Sun:
WU 6:43
S put to bed 12:30 had to pat her as crying a lot fell asleep 13:14-14:28
BT put to bed 18:45 fell asleep 19:17
Mon:
WU around 7
S put to bed 12:30 fell asleep 13:01 woke 13:56 got back to sleep 14:01 woke her 14:41 otherwise BT too late
BT put to bed 18:45 fell asleep 19:41
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Looks like you're getting a bit of nap resistance there. Is that how you feel?
How about putting down for nap later, maybe for S at 1.00 - 2.30/3.00 and then later BT, say 7.30/7.45 or even 8pm? This cuts into her night a little but it looks like she's doing that anyway.
The alternative is to cap her nap by moving it later but still waking her at 2.30 if you think she can cope with a shorter nap - some LOs can, some can't. Mine needed a 2hr nap and a shorter night all the way up to dropping his nap at 2.5yo whilst other LOs will do well with a capped nap (getting shorter and shorter as they get older) and longer night. Really it is down to how she is best rested.
I remember a big language leap at 18 and 21 months. It does throw sleep off but at the end of it really nice to hear those words, especially mummy and daddy :)
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Thanks for quick response! :)
I dunno so hard to know if she is really tired by time I put her down and she is just going through a period. If I put her down for 1 pm and she still resists nap, what do I do then?
Would really like to keep BT no later than 7:30 pm if possible. She seems ok with nap for 1.5 hr. In that case 1-2:30 pm nap would be ideal.
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I'd try the slightly later nap at 1pm, either she'll still resist and you will know that you have to start wind down much much earlier and let her take her time or she will resist less and be more ready for the nap making the process feel less of a struggle.
You might also try some additional exercise in the morning, some need that to feel tired enough.
If the later nap doesn't work out you can just return to how it was before.
If her nap does need to move later you might need to cap it and as she gets older cap it shorter and shorter (this can be done by putting her down later and waking at the same time) to maintain BT. As I said before some are fine with this, some not so. Honestly I didn't want DS's BT to be 8pm but the reality of it was much better than a crabby kid all afternoon. We got into a nice routine where we didn't even notice the later BT until we had to move it early due to nap drop, then it seemed like the evening went too fast! Everyone does this slightly differently so it's about looking at others experience but also looking at your own LO and family and finding what's right for you :)
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Thanks for all advice.
Today put her to bed later and she still took long to fall asleep at 13:10. I know she was tired after running around a lot in playground when got home around 12, but still wanted to try put her to bed later as you suggested. She was still talking a lot when put to bed.
Do I just keep nap at 12:45 as this seems to be developmental or even earlier if taking her so long to fall asleep?
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I would do nap at 1pm.
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Just worried she won't be getting enough overall sleep as will be less than 13 hrs, which I don't think is enough for her. Only will she get 13 hrs if she does fall asleep at 1-2:30 pm and at 7:30 pm- 7 am.
Today she ended up sleeping for 1 hr 10 mins so decided to put to bed bit earlier as she seemed tired after short nap, but still fell asleep 7:24 pm.
Should I just stop worrying about her getting less sleep than she needs and taking long to settle?
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After dropping to one nap around 12 months mine briefly did a longer night, say 12 hr, even 13 a few nights but once he settled he was back to his regular 10.5/11hr nights with a 2hr nap so I suppose I don't consider 13hrs sleep in 24 to be too low.
If she resists nap and BT there really isn't a way to make her sleep more.
She's 18 months now which is a time when most experience sleep difficulties, the 18 month regression can be very hard on some.
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Thanks for your advice!
Does this mean that 12.5 hrs sleep in 24 hrs is normally enough?
You mentioned earlier that if nap 1 pm doesn't work I should go back to how was before, how do I know if it's not working?
Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it!!!
Merry Christmas!!
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how do I know if it's not working?
I think it will be obvious, no?
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At 18 months we were at roughly 12 hours in 24 with DD3, now down to 11/11.5 so it is entirely possible that is all she needs. Tbh I would just set nap and bed time (and only shift them if something seriously goes off rails - illness, really bad night etc). We can only set the stage for good sleep habits, it is up to the lo whether to sleep or not.
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Hi there, i think at this age we were getting an 1.5 hr nap and 13 hour days, so for us day was WU 6/6.30am nap 12.45/1pm and BT 7/7.30pm if it was me it stick to nap a bit later at 1pm and then she might just go straight to sleep and not mess about, then up by 2.30pm and BT 13 hours from WU.
It is a pain age for sleep and we had bad sleep from 16-21 months really with SR, language explosions etc. Just try and stick to a routine as best you can and maybe go with the flow a little as sometimes I think we as mum obssess more than we need to and kids will be ok if sleep is a little short here and there :)
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Thank you so much for all you advice! It really does make me a calmer first time mum to know that it is ok and to not obsess about her sleep so much and that it may be a looong period of developments and SR!
I will stick with nap at 1 pm and BT 7:30 pm and see how it goes.
Merry Christmas to you all!!
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Merry Christmas to you too, things always go a bit haywire over Xmas too so just try and enjoy it and not worry too much about sleep.
My DS is 3.5 and this morning (my first day off) decides he's full of beans at 5.40am ::)
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Merry Christmas to you too :)
My DS is 3.5 and this morning (my first day off) decides he's full of beans at 5.40am
Don't you just love xmas excitement ::)
I have every confidence DS will stay in bed asleep until 7am lights-on tomorrow morning, even on the big day, but perhaps I am over-confident. We'll see :D
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I envy your confidence ha ha....I have no such faith!! ;D
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Merry Christmas! Lol creations - my kids have never gotten up any earlier on Xmas day either but DD3 has been waking early, shrieking the house down and then going back to sleep (leaving the rest of us wide awake!). We had a talk last night and this morning I hear her quietly talking to her dolls.
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Hi :)
I'm back again!
LO is now 19 months. She was sick for a while then things were going ok for few days- sleeping around 11.5 hrs at night and 1-1.5 hrs for nap. Day would look like this:
WU around 7 am
S 13:05-max 14:35
BT around 19:30-19:40
Usually I need to put her down around 12:45 so she has time to fall asleep and seems to fall asleep 13:05. For BT normally takes her about 30 mins to fall asleep. For past few days it is taking her longer than 20 mins to fall asleep for nap. I have gone in and pat her past few days as she won't fall asleep on her own, just don't want her to fall asleep so late for nap so that it will be even shorter than it is now. Is this wrong? At BT it is taking her longer to fall asleep than usual. She is in all getting less than 13 hrs per day of sleep. Before she was on about 13.5 hrs of sleep and then it seemed to have gone down to 13 hrs, now even less. Is this normal in such a short period of time? She is doing around 11 hrs at night now or even bit less. However, before I had the problem for months of her sleeping so little during the day (less than 1.5 hrs almost always), now she sleeps longer, but I feel I can't let her sleep past 14:30 or she will have trouble falling asleep at BT.
We moved nap to 13:00 as you suggested, but it can't be time to move it even more already? Is this maybe developmental? Just let it pass or do you think I need to tweak her times?
She is grumpy or should I say having tantrums, but that has been going on for a while so don't know if it is because she is more tired because of less sleep.
I have posted last few days.
Thanks in advance for any advice! :)
Sun 24 Jan:
WU 7
S 13:05-14:30 put to bed 13:47
BT put to bed 19:02 fell asleep 20:00
Mon 25 Jan:
Woke her 7:05
S 13:09-14:36 (woke her) put to bed 12:48
BT put to bed 19:05 fell asleep 19:47
Tue 26 Jan:
WU 6:30 or earlier
S 13:06-14:30 (woke her) put to bed 12:46
BT put to bed 19:06 fell asleep 19:47
Wed 27 Jan:
WU 6:50 or earlier
S 13:12-14:42 (woke her) put to bed 12:47 didn’t fall asleep playing around pat her 13:09
BT put to bed 19:05 fell asleep 19:55
Thu so far:
WU 6:45 or earlier
S 13:11 put to bed 12:45 didn’t fall asleep playing around pat her 13:09
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Hi :)
How about trying the nap 10 mins later but wake her at the same time at the end of the nap? So she will be a bit more ready for the nap as it comes a little later but she doesn't sleep into her A time, the nap is 10 mins shorter. For some LOs this way of shortening the nap little by little over time works well as they make their way towards dropping the nap altogether (some at 2yo some much older, even 3yo+).
As she takes 1 - 1.5hrs nap don't let it go past 2.30 ish so she is still getting an option of 1hr to 1hr 20, hope that makes sense.
Keep BT the same for now, she might be happier to go to sleep at night with that slightly shorter nap.
Mine actually couldn't cope with the above method of capping the nap, some don't, mine had a 2hr nap every day but nights were more like 10.5hr and gradually got even shorter until the nap was gone.
What do you think? Think this is suitable for your LO to have a little shaved off the day sleep?
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Thanks so much for quick reply! :)
It makes sense, so nap at 13:15 instead of 13:05? But now she is almost falling asleep at 13:15 but still taking long to fall asleep at BT!
Just feel it is so soon moving nap again as when I last wrote nap was at 12:30 when we you said to move it to 13:00. Maybe she is one that won't be napping for long!
Would you say waking earlier in morning is also sign of needing to move nap?
So not developmental you think?
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Would you say waking earlier in morning is also sign of needing to move nap?
I would think so, yes.
but still taking long to fall asleep at BT!
Well, maybe BT can be 10 mins later too, so she'd be put down about 10 mins later but fall to sleep around the same time she is doing now, just less time fussing and settling. BT may go more easily (even without moving it later) when you wake her regularly at 2.30 rather than waking her at 2.40pm.
Sometimes 10 mins can make a difference.
I knew some LOs IRL who have dropped their nap by 24 months, it is not unusual in my area, my DS was more unusual by continuing to nap until 31 months. So, maybe your DD will drop the nap earlier rather than later or maybe not, it could be that she ends up at 3yo still having a 30 min nap in the afternoon - I wouldn't want to make any predictions.
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Thanks for all advice! :)
I will try with 10 mins later nap at 1:15 pm and put to bed at BT at same time to start with to see how it goes.
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OK - let us know how it goes, sometimes a little tweak is all it needs to get things running smoothly again but sometimes a bit more is needed. FX :)
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Hi again :)
So I tried nap 10 mins later at 12:55 and BT at same time. First few days she fell asleep late for nap around 13:25 and BT late around 19:50-20:00. She seemed tired and grumpy. Then she started falling asleep around 13:06-13:13 for nap and BT 19:35-19:40. She seemed better. On Friday it changed again started falling asleep later for nap, for past few days falling asleep 13:18-13:25, but BT around same time as before. Waking her at 14:30 for nap and morning 7 or she wakes on her own around 7. I was away Fri and Sat, but put her down for nap today and still fell asleep late. Do you think I should put her down for nap a bit later still? She can fall asleep in 10 mins rather than over 20 mins. What do you think?
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You could but if it is only 20 min I would not worry too much, some kids like to wind down for longer. I would hesitate to wake her in the morning and after her nap as if all sleep/wake times are set by you she has nowhere to tack on if she needs it. When we still had a nap I let the morning wake up be flexible (as possible - not on work days where we had to be up and out).
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Thanks for reply!
It takes her more than 20 mins to settle for nap, more like 30 mins. Thats why I thought maybe I should put her down for nap bit later?
If I dont wake her around 14:30 she wont fall asleep easily for BT. I thought maybe if I let her tack on in morning it would be harder to fall asleep for nap. I used to let her sleep in in the morning before I moved her nap. As her nap needed moving I just thought it was better to wake her so she would fall asleep for nap as its taking her long time to. How long would you let tack on in morning?
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If it was my LO I'd put him down a bit later for the nap but that's based on knowing that when put down at the right time he would just go straight to sleep. Whatever is the usual time for your Lo to fall asleep work that into the time you PD. So if it's usually 10 mins but now taking 30 I'd put down another 10 mins later. hth, of course all LOs are different some like to lie there thinking about the day before they nod off, others like a super short WD and straight to sleep.
Mine never slept late (I wish), how about you just give her another 15 mins to wake naturally? If she is regularly sleeping late in the morning (past 7am) then I'd tweak the routine so that you know you are not always waking her but that she is waking by herself for at least one or the other (morning or nap).
:)
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Hi,
Thanks for quick reply!
I have tried to put down for nap at 13:05 (10 mins later) and she falls asleep somewhere around 13:18-13:25, I wake her 14:45 as she doesn't wake herself. I feel she is grumpy many times when I wake her as if she hasn't had enough sleep.
BT she falls asleep somewhere around 19:40-19:45 when put down 19:05 or have also tried 19:10. She sleeps for 11 hrs, last night was for 11.25 hrs. Total she is getting around 12 hrs 20 mins, which I feel is not enough. Previously when she fell asleep 13:05 for nap she was usually getting 1 hr 25 mins (was waking her 14:30) and sleeping 11.25-11.5 hrs at night. I feel she is going through a phase as she is trying to talk a lot and when put to bed trying to talk and maybe that is why it is taking so long to fall asleep specially for nap time. Could this be the case? She has also been having nightmares. Today she fell asleep 20:01 and said daddy after 5 mins into her sleep (dunno if she woke up or in her sleep). Yesterday when she slept until 7 am (11.25 hrs) she was much happier the whole day.
Do I go back to putting her down for nap at 12:55 like I did before ( it wasn't long ago I put her down for nap at 12:45)? I really don't want her to fall asleep past 19:45 if it can be avoided. I feel 13:25 is a bit too late for nap for her and maybe she does need more than 1.25 mins nap as she seems grumpy? What do you suggest?
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If she's very chatty it could be UT for the nap, you said she was going to sleep quicker with the slightly later nap though so I'd continue with that. If you feel putting her down later might help, more tired, less inclined to chat, goes to sleep more quickly, then I'd do that, another 10 min shift perhaps.
Do I go back to putting her down for nap at 12:55 like I did before ( it wasn't long ago I put her down for nap at 12:45)?
I'm not sure I follow the logic of this. She was refusing to go to sleep and taking a long time to go to sleep for the nap, indicators that she is UT so returning to an earlier nap wouldn't be my first choice.
There is no way mine would have slept earlier than he was ready and if he did agree to an UT nap it would result in a short nap and grumpy boy. I had to give him enough time before his nap to ensure he slept well.
I wake her 14:45 as she doesn't wake herself. I feel she is grumpy many times when I wake her as if she hasn't had enough sleep
Why not let her take a longer nap then?
Mine needed a 2hr nap until he dropped it at 2.5yo. some can manage well to reduce their nap time and add their sleep onto the night, some don't, mine certainly didn't. Without a good nap he was a mess. Maybe that's why you feel she needs more sleep. It's possible she just needs to have a good nap and shorter night to be well rested.
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Thanks so much for your reply! It all makes sense.
She did fall asleep in pram a few times around 12 pm recently so had to engage her to prevent it, thought if she was tired at that time maybe moving her nap to 1:20/1:25 pm was too late. However when she has done that it has been after swim class and when she has been in pram for a while, still she wouldn't fall asleep quicker or earlier for nap, so like you say maybe not really ready for nap earlier.
If she falls asleep for nap 1:20/1:25 pm, should I just let her sleep until she wakes? If she sleeps for 2 hrs means she would wake around 3:20 pm, which is very late. Right now she falls asleep around 7:45 pm if I wake her 2:45 pm.. If she falls asleep after 8 pm isn't that too long day? I prefer she falls asleep around time she does now.
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In my experience on the boards people often look at how much sleep in 24hrs and try to get a longer night (understandably, who wouldn't want a longer night?) but personally, from what I experienced with DS, it isn't just about how much sleep in 24hrs but when and how well they sleep. It was very important for DS to get a full 2hr nap. It was far more important than him having a longer night, he *needed* that sleep in the day. Thing is when sleep needs drop a bit you can't expect a long nap and a long night, not unless you have a very high sleep needs LO.
Mine ended up (can't think the exact age now) on a 2-4pm nap with 8pm BT. That is a very long morning A time and a very short A time before BT (only 4hrs before BT) but it worked for him. Moving nap a bit later doesn't always result in a later BT. I get that you don't want BT to move later, I do, I didn't want DS's BT to move from 7pm to 8pm, it took me a while to adapt and that extra hour dragged to begin with (I was ready for my Y time!) but once we settled into the new routine it was fine and then I experienced the flip side, moving BT back to 7pm when he dropped the nap. Suddenly our evenings together were lost and we had to rush him to bed every night.
Only you can decide how to proceed though, you know her best :)
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Thanks so much for sharing your experience. :)
I will first try with nap and not wake her but let her wake herself to see when she will actually wake herself and keep BT at same time and see what happens. Just hope we don't have to move BT past 8 pm as that wouldn't make sense for her to have less than 11 hrs sleep at night?
Today I put her down for nap at 1:09 pm instead of 1:05 pm thinking she would still fall asleep latest 1:25 pm, but she didn't fall asleep and started tired crying so went in and pat her and fell asleep instant at 1:34 pm.
Funny thing is before she would sleep longer at night around 11.25-11.5 hrs at night, then it changed all of sudden to more like 11 hrs and sometimes does 11.25 hrs. She is really being very grumpy lately and it's very frustrating, I'm just thinking if this is her new personality or if she just is tired. Maybe you are right that she does need longer nap now for some reason.
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Hi, I'm back again.
LO is 20 months. For past 10 days LO has been waking early most of these days around 6 am instead of 7 am, sleeping only around 10 hrs instead of 11 hrs at night. I have tried twice to get her back to sleep in morning but it just doesn't work. I have posted last days of EASY below. I don't know what is going on. She is sleeping her nap later as you advised and when she is sleeping 10 hrs at night I have let her sleep around 2 hrs for nap so she doesn't get grumpy. Also there was a period where she did sleep her nap and didn't wake early into nap, but now that has started again after about 1 hr 10 mins so I have to get her back to sleep. She can be very grumpy in am and I think it's because she is tired. Yesterday she couldn't fall asleep on her own at night. Had to pat her and in all it took her 1.25 hrs to fall asleep.
Can you give any advice, do I need to do any tweak in EASY or do you think this is developmental? I just don't understand why she is waking early and not sleeping her 11 hrs at night!?
I really appreciate any advice you can give!
Wed:
WU 5:58
S 13:22-15:01 woke 14:43 got her back to sleep 14:45, woke her 15:01
BT put to bed 19:12 fell asleep 19:42
Thu:
WU 6:55
S 13:29-15:04 woke 14:37 got her back to sleep 14:42
BT put to bed 19:10 fell asleep 19:45
Fri:
WU 6:15
S 13:23-15:26 woke 14:35 got her back to sleep 14:37, woke her 15:26
BT put to bed 19:12 fell asleep 19:41
Sat: we were away visiting family whole day so nap time I can’t usually get her back to sleep when she wakes early from nap
WU 5:58
S 13:32-14:53 had to pat her to sleep as she wouldn’t fall asleep
BT put to bed 19:04 tossing and turning started crying 19:50 pat her fell asleep 20:20
Sun:
WU 6:24 or earlier
S 13:29 put her down 13:12 started crying 13:27 think very tired pat her
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Hmmm, thinking...
Is she still sleeping through the night ok even though it's shorter?
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Yes she is sleeping through.
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Hmmm, ok, well, I'm not sure.
I have in mind that she might have gone through the 18 month regression earlier than most and that this disturbance at 20 months could be a language leap usually seen around 21 months but I would have expected NWs along with the BT reluctance and nap disturbance, as she's still STTN maybe it isn't this language leap at all.
So, perhaps teeth? Anything on the move? 2nd year molars perhaps?
Could be a blip, cold coming on perhaps. Has she had jabs recently? (I forget when they get them without looking it up)
Some times when it's not obvious it's worth just waiting and seeing what happens next.
I'd be tempted to leave her routine as it is and see if she comes through this in a week or so. The other option I can think of is to cap the nap and see if her night lengthens, and then see if she is in a better mood with the longer night, but it's not going to happen immediately, after all you've had some short naps and didn't mention she was happy so I assume she wasn't.
Sorry I don't have a clear answer for you.
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Thank you so much for your advice. I checked teeth and yes there seems to be 1 on the way.
Do you think I should cap nap or leave it while she is teething, let her have around 1.5 hr nap and not more? Yesterday I woke her after around 1.5 hrs nap, woke 5:40 am this morning (10hrs sleep) and today she woke after 1.5 hr nap.
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I think I'd just wait it out for now and see how this teething goes. Waking early (5am something) could be discomfort from teeth, LOs tend to wake around this time if anything is bothering them. Hopefully her night will lengthen again.
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Hi :)
Thanks for your advice!
LO has since a week been crying when putting her to bed at night and also for nap most days, have had to pat her to sleep. Think it is SA. She has also been falling asleep later than usual (around 8 pm or a bit later compared to 7:40 pm). She is still waking around 6 am or a bit earlier except from this morning when she woke at 6:55 am ( she fell asleep 8:15 pm last night. She has been ill during this time but she is better. I have been letting her sleep for max 2 hrs for nap when sick, today I woke her after 1.5 hrs ( she fell asleep 1:42 pm instead of 1:30 pm which she usually does maybe because she woke later than she usually has for a long time) still fell asleep at 8 pm.
Usually she would sleep 1.5 hrs for nap before being sick. I feel her energy level is back to normal after being sick.
Do you think I need to tweak her EASY?
Is it ok to pat her during this SA time? She won´t accept anything else, just crying.
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You could try nap and BT 15 mins later with the 1hr 30 nap rather than 2hrs. This might help her be tired enough at sleep time to be less upset about it. I would probably just see, try for a couple of days.
Sometimes they need to be really tired to nap when teething. An extra 15 mins might help, and/or pain meds about 20 mins before sleep time if it's bad.
Is it ok to pat her during this SA time?
of course :) Always support when she needs it. If you think she would settle better after a good cuddle then go ahead and pick her up for a cuddle, then back into bed and stay with her if she's having a tricky time.
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Thanks a lot for your quick reply! :)
She woke 6:22 am this morning. Today I put her down for nap at 1:30 am cried a bit when put down but calm after and fell asleep 1:50 am. I will put her down 7:30 pm tonight and see what happens.
Is it normal to nap so late at her age of 20 months or might it be lack of activity? We always go out in morning for activity, maybe we go out too late so we need to go earlier so she gets more stimulated. We are usually out of the house for min 2 hrs at least. In afternoon we usually go to playground if weather is ok unless I have to do other errands.
I'm not too sure if teething is affecting her ATM.
She is also waking quite frequently lately at night screaming think she is having night mares so I have to resettle. Maybe this is normal at this age?
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Is it normal to nap so late at her age of 20 months or might it be lack of activity?
Certainly physical and mental activity helps to get them tired enough to keep the nap either earlier or the right length or less fussy to be put down. Not enough stimulation really can impact but there is usually a limit to what you can provide. Just being out might be enough for a younger LO but for a toddler some needs lots of running, jumping, swimming type activities, mine enjoyed academic type things and this made him more tired (colours, shapes, numbers, letters) - so a balance of the two types of stimulation.
I honestly can't think off the top of my head what time mine napped at 20 months but he woke early, say around 6 or 6.30. I do remember he ended up on a 2pm-4pm nap for a long time (8pm BT) and might well have been on this at 20 months, he continued that routine right up until he started the process of dropping his nap completely.
The night screaming could be night mares, could be developmental leaps (mine always shouted and screamed in his sleep and woke in the night when he was learning something!). As you have been offering an earlier bed time but she's taking a while to go to sleep I wouldn't expect it to be OT causing the NWs, it's not like you've been giving a super long A time before bed or that she's missed lots of day sleep.
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Hi again and thank you so much for your advice! :)
Since I last wrote nap time has been a bit later around 1:45-1:50 pm for 1.5 hrs and BT every night SA so have to pat to sleep around 8 pm, She was waking a bit later in morning around 6:10-6:20 am compared to around 6 am for few days. I feel it is not much later and she is tired as only getting around 10 hrs per night. I do think it might be teething waking her earlier and also dreaming as I can hear her crying in sleep until she wakes up fully.
Today I put her to bed bit earlier for nap as I felt she needed it so fell asleep 1:30 am and BT a bit earlier fell asleep 7:40 pm. I think when her nap was 2 hrs she wouldn't fall asleep before 8 pm and that makes her night even shorter so better to stick with 1.5 hr nap.
How do you think I should go about teething, SA and developmental period? She has 3 more teeth to go so this might take a while and don't want her to be sleep deprived for a long period of time. If she wakes around 6 am is it not too late for nap after 1:30 pm? Of course I don't want her to wake earlier because nap is early, but I don't think it is at around 1:30 pm as it was just recent she used to sleep at 1 pm for nap when she woke around 7 am? Also she is almost doing 14 hr days, which I feel is also too long.
I really appreciate your advice! :)
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Hi hope its ok to pop on here - my ds is 5.5 now but I always remember having a massive blip with his sleep at this age. We went on honeymoon & he was fighting naps, difficult to settle & waking up early too. We tried capping his nap which worked initially but then he got overtired & started NW too & was soooo grumpy all day so we knocked that on the head. Then one day (around 22 months I think) it all stopped, just as suddenly as it had all started, and he settled on a routine of:
Up 6.30-7am
Nap 1-3pm
Bed 8pm
With hindsight I think it was largely developmental - as nothing we did made any difference! Just wanted to throw that in & say you may just have to hang in there & offer an occasional longer/earlier nap or bedtime if you feel your dd is getting overtired. Hth!
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Thanks for stopping by clairebear :) Always welcome :)
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Hi and thanks a lot for popping in with advice! :)
Nice to hear other stories too and that it will come to an end!
Last night she woke 3 times crying. I have started putting down for nap at 1:30 pm and bit earlier BT. Do you think this is ok?
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If it works for her then it's ok :)
I know you are worried about the long day and short night, personally I think there are times we need to just accept shorter nights if LO won't do longer. I know with mine he had to have the longer nap and shorter night. I honestly would have loved a longer night but he just couldn't do it (until he dropped his nap :) lovely long nights ever since.
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Hi and thanks for your advice! :)
How many hours did your LO sleep at night when sleeping nap for 2 hrs?
LO has bit of fever and runny nose today. Since I last wrote she is still having SA at BT, usually falls asleep on her own for nap. She is still crying in her sleep like she is having nightmares and waking from them at night almost every night sometimes few times per night. It is quite easy to get her back to sleep but she usually wakes an hour later again. I feel that she is tired and before BT she is hyper so maybe too tired already? It has been taking over 30 mins for her to fall asleep at BT with us patting her, falling asleep a bit past 8 pm or even 8:30 pm. A while before nap time I've noticed for past few days she is yawning a lot and also rubbing her eyes so have put her to bed a bit earlier and she has been falling asleep at 1:20-1:30 pm (today 1:11 pm probably because she is not well). Yesterday put her to bed a bit earlier 7:15 pm (compared to around 7:30 pm) and she fell asleep 7:46 pm.
Previously she was sleeping around 7:30-7:40 pm at BT when she was having longer nights and also earlier for nap. I do feel she is going through a developmental phase and maybe she has for some time and that is why it's more difficult for her to settle for both nap and BT. I feel like going back to bit earlier BT around 7:30 pm and nap around 1:20-1:30 pm and see what happens. What do you think? I really feel these 14 hr days and 10 hr nights are making her tired and they have been going on for some time now.
How do I tackle when we change to summer time on Sunday best? Do I just wake her earlier in morning and shift everything?
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Mine did 10 to 10.5hr nights and 2hr nap. He continued like that until about 26 months. Then 6 months of the routine being not quite right, shorter and shorter night. mostly the routine was messed up because I felt the night could not be so short and tried capping his nap (big mistake for my DS) and tried occasional no nap days (bigger mistake). At 31 months he dropped the nap cold turkey and moved all his sleep to the night, about 11 ish hours and then settled into 12hr night which he continued from then (just over 2.5yo) to 4.5yo when it dropped a little, 11.5hr on week nights, 12hr on weekends, and now at 5yo we just had another drop in sleep, more like 11hr on wk nights, still doing the 12hr on weekends.
If you feel in your gut you need to move nap and BT then go for it. You're the one with her, you're the one who knows her best. x
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Thanks for your quick reply! :)
That is very useful info thanks for that!
I find it hard to know right now as she is going through SA and it might take her longer to settle because we are there with her. I just felt when she was doing around 11.25 hrs at night and 1.5 hrs for nap she seemed to be good. I guess this developmental phase is messing with her sleep. I do feel that 10 hr night is way to little sleep a night.
Do you know how long SA and developmental around this age can go on for?
Sorry to ask again, how do you deal with summertime change in clock?
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Honestly between teeth, illness, developmental leaps, half birthday and birthday I felt like my DS's sleep was 'off track' more than 'on track' most of that year! I remember only getting 3 days of normality after the canines stopped moving before the molars started, there was just no let up. I also remember the big language leap at 21 months which I've mentioned before, it all kind of rolls into one big thing tbh.
Sorry to ask again, how do you deal with summertime change in clock?
Many people shift 15 mins each day for 4 days to achieve the hour change so either start 4 days in advance or do 2 days in advance and 2 days after. If you need to change faster you could do 30 mins for 2 days. Moving meals is important as they mark out the day just as much as naps and BT do.
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Thanks for info! :)
Does it get betyer with sleep after age of 2?
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Well, the sleep for DS was calmer after 2yo, less pain which was a big help...but he did begin a slowish transition to 1 nap so I can't say that it's plain sailing after 2yo, sorry.
Some LOs hang on to the nap until they are 3 or 4yo, some drop it at 2yo. Whenever your LO needs to drop the nap there is bound to be a bit of a bump in sleep again.
Oh and then there is the birthday and half birthday sleep disturbance, that's pretty common too. DS's sleep goes off around both those times, so 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5 and 5yo have all bee times of some sort of sleep disturbance for us. This doesn’t paint a pretty picture does it, but you know what I think once I knew about the birthday thing I just accepted it, I help him for a little while and then it all settles back down again.
I would say though that overall sleep really does get better. I can remember how unbelievably hard it was with a new born, with an EWer, a refluxer, a teether...yes after 2yo is better :)
If you feel like you'd like some fresh eyes on the routine or for additional info or tips on SA etc please do feel free to begin a new thread. The BW community doesn't often join in a long standing thread and there may be someone out there with the perfect idea for you and your LO. Your LO is quite a bit older now than when you began the thread so even having a new thread with a new age title could bring fresh eyes.
xx
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Thanks again for all advice!
I have a question regarding doing something else instead of patting to sleep. We have been doing this when LO has been going through tough periods like now to get her back to sleep. We are really tired of patting her as it usually takes over an hour at BT every night and also at NW. It's just too exhausting for body to sit there and do it so much. What other methods do you suggest?
Worried that it will take even longer to fall asleep if we start a new method as she wants to be patted most times, but we feel we have to do some change as it is so tiring!
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I think if you're going through a tricky phase then these comforting methods such as patting are generally needed and are going to feel like work for you. You can begin to wean it, so doing less patting, less firm, less frequent and bring it down to a hand on her or just sitting nearby may be enough with some verbal reassurance. TBH though even at 5yo if mine is having a bad night or a tricky phase of development then even at this age he needs the extra support. When he turned 5 he had the usual birthday developmental sleep disturbance which for him usually goes on a few weeks. He is a very good sleeper, totally independent but through the tricky phase he needed support, I stayed with him for longer at BT, put the light off and stroked his head. When I had seen that he was through the phase I asked if he really needed this additional wind down time any more because really it wasn't part of our usual routine and he just said he was fine now so we stopped doing it.
Do you feel this is still developmental or do you think it's time to look at routine again?
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Hi again and thanks for your reply. :)
We tried with what you suggested with less patting but it does not work, she still wants us to pat. She is still crying when put to bed for BT (not nap time), which means we have to pat her. We try to talk to her and just sit next to her, it doesn't work she still wants the patting. I guess we just have to except it is a phase. I just don't want it to become a prop, do you think it can or will she just start going to sleep on her own once phase is over?
I've read that 18 month regression can start later so I think this might be the case for her. She is also still waking crying at night so have to pat her then too to get her back to sleep. She used to wake few times per night, past few nights its been once per night.
I just don't want all this patting to become a prop after all the work of getting her to be an independent sleeper. In the past she has gone back to falling asleep on her own after a phase. This phase seems to be the worst and longest so far apart from teething.
Her EASY looks like this at mo:
WU around 7 am
Nap 1:35-3:15 pm normally as she is moody and tired I thought to let her sleep a bit longer than usual 1.5 hrs
BT 8/8:30 pm put to bed around 7:30 pm, for a period she would fall asleep around 8 pm when nap to around 3 pm and 8:30 pm when nap to 3:30 pm latest when seemed very tired
Yesterday I woke her at 3:15 pm and she didn't fall asleep until 8:30 pm, she was tossing and turning constant for over 45 mins (don't know if this is part of phase or what it is.
I´m trying to get her to sleep by 8 pm so she has 11 hrs instead of 10.5 hrs as it seems she is more well rested with 11 hrs night sleep. Do you think I should wake her by 3 pm to get her to bed by 8 pm or that her natural sleep time is 8:30 pm?
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PMed you honey :)