BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: Jmpratt on December 04, 2015, 01:08:26 am
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I've had lots of help from Martini and Kellyjs a month back so if either of you can recall or go back and read my posts, that would be great. I tried to message Martini directly but am not sure it worked. However I will accept any and all insight!!
I started pantleys no cry around 7 months. I did gentle removal method then weaning from rocking them pu/pd then gradual withdrawal which is finally what worked for us for 1 week until we travelled and then got sick....we began nursing or feeding to sleep again and LO seems back to square 1. Trouble settling at BT and 2-3 NW's. I tried to go right back to gradual withdrawal after she was better but she did not go for it since it was so far from nursing or feeding to sleep. Do I need to got hrough all the steps again with her?
Also, she is stretching out her A times, 4 hours in am and in pm. If she takes long nap in am then it's hard to fit a Cn in and then have 4 hrs of wake time before bed so there's this issue too.
Plus we think she is teething! A perfect storm. I just want to check and see how I can help her get back to self soothing.
Yesterday
WU 745
Nap 11-1230
Nap 4-5 too late, didn't fall asleep in car as I hoped
BT 830, nursed to sleep after crying
NW at 12 and 2, bottle big times and took 30-45 min to settle back to sleep
Nw at 545 but put herself back to sleep
Today
WU 7-730
Nap 11-1215
Nap 230-330
BT 730, nursed, pantleys gentle removal, in crib before completely asleep
Lots of fluctuation. Don't think she's ready for transition to 1 nap yet.
Thanks so much.
Julie
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Hi Julie, nice to *see you again :)
Don't worry, you've been through this before, you can do it again. It'll be much quicker this time.
I actually think your problem lies in the 2-1 transition. Yes she's not quite ready for one nap but I feel we need to tweak the routine a little more for you. I'll post the link about the 2-1 for you to have a read through but basically we need to work towards one nap. In doing that, I would suggest extending that first A then capping that second nap a little more. Even if it's just 15mims in the morning (extending by), then only doing a 45mims CN in the afternoon. Wdyt? A good place to start? You've also got room to increase the length of your day too. It's very usual to have 13hr days during transitions, so we could go that route? It's totally up to you Xx
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
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Thanks for your response Kelly!!
This sounds doable. So you don't think it has anything to do with a sucking sleep association?
Also a few questions.
To extend the am nap, I extend her a time?
Is it ok to feed to sleep for Cn?
You said I've done it before and can do it again, should I be weaning from sleep associations while tweeting nap schedule?
Last, at daycare she has difficulty taking a long nap CN of noise. She has been extending her A times and then just decreased A time between 1st and 2nd nap.
Thanks, very sleep deprived but grateful mama here
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Omt, would this be a sample schedule? If not could you post one that would be a 13 he day with the naps you are suggesting?
Wu 7
Nap 1115-1245
Nap 345-430
BT 8
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I would stop it altogether just like you did last time. You can feed to sleep for the CN if necessary, but ideally if we can find a routine that fits for a few weeks before it needs tweaking again, hopefully we can break the association altogether.
That looks like a good routine. I might bring BT earlier than 8 for now. Perhaps try for 7.30pm for a few days and see how that works. We have got room to extend it more but I'm always wary of extending the last A, I'd prefer to extend either the first or second to try and get a decent nap in without you having to feed her off to sleep xx
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Things are going great!
I put her to bed after 4 hrs A time and she put herself to sleep with no crying!! I was ecstatic. And thought that I could just try to have her CN over by 4 430 and that would work. But I see what you are saying. She slept through except 1x, had to nurse might have been teething but no wakefulness and settled back to sleep easily.
Could you send a sample schedule?
WU 7
Nap 1115-1245
CN 4-430
BT 730
7?
How late is too late for CN? What's a reasonable A time Btween CN and BT?
Thanks so so much. I'm so happy and thankful for your help.
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Yay ;D
The BT might need tweaking a bit as I said, but it think we'll try what you said as a routine to begin with. That looks great. A 4-4.30pm CN will be just fine for a 7.30pm BT. Remember they usually need a shorter A after a shorter nap, so I do think this will work just fine. I had something similar with DD when she started the transition although she did prefer a slightly shorter A to BT than that, but knowing yours I think 3hrs would work well. Remember to watch out for OT NW's in the beginning part of the night. If that happens we'll shorten the last. A a little. Keep me posted ok? Xx
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Great thanks.
In the meantime, LO is just waking up from her nap 11-1pm! I'm very curious how she'll do with a CN after a 2 hr nap. Any thoughts? If she doesn't go down try EBT? I did try this once last week at 6 or 630 and she woke after 49 min and didn't go back to bed til 9. But may be it'll work now after getting back on track.
I'll definitely be keeping you posted!
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So here's how things ended up:
WU 7
Nap 11-1
CN 4-430
BT put herself to sleep at 845 (I started around 815 and she struggled but fell to sleep)
I'm thinking I need to cap the first nap? I was not ready for her to sleep 2 hrs, it's very rare. And I knew she wouldn't be able to from 1pm to BT.
Any suggestions for tweets or do I just keep pushing the first nap back? Cap CN at 20 min?
She rarely gets 2.5 hrs of daytime sleep so it makes sense that she didn't fall to sleep til 4.75 hrs of A time. Or she was ot with just 30 min nap and 7.75 hrs of wake time. My guess was
Thanks
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Yes I had to cap the first nap too in order to get a CN in. It's a bit annoying I know ;)
I would cap at 1.5hrs until we can look at moving the nap further out so it's not such a long A to BT causing you that issue again. I think we're a few weeks off that sticky situation hopefully xx
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Ok I'm realizing that I'm checking in daily and I really appreciate the hand holding. I thought about the fact that I'm needing someone to hold my hand while LO Ned's me to hold hers!
Here's what I'm thinking after today: she is pulling 13 hr days and sleeping 11 hrs. So if this is the case, I can try calculating bedtime 13 hrs from her WU time and see if that's a good window.
WU around 730, give or take bc she rolled around talking in her bed until 745, based on BT, I'll bet it was 715.
Nap 11-1225 (she woke herself up probably bc she hadn't been up as long)
CN 4-430
BT 815 (tried at 730, not tired and wanted to get out of chair and walk around, put in crib at 8 and rolled around talking and playing then put herself to sleep after 15) nights crying!!
Overall it went well and it's all more information right?
Did you mean that it will take a few weeks to transition to 1 nap? Sticky situation of late BT or upcoming sticky situation? Just clarifying.
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Sticky situation where the nap is late enough for one nap but not quite, and there's no room for a CN before BT!
That's really good to know that 11hrs is the NT sleep, it helps us try and sort the days out for you. I think we should hold what you did there for another 2 days and see if a pattern emerges? It might be that some earlier waking in the morning might start to happen, we'll just keep an eye on that. Any OT NW's in the beginning half of the night last night that you noticed? That is quite a long A after only 30mins CN, I'm thinking we'll need to shift the naps later soon but I'd like to see how she does for thnext couple of days if ok? Xx
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Yes to EW! 1130 and 2am for the last 3 nights at least. Is that OT? Or maybe teething.
She has put herself to sleep very easily for 3 nights now since I'm basing BT on the 13 hr day. We feed her when she wakes and if we try to rock her or do what I did at BT (sitting next to crib parting bed letting her hold my finger some) she doesn't settle. If she settles she's up again in 30-40 min 😩
Any thoughts on weaning the night fed endings or do you think it's bc of OT and once we get that under control she won't wake?
I don't like feeding her at night but rocking her breaks my back and doesn't work and I'm exhausted to boot.
Any ideas would be great!
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Actually I wouldn't expect this to be OT per se. I'd expect OT NW's to be after the first sleep cycle or two after BT.
Have you tried ibuprofen for teething just in case?
Does she get enough milk feeds in during the day? Just wondering because I wouldn't expect her to wake up after the next sleep cycle again if you manage to settle her without feeding. That, to me, sounds like what a 4-6mo would do when we just try and resettle and we know then they are hungry because they wake again yk?
If you had a prop with the feedings I'd expect for her to wake up more often. Hmmm ??? Xx
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This makes a lot of sense and I've considered it as possibility since I've started to supplement with formula and trying to figure out the right amount. Pcp says splashed on her weight she does not need to eat overnight at least in the middle of the night. But it would make sense if she wakes up 3 hrs after BT feeding for another feeding and then almost 3 hrs later for one last one then sleeps for 5 hrs (which is considered sttn right?). I'm going to add another feeding or another 1-2 oz to her feelings and see if that helps.
We tried Advil or Tylenol at BT to see if that helped but it didn't seem to. However that was before she started settling on her own at BT so I'm going to try it again.
Thanks so much for your daily check ins and responses!! I refer to you as my mommy friend online but more like a mentor. It has meant so much to have this site since I don't have family or friends who do have done this method.
I'll keep you posted!!
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I think it's always nicer having people to talk to on here than IRL. Some don't want to hear all the ins and outs whereas we love the details ;). It's saved my sanity on more than one occasion so if I can pay it forward, it makes me feel great too :).
I'd definitely add a couple of ounces in to the bottle if she's draining them. We want her to stop eating when she's full rather than if the milk has run out. It really will get better soon though, it's so much easier when the milk feeds aren't a factor anymore but I have a feeling yours might like to keep them a little longer than some ;).
I also think once we finally get to one nap things will settle down a lot more. It might be a tricky couple of months, but it's not forever yk? I actually miss the NF's with DD. Once the one nap is in place the NW's and NF's should start to settle down anyway, if not we can always make a plan for that when the time comes xx
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Such a good update!!!
Last few days, LO has slept from 8-8, only waking 1.5 hrs in!! Best sleep in months! I think this proves your theory was right. Trying not to be too hard on myself and just so happy.
She has slept in later and today went like this:
Wu 8
Nap 1-230
Bt 745!!
She was ot so needed some more help going to sleep but has been asleep for 4 hrs now 😊 hoping the night goes ok but know if she's shifting to one nap it might get rough.
She's been going to sleep beautifully on her own the last few nights.
Hard time believing she's transitioning already but it appears that way.
Thanks again, your help is invaluable.
Any thoughts about the 1.5 hr into bt wake up?
More updates soon.
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This is amazing! Yay! ;D honestly this is down to your hard work.
I do think there's a little bit of OT as you said by the end of the day. I wouldn't want to shorten the day much more tbh as there's only so much sleep you can expect overnight.
I think that nap needs to be pushed further out soon. You could wait a couple of days, or just sneak a cheeky extra 15mins in on that first A today? Ideally we want that nap to be closer to 2hrs then I think that'll help with the shorter A to BT and give you a 12-hr day xx
Perhaps in time something like this:
Wu 8
Nap 1.30-3.30
BT 8
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Ok Kellysj! I've tried to write like 5 times now and hoping I get to finish so it this time.
So I think you were right about the WU's being actual hunger. I started giving her a bottle at BT (4 oz) and she had just 1 WU 1.5 hrs in for 2 nights but then slept through til 745-8 both days. Then she started she fling and taking a late nap at 1-230/240 and stayed up til BT. Here's our issue now that's probably the cpsticky situation you mentioned. She hasn't been able to soothe herself after 5 hrs of wake time so I have nursed or rocked her to sleep. Then she wakes bu probably bc of that, one night it was 4 times.
Here was her schedule yesterday and today:
Sat
WU 8
nap 1115-1230
CN 4-430
BT 830 (tried at730 but not tired and wanted to get out of chair, had to rock at 830 no self soothing)
WU at 1130 to eat
WU at 6 to eat, wouldn't settle til 645, back to sleep, didn't want to do this but didn't want her to wake for the day at 630, let me know what you would do
Sun
WU 830
Nap 12-2 (our schedule affected this, I should've kept her up til 1230-1 so nap was closer to BT)
I decided against nap and we would just do early bedtime. She shows no signs at 545 or 6 so I thought maybe she was doing 5 hr wake time after such a long nap. (I also could have capped nap like we talked about. I wanted to try the 1 nap thing if she's trying to transition).
BT 740
Tried at 645 and not interested, couldn't self soothe at 730 so I rocked.
Would l Be to hear your thoughts. I know it's gonna take some time for her to transitiOn. My frustration is that she and I get a week maybe 5 days where she's putti herself right to sleep, sleeping 8-12 hr stretches (1 night of 12 hrs) and then poof back to "square 1" so to speak. It's an important goal of mine to help her self soothe while staying with her. I don't feel like that's happening bc of the changes that can throw her right off.
my question is do other LO's not sttn more than a hand full of times while doing the method?
When would you have tried BT with LO if she named from 12-2??
Thanks so much! Feeling exhausted and frustrated,
Julie
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I am just realizing that there is a second page! I thought my first update didn't post and hadn't seen your reply then either. I know what I did not do right then for the past 2 days, I was going backwards not pushing forwards. Any thoughts about the question about sttn though?
She's been up at 1030 and 1145-wide awake and talking at 1145 🙁 I know the schedule today and my choices have to do with it....but she was screaming like she was in pain and stopped as soon as I came in put her arms up to be picked up and started talking. I can't stop feeling like we're reinforcing that we'll help her back to sleep every time. We still feed her most times of and I made sure she had enough feedings today.
So tired.
Daycare will probably get her back on track and then we'll see.
Thanks!
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Hey Julie, I'm so sorry you're having NW's again :(
I'm wonder if the molars are trying to make n appearance? They can bounce around under there for a little while causing grief before they come through. I remember at this age we had some nightmare type WU's. Only just reminded myself as have just had it pop up on another thread. It may be nightmares but also you've got the 1yo developmental leap coming up too I would suspect?
Ok so the BT bottle is a winner isn't it?! Yay!
So the wide awake screaming thing happened after the one nap day? It's a difficult one to judge wrt your question about STTN as yours has been notoriously bad at it I'm afraid. Yes, we do expect some OT during the transiiton but generally it should be ok to get them back off to sleep as long as the OT doesn't build up too much.
Can you keep an eye on how much ONS she's getting too? Logging all the NW's and how long she's up for too. I want to make a plan where we can find out how much night sleep we can expect so we're not setting ourselves up for failure iykwim?
With a nap of 2hrs at that time I would've tried a 11.5hr day in the early stages of the transition so BT
7/7.15pm. You're doing absolutely everything right, I just want to reassure you of that ok? It's a tricky situation and we all muddle through, it just seems horrendous at the time.
Fwiw I didn't get the right A time for DD last thing for the transition for ages. Actually still don't think I have it right. She's a madam in that she takes 30mins to fall asleep no matter what A time I use. As lomg as she's happy, I just sit downstairs hearing her sing (badly) and only go to her if she's upset. It's just something I've had to deal with.
Ok, yes I do think your routine is going a little bit in the opposite direction, but we need to find what works best for her night sleep. It does seem like the two nap routine is robbing her night sleep quite drastically now isn't it? How well is she going down for naps atm? Is it easier at a certain time? You mention difficulty after 5hrs A, is that just to BT?
Sorry if this is a bit jumbled and has lots of questions! DD seems intent on playing with mummy rather than daddy atm ::) xx
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First of all, you never have to apologize for anything! The help you give and time you invest is very appreciated. Hope you get some rest too!
Yes to all of the things you suggested it might be, teething, walking, talking, dreams. My LO slept through the the night when she was swaddled....then it all changed of course. Are spirited babies poor independent sleepers? She's had a week here and there over the last 6 months but it doesn't seem to stick.
What is ONS? Overnight something?
Here are the last 2 days schedules including wake ups and details:
Starting with Sunday-Monday
NW 1130 fed and right back to sleep
NW 1230 tried to rock, wouldn't settle, finally fed, up for 30 min
EW 515 nursed, took 30 to settle back
Monday
WU 8
Nap 115-235
BT 8, cried for about 10-15 min with me next to crib then fell asleep while holding my finger
NW #1 930, up for about 20 min, tried to settle the same way i did at BT, very distressed, I fed her bc I thought she meant get be hungry, fell back to sleep easily with bottle.
NW #2 12am up for 30-40 min, dad did bottle, didn't settle , crying again, I went in and nursed, back to sleep til 740am
Tuesday
WU 740
Added bottle in am to rule out that f she's still waking for feedings
Nap 1045-1150
CN 225-3
BT 8, crying, seemed more distressed, wouldn't settle by herself, rocked her to sleep
She yawned around 630 but I didn't think she would go to bed that early and tried it the night before and she didn't see tired enough.
NW 9pm, nursed, right back to sleep
So it looks like 2 patterns are emerging: early event WU's from OT? And more wakefulness/ harder to settle at 12am WU. OT too?
Help!
This reply is lots of stuff too but it took effort for me to write it!
Let me know what else would be helpful to know. I got some support from a mommy friend today and am feeling More accepting of where things are and I'm still acting to help her figure it out!
Thanks as usual!
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Ha ha I always get people with that one. ONS is overnight sleep :)
Ok, I think this tells us on one nap days the A time to BT is too long. If we're to continue with one nap days, I think we have to keep pushing the first nap out and reducing the last A to BT.
Even with the short CN ending at 3, I think that too long of an. A too.
Perhaps what we do it increase your length of day and look at keeping the two nap days a little longer wdyt? Is she nearing her birthday? I remember DD went through a period of sleeping a lot more around her birthday. She'd already transitioned to one nap though. I did help someone recently and we managed to keep the 2 naps for a little longer due to the 1yo developmental leap and the need for more sleep. I have a feeling that's what we're going have to do here.
So how do you feel about set naps? It could take all the guess work out of the A times for now? We'd set them where we know she is comfortable, but also be prepared to tweak it. I think if we set them and hold it for a week or so we might be able to see a more reliable pattern? Xx
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That makes sense and sounds better than trying to force it and having terrible bt's and ONS!. What time would the set naps be? 11 and 4?
I tried it today
WU 7
Nap 11-1230 (went easy at 11)
CN 420-450 (poor scheduling on my part)
BT tbd! She is up and it's 745. I'm shooting for 830-845
Tx!!!
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This looks great actually, especially where the naps are. How did the BT go? Any OT NW's in the beginning of the night?
I do think we'll have to play around with where BT needs to be, but it'll definitely help having the other two naps set, so we can just work on one thing. I'm thinking it might have to be earlier than 8.30pm, I would've said closer to 8, but be interested to hear what happened.
Ahhh and you got me this time with the tbd acronym! Had to google it ;) I thought it meant 'total bloody disaster'!! Shows how pessimistic I am ;D xx
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Lol I think the more common acronym is tba to be announced....glad you figured it out. I coulda used yours lots of times over th past year!!
So I agree, 8 might have been better. I was just basing it off of a time but forgot about her 13 hr days.
BT was 850, she screamed for about 10 min and then fell asleep.
NW 930 😔 Rocked and settled easier than usual (normally 1.5 hrs after BT)
NW 130 (normally 1230) nursed and right back to sleep
Ew 330 normally 2/230, screaming, bottle, took about 20-30 min to get back
WU 645 nursed, doused til 715 up for day
You thInk more NW and ew's from late nap?
Btw she's definitely teething.
So her WU's were all an hour off from what she's been doing, and she went to bed an hour or so later than she has for past few days-week. You think she's just in a rhythm? Or hunger signals but not actually ally hungry bc we've added more f the dings during the day.
Thx
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So today....
I told my daycare provider to try for 2 naps as opposed to 1.
WU 645 officially
Nap 1150-1230 (40)
Nap 2-315 (1.15)
BT 745, less than 10 min of crying and then to sleep holding my finger
WU cried out at 805, then put herself back to sleep 👍
So as a was sitting next to her crib, I was giving th Bt's more thought (always right?!).
My first question is if a baby expects to fall asleep the way she did at BT, is she waking up during the light sleep and expecting me to be there holding her finger? I have been wanting to do gradual withdrawal but she hasn't put herself to sleep with the first phase consistently enough for me to move to the next phase, giving her my. Finger only for a few seconds, then just using my words, then moving away from crib, etc.
Do you think his might have anything to do with her WU's? I know you've been referring to OT and UT causing wake ups but just wondered if you knew where things were with how much I assist.
She's done pretty well for 3 nights so I might try tomorrow to do less and see how she does.
Any thoughts on any of these things! Thanks as always
Hope your week is going well and no total or any bloody disasters 😉
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I think that first NW was more related to the long A to BT. At least we know that's too long for her after a short nap. The others could well be teething related now, especially that early morning one. It's when they're in light sleep and more likely to wake because of the pain. Some find a dream med (ibuprofen) works. I've never gotten it right. End up squirting it all over the place. You could try medicating at the 2am ish NW? And see if that helps the EW too.
I'm actually a really big believer that a bubba should go to sleep and wake up in the same environment. So, yes I think some might be a part of 'where's mummy gone'. We'd do the same thing as adults wouldn't we? I also like to tell DD where I'm going ALL the time, even in the day. I've never just got up and left the room. I think it's really important in establishing trust.
Wrt gradual withdrawal, I definitely think this will be the best route for you. Even if you're just sat next to her using your words as well as the finger for now. The BT will be difficult until we can find the right A time, I think it'll get much better when she's not OT by then and with your plan of gradually moving further away.
So today looked good, I'm really hoping the night went well? Only so well it can go with teething I suppose xx
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Never heard of a dream med!! Don't think I would be good at it either. And I'm not even sure if the Advil works! She wakes up 4 hrs after I've given it to her.
Last night was a bit better but still 2 nw's.
BT was 745
NW 805, put herself right back wo me
NW 12, rocked her, no feed! Took 15-20 min and hard on the back but glad to settle wo bottle
NW 545 tried to rock again, settled but woke in crib so daddy gave a bottle, took around 45 min and fell asleep on him (I'm sure bc of how late it was!)
WU 715
Nap 1120-1225 (65 min)
Nap 315-4
CN in car on way home from daycare 530-545, hard to rouse! Ugh
Gonna shoot for 8-815 BT based on 4 hrs of a time, the CN, and 13 hr day
Gonna try to do a bit less at BT. I appreciate the reminder to tell her where I'm going during the day, I do but probably not every time!
There it is, my daily check in!
Thanks
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I think we're actually getting somewhere yk? It's really starting to show a pattern isn't it? I wonder if the night is better or worse tonight after that little CN on the way home. I'd probably do BT a little earlier based on the fact the naps were shorter today but that's me! I'd probably have shot for 7.30pm xx
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Kelly!!!!! We Sttn!!
Here's last nights report!
BT 845, went right down no crying
NW 12 and 3 just cried out and right back to sleep!!
EW 6 cried out, tri d to put herself back, I went an
D nursed, dozed until 650 and up for the day
845-6 not bad at all!!
Best night in months!!!!!
Today
WU 7ish
Nap 11-1245 (I napped and then decided to wake her up at 1245) went right to sleep, self soothed
Nap 330-415 woke her here too, rocked but for l so than 5 min
BT 830, went right to sleep no crying!
Still asleep and hoping she didn't get too much daytime sleep with that first nap
I wanted to write you all day yesterday and today tonshare the good news.
I'm trying to just stay in the moment and not start hoping that it stays this way....expectations are dangerous!
Thank you so much. I'm wondering of course if her teeth are giving her a break, if she's moving through the walking milestone, or if the nap schedule and GW are helping, but I will keep doing my part and help her with the rest!
I can't imagine how it feels to hear that your help works and that your having an impact on a mommy and her LO across the globe.
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Yay!! ;D amazing news. You're my second in as many days, so I'm feeling pretty happy for you both ;)
I think this longer day is really working for you now, that's brilliant. I think aside from the tweak to the routine, this is all your hard work and you should be very pleased with yourself. Honestly, you and she have come so far from where we started. You enjoy this!! Do keep in touch and pop back if anything goes awry ok? Xx
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Thanks for your affirmations!
We're still doing well aside from Daddy putting her to sleep for the second time ever, she cried for about 15 min while he sat next to bed then put herself to sleep.
She woke 12am and 6am last night but I think she was hungry-we have a had time distracting her to drink and we let her snack instead of stretch it out so she has the full bottle.
So 2 questions at this point:
1. What do you think is causing the 5-6 am WU? Hunger, missing us, UT? It's much improved, I'm never satisfied am I??
2. We are traveling for the help holiday. This set us back before bc we started giving her a bottle to go back to sleep. Any tips?
Thanks!!!!!
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It could well be that first nap needs pushing out again, but I do wonder if teething might be patting a part? It's a prime age for it. Does she go back to sleep?
Travelling is always a difficult one as they're usually overstimulated too with the extra people. I would try and just be as consistent as you can be during the time away. I have a feeling we'll be tweaking the routine anyway after the holidays. I said this on another thread too, it may actually surprise you what she can handle. With the extra excitement, they can sleep better at night and for naps sometimes. I remember going away with DD when she was 1yo to this huge family party. Think she was having a leap of some sorts because she took a great nap there and managed to sleep through an actual disco that was on the mezzanine level right outside her room! Not a peep! Does that help any? Xx
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Yes, that helps. I'm just wondering if you would recommend trying to avoid feeding to sleep again or just try to keep the routine and do what it takes to help her if she wakes in the night? That disco story is fantastic. Your DD will love hearing that story when she is older!
I am 75% sure LO is teething, teeth have cut through and are making their way. I gave ibuprofen and orajel but she couldn't settle so I gave a bottle. She woke 2 hrs later and same minus the medicine. She has a hard time soothing when she does wake up. I can't really do the gradual withdrawal for nw's she becomes more distressed. Maybe that means I really need to do it but not when I know. She is in pain.
Last night it was BT 830, nw at 1145 and 2 and then slept til 8.
Just left wondering why she can only sttn 1-2 nights at a time. There is always something. Other babies must sttn more consistently! My toddler did but we used a different sleep training that involved controlled crying with her so I'm always wondering if that was why.
LO only got 1 45 min nap and 1 35 min nap today....we'll see how the night goes.
My toddler (truth be told, I don't know what DD stands for but I think it is the oldest child?!) just woke up from vomiting! A change of pace!
Love this job is even with little sleep!
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Oh bless you, you're always so positive. All bubbas are different. I do know that CC won't help in the long term, as you know we don't really support it here. I think that routine will need a tweak especially if 45mins naps are coming back, but hesitant to change too much if teething. You could try adding 10-15mins onto the first. A and see if that makes a difference?
DD stands for dear daughter, DS for dear son. I think if you have an older one they'd say DD1 and DD2 for example. There's a whole list of acryon,s and their meanings on the welcome part of the forum ;)
I hope your toddler feels better soon xx
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Hello!
Here again! Hope your enjoying your holiday.
After our traveling and an ear infection that has started to be medicated....here we are.
WU 745/8
Nap 11-12
Nap 230/3-330/4
BT between 7-830 depending on last nap
Nw's consistently 1130 and 130 and sometimes 5 or 6am too.
She is going to bed at BT like a pro and knows what to expect! But still wakes during the night. It doesn't seem to matter how much milk she gets during the day. So don't think it's hunger anymore.
Since she got sick, we started giving a bottle at NWs. How do I start doing GW with her for NW's? I'm gonna start reading some of the night waking posts and replies but just. Wanted to check in with you too.
She sttn 2 nights then nw's came back and I fed her automatically thinking well she can sttn do she must be hungry. Just saw pediatrician today and he said she is old enough and weighs enough to sleep 7 straight hours without eating. I know she's teething but want to stop feeding every time she wakes up. Sh screams and flails whe. We don't give her the bottle right away bc she is so conditioned to it. If I try to do what I do at. BT she screa,s and let's me know how mad she is about it.
Obviously I'm gonna wait til the meds start helping with her ear infection.
Ugh! Thanks!
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((Hugs)) we had an ear infection over Xmas too! It sucks. I really wouldn't suggest any sleep training until she's all better I'm afraid. Maybe carry on as you are for a few days until she finishes her antibiotics? Then we can revist xx
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Thanks!! Last. Night was extremely rough, she must have been in a lot of pain.
I'll check back in soon.
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Poor you, we had it too throughout Xmas. It sucks. Medicate as often as you can and make sure she's getting enough water too, that's what my DD wanted throughout the night ::). It might be the AB's dehydrate them slightly. Oh and her poo was awful too.. Just something to watch out for now I've seen it xx
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Hey! Hope you all are getting healthy again! It was awful.
So my LO is almost all better. Has been sleeping better already. Still NW's though. Still feeding.
And stretching A times to 5 hrs these last few days.
Here are the last few days schedules:
WU 745
Nap 11-12
Nap 2-3
BT 8, couldn't self soothe so rocked to sleep
Nw at 3, nursed went right back
WU 8
Nap 12-1
Nap 240-4
BT 9
Nw 1am, bottle and rig.ht back to sleep
Today
WU 7 (couldn't put herself back to sleep, 1 less hour than usual, 10 hrs of OVS
Nap 12-2 (tried 11 but wasn't tired)
I decided to try skipping 2nd nap! I'm really nervous how she'll do especially bc BT has been 8 or later for awhile.
Gonna try 7 BT Tony get which will be 5 hrs A time.
I'll keep you posted.
As for night feedings, help!
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I think we might have to cut them cold turkey now. It will be rough for a few night but it will get better. She's old enough not to need them now. Could you have someone else take over the night shift for a couple of nights at the weekend? It might be easier for them to resettle her than you, as you offer the feed. Perhaps a full shake up could be what's needed? Alternatively if you're up for it, I would stick to it and don't ever back down. Do it once and you'll be back to square one I'm afraid. How do you feel about that?
As the protesting may get quite loud, I'd try and settle her in the cot first using your words. Just don't start something you're not prepared to carry on with like rocking as that'll just be substituting one prop for another iykwim. Try and keep as calm as you can. Use your words as much as possible as they really do understand more than we give them credit for at this age.
I think with the new routine the NW's should lessen in time anyway as I always had a strong suspicion she was UT. I want to also keep an eye on that last A as many bubbas don't like 5hrs either side of a nap, preferring to have one longer and one shorter A or vice versa.
What we have seen is that after a shortish night she can do 5hrs quite comfortably and that yields a 2hr nap. It may be that if she has a better night sleep she might do a bit longer.
The transition does take time and there will be NW's from that anyway, but I think if we just get rid of these feeds once and for all, it'll be better for you both long term. What do you think? Are you up for it? Normally what happens is that the first night is horrendous, second night a bit better, then we usually see a slight regression on day 3 or 4, then it gets much better again (just to for warn you ;))l I'm here for you every step of the way xx
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That's what I thought you might say-cold turkey 😁 I am up for it, just trying to time it right! Thanks so much for the warning and what to expect. And what to do and not do when that time comes.
As far as the 5 hr A time, it happened again today bc daycare did nap 2 from 215-3. BT is not til 830 on a regular basis. She made it ok but couldn't self soothe. What do you suggest when this happens? I end up picking her up and rocking her to sleep, she has slept ok after this even though I'm letting her fall asleep on me. I know it's regressing but don't feel I can expect her to self soothe when I know she's been up for over 5 hrs! I plan on asking daycare if she can make sure nap is btw 3-430.
Let me know any thoughts. I keep trying to move to the next Stage in GW but then the schedule changes.
Oh yes, she had a hard time the night I didn't do 2nd nap. Not as bad as I expected but not good either. Here is where we are:
Daycare
WU 730 ish
Nap 11-12
Nap 2/3-3/4
BT 830ish (normally exactly 13 hrs from WU!)
Home
WU 730ish
Nap 12-2 (I may cap this for now or try to push it later like you suggested)
Nap 4-430
BT 830
Nw's are random- last night was 1230 and then 130, hard to settle, fed still, maybe teething. Ugh. Not sure what else since nw's have been later like 3 or 5 and easy to settle with feeding.
Sorry- rambling now!
Thanks so much for all of the thought and energy you put into helping.
Julie
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Ps. On that first night, is there anything you suggest outside of using my words to reassure? She cries so loud it's hard to believe that will help. I will do it but am nervous that I will want to pick her up, so just not rock, right? I got that. Maybe pick her up hug her then put her back? Again this is for when things get really bad. Snot everywhere, coughing, etc. highest pitch scream imaginable. 😭
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Hiya Julie.
Hmmm, is there any way you can do a slightly EBT on those days when the routine gets messed up? I'd much prefer a slightly earlier wu in the morning than all that faffing trying to get her to sleep at night. Wdyt? Ideally if daycare could move the nap that'll be ideal though. How many days is she at daycare? If it's more than 2 I'd actually think about keeping that 2hr nap as she might need it to catch up. As long as she's not refusing the second nap. Have you noticed a difference to the NW's when she's at dc or at home?
If you feel like you need to pick her up then do it hun. But what we need to make sure is that that again doesn't turn into a prop. When DD used to get particularly upset and my hand on her and words didn't work, I'd pick her up, give her a cuddle and keep repeating my sleepy phrase that 'it's time for sleep now, I'm putting you back to bed'. Lay her down and keep my hand on her just a minute, sshing as well. Do you think that's something you could try? Tbh what I've found now is that my actually picking her up to soothe her when she is that upset, upsets her more ::). Hence battle of me not wanting to out her down crying and her crying because she wants to be put down. I do wonder if that was always the case now looking back! Now she's in a position to tell me properly! Xx
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Kelly! You're so wonderful, always getting back to me! I really appreciate it more than you know, or maybe you do know!
Yes, that kind of comfort was what I was thinking. However, I after tonight, I think my Spirited LO doesn't want anything as it will upset her more.
Here is where we are schedule wise
WU 815 (should've woken her when she stirred at 740)
Nap 1230-230
CN 430-510 (fought some but rocked and fell asleep)
Had to wake her up, later than usual but planned in 9 BT so....
BT, tried at 9pm, she cried and cried, I stuck it out since I was planning on stopping the feedings tonight anyways. She finally put herself to sleep when I covered my face and stopped shushing
At 940.
All I can think of is she got too much sleep, or she understood what I said when I told her no more bottle overnight and that it was going to be hard but I'd be there for her. She is a smart kiddo but I think it's more likely that she was UT bc of 2.40 min of naps that she's not used to.
I haven't noticed much difference in nw's with dc and home, but easier bt's bc less naps. I've considered that she's making up for it on weekends. Ebt has only worked once for us around 7 or 8 months at 6pm. How early? Say nap is over at 2/230 like the last few home schedules? 6/630?
And she can't sleep as long at dc bc of the noise and other kids wh are awake. No group naps there. So would I keep her doing 2 naps there for awhile or ask her to push it back there too? Ugh. So painstaking! Cant remember how things were with my toddler with this transition, so I have to tell myself it's not just bc of my LO spiritedness!
And I look forward to the day she can tell me properly!
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OMT, with last nap ending at 3pm, I can try ebt like 7 (4 hr A time) however, it seems like LO's sleep rhythms are set for 740 WU and 840 BT. Or roundabouts there. I'd love to move that to 7am and 8pm. Do you suggest waking her up early and changing her rhythms? If so, how many days before she adjusts? Roundabouts, not an exact science, right?!
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Another update!
Last nights happenings!
BT was 940 by the time she finally soothed
Nw 5am!!
It took her a whole hour to soothe, I'm guessing since its early morning and she was in lighter sleep? It was pretty terrible, she kept soothing then upset again. I wondered if me being there made it harder but stayed for the long haul!
Slept 6-8am
Today
WU 8
Nap 11-1
CN 4-430
BT 845, cried for about 10 min and asleep by 855
Much. Better!
She ate more today for sure, I'm sure bc she didn't eat overnight.
My next question (imagine that!) is how do I make it so she knows I'm leaving the room? feels like I'm tricking her a but bc I'm there when she falls asleep and then not when she wakes up. Is it GW? If so, I'll play in starting that in a few days once we have this down.
Thanks! Just figured I'd share the ending to the story I started last night! So you don't have to be in suspense 😊
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Please accept my apologies for my late reply Julie, it's my birthday and it's been busier than i expected!
I think you're right in that it was too much sleep on that other day. She may have pulled closer to a 13 hr day or more with that sleep. Today is much better, but i actually want to shift the day a little more as i think that last A to BT is a little long after only a 30mins CN. I would actually like to see that one closer to 3hrs than 4+. wdyt? Also i notice the A time is much shorter today is that right?
What we could do is work on waking her up earlier in the morning gradually?? So try 7.45am tomorrow and the next day, then 7.30am for a couple of days until we get to 7am. that should bring BT earlier and you get your evenings back ;).
Yes, wrt GW you use your words. Soon you'll be sitting closer to the door, then the next stage you tell her mummy is just going to the other side of the door and if she starts, then you can first try using your sleepy phrase from outside the room, if it escalates, then go straight to her and repeat. It starts looking a bit more like wi/wo by then. Hopefully once we have the routine nailed down BT should be easier anyway.
So i want to reduce that last A so we need to add it on elsewhere so your day doesn't get shorter. Can you try adding on 15mins to that first A and onto the second actually too? We're still working on quite low A times for her age, with the routine posted today, the other one should be what we're aiming for i think. But definitely lengthening that second A as no wonder she resisted after a mammoth nap and only 2hrs A. So looking something like this tomorrow, which would be a mixture of the 2 routines you posted...
wu 7.45
A 4hrs 15 (like the other day)
nap 1 12-2
A 3hrs 15mins
Nap 5.15-5.45
A maybe 3hrs? Still might need to tweak this.
BT 8.45
wdyt? Doable? xx
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Happy birthday!!!!! Apology accepted but no need to apologize!! It's your birthday for heavens sake! Hope you enjoyed the celebrations!
I already started waking her up earlier! 740 today 😊 Will keep moving it up.
As for the nap schedule, I don't think the late nap will work 4 out of 7 days when LO is at dc. We pick her up between 5-545 plus most of the kids are getting picked up at that time. Also bc she rarely can sleep more than 1.15-1.30 hrs there. Average is an hour. So without that good nap, she won't make it and doesn't make it another 3 hrs. Days she is home we can do it but then it's not consistent every day.
I'll chat with dc just in cas she might be able to swing it. Again, wo the bigger nap, just not sure.
Last night LO woke at 12 and cried while trying to soothe in the crib til 1:10. BT got easier but still took 1 hr at NW. NW was 5am the first night so maybe she's figuring them all out? We'll see how tonight goes.
Today's schedule:
WU 740
Nap 10:30-11:10 (maybe bc she lost that hour?)
Nap 130-230 (no sure why this happened so soon)
BT earlier! 720 cried for 10 min and put herself to sleep!
I was amazed as she was past the 4 hr mark and has a hard time self soothing when OT!
So that gives me hope that she's getting it. And hope in early BT bc she's been asleep since!
My evening back for now at least!
With WU at 7 maybe routine would be:
WU 7
A. 4.15
Nap 1115-115
A 3.15
Nap 430-5 (this might be more doable at dc)
A 3
BT 8
?
Thx!
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This second one looks great and ideally what we should be striving for! If she does a shorter nap at dc, the second nap could kee at the same A, then allow 45mins nap? That should keep the same BT?? xx
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Ok great!
As for nw's, LO is only waking at the 3 hr in mark after BT. Doesn't matter what time BT is, exactly 3 hrs in she wakes. Last 3 nights it's been this way. First night it took an hour. 2nd half hour, 3rd night 45 min. Any ideas?
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Hmm, usually we'd expect OT wu's to be 2hrs after BT so it's missing that magic window there. The fact she's taking an age to get back down i wonder if she's teething again??
If not, I might try a bit of w2s an hour before she usually wakes up to see if it's just becoming habitual. As it's not early morning, I'd definitely give it a go if it were me xx
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Not wanting to contradict but I know that mine will wake around that 3h mark when OT - or for a whole host of other reasons for that matter :P But discomfort and/or OT will make it much harder for her to settle. Actually she went through a really bad phase of this around 13mo and EBT finally sorted it. Not saying necessarily OT in your case, just that it's not impossible :-*
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Thanks so much both of you for weighing in and so quickly!
I was convinced last night that she was teething and gave Advil. No evidence this morning though. I did the new schedule Kelly suggested today and I think LO mght actually be OT w 4 hrs A time before bed. 2.30 A time tonight and she didn't cry at all. W 4 hr A time, has been crying at BT for past 4 nights.
WU 740
A 4.50
Nap 1230-2 (didn't put herself to sleep. Cried lots, I helped, then capped)
A 3.15
CN 515-550
A 2.25
BT 815 (in bed at 755, playful, talking, soothing for 20 min)
We will see! I'm going to hold off on w2s tonight. If she still wakes up tonight will probably try tomorrow. Such a guessing game! Glad to hear your experience Timbler.
The only other thing I left out is that I let her use my hand when she is falling asleep, I pat on the bed and she falls and grabs my hand and holds it til she falls asleep. This only started last night (she did it back when we first started method but not for awhile bc I started GW) and not the first night I started night weaning last week, it seemed to upset her more.
Anyway, I would think that if this was that much of a prop, she'd be waking more than the 3 hr mark but wanted to ask!
😊
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Thanks for weighing in hun, always appreciated :-*
I didn't realise we had a 4hrs to BT when did that happen? :-[ We did say we wanted to reduce that ages ago didn't we? Especially after the shorter nap.
This routine today looks great! I can't believe you managed to get the last A much shorter and right where we'd like it to be, well done you! It might need stretching to 2.5hrs later on but I would like to hold it for now and see how it pans out. Any NW's?
I've actually just suggested this for someone else too. Would it be possible to change up the position of your hand so your hand is on top? It might be easier to reduce the pressure on top of her hand ever so slightly as she drifts off making it easier in the long run? Wdyt? She'll still have your touch but you work on gently lifting your hand as she's settled and starting to drift off xx
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Hey!
Thanks for the affirmation! We've been doing well, 1 nw around the 6 hr mark which might be when Advil wears off and she's definitely teething. Last night I gave her Advil, orajel, and gave her a cuddle as she was standing in the crib. She laid her head on my shoulder for a minute then laid down and went back to sleep! Amazing!
So she now has another cold, probably teething related. 😩
Do you suggest stopping the training when bubbas get sick or are teething? Not sure how the night will go tonight. I will try to comfort wo picking up and might try giving I her a sippy cup of water unless or until I hear back from you. I will use my judgment of course and comfort her as I see fit.
I've been putting her to bed earlier too which has been helping. Plus she just knows what to expect now bc I've been consistent, at your suggestion! Thank you.
Julie
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Brilliant news Julie well done you.
I will say this, I personally don't do anything else when DD is ill. I try and be as consistent as can be. I use our sshing and hand on her if she wakes in the night. Medicate as often as I can and be on hand for extra cuddles during the day. Extra ones before BT when going through an unsettled period. One thing Tracy said that I always have in the back of my mind is don't start something you're not prepared to continue with, or words to that effect.
There was a time DD had the norovirus when she was 1yo or so i think. Then I had to convince her to go to sleep on me, as she was vomiting quite a bit and I wanted her more upright! Didn't last lomg.. 5 mins or so then it was obvious she wanted to be in bed. I did spend the night on the floor that night though!
I would only offer water now, they can get quite a dry mouth with a stuffy nose. Remember a vaporub on their feet helps (can't remember if I mentioned that before). You've honestly done great this far, whatever you do decide to do we can fix, but try and keep Tracy's saying int he back of your mind ok? xx
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Hello again!
I'm here. LO got alot sicker with a high fever 103/104 after we last wrote. I stuck it out with consistent responses until the high fever and that's what broke me.
I got back on track after 3 nights of being off -track due to the fever plus her fever broke that day. She had trouble but has been getting back on track too, aside from the night wakings still. Might be more teething as usual.
Here's where we are. Her nap schedule got off track a bit while sick.
Tuesday (DC)
WU 730
N 1120-12
n 130-215
BT 715 (went smoothly, I was amazed after 5 hr A time)
EW 6am!! I tried to get her up since she slept 11 hours straight, but fell asleep while I was feeding her and I didn't stop it.
Wednesday
WU 730
N 11-130 (not expecting this, probably making up for some sleep)
N 5-530
BT 9 (DS was up and interrupted routine, LO was probably UT but then had a really hard time when she saw DS enter the room)
EW 4am, screaming, difficulty soothing herself for 1 hour :( I walked out a few times to see if that helped. She went to sleep with my hand the last time I went back in.
Help! Have to run at work now but I think that's enough to give you an idea of where we are.. I"ve been waiting to start putting my hand on her back instead as you suggested until she is not sick anymore :(
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'm so sorry she's been poorly. You tend to just have to go with the flow a bit whn they're like that.
What I have noticed is that was a super long A time to BT on Wednesday after a short nap, I think she was OT there hence the issues.
After a 30mins nap, it is difficult to get the A time right. You could try 3hrs A and see where that gets you? It will be hard atm until she's better as she may just want more sleep, don't fight her. As you can see on Wednesday she had a lovely long nap after a short A time, so I bet she's still feeling off. ust try and keep the last A shorter after a short nap ok? Ovbiously 5hrs is ok after a longer nap for her, but not a shorter one. Hope she feels better soon and well done for remaining consistent xx
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You're so quick!! Thanks!!
This makes a lot of sense to me. I was able to read this before bedtime tonight so I worked to get her down before the 4hr A mark. Daycare does an early 2nd nap bc first nap is not long.
Thursday
WU 745
Nap 11-1210
Nap 230-315
BT 645, went right to sleep, was yawning at 3 hr mark, around 6
So here's my question, what do you suggest doing when she does wake up from OT? What works for BT hasn't been working at NWs, it has taken an hour and she becomes really distressed. And when you do EBT, how do you know if LO isn't waking up after 7 hrs or so bc she is hungry? Ugh!!!
This helps to understand and have a goal to work towards. Also good perspective on the long nap. If she does take more of those, would suggest capping them at 1.5 hr?
Xoxo,
Julie
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Unfortunately there's not much you can do, just remain consistent. She'll sleep when she's ready. It sucks, it really does. But sometimes we agonise about them getting back to sleep quickly, but it doesn't always happen.. happens for us as adults too yk?
I would not think she's hungry after 7hrs at this age. Milk is no longer the primary source of nutrition, so as long as you've offered enough food throughout the day, she's more than capable of going 11-12hrs. I too used to drive myself crazy if DD didn't eat tea or something thinking she'd wake in the night from hunger. She never did really! other reasons, yes, but not hunger.
Well done ont he EBT tonight. We do need to push your day a little though as I will expect an early morning tomorrow given the amount of sleep she's had overall yk? Can dc push the whole day on for you bit? Especially that second nap.. if we can get that at around 3pm for 45mins, that should allow a later BT. I wonder if that super short A there might be causing you issues. And actually that first A is quite short too thinking about it. Maybe those two low A's then a super long A to BT is actually effecting the NT sleep now.
Another option is to accept the early wu at around 6am, do first nap at the same time and still move that second nap to 3pm. Then a 6/6.30 BT would work longish term xx
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So she slept 12 hours last name get after EBT!
WU 645
Nap 1115-1230
Nap 210-320
BT 650
NW 9, right back when I gave her my hand, then I heard gas
NW 1130 pretty quickly back too ??
Today's schedule was pretty identical to yesterday...except she got extremely sleepy tonight around 6, last night she did but not as much as tonight. We were over s friends for dinner or I might have put her to bed earlier, like 620?
Why does it seem like sstn is a fluke when it happens?
Going to ask DC to move naps back for longer A times.
😊
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Yay to the 12hrs! Right we know that A time to BT works, but we might not be able to reply on 12hrs consistently. If you can ask them to push the naps back I think it would really help your day. In any case, in he meantime let's keep that last A xx
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So, fastest way to update you is the schedule!
Sunday
WU 7
Nap 11-1
Nap 430-5
BT 8, GW from hand underneath to hand on her back
Sttn 😊
Monday - I asked daycare to push 2nd nap back
WU 7, grouchy though
N 1135-1205
N 330-415
BT 730, tough to soothe with hand on back, tried EBT bc of short naps to prevent OT and to keep 3 hr A time to BT
Nw 830, sake and crying for 30 min
Nw 12, awake and crying for 1 hour
Tuesday
WU 8, woke happier, maybe she makes up for sleep in the am rather than BT
N 10-50-1140
N 325-405
BT 8, pushed back to usual time even tho 4 hr A time, much easier to soothe with hand on back
Nw 1030 awake for 10 min or less, hand on back worked!!!
And that's where we are!
So my conclusions are
-with only 2 hours of naps, she does 12 hr day, perhaps 8-8
-with 2+ hrs naps, she does 13 hr day, 7-8
- BT needs to stay around 8 for now.
- LO can't sleep longer than 1 cycle at dc right now
My questions
-ok to stretch then 2nd nap out even after short 1st nap?
-4 hr A time better than EBT? My night tonight might help us answer that
-when do you move to the next GW stage? 3 nights or when LO has gotten used to it?
-what's the next stage after she soothes with my hand on her back?
Lightening my hand then touching one time quickly, then sitting in chair next to bed saying words, then in middle of room, then doorway?
Hoping she stays healthy long enough to go through some more stages!! L
😊
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This is great Julie, well done you. This looks like you've figured her out for now, so i'd keep with it! Just keep an eye on the 4hr to BT.. it may catch up with her, but in the meantime let's keep as is.
The one sleep cycle is pretty common in dc I've heard. As long as you work with the 12hr day, I think you'll be fine on those days.
Yes, I always think it's better to stretch out the second nap even with a shorter first nap so you can keep a reasonable A to BT. Otherwise it just get's far too long. I'd keep with the hand on the back, as long as you're using it to soothe rather than her to fall asleep with this is perfectly ok! I'd stay with her with the hand on the back as long as she's upset, then once she's quiet, I'd say your sleepy phrase and that mummy is going back to bed now and start towards the door. If she gets upset, rinse and repeat, does that sound ok? xx
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Thanks! after hating you analyze her routine several times now, I've started being able to myself.
So we're doing ok. She slept 1040pm-730am after Nw at 1030.
So wrt GW,
1. i have only used my sleepy phrase to get her to lay down in the crib, haven't used it when she falls asleep in quite some time. Still able to startups get it now? Said it softly tonight at BT.
2. Are you suggesting going right from hand on back to soothe and saying I'm going back to bed? No steps in between? Or just starting there?
:) :)
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I just like the idea we tell them where we're going yk? Yes, I'd go straight from he hand on the back and once she's calm, whisper that you're off to bed and go to leave. If she starts back up again, return to her, hand on her back etc etc. It will show her mummy is there when she's upset, but mummy really does have to go back to bed too! I still use this on my bubba now so it's setting you up for the long-term xx
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Sounds great.
Yesterday's schedule:
WU 720
N 12-130 (later bc of preschool tour for DS, shorter than I thought)
N 5-540 (later again bc e were visitin friends)
BT 830 (13 hr day with long nap, but seemed OT )
NW 1130, right back to sleep w my hand on hr back.
Slept through til 720
OT?? 2nd A time was too long.
Thx!
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This looks great actually, how's it been going since? xx
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Ok question!
When you suggest patting her on the back and telling her mommy is going to bed, do you wait until she is soothing and almost to sleep? Or right when you put her down in the crib sleepy?
Night 1: she was exhausted and went right to sleep, sttn
Night 2: cried for 10 min or so, then when she calmed I patted and said the phrases
She woke every hour for the first 3-4 hrs and then threw up! But then she seemed to not be able to settle on my chest so I put her in the bed with clean sheets and she went right back to sleep!!
Night 3: she was not tired at the 13 hr mark, got 2.5 hours daytime sleep, was talkative and moving all around, not crying but not settling, I wasn't sure what to do!
I stayed and just kept saying phrases and patting on the bed. Shea's trying to soothe but didn't start falling asleep u til 14 hr mark. G parents are in town and this could have contributed. Glad she wasn't crying but what would you suggest?
Besides capping naps!! In general, do you do steps right say and then repeat until she gets it or do you do them when she's on her way to dreamland?
Thx! Xx
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Another day's information to try and make a conclusion. And of course the night after yesterday's schedule.
So last night was when when BT was 930.
NW 12, 5 min soothed easily by my hand
Nw 2 cried out, right back, didn't need my help
Nw 4 5 min soothed easily with hand
Nw 5, cried out, didn't. Need me
Nw 6 cried out again
Teething, still sick, who knows
WU 710
Nap 11-1
Nap 5-530
BT, 9, didn't seem tired, put in bed when she wasn't drowsy, cried and played around for about 15 min then out pretty easily.
Gave Motrin to try and rule out teething.
Grandparents are visiting, could this make her not want to go to be both nights? Or do you think she's showing signs of not needed the 2nd nap?
I haven't officially started walking out of the room. I do right after she settles to sleep and I whisper that I am.
Will start doing it shortly after putting her down tomorrow night unless I hear otherwise from you! No worries, whenever you get back!
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I do wonder if she's getting rather close to one nap now as the days are getting rather long aren't they? It's totally up to you in what works for your family. But 4hrs after 30mins nap would drive me bonkers!
It does sound like discomfort.. have you checked for 1yo molars? xx
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Hey Kelly! Me again! Need some more guidance!
So LO is still working on the 2-1 nap change. Ever since the first day she took 1 nap at DC, she wakes up between 12-4 and screams bloody murder. It lasts for 1-1.5 hours, I"ve broken down and given a bottle 3 times out of 6-7 days of it. Its awful and I am exhausted and can't keep up this way. I can have my hubby help out some but wanted to check in to see if you have any ideas for either of us.
What I've observed:
I don't feel molars but that doesnt mean she doesn't.
Motrin and Orajel at NW's don't help.
Motrin at BT helps her sleep longer before the NW.
When she gets 2 naps, NW is not as bad.
When last A time before bed is 3-4 hours, she goes to sleep easily.
When I pick her up, she stops crying. But then expects/wants a bottle to go back to sleep.
WI/WO did help her soothe with my hand when I went in the last time. I tried this last night because I was at my wits end and don't want to regress to giving a bottle.
She may or may not be ready to transition to 1 nap!!! ???
I can send along our schedule for past few days if you want it. Basically, she is screaming for 30-60 minutes around 2-3 and not wanting anything but to be picked up and a bottle. Ever hear of this? My nephew who is 1 month ahead of her is doing the same exact thing. Molars? Separation anxiety? Developmental awareness? I sware she is looking at our shadows on the wall when I'm in there.
thanks!!
So tired,
Julie
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I think you may have answered your own question there hun ;). How is the day on 2 naps? Some bubbas don't cope with the fast rapid change to one nap and need 2 with a silly long day for a little while.
A lot of NW's can be developmental, we've just gone through it, however I'm inclined to believe yours might be a little OT on the one nap days if you've noticed a pattern. Let's try and tweak your two nap days a little more. It may only last a couple of weeks but might be enough to get you all through xx
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Hey!
I haven't noticed a pattern-same on days with 2 naps. It lasted less time on the day that last A time was only 4 with 2 naps so maybe it's when last A is too long.
I read a bunch of other moms with 13 month olds and the exact same issue at the same time just and everything. Night terrors or scared of the dark, leg cramps or separati anxiety.....whatever it is, it seems like it's developmental.
I'm open to some tweaks though!
Of course last night she sttn?! Cried out at 2 times but was able to put herself back.
Daycare nap days
WU 7
N 1130-1220
N 230-320
BT 7
Or maybe
N 1130-1240
N 345-430
BT 830
At home we tried to cap first nap but she wouldn't go for 2 one.
WU 7
N 1120-1245
Tried CN at 4 and again at 5
BT 645
Let me know your thoughts!
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On the at home days you may have to cap that first nap a little more. Remember DC is more stimulating for these LO's hence why she's more likely to take a nap. You could try just a 30mins nap at 11-11.30, or even 45mins, then hope for a nap 2-2.5hrs later?? I did this later on in the transition when DD was mostly refusing her second nap and other have found it helps lengthen them being on two naps. However, it does take some tweaking to find the right A time xx
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Hey Kelly!
Long time! I sent you a private message bu not sure it went through or if I had the right name. We are doing well, hence the decreased posts and questions!! LO is SSTN! She figured it out. And so have I. We are. Still working on 2-1 nap transition and I haven't moved to living room while she's awake yet. But we're close. The 2 coincide for me since she's OT I don't want to expect her to learn the new skill. But on DC days she's not OT and in that regard I'm putting it off since she is sleeping well.
Any suggestions for 2-1 with our schedule? I haven't tried the CN at 11 yet.
WU 730
Nap 1230-2
BT 7-730
Daycare
WU 730
Nap 11-12
Nap 330-430 roughly
BT 730-8
No difference in nighttime sleep with schedule but obviously fussy on the 1 nap days and sometimes harder to soothe at BT.
Any ideas why she's only sleeping 1.5 hours on the 1 nap days? We put her down at 1 one day and she still only did 1.5??? She was doing 2-2.5 last month or so.
Thanks!!!
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Yay for STTN :D
It often seems to take LOs a while to lengthen their nap once they get to one nap, sometimes it almost just seems to be a matter of time, and once they're used to it the naps lengthen naturally. However, do be aware that OT can creep in gradually, and a 1.5h nap can actually often indicate OT. I wonder what would happen if you pulled back on that A for a one nap day ever so slightly, and tried 1215 or even 12pm? Perhaps last month she was just so tired from the leap that she crashed out for a long nap, but now she has accumulated OT and isn't quite tired enough to crash for 2.5h but tired enough to wake unsettled at 1.5h?? Does she ever resettle after that 1.5h nap? How does this suggestion tally with your experience of her?
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Timbler!
Thanks for the quick response!
I have considered this idea but haven't tried it. She is a sensitive baby and doesn't go to sleep easily of its not the right A time. Sh has slept longer when she's up longer but your suggestion might really be true. Could she be OT and still STTN? Knock on wood. I will be trying it tomorrow. If she wakes after 1-1.5 hrs, I'll just have to try to put her down for a CN. Guess that's the other reason I haven't wants to try it.
I've also thought about breaking up the nap into 2 like she does at daycare, but that feels like backward movement to me. Any thoughts on that?
Thanks again!
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Well I'm not saying it's a definite, you will have a better idea than me whether it fits with what you're seeing of her, but I think it's possible that she may be a bit OT before her nap, but then you get her to bed early enough afterwards so that she's not too OT at BT and does a good night. I probably wouldn't make too big a change to start with, even 10-15mins earlier for the nap may be plenty to take the edge of any OT. On the other hand of course it may be that she needs a little more A before her nap! I just suggested OT as you said she seemed tired, also on the two nap days she goes down 1.5h earlier for 1h, so I'd have thought she'd really need more than 1.5h when she's going down that much later, iyswim?
I'd generally recommend going for one short and one long nap when heading towards the 2-1, just because you want them eventually on one long nap, but I know that's not practical for some families. If she struggles to get down for a pm CN after a long nap then you could consider a short UT morning nap instead, aiming for a long afternoon nap, but the timings for that can be tricky to find! On the other hand, you may feel that things are working pretty well at the moment so you'd rather not rock the boat too much :) It's quite common for LOs to switch between one and two nap days for a while before finally dropping down to one, my DS for example carried on having two nap days at his CM for a few weeks after he'd dropped to one at home, it helped him to cope with the transition. At some point he started refusing the morning nap altogether but by that time he was ready for one nap every day. HTH?
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All very helpful! So hard to figure out and so very glad I have help 😉
Here's the report from today.
WU 740
Nap 12-150
BT 740
I tried to put her down at 640 but she was not ready and screamed so I read some ore to her and she talked herself to sleep like she usually does.
Very common for her day to be exactly 12 hrs. I just hate that the 5 hr A time! Terrible. Part of me thinks she's gotten use to it since she's talking herself pleasantly to sleep.
She still did just under 2 hrs. Which is the same thing she gets at daycare on 2 nap days so maybe that's all she needs?
Either way I totally understood your reasoning and had thought about doing it myself. Glad to try it and see. Also, I almost tried to resettle her but DS came into room and that was the end of that.
It sounds like she's doing what your LO did with the 2 naps some days and 1 naps others, home. Maybe if she sleeps well, I need to stop worrying so much? And wait for her to be ready for the 1 nap transition that will be longer as you said initially...
Thanks again.
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Haha yes definitely stop worrying if she's sleeping well :P but I completely understand that's so much easier to say than do ;)
I found that interesting seeing her day yesterday - so she had 40mins less A time but napped 20mins more :) If you feel that last A is really too long for her then you could try giving her 4.5h before her nap, ie just 10mins more than yesterday, in the hope that she naps a bit longer and then can manage that last A better? But as you say, it really sounds like she's doing well and she may actually just prefer a longer A to BT on one nap day. Bear in mind that if you're cutting down the A before her nap then she may well need a bit longer afterwards to keep the same total A in the day.
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Thanks so much! LO is transitioning to 1 nap 😊. This past week, she started taking a 1.5-2 hr nap at daycare and this weekend she has taken the same length, 12:30-2:30. She is sleeping through for the most part, was up last night at 1130, hard time settling fully until 130 😩 It could be teeth for sure or the fact that daddy put her to sleep. I was fully expecting her to be up to see me since I put her to sleep every night but a few a month.
She slept til 8 yesterday and 839 today so I pushed nap til 130 and she is still sleeping and it's not 320 so she's figuring it out! Just hope she doesn't start having parties like last night.
Thanks so much for the help and support through this change-lo's keep things exciting don't they?!
I had her now, take care!
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That sounds great, thanks for the update :D sorry about the long NW though, let's hope it's as you said. Expect her to take a little while to settle into a really solid one nap routine though - as you know we're all here to help each other through those bumps :-* But I am thinking that your LO must be 12mo by now? So please could I ask you to start a new thread in Toddler Sleep when you need to? That's how we split up our sleep boards here, although I know I personally didn't really see my LOs as toddlers until a few months after their first birthdays :P time flies, eh? :)