BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: Antie66 on December 12, 2015, 07:51:28 am
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*PLEASE HELP*
I have used the 4-hr EASY routine for 2 weeks (to break breast-sleep association and therewith improve night sleeping) using PU/PD and within days (naps even) we saw great improvements and we only had to use shush-pat. My LO (5.5 months) would go to sleep with only a few minutes of shush-pat (especially during the first morning nap) and nights have been as good as only 1-2 awakenings (during which I feed). I am now experiencing a MAJOR set-back .... Where the shush-pat was very effective in calming, soothing and sending him to sleep for over a week, since about 4 days he simply goes hysterical. Apart from crying (screaming), he arches his back, slings his arm around (he's on his side for the patting, but tries to get on his back, pushing against my hands). When I then try to pat him on his shoulder (front) like I also used to do sometimes, he goes even more mental. I have to say, he did do this sometimes and it seemed something we just got through in a matter of of minute or two and then he'd be asleep, but now it has worsened and just continues. It's even at BT when he used to fall asleep within a minute - it has turned into an hour of screaming! I am so desperate (have been standing next to the cot in tears a lot!) I just don't know what to do and it's so bad that I resorted to putting him to sleep in my bed on the breast (!!!!!) THE very thing I never wanted to do again. It's also getting to the point he seems frightened of his cot, as he now starts crying almost the moment I put him down, sometimes when we enter the room. How do I calm him without resorting to some form of AP? With the PU/PD I used to also pat his back and shush, should I go back to PU/PD but without that? He's still not able to fall asleep alone, he always starts gurning, then mantra crying, then serious crying, but when I then start the patting he just goes even more crazy ... What can I do??? My partner wants to let him cry it out ("everybody says it's just 3 days/nights of crying and then they just sleep"), but I definately don't want this. But I now have nothing that works anymore either (it's like hysterical crying but only with me in the room and it's breaking me!) and he's been waking lots again during the night. Please help!!
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Can you post your routine please so others can look and help? I suspect he might be UT, or maybe he's telling you he doesn't need so much "help". Well done for resisting CIO. There's lots of research now to show it is detrimental to babies. No one here will encourage you to use it.
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Yesterday -
WU 7
E 7.10 (also fed him night before at 3.45am)
S 9.15-10.15
E 11
S 11.50-12.30*
E 3
S 3.30-4
BT 7pm
NW 9.15pm-22.05 (E)
NW 3.30am-3.50
NW 4.50am-6.00 (changed nappy and left his room at 5am and he took an hour by himself to fall asleep)
*He didn't make the transition during his am sleep, so when I went for a (long) walk he fell asleep in the buggy (but woke as soon as we got home). I then tried to put him to bed again at 2pm as he was very tired, but I didn't manage to get him down.
Today -
WU 6.50am
E 7.10 (plus carrot puree at 8am)
S 9.40-10.55
E 11
A baby group, very stimulating ..
S 1-1.45 (fell asleep in the car and I transferred him to his cot 10 min into his sleep)
S 4.30 (after 35 min PUPD / shush-pat over shoulder)
BT 7
It's not been great recently, but to be fair we have had some hectic days. Generally he gets tired bang on 2 hrs after he's woken up, if not sooner. It's more difficult to get him to nap in the afternoon and near impossible at the end of the day (it takes longer to get him to go to sleep than that he sleeps for - usually only 30 min). I'll add a few more days now that we're back in our routine, but I'm starting to feel as if we have to be home all the time - if he doesn't sleep in time and gets OT I can't get him to sleep at all anymore (even when APOP with nursing).
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The night wasn't bad - he woke up at 10pm at which point I fed him (DF without the D). He usually falls back asleep on the boob during this feed and I put him back in his cot. He then woke at 4.45am and I nursed again, but he didn't go back to sleep. At all. I'm not sure what to do during these EW and have tried most things. Feeding him because he would seem really hungry (and it would be a long time since the last feed), changing his nappy in case the wet would be a discomfort and leaving him. When I leave him the cries usually get worse, he can't fall back asleep on his own, but then nothing I do (putting my hand on him, shushing, or singing - or shush-pat or PUPD) seems to help him fall back asleep, or just seems to make him wake up more. Any advice on how to deal with these EW? I now just stuck his mobile in his cot and I can hear him talking to 'his little friends', but obviously he would be better off being able to go back to sleep after a 5am WU (and me too!!).
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Eventually I took him into my bed at 6.45am and he fell asleep on the boob (after which I transferred him back into his cot) until 7.25. I am trying to break the association between boob and sleep (the very reason for starting EASY!), should I not feed him when he wakes up around 10pm or at 4am? He used to wake up around 1-2am sometimes too, but I stopped feeding him then and he hasn't woken up at that time the last nights.
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Hi there, so sorry not much time right now, but just for starters - I suspect he may be a little UT for his first nap, despite showing tired signs he may need a little stretch to get longer naps now. The shortish naps may be making him OT by the end of the day, certainly 3h to BT would do that after a CN :-\ That may be contributing to some of the NWs. I'd still expect at least a couple of night feeds at this age so I wouldn't stop those. With the shh pat, many LOs find the pat or the shh, or both, irritating by his age, his behaviour seems to indicate that he does. You could try just placing a gentle hand on him instead, somewhere he finds soothing, or just use your voice. Have a look at this: Can a baby be too old for sh-pat? and this How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
Will have a look at your routine some more once life has settled down a bit as it may be clearer then :-*
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Hi Trimbler, let me pls update with yesterday's routine
The night before he was awake from 4.45-6.45am, I eventually took him in my bed and nursed him where he fell asleep until 7.25am.
WU 7.25
S 10.10-10.50
E 11
S 12.45-1.30 (he fell asleep in baby carrier and I transferred him into his cot)
S 1.45-1.15 (he woke up after his usual 45 min, but I nursed him and put him back to bed asleep)
E 3
E 6
BT (&E) 6.45
NW (MONF) 11.50-00.05
NW (MONF) 04.15-04.45
WU 6.50
(Next day: S 10.35)
It didn't take long to get him to fall asleep both these am naps, but I wonder whether today he'll sleep two sleep cycles or wake up after 45 min again. The night was definately better, although I'm also a bit wary of getting him used to feeding at night. As long as he falls back asleep after it's fine, but I'm not sure he really needs it and when (like the night before) it doesn't even send him to sleep, it feels like I might be enforcing a bad habit. Thanks for your advice. x
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Tbh I'd probably work on sleep training during the day and at BT, since you don't want to be denying him NFs when he's actually hungry. Keep a record of whether he gets straight back to sleep with the nf or not, as you have been doing, since that may help to indicate whether daytime sleep issues are affecting the nights.
Starting with that first A - I noticed that when he did 2h15mins, he napped 1h; with 2h50mins he did 1h15mins, then with 2h45mins just after a long nw in the early hours, he did 40mins, which I'd guess was OT due to that long nw, wdyt? How did he wake from those naps? Screaming/crying or chatting? Did he seem really tired or well rested afterwards? I'd be tempted to try 2h50mins again, but if he has another bad night then reduce it a bit or he'll be OT. I'm actually surprised that yesterday night went so well given that he was up 5.5h after his last nap with no CN, that's amazing! I'd have thought that would be the sort of night to aim for really, I know it's tiring doing those feeds but at his age it is quite normal.
So for that first nap, you're doing shh pat? And he's finding it easy to settle? If so, perhaps his later struggles are more routine related rather than shh pat related, wdyt?
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Well our NW has just increased some more ...
Wednesday (not a good day!)
WU 6.50
S 9.35-10.50
E 11.00
S 2-2.20* (after 1hr of crying)
E 2.30 (nursed to sleep)
S 2.45-3.30
S 5.25-6 (in baby carrier on walk)
BT 7.45
NW 9.25-10.30pm* (crying most of this time)
NW/E 11.45-00.15
NW/E 3.50-4.30
NW 5.50-6.00
WU 6.30
* I had a meeting at lunch time and a dinner in the evening so MIL and DH looked after LO. They struggled getting him down for his pm nap which they aimed to start at 1pm (so I nursed him when I came home to calm him down from his waking again and put him back to sleep) and they really struggled to get him back to sleep when he woke the first time at night (there was a lot of crying I was told). I was home at 11pm and he'd just gone to sleep but woke shortly after again.
Thursday (better napping, bad night again)
WU 6.30
S 8-9
S 9.15-10 (light sleep woke several times)
E 11
S 12.20-1.50
S 3.55-4.25 (in car-seat in car)
BT 7pm (didn't fall asleep nursing, took 20min after shush-pat pupd to get to sleep) asleep at 7pm
NW 8-8.19
NW/E 10.50-11.10 (nursed to sleep)
NW 00.30-00.35 (screamed awake, uncomfortable?? Picked up, big burp! Back to sleep quickly)
NW/E 2.50-3.15 (nursed to sleep)
NW 3.30-3.40
WU (EW again!!) 5.45 (distracted with music etc for a while, up at 6am)
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To answer your questions -
If LO doesn't nap for at least 1hr15 - 1hr30 (i.e. two sleep cycles), he wakes up tired and crying. Even when he does wake up after two sleep cycles he sometimes still is moaning, but usually fine. He's always smiling at me when he wakes up after a 2hr nap, but these are very rare these days. Going by his behaviour. I consider 1 sleep cycle (any nap under an hour) too short and two sleep cycles sufficient, especially if it's 1.5 hrs (rather than 1hr15). I agree that stretching the A in the morning seems to work to get him to nap about 1hr20-1hr30 but like you say it depends on EW and number of NW whether we can stretch it (sometimes he seems exhausted after 1hr45 2hrs already) as well as what we do during that tine. If we go out with the dogs during that activity slot, it stretches it a lot, but sitting in the buggy staring at trees is very relaxing for him (compared to say sitting in his jumperoo, another favourite!). He went down for his naps on Thursday very well (having a warm sleeping bag fresh from the tumble drying certainly helped with the pm nap!!). I always have to help him to sleep, with shush-pat over my shoulder (in cot doesn't work) and often I have to pupd a couple of times before he'll go asleep when I put him down after shush-pat over shoulder. I guess I kinda combine the two methods, as to start with he's still quite wild in m arms or will start crying as soon as I put him down. But mostly he's asleep within 5-10 minutes for naps (if timed right).
I will continue sleep taining during the day and feed during NW, but my new 'rule' is there has to be at least 4 hrs between NW for me to feed him (or roundabout that), with the exception of the first night feed for which he usually wakes up by himself around 10-11pm. Does that sound ok? He does fall asleep on the boob during night feeds. I think it's when I would feed him for all NW including EW that feeding would seem 'useless' as it didn't get him back to sleep. He's not had to many NW after the 4am mark recently though, but the EW before 6am remain. Would be great if that could be stretched until 6.30am or even 7am! I am totally happy feeding him twice a night (if he falls asleep nursing), that indeed is my 'dream night' at the moment and what I'm aiming for. I don't have the (unrealistic) expectation he'll sleep through even more, but 5-6 hour stretches would be great.
He seems to do better when he wakes up for his first MONF around midnight, rather than waking up around DF time of 10-11pm (i.e. after a 5 hr stretch, rather than a 3-4 hr sleep - assuming a 7pm BT). Although he does take a full feed also at 10pm and falls back asleep. I do wonder though how much this is habitual, rather than hunger and wonder whether it's worthwhile trying to not feed him before, say 11pm (do shush-pat/pupd if he wakes before that)?
I did wonder whether he needs the CN or whether that could be a cause for NW / EW? As without APOP it is a nightmare to get him to sleep for that one (and things don't seem any better with that CN).
I think we have overcome the shush-pat aversion, by only doing it over the shoulder and as described above, combining it with pupd when he's kicking and arching his back, or when he starts crying again (or continues crying) when I lay him down. This does seem to work for him and when he's then finally quiet in his cot, I just need to 'manage' the shaking head (looking for nipple perhaps?) and flinging arms. I usually put my hand and/or his lovey against his face, as this stops the head shaking and calms him and sometimes hold his arms, which also helps). So I agree it's probably more a matter of looking at the routine now, as I feel I can calm him again.
Sorry for the long post, appreciate your thoughts!!
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Stretched A time to 2hrs40 this morning and he went straight to sleep at 8.25am! If only e would not wake up so early (5.45am this am) ...
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Well done on working out how best to get him to sleep these days, sounds like great progress :)
Definitely stretch that first A time, actually one thing I used to do was to fix that first nap, since having too little A time at the start of the day can lead to more EWs. Even if he gets OT and it all goes pear shaped and you can't resettle him, you could always try to APOP the second nap to help him to catch up - that's what I did at this age. But the advantage of fixing the time of the first nap is that it can help to stop the WU getting earlier and earlier... Oh and I also made a habit of taking each of them, actually at this stage, out for a walk before their first nap, really helped to stretch the A time, as you've experienced, and later, in the 2-1 when we went for a UT short morning nap (don't worry about all that just yet ;) ) it helped to keep them calm and expect a nap when we arrived home. So why not go out with the dogs every day before the first nap if you can?
I 'd also say definitely keep the CN for now, don 't worry about APOPing it as it will go soon enough. They really need to be doing around 3h A time before they're ready to drop that completely. What I would say, is keep the A time after it, before BT, much shorter. You'll need to experiment a bit, but if he's waking that often in the early evening, so soon after BT, it usually indicates OT. Actually EW can also point to OT, so an earlier BT can help with both issues. I used to get mine up from that CN and move pretty much straight into BT routine - so I'd bf, bath, into pjs, any meds and then top up bf before pd. I'd have liked to include a book but mine took such an age over their feeds that there really wasn't time without getting OT, so we just added that into the BT routine once the CN was gone.
Your nf plan sounds good to me, if he really seems hungry then of course you'll feed him regardless. How many feeds does he have in a day? Can't really comment on df vs midnight feeds, I always preferred the df and then I could go to bed ;)
Hope that helps at all?
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Although the first nap started good - to sleep with minimal efforts at 8.25am, he woke after 45min :( could this been caused by being OT for this nap? As I'm really wanting the first nap to b the good one (as we sometimes have to go out in the afternoon like today), I nursed him back to sleep ... Oops again! He again woke after 10min, but then I eventually managed to get him back to sleep in his cot. Afternoon was rubbish, as he had to nap in the car and we weren't going very far ... I guess I'll try for an early BT as we are also going out tonight and don't want the baby sitter to have him waking up!!!
WU 5.45 (up at 6am)
E 7
S 8.25-9.15
S 9.50-11.15
E 11.30
S 1.35-2
S 3.25-4
E 5pm
... BT 6pm (?)
We follow the 4-hr feeding routine with feeds roughly at 7, 11, 3 and then we do an extra feed around (usually after he wakes from his catnap or at the start of bt routine) 5-6 pm plus a feed before bed as last thing of the bt routine (and he usually falls asleep). So 5 daytime feeds. In addition, there will sometimes be some APOP to extend naps (nursing back to sleep), like today. So one would think enough food to get him through ...
So will I try to stretch A time in the morning until about 2hr 45 after WU time? Would I be better to use APOP if he wakes up early (after 45min) from this nap or do you advice to use pupd / shush-pat to get him back to sleep for this first nap? And what time do you recommend after the CN? Our routine does incluse a bath, so usually takes about 20 minutes and then feeding after that. Is it better to put him to bed early (eg 6pm) than to have too lng of an A time after catnap? I'm afraid he'll wake up even earlier in the morning!!!
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I guess I'm wondering what to do if there is no CN or if CN is very early (which it has been because he's been waking up so early that both naps are usually shifted forward as well and he probably gets OT end of the day). I'll take him out in the baby carrier now, to see if we can get another 20 min nap in otherwise I think I pretty much have to put him to bed at 5.30pm!!
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I was very hopeful last night, but pretty dsperate with exhaustion this morning. I don't know where it's going wrong, but I feel the nights are just getting worse. I'm also not convinced about the night feeds, as I do feel he wakes up more frequently as well as habitually - should he not just learn to feed more during the day (surely he has enough opportunity). After reading your reply yesterday, I decided to take him out for a walk in the carrier for his CN (dogs are loving APOP!). So after waking up at 4pm, he then had a CN from 5.10-6pm and as you suggested I kept A time short and he was asleep by 7.30pm. He went down relatively easy and did show his tired signs (so def not UT), so I thought I'd be in for a good night ...
NW/E 10.50-11
NW 00.10-00.20
NW/E 2.15-2.30 (left side only, think lo just wanted comfort, fell asleep)
NW/E 3.50-4.30 (fell asleep at 4am, but woke after 5 min)
WU 5.45
I tried stalling him with music and lights on the ceiling (fancy baby monitor features), but he would mostly lie there moaning and then it became more like crying (he's never very good at kying in his cot awake, as I always take him out once he starts the crying). I took him into my bed at 6.20 and on the boob and he eventually slept (with a bit of waking) until 7.40am. To me this means he does actually need that extra sleep, as it was one of the first times he was then just lying in bed 'chatting' to himself and big nutbrown hare :)
Any suggestions??
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Hmmm yes I'd definitely say early BT is better, can actually lead to a better and longer night, I don't understand why but EW is pretty typical of OT. I'm wondering whether you may need to start sleep training at night in earnest :-\ I think you said elsewhere that you've tried Pantley's method already - do you feel ready to start trying that again? Or try shh pat etc as you successfully do in the day? How does he go to sleep at BT? That would be the first place to start if he's not going to sleep independently, but I think you said he is? Sorry, you do such great, detailed posts but then I get lost looking back through them all :-[
The other possible issue is discomfort - another reason why LOs may wake frequently at night. Do you think there could be teething or digestive issues going on, for example? Temperature changes? Developmental leaps?
With the feeding - yes, his intake looks pretty normal to me, but then that includes the night feeds. Some LOs might manage the same number of daytime feeds but only one nf, but others will still need the two night feeds at this age. I know of some mums who'll decide not to feed earlier than the first feed of the previous night (presumably in hours since BT feed, if BT varies), so if one night they go 3h, then not feed earlier than 3h the next night. If you decide to fix a df before you go to bed then you might want to set a time after that, before which you won't feed. Some find they have success stretching the gap between feeds that way, and in the meantime LO learns how to resettle by other means for the other NWs. Wdyt?
I'm afraid I'm away for Christmas from Monday but not sure if I'll manage to get on here tomorrow with all the packing to do...I've let the other mods know to pop on in my absence so you won't be abandoned :-* Oh and I kept meaning to say, your DS is such a cutie :D
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I hope you have a lovely Christmas holiday!
I have to start sleep training again, both day and night, in earnest. He will only be soothed by my nipple in his mouth and is waking ALL the time. We are on 45 min naps, EW and MANY NW. I tried pupd, but he just seems so much more hysterical then when we tried it first 3 weeks ago. I know I make it worse by trying it and then giving in and putting him on the boob, but I am just less convinced now (after hysterical screaming for nearly an hour). Not only is the shush-pat in the cot no longer working (that stopped working after about 2 weeks), I now can't get him to stop crying (screaming in fact) whatever I do (pupd or shush-pat over shoulder). I'm a bit at my wits end, because I want to be consistent and make this work, but it's at the point where it feels like I'm simply letting him cry it out, but in my arms. I'm definately not having any soothing effect on him whatsoever.
To answer your questions:
I did try the Pantley method to start with, but I felt it was only effective to a point. I could pull my nipple out earlier after a few days, but I could still only put him in his bed asleep (ie after he'd fallen vast asleep in my arms), even after doing it for 3 weeks. Whenever I pulled my nipple out while he was still awake-ish, even if he would then not fuss, he would start crying as soon as I put him down. I know it's a gentler and slower method, but I couldn't wait 6 weeks or longer for (potential) results so moved onto pu/pd - which when we first started it 3 weeks ago worked super well, but now seems to have completely lost its magic.
At BT he gets breast at end of the routine and falls asleep, goes to bed sleeping (back when we were doing pupd only for a few days, he would actually go down awake and would fall asleep with shush-pat, but it feels those days are long gone ....)
Physical discomfort - I always find it hard to tell. There may be some, but certainly not all the time and I know that is not the real problem.
Feeding - I'd be thrilled if I was only feeding twice a night! I go to bed around 8pm every night, because I am exhausted. There hasn't been such a thing as a dream feed for ages, as he automatically wakes anywhere between 9-11pm (getting earlier and earlier these days).
If any other moderators have suggestions they are much appreciated!! I feel every day we are slipping further and further, but the soothing methods that worked in the past just have the opposite effect. It can easily take 1-2 hours to settle him during the night and he then wakes again very quickly. The only reason I'm still sane is that my DH is on holidays and I could have a couple of hours of extra sleep this am.
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I'm trying hard to get back into a routine that works and will keep posting the days here. Sunday night was a nightmare, with very little sleep. Eventually I took him in my bed, on the boob and there were still many NW, but then a good sleep after 7am.
Monday
E 4-7
WU 8.30
E 10
S11.30-12.40
E 3.35 (nursed to sleep)
S 3.45-4.30
S 5-5.15 (in baby carrier)
E 6.30
BT 7 (after 30min sp / pupd)
NW 9.50-10 (nursed back to sleep)
NW 1-2.30 (sp - pupd did not work, eventually took into bed and nursed to sleep)
FMON 2.20-2.30
NW / E 6
WU 7.15
Tuesday
WU 7.15
E 7.30
S 10.15 (after 15 min of shush-pat / pupd, bit OT?) - 10.50
E 10.50-11.10 (tried to nurse back to sleep didn't work)
Tried to extend until 11.40 - crying and screaming ... I give up (in tears myself .. Why won't he just sleep?!?!?!?!?!)
S 1.30-2 (took 20min to get him to sleep)
S 2.15-3 (took 15min shush-pat / pupd to get him back to sleep)
E 3-3.15 (lying down in the dark)
S 3.15-3.30
E 5.30
BT 6.30 (nursed to sleep)
NW 9 (nursed)
NW 10 - took into bed with me, as couldn't face hours of crying again. He woke again around 1am and then at 3am and just about hourl after that. Put him on the breast each time.
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I'm still here looking for some advice please. My LO is 6 months old next week and EBF. We started solids and he gets 1-2 'meals' a day. I feel we have massively regressed with sleep training (although he has never slept without waking at least twice at night) and I'm wondering how to best get back on track. I have more energy, as my partner has another week off, so can take on early morning shifts. I think my DS is still totally using the boob as a sleep prop, but now has also using the shush-pat (which I do holding him over shoulder) as a prop. There is no lying him down drowsy, as there is immediate screaming (which usually stops or turns into just sobbing when picked up). We are dealing with just about everything: 45 min naps (which I extend by nursing him, but as of tomorrow I'll replace that with shush-pat), many NW (5-6 times) and EW. The only thing that does go well, is getting him to sleep for his am and pm nap without having to nurse, although I have to do shush-pat until asleep on my shoulder. CN only possible with APOP (baby carrier! Never in bed) Please help! Today for example looked like this:
In my bed from about 2am (after about 3 NW already) and many wakings and feeding between 3-6am
WU (getting up) 6.45
E 6.50-7.00 (not very hungry of course)
E 8.30 (solids & nursed afterwards)
S 9.25 (started wind down process at 9.10)
Wake up at 10, nurse back to sleep
S 10.10-10.55
E 12.45
E 1.15 (solids)
S 2-2.45
S 3-3.40 (in car)
E 4
E 6.30
BT 7 (started routine at 6.15)
NW 9
DF 11-11.20
NW 11.35-11.45
NW 01-01.20
NW 01.40-2.10
NW +E 03.20-03.45
WU 5.30-6.05 (left in cot, LO was whining, crying a little, quiet or dozing in between)
Get up at 6.05
(Today S 8.30)
I try to keep first activity time around 2.5 hrs (which already seems a struggle) and the second one between 2.5 and 3 hrs winding down a good amount of time and having naptime routine. No matter what I do he doesn't seem to fall back asleep by himself or manage his transitions. Wants nursing, but I know that just makes it worse. What can I do??? Also, do you count A from his waking up, or proper getting up time? Last question - i reall want LO to disassociate boob from sleep (and also be consistent in this myself). But I do feel he still needs 1-2 night feeds (best night we ever had was BT 7.30. NW/E midnight, WU 6). He wakes up a lot, but don't want to feed him then as that would be reinforcing / rewarding the NW. Do I feed him at set times (eg 11 and 3am) and wake him up for this? What's the best approach?
Does the "how do i address habitual wakings" info post also works when LO wakes up from sleep / after 45 min nap because of prop dependency (nursing or patting to sleep), or does that need to be addressed first?
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Hey there Antie - Trimbler is not available (I forgot!) so I'll see what I can do :)
OK. I've had a quick read through, it never sinks in quite so well when I read over a post as when I have followed throughout but here's what I suggest, set a first nap time and stick with it, increase A time and use W2S (the FAQ you mentioned, I'll link it). When LO is very tired he will sleep, I personally don't believe we are seeing OT in the naps and even if we saw a bit of OT in the naps I also don't believe it's too much of a problem, OT helps LO get onto a routine, Tracy had LOs stay awake a long time to get them on routine whether they got OT or not. The thing is here we tend to go slower, also with my own DS I went slower, like treading on egg-shells with those A times but the result was impossible UT naps, nap refusal, short naps, disturbed nights. The description you gave of your LO thrashing and arching at nap time after a period of time when he had been going down well, that to me means one of two things he is either screaming "put me down I am exhausted and you keep patting me instead of letting me sleep" or he is screaming "get me out of here no way am I ready to sleep!" yes they are polar opposites but you try one the try the other, and see what works (the former you say some thing like "seems you don't want me to hold you, let me put you down so you can get to sleep" if he goes quiet and seems to prefer being in his cot then that's the answer. If not then pick him up and leave the room, see if he calms down when you take him somewhere else. UT can look like cot fear at times.
So, looks like WU is between 6 and 7am let's spilt the difference give a 3hr A and set first nap at 9.30am for now. What do you think? Your aim would be something like this:
WU 6/7
A 3hr
S 9.30 - 11
A 3hr
S 2 - 3.30
A 2.5 (I'd leave last A shorter to make sure he is not OT for BT, often UT LOs will still accept early BT, but he'll sure let you know if he isn't ready!)
BT 6pm
NF any time after 10pm
second NF 3-4hrs from first
Begin W2S on nap 1, if you have the energy do both naps but I suggest you don't switch from nap 1 one day to nap 2 another, LOs make habits so it is more successful to work on the same nap each day.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Look at naps option 1. I agree with Trimbler some LOs are bothered by shush/pat but it seemed not so long ago your LO was ok with shush/pat or a kind of adapted version you were using the the crib. It's ok to gently rock, place a firm hand, stroke, rub back, whatever, the idea is to keep him asleep and help him transition before he fully wakes (and it avoids nursing back to sleep).
Now you can either grit your teeth and plough through on those times regardless of short naps or you can alter the day to accommodate the short naps - either is fine and totally up to you.
If you adapt your day it may look more like this:
WU 6/7
A 3hr
S 9.30 - 10.15
A 3hr
S 1.15 - 2.00
A 2hr 45
S 4.45 - 5.30
A 2hr
BT 7.30
This is not set in stone it's just an example. This shows first couple of A times good and long to see if he will be more willing to sleep and to be helped to transition during nap 1 and 2. The A times then decrease to take into account very short naps and to try to avoid too much OT by BT.
WRT NW, I would accept 2 feeds. I know you must be exhausted but taking him to your bed may add some additional difficulties. I only took mine into my bed during the absolute worst teething and illness and even then he didn't stay the night, I just settled him down and took him back to his own bed. When we went through a very very difficult transition I got in bed with him rather than take him to mine. Are you able to set up a mattress on his bedroom floor for you to camp out a few nights? I know it's not an attractive thought but it does mean he learns he has to stay in his own room.
If you are determined to drop the feed to sleep prop you can also grit your teeth and refuse to feed outside of the routine times, he will eventually drop the prop, I'm not saying it will be comfortable though. I have never been a fan of cold turkey anything to be honest but having read your experience of the gentle wean I am not convinced this is the right way forward for you.
How about keep the prop for a few days just to see what happens on the naps with the longer A and W2S as the prop might suddenly disappear anyway? then reassess and decide exactly what you want to do before you get going on it?
Hope this helps some. Sorry if I have contradicted Trimbler and confused you with different ideas, we all have a different take on things, sometimes that's helpful and sometimes not so. Also sorry if I've given you too many things to think about, with short naps and many NWs, plus props there's quite a lot to cover. Take your time to have a think.
Remember this is your baby and you decide how to proceed x
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Hi Creations - thank you for your thorough reply! Certainly some food for thought and somethings to try, which is very helpful. I have a few questions, but first let me update. Sunday decided things definately had to change, so as of Sunday night I decided no more nursing when he wakes and no more in my bed. As you could see in my previous post, Sunday night there were 5 NW plus a DF (which I woke him for, so that he wouldn't get 'rewarded' for waking. Yesterday (Monday) as follows:
WU 6.05 (but awake-ish in cot since 5.30?)
E 6.39
E 8 (solids)
S 8.30-9.45 (didn't wake after 45min!) (A 2hrs30)
E 10
E 11.30 (solids and milk after)
S 12.30-1 (A 2hrs45 -OT?)
1 hour of calming him trying to get him back asleep (!)
S 2-2.35
E 2.45-3
S 5.15-6 (in pram) (A 2hrs15)
E 6.30
BT (plus BF top-up) 7.35 (A 1hr35)
NW 10.35-10.50
DF 11.35-00.00
NW 01.35-01.45
NW 02.00-02.05
NW 02.55-03.15
NW + E 04.35-5.00
WU 6.45
Today (Tuesday):
WU 6.45
E 6.45-7
S 9.05-9.50 (A 2hrs20)
Settled him back to sleep in about 20min, but he then woke from some noise after 10 min
Up at 10.15
E 11
S 11.35-12.05
E 2 (solids and milk)
S 2.55- 3.25 (A2hrs55) (OT?)
...
We actually have a bed in the nursery, so it would be easy for me to slep there, but it wasn't necessary at all. The past 2 nights / days, I have not nursed him before any of the naps and not even BT (he does get top-up, but then does not fall asleep and we do shush-pat over shoulder until he's asleep) and he's not been in my bed. So I guess that's progress, although it doesn't result in better naps or nights yet :-(
My questions about your plan are:
- i take your point, but is 3hrs activity not too much for 6 mo old (he only turns 6 months this week)? He seems to struggle with 2.5 in the am already and is very hard to keep him awake - major rubbing his eyes, his face, grumpy etc. (or is this from is bad nights and is it a catch 22??)
- Even if he has a good sleep and manages a transition, at the moment this means he still only sleeps for 1 hour and 15 (sometimes 20) minutes at a time, not 1.5 hrs (let alone longer), therewith adding another 30 minutes of A at the end of the day. How to deal with this? Would I try to extend beyond the 1 hr 15 min (atm if he sleeps for this duration he does wake up happy) with w2s too, (would I expect him to sleep longer than this with 3hr A times?) or leave it?
- no CN?
- waking LO up for DF hasn't decreased number of NW. Would I be better just to feed him during one of his NW, but say as a 'rule' that I wait with the first NW until after 11pm (for example) and then with the 2nd feed 4hrs after that? What about reading Tracy wrote not to feed after 11pm and not to feed in early morning as it would become habitual waking?
I'm totally ready to grit my teeth - feel this is what I've been doing for the last 3 months if not longer ... Two feeds during the night sounds like an absolute dream to me!!
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Hey there, so sorry to have left you hanging, and thanks creations for popping on, here's hoping you'll stay around even though I'm back as I'm sure you'll have lots of good ideas ;) :-*
Well done on weaning from feeding to sleep for naps and BT :) Yes it must be so frustrating that you haven't noticed a difference in nap length or NWs yet :-\ but hang on in there :-* I did wonder what you're doing when you say you do shush pat over your shoulder until he's asleep - does that mean that you put him down asleep? If so you'll probably need to move on to doing shush pat in the cot ie lying him down awake so he gets used to falling asleep in his cot - which is where he'll be when he stirs/wakes in the night or in the middle of his nap, so that's where he needs to learn to settle/resettle himself ultimately.
I agree with creations that A times should probably be increased, although having said that neither of mine were doing 3h at 6mo, they both had/have shorter A times. But going by the nap length after 2.5h and how he wakes from it, I'd say you do really need to push that first A time to start with. I also liked to fix the time of the first nap, and also the time I got them up in the morning, provided they're happy enough to chat/play/fuss (without being too upset) in the cot beforehand, with or without soothing. So if 3h really seems too much for now, then how about 2h45 or even 2h40? So get him up at 6:30am, say, and aim for first nap at 9:10/9:15. You may need to work hard to keep him calm if he has a tendency to get upset when tired - with both of mine, we just made it a routine to go out just before the nap - happened naturally with DD as we had the school run! But maybe you can think of something that would work better for your DS to give him just enough stimulation not to fall asleep but keep him calm enough to still be sleepy.
I'd say the 1h15 nap sounds UT so no point trying to extend, but if you do get UT naps or otherwise short I personally found the CN really useful for adding that extra A time into the day (I think that's what you mean by the extra 30mins?) and preventing lots of OT before BT. Both mine were late to drop the CN as they needed shorter than average A times. DD especially would have horrible nights when OT, perhaps DS did too but I think I've blotted that out from my memory :P
Can I ask what happens when you try the df? Does he wake completely? My DS had an amazing ability to hardly stir at all when I picked him up, but DD would wake up more and I think if she'd woken up much more than she did, I 'd have had to decide against the df. I would avoid it after 11pm, if you're trying to feed him in his sleep, without disturbing him too much. But if you decide to just feed him when he's hungry and wakes for it, then you could well do something like what you suggested. Just bear in mind there's a GS around 6mo...
Hope you can see a way forwards between both of our sets of ideas, as creations says he's your baby and you know him best :-*
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It's not even 9pm and he has already woken once. The shush-pat over the shoulder works as a replacement for nursing but is becoming a prop in itself. He goes down pretty much asleep, or at least very near it, or he just screams. I recognise this being a problem, but as long as he's in his crib nothing that I do soothes him (his new thing is to kick his bum of the mattress). I tried stroking, singing, patting, holding, you name it. Nothing really calms him. The only thing that sometimes works is literally pinning his arms down. He then screams and turns his head and if I placed his lovey correctly the feel of it against his face calms him - but this scenario goes from raging screaming to complete silence / asleep and has nothing to do with self soothing. The lovey doesn't manage to help him fall asleep on his own.
DF - before I would just feed him when he woke up and he's eventually fall back asleep on the boob. The last two nights I picked him up when he was sleeping, but then he pretty much wakes up, feeds and it can take 10-20 min to get him to fall asleep on the boob (he sucks differently for drinking and comfort, so i can tell) - I try pantley's gentle removal plan and it isn't until i can take the nipple out without him waking up that I can put him back in his bed. Otherwise he'll wake fully instantly and start crying (i can then choose between nursing longer or picking him up to do shush-pat over shoukder, leaving him in cot the crying just escalates).
One more question - how do I know whether he can take 3hrs or 2hrs 40-45? He already seems tired after 2 hrs in the morning. What are OT signs in terms of (not) sleeping? The eye rubbing, yawning, loosing concentration, whining, rubbing face into me, etc already starts much, much earlier ...
He just seems a very light sleeper at the moment, which is why I'm a bit worried about w2s - i think just opening the door will already wake him. Ok, I'm going to try all your suggestions tomorrow and up A to at least 2hrs 45 and battle through. Will update regularly (this forum is keeping me sane!) Thanks for all your help!!
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Well done on dropping the feed to sleep prop!!! xxx
What about reading Tracy wrote not to feed after 11pm and not to feed in early morning as it would become habitual waking?
Without going to read the books again I would say from memory that Tracy's rule of not feeding after 11pm is for the DF, it doesn't mean you can't feed baby a NF. It is also important to take into account more modern research on BF and NFs which Tracy was unable to take into account. We all generally believe here Tracy would have modified her books based on new research so we do not follow the books by the letter but do continue to follow the BW ethos.
Mine always woke for the DF from very young, no way he would take milk whilst sleeping. I just continued with the NF at that time because it was a more suitable time for me, I got the longer sleep after the 'DF' rather than me being woken to feed him. I never had a problem with this and just weaned it when I thought he was ready, very easy.
The shush-pat over the shoulder works as a replacement for nursing but is becoming a prop in itself. He goes down pretty much asleep, or at least very near it, or he just screams.
Easier said than done but the momentum of moving forward is for you to lead. Each step will annoy him but the idea is to keep moving forward whilst continuing to comfort him. So very sleepy over your shoulder then into cot and continue with shush/pat for as long as he needs, even pick up again if he is hugely upset, fully sooth in arms and put down again shush/patting. You can shush/pat all the way to sleep in the cot initially (and all the way to deep sleep 20 mins later), don't expect him to self sooth right away...one step at a time...but keep moving forward so that he doesn't get too used to any of the steps.
To answer an earlier question, on 3hr A times and good nap lengths there would be no time or need for a CN so it would drop. If A times or naps are shorter there is still need for a CN. You might have some days with a CN and other days without. You might even need to hold on to the CN for a while and allow BT to move later. It's all very individual. Mine had his CN as nap 2 to fit with our daily routine requirements, I'm just saying that to show you that every LO can have a different routine based on need and it's fine.
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Today (Tuesday):
WU 6.45
E 6.45-7
S 9.05-9.50 (A 2hrs20)
Settled him back to sleep in about 20min, but he then woke from some noise after 10 min
Up at 10.15
E 11
S 11.35-12.05
E 2 (solids and milk)
S 2.55- 3.25 (A2hrs55) (OT?)
...
BT 6.40
NW 8.30-8.40
NW 9.35-9.45 (settled in cot)
NW/ E 10.20-10.40
NW 01.40 (I went in at 2am and settled in cot within a couple of min, but he kept stirring in his sleep. I left the room at 2.35 and he stayed asleep, though seemed like disturbed sleep)
NW / E 3.50-4.10
NW 5.20 By now I was shattered and knowing I wanted a 3 hrs A time this morning needed him to sleep preferably until 7am, so took him into bed and on the boob :-[ ...
WU 7 am (!)
So quite a rubbish night, BUT I managed to settle him in his cot a few times, so I feel great success, even though I hardly got any sleep (I didn't even write that DH woke me at 11.30 to help him evacuate our summer house of which the roof had blown off ...).
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Then today (I'm feeling excited and hopeful) ...
Wednesday
WU 7am
E 7 - 7.10
E 9 (prunes and milk top up)
S 10.10 - 11.40 .... SOOOO HAPPY!!! (A 3 hrs 10)
E 12
E 2.15
S 2.43 - 3.40 (A 3 hrs) (get up and out at 4.05)
E 4.30
E 6.00
BT 7
Both naps he fell asleep in his cot (!! I held his one arm/hand, made sure his comfort blankie was touching his face and mouth and I did shush-pat on his shoulder, as he sleeps on his back). He fell asleep within 5 minutes (second nap he was definately more fussy and I did pick him up a couple of times, but still didn't take too long).
During the first nap, I went in after 30 min to do w2s, but he never so much as stirred (only slightly the moment I came in), so I just sat there and did nothing for 20min. Yay!!! :) Second nap less success. I went in after 30min and after exactly 45 min he woke with a jolt, immediately rubbing him eyes, squirming and crying. I was there to shush and pat and lo and behold, as quickly as he had woken, he fell back asleep. Yay! I continued patting and after a couple of minutes there was another jolt that I 'caught'. I left the room at 3.40, but then at 3.45 he woke crying again. I tried getting him back to sleep, first in the cot, then over shoulder, then nursing, but no success, so got him up and out the room at 4.05.
So ... I guess I left too soon. Should I sit and wait (only shush-pat if/when needed), or continue the shush-pat for a good 15-20 min (see also first question below)?
BT - I started routine at 6pm and tried to put him down in his cot (awake) probably at 6.30, after his bath and feed. He was quite fussy (more so than during either nap) and I dare say he was perhaps ever so slightly UT - he wasn't fussy in a rubbing his eyes and upset way, he was just fussy in an awake, looking around and not quite wanting sleep rather than not quite being able to get to sleep - way. After patting and shushing and picking him up and getting nowhere for about 15 minutes, I just left him with his lovey and kept an eye on the baby monitor (with video!). He was just playing a bit, self-soothing, and when he finally started to cry, I went in, did the shush-pat in his cot while holding his hand and he was asleep in 1 minute!!! Yay!!! :) I am now very curious how the night will go. Will modify to update this post tomorrow morning ...
Just three questions:
- with this w2s method (nap option 1), do you start shush-pat when you see LO stir / wake up (this is what I did today and so ended up not touching him at all in the morning as he never stirred), or is the idea you would start shush-pat while he is still in deep sleep and continue through the transition (which would seem to me risking waking him up in the first place by the intervention)?
- nap duration on a good nap has been 1 hr 20, which should really increase to 1 hr 30 (at least). If this doesn't happen automatically with the increaesed A times (although it did this morning!), could I use w2s as well to extend that bit longer? What time would I go in?
- where do the E times fit in with this routine, as I find it a bit awkward fitting it all in there. He gets offered solids for breakfast and lunch (during first and second A times) and although he gets water afterwards, he also needs a BF top-up after as he doesn't take much water (to avoid constipation). I have been nursing before naps (about 30min before sleep,mso not nursing to sleep), as I don't want to risk him waking up from hunger, but also want tomavoid snacking. If we take a 7am wake up time, how would the day look ideally including E?
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So ... I guess I left too soon. Should I sit and wait (only shush-pat if/when needed), or continue the shush-pat for a good 15-20 min (see also first question below)?
I think it could well have been more succcessful if you had stayed, yes. Tracy's method is to shush/pat for 20 mins into deep sleep. IME with my own DS I did not always need to do 20 mins and this would likely have disturbed him had I not adapted to his need. Really it is something you get to know through experience of doing it and seeing how LO responds and what works...and then keep changing to try to keep up with their ever changing needs!
He was just playing a bit, self-soothing, and when he finally started to cry, I went in, did the shush-pat in his cot while holding his hand and he was asleep in 1 minute!!! Yay!!!
Yay!!
- with this w2s method (nap option 1), do you start shush-pat when you see LO stir / wake up (this is what I did today and so ended up not touching him at all in the morning as he never stirred), or is the idea you would start shush-pat while he is still in deep sleep and continue through the transition (which would seem to me risking waking him up in the first place by the intervention)?
The idea is that you just start the shush/pat anyway. But if you don't need to then honestly, just don't, I know you are somewhat fearful of disturbing him with W2S which is understandable, I would continue what you are doing, being there ready rather than listening only on the monitor because by the time he cries out for you it is so much harder to resettle. you did a great job of W2S and catching a jolt.
- nap duration on a good nap has been 1 hr 20, which should really increase to 1 hr 30 (at least). If this doesn't happen automatically with the increaesed A times (although it did this morning!), could I use w2s as well to extend that bit longer? What time would I go in?
Yes. Use it as much as you like but don't let it become a prop which binds you to the bedroom all day every day. 3 days on and 1 off. For the 1hr 20 WU I would likely go in at 1hr 10. FWIW my greatest achievement with W2S was during our drop from 2 naps to 1, I went in every 19 mins and left at 21 min. My DS was OT waking every 20 min throughout his nap and if I crawled in at 19 min, put a hand over him ready to lay on him at 20, I could leave the room at 21!! I then had 18 mins of Y time (oh yeah count those mintues) before running up up the stairs, dropping to my knees and crawling in at 19 mins again!! ha! He got his 2hr sleep :)
where do the E times fit in with this routine, as I find it a bit awkward fitting it all in there. He gets offered solids for breakfast and lunch (during first and second A times) and although he gets water afterwards, he also needs a BF top-up after as he doesn't take much water (to avoid constipation). I have been nursing before naps (about 30min before sleep,mso not nursing to sleep), as I don't want to risk him waking up from hunger, but also want tomavoid snacking. If we take a 7am wake up time, how would the day look ideally including E?
Can't show an exact day because it depends on nap length, looks like you are on 4-5hr milk E so somethign like...
WU 7
E 7 milk
E 8 breakfast
A 3hr
S 10 - 11.30
E 11.30/12 milk
E 1 lunch
A 3hr (let's just say it's 3hr but it might be shorter)
S 2.30 - 4.00
E 4 milk
E 4.30/5 dinner
A 3hr
E 6.30
BT 7
This is a very rough guide, there is no need to give solids 3 times per day if your LO is not ready for them and obviously if you want to top up with BF at the end of solids meals that's fine too.
It really IS hard to fit everything in at this age. Don't worry about snacking, snacking is really something to look at for younger LOs who might not be taking a full feed and getting hind milk or causing problems with digestion etc. At this age it really isn't an issue - I had a thread at this age about snacking as my DS ate so often between milk, solids and milk top up.
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Yippee :D great news on that nap and success with extending A times and w2s :D (but hugs for that horrible night before :( :-* )
As I understand it, w2s is more about helping them not to wake up during the transition, so starting the process before they actually stir. However, you can do as you did and shh pat back to sleep if he stirs, I'm just not sure if that would be called w2s? With my DD, she needed help all the way into deep sleep at first, and then even once she needed less help at the beginning of the nap, she still needed me to shh pat her all the way back into deep sleep (~20mins) if she woke in the middle of a nap, for a few more weeks, before she got better at resettling herself mid-nap. So you may need to do more to lengthen a nap, compared with what you do at the beginning of the nap, you'll only know that by trying a few things out... But I think the main issue here is probably getting the routine/A times right so that he's really ready for a nice long nap - you can shh pat/w2s all you like to try and extend but if he doesn't need to sleep longer then he'll struggle. I think you have a good idea of where you're heading now, will look forward to your update re the night :)
So as for EASY with solids, rather than posting an example here, hope you don't mind if I point you to a whole load of sample routines - you may find yourself referring to them later on, so here they are: chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months
Oh I see creations beat me to it ;D well I'll just post anyway rather than delete all that typing ;) hope it's not too contradictory...
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Thanks you guys! I feel pretty chuffed about today, even if the second nap wasn't as long as it should have been. Will try again tomorrow and stay in longer. I just really hope it starts paying off at night time, as LO waking up 6 times is just madness.
Re the milk feeds - my only fear about snacking had to do with LO needing feeds during the night because he'd perhaps not taken good full feeds during the day, or being used to feed little bits frequently. But I guess since he sure has plenty of opportunity during the day, I will stick to feeding twice a night with minimum of 4 hrs between feeds and he'll just have to cope! Ok. Going to bed soon, as No guarantee tonight is going to be better. xx
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So the night ...
NW 9.50-10.10
NW + E 11-11.25
NW + E 4.55 - awake until 6.15
WU 8
Big improvement! But when he woke at 4.55am, he was quite awake. Rather than leaving him, I went straight in to nurse him, hoping he would fall back asleep on a full tummy. I left him chatting to himself for about 15 min after nursing, when I heard him trying to poo (which took him quite a while), then he cried. So I went in, changed him and left him again in his cot - by this time it was 5.50am. He just Became more fussy, crying became louder, so at 6am I took him into my bed, nursed and he was asleep by 6.15am until 8am.
What is the best way dealing with these EW? Obviously I rather he had slept that hour from 5-6 and woken up at 7am! And I don't want to create a habit by taking him into bed, but at the same time, I want him rested in the morning as he has to stay up for 3 hours A time!!! But all in all delighted by the progress! x
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Today struggled again with w2s and with the 2nd nap:
WU 8
E 8.05
E 9.45-10.15 (solids and milk)
S 11.05 - 11.35 (he woke up when I entered the room for w2s, took really long time to resettle)
E 11.45
S 12 - 12.45
E 3
S 4.20 (in baby carrier)
LO had fallen asleep in the car at 3pm (max of 5-10 min) and when I tried to put him down (starting at 3.30) I just couldn't get him to sleep at all. Had to take him out in baby carrier to get him asleep, transferred to cot at 4.35.
I think Tomorrow I'll have the first A time 3hrs again and not going in for w2s (just waiting at the door with monitor that has video and sound) and have a shorter second A time of 2 hrs 30 or 45, as he is so difficult to settle for the second nap.
Happy Hogmanay everyone!!!
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What is the best way dealing with these EW?
You can deal with them by feeding and taking him to your bed, but be prepared for this to rapidly become habit (if it is not already) and possibly effect other self settling (although LOs tend to create habits per sleep so there is a chance he learns this prop only here and not the other naps/BT/NW).
Or you can grit your teeth and teach him to self settle...
it was 5.50am. He just Became more fussy, crying became louder, so at 6am I took him into my bed, nursed and he was asleep by 6.15am until 8am.
Here you seem to be automatically feeding to sleep. He had eaten at 4.55am so he wasn't in need of milk just 1 hour later when you feed him to get him back to sleep. Do you feel you want to drop this fed prop or continue?
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I would really like to drop the prop :-) and teach him to self settle, not just for naps, but also in the early morning. Tell me how to do it please!! The reason I have been taking him into bed is because I don't know how to adjust the A time and routine in general when he wakes up at 5am and doesn't fall back asleep. And the morning nap is going so well, I didn't want to make that worse!!
Atm when I leave him after he wakes up in the morning, his cries go from mantra to seriously needing attention pretty quickly. When I go in, he is quite awake and wanting to play with my hands when I try patting him (ie he's far too awake for me to get him to sleep - he's playing me isn't he!!) and when I leave him in his room to just get on with it by himself, he gets upset pretty quick. Do I keep going in and out?
The night wasn't great again:
After his afternoon sleep
S 4.20-4.45
BT 7.30 (he fell asleep nursing)
NW 9.10-9.15
NW + E 10.30-10.45
NW 01.50-2.55 (E 2.40 couldn't settle him and by then it had been 4 hrs since last feed)
EW 5
Into my bed :-[ and nursed to sleep from 5.45-6.15
WU 8
Today was much better
WU 8
S 11-12.30 (I didn't go in for w2s!) (A 3hrs)
S 3.15-3.45 (A 2 hrs 45 - nursed to sleep)
Nursed back to sleep
S 3.55-4.45
BT 7.25
Why was it better you may think ... When he went to bed this evening he seemed pretty awake to me (compared to his normal state at BT). He fed, butwas still very awake, he wasn't overly rubbing his eyes etc. I put him to bed just after 7pm with his lovey and watched on the monitor. There was a very short time of playing with his blankie, then he started crying, but sort of on and off and not very intense. Trying to fall asleep, but not managing, although there was a lot quiet in between. At 7.20 it became serious crying and I went in. I held his hand, he grabbed my arm, turned on his side towards me and fell asleep. Literally within a minute :) Progress!
Can you please advice me on the afternoon nap, as we haven't managed that one at all yet. He seems OT, I've cut back A time (this isn't reflected in S time, because that's the time he actually fell asleep, but eg yesterday I started putting him down well before S time), but it hasn't worked yet. I was trying for 2hrs 30-45min, do I cut it back even more? And how do I make sure he is not OT at BT like today, if the pm nap isn't working? Routine partly gets delayed because of this getting up at 8am, but I guess those days will be over anyway nce I stop taking him into bed! ;)
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Well done you certainly seem to have seen progress on the first nap with 3h A time :) He may well be a bit OT for his second nap, seeing how quickly he seems to have nursed back to sleep again. I know 3h is a big jump for him, so perhaps try holding at 2h45 for the second nap for a few days and see if he can get used to it? He may surprise you... I certainly wouldn't go less than 2h30, maybe somewhere in between if 2h45 really does seem like more than he can handle, even after a few days of trying.
With the prop thing... It may well end up in lots more OT once you do decide to wean, and you'll need to be consistent for a good few days as he'll likely be upset. I suspect that he is going down a bit OT at BT, as you say, which results in some of those NWs but could also be a cause of the EW. Mine can seem very alert with an OT EW, but from the way he can fall asleep for so long afterwards when you nurse, he certainly seems to need that extra sleep. If he's playing with your hands, you could try just using your voice if he's really upset. He likely will be upset if you don't nurse, since that's what he expects. Whatever you decide to do other than nursing, it may be a while before he gets the hang of it, and you may end up with lots of OT in the process :-\ But at least you're getting a better idea now of what he needs and what to aim for with his routine, which IMO is a better position to be in for prop weaning than when he wasn't taking good naps in the first place. I'm sorry I'm not sure if I'm being much help, probably rambling too much :-[
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WU 8
S 11-12.30 (I didn't go in for w2s!) (A 3hrs)
S 3.15-3.45 (A 2 hrs 45 - nursed to sleep)
Nursed back to sleep
S 3.55-4.45
BT 7.25
It is now Saturday am and this was the rest of the night after LO went at 7.25 pm for BT
NW + E 11-11.20
NW + E 3 - 3.30
NW 4.30 - 5.00 (only picked up once, I settled him in his cot without nursing YAY!! :) )
NW 6.00 - 7.00 (couldn't get him back to sleep)
Getting up at 7am
I had left the room just before 7am, then went back in bright and shiny, turned lights on, GOODMORNING LO, time to get up now - big smile!! (I read that somewhere on the forum)
So again, I'm pretty chuffed with how it went. Especially that there were no NW before 11pm and between 11pm and 3am! I was fully expecting him to wake up around 5am, just happy I managed to get him back asleep for at least part of it.
This morning we managed to keep him up until 10am, so that A time was still 3 hrs - even though he effectively had been awake for 4 hrs. I put him to bed, without nursing, and he pretty much fell asleep as soon as he touched the mattress. I started patting his shoulder, but he was already in dreamland, so I just left 😀. He did wake at 11.05, so only a 1hr10min nap, but not too bad.
So I feel we were lucky this morning, but my question still stands - what if I hadn't managed to get him back to sleep - how is the routine adjusted? Or do we still try to keep him up until 10am or do I put him down earlier for the first nap? Or what if he would finally fall asleep around 6 or 6.30am, would I just let him sleep as long as, or do I wake him at 7am? And is it fine that he falls asleep on the boob after the night feeds and transfer him to his cot asleep? This is different from prop?
I feel that a lot of the success was due to a good second nap yesterday, but I nursed LO to sleep for that nap, and then back to sleep when he woke up 30min in. Will I try that nap after an A time of 2 hrs 30 today instead of 2 hrs 45?
Feel like we are finally starting to get somewhere ... (Which probably means things will change pretty soon!!)
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I would really like to drop the prop :-) and teach him to self settle, not just for naps, but also in the early morning. Tell me how to do it please!!
The big thing that changes is how you respond to him. And honestly for this you must be *ready* because as Trimbler says it is not going to be easy and he is going to be very frustrated and cry, he needs constant support through that and if at any point you choose to take him to your bed and nurser him to sleep again then all this teaches him is to cry longer and louder until you do as he wants (his habit, go to mummy's bed, feed to sleep). It puts all of you through a horrible time for now result or reason.
The thing is that you need to separate hunger from the prop yourself. The bit I pointed out in your earlier post where he had fed only 1hr earlier you were feeding with the idea of putting him to sleep with it and this is where you would need to change your approach. Let me be clear though, no one here is going to frown on you if you decide to continue with this EW prop of feeding and co-sleeping, only that you need to be clear in your mind what you want.
I would say if it has been 3-4 hrs since last night feed then feed and put down in his own cot to sleep. When he protests you stay with him and try to settle him, pick up if needed but don't take him out of his room, settle in the cot if possible, if he is playing with your hands use voice. Expect the first day for him not to go back to sleep at all (always better to keep expectations low and anything else is a result). For now I would have a window of 'morning' so here are a few examples:
- if you have been in there trying to settle him from 4 or 5 am and it gets to 6am then lights on and it is morning
- if you have been resettling and he eventually falls to sleep at say 6am or even 6.50am you wake him up at 7am and start the day, regardless of how tired he is (first nap you could reduce the A by say 15 mins but not massively)
- if he settles and sleeps until anything past 6am you get him up as morning. So lets say he sleeps from 5.45 until 6.15 and you were able to leave the room, when he wakes again it is now morning, great him with a cheery good morning because he has slept on his own for part of that difficult period.
Hope this helps to describe the 'window' of morning, it means morning can begin between 6 and 7am depending on how that section of the night goes. If possible you'd want to leave the room during a non-crying few mins so that you can return at his call with a morning greeting rather than a whispered night time soothing.
There are different approaches to the first A and nap times when doing something like this. Many count the first A from when LO woke up (so 5am - 8am) and whilst this helps to avoid OT it can also perpetuate the EW. Tracy described in her book example of getting a LO into routine by keep the A and nap times set (or pretty much) for a few days regardless of LO getting OT. In this case you would give nap pretty close to 10am (WU should be 7am so nap is at 10)...or you can kind of split the difference. So you might give first nap at a 'set' time of 9am following a WU of 4,5,6am anything after 6am you give the nap closer to 10am.
I'm not giving you a straight answer because I believe it is quite a personal decision on how you want to approach it.
Another thing you might consider doing, if you suspect LO will be OT (from a long NW due to weaning the F2S and co-sleeping) then when you put down for the first nap you leave the room as usual and when he falls asleep you go back in quietly to ready yourself to resettle and OT jolts, these can be at 10min, 20 mins, 30 mins...and you may well get a full nap without helping him or you might need to help. This is fine to help, it all teaching his to sleep at the right time and in his bed.
hope this helps!
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Only had a very quick glance at your latest post btw as you posted while I was typing. I hope my post answers some of your questions, will check back later tonight x
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I don't think I have much more to add to what creations said, just another way to consider the morning A time would be to count time spent trying to resettle in the cot as worth half of an 'up' A time. So if he wakes at 6 but you don't want him up until 7, you can try to resettle when he cries but count that period as just 30mins A time if he doesn't resettle to sleep. Then if you're aiming for 3h A time then his first nap would be at 9:30am. Just another option, as creations says it's up to you how you decide to proceed :-*
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Thanks very much ladies, you have been so much help! He's asleep again now, for his second nap, after 3hrs A time (it so happened that I didn't get to shorten it) and he went tonsleep again, pretty much immediately. First time though for the am nap without nursing to sleep (today I did nurse him, but not to sleep - he was still awake and I then put him in his sleeping bag after nursing). Fingers crossed he'll have a long nap. I'm a bit wary of doing w2s after him waking up when I entered the room (after 30min) the other day, so will just see how it goes. Will update this post in a day or 2-3 (if I can wait so long ;)) to update you on (hopefully) progress we made. Let you focus on helping some other mummies!!! Xx
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Glad to hear you so positive, great to see so much progress :) look forward to hearing more in a day or 2-3... ;) :-*
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Sounds like you've had lots of success and can see the progress :)
Good luck over the coming days xx
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Yes it is going well. Test showed that LO is a (spirited) Angel type baby and he takes well to changes and routine. Our initial success with EASY was unbelievable and we are definately on the right tack.
Sat 2-1:
WU 7 (but really 6am, I tried getting hm back to sleep until 7am)
A 7-9.55 (2hrs 55)
S 9.55-11.05 (1hr 10)
A 11.05-1.55 (2hrs 50)
S 1.55-3.10 (1hr 15)
A 3.10-6.25 (3hrs 15)
BT 6.25
NW 9.10 (settled as soon as I shushed <2min)
NW + E 00.15 - 00.30
NW + E 4.55 - 6.15 (finished feeding 5.20 - poo + nappy change after)
WU 7
Sun 3-1
WU 7
A 7 - 10
S 10 - 11.30
A 11.30 - 2.30
S 2.30 - 3 (went in immediately and he settled <2 min)
S 3 - 3.30
BT 6.25 (tried for 6pm, but OT and fussy)
NW 9 - 9.55 (E 9.45, nursed to sleep)
NW + E 4.30 - 5.10 (finished feeding at 4.50, left room, back in at 5pm, took 10min to settle)
WU 6.15 (left in cot until 6.40)
As you can see it's going pretty well and major improvements during night time. Naps are not consistently 1.5 hrs (usually shorter :() and he's mostly OT by BT, but there isn't much time for CN (and that would definately have to involve APOP).
I find it very interesting (and challenging) to see how quickly the way he needs / likes soothing changes. I started this thread with needing help, as he seemed to have grown an aversion to the shush-pat in his cot on his side (which had worked well for about 2 weeks). I then did this adjusted thing over the shoulder, then that stopped working and we were back in his cot patting his shoulder and holding his hand or even pretty much pinning him down (especially when OT). Now everything just seems to annoy him and he's getting more and more wild and agitated before falling asleep. I'm now just singing his bedtime song to him, without touching at all and this has worked a couple of times (eventually, when the other things clearly weren't helpful). It's difficult, because he's not quite there yet with being able to sooth himself, but then I'm not able to help much anymore it seems, so he struggles and getting him to sleep takes that bit longer at BT and at naps. I look forward to being able to put him in his cot and that he's able to fall asleep by himself - that would just be amazing!!
I hope nap time increases to 1.5 hrs and that I can work out how to get the second nap right. Will keep you posted.
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Hey that looks like great improvement :D Shame about those night time poos, eh? My DD did the same, so frustrating ::) Well I'd definitely stick with 3h A before that first nap, the second is interesting as the 2h50 looked a bit UT and 3h a bit OT?? But give her a few days with 3h first A and hopefully consistently longer first nap, and see how she settles with that, you may find the second nap begins to stabilise... Ah DH back from,bath time, my turn now, see you later!
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I just wanted to ask your advice regarding me helping him to settle. As I described above, he his throwing tantrums in his cot before sleep, even when I think I timed it right. He is constantly kicking his legs, arching his back, trying to flip off the mattress and flinging his arms. Does this sound familiar, is this what happens when you can't help them anymore (everything Intry just seems to make him more agitated) and they are just frustrated because they still struggle to fall asleep by themselves? He's been like this for both naps today, as well as when he woke early (also for both naps :() and now the same at BT. Is it a routine issue - would he be doing this because OT or UT (I didn't think so as he even did it for his morning nap, which is his best nap)? I just left his room with him acting like this and after a few more screams he seems to have actually fallen asleep (about 5 min) ... Does he just not need me anymore?
Today looked like this
WU 6.40
A 6.40 - 9.35 (2 hrs 55)
S 9.35 - 10.15
S 10.30 - 11.15
A 11.15 - 1.55 (2 hrs 40)
S 1.55 - 2.35 (tried to settle him until 4pm then gave up
BT 6.30
With a wee 10 min snooze in the pram just before 5pm (he woke up as soon as we got home).
I'll try to hold the pm nap to see whether it improves.
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I just left his room with him acting like this and after a few more screams he seems to have actually fallen asleep
It is incredibly difficult to describe a mantra cry as each LO sounds different but I do wonder if you are describing a mantra. Now i wouldn't normally describe 'screams' but I have read and experienced with my own DS (who did not scream his mantra although had a phase of sounding ever so sad during it which I kept interrupting as I was so worried of him actually being sad) of one final cry out or scream literally just before the nod off, like one last attempt to stay awake or, oh I don't know, but it does seem to exist.
I wonder is there any rhythm to this cry/screams?
The thrashing you describe could be one really annoy LO (UT) or one in pain, or could actually be self settling. It is amazing just how physical LOs are when they self settle. Mine throws his arms around, rubs his muslin in his face, then flings it (but keeps hold at the same time) like he is thrashing or waving it around etc etc, it looks like the least relaxing thing one could do and yet this is self settling.
As I'm not sure even further description would help us work out if he is SS and mantra 'screaming' perhaps you need to take a leap of faith and say goodnight, sleep well, call if you need me and just leave the room?
When mine was in his sad mantra phase I kept a clock outside the door and literally stood watching the seconds tick, I think I had in mind (and perhaps from a thread here) to give him 2 mins or go in before that if the cry clearly escalated, and I don't remember it particularly clearly but I think he was always asleep before the 2 mins was up. This is not timing letting him cry but rather holding back as Tracy described so that you don't jump in too soon. In my mind it could take me more than 2 mins to get to my DS had I been, for instance, in the shower or on the toilet (which we do all have to do time to time, even Mummies) even if I responded immediately to get there as fast as I could, so standing , holding back, right outside his door for 2 mins was difficult for me but I could just about manage. Of course the confidence builds when you realise they are fine and just going to sleep (in a very noisy way).
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He seems to want to fall asleep alone. This morning we finished our nap routine and I simply kissed him goodbye and left and he was asleep within 3 minutes. The problem is that he still wakes up after 45 min (even for his morning sleep) and my presence just agitates him (whether it's just my voice or a hand on his chest), I'm not sure what to do as I don't think w2s would work. I've been standing outside his door at 45 min and have been in there when he stirs, but again it wakes him up even more and doesn't send him to sleep - well, it does eventually but took 15 min yesterday. This morning I only went in briefly and shushed a few times (he immediately got really worked up) and then I left again, and his mantra cries escalated. When I went in it turned into near hysteria, and I just got him up. Any suggestions?
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A short update: yesterday we had two 45-min naps and this morning again. It throws the whole routine out! Yesterday we ended up having a nap together late afternoon and actually slept for .5 hrs followed by a good night. Looking at the days below, do you think him waking after 45 min is just habit, or do I need to increase A even further? When I get him out of the room he's usually fine, not super cranky or anything. I'm consistently doing 3 hrs A now and am wondering whether I should try for 3hrs15? We've made amazing progress these past days and he is now pretty much falling asleep by himself every nap (however if he wakes up after 45 min he's very difficult to settle, if at all) and the nights have also improved (EW still a problem, but a bit better yesterday).
Tuesday 5-1
WU 6.45
A 6.45 - 9.45.(3hrs)
S 9.45 - 10.30 (45 min)
A 10.30 - 12.20 (1hr50)
S 12.20 - 1.05 (45 min) (in pram)
A 1.05 - 4 (3hrs)
S 4 - 5.20 (in my bed together)
BT 7.45
NW + E 11.30 - 11.50
NW + E 4.20 - 4.50
NW 5.30 - 5.40
WU 7.15
Today
WU 7.15
A 7.15 - 10.20
S 10.20 - 10.50 (30 min) (did poo)
A 10.50 - 1.45 (2hrs55)
S 1.45 - 3.10
A 3.10 - 6.20
BT 6.20
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It's hard when they're 'screaming', isn't it, but I've also known occasions where each of mine have done this, the final loud scream and then silence (sleep) sounds very familiar. DD would actually show me she didn't want me interfering by pushing me away whenever I went in and getting more agitated. I actually make it a habit to go to the loo just after putting her down, usually any cries have finished by the time I'm out, but if she seems upset at that point, I'll pop back in to make sure everything's ok - sometimes she's thrown her bunny down the other end of the cot and can't find it, since it's pitch black in there, for example. Otherwise, I can usually tell if it's an "I need you"/"I feel worried"(eg in new place)/"I'm OT and annoyed as I really want to get to sleep now but need to block everything else out"... Does that make sense? How long have you tried leaving him to his own devices when he wakes early from a nap? He may surprise you by resettling himself - even just calming himself is progress and learning, even if he doesn't always manage to actually get back to sleep that time.
Yes why not try 3h15, see how it goes... But I didn't quite follow what you meant by 'this morning again' - a 45min nap? But it looks like 1.5h? Followed by a 2h A time?? Am I just reading it wrong?
Celebrations for your progress with settling, wonderful news :D :D
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My typo - should be 10.50 - I've modified it.
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Ah right - got it, thanks :) Well, poos can't really be helped, but looking at that day, she did an almost 1.5h nap, 3h after a 30min nap, so I reckon she could easily handle 3h15 first thing, as I said, see what happens...
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Yes I'd do the increase in A time too, I always went with the first A time to increase first.
It really does sound as though he doesn't want you there.
...it can be quite a mixed feeling to be 'not wanted' when you put so much time and effort into caring for a baby, but focus on the positive side that he is SO confident in you that he is happy to settle alone. As soon as mine could speak I got the "go now" comment ::) there's nothing like helping a screaming-in-teething-pain child for hours and hours through the night only for them to say "you can go now" like you're the hired help and have been dismissed. But it really does show that they only call for us when they need us and as soon as they can manage alone, they do. I still find it amazing!
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We seem to improve just to regress again :-(
We were down to two NW during which I'd feed and he would always fall back asleep after the first feed (around 11 to midnight) although this could be more challenging during the second feed (4-5am). But he started waking earlier abd more frequent (at first he woke after about 5hrs, then after
more like 3-4, but now more like after 2-3 hours). To start I'd still feed him at each NW but now it's at the point where he's just wanting the comfort rather then waking out of hunger. I just feel like we're back to square 1, only he's much harder to settle and it takes much, much longer, especially during the night (over an hour). I try to settle in cot or leave him alone, whatever he seems to need, but there is SO much screaming. At what point do I start pu/pd, instead of singing, handholding, rocking, patting back or sitting and shushing or just sitting (you name it and I've probably tried it)?
Very desperate again and it's a slippery slope to nursing to sleep and/or taking into bed ...
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Oh (((hugs))) I'd wondered how you were doing and hoped that no news was good news! Has anything changed during the days recently? The first two things that jumped into my mind (ok, make that three!) were
- perhaps he's needing a change in routine (what's your whole day's EASY looking like?)
- could he be teething and thus in discomfort?
- has he been having any new foods recently which might be causing discomfort - any changes in BMs, etc?
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Any teeth coming?
Teeth can always feel like it's back to square one.
Sorry you're feeling desperate again. hugs
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Hi Creations & Trimbler, I'm back again with a positive update and another question ...
You were both right, we had major discomfort (possibly from food or teething) and two teeth a couple of days later. He is just such a happy, smiley boy during the day that I didn't even expect anything. But the day after the horrible night of 6 NW and a lot of screaming he did 7 poos in 24 hours (I kid you not) and a couple of days later we noticed the teeth having come through. He has become a bit more grumpy and whining during the day, not happy for very long, but seeming bored quickly and definitely frustrated, as he wants so much (moving, standing) but can't do anything yet and I guess he's probably teething some more... My friends say it's normal.
Sleep wise we seem to be on a steady routine. After waking up during his first nap after 45 min again for a while, I've increased the first A time to 3.5 hours for the last few days, which resulted in a 1 hour and 20 minute (sometimes even 30!) nap again (Yay!!). The second nap is still a bit tricky, usually he wakes up after 45 min, after which I nurse him to sleep to get another 45 minutes out of him or if this does not work, take him out in the pram a little later and he'll usually nod off. Both naps he is now able to fall asleep in his cot by himself (after our nap routine, which just ends with a kiss and me leaving him with his comforter), without a boob in sight, going to bed awake. It is nothing less but AMAZING!!! I am so, so thankful to you both for your support and advice and teaching me about activity times, etc. (I have even been able to advise my friend with great success, but I gave you guys all the credit!!). I think I need to try to also increase the second activity time, which is currently at 3 hours 15, to see whether this improves the second nap.
Night time is still a little problematic, but I may have too high expectations, so please advise! He's on 3 good solids meals a day and still gets plenty of milk feeds, and usually a full feed around 3-4pm plus another full feed at BT. But he still wakes at 11pm (latest, sometimes as early as 10pm) at which point I feed him (he falls asleep on the boob and I put him back in cot) and then a second NW pretty much 4 hours later (just before 3am). He also goes back to sleep quite well (usually on the boob again) after this second waking. Though he does pretty much take full feeds at both these NW, he is very sleepy and doesn't always seem to 'need' it, drinks very slowly, nods off in between a bit. Then he ALWAYS wakes between 5-6am, which in my book is quite early (although it's usually nearer 5.30am I still find that a bit early) - and he's not hungry, just awake. Is there anything I can do about stretching his waking up time to say 6.30-7am? At the moment, I tend to feed him and do a nappy change, put him back in his cot, leave him to 'chat' to himself for a while, but after about 10 minutes he usually gets fed up and starts to be more noisy (Crying) until I come to start the day with him. I've tried leaving him when he wakes up, but again, it's usually about 5-10 min (at most) before he starts crying for attention. I've tried taking him into bed to feed him there in the hope he would sleep some more, but he is just awake. He genuinely seems to be finished sleeping, as he'll be happy and smiling and happily get through the first A time of 3.5 hours. So I'm wondering whether I may be able to change anything routine wise to get him to sleep longer in the morning? And do I really need to give him 2 milk feeds during the night?
Routine now roughly looks like this
WU between 5.15-5.30 am (leave in cot as long as possible, feed, change, put back in cot and leave as possible... usually around get him out at 5.45am)
A 3.5 hrs
S for 1 hour 20-30
A 3 hrs 15
S for 45 min
nurse for 15 min
S for 45 min
A 3 hours
BT
If the second nap does not 'work' and I don't get him back to sleep, he goes to bed between 6-6.30pm (usually closer to 6.30pm), if he does get a decent nap his wake up time is usually at 4pm and he goes to bed at 7-7.30pm.
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It is nothing less but AMAZING!!!
Yay!! That's what I love to read :)
I might be a bit confused by the routine times.
It looks like your routine is roughly this:
WU 5.30
A 3hr 30
S 9 - 10.30
A 3hr 30 (as you are about to increase this A to extend nap 2)
S 2 - 3.30 (although just now this is 2 x 45 min with a feed in the middle)
A 3hr
BT 6.30
But I must be missing something if BT is usually 7-7.30pm (and I make it more like 6.30 on those A and S times) it doesn't feel like it's adding up to me, what have I missed?
If BT is around 6.30pm and WU around 5.30am I would suggest trying to move the entire day on in 15 min increments which takes about a week overall. There's a sticky or FAQ on day light saving (clock change) which details it a bit more. The important aspect to moving a routine this way is to move everything, especially the E times as LO is then more likely to shift with the times. So after a week you could be looking at 6.30am WU and 7.30pm BT. However if BT is already 7.30pm I don't think I would suggest moving it later but rather looking again at the routine times to see what needs changing. Hope that makes sense.
How old is he now?
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He's 7 months next week. My star!!!
It's a bit difficult with explaining the general times because in the morning he either stays in his cot a while and often even when we do 'get up' we first feed and have cuddles in my bed, so I treat all of that time as 'half activity time' as trimbler once suggested. So I never really start counting WU until 6am. Hope that makes sense
So more like this:
"WU" 6am
A 3.5
S 9.30-11
A 11-2.15
S 2.15-4
BT 7 (this only becomes 7.30pm if I have to nurse to extend naps, which sometimes increases the total duration of that nap [sleep-nurse-sleep] to 2hrs, and up to a few days ago I sometimes had to do this for both naps. Other reason of it becoming 7.30 is if he would be fussy to put down because of OT)
His first A time is in effect quite long, but it's low key and quite 'relaxing', so he doesn't get OT.. It's our first baby, so a quiet house, daddy's off to work early morning, so we do Feeding and cuddles in bed, then he spends time in bouncer, under mobile, just watching me do chores, we have breakfast and walk the dog (in baby carrier back pack) and have lots more cuddles in between these things. There's little real baby play (which we save for pm) and no flashing lights, bouncy music or tv ... :-))
So maybe I can try to shift to 7.30pm bedtime - although I must say when we have had those (and not bc he was OT), he never woke any later in the morning :-(
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Last night was like this
BT 7
NW 10.30
NW 1.45
EW 4.45
I fed him, left him ... Went back in to settle, out again ... Done this a few times, then changed nappy, settling and leaving two more times. (The reason I leave is because he is so wake, me being there doesn't help, he is not crying, just awake and playing). At 5.45 I took him into my bed :( he nursed and slept until 6.50. Cuddles and then WU at 7am.
Today I increased both A times to 3.5 hrs and that worked super well:
WU 7am
A 3.5 hrs
S 10.30 - 11.55 (1hr20)
A 3.5 hrs
S 3.25 - 4.45 (1hr20)
So I think about a BT of 7.30-7.45? And then see what the night brings.
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Today I increased both A times to 3.5 hrs and that worked super well:
Oh yes that day looks good!
So I think about a BT of 7.30-7.45? And then see what the night brings.
Yes, also sounds like a good plan.
WRT moving the day on. A times don't get longer for this, just everything moves (so, ok, the first few days things do get further apart but then they go back in line). I'm not really sure how much those early morning snuggles might be effecting him, perhaps in the habit of waking at 4.30 to get a feed and the hope of moving into your bed instead of going back to sleep and waiting until it really is morning?
WRT night feeds you asked in your previous post. I believe it is quite normal for BF babies this age to have 2 NFs. I'm not much help when it comes to BF advice as I was unable to so mine was on formula and 1 NF which we dropped about 6-7 months as he was fine without.
You could perhaps post as a question on the BF board if you need some clarification of how many night feeds or advice on what to do at the 4.30am NF...I know if it was me I'd be looking to move that feed to WU time but like I said I am no good on BF advice.
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Well ... Certainly a different night and I think better ... After a BT of 7.45pm he woke at 22.30 and I fed him, but I really shouldn't have bothered, as it was clearly for comfort and I actually had to prod him a bit to keep drinking! Then again at 23.45 with a more proper feed and then he woke up at 5.45am. He almost went back to sleep after his feed, but decided to wake up properly after all. Left in his cot until 6.30 and has gone to bed (10.15) for his first nap - this was a bit too late (woke after 30-40min OT, but nursed back to sleep). So the later BT did not really result in a later WU time, but there was no 3-4am feed ...
I would like to aim for one NF around midnight and then the next at WU, which should hopefully be no earlier than 6am (ideally a little later than that even). It has happened a few times that his first NW would be at midnight or even closer to 1am and we also had nights that after a feed around 10-11pm he would not wake until 5-6am, so to me it seems that he can cope without feeds for longer spells. I'll ask about this on the BF forum as you suggest.
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So the later BT did not really result in a later WU time, but there was no 3-4am feed ...
It can take several days for Wu to move but also this particular later BT was down to the increased A time between naps to get better naps rather than from putting in place a plan to move the day on - moving the day on would be moving everything 15 mins later every day for several days until everything happens later than it is currently happening. So there are two different reasons for the later Bt if that makes sense.
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But we don't really have any fixed times for anything (ie eating), so not sure how rhat's done. And the later BT was down to a) later getting up time through cheating (sleeping some more in my bed) and b) increasing activity time, which led to two longer naps. Like I said we don't have set times for eating, but this has obviously been later due to longer A times and longer naps. The only standard thing is that I feed him when he wakes in the morning - should Impostpone this until say 7pm (solidas is not until after 8pm anyway). What would be the latest BT you recommend? We are currently holding on to 7.45pm, but again this morning it made no difference:
Yesterday
Awake at 5.45
Get up 6.30
A 3hrs 45min
S 10.15 - 10.50 (OT, had mis calculated)
Nursed back to sleep
S 11 - 12.25 (OMG!)
A 3hrs 30min
S 4 - 5
BT 7.45pm
NW 10.30 (standard) NF
NW 11.20 (just settled him)
EW 5.30
S 9.30 (today)
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With moving the day on imagine if the clocks change (don't know if they do or don't where you live, they do here in the UK), a 5.45am WU suddenly becomes a 4.45am WU and lets face it most people are not going to be happy with that. Even though there are no 'set' times for eating and sleeping everything gets moved on 15 mins day 1 another 15 mins day 2 etc until the hour change is reached. The 15 mins thing is what most people go for, long enough to get time to move, short enough not to cause too much OT.
If you usually call morning 6.30am (even though he woke earlier) then you begin by doing morning at 6.45am, count everything from there.
I'm not saying you have to do this, it is totally your choice. It's an option to try when a LO is (in general) well rested and getting a reasonable amount of sleep but in the 'wrong place'.
It's not for everyone though and some LOs appear to have body clocks which are super strong and hard to 'break'. Whilst I managed to move my DS on for the clock change when he was a baby it was impossible for me to move his day on to create a later BT and WU and when he got a touch older I discovered he wouldn't move his WU time at clock change either...I had to move his times rapidly and way over the hour before his body clock accepted that something was different to force a later WU. I know what it's like having the early morning, I was grateful when our WU was 5.30am (which felt massively different to 4.30 or 5am) and in heaven when we finally got 6.30am!
Your DS's nights do seem a bit short. Under 10 hrs is not ideal. If he's now in the habit of waking at 5.30 ish it's a really hard time to fall back to sleep, especially to self settle. It could well be that one or two days where naps are good and BT is significantly later could get him over that habit and begin to wake later again. With the day you detail above you might for instance give a long second nap and much later BT (nap as long as possible then the usual A before bed, sorry I forgot if that's 3hr before bed or 3hr 30, I can't see that page right now), not for ever but as a method to shift WU. Then slowly ease back on the BT. So with a 10hr night you could look at 8.30pm BT - but this has to be within reasonable A times, I think you know that, it wouldn't just be suddenly giving a 5hr A time before BT yk? Getting into (or back into) the habit of sleeping to 6.30 can get him past the tricky 5.30 ish NW time and you could then slowly bring BT earlier to see if the night extended to beyond 10hrs.
The other option would be to offer a much earlier BT and see if that helps, so something like 6.30pm offering an 11hr night before he reaches the 5.30am time and see if he will do it and is overall better rested after having a shorter day.
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It is me again unfortunately ... In the past weeks we have tried to move the EW by shifting the day with some success, but I think I might just have to accept that DS does not seem to sleep for more than 10 hours a night (??). I have put him to bed between 8-9pm (once even later) and he did sleep until later in the morning, but never longer than 10 hours a night. Shifting bed time back towards 7.30pm has resulted in earlier wake ups again. This however is not the issue at the moment ... We have seen teeth and we have been pretty ill and bad habits have crept in with lots of accidental patenting .. The result: baby only sleeps when I'm there, preferably in my bed, with boob near. I can get him to sleep without nursing fairly easily, but he will wake up after 10, 20, or 30 minutes and this is not because of OT I think. I can go in and settle him fairly easily, but he won't stay asleep. It's like he wakes up to check I'm still here .. (I am stting next to his cot atm during his first nap). I cannot get him to fall asleep on his own (which he did do for naps for one magical week!), I have to be in the room, singing his bed time song, or shushing, and usually touching his face (he needs the touch to pretend there is a breast).. In contrast to a few months back, I don't think it's specifically the boob anymore, it seems to be 'just' my presence now (separation anxiety during the night only??). I once had him in bed with me for a nap and I sawhim wake up, look up to the ceiling and ready to let out this massive cry, but then he turned his head and saw me (and I just saud shussh) and he closed his eyes and fell straight back to sleep. Because of the sleep problems, routine is a bit messed up but we are on 2 naps (first one is now always too short). He actually seems tired much earlier than after the 3hrs15 - 3.5 hrs I stuck to during his magic week if self settling. Is this normal / possible, that A decrease at a certain time?
I re-read secrions of Tracy's book again and am wondering whether indeed I need to stay next to him, while he is in the cot, to teach him to stay asleep. Which is why I'm sitting here now .. I don't want him sleeping in my bed, but that's where we ended up every night and for naps (pm naps are always in the pram / car). Perhaps not even because he'd be impossible to settle, but because I simply did not have the strength and energy to make it happen in the middle of the night .. But with work and nursery starting in a couple of weeks, I really want to. So I am mentally andvphysically ready and am asking for your support and how you think I can best tackle this?
PS didn't know whether to start a new post, feel free to move / start this as a new post
PS 2 Do you think a Ewan the Dream Sheep might work to replace me (I know another prop, but it could just stay on all night??) it just seems that my breathing (coughing, sniffing and turning around in bed) seems to keep him asleep ...
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Reading some other posts and a link on SA posted, I am thinking it may have been a combination of teething (we currently have the top ones coming through) and separation anxiety. But is the latter possible only at night with mummy? LO has absolutely no problem with strangers, he smiles at everyone all the time and I can literally dump him with anyone and leave - as long as he's not on his own seems to be the motto, because he does not like to be left alone in a room (but even as long as the dog is there or the tv is on he is totally fine!!). Also, I have been sitting next to his cot this whole time and he stirred after 30 and 45 min into his nap and I only had to shush and he stayed asleep. I also put him to bed after only 2hrs45 of A, much shorter than I normally would, because although we woke up at 6.45am eventually, he was initially awake at 5.30am and again just after 6am (we were in my bed and I nursed him and we dosed off again), after a fretful night of waking every 2 hrs ...
So he is sleeping well, in his own bed, as long as I'm sitting next to him to help him transition through the difficult bits .... which I obviously don't want to have to keep doing. What do I do?
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In the past weeks we have tried to move the EW by shifting the day with some success, but I think I might just have to accept that DS does not seem to sleep for more than 10 hours a night (??).
If he only does a 10 hr night then this may be just what you accept for now. Mine did 10.5hr nights and I realised this was just his max night sleep. He did longer short a short time around nap drop then it would shorten again, and eventually when he dropped to no naps at all he ended up with a 12hr night. some LOs just don't seem to do a longer night no matter what you do.
It's a bit confusing to work out where you are up to tbh.
So, you are with him throughout naps and nights?
Where are you both sleeping?
Have you stopped feeding to sleep now?
Are you holding to sleep?
I feel I'll have to warn you that this may not be resolved to the point of a fully settled routine with him self settling in the space of just 2 weeks before you go back to work.
Do you use white noise? It sounds as though this could be just the thing for your LO if he likes the sound of you shushing or just breathing to feel comforted.
Whilst LOs do need extra support when teething or ill and do need responding to more frequently when there is SA, the level of prop use can be more difficult or less difficult to remove depending what you've chosen to do to get through the tricky time.
What is it you are really aiming for now honey?
He sleeps naps and nights in his own bed in his own room?
He self settles (no feed to sleep or hand on him throughout the sleep)?
Do you feel you are ready to commit day and night to sleep training?
also how old is he now?
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Ok let me try to answer your questions ... Up until yesterday he would fall asleep in his cot and stay there until I would go to bed. In those 2-3 hours he would gave already wojen several times, during which I would go in to settle him, usually without feeding and very little picking up. When he wakes once I'm in bed, I tend to take him into bed with me. He sometimes sleeps very well with only 1 waking after that (during which I feed) and a couple of stirring, but he might wake every 1-2 hours and I then usually have to nurse him to sleep if simple shushing is not enough. At BT he feeds right before sleep and will usually fall asleep on the boob, but wakes when I put him down in his cot. I can then settle him in his cot (hand to face).
Naps are worsening. He falls asleep in his cot without feeding (but I have to be there to settle him), but the last few days ge's been waking up so often during naps too (after 10, 20 or 30 minutes and tgen again after I settle him) that when he wakes for the 2nd or 3rd time I would either nurse him to sleep or again take him into bed and we nap together. Afternoon naps are usually in the pram during a long walk.
Today I have 'started' keeping him in his cot and no nursing. I stayed with him, while he was in his cot, so I would be there when he woke - hoping to extend his nap time without him waking up - with some success. This is how it looked today
Wu 6.45 (co-sleeping and awake at 5.30 and 6, nursed to dooze / sleep)
S 9.25-10.35 (shushed back to sleep after 25 and again after 45 min into nap)
A 10.35-2.05 (3.5 hrs)
S 2.05 -2.30 (stirred, open eyes, little cries and arching back: i shushed, stroked head etc but it was just getting worse, so picked him up for half a minute, rubbed his back and sang his song and put him back down once settled. Then held my hand against his face / mouth and sang his nighty night song)
S 2.35-3 (eyes open and wake, rubbing and little cries. I did pupd for 25 min, then got him up, opened curtains and got him dressed and nursed him)
BT 7.20
Tonight I nursed at the start of his routine instead of at the end, so he went into his cot without nursing. However, he was pretty much asleep already on the changing mat. Asleep in his cot with a few lullabies and head stroking. I sat next to him for another 10 minutes then left the room.
He is 8 months old next week
I'm aiming for 2 naps a day, whereby he falls asleep independently and stays asleep for at least 1 hour and 15 minutes. And for night time I am aiming for ideally only 1 night feed (after midnight)and if needs be an early morning feed, expecting a 10 hour night (with a BT of 7.30-ish). Mind you that an early morning feed with such EW often does not result in sleep after the 2nd feed.
He does not self settle (he did this for only about a week before illness and teeth)
I do not use white noise
I am ready to commit!!
Can use advise on how to do pupd at this age and how to deal with him when he wakes up from his naps (for 2nd or 3rd time) after an hour, as I am not getting him back to sleep (and when I do get him up he's a very happy smiley boy too). He is heavy, his mattress is down, so not ideal for pupd atm (though can put mattress back up because he's not rolling in his cot). Holding him calms him at first and he'll fall asleep if I keep holding him, but when i put him down then after a few times he just gets upset even when i pick up again, and no matter what I do after a while helps calm him again it seems??.
And I guess my immediate question is whether I should put a mattress next to the cot and sleep there (perhaps this would be more for my benefit?) or is that counter productive?
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I know I messedit up with all the props, but the only 'bright side' is that my baby seems pretty adaptable and 'Angel' (and a bit of spirited) and that he 'learns' quickly ... (She said after taking up 5 pages on this forum ;-)
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he 'learns' quickly ... (She said after taking up 5 pages on this forum ;-)
ha ha, amusing Antie :)
Ok, so first a bit of reading on PUPD.
10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd
The dirty dozen: 12 reasons PU/PD won't work
And then I'll say PUPD is not really the route to go right off. I know at the beginning of the thread you said you had used PUPD for a few days and had then been able to settle using shush/pat, at this point shush/pat or stroking, a hand on him etc are what I would suggest (along with some gradual withdrawal as needed) and to use PUPD as a last resort.
I am ready to commit!!
This really is the key. When you have a soothing method such as BF to calm and get him back to sleep it may be very tempting to do so when you are tired. I just want to say before you set out on this that it is likely to be tiring, you are likely to miss some sleep, it is likely to be hard, frustrating, he is likely to cry...and it will all be for nothing if you resort to BF as a prop again or if you bring him back to your bed when you are tired. It is unfair to both yourself and your LO to go through hours or even days of sleep training, loss of sleep, crying etc only to then return to the props - so only start if you feel sure.
Throughout the sleep training I suggest you respond to 'I need you' cries rapidly (only holding back if it is a mantra cry, a low level repetitive type sound) use touch, shushing, patting or a hand near his face to help reassure, pick up to calm him if he is getting very upset or crying hard and put down when fully calm, but not to resort to feeding or co-sleeping.
During naps you keep him in his room and try to resettle until the end of nap time (nap time is at least 1hr 30) this means if he wakes after 1hr you do your best to resettle for 30 mins. Then you get him up and move on with A time.
A times after a short nap (anything under 1hr 30 is short), many people reduce the A time following a short nap. In your case I'm going to suggest you hold the A time pretty firmly because you want/need results as quickly as possible (before you return to work) and this is the most straight forward way to get onto a decent routine. So time the A time from when the nap should have ended even if he was not asleep and give a full A time (if you really need to put him down sooner then make it no more than 15 mins). When you record your EAS you will need to note down when he actually woke (as this is the 'real' A time) to when he actually went to sleep but this A time will be longer than those shown below. This may well elad to OT but when you are dropping props, sleep training and putting LO on a regular routine some OT can turn out to be in your favour, eventually he *will* sleep.
I hope this makes sense.
So I think the place to start is where you last had an A time he would sleep from, I think that was 3hr 30.
here's a routine to work with:
WU 6.00 if he wakes before this and is quiet leave him to it, if he cries for attention respond with shush/pat until 6am
A 3hr 30
S 9.30 - 11.00/11.30
A 3hr 30 (the real A time might be longer than this if he napped short)
S 2.30 - 4/4.30
A 3hr 30
BT 7.30/8.00
NF when he wakes and there has been a 4hr+ interval between feeds
night expect 10 hrs, but FX with a decent length first A time and learning to sleep without props he will lengthen this at least a bit.
Other things:
If he only calms in arms and starts to nod off you need to get him in the cot, you have mentioned putting him down after he has fallen to sleep and that after a few times of this he then just cries and continues to cry even if you pick up again, it's because he is really tired, he is getting frustrated with you putting him down and likely giving you a firm talking to about it, be sympathetic and understanding of his frustration and hold him until he is calm but then put him down, keep your hands firmly on him, it might not be super comfortable for you but it may help to reassure him and as he gets increasingly tired he might give in to the sleep if your hands are on him and he is almost picked up, or picked up securely but only a few mm away from his mattress. I would avoid trying to 'sneak' him down after he is asleep as it's almost like cheating him and if he is going to learn to settle without your help then he needs to learn how to fall to sleep in the cot. If he happens to nod off in your arms either wake him put him down and settle him in the cot or tell him loudly "I'm putting you down now so you can sleep properly, everything is okay" and put him down.
Putting a mattress on his floor - sure if you can fit one in the room. This can make the nights easier for you but don't give in to the temptation to bring him onto the mattress with you, he needs to sleep in his cot. You might find a way to put a hand on him to reassure but remember to remove it once he is reassured. You might find a key phrase helpful "go to sleep" to use instead or as well as shushing.
White noise - your LO might really like this if you want to try it. it replaces the shushing (can be used during wind down or you can sing or shush for wind down and then put the white noise on) and provides a background noise he can focus on, he no longer feels as alone as when the room is silent. You said he seems to do well with the sound of your breathing or with the TV on so white noise could be a useful tool here. There are a variety of white noise machines on the market, or you can download and burn to CD various free white noise tracks or paid for tracks (google to find some, there are lots which are a very small payment) or there are CDs which can be bought and set to repeat play throughout the nap/night. Some people set their ipod or phone to play the white noise. There are also various other noises, pink noise, brown noise, blue noise which you can explore. Have a think.
The main thing here is to keep moving forward with the goal of him self settling, don't linger your hand on him if it is not needed, remove it, you can always replace it again if needed. Don't be scared of him waking up, instead see it as another opportunity to practise settling and self settling. Don't be scared to leave the room, you can always walk back in. Basically don't make yourself too comfortable and stay 'aware' of what you are doing. it is quite easy to get carried away with patting, holding, staying in the room etc but don't, you always respond but always keep moving forward with that goal in mind.
Well, that's a lot to read through and think about.
xx
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Thank you so much creations, I am already feeling less alone and it is all very good advise. I went to see a friend tonight, but my DH phoned and by the time I got home he had been going *apepoo** (his words not mine) for about 45 minutes. Nothing DH did had helped, as he is normally not involved in putting him to bed (something to work on). LO stopped crying as soon as Inwalked in and it took less than 2 minutes to get him back in his cot asleep, without nursing (although he had pretty much immediately fallen asleep in my arms, so did go down asleep).
A of 3hrs30 was on the long side (I remember he slept well on 3hrs15 but after a few days he started waking again after 45 min for am nap, so I was going to increase morning A time) - I will check my diary. Anyway, today he only had 1hr sleep in the morning and again in the afternoon and was still smiling, so can try it. If I thought it was too long (atm he seems to struggle already after 2.5-3 hrs in the morning), would I adjust it to 3hrs15 from a 6am wake up and thus ending up with a slightly earlier BT? If he wakes up later (one can wish!) do I let him sleep and keep the same A times?
Couple of questions:
- when he wakes after 6am (or before but i tried to get him back to sleep until 6am) and indo do my big hoolahoop proud mummy your such a fantastic sleeper dance, can i then take him into my bed (with lights on) for morning feed and snuggle? Do I actually have to get up ... (I think i know the answer but thought i ask anyway) Do I give morning breast feed right after 6am, or wait until eg 7am? (Often he's not feeding in the morning because he will have been awake early morning between say 4-5am and got fed then)?
- LO is very easily distracted during feeds and i basically need to sit in nursery,with door closed and turn off the lights. Do I do this (a while) after he wakes up, or what would be the best timing? It has happened in the past that he would fall asleep on the boob after I got him up from his nap and this was even with lights on and fully dressed... (Do I then wake him up?)
- we are going away for the weekend and are staying the night with friends. I was going to sleep with him in the double bed ... Postpone sleep training until after, or separate travel cot in the room and just get on with it (don't see why not - note to self, bring ear plugs for friends ;-)
- when i do feed him during the night (if it has been more than 4 hours since last feed), is it ok for him to feed until he is asleep (can i put him back into his cot asleep, or do i actually need to wake him)?
- when i feed him during the night when it's been more than 4 hours, but i notice he doesn't really drink much and it's really more for comfort (he might fall asleep straight away or after only one breast), what would be my plan for the next night?
- if he wakes up early morning, but before 6am, but it has been 4 hrs (eg if he wakes and feeds at 1am and then wakes at 5am or 5.30am), do I feed him (does this not create habitual waking in the early morning?) hoping he'll fall back asleep (but not on the boob?) until passed 6am even, or do I not feed him and try getting him back to sleep until 6am?
- what does FX stand for?
- say he sleeps for an hour and it then takes me 25 min to get him back to sleep. Do I then wake him from / cap his nap, or let him sleep? Same for the morning?
Re mattrass - i just removed my own (single) bed out the nursery a couple of weeks back as I hadn't used it for a long time. Might put it back!
Re white noise - our fancy baby monitor plays white noise, so very easy to come by. I might give this a try. How would I get him used to it, ie make this a positive sleep association? We have another tune during wind down (but this requires pulling a giraffe's tail and does not last very long, so I only do this [over and over] during wind down), then a special nighty night song that I usually sing until he's asleep - I should probably stop that before he falls asleep?
Wise words about not getting too scared. He has been sleeping so lightly that we end up tip toeing, which is good for no one. x
Update of night 1:
BT 7.20
NW 8.30-9.15
NW 10.20-10.25
NW / NF 11.30-11.45 (started a bit reluctant, butbsteadily emptied both breasts)
Fell asleep on the boob, in cot asleep
NW 11.55 (screaming, where did that boob go?!) - 11.58
NW 00.45-00-50
NW / NF 4.25-5.55 (this was hard, feeding only lasted 15-20 min of this time)
WU 7.45
How to adjust the day ... I think A time of 3 hrs15 might be enough today, given he's likely not to take super duper naps on this second day (yesterday 2 hrs 10 in total!)
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If you feel starting at 3hr 15 is better then go for it, remember I am only here reading words and times, you are with him and you are Mummy :)
I imagine that his A would be a bit longer now as he is a bit older, I'm judging by what you've said about the week he slept well on 3hr 15 - 3hr 30 which was a little while back.
I'll try to answer your questions best I can:
would I adjust it to 3hrs15 from a 6am wake up and thus ending up with a slightly earlier BT? If he wakes up later (one can wish!) do I let him sleep and keep the same A times?
Yes and yes. In fact although he had NWs last night it looks like he did 12+hrs in bed so it's possible his nights are not limited to 10hrs after all.
- when he wakes after 6am (or before but i tried to get him back to sleep until 6am) and indo do my big hoolahoop proud mummy your such a fantastic sleeper dance, can i then take him into my bed (with lights on) for morning feed and snuggle? Do I actually have to get up ... (I think i know the answer but thought i ask anyway)
I'd get right up. I know the snuggles are nice but for the training period he needs to know this is *day* and not dozing time.
Do I give morning breast feed right after 6am, or wait until eg 7am? (Often he's not feeding in the morning because he will have been awake early morning between say 4-5am and got fed then)?
It's up to you. Mine didn't like to eat the moment he woke up anyway and didn't have a 4am feed so his E time was always about 30 mins after WU.
You could feed at say 6.30, a top up which gets you back on track for the E times to fit with the rest of the day's routine.
- LO is very easily distracted during feeds and i basically need to sit in nursery,with door closed and turn off the lights. Do I do this (a while) after he wakes up, or what would be the best timing? It has happened in the past that he would fall asleep on the boob after I got him up from his nap and this was even with lights on and fully dressed... (Do I then wake him up?)
Some LOs do need a quiet room to feed without distraction, that's fine. I would keep him awake and if he nods off wake him up. The BW EASY routine is based on LO staying awake for feeds, it is difficult to drop a prop and work out the right A time if he is dozing or left to sleep whilst nursing.
- we are going away for the weekend and are staying the night with friends. I was going to sleep with him in the double bed ... Postpone sleep training until after, or separate travel cot in the room and just get on with it (don't see why not - note to self, bring ear plugs for friends ;-)
Personally I wouldn't put my friends through the sleep training days and wouldn't expect LO to sleep independently in a different environment which he is not used to... perhaps now is not the time to begin training.
- when i do feed him during the night (if it has been more than 4 hours since last feed), is it ok for him to feed until he is asleep (can i put him back into his cot asleep, or do i actually need to wake him)?
I would not aim for him to be asleep after a NF but many LOs can fall to sleep on a NF and still be independent sleepers. If he is asleep I would tell him you are putting him back in his bed so he can sleep properly.
- when i feed him during the night when it's been more than 4 hours, but i notice he doesn't really drink much and it's really more for comfort (he might fall asleep straight away or after only one breast), what would be my plan for the next night?
Does this often happen? If it is frequent it may be habitual in which case you might consider dropping a night feed. if it is one night then I wouldn't take it into account at all.
- if he wakes up early morning, but before 6am, but it has been 4 hrs (eg if he wakes and feeds at 1am and then wakes at 5am or 5.30am), do I feed him (does this not create habitual waking in the early morning?) hoping he'll fall back asleep (but not on the boob?) until passed 6am even, or do I not feed him and try getting him back to sleep until 6am?
If you feel he needs 2 night feeds then I'd feed him at the 5am. Some BF LOs do seem to need 2 night feeds a bit longer although I need to say I am not experienced in BF as I couldn't continue past 4wks so mine was FF and dropped his DF at about 6 months.
- what does FX stand for?
Fingers crossed :) A hope.
- say he sleeps for an hour and it then takes me 25 min to get him back to sleep. Do I then wake him from / cap his nap, or let him sleep? Same for the morning?
Wake him from his nap when it reaches 2hrs from the initial sleep time so if nap is 9.30 and he sleeps until 10.30, then you spend 25 mins getting him to sleep it will be 10.55 when he falls to sleep. Let him sleep until the 2hr mark, so 11.30 then wake him and follow this with a full A time.
For morning WU if it takes him past 6am I would wake him at 7am and begin the day, again with a full A time (so first nap comes 10.15/10.30)
Re white noise - our fancy baby monitor plays white noise, so very easy to come by. I might give this a try. How would I get him used to it, ie make this a positive sleep association? We have another tune during wind down (but this requires pulling a giraffe's tail and does not last very long, so I only do this [over and over] during wind down), then a special nighty night song that I usually sing until he's asleep - I should probably stop that before he falls asleep?
I would use the giraffe and song as your wind down then put him in bed. Once in bed turn the white noise on. Even with white noise you can continue to sooth him either until he is nodding (then stop) or until he is asleep (only if needed). at each stage of training you need to keep in mind your goal which is to put him down awake say something like "have a nice sleep, call if you need me" and leave the room. If at any stage you 'linger' on a particular soothing technique you are teaching him this is the way to sleep, so you continue to reduce, always responding when needed but always with a mind to reducing. Otherwise you will find yourself trapped in the room singing throughout the nap with a hand on him throughout the nap and the white noise playing too. The white noise is not considered a prop because it can continue without your input throughout sleep time.
Wise words about not getting too scared. He has been sleeping so lightly that we end up tip toeing, which is good for no one. x
White noise should help cover the sounds of life in the house so you can relax a bit more.
hope this helps. Good luck :)
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It's perhaps a bit soon for an update, but would like some advise on the naps because as it's going is not really working for me. I start winding him down, so he's ready to go into his cot at the suggested times. As soon as i put him down he starts screaming. As soon as i leave the room he screams (do i leave the room when he screams - do i go right back in when he screams?) but when I eventually get him to sleep by staying with him (which takes a while) he wakes many times, even in the first 30 minutes. When he does make the full 30 minutes, it's pretty impossible to get him back to sleep after this and I don't have a crying, but a screaming baby on my hands. There is no such thing as settling him in his cot, the only way is to pick him up, but as soon as I put him down (as soon as he stops crying) he starts screaming again, and again and again. Feels like cio just with me there (making it no better if not worse!) On the 2 occasions he did sleep an hour (which already required a lot of settling to get that far), it's pure screaming the remaining 'nap' time. When we then get up, he's happy as can be ...
Some days
WU 7.45
Put him down at 10.30
S 10.45 - 11.45
Put him down at 3.15
S 3.35 - 4.05
BT 7.30
NF 00.30 - 00.50
NW 03.30 - 4.35
NF 5.30 - 5.50
WU 6.50
We did go away for the weekend and timed his naps with the car ride. And he fell asleep in the baby carrier the other naps. The night there we co-slept, but I only fed him the two times (he did not actually wake much more than that anyway). So I was expecting a set back anyway.
Yesterday
WU 6.40
S 10.10 - 11.30 (baby carrier then trasferred to bed, went in to shush a couple of times)
S 5.40 - 5.15 (in car)
BT 8.15
NW 10.50-11.15
NF 11.50-00.10
NW 1.30-1.55
NF 4-4.45
WU 6.30
Today
WU 6.30
Put down at 10
S 10.20-10.30 (woke up everytime Inleft room x3)
S 10.30-10.55 and 11.05-11.30
S 3.30-4
Screamed until 4.40 then i gave up and got lights on ...
You said he will sleep .. I wonder when ... :-((( with these 'naps' I have no down time at all and I am finding it very hard.
You said not to go down the road of pupd yet. Why not? I'm wondering whether that at least is not a 'clearer' method? I know I'm not at it for very long, but doesn't all this shushing and stroking and singing just make him more dependent on me there? I just feel like i have no idea what i'm doing (tears) ...
It's not helping my sister is visiting and she keeps saying to just give him to her and after 3 nights (of crying) she'll have him sorted. I really do NOT wantbto use cio, but I feel so desperate (more tears) and having just finished another 1.5 hr crying sessiom, I am not sure what I'm doing is so much different or better.
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Hugs honey, I know this is hard for you.
You are right, there isn't much to update on when you have been away so things have not been set up for the best success just yet but it's ok to update and seek extra support when you feel you need it.
Sleep training is not easy. let me try to respond to some of what you've said:
You said he will sleep .. I wonder when ... :-((( with these 'naps' I have no down time at all and I am finding it very hard.
Sorry honey but you can't expect Y time during sleep training unless you call in the back up and get them to take LO during A time so you can rest/nap. Some times people share the work with DH, sometimes Mum does all the sleep training but has someone to take LO in A time, then mum picks up the responsibility at nap time again (ie the hard part).
I do acknowledge is it hard. it is not going to be like this for ever. I would advise to see it through now you're in it otherwise all this that you and LO have gone through already will be for nothing...and next time you try it could take longer because LO could think it's just a matter of crying longer to get you to change back to what he wants, the props.
As soon as i leave the room he screams (do i leave the room when he screams - do i go right back in when he screams?
Don't leave the room if he's screaming (unless you feel you absolutely must walk away to take a breather, sorry some parents do get to the end of their tether, it is safer to walk away if you reach the end of your but otherwise you stay and stay. If you do need to walk away try to say "I'm coming back" leave the room calm yourself, count to 10 if needed, then return when you have control of yourself, when you return say "I'm back" and give him a cuddle).
If he is calm and you leave the room and he screams, yes you go right back. With BW methods we do not agree with leaving LO to cry alone for any period of time (other than for safety reasons as said above).
There is no such thing as settling him in his cot, the only way is to pick him up, but as soon as I put him down (as soon as he stops crying) he starts screaming again, and again and again.
If you need to pick up then do so. When calm put down. When he scrams pick up. Use shush/pat in arms or in the cot when you can or a key phrase if the shushing bothers him (sorry I forgot what he prefers and haven't had time to read back). At some point he will be so close to sleep that he will basically nod off the second you pick him up, at this point put down right away and keep your hands close so you can briefly pick up again if he screams again. When you put down you can keep your hands on him for reassurance.
Feels like cio just with me there (making it no better if not worse!)
Research on rhesus monkeys shows that cortisol (stress) levels are low or barely detectable when the parent in in view and he can hear her in contrast to extremely high (damaging) levels where young monkeys cannot see or hear their mother and receive no comfort. Monkeys who can see/hear/touch their mother might cry longer and louder than those who have no mother present but this is because those without the mother present 'give up'. I strongly believe that crying with you present is not at all the same as CIO or CC. your LO might well cry louder and longer but his stress levels are low, it is not harmful to his brain development and he knows he is safe, so long as you are there he knows 'mum says this is ok so I must be safe' it isn't going to stop him shouting in frustration though. He has had props for, what, 8 months? so he has been taught this is how to sleep and now yo are changing the rules, of course he will shout and cry. Try to be reassured that this is not CIO.
You said he will sleep .. I wonder when ...
Every nap in the cot with the same WD and the same rules, he will get it in 3 days. I'm afraid if you keep changing the rules he will not get it so soon, trips away, car naps, carrier naps etc are not going to teach him how things are going to be. It is the consistency plus parental support which will help him learn to sleep independently.
You said not to go down the road of pupd yet. Why not?
PUPD is a last resort method. We always use shush/pat (or adapted, key phrase with firm hand say) before PUPD because it is gentler and because after initial sleep training you will need something to return to time and again to help you LO during normal struggles (illness developmental leaps, teething, nightmares etc), you want LO to associate something with comfort a stroke or pat a key phrase if not shush, rather than always waiting until he is screaming and starting PUPD.
In addition PUPD cannot be used where there are props in place. In your case the temptation to mix with props is, I think too strong. You haven't yet had a clear run of sleep training to try PUPD anyway with the car naps, carrier naps etc.
When do I use PU/PD?
10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd
but doesn't all this shushing and stroking and singing just make him more dependent on me there?
Not more dependent on you, more trusting of you. the more you are there (but without the props) the more he learns to trust that you will *always* come when he needs you. That is the point at which he feels safe and confident to fall asleep alone because he *knows* you will always always respond to a need, he can trust you so much that he doesn't need you.
It's not helping my sister is visiting and she keeps saying to just give him to her and after 3 nights (of crying) she'll have him sorted.
I'm sorry that your sister is not supportive. Personally I'd tell her to mind her own if she isn't going to offer the sort of support you could use/need/accept. She could offer to take LO during A time so you can rest and you will do the sleep training.
CIO breaks the bond of trust it is damaging for LOs, I wouldn't fall out with your sister over this but neither would I listen to her.
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!
Again I want to reassure you that supporting your child whilst sleep training, being there responding to him, picking him up, using a key phrase or shush/pat is not the same as CIO.
You wanted to commit to this before returning to work. commit from now, cot naps and nights with your support, and you will see results, and not results that are harmful but results that maintain your LOs trust in you.
hugs, I know you are tired. Try to remember your aim, try not to listen to unhelpful people.
xx
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Hi Creations, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! I want you to know that you are really pulling me through here and that I am ever grateful. I's sent you flowers if I knew who you were and where you live.
Some credit to my sister is due, even if she would (and has) personally do things differently, she respects my ways and is very helpful in looking after him during A times and better yet, cooking for us just now. She even offered to take him during the night, or parts of the evening so I could get some shut eye and would follow 'my way'. And she cleaned my whole house ... You wonder how I dare complain in the first place, but it is SO draining to listen to your baby cry for such long periods of time. I just felt like a complete emotional wrack yesterday.
Your explanations and links regarding cio versus what I'm doing are SUPER helpful, validating the time and effort I'm putting in. You won't believe this, but I'm actually a research fellow in primatology :-) It is all the reading I've done throught the years, listening to people like Jane Goodall speak and the time I have spent in the field observing baboons, that tells me in my gut that I'm doing the right thing. Now that I actually have a baby, I have NO time or energy to research the different sleep training methods, so I am grateful for your summary and links with scientific paper references!!
I definately think LO has been overstimulated and OT going down for naps. He is an Angel, but also very spirited and I remember they need a good wind down period. I skipped the bath completely yesterday (as this is mostly play for him and he comes out very tired!) and just played and cuddled in dark room with lullabies. He was nearly asleep again on the changing mat, putting on pyamas...
Still a lot of NW, but at least no prolonged stretches of being awake (those kill me)
BT 7.40
NW 8.30 (very briefly - hand on chest and back asleep)
NF (and nappy change needed) 11.30-00.00
NW 2.20-2.30
NF 3.20-3.40
NW 5-5.10
WU 6.15
He went down for his nap at 9.30 (A 3hrs 15) after a slightly lnger winding down period again,mand I am typing you this with him having been asleep for 1 hour and 10 minutes already (and counting!!). Yay!
Hope we are on the right track. Will update in a couple days. x
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Sounds like your sister is really helping out, that's wonderful.
And sounds like things are heading in the right direction too. Settling is getting easier it seems.
I'm actually a research fellow in primatology
amazing ! :)
Keep going then, rest when you can, take whatever help you can and don't be disheartened if there are still some tricky times to come. You can do this.
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Yay great progress, well done both of you :) There'll be bumps of course, but keep going and you'll get through them :-* And wow, how cool about your research :D
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I'll keep it short and sweet:
Yesterday Benjamin turned 8 months and he slept through the night, in his own cot, for the very first time. Yes ladies, you read correctly: on page 6 of my thread, my son HAS SLEPT THROUGH THE NIGHT!!!!!! BT at 7pm, a short wake up at 10pm for a soiled nappy change, cuddle and back to sleep (no boob in sight) and then did not wake until 5.45am. There is no emoji icon to describe my joy and disbelief ... and needless to say I was listening at his cot at 5am to check he was actually still breathing :-)
And today, we have had two 1.5 hour naps without feeding or very much fuss and without waking ...
I'm sad I have to go back to work next week, which undoubtedly mess things up, but we are getting the hang of things!!!
(But then I indeed do have cool work ... back to my baboons!)
PS Surely I must be winning the 'most-read-thread-award' by now 😜
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Great update!!!
I had to go and look at how many views you have...yeah it is surprisingly high!! Over 800 and you are not even a FAQ or sticky thread :D
I'll let you know a secret (it is not a secret at all I just pretend it is)...my DS is 5yo and I *still* go and check he is still breathing!!
Really glad things are going well - don't want to bust up the happy dance but do want to warn you - do not be surprised or alarmed by a 'regression' it can happen it is normal, respond to him and support him but don't bring the props back :-*
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:D :D :D :D :D
Great news, well done both of you :-*
Aw it's hard going back to work, but you'll get into a new rhythm and you've helped DS so much by teaching him to sleep by himself :)