BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: ljperkins on December 12, 2015, 17:47:35 pm
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During thanksgiving my son stopped sleeping through the night. He used to go to bed around 7:30-8 and wake around 3-4am and sleep again until 7:30-8am. During the holiday he started waking every 2-3 hours. I thought it was a growth spurt and now it has been 2 weeks now and I want to make sure its not just habit now.
Also, about 4-5 days after not sleeping through the night all of the props like rocking and bouncing stopped working. At the time he was only doing 30-45 minute naps. So we started the sh pat method and really established a solid nap routine of reading and listening to lullaby and putting him down awake and he falls asleep on his own. So this week his naps are longer averaging about 60-120 minutes but mostly 90 minutes. He does wake at times at the 45 minute mark but typically goes back to sleep. He is still waking 3-4 times in the night. He is like a light, he is fully awake, the sh pat doesn't work in the night so I have just been nursing him and putting him back down. He does go back to sleep on his own.
Is this all normal with these night feedings?? He is in the lower percentile and always has been so I want to make sure he gets enough milk. Thank you so much!
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Hi and welcome to the boards :)
It's a rather crazy age actually. Just when you think you've got an idea as to what's going on here comes the 4mo sleep regression. It's notorious. Just look at the pages upon pages of historical posts on here. This does sound like a classic regression. You didn't post your easy but as you're saying the naps are going well, I'd doubt a tweak in routine is in order. I just want to check with the longer naps that a feed isn't being missed out now? Ideally BF bubbas tend to go around 3hrs between feeds, some longer some shorter.
There's a pretty massive growth spurt at this age too, so extra feedings can come into play. Unfortunately as you're BF you can't just add another one or two ounces into the bottle during the day like we'd do with FF bubbas. What I would watch out for is him asking to eat then just being on he here for a minute or two and using you as a prop to fall back to sleep. This doesn't sound like the case now, but just something to watch out for ok? I'll post a link for you that should explain it in more detail.
Also, do you have the wonder weeks app? Or have seen their website? It really has saved my sanity on more than one occasion xx
Six Weeks to Four Months: Growth Spurts - How to tackle them
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Thank you for the link and responding back!! :) I have been reading some of the forums and its been helpful! He is on an EASY schedule. Typically has two naps average 1 1/2 hours and last nap about an hour.
He is not extremely strict to that routine but he does get three naps in a day. I will try and pay more attention to the night feedings and see if he is actually nursing. Half of the time I am still half asleep myself. Ha! It threw me off when he stopped sleeping through the night.
I do have the wonder weeks app which has helped me understand and he may be doing that as well. He sometimes gets spacey, fussy or clingy right before.
He definitely keeps us on our toes! :-*
Wake 7:30/8am, nurse
Sleep 9/9:30 depending on the wake up
Wake 10:30/11am, nurse
Sleep 12/12:30
Wake 1:30/2, nurse
Sleep 3/3:30
Wakes at around 4:30/5, nurse right after nap and nurse right before bed
Bed depends on last nap but usually 6:30/7, we are needing to move this earlier I think because he was fighting it and I think is up too long after last nap.
NW are usually at 10, 1, 4-5, and sometimes 6 or 6:30
Do you think he is getting enough milk or do I need to cluster feed a bit?
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Tbh I'm by no means an expert about BF, having FF DD from 4mo. I'll go and ask a BF mod to pop by and give advice about that bit for you.
Wrt your day, I wonder if we could space it a little better for you if you feel the last A to BT is too long?
You're working on 1.5hrs for the first A aren't you? Maybe we could look at extending that by 15mins and holding for a few days? Wdyt? If you feel that's too much in one go for him, you could try adding 5mins on every other day? Some handle extending A times better than others, so it'll really be down to your judgement. I would also do the same with the second A and look at extending that one by 15mins too. If you're not getting any resistance for the CN I'd keep that at 1.5hrs A as you really want an UT there so he won't be too grumpy when you wake him up. That should hopefully reduce your last A by 30mins and keep the same BT.
After these ww and GS, there tends to be a need to increase the A times a little. The average for 4mo is 1hr 45mins - 2hrs. Some like more, some less, so we'll just try and extend that little bit since the naps aren't short atm and I just think your day will be better balanced. Fancy giving it a go and keeping me posted? Xx
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Your daytime feeds look good...not sure you could fit another feed in unless once you push the A times out you decide to.do top up feeds (a lot of time with a bf baby the shift to 2 hrs A time means too long until the next feed so a top up a ways before the nap helps space the feeds out). I found with my DD3 that at 4 months when she hit the gs/regression she did keep a couple night feeds where she previously hadn't - I tried other settling methods but she was truly hungry. I chalked it up to increased activity and the need for more calories. We could not have fit in another daytime feed even if I had wanted. Also bm is so digestible that waking to feed is very common for bf to continue util they are much older.
Do you do a dream feed at all? What about settling without a feed - as in try that first to see if he goes off without a feed? Does he take a soother?
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Thank you so much for both responding and taking the time to help me out. It is truly appreciated :)
I will try and increase the A time tomorrow. I try to watch for cues for sleepiness and that is why I was on the 1.5 A time still because of his yawns and rubbing eyes. I will do the 5 minute increase just to ease him.
Last night he woke 3 times and all of them he nursed and seemed to actually be hungry. I have had my husband go in to soothe him but he is pretty awake and persistent. He doesn't calm down. He takes his paci sometimes but in bed he just keeps spitting it out so we haven't really used it anymore for sleep. I don't do a dream feed because he tends to wake around 10:30-11 which is when I would do a dream feed right?
He doesn't fight his naps when we put him down awake mostly but he is really fighting the BT. I am not sure why but may need to change his routine a little. I might need to search this forum for night routines.
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You will find sample routines for LO's on this site but I tend not to highlight them to individual posts. The reason is I drove myself nuts trying to get DD to fit into one of these so called ideal routines. We have to concentrate on the individual LO and find what works best for yours. More than happy to continue helping you out if you'd like?
The last nap is 1.5hrs isn't it? You could well cap it back to 1hr or even 1hr 15mins for now and with the increased earlier A times should help keep his same BT.
He isn't showing an OT NW's in the early part of the night so I actually think the last. A might be a little short after that longer nap. It is usual to have a shorter nap as the last one just to get them to BT. I think with increasing the other A's we'll have to cap that last nap anyway to keep to the same length of day xx
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I'd say he needs a routine tweak. That EASY would be perfect for a 3mo but he likely isn't awake long enough before the three naps or BT. So he probably struggles to get I to a deep sleep overnight and is waking up and then feeling hungry rather than transitioning to the next sleep cycle.
I'd definitely move towards a 2hr A time.
3 NFs at 4mo is not excessive though.
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Just checking in... How's it going now? Xx
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Thank you for checking in! I was going to post the other day but LO was all over with sleep at night. I was waiting to see if it was just a bad night.
Two nights ago he was waking every 2 hours and 20 minutes or so but had a BM in the early morning and wondering if that was the cause of it or the friends we had for dinner that night could have been too much as well. Last night he slept the first stretch almost 4 hours and then woke up 2 more times almost 3 hours apart. Then soiled himself again in the early AM causing an earlier rise. I have been doing 1 hour and 45 minutes A times and it seems to be going well. I think 2 hours A time is too much right now.
My biggest challenge is I would like his BT to be around 7:30. Many times his last nap, he will wake at 4 or 4:30 causing us to put him to sleep at 6/6:30. I am not sure if I could just squeeze in one more CN in there if he wakes early?? wdyt? The past couple of nights the naps lined up and we were able to get him to sleep around 7:30/8 which was much better and didn't seem to fight as much.
He is fighting the naps a little and I am wondering if its because he wants to roll or the increased A time. I am not sure how we will handle that when it comes but I will search the forums.
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Usually when they're fighting naps is a need for the. A time to be increased. What they could not handle 2 weeks ago suddenly they are able to. The only option for the time being is to try to move out the naps so BT can become later. It'll take time, but there will be many times throughout the next year or so that'll you have to have earlier bt's and then later ones. It's all part and parcel of growing up and the need for increased A times.
I personally wouldn't do another CN, I think too many little cn's really effect night sleep.
Do you want to try maybe adding 10mins onto each A time and see if that's a bit better? Xx
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Thank you!
I wasn't thinking to add more A time. He has been a little fussy when getting close to nap time but the more I think about it, I think he needs a change of scenery. I have him on the floor playing for awhile. I will try a longer A time...close to 2 hours then. Another question...do I need to feed him a second time during the A time since it is longer? If so when do I nurse him?
That sounds good about the BT being earlier and then later in their life. That completely makes sense.
It is so nice to have you help me. :)
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That's what I'm here for ;).
Ah this is when we start to implement a more of an EAEASY plan. Confused yet? ;). Basically once the A times start stretching so far that feeds could potentially be missed or that they could wake early from a nap due to hunger, we try and do a top up feed 30mins or so before a nap is due. Then we just do a little A, even if it's just a nappy change and wind down, then into bed. It gets difficult when you're stretching A times for them not to fall asleep, so does take some perseverance on your part. If he does fall alseep, don't worry about it too much as long as it's not for every nap and BT, it'll be fine. Does that make sense? Xx
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My LO has gone through what seems to be a big night time regression. The night prior it took us 2 1/2 hours of trying to get him to sleep. Also, in the night after two nursings I could hear him on the monitor talking and making noise for about 40 minutes. This made a later wake up time the next morning at 9am which threw off the naps. We woke him in the morning and we woke him for his last two naps.
This last night he soothed himself for almost an hour and then started crying. He had a poopy diaper so we changed it and I fed him again and put him down. He basically cried himself to sleep with me doing sh pat. Then he just woke up at 4am for his second feed and decided to not fall back asleep and just cried himself to sleep again with me doing sh pat.
I am very lost and don't know what is going on and really need some support and advice right now. It is just breaking my heart listening to him cry.
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Ok what's the last couple of days looked like? Would you mind posting them for me in real time?
It is hard listening to them cry but you are there with him. That's the important bit. Crying is their way of communicating with you. We just need to figure out what he's trying to say to us. I have a feeling he may be UT during the day and that's not helping his night sleep.
Did you manage to increase the. A time? I remember our A times were low at 4mo and it took an age to settle, then I think OT set in. But I'd like to check your routine and see what's going on before guessing ok?
Have you got the wonder week app? Or seen their website? That also explains a lot too wrt sleep disturbances. Look forward to hearing from you xx
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Friday schedule:
woke at 8:10am
Nap 10:15-12:35pm (had hiccups so a little late putting down)
Ran a few errands not far away, baby wore him
Nap 2:30-4:10pm
no third nap
BT 6:10 didn't fall asleep until 8:20pm
NW 12:30, fed for about 20 minutes, heard him on monitor soothing for about 40 minutes roughly, never cried
NW around 4am, changed him-had a poop, fed and heard him on the monitor again for another 40 minutes or so, never cried
Saturday
We woke him at 8:50am
nap 10:50-12:30pm
nap 2:15-2:55, we woke him so we could fit one more nap in
nap 4:55-5:45
BT 7:05, soothed for an hour and was tooting, started crying and noticed he pooped, changed, nursed again, laid back down fell asleep at 8:50pm
NW 12:30 went back to sleep
NW 4am and cried to sleep with sh pat
Current Day
woke for the day at 7:50am
just woke from nap went from 9:45-11:30am
Thank you again for helping me out, I just hate it when he cries. I feel helpless and it has really been getting to me. I am not sure if its the pooping. He was pooping when I put him down for naps during the week too.
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I hate it when poop gets in the way >:(. It goes through stages of it, then magically stops, for it to restart again ::). Some people find actually hearing headphones whilst sshing helps as the crying is not so intense on the ears. Worth a thought? Wish I'd known about it sooner as I think it would've helped me stay a lot calmer.
The A times look fab, and great naps! Well done you! But I think you might need to stretch your day a little. Have you noticed he's trying to work to an exact 12hr day? Clever little one ;)
If you're set on having his BT around 7,30pm, you might need to consider waking him at 7.30am in the morning. This option might take him a couple of days to get used to as effectively you'll be chopping his night sleep on the first night. Either that or have a later BT for now? Wdyt?
You can try for a CN a little earlier than the 2hrs A as ideally you want that one to be an UT nap. Maybe 1hrs 45mins A? Does mean you have to reduce the last A too as they can handle less after a short nap. So something like this..
Wu 7.30
A 2hrs
S 9.30-11.10
A 2hrs
S 1.10-3.50
A 1 hr 45
S 5.35-6.25
A 1hr 15
BT 7.45
Thinking yours has a 50mins sleep cycle as 1hr 40mins sleeps. That's where this gets thrown off a bit above. We could cap the last nap to 30mins and that should get you your 7.30 BT?? Xx
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Thank you! Yes the poop thing is new and he has increased those. Maybe the headphones would help, thank you. Last night he has started self soothing differently so he could be doing a lot of changes right now.
I am definitely not set on a 7:30 BT, I was trying to go with more of his schedule and naps, his crying is just making these BT late now. These past few nights of crying I thought I had messed up the time to put him down for BT. For the most part with Saturday being an exception, he consistently wakes between 7-8am but he does seem to have a 12 hour night schedule like you said. :) I was just hoping I am not missing something. I guess as long as you think he isn't getting too much or too little sleep??
I am trying very hard and I know I am hard on myself. I feel like there is something I am doing wrong and that is why he is crying but he may just need to get emotions out or work something out that I have no control over..
I like the 50 minute sleep cycle you observed too. I didn't see that :)
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All we can do is try and tune in and listen to the signs he's given us. You're not doing anything wrong at all, you're doing as we all do and wing it. Especially at this age with silly growth spurts and sleep regressions to contend with ::).
If you're not set on a 7.30am BT, just use the A times I set out below and take it from wu in the morning. And keep me posted! I do think once we increase the day and consequently decrease the A time BT it will get easier for you xx
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So a quick update with a question. LO is doing good. Seems to be having a little bit of easier time going down at night but still has issues. The screaming isn't as bad and not as long typically. We have increased the A time to 2 hours during the day.
At night lately he is waking after his sleep cycle of 50 minutes just the first time of initially putting him down for the night. The shh/pat makes it worse, he really gets upset so I have been nursing him and put him back down and he is right back to sleep. Is this normal? I am not sure if I am creating a bad habit or why he is waking like it is a nap.
Thank you and happy new year!
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It could well be he's OT by BT. What A time are you working off before BT? We had that too, sometimes they prefer a shorter A time to bed compared to the rest of the day. You could look at reducing that by 10-15mins and see if that makes a difference xx