BabyWhispererForums.com
ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: JennVanessa1083 on December 13, 2015, 18:40:11 pm
-
Hi!
I feel like I haven't left the forum since my DS was 4 months old. I had amazing help in extending DS short naps and improving night sleep so I definitely look to this forum as my source of solving baby mysteries!
We went through a terrible sleep regression and things improved somewhat throughout the 5 month mark expect for chronic ENW which at this point I have accepted as a norm haha
My concern lies in the A times for my almost 6.5 month old. He went through or still is going through a major growth spurt and it feels like I can't get his A times right. I tried the set nap route for two weeks which I like but again I can't seem to get the A times right where I get restorative naps each time. I get a mixed bag; some days good naps, some days one good nap and one rubbish nap, and other days a double whammy of bad naps. I used to be able to resettle pretty well but the last few days it has taken me upwards of 20 minutes to resettle, but most of the time he fights it so hard that I just move on. The times he wakes up varies from 33-42 minutes. I honestly can't tell if it's OT or UT. In addition, NW have increased. They occur at different times but I do get long NW where he just wants to stay up and cries when I try to resettle. He averages 3-5 NW! I don't always feed; I pat him or let him fuss until he falls asleep again. But I do feed if its been 3 hrs or more since that's how long he typically goes in the daytime. He falls asleep with minimal help. Usually I sing a lullaby as he drifts off; the most I do is shh pat. It used to take him 2-5 minutes to fall asleep; but in the last two weeks it has increased where now it can take at least 15 minutes because all he wants to do is roll and practice trying to crawl. ::)
He dropped the CN weeks ago and is currently teething. I also started solids this week. All in all lots of transitions right now so I need help with tweaking the routine.
Here is the typical EASY:
WU 7:30/8
E
A
S 10/10:30-11:30/noon (mostly broken 36-42 minutes (sometimes wakes up at 33 minutes); sometimes he will sleep until 1:15; rarely to 1.5 these days)
E
A
S 2/2:30-3:30/4 p.m (this one is the more reliable nap where it can be 1:15-1:45; however last two days its been just over an hour; sometimes a quick resettle at around 36-42 minutes into the nap)
E
A 1 tablespoon of solids
E (top up)
S 6:30/7 pm (rarely happens due to time being pushed back from resettling and naps shortened or lengthened after resettling)
Anything that stands out? Or is this something that I just need to accept for the time being.
-
Hi there
It's a bit hard to tell from your EASY just how long the A times are right now. If it's 7.30am-10.30, 3hrs then that ought to be enough to give some good naps really. But if it's 7.30 - 10.00, 2.5hrs then this is perhaps too short for a 6.5 month old.
You said you were running on set naps, how about just shifting the set nap 15 mins later (set naps do change times just not daily, when the A time needs extending you move the set nap time)?
So something like:
WU 7.30
A 2hr 45
S 10.15 - 11.45
A 2hr 45
S 2.30 - 4.00
A 2hr 30
BT 7.30
Looking at your times though, seems your LO might have something like a 37 min sleep cycle which may be giving 2 cycles in that 1hr 15min nap, so you could be looking then at 3 cycles making a close to that 1hr 45 length nap you mentioned. That sounds like a restorative nap, I'd aim for that if you can.
FWIW mine always woke every evening, making noise, stretching noises, grumbling, crying, all sorts of noises in the evening hours. It happened pretty much every night regardless of how great his routine was, there was just no stopping it, he is just a noisy sleeper. Often not settling into a real proper sleep until midnight. Tiring for me but honestly you can try every kind of OT/UT routine change and not stop it if he is just a restless sleeper like mine.
You do have a lot going on right now, you know that, so I'd go for the time tweak but keep expectations low.
I'd suggest moving the solids meal to earlier in the day, an hour after the WU milk or an hour after the mid morning milk is a good time to try solids. LOs tend to be more interested in food earlier in the day but also there is less chance of wind or digestion disturbing sleep if it's earlier in the day (any adverse reactions you have all day to notice and sort out too rather than it being in the night).
hope this helps
-
Hi creations!
Thanks so much for the quick reply...can you hear the confusion in my message? Lol
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. He is currently doing 2.5 A for the first two A times then 3 hours to BT. We have been at this for about 2.5 weeks. So I may need to tweak the A time for a longer nap. To clarify are you suggesting to aim for 1:45 nap or a 1:15 nap. I agree one sleep cycle seems to be at the 36-37 mark. Usually when he overcomes this hump and the 43 minute hump I know he's going for the full nap.
Looking at the sample routine you posted, you lengthened both A times to 2.75 then shortened last A to 2.5. Is that correct? Or is it 3.5 A before a 7:30 BT? Should I shorten/lengthen the last A to BT?
Thank you for sharing your experience. It actually helps to hear I'm not the only one and it's not something that I am necessarily doing or not doing. I can definitely try the tweak and see if that improves things. I can also try to feed solids earlier and see if that improves the situation.
-
Bit short on time right now but will try to answer:
So I may need to tweak the A time for a longer nap. To clarify are you suggesting to aim for 1:45 nap or a 1:15 nap.
I'd increase to 2hrs 45 for first A and see how it goes, also second A if it works out well.
Yes I'd aim for longer than 1.5hrs so goign by the sleep cycles it might end up 1hr 45 rather than 1.5 or 2hrs which is more common.
you lengthened both A times to 2.75 then shortened last A to 2.5. Is that correct? Or is it 3.5 A before a 7:30 BT? Should I shorten/lengthen the last A to BT?
If you know from experience that your baby needs a longer A time to bed then continue to give the longer A time to bed. Other wise it can be the same length as the others or it can be a bit shorter. Sorry that is clear as mud but some like it long, some like it short. The sample is only a guide for you to adjust based on your baby as an individual.
If you have not tried a shorter A time to bed it may be worth a try for a few days - it could actually reduce those early evening night wakes, although mine liked a short A time to bed and still made noise in the evening regardless. If his A to bed was longer though he had terrible trouble so there is a difference between 'just' making noise and there being a problem with OT at BT.
You don't want to drastically change everything if you have found something which works for you but equally the routine looks like it needs a tweak. Hopefully you can find your way using the information and your own experience and knowledge of your LO.
Very cute photo by the way :)
-
Thank you! mY DH took this photo which is one of my favorites of DS.
Thank you so much for the sound advice, I do appreciate it! I can definitely try an increase for the first A and see. I increased today and got a 33 minute nap which is a funny number bc I'm not sure if it's OT or UT. He did wake up fussy. I resettled after almost 15 minutes. At what point do I say ok he may need another increase because 2.75 is still not enough?
Honestly I have no idea if my DS likes a shorter A to bed but I was thinking I would start with 2.5 or 2.75 to bed since 3 hrs A seemed to have caused DS being super hyper and difficult to settle as well as a ENW only 30-40 minutes after BT then an uphill battle of keeping him asleep for the early part of the night.
Like your DS he would finally sleep a longer stretch anywhere between 10:30-11:30.
Yesterday we had short naps all day due to being on the go and ended up doing a shorter A to bed which worked out better; went from 5 to 3; not ideal but definitely better. I did have an EW at around 4:30 that lasted 45 minutes. I tied shh pat but it was not working. Finally, I nursed him since we hit the 3.5 mark from the last feed. Do you think that was OT related?
-
I increased today and got a 33 minute nap which is a funny number bc I'm not sure if it's OT or UT. He did wake up fussy. I resettled after almost 15 minutes. At what point do I say ok he may need another increase because 2.75 is still not enough?
I wouldn't increase again yet. Hold for several days before changing it, he might need time to adjust.
-
Ok that definitely sounds like a plan!
Would you recommend keeping the rest of the routine as is; in particular the A before BT?
-
Hi!
I wanted to give you an update:
Today I did the first A of 2.75 again and got a full 1.5 hr nap!! NO RESETTLING!! The second one was a bit UT but that's because I didn't do a 2.75 A so I will try that again tomorrow. Also I think the tweaking is starting to help NW. Last night he woke 30 minutes after BT(which was 7 p.m.) which hopefully will get resolved soon; BUT after resettling he didn't wake up until around 11 for a feed and then 5 am for a feed...BIG improvement from the last couple of weeks. ;D
You mentioned I should aim for 1.75 hr naps due to his sleep cycle length so does that mean I will probably have to increase A again in a couple of days? Or should I just stick to the current new A?
Thank you again!!!
-
Great update :)
It's not vital to get a 1hr 45 min nap that was just a guess really, 1hr 30 is fine if LO seems fine. If mood seems off then you might look for a tweak.
I wouldn't increase A time to bed at this point unless there is BT resistance.
You might need to increase A time in a couple of days anyway, this often happens, it is increased get a long nap then the nap goes short again and A needs another little increase, it's just LO adapting to the new time. Each increase remember to hold it there a few days and to observe the nap length and LOs mood.
As you've seen the first nap lengthen it's a good time to increase second A time just as you have said :)
Great!
-
Thank you so much for the advice! I am definitely seeing improvements in the morning nap. Although today he woke up after just over an hour. He wasn't crying but was fussy. He kept trying to self settle but maybe not tired enough? This is day 3 of trying out 2.75 A in the am. Should I stick with it for another day or increase again by 15 minutes tomorrow?
Maybe because last night wasn't so great. :-\ I think it was a UT/OT situation. He was waking every 2 hours! Yesterday's routine is as followed:
WU 8:30
A 2.75
S 10:45-12:15
A 2:38
S 3:26-5pm (woke at 47 minutes but I was so determined for no CN (they never fair very well) that I resettled with APOP it did take upwards of 15 minutes to do so)
A 3:10
S 8:10 pm (would NOT settle; took around 20 minutes after putting him down at 2:50A; I think I have to decrease this A overall (currently at 3 hours) since I got another NW after 30 minutes)
From there it was 5 NW! He would not stay asleep. I should note that he slept 12.5 hours the night before. Perhaps too much sleep overnight or day sleep? Or something else? What do you think?
I'm hoping tonight won't be a repeat. I'm tired! I know he's capable of sleeping longer stretches bc he did it the night before.
-
WU 8:30
A 2.75
S 10:45-12:15
Is this correct? 8.30 to 10.45 is 2hr 15 A time ??
Increasing the second A time may help with the first nap so I would increase second A time first.
If first nap continues to be short then yes increase again.
I would go for an earlier BT. It's ok to do it quite a bit earlier if the naps have not been great, I know it's hard to reach the end of the day when naps have been short.
-
Sorry! I meant 11:15-12:45; I forgot he woke a half hour later that day; but yes 2.75 A.
I tried 2.75 A for the second but he fell asleep much faster that usual which meant a 2:40 A. He woke up after 47 minutes fussy but I resettled within 10 minutes. Does 5 minutes make s difference? Tomorrow I'll aim again for second A at 2.75? Or should I increase first A, second A, or both to 3 hrs A?
I feel like he's rapidly changing A times and I can't keep up!
I'm going to try a 2.75 A before BT and hope for the best!
-
As you've only just increased the second A time I wouldn't increase it again to 3hrs just yet, hold a few days on 2hr 45.
Increasing second A time might have the effect of helping to extend nap 1 but over a few days not immediately. If you want to wait a few days to see then you can, if you feel increasing first A time is needed then go ahead tomorrow as he has already had a couple of days on the 2hr 45 on that A time.
Don't forget, this is just guidance based on the info you give, you are the one there with him, it's ok to listen to your gut too :)
A times can increase rapidly. Then they seem to settle again. You'll soon be back in a routine which feels more predictable.
-
Thank you! I'm hopeful we will get the routine sorted :)
I do appreciate your guidance. It helps having a more seasoned perspective on things. I'm a FTM and new to BW so I'm constantly second guessing myself. I'm going to give the first A one more day of 2.75 then increase if I need to and maintain second A at 2.75 for a couple more days. The last A ill try for 2.75 and see if that helps. I think 3 hr A before bed has not worked for weeks so cutting back may help.
I was wondering on the days with one bad nap, do I have to do a CN? What about two bad naps? I never quite got his A after a CN right so I shudder when I think of offering one again.
Thank you again!!
-
It helps having a more seasoned perspective on things. I'm a FTM and new to BW so I'm constantly second guessing myself.
I was exactly the same :) ...still am!
If you have 2 bad naps you can try for a CN but some LOs won't take one or (if it makes you shudder) you might not want to offer one because you know it wont' be well received. If you try for one and it's refused I'd say your best bet is to move directly on to the BT routine. So feed wash/bath, pjs and into bed for the night. This might be 2 hrs earlier than usual BT, it can seem a bit scary but generally it turns out ok and gives LO a chance to catch up on some of that lost day sleep. It can be hard to fit in the BT routine after a failed CN so you just get through it fast as you can without panicking.
good luck for today
-
Thank you!
Well something is going on because again he was up every two hours almost to the tee. He is 28 weeks old today. Is there some sort of growth spurt or a developmental thing happening? Teething? He won't calm down until I nurse and he takes full feeds. I'm so confused. It just happened two days ago. Beforehand he was waking up more like every 3-4 hours.
I don't know what to make of it.
-
Sounds like a growth spurt. Likely he'll go back to normal feeds in a few days.
-
Hmmmm that's interesting I thought we already went through that but perhaps we didn't.
Ok I will plow on. I forgot to set the alarm so we are having a late start to the day.
-
It does sound like a GS to me but if you feel unsure about the full feeds when he won't calm down perhaps post on the BF board about this specifically? Sorry I'm not great when it comes to BF advice.
-
Thanks Creations!
I think I will; funny thing is I posted about it couple of weeks ago and it was determined that it was a growth spurt because it lasted a few days. I will see what the ladies think on that board :)
-
So today I put him down aiming for a first A 2.75. Well it took him about 12 minutes to settle but he was fighting if and basically cried himself to sleep after I patted and sung. Usually (when he's not fighting sleep) it takes about 5-7 minutes to settle. Needless to say he finally went down at about 2:50 A but was still fidgety for about 5 or so minutes where I had to pat him again His A was pretty much 3 hrs. He ended up waking up after 30 minutes where I had to APOP because he would not settle. Maybe OT? Or maybe he was UT going down?
Then the second nap he cried for 10 minutes before falling asleep at 2.75A. It was horrible. He woke up at 34 minutes crying. Was this OT? Maybe he needs a long first A then 2.5 second A?
He never use to cry like this even when extending A. Maybe I'm pushing too much?
I forgot to mention that yesterday when DS took his am nap after 2.75 A and woke up at 1:05 into it. My question is if I was able to settle (APOP) and he slept for another 30 minutes; was it him adjusting to A or was is UT and I made it worse by putting him back to sleep. He woke up fussy but not crying where I mentioned he was trying not to self settle but got so frustrated.
I'm sorry I have all these questions, I just don't want to push too hard because I'm thinking he's UT and really it's OT yk?
-
I don't think you're pushing too hard. I'd go with the 3hr first A tomorrow with the 2hr 45 second A. Help him resettle any nap if needed and try not to worry too much. When routines change things do go a bit weird, it happens, things are going to settle down again. Los can sometimes appear OT when an A time is increased because they are used to having a nap at a certain time and are in this habit, it doesn't mean it is the best time for them it's just a time of adjustment.
A reminder of A times
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
You are right in the middle of the guidance times for 6.5 to 7 months and your LO is this age so you are spot on the guidance now. your LO might even need longer, hard to tell just yet.
Mine would have been on 3.5hr first A time by 7 months I think.
-
Oh wow! Yes I just looked at the link you sent me and it's true he is right in the middle. It does make sense wrt DS being accustomed to a certain A. I have been playing around with 2.5-2.45 A since he was around 5 months or so. I guess I am just being a big softy!
I will do what you have suggested for a couple of days and see if things improve.
I do wonder about the A to bed. I had him on 3 hrs to bed for a couple of weeks when I dropped the CN. What A do you think is a good starting point based on everything atm?
I was thinking 2.5 before BT?
-
I was thinking 2.5 before BT?
Yes I'd try this. The thing with trying a short A to bed is that you might avoid any OT NWs. If there is huge resistance at BT then you can always increase a little again. I'd go with 2.5hr and stay there for a while.
As for being a softy - very many parents are so scared of OT and hesitant to increase the A times, you are not alone. IME UT is just as bad if not worse than OT. Tracy said to keep LO up for their full A time you are to do a fan dance if necessary, anything to keep baby awake until nap time. This is for getting onto a new routine, obviously we also look for LO's mood, sleep length, cues, communication etc etc too and adapt times if LO is poorly, had a super stimulating day and so on...but the fan dance is sometimes necessary for changing up those A times.
-
Thank you for the sound advice. I usually do a dance with him or walk around a lot with him in my arms to lengthen A time.
I tried the 2.5 A to bed. Good news no resistance which is great! However, still got a ENW 30 minutes after BT. I also got an hour long EW from 5-6 where he just wanted to play and roll around. I left him to it despite my efforts to calm him. He eventually put himself to sleep. I'm wondering if this is all because he is adjusting to new A so its OT or it's still not enough A so it was UT. I still got 4 NW but I'm seeing a slight improvement there which indicates I'm on the right track.
I agree UT is worse for me than OT. It's easier to resettle and to know that you won't get long NW as a result of UT
-
Update: today I did a 3hr A before am nap; he slept for 1:24 with a slight resettling at 34 minutes which is good. However, I did an A of 2:45 for the pm nap and he woke up at 37 minutes. He was cranky and got annoyed when I tried to resettle but he resettled quickly(APOP). This is day 1 on 3 hour a and day 2 of 2:45 A. I'll still do a 2.5 A before bed and hopefully we won't get cot parties tonight. Ahhhh le sigh
Do you think I need an increase of the second and/or first A?
Also, if a nap is running to late in the day and it could push BT very late (past 8), is DS too young for a nap being capped? Say the pm nap? He slept for 1:45 and didn't want to go to bed! He getting into crawl stance and rolling all around in the crib for more than an hour. Tonight BT was supposed to be 8 pm but he stretched himself to almost 9!!! I had to rock bc he was crying when I dared to try to put him to sleep with patting. I walked out twice and he just played and babbled. Then he started crying hysterically. I couldn't take it anymore so I rocked him. Ugh I haven't done this in awhile. I'm rocking him as I type. Maybe BT is too late? I aimed for 2.5 and got over 3 hours A.
What can this be?
When he rolls around and doesn't want to settle does that mean he's not tired enough? But then last night a 2.5 A to BT made him have OT ENW and tonight he seemed UT then got OT. Ahhhh I'm confused!
-
Oh I'm so it's all so confusing and frustrating. Try not to think too much about it, there are so so many things which disturb sleep that many times we don't fully know what the exact thing was or which combination. Learning to roll and pulling into a crawl position is a huge developmental leap and IME developments always lead to sleep disturbance, it's just something that happens when LO are growing and we can't stop it all we can do is help them the best we can, not worry too much about AP/props and roll with it until they come out the other side. You are not alone in going through this tricky phase I promise you, we all have these tricky phases xx
I would hold on those A times one more day then possibly increase the second A to 3hrs. Some people do find the need to cap a nap, I know it seems unthinkable to try so hard for weeks to make baby sleep and then the wake him up! Others find it more suitable to let the night go a little later/shorter. I would continue as you are for now.
WU
A 3hr
S
A 2hr 45
S
A 2hr 30
BT
Those early evening night wakes, if nothing helps them it is a case of accepting this is how he is. For lots there is a solution by resolving the day time routine, having the right length nap and the right length A time before bed etc...but I know for sure with mine he settled on a good routine, was sleeping well, good mood and all that and yet still had noisy early evening NWs basically every night. He still frequently makes noise in the early part of the night and is almost 5yo but these days it is no way as hard as when he had them as a baby, he dreams a lot in that part of the night and processes all his day time experiences and developments, it just disturbs him and no amount of routine tweaking makes any difference.
Have a good day x
-
Thank you creations for the reassurance! It gets hard sometimes. He's such a happy, active, and alert baby which I am so so thankful for. The only thing that worries me is the sleep. As you said, I can only do my best and from there go with it since babies as I'm finding out always have something going on with them! I'm sure it doesn't help my little guy that he is teething.
I will try the new routine for another day and see what happens. Then I increase second A to 3 hrs correct and hold for 4 days?
Two questions:
1. For the past two days the am nap has been about 1:20 minutes on a 3hr A. Is that still considered an UT nap? I resettled both times in crib at the 39 minute mark . I can definitely wait to see what happens if I lengthen the second A do 3 hours to see if am nap lengthens if I need to.
2. Should I then cap my pm nap to 1.5 or leave it and see if he gets tired after a 2.5 A to bed?
I do appreciate it! As you said it could be my DS is like your DS...I suppose we will see!
Xx
-
1. For the past two days the am nap has been about 1:20 minutes on a 3hr A. Is that still considered an UT nap? I resettled both times in crib at the 39 minute mark . I can definitely wait to see what happens if I lengthen the second A do 3 hours to see if am nap lengthens if I need to.
Personally I'd look for a third sleep cycle to get to 2hrs, that's what mine did. You might decide that 1hr 20 is enough for him but usually we recommend 1hr 30 or over for restorative sleep.
Adding 5 or 10 mins on to the first A time could give him the extra bit of tiredness to get him through that transition - see what you think of his mood before and after nap to judge if you can add more or not.
2. Should I then cap my pm nap to 1.5 or leave it and see if he gets tired after a 2.5 A to bed?
I'd leave the nap uncapped for now and see what happens at BT for a week or so.
You're doing great.
-
Thank you! Ok I can definitely experiment and see. Yesterday he did 3:05 unintentionally and today just under 3hrs A. Both days I got a 1:20ish day. The thing is that I have had to literally hold him down to get him to fall asleep because all he wants to do is roll around and practice crawling then gets agitated and cries when I hold him down while conducting shh pat ::) so not sure what to make of his mood beforehand. Either he's just not tired enough or is too busy trying out skills that he rather not sleep to practice.
He wakes up fine after the first nap and fussy after the pm nap. I'll observe tomorrow and see if maybe adding 5-10 on the first A may help.
I had to APOP bedtime bc his bath ran over and we went over 2.5 A. Didn't want to fight him to sleep knowing he's already OT. We will see what tonight looks like.
Can teething cause long night wakings? We have had long NW including one tonight where he cries hysterically or he wants to play and then cries. Ok not sure of this is accumulated OT or if it's the teething. He has sore swollen gums but not cutting yet. Poor baby has been teething for a while but it seems it's progressively getting worse. We medicate but it seems to do next to nothing which is why I wonder if it's also OT.
-
My guess would be the NWs are teething and/or the crawling/rolling development, either can disturb sleep to a point you just can't believe is possible and then suddenly pass after the phase is over. At this point I wouldn't change the day sleep routine because of the NWs because it isn't strongly indicating that it's day sleep which is the problem.
For teething, it's possible to use both ibuprofen and paracetamol for the worst nights, check with your health car provider if you feel unsure, never go over the dose, you can space them out so that there is continued pain relief.
Don't be too afraid of APOP, these are tricky times, he'll go back to independent sleep quite easily after.
I would try a W2S to help him through at 1hr 15 ish into the next cycle if you have the time/energy to have a go.
-
Thank you creations! I guess I have a fear that I will have to start from scratch. Bedford the phase he was able to fall asleep on his own with a lullaby. Sometimes with shh pat if he was more wound up but would go to sleep in under 5 minutes. He was sleeping longer stretches etc. I guess I just have to remember that he's not 100% and needs me more which I am fine with. I guess it's nice to have the reassurance that it's ok to help him fall asleep if he's having a lot of difficulties.
So you mentioned not changing the routine for now until things settle with the teething and his developmental phase. Right now I'm at:
W 8 am
A 3hrs
S 11-12:30 roughly
A 2.75
S3:15-4:45 pm
A 2.5
BT 7:15 pm
So I should increase second A if I continue to get broken naps? Today I got a good am nap (1.5) without wake ups at about 3:05 A (which he pushed himself) the rest of the day was shot due to errands. But I did opt for an earlier bedtime so we will see how the night goes.
How does W2S work?
Update: Also I have a question regarding handling EBT after a 15 minute nap. Today I was out as I mentioned before and poor DS only for a 15 nap for his afternoon nap. I had him in the carrier and I guess too much noise didn't allow him to nap well at all as he was much more interested in his surroundings. Unfortunately his A was also over 3 hours which I'm sure contributed to the practically nonexistent nap. By the time I came home and for him ready for bed. It was 2:05A when he finally drifted off. Needless to say tons of NW (5-6) and a very long one (1.5hr) of straight crying and being wired. I knew it would be a rough night; however, I was wondering in general when a situation happens is it ok to to an EBT despite not fitting in regular feeds and day shortened to 10hr. What can I do in these type of situations? Roughly what A would have been more appropriate after a 15 minute nap. I'm just wondering for next time (because I'm sure there will be a next time) what I can do differently.
Thank you!
-
So I should increase second A if I continue to get broken naps?
Yes. And if he appears to want a slightly longer first A time that's fine too :)
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Look at naps option 1 (but you can also read the full thing, might give more idea). Basically you just get into the room before he fully wakes and calls for help, you pre-empt the need for help and go in say 5-10 mins before and begin or be ready to begin shush/pat or whatever you usually do to help him stay asleep through the transition. The timing on the FAQ might not be right for you, as I say go in 5-10 mins before he needs you.
I was wondering in general when a situation happens is it ok to to an EBT despite not fitting in regular feeds and day shortened to 10hr. What can I do in these type of situations?
Honestly you can only do what you can do. Probably the best advice I can give is to expect a rough night of it at least then you are 'ready' and not surprised. Some LOs (esp as they get a bit older) seem to think they've done a full nap when they only had a little micro-nap of a few mins, they need almost a full A time until they will sleep again even though they don't have the energy for it. With a failed/short afternoon nap I'd just try to do BT as early as possible to try to avoid too many NWs and then start the next day a fresh. If it's a regular thing then I'd look at routine to try to adapt to the regular disturbance but if it's a one off then I'd just grit my teeth and expect a rough night.
BT can be as early at say 5.30pm, some even do one off BTs earlier than this. It may lead to a slightly earlier morning WU but then you would use the next day to get back on track. The EBT needs to be a one-off really so that LO doesn't get used to EBT and EW. There are certain routine transitions which require EBT as a standard part of the routine but that's a different issue.
-
Ok that makes sense! Today is a wonky day since last night his sleep wasn't the greatest so I already had an OT am nap that I APOP-ed the rest. We will see how the rest of the day goes.
Thank you again!
-
Well he did a 40 minute pm nap after almost 2:55 A (unplanned). We were out so couldn't settle. Normally I don't even go out two days in a row with DS only because I like to have a restful day for him to get back on track when I know he will be OT from short napping during outings. Anyways, I tried cutting back the A to 2:15 and ended up with a 2.5 to bed. I also ended up with another long NW. I know you said the main culprit is teething and developmental leaps aonik trying not to worry.
I have general sleep questions:
1. Does independent sleep go away when using so much APOP to get DS to sleep and stay asleep?- I'm fearful of starting from square one especially since although I wasn't at the point where I could just walk out of the room, DS was at the point where he could put himself to sleep with a lullaby; at worst with minimal patting.
2. What's the average sleep for a 29 week old baby? He's currently doing between 13-14 hrs per day. Usually averaging 14 hours a day.
-
1. Does independent sleep go away when using so much APOP to get DS to sleep and stay asleep?
I really don't think you will lose where you had got to with his ability to self settle. Mine was going to sleep independent very young, about 8 wks old I think (certainly under 10wks). From 3.5 months to 5.5 months we had a series of 40 min naps, horrible, and when we came through the other side he was back to sleeping independently. Similarly other tricky phases such as illness, teething, developmental leaps, I have always given the additional help he needs to be able to sleep and he has always come out the other side still self settling. IME even when things seem really bad they still manage to return to independence either on their own or with minimal 'work' to get there.
2. What's the average sleep for a 29 week old baby?
Here's the link
Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep
Mine never hit those lower end guidance times, always less. I think once in a blue moon he hit 14hrs sleep in 24.
Don't forget the guidance is only guidance, some LOs are going to fall outside those figures.
I'm imagining your LO is quite alert and interested in the world, is that right?
-
Ok that is good to hear. I don't mind using APOP to make sure he gets the sleep he needs, but it is good to hear that I won't have to start from scratch to get him to sleep independently.
In your opinion, should I continue to try to encourage falling asleep independently with shh pat for naps and going down for BT? What I have been doing is APOP early wake ups from naps and NW after BT. I'm finding this week very difficult to do so because he just cries hard while going down. When I pick him up to soothe him he will try to sleep in my arms so when I put him down again he gets hysterical. I try to soothe in the crib and now he falls asleep crying :'(. I don't want to break trust with him but I also am not sure APOP for every nap and BT until his teeth come in is advisable. Especially since he's much more aware and looks like he's in the beginning of SA (according to Wonder Weeks). What do you think?
DS is very alert; never wants to miss anything. I think if it were up to him,he would never sleep no matter how tired he is ::)
-
Do you feel like this is all teeth? Are you medicating before nap time to see if it helps? (prob not all naps, do watch the dose guides)
You are not breaking trust because you are right there with him. If you feel better to pick him up then do so. If his teeth are really really bad he might be better having a nap or two in arms.
Is there a chance he needs a slightly longer A time or a shorter/longer WD perhaps? If he is crying this much at nap time I'd be tempted to put him down 10 mins later to make sure he is tired.
With picking up, you might find it possible to pick up only slightly from the cot, to lift his weight off the mattress bad feel your hands on him but not bring him right up to a holding position. The more tired he gets the more you can aim for this (ie start with a full pick up and cuddle). I found this helped my DS once, he was literally at the stage of falling to sleep the second I picked up so I only picked up a cm, he fell asleep, put down he woke, picked up he fell asleep a cm from the mattress, put down he woke and cried, put my hands under/on him and made sure he felt them but without picking up and he was so exhausted he just nodded off. It's tricky to describe but perhaps you get the idea and just see if something like that will help along the way with your own methods when you are trying to sooth him.
Are you using a key phrase? Key phrase is very helpful for verbal reassurance at this stage if you are not shushing.
-
Hi Creations!
Well I do think a large part is teeth. The other part of me says its SA or the beginnings of it. Hard to tell bc he's super clingy and cranky lately. He's such a happy baby normally but I can tell he's bothered. I use Camila before naps and Tylenol or Motrin for bed when I feel he needs it. He has been biting harder and fussy at the breast. He also has a teething rash which I'm sure doesn't feel comfortable for him.
I continue to soothe him in the crib with the key phrase "it's sleepy time" or sing "twinkle twinkle" since that his the trigger song for sleep. I do like your suggestion in lifting him from the crib a bit but not completely in my arms.
Today he actually wanted to nap 30 minutes earlier! I put him down and he didn't fight at all. No crying or anything just drifted to sleep with a blankie. He woke very briefly at 33 minutes but resettled quickly in the crib. I just shushed him and jiggled a bit. Does this happen with teething? Maybe the broken sleep from the last couple of nights? He did have multiple wakings including a 2 hour one :-\ I knew that was coming though since we had a busy day preparing for the holidays song is naps were primarily on the go. So perhaps he's playing catch up from a day with not so great sleep.
If I don't speak to you sooner, I hope you and your family have a wonderful holiday!!
-
Oh I think that earlier sleep could be teeth or could be, as you said, catch up from the last few days/nights. I wouldn't read too much into it.
merry christmas to you and your family :)
-
Thank you and Merry Christmas!
-
Hope things are going well for you x
-
Hi Creations! I hope you and your family had a wonderful Christmas!
Things are going pretty well. His routine is slowly getting back to where it was before Christmas but that's to be expected. He's a textbook baby so when he goes off the routine things are very wonky for a couple of days to a week.
He's also finally cutting his teeth!!! Yay!!! There are tiny little buds so it's definitely the teething keeping him up at night and I think contributing to the broken naps so I haven't changed anything in A time. I'm still aiming for:
WU
A 3 hrs
S
A 2.75
S
A 2.5
BT
It hasn't been the easiest; poor DS is agitated and restless. How long does it take after teeth start cutting through for them to be fully out?
I'm trying my best to make him comfortable and doing what I can to help him sleep. LOADS of APOP! Today's first nap was the first time in days he fell asleep to singing and patting. I figure if I can try for at least one nap and maybe bedtime it won't be so hard getting him back to falling asleep without the props.
-
I can't lie, teething is the WORST in my opinion. I thought the first year was bad with teething until mine his 1yo and then the teething REALLY started. Oh my!
Do you use meds at all? Might help for one of the naps to get him a bit of rest if needed.
x
-
Yikes!!!!! Sounds like I'm in for it :o
It definitely sucks big time!!! He's especially restless at nights and has been having 1-2 long NW of 1-2 hours then an additional NW to feed. We average about 4 NW right now. Doesn't help that he's practicing to crawl. I am trying not to lose it although I am very tired and find myself crying along with him from exhaustion. I just keep telling myself this will pass...
Naps I have been giving Camila which seems to calm him down. He tends to fall asleep pretty easily considering; cries a bit then either falls asleep while I rock him or like today while I pat him. He wakes up mid nap so then I help him resettle so at least he can rest more. Nights I give Motrin or Tylenol. Honestly I feel it does nothing but then again maybe it does but maybe it does and I just don't see it. He cries off and on during the long NW which usually occur in the earlier part of night (latest was 1:30-3 the one night!) then the other NW are brief just to feed.
I'm just hoping the teeth will be out in a couple of days. I'm trying my best to stay with a routine.
-
Oh honey, I'm sorry you are crying along with him, been there, it is exhausting for you and sometimes it's good to let the stress hormones out in your tears. You really will get through this. xxx
It is very hard to tweak times when so much is going on, learning to crawl and teething too, it's all so disruptive. maybe have think about where the naps are mostly broken and think about if an increase to the A's which are under 3hrs might be on the cards? (perhaps not the last one of the day before BT) If he is finding it hard to transition it may be discomfort (teeth) or A time. Maybe try some ibuprofen or paracetamol 20 mins before nap time to see if it helps keep the pain off to get him through the lighter sleep and transition?
...Keep reminding yourself just how well you are doing. You are supporting your baby through his hardest times x
-
Thank you for the reassurance...it is hard but what we are getting through it. I think what you said about doing my best during his hardest time was a great reminder.
He seems to wake up 35-40 minutes during a nap. I usually resettle with APOP. Not sure if I should increase second A since first A is at 3 hours and second A is 2.75 roughly. Bedtime has rarely gone well. I aim for 2.5 but it always ends up being 2.75-3 hr A.
Bedtime is a different story. He doesn't stay asleep (wakes every 30-1 hr) until he finally passes out of exhaustion (I imagine) close to midnight!
Due to the holidays, I spent the last few days helping him catch up on sleep so hopefully tomorrow will be a fresh start back on our routine now that we are home.
-
Yes perhaps try 3hrs on the second A.
Is he fighting BT then or is it just that you can't fit everything in to get him down on time?
Having a LO who always made a lot of noise in the early part of the night I do wonder is sometimes this can't be 'fixed'. Mine was in bed on time and had a short A time before BT but still continued to wake or cry out in his sleep or NW in those first hours. I generally kept myself up until midnight because I was more sympathetic and much more able to handle him if I had not been to sleep. If I slept then was woken I was a grouch and found it very hard indeed. Of course going to bed so late myself, with a 5.30am WU well, I was always tired but I never did find anythign to solve the early evening NWs. My boy dreams a lot in that part of the night, processing the day and his learning, he is also quite bright in some areas which I think some say links to poor sleep or more chance of intense dreaming. This could all be a factor for your LO...or it could just be that he is teething, it's so hard to tell isn't it. xx
-
It is so hard to tell with our little ones when there's so much going on at once!
I think it may be what you mentioned in terms of him still processing what he learned and dreaming in the early part of the night. He has always woken up more in the early part of the evening since 2 months old. He's pretty advanced in development and is bright in many areas. He is also very alert and observant which is why I need a good wind down to even get him to sleep as well as a constant nap and BT routine. I feel as though teething has definitely increased it. Last night he was up every 30 minutes until about 11:30 pm; then slept 3-4 hour chunks. I aim for 2.5 but he fights it and by the time he actually falls asleep it's between 2.75-3 hr A. Only once or twice has it been 2.5 A but then he still woke up. His bedtime has been later these last few days due to the holidays so I know a late BT can also cause OT and more wake ups. I guess it will be a process of elimination.
I can definitely increase the second A to 3 hours and leave A before bed to 2.5? Or should I just do an Increase to 2.75 before bed? Is it possible to have the following:
Wu
A 3hrs
S
A 3hrs
S
A 2.75-3 hrs
BT
Today he only did 30 minutes in the am then I resettled. I think it's teething though as his tooth teeth have cut through and are very slowly growing in.
-
Yes you can try that.
At BT, when he is resistant, what do you feel - does he need a longer WD (so not a longer A but starting the whole process earlier) or does he need a longer A time and less WD?
If nap 1 continues to need help and starts looks like it isn't just teeth, you might increase it again, maybe 5-10 min or maybe 15 mins. He needs to be tired to nap well and sometimes they need to go over the guidance A times.
You're doing well, keep going :)
-
So even with a 30 minute nap for the an nap I should extend past 2 hours bc they continue to be broken?
With BT it's hard to say. He fights BT if I lay him in the crib and start patting. He rolls around and gets into crawl stance then starts getting agitated if I continue trying to put him to sleep. Even rocking him he will push off of me and look around etc. I even have tried nursing but he has only fallen asleep when he has been very tired but it still surpasses 2.5. Last night he did about 2.5 and had a very restless night (waking up every 30-2 1/2 hours) including a long NW. He tossed and turned a whole lot so not sure if his teeth hurt a lot (tried Motrin tonight but seems in affective)
I try to give him a 30 minute windows but perhaps I can try more before extending the A. My husband will try to help but I do think his presence is very stimulating for DS especially when DH starts to play around with him. I can try to remove him from the wind down and see if that helps?
-
So even with a 30 minute nap for the an nap I should extend past 2 hours bc they continue to be broken?
Sorry, not sure what you are asking here. Can you re-phrase it please?
-
Sorry!
I meant to ask: should I extend first A even with an AM nap of 30 minutes? Today it was 28 minutes. His NW are getting worse. They are more often throughout the night and there are still long ones where he is restless and wired. Not sure if it progressively gets worse as the teeth are growing in or is it accumulated OT?
It's worrying me that he isn't resting well. His naps are horrible too waking up between 25-40 minutes before I APOP the rest.
-
My guess is teeth, I would suggest not to increase the A but to help him with W2S or APOP as necessary to help him get some sleep. He may well get OT with teething pain but tr not to worry too much, it isn't going to harm him to have a spell of poor sleep.
Teething is horrible :(
-
Happy new Year!!!!
Ok so I think I'm going to continue to aim for the following since teeth are growing in and I can't tell if routine needs tweaking:
WU
A 3hrs
S
A 3hrs
S
A 2.5
BT
I tried 2.75 tonight and he was wired rolling around but rubbing his eyes constantly. He would literally shake off the tiredness lol ::)
Today was an ok nap day. On the plus side his teeth grew more so I'm hoping within a week it will all be over and we can all get some rest. At what point do they stop feeling pain from the teeth generally?
Is it ok that I'm medicating every night? I'm scared it's going to be harmful. I'm also wondering when to start retraining in independent sleep?
So we are still in the process of helping him stay asleep. He has been this far (it's almost 2 am), waking up every 20-45 minutes wide awake unless we are holding him while he sleeps and even then every 45 minutes he moves around. He only fusses and cries if we try to put him back to sleep. Could this still be the teething? Or could this also be routine related? Maybe he's in a UT/OT loop? He also fought bedtime but I managed to finally get him asleep after 3 hrs A. I feel like he was wired though and fidgety. Or maybe I need to shorten A times a bit since he's teething?
-
What you describe certainly could be teething, we had some really rough nights here. I also felt like I was medicating all the time.
Unless you really feel the routine is not working for him I'd hold on a few more days and see what comes out at the end of that. I understand the thought of reducing A times to help if he is in pain, if you did decide to try it see if you get a better nap, if not I would return to what you are currently doing. Thing is if he needs more sleep he can take it in his nap, it's not like you are waking him all the time so he does have a chance to sleep longer if that's what he wants.
Here teething just seemed to go on and on but for sure there were 3 or 4 days when it was even worse then it would ease up again.
-
ok that oddly makes me feel better since it was starting to feel like I needed to change the routine. I tried a shorter A in the am and it made no difference haha still a 1:10-1:15 nap with a resettling at the 33 minute mark. I think you're right and its the discomfort. They are slowly pushing through so it would make sense that it would cause such rough nights. Last night it was 1-2 hours of NW but very restless sleep for half the night then 2-3 hour chunks in the early morning; probably just due to exhaustion...poor baby.
So I tried a 2.5 A and ended up with a shortened nap so the plan is next A I'll go for 2.5-2.75 A then a 2.5 A to bed...hopefully it works out. Tomorrow I'll go back to the two first A times of 3 hrs then 2.5 to BT.
Hopefully this passes soon...you were right teething is absolutely awful!
-
Have you tried some pain meds just before nap time? I know you are unlikely to be able to use for each nap due to the timing and limits and needing to keep a dose or two for the night but it might be worth one trial.
hugs
-
I have done homeopathic before naps but not anything else. I might give it a try.
-
Hi creations:
I have a quick question: if I want to get back to the regular A times do I just go ahead and do it or do I have to build back up to the A times. I tried shortened A times for the last two days with ok results except for two nights of 1.5-2.5 NW which I'm thinking the shortened A times had something to do with that... so I want to back to:
WU
A 3 hrs
S
A 3 hrs
S
A 2.5
S
It was a horrid crudest for 2.5 hours last night which partly was teething but I also think he may not have had enough A during the day resulting in a UT/OT situation.
-
Well, in the BW books Tracy shifted A times quite dramatically, here we usually increase in smaller increments of say 15 mins every few days but if you reduced to say 2hr 30 or 2hr 45 I wouldn't see a problem with moving directly to 3hr.
I will say though, if teeth are coming it can certainly be the cause of that long NW. Was he crying or playing in the night?
-
I have to get her second book BW Solves All Your Problems!
Ok I can start that tomorrow. Today I did a first A of almost 2:50 and got a broken nap sigh and a second A of 2:45 with another OT broken nap. Of course it could be the bajillion NW last night and a long 2.5 NW smh.
The last two nights he will go back and forth between playing and crying. He would cry a ton when I tried to put him back to sleep as he was wired!!! I wonder if maybe the position was making his gums hurt as I once read that horizontal or lying down makes teething worse for them. I don't know. I even tried nursing as a last resort but he was biting too hard. Finally he passed out crying in my arms as I walked around. I gave him Motrin and Camila together before bedtime but I guess it's just not enough. His two bottom teeth are poking through the gums but they aren't fully in yet. I thought once they broke guns it gets better? Maybe that's wishful thinking ::)
I'm just desperately seeking a light at the end of a very long and exhausting tunnel.
-
sorry to hear things are rough right now.
I wonder if maybe the position was making his gums hurt as I once read that horizontal or lying down makes teething worse for them. I don't know
Yes, it can help to elevate the sleeping area, if you have a cot safe wedge for instance or cot blocks.
I thought once they broke guns it gets better?
There can be pain before the teeth cut and after, they are still moving after all. It's awful, I know. Hang in there. Every tooth through is a one less to come.
-
Yes very true!! I will do a dance when these teeth finally come through!!
Anyways, I'm sticking to the 3 hr first 2 A times and hopefully a 2.5 A to bed (hasn't worked yet). Today naps were better but he still woke up midway but much easier to resettle. Fingers crossed for bedtime!
General question: Do you ever increase A while LO teeth like this? Also do you think (given the information I gave you) set naps would be beneficial for him? I have seen several type of routines but this seems to be the most common:
WU 7-7:30
S 9:30-11
S 1:30 (or 2:30)-3/4
BT 7-8 (basically 4 hour A to bed I think)
Sounds crazy but some have had success but I'm not sure if I should go there...Or is it better again based on the info I have given:
WU 7
S 10-11:30
S 2:30-4
BT 6:30-7 pm
The last A is a huge mystery. Im gearing up to get him on some routine since it feels like it's all over the place trying to read cues etc. he's also had a lot NW this week (teething and constipation :-X) which has pushed the routine forward to the point where his BT is 8.30 and we are in a vicious OT cycle.
-
I can't imagine giving such a young LO a 4hr A to bed. Sorry can't advise on that. Maybe a new thread if you wanted to get some feedback from others who had tried it?
Do you ever increase A while LO teeth like this?
It would always be nicer and easier if things could come along one thing at a time, but with babies that just doesn't seem to happen, so whilst it's easier to work out routines if they are not ill, not teething and not going through a developmental leap, sometimes you do have to just go ahead and try a tweak.
If you feel there would be benefit to trying a longer A then by all means try it, remember you have your own instinct and you are the one observing daily, I'm only looking at words on a screen.
xx
-
Very true...
I don't think he needs an increase from 3 hours yet...I guess I was wondering how one can even tell the difference between say teething and routine tweak. It all seems to blur together! My concern is how I can even tell the difference in NW and now EW.
I guess I'll know more when I get him on an earlier routine. Right now he's almost at a 8:30-8:30 routine and I'm sure that's just not working out for him!
-
I wanted to ask for some guidance on my EASY...
Is it possible that with him cutting teeth, his naps get shorter and shorter? Now he's waking up at 27 minutes! He also seems clumsier....maybe from the discomfort? I feel like he's so OT and I don't know how to stay on top of it. He wakes about 4 times still ( with one long one) and is getting less overall night sleep. He used to average 11; now it's 10 about but very broken. I can't give him meds bc I feel I have doing it for weeks straight and scared I'm damaging him. He also seems constipated and I think it's the Motrin.
Any advice?
-
Looking back it seems to be about a week ago you reduced the A time to see if that would help (when you were asking about increasing back to 3hrs) so whilst it does seem from what you're saying that he is acting tired and OT (clumsier and the 27 min naps) I would be less inclined to suggest a shorter A simply because you've quite recently tried it.
How about increasing the first A time to 3hr 15 and seeing how that goes? I remember a time my LO was doing something similar to this, short naps and seeming tired all the time, and one poster suggested UT rather than OT.
Can you switch pain meds to children's paracetamol. I've just looked up Motrin which is ibuprofen, it could be giving tummy ache. I'd give a dose of paracetamol about 20 min before nap and the longer A time for first nap then (if he's been doing 27 mins) prepare to W2S, get in there at 20 mins and either put a hand on or ready yourself very close by, resettle before the full wake up. This would hopefully help him get a good first nap and overall feel better.
Can you record your EAS times for this and post them please?
It may also be that he's getting too long in the night if his overall night time is 12 hrs (8.30-8.30) and we could look at reducing how long he is given at night, ie a shorter night but all/more sleep.
-
Hi Creations!
Thank you for responding. Obviously my DS is definitely keeping me on my toes!
So I think your suggestions sound great. I'm assuming children's paracetamol is the same as children's Tylenol? I actually researched Infant Motrin and it seems as you say cause stomach issues including constipation. My poor DS has had constipation this week where we had to use a suppository to clean him out. I suspected the Motrin since for solids I have been sticking to foods that supposedly aid digestion such as oatmeal, pears, prunes etc. I didn't give him any medication last night and he slept slightly better but was still rather restless. I am wondering if maybe it's not only the teething but him being UT which is causing some of the nap and ultimately sleep issues.
Here is a picture of what has been happening. I did shorten yesterday as I tried to catch him up on sleep but the end result was the same. ::)
Thursday
NW 9:30, 10:37-11:27, 2:55, 5:07 am
Total ~10.25 hrs
WU: 8:57 am
E 9:08 am
A
E 10:45 (oatmeal/pear)
A
S 11:55- 1:38 pm (A 2:58; humming with minimal patting; took 8 minutes to settle( woke up at 38 minutes crying); fell asleep in my arms. Put him on the bed to finish nap.)
E 1:45 pm
A
E 4:07 pm
A
S 4:37- 6:06 pm(A 2:58; took 20 minutes to settle; no crying; was not tired. Shh pat)
E 6:30 (oatmeal/pear)
A
E 8:19 pm
S 8:56 (A 2:50; tried for 2.5 he would not settle had to rock him; too wired)
Yesterday
NW 9:22-10:42, 11:51, 2:37, 5:33
Total~10.25
WU 8:18 am
E 8:43 am
A
E 10 am (oatmeal/pear)
A
S 10:56- 12:53 pm (A 2:39; self settle with my arm next to him)
E
A
E 2:45 (prunes/ oatmeal)
A
S 3:40-5:08 pm (A 2:47; sung and pat; fought sleep; woke up fussy at 36)
E
A
E
S 7:58 pm (A 2:50; rocked; no time for wind down due to suppository inserted)
Today Thus Far:
NW: 9:15-10:54, 1:52, 3:59
Total ~10 hrs
WU 8:13 am
E 8:16
A
E 10am (prunes/oatmeal)
A
S 11:28-still sleeping (A 3:15; patted; wired but probably because not a good wind down with DH in the room. He gets hyper when dad is around. Woke up at 29 minutes; wide awake took me 10 minutes of rocking)
He's getting less night sleep despite the long night. He used to average 11 hours just last week. I would love it if we can somehow shorten the night but have more quality night sleep :)
-
S 10:56- 12:53 pm (A 2:39; self settle with my arm next to him)
Was this an unbroken nap yesterday after the 2hr 39 A time? any resettling needed? Just wondering if you were right about the shorter A time. Sorry I know that's contradicting what I said earlier but I was surprised to see this great nap here.
-
Sorry yes he woke up crying at 27 minutes so I'm like ok is it UT, OT, discomfort? It was the shortest he's ever stayed asleep for a nap. Today after a 3:15 A he woke up at 29 minutes (which is expected since it's a jump in A) but after resettling in my arms he slept for 2 hours!
So here in lies my continuous confusion.
-
OK perhaps try a couple more days at 3hr 15 then.
Looking at the NW the 9.15/30 ish one seems habitual, do you agree? Just he woke at roughly that time with a 9pm BT and also with an 8pm BT. What do you do in that 1hr+ NW?
-
I can definitely try 3:15 A before the am nap...now if he had a terrible night (10hrs of sleep or less), do I still go for 3:15 first A? Also, for the second A should I stick to 3 hrs? Or cut it back to 2.45?
For the last A I can try 2.5 A. Currently it never really works out. He is so awake wanting to play and roll until he starts getting agitated and cries because I don't take him out. Not sure if now that I'm pushing the first A it will make him tired enough for bed so we shall see.
As for the long NW. I thought about it being habitual. No matter what he will wake 30-1.5 hours after BT. Usually I let my husband take over while I get a break then eventually go back in and rock him bc he's crying hysterically by then. If it's been more than 3 hours since his last feed, I'll nurse but it doesn't usually put him right back sleep. So not sure what that's about.
-
Bit of a guess really but I think I'd try
WU
A 3hr 15
S
A 3
S
A 2hr 45 - 3hr
BT
I know we've been looking to keep that last A time shorter but as the NWs haven't changed perhaps we've gone the wrong way??
Sorry I know it would be more useful for you if I just had the right answer, I'm just thinking back to when mine was little and most posters thought OT, only 1 thought UT and turned out to be right...sometimes it is hard to work out which it is.
if he had a terrible night (10hrs of sleep or less), do I still go for 3:15 first A?
If this is routine based disturbance then yes, stick to it. I know teething has been, maybe still is on the cards too, just to add to the confusion.
-
Yes I can definitely give the suggested A times a go today. Yesterday was out the window because we did a family day trip day so his sleep was all over the play then he woke every 1-3 hours last night. I expected it since he was very OT by BT.
Anyways, is 10 hours night sleep too little for a 7 month old? To me it seems low especially since he used to do 11-11.5 hours not including NW. Am I just being unrealistic to expect the same now or do their night sleep needs dwindle this early? Even when given the opportunity to sleep in he won't and it seems to average out around 10 hours. Or is this accumulated OT?
-
Update: DS does not want to nap!!! He was still wide awake after 3:20 A. He was rolling, talking to himself, and trying to move all over the crib. I aimed for a 3 hr A but he's been in that crib since 2.75A. He wasn't crying just doing what I mentioned. I just say there then when he dissed a bit I patted him easily to sleep. He had all the tired signs at 2.5 but I figure let me stretch it since I can't rely on cues. Could it be OT? He did a 2 hour am nap (resettled at 32 minutes) so could he be UT?
This is frustrating. I just want my baby who would just roll over and sleep when it was time :'( I feel like I can't read my baby.
-
Oh dear. I know it's frustrating but I think we've all had times when we've felt we can't read out baby any more. I know I have.
I would aim for 3hr 15 and not begin the wind down too early.
He likely has a lot of developmental stuff going on too. They never help us by just doing one thing at a time these LOs!
-
Lol you are so right! It's always 20 things going on.
I can aim for 3:15 A for both as he pushed his own second A again.
Im assuming I am aiming for
WU
A 3.25
S
A 3.25
S
A 2.5-2.75?
S
He learned to sit up on his own from crawling position when he was supposed to be sleeping smh so he ended up hitting his head on the crib. I had to help him go to sleep since he was headed towards a 3.5 A. ::)
So is a half hour wind down too much then? I used to do 20 minutes but thought maybe he needed more but I could be wrong since he's so active fighting his sleep in the crib.
Also at what point do I start capping naps? I'm noticing the last two days that my am nap (once resettled) has gone over 1.5 which is great but I have had to cap the pm at an hour because bedtime would have been really late.
-
How are things now?
-
Hi creations!
Well the no more long NW! Still at 3-4 however teeth are still growing in so could be that. I would say they are about 1/3 out. Slowly growing ::)
Naps are a different story. I know he can transition because he used to do it all the time but he wakes up between 35-39 minutes into the nap fussy. This is what has happened:
NW 9:46, 12:17, 3:56, 7:20
Total ~10.25
WU 8:32 am
E 8:35 am
A
E 10 am (solids and BM)
A
S 11:45- 1:11 pm (A 3:13; self settle; about 7-10 minutes; woke up at 26 minutes;unclear if UT or OT bc dozed off a bit between 8:30-9 am )
E 1:34 pm
A
E 3:15 pm
A
S 4:16- 5:41 pm(A 3:05; self settle; woke up at 38 fussy)
E 5:50 pm
A
E 8:32 pm
S 8:41 pm (A 3 hrs; nursed)
Today:
NW 11:02, 3:17, 6, 7:10 am
Total ~11.5
WU 8:55 am
E
A
E 11 am
A
S 12:07-1:27 pm (A 3:12; self settle; woke up at 38 crying)
E 1:35
A
E 3 pm (solids)
A
S 4:32- 5:40 (A 3:02 (shortened since last nap was about 1:20; extra fussy shh patted; woke up at 35 fussy; woke him up to preserve a decent BT
Some nights he has gotten 10 hrs and some nights around 11. Do A times change because of the different hours of total night sleep?
I'm still giving him some homeopathic stuff before naps but I'm not even sure if its that or A times need tweaking.
So overall some successes and some room for improvement ;D
-
Have you tried some paracetamol before a nap? I would be tempted to try it once or twice to see if it helps with the interrupted sleep, whilst it might be routine related it can also be pain which brings them fully awake rather than transitioning between cycles.
-
I can see if that may help ;)
I as wondering if I should cap any naps to preserve bedtime?
Also is it typical for a 7month old to still wake up 3 timeshare I might to feed?
-
If you're BF it isn't at all uncommon to have 2 feeds per night, I think you have a thread on the BF board for this, where you will get better advice than from me as I was unable to BF so my experience is extremely lacking.
If BT is getting late it's ok to reduce the last nap, perhaps just get him up when he wakes rather than trying to resettle, in that case I might reduce his A time slightly before the nap (if he will accept) and have a shorter A to bed, although I think you're aiming for a shorter A to bed anyway. I wouldn't have thought naps needed capping just yet but possibly. Just as guidance, a LO with a full 3hr A time and a 1.5 hr nap can still get through a day on 2 full naps and have a 12hr night (see example below), a LO might need a longer nap (2hr) or shorter A time in places, or have a shorter night. I would be cautious to cap a nap unless you really need to otherwise you can end up with a very long A time to bed or trying to get longer than 12hrs over night.
WU 7
A 3
S 10 - 11.30
A 3
S 2.30-4
A 3
BT 7
-
That is helpful. I ended up capping the last night two nights in a row and shortening the last A to get a reasonable BT. Surprisingly, I barely resettled and he slept pretty well both nights.
I do have a great update though :)
Yesterday, he actually took a nice 1.5 restorative nap after 2:50A. I thought it was a longshot especially since he slept 11.5 hours. However, I aimed for 3 hrs A and he put himself to sleep within 2 minutes and did n't need any resettling!!!!! The next nap was slightly UT which he put himself to sleep for within minutes at 2:55 A (I'm thinking he needed a touch of a longer A?). Last night he went to bed OT due to me putting him down too early then him becoming OT playing around in his crib (lesson learned). However, I only needed to resettle once then he slept for the rest of the night with 2 brief NW to feed! Much better than he has had in weeks!
Here is my routine from yesterday:
NW 10:08-11:06 (showered and DH took over), 1:59, 5:09 am
Total: ~11.25 hrs
WU: 8:42 (woke him up)
E 8:50 am
A
E 10:56 am
A
S 11:32- 12:59 pm (A 2:50; self settle; took 3-4 minutes)
E 1:05 pm
A
E 2:55 pm
A
S 3:53-5:21 pm (A 2:54; self settle; took 8-9 minutes. May have been too early to put him down (2.75A); woke up at 40. Might be slightly UT)
E 5:27 pm
A
E 7:50
S 8:42 pm (A 3:19; put him down 2:36 aiming for 2.75A and wasn't tired enough ended up OT. Tried shh pat for a half hour and was hysterical. Should have put him down closer to 2.75 or 2:50 to aim for about 3 hours A. Ended up rocking him)
NW 9:23 pm, 12am, 4:15 am
Not too shabby ;D
He woke up around 7 am this morning which gave hi 10 hours of sleep not including NW so I'm hoping today will go somewhat smoothly. I am happy because we can finally go back to an earlier routine ;D
So I guess I am wondering if it is possible that I misread him needing a 3:15A thinking he was UT but in actuality he was OT the entire time. I guess I will see what happens for the next few days with a routine that you posted.
WU 7
A 3
S 10 - 11.30
A 3
S 2.30-4
A 3
BT 7
-
So I guess I am wondering if it is possible that I misread him needing a 3:15A thinking he was UT but in actuality he was OT the entire time.
I don't think so, it's just been really hard to know with him insisting on growing teeth and developing ;)
You did try under 3hr and on 3hr for a good enough time really. Some times LOs also go back to a previous routine more readily after refusing or being reluctant for a while. Mine has done that several times in the past, almost like he was trying himself out on nap refusal, working out he actually did still need a nap and being very agreeable to it again.
It's good to hear good news :)
FX you have another good night and day x
-
Ok you might be right since I got two broken naps lol My DS sure knows how to keep me upright! ::)
So do I just jump back to 3.25 A for the first two then 2.75-3hr A until bed tomorrow? What would a sample look like?
WU 7 am
A 3.25
S 10:15-11:45 am
A 3.25
S 3-4:30 pm
A 2.75-3 hrs
S 7:15-7:30 pm
Would this be ok? Or do I cap a nap to make it a 12 hour day?
-
Would this be ok? Or do I cap a nap to make it a 12 hour day?
Could be either really, it really does depend on what your LO likes, there is not set rule. Some LOs are better with the proper nap and a slightly shorter night, some are better with a capped nap and full night.
-
Hmmmmm I guess it will be trial and error. I did learn that if my DS passes 3 hours of day sleep, he has frequent and long NW.
-
Hi!
So I wanted give you an update on today's routine. Yesterday was a mess as he was out all day and had a horrible OT meltdown at bedtime.
Anyways today I went back to 3.25 A since he slept for 11.5 hours last night. So the first nap he went down in about 5/7 minutes (self settled yay!!) and woke up at the 55 minute mark (he never does this) I resettled and he slept for two hours where I had to wake him. Second A he did not settle at all until 3.5A. I put him down at 3:05 since it usually takes him at most 10minutes to settle. If I put him down before that he just plays until he gets fussy or he puts himself to sleep only to Give me a short nap. Today, he played for more than 20 minutes and started getting fussy so I had to do shh pat. He was crying (probably because I had to holds him down because he kept rolling over and crawling while giggling and chatting it up. So now this nap is very late as he woke up late already ugh...I will have to wake him up to at least get him in bed at a somewhat decent hour (9pm smh). I plan to get him bak up to his normal wakeup time tomorrow.
He is about 7.5 months so I'm wondering if he's trying to extend his A? Or it may be residual OT from yesterday? (Yesterday he only got 11.5 hours total whereas he usually averages around 14 give or take 1/2hr)
Should I hold for 3.25 for another day or so and see?
Update: DS woke up from second nap after 30 minutes so I got him up and carried on. I tried putting him in the crib at 2:15 A and struggled with him for a half hour then he fell asleep then 5 minutes late screaming from what I imagine OT. I had to rock him. It is now 10 pm and he's finally asleep. Should I have cut his A shorter? I aimed for 2.5 since he normally has 2.5 A to BT after an hour nap. Maybe I should have aimed for 2 hours? I'm wondering in case he short naps again for the second nap.
-
Sorry honey, I'm not sure - you said he had 11 hr 30 min over night so you gave a full A of 3hr 15 min but then you said that he had 11hr 30 min total sleep the day before so might have been carrying over some OT. Did he not nap at all the day before? It's very hard to suggest anything when I'm not sure of what happened previously.
He might have been a bit UT for the second nap which is why he played around for too long and made himself too tired. So perhaps put down a touch later if he's had a very good 2hr nap.
I think if you are wanting an earlier routine it would be wise to wake him at a set time each morning.
-
Thank you!
Yes I can definitely see how there can be residual OT from Saturday. This is the routine from that day:
NW 8:38-9:32, 11:52, 2:26, 4:50 am
Total :~10.25
WU 8:03 am
S 12:19- 1:40 pm (A 4:15!!!!! Out with Aaron and did not sleep. Was screaming; had to resettle twice at 45 and 1:12.t); nursed to sleep bc was also hungry
S 5-5:35 pm (A 3:20; in stroller with DH)
S 8:08 pm (A 2:35; rocked)
And tons of NW which I expected after an hour long scream fest back to sleep after BT. Poor little guy.
So after a good 2 hour nap (this has happened multiple times) when you say put him down a tough later, do you mean maybe aiming for 3:20A?
Yes I plan on consistently getting him up at 7:30 and see how that goes if not move the routine to 7am. I know he doesn't do well with really late bedtimes. I wanted him to sleep in to catch up on sleep but in the end it didn't help much so I'll just try something different next time.
-
So after a good 2 hour nap (this has happened multiple times) when you say put him down a tough later, do you mean maybe aiming for 3:20A?
I'd aim for him to be asleep by 3.30 but to expect it not to take very long for him to fall to sleep.
-
Ok I will give it a try. I'm still getting 30 minute naps with 3-3.25 A in the am and for pm naps when he naps 1:25for the am. Still adjusting to A perhaps?
He's 7.5 months now. Do babies shift to shorter am A times all of a sudden? I'm sorry I'm just so confused.
-
I'm sorry I'm just so confused.
I'm sorry too - got me baffled.
Honestly I would have expected to see some longer naps by now. The A time is roughly right for age. Some LOs do go right over the guidance A times (mine did for morning A time but not the rest of the day) but I am reluctant to suggest increasing further.
When you look back at your EASY records do you see any pattern at all linked to the longer naps?
-
Ok what I have noticed now looking back is that when he did a long am nap last Thursday, it was after having around 11 hrs of sleep and with a 2:50A. When he has slept around 10 hrs of sleep with the same A then he has woken up 30-35 minutes. Sunday, he napped for 55 minutes after an 11.5 hr night on a 3:10A. However, after I resettled him he slept for 2 hours so it seemed like an OT situation.
Yesterday he slept (in my husbands arms while I was out) for 1.5 hrs. When I put him down for the second nap at 3:15 A he woke up at 33 minutes.
Maybe I need a shortened A in the am? Then maybe 3 hrs A for pm nap if it's a 1.5 morning nap?
Uhh soooooo confusing! Perhaps someone else has had experience with a similar situation? I'm totally stumped and shooting in the dark.
The A to bed is 2.5 of the pm nap is shorter than 1.25 and I think 2.75-3hr if he has a full 1.5 or more nap (which more is rare).
I almost just want to give up I'm so confused.
-
A couple of times you've mentioned wanting an earlier routine.
I wonder if your Lo would just do better overall if you woke him at a set time in the morning and gave some set naps and night time for a number of days. Some LOs thrive on the predictability of set nap times so they know where they are up to, yk?
What do you think?
-
I definitely think it's worth a try. I have read that having an earlier sleep routine goes along with biorhythms and so on. My problem is Everytime I get him on a earlier routine life happens and it gets pushed. I'll have to be consistent no matter what.
What would be a good place to start given all the info on my DS? What's appropriate in terms of A in set naps etc.
-
Well, with set naps you just go with best guess and stick at it, only changing if things seem right off.
Not sure what time you want to get started in the day so I'll give an example 7am WU and an 11hr 30 min night (this is the length you said his night was a few posts back).
WU 7
A 3hr 15
S 10.15 - 11.45 set nap
A 3hr 15
S 3.00 - 4.30 set nap
A 3hr
BT 7.30pm
Over night 7.30pm - 7am 11hr 30
It's just an example, if you don't feel this is the right thing then feel free to alter it according to your thoughts about his sleep needs and habits. An 11hr 3 night is good and 2 naps of 1.5hrs each is also good. I would try to resettle both naps for several days and following that period see if he'll transition alone and do a full nap. If he does then you just get him up and wait until the next nap time or bed time. There is a chance of long A times but he'll get used to that. It is normal for there to be some OT whilst you get into the routine.
Although the general EASY routine is not based on set nap times this is the way Tracy described getting LOs into the EASY routine initially, and keeping them up until the next nap time.
-
This looks great. I can definitely work on this for a week. In general how long does it take to get into the routine versus needing a tweak. I want to make sure I don't get impatient ;)