BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Atomic1010 on December 21, 2015, 16:01:23 pm
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Hi my 8 month old has never been a great sleeper. He had awful colic until he was 6 months old which meant he would scream for 3 hrs every evening from 6pm until he conked out from exhaustion. He has had silent reflux from birth for which we are on ranitidine and the dose is checked regularly.
Since he was 4 months old he has gone from waking 2-3 times a night to waking every 1-2 hrs. I tried sleep training months ago, mainly in day times, but come September came teeth, then illness, then teeth etc and no sleep training and second guessing how best to get past an awful situation.
10 days ago I started sleep training. It's a variation of shh pat. Mainly I just shh and use a key phrase as he finds patting annoying. It worked great for daytime naps and within a few days he was falling asleep within 10 mins on his own. Previously I had been breastfeeding to sleep pretty much all the time.
He generally has two naps a day now 2.5 hrs total and a has an A time of 3 hours, which all seem appropriate for his age.
Nights - I decided to feed every 3-4 hours when he wakes but do shh thing at other wake ups as he is not eating a great deal of solids. i have found that he is now self settling much quicker at the wake ups where he doesn't get fed which is good however he is still waking just as much. I have noticed that after a feed wake up he will sleep for 2 hours but after a self settle wake up he will sleep for an hour. I am trying to increase his solids intake with a view to doing 2 feeds a night rather than 3 as probably more age appropriate.
I appreciate the night training may take longer as he has been in an awful pattern for months but I just wanted some advice/support as I am exhausted and just not sure I'm doing the right thing. I've just had a bout of mastitis which nearly put me in hospital so pretty low right now and desperate for sleep.
One other thing that may be worth mentioning is that LO is still in his cot in my bedroom, as I didn't want him in his own room waking big brother in the next bedroom, and so it was easier for me to get up to feed/resettle. The health visitor suggested I should put him in his own room as might reduce night wakings but I don't know.
Please help I'm going round in circles!
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I would actually concentrate on upping his milk intake during the day and not the solids actually. Milk is far more calorie dense and has significant more nutritional value at this age than solids. I have seen on here solids can cause the NW's as they're not getting enough milk in during the day. As lomg as you're offering milk first then solids an hour or so later this shouldn't happen.
Would you mind posting what the day or two looked like in easy format for me please? I'm wondering if something is off there and best to rule it out.
Well done in establishing your ssh/pat technique. Modifying it like that to find what works best is brilliant.
It's up to you wrt his own room. I hope once we tweak some things and work on independent sleep the NW's will get better so he'll be less likely to wake so often at night. I think it's a personal choice. I don't think he'll be waking more just from being in your room necessarily, unless you have a noisy, snoring husband like mine, but that's just my view. Maybe once we sort the NW's you might feel more comfortable moving him out then? Or we try everything all at once, totally your call xx
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Thanks for your reply. The trouble at the moment is my milk has gone downhill since I became ill with mastitis last week. I tried a formula in a bottle with him tonight as I would rather he had more milk than more solids but he just wouldn't take it as he has always been breastfed. Not sure whether my milk will return and how to get formula into him :-( I've been feeling that my milk is dwindling for a few weeks now so not sure what to do if I am supposed to be increasing the amount I give to him?
I haven't had a normal day with him since last Tuesday because this mastitis has knocked me for six, or been recording them as too poorly, but the last day I noted down last week looked like this.
6.10 awake
7.30 bf (didn't bf on waking as had fed him at earlier NW)
9.05 - 10.05 S
10.30 solids and bf
1.30-3.30 S (I took him up at 1 but he took 30mins to settle)
3.30 bf
6.00 solids and bf
7.15 Asleep
Then awake at night 8.40, 10.15, 12.15-2.45, 4.45, 5.45
Since that day we seem to have lost the 2 hour awake period in the night which is something. Will try and start recording the days going forward now so I can show you what's happening in the day. Thanks again.
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Right I'm going to get some BF eyes for you wrt that. I do wonder if he's hungry at night.
I do think that last A might be a little long to BT. Hence the first NW so maybe adding on 15mims A to the first A then decreasing the last one by the same amount might help with that and keep your day the same length. I would actually try and keep the 3.5hrs or thereabouts second A as it looks like it suits him with that longer nap.
Yay to no long NW's though!! Much better xx
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Thanks if someone can advise on the feeding front that would be good.
On that day I took him up at 6.30 but he took a while to settle. Possibly as he is now getting used to settling himself or possibly because the last A time was too long.
I've been trying to feed him up on baby porridge before bed but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference to the NWs so not entirely sure he is waking through hunger but I could be wrong!
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Hi I just had time to skim your post (off to work!). At his age I would say a feed or so at night is not unusual in an ebf baby really but then I also wonder, with him in the same room are some of the wakings times he may have gone back off to sleep himself but because you are right there you jump in quicker. Also I remember with DD3 we got to a point where my coming in to bed disturbed her and we disturbed each other overnight! Have a look at these links too:
I'm worried I may have low milk supply
Mastitis/Plugged Ducts
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Thanks those links were useful especially the one about milk supply. I have bought some formula to mix with his porridge etc and get him a few more calories. I am also trying to breastfeed befor solids but I'm not sure I know what else to do to reduce the wakings?
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Hi there, just marking my spot really as I've been following your journey for a while on the other board, but I'm sure the new eyes over here will be a big help :-* (((hugs))) sorry about the mastitis, hope you're starting to feel better? Do keep us posted, as always, seeing your current routine can really help :-*
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Hi trimbler thanks for your post so good to know you are still there. I haven't had many replies to my post and been feeling a bit dispondant about it, although I do appreciate with Christmas just been and gone most mummies will be busy with family stuff.
The mastitis has gone thankfully and it was awful. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and I hope I don't have it again.
I will post a routine next week when OH goes back to work and DS1 is back at nursery as things are all over the place with LOs routine because of this and seeing family over Christmas. For example today he woke at 7am then slept from 10.30-11.30, then went until 4.30 for a 30 min cat nap and has only just gone to bed. The last few days he has stopped doing a regular A time of 3 hours and has been going 3.5-4 hrs as an A time and has been hard to settle for day naps, which was the source of a tearful breakdown in front of all my family and OHs family on Boxing Day.
I have taken kellyjs's advice and been feeding LO up at bedtime on porridge and formula. And we have had 3 nights where LO has woken every 3 hrs which has been great! Last night was every two hours and I was only able to resettle without feeding him to sleep on a couple of occasions as he just got very upset and I caved.
I have found that after a bf at night he will sleep for 2-3 hours whereas if he resettles himself with my help he wakes after 30mins- 1hr, which made me wonder if hunger is the issue?
I need to try harder at getting him to resettle himself when he wakes at a time when I don't plan to feed him. the last couple of nights I haven't done as well as I should do but it's hard when I'm tired and just want to crawl back into bed.
I just want to be through all of this, it's been months now since his bad sleep started :(
Hopefully posting an updated routine next week might help someone suggest what may be causing all these wake ups.
Thanks again for sticking with me!
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We're all here for you. Hopefully once things settle down and the routine is back in place, we'll be able to see a pattern for you. Well done on the resettling though, that's amazing progress even if it's not every night.
Look forward to hearing from you xx
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Yes I second what Kelly said :-* I know it can be so hard (((hugs))) especially when staying with family and wanting to spend quality time with the but feeling stuck with a baby who's not sleeping well - just back from that myself :P But things should settle down a bit once normal routine kicks in, and as Kelly said, we may be able to see some patterns - will probably let Kelly take the lead over here and chip in when I have extra thoughts, since we need her fresh eyes and experience ;)
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Thanks Both :) OK well our days have got a little bit more back to normal after the Christmas period but for some reason day sleeping has gone awry.
I am having considerable trouble putting LO down for a nap. Until a couple of weeks ago LO was doing an A time of 3 hours which was very regular and was falling asleep in 10 minutes without any trouble. But recently when I have put him to bed at the same time I would have done normally he just lies in the cot crying and screaming and kicking the bars. I have been leaving him for a few minutes when this happens and if no improvement/settling I have got him up and tried again every 15-30 minutes until he falls asleep. This morning was the same but after he had been awake for almost 4 hours I just tried to help him settle in the cot as it was clear he was tired - eye rubbing, nose rubbing and yawning etc plus he had been up for a while. i had been thinking that perhaps the kick and screaming was a complaint at being taken to bed as he was UT.
I dont know why he is having trouble settling he never has had this in this way before. I can only think teething as he hasnt had a tooth through for a month so is about due one?
Anyway here is what happened yesterday
7.20 Awake
8 am solids as bf at 5.30 wake.
11bf
11.20-11.55 S - didnt settle at all well and tried numerous times to take him to bed after 10.30
12.30 solids
1.30 bf
2.35-4.35 S - settled fine this time
4.45 bf
5.30 solids
6.30 bf
7.40 Asleep for night. Settled fine.
Then he woke at 9.30pm, 11.30 1.45 - 3.30 Awake for almost 2 hours (this happened previous night too), 5.30, then awake this morning at 7 am.
I did bf back to sleep on all occasions apart from long wake up when he settled himself, which I know was not good but I had been up with both LO and DS1 a number of times on the preceding two nights so I took the easy way to settling him so I could get myself some sleep as was shattered. Will try harder tonight as I know my inconsistency is not helping! Today so far has been a pretty much mirror image of yesterday.
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So he hasn't had A times higher than average before has he? But he's had these long NW's for a long while now if I'm right? I briefly remember your other thread with trimbler, but it might be best if we start afresh rather than rehashing all the old stuff.
Do you notice a difference to the NW's when he's had less sleep throughout the day? Maybe with all the extra craziness at Xmas he didn't take his usual long naps? We're the NW's better then? Or we're they better when he took longer naps before?
I take it he's not taking a full feed at those NW's then? You've definitely got enough feeds int her through the day, so I'm actually going to rule out hunger.
During the 2-hr long NW, what happens if I may ask? Is he playing around or is he upset for most of the NW?
I do think it's time to bump the first A, especially as you're having such trouble putting him down. I would aim for a straight jump to 3.5hrs considering all the messing about.
Fwiw the day time routine doesn't look too bad. My DD was on something similar at 8mo but with a longer day. A 1.5hr nap and a 45mims nap on a 12.5hr day. There is a sleep regression that can happen around now too, a less documented one than the 4mo one where most people have troubles but it still causes some havoc. I experienced NW's with my DD at this age for a little while, but it did coincide with a need to push the A times quite a bit actually.
I look forward to hearing from you wrt the answers to my many questions (sorry!), but if you could try the 3.5hr first A tomorrow in the meantime and let me know how that goes too? We will sort this for you ok? It may take a bit of time and tweaking, but we will get there xx
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Hi thanks for your reply.
In answer to your questions:
1) No his A times have generally been on the lower end of what is expected for his age. And yes he has had these night wakings since he was 4 months old.
2) The NWs have been the same regardless of his daytime sleep pattern and routine. I have had him consistently settling himself at nap times and at bedtimes for a month now but it hasn't made a difference to the nights.
3) When he wakes in the night and I feed him he is taking a full feed. It's not a little comfort suck to get him off to sleep albeit being fed knocks him out.
4) The 2 hr night waking is not a regular thing thankfully but when it does happen he generally rolls around his cot happily for a bit, then he cries and I try and settle him, then he is ok for a bit, then he cries again. The process carries on like this until he falls asleep. I often feed him to try and get him to sleep but this doesn't work.
Yesterday was a mirror image of the previous day's routine that I posted however he only slept for an hour in the afternoon giving a total day sleep of 1.5 hrs. Last night he went to sleep at 6.45pm, woke at 9.30pm was fed, then 11 when I helped him self settle but he then woke again half an hour later so I fed him. Then he was awake every 2 hours till 6am. At 6am he fell asleep on me when I picked him out of cot but only for 10 mins. He has just gone down for his first morning nap at 9.35am so that's roughly an A time of 3.5 hrs, which you wanted us to try.
From what you have said it sounds like the daytime routine is fine and not that he is waking out of hunger. Therefore, I can only assume that perhaps it's a prop issue at night and a bad habit? Plus my own weakness at not regularly getting him to self settle because of my tiredness, and the fact that when he wakes he is very upset.
It's strange as in the past week after I started feeding him up more at bedtime and in the day, he did 4 nights where he slept better and woke every 3 hrs but the last 3 nights have been back to square one and I haven't done anything different nor has his daytime sleep amount been different.
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Did he settle better for the nap at 3.5hrs. A?
The daytime routine would be fine for a bubba with higher than average A times. Not a problem at all, it may be that he's showing us that's what he's preferring now. Again, it's not unheard of and it's not crazy high.
So this is what I'm wondering, if the NW's have been going on for so long, perhaps he does want higher than average A times and maybe always did? Only time will tell.
Ok, let's see if he has got a prop too. I'm guessing a little one may have sneaked in there, especially as he does knock him out. I would pick maybe once to feed him and all other NW's try and resettle using your words and ssh/pat. I probably wouldn't feed so early on in the night at 9.30pm if he's taken a decent feed at BT. Maybe 11pm or after? It's always nice to have a plan before you got o bed at night so in the confusion, you have it in your head. Wdyt?
Alternatively so not to confuse him, is there anyone else like daddy around that could help with the NW's at the wknd? So all other NW's except the one where you feed, he will go in to settle? It might just be the shake up he needs?
One thing I want to also change is your feeding routine if I may? I notice you feed a little later after wu , that's fine. But what I'm noticing is that actually solids is coming before BF in your routine. It may be that he's getting a little too filled up on solids before taking a full BM feed which is higher in calories. Especially that dinner time one. He's eating dinner at 6pm, then BT feed is only an hour later. I found with my DD she stopped taking as much at the BT feed when dinner was too late. I only noticed as she was bottle fed. I posted on here about it actually as we were trying to wean the DF and she was taking more at the DF than at BT! What I was told was to move dinner earlier to 4pm. It worked! I was able to phase out the DF using this method. It wasn't forever, but just whilst we were trying to drop the DF which effectively is what you're trying to do with the 9.30pm feed. Dys what I mean? Xx
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Yes he settled better for the morning nap at 3.5hrs but not in the afternoon despite being obviously tired so I settled (by which I mean using words and shh pat him in cot) which didn't take too long but he woke upset after 30mins and the rest of the afternoon was very long as he was grumpy.
After reading your post last night I decided to feed only at 11 and 3. I don't think he is ready for just one feed and I don't want to do that given when I have been feeding him in the night he does take a full feed.
But last night was a disaster. He went to bed at 6.45pm with no real problems and slept til 10. Decided to resettle as not a feed time. But over 40 mins he resettled 3 times and fell asleep for about 5 mins only to wake crying again. I decided he could be hungry so fed at 10.45pm. He then woke at 1pm and I fed him :( not good I know. He then woke at 2.30 and I resettled him only for him to wake at 3.30 am and I fed him again, but he woke 10mins later crying and I managed to resettle him. He then woke at 5.30 and I could not resettle so got him up. So not good in terms of feeding him at 1am when I wasn't supposed to and him waking so often - I wonder if he was uncomfortable?
We have tried getting daddy in to resettle but LO got hysterical so we stopped that and daddy is in the spare room currently as he works and being woken every 1-2hrs each night was impacting on his ability to function at work. I have asked daddy to sleep in with me over the weekend to give me some support to not feed when I'm not supposed to as I need a nudge, as when I'm half asleep I am taking the easy way out.
Good point on feeding routine which I will change today. He has been off solids a little last couple of days..I'm wondering if he is teething again although can't get a look in his mouth to see!
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I wonder if he's teething too - being off solids and not letting you look in his mouth, trying to settle but waking after 5mins... Try medicating at BT for that? (((Hugs)))
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Yes I think that's a good idea. Might explain why his daytime sleep has gone awry in terms of him not being able to settle so easily in the last week. The only other thing could be we took him off his morning dose of reflux meds last week and have just been giving him the evening dose on the basis he is more likely to have any reflux at night. The paediatrician at our local hospital suggested we wean him off it as it was his opinion that LO shouldn't need it anymore now he is doing fairly well with solids and is upright more of the time. We are going to put him back on morning dose to see if it changes things but I do think more likely teeth.
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I too wondered if discomfort was playing an issue. I would reinstate the reflux meds and see if that makes a difference. I wonder if the reflux flares when they're teething too but am unsure about that.
That many NW's I would assume pain. I agree with trimbler.. Could you try medicating with ibuprofen and see if that helps? DD always went off solids when teething too, as she wouldn't let me look inside her mouth either I took that as a good sign that she was teething.
I wonder if we should bring the afternoon A back a little bit there? Keep the 3.5hrs for first A, but do 3hrs 15mins for the second one and see if that helps? They can show a preference for staggered A times at this age. What's the A time to BT now? Xx
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Yes reflux does tend to flare when teething :-*
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Thanks both. Have dosed him up with calpol before bed so will see how we go 😬 Gave him the full dose of reflux meds today so hopefully if there is an issue there it will help. His A to BT seems to be around 3 hours, and I've found he only takes 30mins to settle and doesn't need much help.
Afternoon nap didn't go well today he wouldn't go down so I bf to sleep as his A time was 4 hours at that point, he did have a good 1.5 HR nap after so that was something. I plan to have a go at just feeding him at 11 and 3 tonight, with resettling in between, and let's see how it goes.
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Ok slightly odd night last night. LO was crying in his sleep at 8.30pm and I managed to settle him down with shh/pat. Then he woke at 9.30 so I fed him. He then slept til 12.30 which was great so I fed him again and he slept til 2.45 and I could not resettle him easily so I fed him again and he slept til 5.45 when he woke for the day. So two 3 hour stints was good and unexpected. Not sure why he did this. I can only think the extra hours sleep in the day may have helped? I'm not complaining but strange..there seems to be no consistency.
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This is good actually. I wonder if the longer nap before BT helped? I also think that last A might still be a little long considering he's waking in the early part of the night. Have you tried a shorter A to BT like 2.5hrs?
Do remember the ibuprofen version of Calpol works better than the paracetamol version. And do you elevate the crib slightly? You might have done it for his reflux before by putting a couple of towels under one end of the mattress? That does help too xx
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I dont think it was the afternoon nap as yesterday he had a bad afternoon nap. he couldn't settle so I bf him, then he woke after half an hour crying and I rocked him back to sleep but he woke after 15 mins. Luckily he had a good morning nap for 1.5 hrs. So despite the afternoon naptime difficulties he woke at 9.30, 12,30, 3, 3.30, 5.30 and 7 last night. I bf on all occasions apart from the 3.30 one as he had been fed only 30 mins before and he settled himself ok with a little patting. I haven't tried a shorter A to BT and last night it was 3 hours again so perhaps this suits him?
So ive had two better nights with him now since being back on the full dose of the reflux meds....could be coincidence, but either way Im going to keep going with them. We did have the cot elevated for a long time but put it down a month ago as LO was starting to roll more about the cot and the decline in its height meant he invariably ended up at the bottom end. The change in cot elevation to flat has made no difference to his sleep pattern.
I guess the next thing to work on is dropping the 9.30pm feed as we talked about. Out of interest, because you have a lot more experience in baby NWs than me, what makes you think that the whole issue with LOs waking at nights isnt solely a prop one?
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It can be a prop issue, especially as you're battling naps now as well. Ideally if they are ss at naps and BT, NF's can still be a prop, but waking that often I still would assume discomfort.
Rule of thumb generally is that a NW 2hrs or less after BT is usually too long of an A before BT. Long NW's in the early hours is normally a need for the daytime A time to be increased. I would still like to try the shorter A to BT if you're willing? Just to rule it out. Especially if that last nap continues to be the shorter one.
Yes, I would work on dropping some of these NFs if you can. A good place to start is the 9.30pm one. Have you moved dinner earlier like I mentioned before? I think that'll help him take a good feed at BT therefore less likely to need feeding at 9.30pm xx
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Thanks that's helpful. Yes I am willing to try the shorter A to BT it's just it's a bit tricky with collecting DS1 from nursery and then trying to sort him out. Hopefully with the weekend coming I can try it out then :)
In terms of feeding him up before BT what I have been doing is the bf first and then filling him up with as much porridge/Fromage frais etc he will eat after. So tonight I did the bf at 5.45 then his dinner just before 6 and I then took him up for the bedtime routine about 6.15 and he was asleep about 6.45.
Ok will work on dropping 9.30 feed - thanks again.
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Well a bit of a surprise last night - LO slept til 11.30! So he did almost 5 hrs straight for first time in 5 months! Can only think the big feed before bed helped. He then woke at 1.30,3.30 and then at 5.30 when he was full of wind so resettling didn't work as he was too awake once he had got rid of it all. I fed on all wake ups but feeding at 1.30 was a half asleep mistake :-(
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That's a great first stretch - let's celebrate that :D :D
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Woo hoo! :) bet that felt good. Would you mind posting what the day was like so we have something to reference for the future? Thanks xx
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Yes it was a nice surprise :-))
Sure...
7.20 awake
8am bf then 8.30 solids
10.10-10.40 sleep in car as out and about
11bf, 12.15 solids, 1.30bf
2-2.30 S but woke crying at end of nap bf to sleep again
2.35-3.35 S
4 bf, 5.30 bf then 6 solids
6.50 asleep
Today hasn't gone very well for both his morning and afternoon nap he struggled to settle then he woke after 30mins into each nap crying and I rocked him back to sleep. I took him up to bed this evening just over 2 hrs from the end of his last nap to try getting a 2.5 HR A to BT. But he took almost an hour to settle and was rolling around in the cot and crying off and on so we did a 3 HR A to Bt in the end. Don't know why the daytime naps are going pear now but hopefully a phase or SR. I don't have high hopes for tonight after how badly today's naps have gone.
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That's interesting, reminds me of my DS who really needed a long pm nap in order to have a long-ish A to BT without getting OT, which would in turn result in a good night... If the pm nap wasn't long then he couldn't manage a long A to BT without getting OT so we'd either get OT wakings in the early evening or UT ones later on if we gave him EBT. I just wonder whether a nice long pm nap may be key for him, perhaps by limiting the am nap...it may seem a little early to do that but I also seem to remember that DS needed his am nap limited to 1h 10mins around 9mo in order to get a decent pm nap. Yours may need it shorter. Just a thought!
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Im not sure as I looked throughmy notes and on other days he had a long pm nap it didn't make a difference although his am nap was shorter. Last night was bad, awake at 9, 9.30, 11.15, 12.30 (ibuprofen given in hope), 2.30, 3, 5 then off and on til 6 when I gave up trying to resettle and got him up. Feeling massively cheesed off as previous three nights were better and I thought things were improving. I go back to work in 3 months so starting to worry that we wont have cracked it by then. :(
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I still think the shorter A to BT might've helped there. On the day with the longer nap. I believe it gives us something to go on.
I'm with trimbler. I wonder if limiting the first nap may help a bit, bring forward the second A a little as I wonder if that second nap was a tad OT. Do you have any other way of resettling him at all? I notice he was awake for 5mins before he dropped back off again. Do you try ssh/pat or anything or do you go straight for BF back to sleep?
Also, has he ever done 12hr nights? Obviously excluding the NW's. We're trying to work with a routine here that's on a 12-hr day and it may be that's not feasible.
Are you still keeping up with the reflux meds? Xx
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Hi - in terms of resettling during an early wake up from naps I don't always bf to sleep sometimes shh/pat works or rocking, or even the sound of his mobile music. He doesn't do 12 hr nights it's generally 10-11 hrs so I don't want to start capping the morning nap as generally he is waking 5.30-6 which means his second nap would probably happen early afternoon meaning an early BT which wouldn't work with what I have to do with his older brother etc. I would rather stick to tweaking A times. However, for me, the thing I want to work on is not feeding to sleep at every WU and dropping the 9.30pm wake as I think that's habitual and I do think we have a prop issue at night. Although it didn't go particularly well last night.
He woke at 10 and I helped him resettle but he woke after 20mins I fed him. He then woke at 12.30 and i tried to resettle but he just ended up wide awake and crying off and on for 2.5hrs. He did drop off a few times only to wake after a few minutes crying. Least when he did fall asleep he slept for 3 hrs til 5.30 when I didn't even attempt to resettle but fed and he slept til 8! So tired!! :(
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Poor you, sending you lots of hugs.
Yes, as he does only tend to do closer to 10-11hrs, it might e an idea to keep trying with the slightly longer naps xx
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Ok so last night I was up with LO at 8.30, 9.30, 10.30, 1.30-3.30 and 4.30. I have no idea what is going on and calpol at 1.30 didn't help. Only positive was that he ss'd on all occasions apart from 10.30 and 4.30 when I fed him....
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Ouch, poor you (((hugs))) but big well done for sticking to the feeding plan and getting him to ss :) It may well be that you'll have to ride out a few nights like this consistently (I know...:( ) until he gets the new plan and starts to ss more quickly until his NWs become more like a little stirring between sleep cycles and back off again - ie normal night time sleep.
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Well done you for sticking with it, honestly amazing! :) and yay to the ss! Woo hoo
I think discomfort is still at play here. There's no way he'd be waking that often if something wasn't going on. Any new foods introduced? How's the reflux meds going? Teeth yet? xx
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Thanks! We are still on the full dose of his reflux meds and I think he is likely teething again as he has been chomping on his fingers a lot last few days. He hasn't had a tooth for over a month so I think one is due. If I stick to the feeding plan how long will it take to him ss without waking crying and me helping him do you think? I just feel like this is never ending as its been going on for 5 months now.
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Last night was worse - he wouldn't ss with my help or after a feed on most WUs and if he did he was awake again after 15 mins. Only twice was he out for a 2hr stint, the rest was waking every hour or less. I'm shattered and frustrated as I can't progress the sleep training as I wanted. These teeth better come through soon!! I even dosed him up with ibuprofen for bed beforehand....
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Oh dear teething can be really horrible :( Any signs of one about to break through? How have the days been? :-*
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I'd definitely suspect teething or after what i've just been through, I'd take him to the doctors to rule out an ear infection. I have a feeling this might be a little more than just teething as he should've been able to go at least a couple of hours with ibuprofen xx
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Sorry to hear you've got a poorly little one too Kellyjs :(
I'm pretty certain it's teething as his gums either side of his two front teeth look red but I will see how we go in case it is something else. The days have been okish apart from today. We seem to have got rid of some of the issues with settling for naps that I was seeing around Christmas and the new year and generally he will go down ok for first nap and second nap is a little hit and miss.
Naps today not great he woke up half an hour into each nap crying and I bf back to sleep. I ended up waking him after 2.5 hours of his morning nap as I was worried it would mean his afternoon nap would end up late afternoon and BT even later. Probably not the best idea as the day went downhill from then and he has been cranky and irritable, and often upset. I think we have some separation anxiety too as he gets very upset whenever he loses sight of me. I'm wondering whether to introduce a lovey or whether this is a phase that will just pass. He also seems to like holding my hand when settling at night and I was wondering if this was a good idea as I don't want to introduce another prop ::)
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I will always vote for a lovey. They are amazing things! Have you seen the link about SA? There's some helpful things you can do during have day that should help too.
Holding your hand is better than BF to sleep every time I'm sure. Yes, it can turn into another prop, but maybe if you can reverse it in that your hand is on top of his, then you can look at gently reducing the pressure?? Just an idea xx
Separation Anxiety
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Thanks that's useful.
To be honest I'm really struggling now :'(. For the fourth night in a row I've been up just about every hour of the night with LO and I'm exhausted. For the third day in a row his afternoon nap hasn't gone well and he has been waking at 30 min intervals and I've been rocking him back to sleep. There is just no end in sight - as soon as things seem to be going better for a couple of days they get worse. I can't see us progressing the sleep training while he is teething and this is just another massive setback. It's been 5 months without a decent nights sleep now and I don't know how much longer I can keep this up. I was crying in the bathroom at 4.30am last night and felt like getting in the car and leaving :(
I am just hoping for a better night tonight....
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Oh (((hugs))) sleep deprivation is awful :( Can DH take over at all in the night? I really struggle to handle sleep deprivation so when my DD's sleep has been bad for a few nights I sleep in the living room as DH copes with it better, sometimes he doesn't even wake up to it but he will wake if she really needs someone.
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Huge ((hugs)) from here too. I second DH takes over for a bit. We always think we have to do everything all the time, I'm guilty of that one. I didn't have a lie in until DD was 18mo! If you feel he can't do the night shift, perhaps he takes over the A time in the morning so you can go back to bed and get a few hours in?? xx
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Thanks both for your kind words. Rough night again last night up every hour and awake from 12.30-2.30 which I didn't understand as he was so tired. So this morning he work up with conjunctivitis in one eye which soon spread to the other so he isn't having much fun. His reflux has been awful too at night. Think I will be in for a few rotten nights til his eyes improve. LO gets really upset if DH tries to settle him in the night so I might have to take the brunt of it for the time being and get DH to help in the morning so I can get a lie in for an hour if DS1 lets me!
In terms of sleep training when I saw a paediatrician a month ago when LO was poorly he gave me a bit of a talking to about why LO was waking so much and why I hadn't done lots of sleep training, and he was saying I should sleep train through teething but this doesn't seem right to me? But then LO will be teething on and off for months so perhaps he is right and I should carry on once LO has got over the conjunctivitis?
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Oh I love it when doctors and health visitors put their two cents in! ::). No you can't actively sleep train as they are in pain and it is rather difficult to set a precedent when they're ill or otherwise. Many of these also recommend CIO or CC so tbh i take what they say with a pinch of salt.
There will always be periods of teething, so we just pick a time like before where he is only waking once or twice. You cant possibly be expected to ST when you're up with him every single hour of the night. That's just pain, plain and simple and that little bubba needs you. Once we do get through this bout of conjunctivitis, we'll revisit again. But, I'm actually a little relieved something has presented itself such as this because at least now we can see a reason! Please don't be hard on yourself, you're honestly doing so well. I think I'd have lost the plot by now :-*
Did the doctor mention increasing his reflux dose? I remember we wanted to reduce it last time didn't he?
Please try and get your lie in. Even if you just stay in bed and read a book (ahh maybe not that as doubt you'll finish it ;)), or a trashy magazine and allow yourself some Y time. Dad's actually love ths one on one time, I didn't give DH enough opportunity when DD was little thinking I had to be there every single second. Hindsight is a beautiful thing, but hell I would've definitely had more sleep!! xx
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That's what I thought re training. Paed also said I shouldn't have him on reflux meds given his age and he made me feel pretty rubbish. But think he is wrong on both points and clearly all his children must sleep like angels given he was so patronising! Hopefully we can get back on track this week with ST...or at least soon. DH is putting me under a littlpressure to do CC or CIO because he says what I have been doing isn't working and need to try something else. I'm not sure as I think in part it might be due to my lack of consistency at nights at each WU but I am desperate for all these NWs to end or reduce, when things get back to normal. Thanks again.
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Of course I'd never advocate CC or CIO, it's not fair on the LO. Tracy believed it could break the bonds of trust between a LO and its caregiver. He's in pain atm, to ask him to also feel abandoned, will just make matters worse for you come BT or any time you try and leave him alone to sleep. If it helps ask your DH to read this link xx
Cry it out (CIO): 10 reasons why it is not for us
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!
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Thanks that's helpful. DH wasn't suggesting we do that whilst LO is poorly as he understands that the little guy is going to need some extra hugs and attention right now :-)
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Ok well LO's conjunctivitis and minor cold had just about gone. He is still working on two teeth but they don't seem to be bothering him too much. Therefore, I've decided to get back onto the sleep training tonight. I've decided to do with what I was going to do before in terms of feeding at 11 and 3 only tonight and helping LO settle in the cot in between those times. Then I plan to move the feed times back half an hour each night until I am just feeding once at 2am When I help him to settle I'm going to just shhh as touching him seems to encourage hand holding, his latest thing. Do you think this is ok?
I'm going to try and give it a good go as I know my own inconsistency with the training in the last few weeks hasn't helped. It has to work as the sleep issues are now causing me health issues (skin rash on back of hands and legs) and problems in my relationship with DH, who has been really understanding but is frustrated with the situation and we seem to get cross with each other and argue whenever the sleep issue comes up - which is every day. If we don't see any improvement this week I think we are going to do CC as we need things to change :-\ Our HV, who is lovely and v supportive, has also been saying that she thinks CC may be the only solution so we will see.
I could really do with some words of support as I need to stick to this! :)
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Oh (((hugs))) I know this has been such a rough journey for you :-\ Glad to hear the cold and conjunctivitis are gone now :) We're still here :-* and I really hope that your DH is on board to give you the support that you need right now - will he take on some of the settling, at the weekend for example?
Your plan sounds good to me, if you can really stick to it - I understand that you haven't always had the opportunity to do so with ill health etc, but you really won't know if it can work until you do :-* expect some bumps but if you can stay consistent then it will pay off in the end. One thing to ponder - I remember seeing Kelly suggesting this recently - if he likes to hold your hand to go to sleep, can you do it so that your hand it on top, so that you can gradually reduce the pressure over time?
Do keep us posted with routines etc whilst you're doing this, we are here to support you in doing the best you can for your LO, which we don't believe is CC, although I do hear you that you're at the end of your tether :-*
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Here with you too hun, keep us posted and as Trimbler said, keep a log of the days and nights and what you do and let's crack this! :) xx
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Thanks so much both :)
Last two nights have been rough but I have just about stuck to my plan and fed only at 10.30 and 2.30, but I have also fed at 4. Rest of the time, and there have been a lot of NWS (every hour almost for first half of night), I have helped him settle in cot and tried to avoid hand holding however every time I put hand in to do pat bit of shh pat he grabs it and it's hard to wrestle it free, but I do try.
He has clearly been uncomfortable at night and daytime naps are awful with him waking every 30 mins so something is bothering him. He still has a little conjunctivitis which returned yesterday and a slight cough, and teeth on the way so can only assume it's one of those. Hence I've snuck in an unplanned extra feed. Going to try moving 10.30 one back 30 mins tonight as I've noticed that he doesn't seem to be feeding much then and this will mean later feed goes back. I'm taking it slower than planned as LO has been so unsettled.
So no progress in terms of reducing NWs, but least I'm not picking him up at every waking now...
Here is Monday's routine as last two days involved naps in car as out and about. I'm not recording feeds as doing 3 meals a day and 3-4 bfs a day.
6.15 Awake
9.15 - 11 S Bf to sleep as wouldn't settle. This is unusual for morning nap as normally he settles fine.
2-3.45 S bf to sleep as wouldn't settle then woke crying after 60 mins and rocked back. This happens at nearly all afternoon naps now for last 3 wks.
7.10 asleep. Took up at 6.30 but difficulty settling
Night wakings at 10.10, awake 1.10-3 struggling to settle but drifted off a number of times only to wake after 5 minutes, awake 5-5.30 off and on, 6.30, then late waking up at 8.
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Oh (((hugs))) it will be especially tough during the first few days, especially if he is in discomfort - I know you're keen to make this work but if he's still really in pain then you're right to go slowly - just checking you are giving pain meds? Do you need to up them at all, do you think? Within the recommended dose of course! Use both paracetamol and ibuprofen?
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Hi i gave him ibuprofen before bed on Tuesday and Wednesday nights and calpol in the middle of the night but they made no difference to the number of NWs so I decided not to give him any last night.
He woke first at 9am and settled himself fairly quickly which was great. He then woke at 11.30 so I fed as planned. Next wake up was the killer 1.44-3.15!!! He dropped off a few times only to wake again a few minutes later. Towards the end of the waking he started to get quite upset and couldn't settle so I fed him as it was planned and I think he was so OT dropping off himself would have taken longer. He then woke at 5.30 and up for the day at 7.
He can't seem to sleep longer than 2 hrs at night. I'm not sure whether it's a bad habit now or whether there's something wrong with him :( I know I've only done 3 nights of this but I don't feel I'm getting anywhere.
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((hugs)) for the long NW, We've just had one of those and it is yucky.
How old is he now? I'm wondering if that first nap might be a little early? He's sleeping well for his naps (when he does go down), that perhaps it's time for a bump in A times so he can self-settle and we don't go backwards in feeding to sleep every time?
the day length is good at 13hrs, but it may be that we have to consider two long naps isn't quite the way to go anymore?? xx
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Hi hun, I just popped on and read the last 4 pages and my first thought is that your baby is waking from discomfort at night. I've never known a baby wake so frequently who has not been suffering from reflux or intolerance or some other form of discomfort. I cannot understand why your paed is suggesting he is too old for reflux meds!!! Does he understand reflux at all? Has your LO ever been tested for reflux with a test such as the barium swallow? There are children and adults on reflux meds so despite many babies growing out of it as they get older it is not always the case. And seeing as your LO is having symptoms and seems to have been having them for many months I would actually be asking your doctor to trial a better medication rather than weaning him off the one he is on because he thinks he should have grown out of it by now.
Did you read the link on Separation Anxiety pp posted earlier in the thread? I ask not because I am suggesting that this all stems from SA but because it has a description of how to do WIWO with a baby 8-12mo. I believe this would be an excellent method for you to try instead of CC. I've used similar with my second two children at a similar age and I believe it works quickly in babies who are not sleeping independently because they are looking for mum. CC stresses babies out. It causes the release of high levels of cortisol (the stress hormone) which is toxic and affects brain development. Studies done on monkeys, but which could reasonably be applied to human babies, showed this hormone was not released in babies who would see or hear their mother when left (in a cage). This is the big difference between leaving baby to cry alone and being present even if baby is upset. Also, getting very upset, as would be the case for a baby left to cry alone, is painful for a reflux sufferer as it aggravates the condition.
I really believe your baby is trying to tell you something when he wakes and cries in the night. It may be that he feels the reflux discomfort and seeks milk to sooth the burning or that snuggling into your breast distracts him enough to settle back to sleep. I'd try to think of it was helping him get through these uncomfortable times. It won't last forever although I know it seems like it at the time.
Another option to consider if he is still in your room is to just lie in your bed and gently tell him to go back to sleep or shush him. I would actually move him out of your room if you do think you are disturbing him. My DD is still in our room (because we don't have another room to move her to until we move in the summer) and I know we distrub her. I am actually scared to move at night and sometimes curse my DH as it disturbs her every time we roll over and the bed creaks or one of us comes to bed or gets up for the loo, the older boys or in the morning. So if you have that option I would definitely try it.
Failing that if you just want some sleep you could consider just pulling him into bed with you so you can see to him without needing to really wake or get up but that is probably just putting off the sleep training for the future.
Big hugs. I hope you find something that works for you and your baby. :)
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Kellyjs - LO was 9 months old last week. The 3 hour first A time seems to suit him in the morning, probably as he is so tired from the rubbish night. I've tried increasing the A time between the morning and afternoon naps to see if that helps with the afternoon nap and it doesn't. His afternoon nap has been rubbish since the week before Christmas and I'm thinking I might do some sleep training with starting this weekend to see if we can get a better nap back for him. Wdyt?
Ali - thanks for reading through 4 pages of posts and your thoughts, it was very helpful. I will read up in wi/wo and am certainly open to trying that. I do think you could be right and that the NWs are caused by discomfort, and his reflux. I have a follow up paed appointment, from the time LO was poorly before Xmas and I saw that paed that was patronising, booked for 2 weeks time. I was going to cancel because I am expecting I will get the same rubbish about LO being on reflux meds and sleep training, but you have made me think that I should keep the appointment because if I am giving the sleep training my best shot and it changes something there could be an underlying medical reason for it all we need to get to the bottom of. Hopefully not!! We have tried omeprazole for his reflux which gave him wind, but I decided not to try Gaviscon and Domperidone but perhaps that needs reconsidering. He had awful colic until he was 5 months old and would literally scream for 3 hours every evening and I've read that babies with bad colic often have sleep issues even after the colic has gone.
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Hey there, just wondered how last night was and today? I really hope the doctor you see at the next appointment takes all the symptoms seriously and manages to get to the bottom of this probable discomfort - it's been going on for so long, hasn't it :-\ I also had an experience of my concerns re reflux being dismissed with DS, in hindsight I feel I should have pursued a second opinion since I've seen what a big difference the meds have made with DD. But it's so hard when a medical person makes you feel like there's nothing wrong and it's just you, especially when it's your first child (((hugs)))
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Hey trimbler - thanks I agree it's hard to ask either more questions or to question what a doctor says sometimes, and some doctors can be so dismissive. However, I did quite a bit of reading up on reflux from reputable websites last night and the gist was that reflux sufferers shouldn't wake at predictable times in the night, which is what LO does in that he wakes every two hours generally so maybe reflux isn't the issue?
Last night started off badly but after I fed earlier than planned at 10.30 he slept for 4 hours straight. I couldn't believe it and had to triple check the time on the clock!! He then woke every two hours roughly. Naps weren't great today. Don't know what happened this morning but he struggled to settle and I ended up bf to sleep for afternoon nap. It's sleep training for the afternoon nap tomorrow though :)
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Still waking every 2 hrs :-(( so we've done 5 nights of sleep training - I've done the night weaning and got him down to two feeds and working on going to one from tonight. Why aren't I seeing any improvement yet?
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Well done you, that's amazing progress. Every 2 hours I would still think something else is underlying here xx
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That's what I am worried about. It will be interesting to see if things change when he gets his next teeth through, which are oh so close. I will keep doing what I am doing in the meantime so at least I can tell the paediatricians I have tried. I don't think it's worth trying CCor wi/wo as half the time I feel I'm not doing anything to soothe him. He just rolls around his cot crying and doesn't seem to notice me :-(
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I understood that the reason refluxers might wake at regular times is because it is at certain points in the sleep cycle that they come into light sleep and become aware of the discomfort. Then instead of transitioning to the next sleep cycle they wake up fully.
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Well that's what I thought too and it makes sense. It was referring to pain experienced in the night in general but I agree with you that reflux, and probably any pain, is more likely to be felt when in light sleep.
Anyway, LO did a 5 hr stint last night!!! Amazing and I really hope we will have another good night tonight and it's not a random one off..
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Fingers crossed
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Wow that's a big improvement :D really hope you get more of those... :-*
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Yay, fx for you here too :-*
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Thanks all unfortunately it was a one off and the longest he managed was a 3 hr stint from 7.15-10.30 and a 3.5hr stint from 11.30-3. I'm happy as it is better than before but was hoping for more!! Will keep plugging away at the night weaning and sleep training as I'm doing it. Still want to drop one of the night feeds.
Im thinking that as we are making some slight progress it might be time to move him out of my bedroom into his own room. Do you think it's best to move him so his first sleep in his new room is the morning nap or when he goes down for the night?
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I would actually try the first morning nap. And the other one too. Then it won't be so foreign to him at BT and if he wakes up in the night?
Well done you for keeping with it, honestly you're doing amazing. Let us know how the move goes xx
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Thanks that sounds like a good idea. Not sure when we will move him - I was thinking this weekend as the cot will need to be disassembled as its too wide to fit through door. However, after last night I think a move might be on hold. Up at 10.30,12 and then 3-4.20 when he just couldn't get back off and went through periods of being quite awake to very upset. In the end he got so upset I fed him and he drifted off but woke briefly off and on for another 15 mins. Don't understand it :(
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How's the days looking now? Xx
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Yesterday looked like this
6.30 awake
10.10-10.40 asleep and I woke him as I didnt want him sleeping too long making the afternoon nap late.
1.30-3.00 first afternoon nap in ages where he hasnt cried alot and woken half way through.
6.25 asleep.
Today has been pretty much the same although he slept half an hour longer in the afternoon.
I am finding that he is struggling to go down for the morning nap over the last few days, and with what you said about A times, have decided to put him down for morning nap a little later although this means I have to wake him. I think if I let him sleep as long as he wanted in the morning and tried a short afternoon nap it might not work as he might struggle to go down again.
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This is great actually. Well done you finding the pm A time that works. You have got room to extend your day a little considering he's never really done 12hrs ONS has he?
So we could move that first nap just 15mins later for now and that should lengthen your day a little wdyt? xx
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Thanks, well it was your comment on his A times that made me think it was worth doing. And for the last few days his naps have been better and he is settling ok without me breastfeeding or rocking which is great! I can certainly work on moving the first nap back although the I don't know how well that will go as every night since Monday night he has been awake for up to 2 hours in the early hours. I have no idea why and last night I ended up feeding him three times to settle him which upset me as I was working hard on cutting down the feeding from 2 to 1. Just feel I'm going backwards with the progress :-(
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Oh (((hugs))) we can actually see massive improvements :) but it's so hard when something else seems to go backwards at the same time :-\ Just off the top of my head, I'd suspect either UT (especially if he's been having better naps now) and/or discomfort - do you medicate during the night at all if you think he's in discomfort? If he had meds at BT they'd have worn off by the early hours... If UT then what Kelly said about moving the first nap later a bit could help to push the day later - you may even find that if he can repeat the lovely long pm nap that he can then stretch his last A time further, wdyt?
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Since I last posted things have massively gone downhill. Night time has been awful last two nights with LO waking every hour or less, struggling to settle and when he does settle often waking crying after 10mins. He has been so hard to settle that I've been breastfeeding back to sleep both at night and for naps yesterday and today as the crying was that bad he was having awful reflux and almost choking :( I think he has a cold but it appears to be very minor and certainly isn't bothering him in the day when he is up so its a bit puzzling - you wouldn't think anything was wrong with him then, these top teeth aren't through still and are just below the gum so I expect that's not helping the reflux.
I've being giving him calpol before nap and at bedtimes but it seems to be having no effect. Going with ibuprofen tonight to see if that helps him.
This is rubbish - it's one step forwards twenty back again. On Friday I had been feeling so pleased we had made such great progress with the naps and not breastfeeding so much at night and when we are through this latest blip I'm going to have to start all over....
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Oh dear I 'm so sorry (((hugs))) I do hope those teeth cut through soon, they certainly can't be helping in themselves, let alone with the reflux :(
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Just thought I'd post an update. Things haven't been going great as LO went down with a virus last weekend and has been very poorly. This has affected his sleep and I've been up every night with him every hour since Sunday night :-( I've been feeding to sleep a lot at night again and for most naps as he can't settle himself and ends up crying which has only led to him getTing more uncomfortable and more upset.
We had our paediatric reflux review yesterday and to cut a long story short the Dr said that he doesn't believe the night wakings we have seen over the last few months are down to reflux now and are more bad habit caused by the reflux. He recommended we sleep train and he will see us again in a couple of months.
Not great but he was very sympathetic and I understand why he has come to that conclusion. We were seeing some improvement with sleep training so I plan to restart that once LO is better. I'm very down about it all and the lack of sleep has made me very tearful the last couple of days.
No teeth yet either despite being so close! LO is the slowest teether ever I'm sure :)
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Oh no I'm so sorry you've had this nasty virus to contend with on top of everything else :( Yes it sounds like the sleep training was going well so worth continuing with once he's better, but I do hope he's still on meds for reflux? I don't cope well with sleep deprivation, I get tearful too (((hugs))) you will get through this :-*
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Yes Dr said to continue on high dose of ranitidine for now as its doing him no harm and it covers all bases. If dr is right and NW are a bad habit how long do you think will take to crack it?
Thanks for your support and sticking with me I do appreciate it :)
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How's he feeling now hun? And how are you doing more to the point? xx
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Hi kellyjs he is much better now just got the night time cough to go. I'm thinking of starting up the sleep training tonight and seeing how it goes. Last night he was waking every 1.5-2 hrs so better than previous nights but this is the second night we have had a 2hr long NW and I'm worried it's going to be a new habit. Tbh I'm feeling pretty low as a consequence of lack of sleep but trying hard to look forward and be positive. Hope you and your little one are ok.
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Sleep deprivation is horrible :( Hope it goes better than you fear tonight, glad to hear he's well enough now for you to consider starting ST again. Keep us posted and don't forget to post your daytime routines too :-*
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dropping off some more hugs for today xx
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Thanks both that's very kind. We haven't started sleep training as LO has been unsettled particularly at bed time last few days which was unusual for him. Anyway that tooth we have been waiting ages for is now through. The second of the pair is close too so hopefully that will be through soon.
We moved him into his own room today and both his naps were fine and settling for bedtime wasn't too bad which was a relief. Im not expecting it to change anything but really needed to feel some progress in some way given he is ten months old this week. Also it will eliminate any issues that were there with him disturbing me and vice versa.
DH and I have been talking about sleep training and I think we have decided to start PU/PD later this week, given the paediatricians view of LOs reflux, and when I did do the shh pat thing a few weeks ago before the virus hit it wasn't really making a consistent and significant difference when I looked back at my diary. We also did this with DS1 which worked well and he was a reflux baby, so we feel comfortable with it...we just have to decide when to start...
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Ok, as long as thats what you feel comfortable with. You do know pu/pd can aggravate a LO's reflux so just keep it in mind.
Absolutely wonderful news about the transition to his own room went well. Yay! Can you keep a log of the day sleep for me and how the nights go with the ST? we were nearly on one nap with DD at this age and I have a feeling you might not be too far behind xx
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So glad that tooth is finally through :) hope its partner isn't far behind... And yay for the move, would be great if it did make a difference in you not disturbing each other so much - we can hope, anyway :)
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Well although lo was quite happy with the move he did disturb his older brother and given we are going to be st which involves crying we decided to move him back into our bedroom yesterday.
Last night was strange. He woke every hour..I managed to feed him just twice in line with what I want to do with night weaning and only twice was he crying so much I needed to do PU/Pd, which surprisingly didnt take too long. I mainly settled him in the cot by shh pat as I think im supposed to do that first.
I think the other tooth must be upsetting him as settling at BT most nights this week has been dreadful and he has kept waking up every 10-30 mins v upset. Ive been giving him calpol last couple of nights, which has helped a little but not eliminated the problem.
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Aw poor thing - I hate teething! I mean, those teeth do come in handy and all that, but the process isn't much fun, is it? I hadn't realised you were moving him in with older brother - we still haven't been brave enough to do that so our DD is still in with us at almost 20mo :P Teething's horrible here too...
Sounds like you did really well last night despite having all those wakings to contend with, you must be tired though :-\ Yes it sounds like you did just right, always start with shh pat if it helps (doesn't always at this age, but you could use a variation) and use PUPD if needed. Great to hear that it didn't take as long as you'd feared :)
Don't forget to post the day's EASY when you get the chance :-*
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I agree! I think it would be better if babies were born with teeth! ;)
No, sorry, LOs new bedroom is next door to his brothers..
Ok will post our routine over the weekend. I don't think the daytime is affecting his NWs but always useful to have your thoughts. I'm generally doing a short nap in the morning and waking him hen a longer nap in the afternoon as if I don't wake him the day gets quite long!
Second night of training went ok so hoping for some improvement soon :)
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Ok here is our routine. Most days are fairly similar...
6.45 awake
9.50-10.50 nap
3 - 4 nap
7.10 Asleep
Sometimes he will nap an extra half an hour in the afternoon.
What Awake time before BT is good for a 9-10 month old baby as I'm wondering if this is something I need to adjust now?
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Glad second night of st went ok, now was night 3?
I can't really give you A times for 9-10mo old as there's such a range, depending on their overall sleep needs and preference for long/short A times, as well as whether they're having a long first A time and long morning nap, or a slightly UT first nap in order to get a longer pm nap. Just wondered how you came to the routine you're on now? In particular how you decided on the second A time? Did he struggle to settle any earlier? It does seem quite a long second A to me, given that you're waking him from the morning nap, so I can't help wondering whether the 1/1.5h naps may actually be a bit OT - wdyt? On the other hand he may just be on the LSN side of things, in which case capping the morning nap a bit more might help you to bring the afternoon nap a bit earlier and also get it longer. Which in turn might help him get to BT a bit more restored and enable him to have better nights...maybe! I personally found with DS in particular that he needed a nice long pm nap and then a long A to BT, in order to have a decent night. Do you think yours might like that kind of rhythm? Or do you feel he prefers his longest A times in the morning? Just trying to come at this from different angles in the hope that we might stumble upon something that works :-*
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Hello!good questions :)
I found that if I didnt wake him from his morning nap The afternoon nap was starting to happen later and later as he seems to be able to do a good A time between naps now, which didn't fit well with me having to collect his brother from nursery and consequently LOs bedtime was getting later. I think Kellyjs suggested he was heading towards one nap and she sent me a link about the transition. From reading this I then decided to go short am nap long pm nap, as LO was also struggling to go down for his Pm nap after a long am nap.
It seems to suit him and it's been a few weeks since I let him sleep in the morning til he wakes or beyond 11am. It generally only happens after a very rough night or early wake up. I don't think I am brave enough to try it and then hope for a short pm nap.
But I was asking about a times as I'm wondering whether he would benefit from a longer a time before bedtime so it's interesting to hear that worked for your son. I was wondering if that might help him settle for bed better and with the nights.
Night 3 was ok. He woke alot after 3am though and I think his teeth were making him uncomfortable. I stuck to my plan and only fed twice, moving feeds later each night, and did the shhh pat on him all other times. I'm worried that I might be shh'ing him for too long but it's hard to see in the dark when he is going to sleep so I need to be careful on that.
How long should it take for this training to work? I think I read in Tracey's book it could be two weeks but when I was looking again today couldn't see that...
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Grr to those teeth!
I wasn't very brave when making changes to nap routines, so could only ever bring myself to shave 5mins off that morning nap at a time, but if you're thinking a longer A to BT could help, you might feel braver than I did and make a bigger jump :P Just bear in mind that after a shorter morning nap he'll need a shorter A, which could bring the afternoon nap forward quite a bit.
I really wish I could say how long this will take, I think you're doing incredibly well given all you've had to contend with, but really it will depend on all these other things, eg teething :-\ how about, rather than thinking about how long it will take to 'work', giving yourself a week or two and then looking for improvements. I think if you can see some progress, that will be the encouragement you need to keep going? :-*
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Thanks yes that's a good idea and I am keeping a diary. Anyway I don't think any improvement is going to happen in the next few days as LOs other too this just about to break through. He woke every hour last night! Hopefully once this is through I might get a decent shot at it. I was wondering if Daddy did the ST over one weekend, when things do settle with teeth, it might make things happen quicker?
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Ok I need help. I'm beginning to think I am doing something wrong....
For the second night in a row he has been waking every hour. The good news is that once he cries all I do (apart from the 2 times I have decided to feed him, soon to be one then none) is put my hand on him, say a couple of words and he rolls over and goes back to sleep. It happens quicker than it used to.
Now he does have a tooth almost through so it could be he is waking through discomfort although giving him ibuprofen before bed and during the night seems to make no difference.
I am wondering if I am becoming a prop? But then I'm doing what it says in the book to do. Perhaps I shouldn't touch him at all when he wakes and just go straight on to pick up put down?
Also at bedtime it takes him 20mins of crying before he drops off. This isn't a new thing, but I sit by the cot if he gets very upset and comfort him with shh pat if he will let me. If he isn't that upset I sit out of sight and leave the room when he has fallen asleep. Perhaps when he gets upset I should go to pick up put down? Is sitting by the cot making things worse?
Please help I'm worried we are going backwards :(
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(((Hugs))) actually that sounds great to me - I mean, I know it's not great to be woken every hour (!) but the fact that he's able to get back to sleep so quickly with so little input from you is brilliant :) and definitely progress, right? If he has a tooth about to cut he 's likely waking from discomfort, which could also explain the struggles to get to sleep at BT. Tbh it sounds to me like you're doing really well, it's minimal input from you and he's likely struggling with his sore gums so IMO probably just what he needs right now. Perhaps when those teeth are through and you know he's not in discomfort any more, you can start to reduce your input further. One way to do that would be to hang back a little longer before helping; another way would be to just say your words without any physical contact. And then it may come down to the daytime routine more than your methods for helping him resettle in the night - perhaps he's taking longer to settle at BT because he's UT and needs the last A time stretching, or else he's having too long an A time after just an hour's nap? How does it feel to you? How is he during the day - does he seem really tired or fairly well rested and happy? Did you try capping the morning nap a bit more, at all? I wouldn't bother picking up now unless he's really upset and won't calm any other way, it seems you're good at calming him in the cot so there'd be little point in doing that now. Sorry this is so rambled, not finding much time to come on here this week so it's all coming out in a jumble I'm afraid!
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Thanks trimbler really appreciate any advice. Well his tooth is through - but he has a stinking cold so another rough night and more rocking to sleep and feeding to sleep than I would have liked but he just couldn't settle as was uncomfortable. Then we had a 2.5hr long NW. Don't k kW why as he must have been shattered. Just hoping this will be short lived so we can get back on track and I can follow your suggestions!
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Oh no (((hugs))) poor him, poor all of you! Hope he gets better soon :-*
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Hi not posted in a while as no further forward really :-(
LO got rid of his cold at the end of last week and I started sleep training again in the day (as had been breastfeeding to sleep at naps) and night. He's not happy about the change at nap time but settling was getting easier and there was no change at night. However, last night he had a v high temperature and was crying loads so we both got little sleep. He seems wide awake today but I am not! I'm hoping as he is bright eyed this morning it's a minor thing again so we can carry on working on the nights.
I go back to work in 8 weeks so hope to see some improvement soon otherwise I'm going to be asleep at my desk most of the time!!
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Oh dear how frustrating, he always seems to be getting some illness or teething, doesn't he :-\ Well done on the ST, just stay consistent with it whenever you can :-* I do remember worrying loads about going back to work when DS was 11mo as his sleep wasn't great either, but somehow it seemed to fall into place right beforehand, so I really hope the same happens to you...otherwise, lots of coffee :-\ Which is actually what I'm doing right now :P
Don't forgot to keep posting your routine whenever you can, in case there are tweaks to be made which might help with the nights.
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I think you are right and coffee will be the way forward! ;D
Anyway I'm having some issues, for a change..
His settling for naps, bedtime and NWs is awful. He rolls around the cot crying and crying. Bedtime has always been an issue but for the NWs I could usually settle him in the cot without too much trouble now it's taking ages. Last night on one occasion it took an hour of crying befor I decided to feed him to sleep as he was getting more and more upset. I don't think he has anymore teeth coming through. He still has the tail end of a cold but it's not bothering him in the day soi don't think this is making him uncomfortable at night,but I could be wrong.
And he has started waking between 5-6 I.e an hour earlier than normal. This started last weekend.
At the moment the day looks like this
5.20 awake
9.10 - 10.30 sleep
2.10-3.10 sleep
7.10 asleep after 30mins crying which is pretty standard.
Generally NWs are still every 2 hrs and I was wondering whether I should try W2S as he is clearly in a bad habit and the settling I'm trying to do with him in the cot isn't working?
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(((Hugs))) I still can't help wondering whether he's in some discomfort at night? How do you feel about the reflux? Any foods he might be reacting to?
I also wondered where you're heading with the routine? Last time you posted it I think you were capping the morning nap to get a nice long pm nap? But the morning naps have got longer again now? Is that to help him catch up from the nights? Are you getting him up as soon as he wakes in the morning (eg 5:20) or letting him have calm time before getting him up? You may find that capping the morning nap actually helps him to sleep a bit later in the morning again. Do you fix that nap time? It used to be closer to 3h A, didn't it? I think I'd personally try fixing it at whatever time suits, but don't let him use it to catch up on his night sleep - let him do that during his afternoon nap, if he will. Can you try to go back to that routine you posted last week or whenever it was, don't worry if he wakes early, try to just keep him in his cot or even having a nurse but don't switch lights on etc and get up properly until the consistent time of your choosing, can't quite remember what it was before but it seemed good then. I still feel like if only he could get a longer pm nap, he might be able to make it to BT having had enough A time but without getting OT. Things just seemed to me to be working better during those days, before the most recent teething/cold episode? If he does manage to catch up like that and get back onto a more even keel, you may need to start capping that first nap a bit more, perhaps 45mins - maybe also then bringing the pm nap a little earlier so he's not OT for it, but the idea would be that he might then be more tired for it and sleep longer... Use EBT where necessary to avoid OT, too.
Maybe I'm way off track, but that kind of night time behaviour would tend to be a combination of OT and discomfort here :-\ which is also what we're going through now actually, so I'm sorry if I'm especially rambly - as you know all too well, it's hard to think when you haven't slept enough... :-*
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Oh dear I'm sorry to hear you have been having some disturbed nights too - hope you are soon through it :-*
You may be right about the discomfort and I'm wondering if he may be teething again. I can't see any inflamed gums although it's hard to get a good look but he has been pulling his ear and biting a lot in the last couple of days...and when he is rolling around in bed crying at each wake up he is often putting his hands in his mouth. I've given him ibuprofen before bed tonight so see if that helps him.
Yes sometimes I give him a longer morning nap if he wakes very early. If he wakes after 6.30am I have been capping the morning nap at 30 minutes which is one sleep cycle for him. When he wakes early he is upset so I have been bringing him into bed and giving him a feed in the hope he drops off again but invariably he has his milk and then is all smiles and we sit quietly in the dark until 6am ish when I put a low light on and change his nappy.
What you put about not letting him catch up on sleep with a longer morning nap, keeping it short instead and bringing the afternoon nap forward might be worth a go. He seems to be able to do a 4hr A time quite comfortably now so that may work out.
Thanks again for all your help. I do appreciate it :)
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Aw poor thing, yes that does sound like it could be teething - yet again :-\
Have a try at keeping that first nap short, then, and maybe go for the pm nap a touch earlier than you normally would with a 'nice' WU and 30min first nap, but I don't think you'll want to bring it too much earlier, idk, perhaps 15mins earlier or something? Since he'll have had that quiet time before 'officially' getting up, and you still want him to be tired enough to take a really good long nap. What's your usual routine with a 30min am nap?
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Ok I am baffled. Sunday night was AMAZING with just 3 wake ups. Felt like a new woman yesterday ;D Then last night, absolutely awful again :( We had a similar routine both days...albeit Sunday was a busier day seeing friends so maybe LO was more tired by BT.
Sunday
5.45 Awake
9-10 (woken)
2.15-3.15
7.10 Asleep
NWs at 11.30, 3, 4 and 5 awake for day.
Monday
5 am Awake
9.20-10.20 (woken)
2.35-3.10 woke crying so bf to resettle then slept 3.15-3.45 (woken)
7.15 Asleep
NWs at 8.30, 9.30, 10, 12, 2, 3-3.30, 4.40, 5.40
I tried to keep a similar pattern yesterday to that of Sunday given Sunday night was so good. I wonder though looking at it now if the first A time was too long for him and then he was OT? I have just put him down for morning nap today with a shorter A time so see how we go. I just cant work it out how one night was great and the next rubbish. There is also the long running problem of him waking more frequently after 2am. Its like he has had enough sleep at that point so we have UT WUs?
In answer to your question this is an example of how a day looks with a 30 min capped am nap, which I only did once last week..seems I generally capped it after 1 hour so he was woken up about 10.30ish.
6.10 Awake
10-10.30
2.30-3.05 woke crying. bf to resettle then 3.25-3.55
7.10 Asleep
NWs 9.30, 11.40-12, 3.30 -4 then roughly every half an hour til 5.45
With him waking around 5.30 in the past couple of weeks Im not sure I want to do a 30 min capped nap as it will move the pm nap too far forward and give him a long A time before BT. I cant really bring BT forward by more than half an hour as I have DS1 to collect from nursery and sort...so think i will keep it capped at an hour and give that a go.
The odd good nights we have had over the past 2 months just seem to happen randomly as looking back through the diary I keep I cant see any clues as to whether he likes a short first A, long middle A or short A time before BT. I just dont understand how it can be so random, albeit all the teeth and illness we have had the past couple of months has thrown things about.
Im wondering if his BT needs to be later so he is more tired? He is 10.5 months old now.
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Oh dear it's so tough isn't it :-\ Looking at Sunday, he had a 14h day so that may have contributed to the OT. I'd actually hope that with a shorter first nap and bringing the pm nap a bit earlier, he may sleep longer for that nap, so he'd wake up from the nap around he same time but more refreshed, because it was longer, iyswim? I realise it does feel like rather a gamble, though. Just looking at that day you posted with the 30min am nap, I suspect that 4h A time afterwards was a bit long for him, hence the 35min WU crying. I'd hesitate to move BT later with WU so early, tbh?
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Yeh you have a good point about Bt. Tbh I've been looking back through the sleep diary I have kept for months and I have come to the conclusion that his poor Night sleep is nothing to do with daytime routine give its been going on for 6 months I tried various things in the day.
We have only had three decent nights with 3 wake ups in 60 days :(. I've been doing this sleep training continuously for almost 2 weeks now and have seen no improvement yet, and I just don't know what else to try.
I think I might have to reluctantly give controlled crying a go which OH had suggested we do at Easter when he is off work if no improvement before then. I just don't know anymore :(
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Hugs lovely, just popping on to offer some support. You know we don't support CC and I think you know in your heart it's not a magic fix :-* please don't go that route, we can help you through this :)
It strikes me that this is now a super-long thread and I imagine that things have moved on somewhat from the original post, in age if not in sleep improvement. You've had fab advice from Trimbler all the way along but I'm wondering if it might help to have a few different sets of eyes on your situation?
Could you start up a new thread (let me know if you need help) and just summarise for us briefly how old LO is now, what a typical day looks like, how LO settles to sleep currently (rocking, patting, you being in the room etc etc) and what kind of sleep training you have been trying? I haven't read your whole thread but my gut instinct - and I had a tricky sleeper in DS - is that you have some sort of combination of chronic OT and a hidden prop or two, plus possibly some sort of discomfort. Sometimes just stepping back and seeing where you are now rather than where you were a month or two ago can bring things to light that you hadn't considered :)
I'll look out for your post x
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Thanks Katherine, that sounds like a good idea - step back and look at things afresh :)
(((Hugs))) Atomic it's been a really rough ride, hasn't it, but we'll keep walking with you through this :-*
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Hi both. Thanks for your messages. I agree I do need to take a step back. In fact that's what I've been doing the last few days reviewing the sleep diary and my posts.
It's been 7 months now that I have had issues with LO and his NWs, which is a long time. It's started to affect my relationship with OH, my health (I now have a skin issue and am having to use steroid cream every day) and my memory (forgetting people's names, leaving my car keys in the car when parked). I'm often quite down with the situation and I've had a couple of instances where I've screamed at LO for not going to sleep, which is just awful. I also have to be in bed by 8.30pm so I can try and get enough sleep in, so I spend little time with OH when he is home from work and there is no chance of any evenings out and having a babysitter. We are just in limbo.
In short, with returning to work soon as well, the situation can't continue as its not in mine, or LOs interests. And things are not improving significantly with time.
Thankfully we seem to be back on track with naps. But I think now is the time for me to investigate other sleep training methods for the nights. Whether that be CC (which I'm not keen on) or gradual withdrawal, whatever...to see whether another method might help us.
Trimbler has been so wonderful in supporting and sticking by me, and I have really reallyappreciated it, but I think that there's no further advice she, or anyone, can offer with the nights now. I'm going to take a few days to read around other sleep training methods for the night, and in the meantime continue with what I have been doing, and see how I feel then :)
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Ok Hun, just know we are here and happy to support you with gentle methods that will respect that bond of trust between you and LO :-* look after yourself x